S03.E01: Sea Change

[CooperTV]

Quote

In the Season 3 premiere, Elizabeth asks President Dalton to risk change in an election year after a storm destroys a naval base in Bahrain, prompting the secretary of state to urge the commander-in-chief to reexamine his approach to climate change and his overall foreign policy. Meanwhile, Jose Campos works to bring Henry back into the DIA fold; and the McCords worry that Jason's laptop may have been hacked by a possible stalker.

Promo pics

[kwnyc]

Ready when you are, Madam Secretary! Sunday, SUNDAY, Sunday!

[MerBearHou]

So happy to see this show back!!  

[Guest]

Wow, I didn't see the loss and independent run coming at all. Crazy!

[secnarf]

Wow, I'm pretty impressed with the direction they took this plot in. Didn't see it coming, and it feels pretty original. Also, it's a creative way to have Bess 'accept' the VP nomination and still stay "Madam Secretary".

OTOH, I totally saw Henry getting mugged as he was blabbing on the phone to Elizabeth. I also wondered if the phone was bugged and/or if they're being followed.

[CheshireCat]

37 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Wow, I'm pretty impressed with the direction they took this plot in. Didn't see it coming, and it feels pretty original. Also, it's a creative way to have Bess 'accept' the VP nomination and still stay "Madam Secretary".

Agreed. On the other hand, was there any story-telling point in offering the position to Bess in the first place? Could they not have done this whole story without Dalton asking her? I don't mind that she stays Sec of State or anything, I'm just bothered by the fact that there seems to be no story-telling purpose to offer her the VP position in the first place other than to create a cliffhanger. (that I don't think they needed) And I really don't like when shows do that, especially that show because it's so brilliant otherwise. I kind of expected a story that makes the offer of VP relevant.

Edited October 3, 2016 by CheshireCat

[secnarf]

2 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

Agreed. On the other hand, was there any story-telling point in offering the position to Bess in the first place? Could they not have done this whole story without Dalton asking her? I don't mind that she stays Sec of State or anything, I'm just bothered by the fact that there seems to be no story-telling purpose to offer her the VP position in the first place other than to create a cliffhanger. (that I don't think they needed) And I really don't like when shows do that, especially that show because it's so brilliant otherwise. I kind of expected a story that makes the offer of VP relevant.

I think it's important to show how Dalton lost, and the pressure on Bess to stick with the party line. Dalton may have decided to follow Bess' lead on the climate change issue regardless of whether or not he wanted her as his VP, but I think when she came out and stated her position in the interview, he felt he had to make a choice - either follow her lead and keep her on the ticket, or stick with the party and pick somebody else. It would have been difficult to stick with the party and keep her on board. People don't typically pick running mates that go against their own positions, and this is actually where I thought the story was going to go - either she was going to say that she wouldn't be his running mate because she wouldn't support his policy, or he would refuse to pick her because she wouldn't support his policy.

It also may or may not become important in the hacking storyline.

[shapeshifter]

Glad the show is back with, IMO, a strong plot. 

Were we supposed to see all the first half of the show questions about Bess possibly being VP to be the result of a leak from her son's hacked webcam? Because, if so, they kind of dropped that story when they went to the kids getting stalked plot.

Edited October 3, 2016 by shapeshifter

[Netfoot]

Don't hold the cable until you get pulled into the drink!  Two turns around the bollard, just inches away!

Enjoyed the show, didn't see Dalton running as an Independent coming.  Probably because I didn't know you could do that.  I know we can do that, but...

Is the mugging/snatching of the laptop connected to prior the hacking?  Grabbing it before it gets to the FBI in order to protect the #4x0r's identity from discovery?  Either way, that's looking like it will be an enduring plot-line this season.

 

Thought Téa looked a little haggard at the start of the show, but she bounced back during the remainder.  Maybe it's because at the beginning, she was at the end of a tiring campaign for the nomination?

Once again, she needs to smack Russel Jackhole around the chops a few times.  I don't care how influential he is with the president, he can not talk to the Secretary of State that way and expect to get away with it.  Why does this show continue to permit him to do so?

[VinceW]

On 10/2/2016 at 11:09 PM, CheshireCat said:

Agreed. On the other hand, was there any story-telling point in offering the position to Bess in the first place? Could they not have done this whole story without Dalton asking her? I don't mind that she stays Sec of State or anything, I'm just bothered by the fact that there seems to be no story-telling purpose to offer her the VP position in the first place other than to create a cliffhanger. (that I don't think they needed) And I really don't like when shows do that, especially that show because it's so brilliant otherwise. I kind of expected a story that makes the offer of VP relevant.

I agree with your sentiment about the cliffhanger. It presents that the VP option was just a rope-a-dope to keep the audience engaged during the hiatus which was not unexpected on my part. (So much hype over Morgan Freeman returning for a 30 second token part). However, I didn’t allow that the decision would be forthcoming in the first 2 minutes of the episode (I had just tuned into the show after switching from watching football and I almost missed it). Russell was the only character who was making any sense in the first 30 minutes of the episode by keeping his usual pragmatic tone with Dalton. However, both Dalton and Bess were much too emotional and were showing an unusual liberal mindset in their conversations.  Russell was just responding to a bunch of SoS arrogance for the most part with Elizabeth. It seems that the Independent candidate theme is a weak attempt to piggyback on what happened during the real US Presidential primary season which included two unpopular and dysfunctional candidates running for high office from both major parties, but many voters looking for an alternative choice. The Independent scenario is just a fantasy story and it was annoying how the writers quickly diminished Elizabeth’s relevance as a viable VP choice. I look forward to the family stalking story and Jose working with Henry on new assignment. The election story not so much and enough with the climate change hoax.

Edited October 5, 2016 by VinceW

[bros402]

I'd like more of Chief Justice Morgan Freeman.

Mostly because he has an awesome voice.

[holly4755]

heh, I always thought this show was kind of Clinton propaganda to get people to think highly of the job she did, but this whole independent run seems more of what people were asking of Sanders, especially when you think of party lines as opposed to more liberal thinking. now I am confused, Guess I should not try and read real life into things. 

[Beden]

While I agree with the above posters about this being a creative and original (not to mention unexpected) plot twist about an independent run, my gut reaction was 'Oh god...I'm counting the seconds daily until the real campaign ends and we have a resolution to this endless mudslinging and attendant crap...and now months more on my favorite show.????"

Crikey.

[Notwisconsin]

They're REPUBLICANS. That was a plot twist I hadn't expected. So it's now a race between Mike Pence and Bernie Sanders. Jeez.

[Netfoot]

50 minutes ago, Beden said:

I'm counting the seconds daily until the real campaign ends and we have a resolution to this endless mudslinging and attendant crap...and now months more on my favorite show.????"

And (apparently) on my favorite forum.

[Guest]

I think we shouldn't try to draw too many parallels to real world politics or political positions.  It's a drama.

[secnarf]

3 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

They're REPUBLICANS. That was a plot twist I hadn't expected. So it's now a race between Mike Pence and Bernie Sanders. Jeez.

When did they say this? I totally missed it, but I do remember Elizabeth saying "the other party" at one point and thinking that they were going out of their way to deliberately not identify their party.

[kwnyc]

Actually, the long-shot strategy to get the election to be decided in the House is a steal from Veep. ;-)

[Notwisconsin]

2 hours ago, secnarf said:

When did they say this? I totally missed it, but I do remember Elizabeth saying "the other party" at one point and thinking that they were going out of their way to deliberately not identify their party.

the president loses the nomination because he acknowledges climate change. The Democrats ALL acknowledge climate change, and the Republicans mostly do NOT. Ipso facto they just HAVE to be Republicans. Then there's the billionaire with the no-bid contract....

[holly4755]

there are lots of billionaires with no bid contracts in both parties, so I would fall back on the climate change as the best argument, although I have to say, democrats are not doing much with climate change either and many are tied to the oil industry and will fight any changes.

I have read articles about the bases and rising tides. many bases, not only naval, are in coastal areas here and abroad so it is topical. 

[missbonnie]

Just stopped by to say that I liked the episode and I am happy the show is back. On a shallow note, I hate Elizabeth's hair like that and her clothes were awful last night. I always have serious wardrobe envy for her character but not last night. 

[shapeshifter]

25 minutes ago, missbonnie said:

Just stopped by to say that I liked the episode and I am happy the show is back. On a shallow note, I hate Elizabeth's hair like that and her clothes were awful last night. I always have serious wardrobe envy for her character but not last night. 

The wardrobe wasn't too bad, but there was a line in which she said she could skip hair grooming in order to meet with the guy from (I think) Tunisia. So I think the bad hair was supposed to emphasize how thin she was stretched being Secretary of State and secret VP running mate at the same time — which resolves in the last scene with her remaining as Sec. of State, and the congresswoman from PA being VP (to win that state, which is the other Prez hopeful's home state). So maybe next episode we'll see better hair.

[KaveDweller]

7 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

the president loses the nomination because he acknowledges climate change. The Democrats ALL acknowledge climate change, and the Republicans mostly do NOT. Ipso facto they just HAVE to be Republicans. Then there's the billionaire with the no-bid contract....

I was surprised by that too. When they were going on about not acknowledging climate change, I was wondering if they'd ever said their party before or if I'd just assumed they were Democrats because it's TV, and TV is usually liberal.  

I wasn't expecting the run as independent either. I was expecting that Elizabeth would get offered the job of secretary of state by the new guy, and we'd pretty much keep the same show with a new president. This will be interesting, and the issue of not getting to 270 electorates makes me think of Veep. Only a more serious version of Veep. I hope the election stays as a side storyline and we still get weekly stories.

It's really unrealistic though....when was the last time an independent got even 1 electorate? Wikipedia tells me 1968.

I was convinced that the news about Elizabeth being VP pick would get leaked by whoever hacked Jason's computer. The stalker storyline is creepier than I was expecting.

[NUguy514]

I loved the twist of Dalton running as an independent, even though I called it before it happened and even though I don't like that they've already ditched Elizabeth as the VP pick.

HOWEVER, I'm kind of an amateur expert on tropical meteorology, and two (related) things bothered me a LOT: there would never, ever, ever, EVER be a tropical cyclone hitting Bahrain.  Ever.  Bahrain is well into the Persian Gulf, into which no tropical cyclone has ever managed to penetrate.  The Persian Gulf is MUCH too small a body of water to sustain a cyclone; moreover, the atmosphere is much too dry to support the batches of thunderstorms required for cyclogenesis.  Similarly, the show referenced a similar "Storm of the Century" hitting Singapore; Singapore has been brushed by a tropical storm once, but that was a once-in-four-centuries occurrence.  Singapore really could not be hit by a major typhoon or similar "Storm of the Century"; the country sits at 1.3ºN latitude, too close to the equator to allow for cyclogenesis since the conservation of angular momentum (which causes cyclones to spin) doesn't apply at or very near the equator.

Yes, I'm a total nerd, but that felt really good to get off my chest!

[holly4755]

Thank you for adding that NU guy. I do believe that Singapore is an exceptionally vulnerable to rising tides since so much is low land.  I believe the airport is built on what was water. or am I confusing hong kong with it?

Impact of Climate Change on Singapore

Quote

Sea level rise

As a low-lying island, the rise in sea level poses the most immediate threat to Singapore. Much of our nation lies only 15 m above the mean sea level, with about 30% of our island being less than 5 m above the mean sea level.

low land,  storms not necessary for crisis. but there are lots of places that have been hit by storms that were abnormally bad recently, like Japan and the Philippines both where we have a number of bases. 

[Jlina]

With regards to wardrobe...Watching brought up a pressing question for me -  does  anyone really think that when you're at home after work you keep your work suit on when you're in bed at 10:30 or 11 or midnight?  it's always amazed me to see, Tom Selik does the same thing on Blue Bloods drinks his coffee or booze still in suit and tie.  Is it just to save a wardrobe change cost for the show, or are there any people that really do this....with unlimited dry cleaning costs maybe? I think they have shown her in sweats before....but still...first thing I do is change clothes.  This makes me feel like a slacker, although I agree she usually has great clothes.

 

(Not quoting anyone below just having trouble typing on my tablet.)

On 10/3/2016 at 1:00 AM, VinceW said:

 

On 10/2/2016 at 10:09 PM, CheshireCat said:

 

 

[Hanahope]

I too had always thought the administration was democratic because I thought it was sortof based on Hillary.  But with the climate change story line, it sounded obvious that they were republicans.  And if the primary election was that close, why not go to the convention and contest it (like Sanders and the other republican candidates nearly did?).

So interesting with the whole independent idea.  I do think that had Ross Perot not initially abandoned his run when Bill Clinton first won, he could have won a few electoral votes and that would have made the election real interesting.

Do people really keep the camera lens not covered on their laptops except when they have to use it?  Heck, I've been covering that thing for years.  Phone too.  I don't trust anyone.

Do people who's family are high up in the government really walk along the road nonchalantly with a computer they know has been hacked, when they're going from the White House to the FBI?  I mean really.  Taxi dude.

[kwnyc]

I think in the world of the show, they are Demicans and Republicrats. They've never named the parties, and when Elizabeth is fighting with an elected official, sometimes it's across party lines, but that's not always the case.

The fact that a governor (of Pennsylvania, it seems) would contest for his party's nomination against a sitting president is also unusual. (Last time it happened for the Dems was Teddy Kennedy vs. Jimmy Carter, right?) and with the repubs, Reagan against Ford.

Also a little weak is that Delgado has "health issues" and we're through with primary season and Conrad didn't use Elizabeth as his VP for a boost.

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

Do people really keep the camera lens not covered on their laptops except when they have to use it?  Heck, I've been covering that thing for years.  Phone too.  I don't trust anyone.

Do people who's family are high up in the government really walk along the road nonchalantly with a computer they know has been hacked, when they're going from the White House to the FBI?  I mean really.  Taxi dude.

Plenty of people (myself included) don't feel it is necessary to cover it. If my mother was SoS maybe I would feel differently, but as it is right now, I don't feel the need to, especially since there is an indicator light to tell me when the camera is on. Besides, there's not much you can do about the microphone.

As to the Republican/Democrat issue, I feel like they have made a significant effort to be nonpartisan, and I don't think the climate change thing necessarily changes that. In the show's universe, it might be different than in real life. If this climate change issue made them Republican, then I think they would explicitly say that they're republican and stop with "our/my party", "the party I have supported since middle school", and "the other party". Also, I didn't realize climate change is a partisan issue in the US, so thanks to those who clarified that!

[holly4755]

I don't have a camera on my computer (desktop),  My phone lives in ,y purse,it must have personal issues with claustrophobia - the purse does not reveal much, it is dark and quiet in there.  My rarely used lap top is obsolete and I only use it to copy DVDs, is predates windows 7 and can not be protected from the internet so that is turned off. Still works though.  also the only thing that still has word included, so I do use it for snail mail. 

[Notwisconsin]

6 hours ago, kwnyc said:

The fact that a governor (of Pennsylvania, it seems) would contest for his party's nomination against a sitting president is also unusual. (Last time it happened for the Dems was Teddy Kennedy vs. Jimmy Carter, right?) and with the repubs, Reagan against Ford.

Also a little weak is that Delgado has "health issues" and we're through with primary season and Conrad didn't use Elizabeth as his VP for a boost.

No, it was Bush Sr. vs. Pat Buchanan in 1992. Two nobodies from nowhere whom nobody had heard of ran against Obama four years ago and each of them almost won themselves a primary. Their delegates weren't allowed to attend the convention.

[VinceW]

On 10/3/2016 at 2:13 PM, holly4755 said:

there are lots of billionaires with no bid contracts in both parties, so I would fall back on the climate change as the best argument, although I have to say, democrats are not doing much with climate change either and many are tied to the oil industry and will fight any changes.

I have read articles about the bases and rising tides. many bases, not only naval, are in coastal areas here and abroad so it is topical. 

Watching the show for two seasons, I never got the impression that Dalton was at all unpopular. The climate change generic is a very polarizing issue. It looks like the writers chose that particular cause only because it gave them a quick path to put Dalton at odds with his party and supporters in order to invoke the Independent candidate scenario which resolves the VP cliffhanger.  However, Dalton winning a second term as a third party candidate using the electoral vote process seems unrealistic even in the show world. Dalton is the incumbent which means he would waste all of his political capital running as a third party candidate.  During his remaining time in office, nobody from either party would be willing to work with him on anything, removing his ability to govern for the rest of his term. Both parties would have a vested interest in making him look as bad as possible. At this point, it doesn’t appear the election arc has been well thought out at all. There was little need for the VP cliffhanger if the writers had planned all along to dismiss her chances at running so quickly. In the end, Elizabeth declares that she prefers to keep the SoS position. The Jose Campos character was well received by the writers which explains his recurring role. His return might give Henry more possibilities than Elizabeth for growth. Why was Bess acting President in the season 2 premiere? The story could have been told without it and it was never relevant throughout the season. The same is true this time around. Was President Dalton asking Elizabeth to be his VP just a CBS network decision?

After watching the episode a second time, I felt that Elizabeth was responding only to the fact that warnings over sea level risings were ignored at the military sites because of crony capitalism ( an economic system characterized by close, mutually advantageous relationships between business leaders and government officials).  However, Bess later mentioned the “credible” scientist ideology that is solely based on human cause which means, in political speak, the redistribution of wealth.  Nobody denies that the climate changes. The debate persists over what causes the climate to change.  Pointing out that the oceans are rising or more cyclones are occurring only indicates that the climate might be changing, but it says nothing about what is causing the change. Sea levels are at most, rising regardless and completely independent of any human cause and at least, not happening at all. IMO.

Edited October 7, 2016 by VinceW

[Gladrags]

On 10/3/2016 at 9:12 PM, KaveDweller said:

It's really unrealistic though....when was the last time an independent got even 1 electorate? Wikipedia tells me 1968.

When was the last time a sitting president ran for re-nomination, but lost in the primaries? The idea of a sitting president running outside his/her own party as an independent is intriguing -- maybe not how it affects the secretary of state and a dramatic series centering on her, but in theory.

[secnarf]

59 minutes ago, Gladrags said:

When was the last time a sitting president ran for re-nomination, but lost in the primaries? The idea of a sitting president running outside his/her own party as an independent is intriguing -- maybe not how it affects the secretary of state and a dramatic series centering on her, but in theory.

http://www.npr.org/sections/politicaljunkie/2009/07/a_president_denied_renominatio.html

I might also add LBJ to this list. He just dropped out before he could actually lose the re-nomination. If he had been winning the primaries though, I really doubt he would have dropped out, so I could reasonably argue that he "lost in the primaries".

[candall]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 2:11 AM, NUguy514 said:

I loved the twist of Dalton running as an independent, even though I called it before it happened and even though I don't like that they've already ditched Elizabeth as the VP pick.

HOWEVER, I'm kind of an amateur expert on tropical meteorology, and two (related) things bothered me a LOT: there would never, ever, ever, EVER be a tropical cyclone hitting Bahrain.  Ever.  Bahrain is well into the Persian Gulf, into which no tropical cyclone has ever managed to penetrate.  The Persian Gulf is MUCH too small a body of water to sustain a cyclone; moreover, the atmosphere is much too dry to support the batches of thunderstorms required for cyclogenesis.  Similarly, the show referenced a similar "Storm of the Century" hitting Singapore; Singapore has been brushed by a tropical storm once, but that was a once-in-four-centuries occurrence.  Singapore really could not be hit by a major typhoon or similar "Storm of the Century"; the country sits at 1.3ºN latitude, too close to the equator to allow for cyclogenesis since the conservation of angular momentum (which causes cyclones to spin) doesn't apply at or very near the equator.

Yes, I'm a total nerd, but that felt really good to get off my chest!

That's what we're here for!

[mojito]

I never considered the party of the President, never gave thought to whom was more likely to acknowledge climate change, never considered that Elizabeth was based on Hillary Clinton. This show is fiction, and in fiction, I willingly suspend reality. There are two parties, and they're opposing parties. That's enough for me. And I hope in this world, an independent candidate can beat out the two other parties.

[Notwisconsin]

On 10/6/2016 at 11:42 PM, secnarf said:

http://www.npr.org/sections/politicaljunkie/2009/07/a_president_denied_renominatio.html

I might also add LBJ to this list. He just dropped out before he could actually lose the re-nomination. If he had been winning the primaries though, I really doubt he would have dropped out, so I could reasonably argue that he "lost in the primaries".

LBJ won the 1968 New Hampshire Primary, and a whole bunch of caucuses before he dropped out. He didn't win NH by "enough" so his poll numbers crashed in Wisconsin, and that's partly why he withdrew from the race. Harry Truman lost the New Hampshire primary in 1952, and he withdrew from the race a few days later. Both were running for third terms, and both are the only incumbents to lose their party's nomination during the 20th century.

Getting back to the show; all incumbents who had major challenges in the primary lost the general election, so an independent run by President Gilmore is doomed.

[buckboard]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

Getting back to the show; all incumbents who had major challenges in the primary lost the general election, so an independent run by President Gilmore is doomed.

This a drama, not a documentary.  

Who expected the president to decide to run as an independent to keep Madam Secretary as SoS?  Maybe the writers will come up with a way he'll win.   The GOP candidate dies before the election. The Washington Post comes up with damning recordings by the GOP candidate, the Independent candidates campaign clicking.... Who knows.  They haven't held the convention yet, have they, just the primaries?

[kwnyc]

We don't know if they've held the convention. What will/would be key is whether Conrad can keep his campaign organization together. How much of it will stick with him, and how much will stay with the Party?

But if he can screw with the electoral votes so hat no one gets the requisite number, I can see Russell in there brokering deals in the House to get Conrad the presidency. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

We don't know if they've held the convention. What will/would be key is whether Conrad can keep his campaign organization together. How much of it will stick with him, and how much will stay with the Party?

But if he can screw with the electoral votes so hat no one gets the requisite number, I can see Russell in there brokering deals in the House to get Conrad the presidency. 

No, I think they'd leave that to Professor Arm Candy Super Spy Pilot Deal Broker Extraordinaire.  He needs a new specialty this season. ;)

[secnarf]

15 minutes ago, deaja said:

No, I think they'd leave that to Professor Arm Candy Super Spy Pilot Deal Broker Extraordinaire.  He needs a new specialty this season. ;)

Of course they will.

 

I don't think they've held the convention yet. We saw Dalton lose in a specific primary that meant he no longer had enough delegates to win the nomination. He would have actually been at the convention had he lost the vote there, no? And isn't that why the other guy wanted to discuss Dalton's support/endorsement? That sort of thing is ideally sorted out before the convention, or at least, they have made initial attempts to sort it out. I doubt he would have waited until after the convention to initially approach Dalton, if the outcome was already known ahead of time.