S01.E03: Tahani Al-Jamil

[FurryFury]

I KNEW IT!

Ahem. I pretty much caught Jianyi (or whatever his name is) as another dude destined for the bad place quite early in the pilot, so I'm feeling kinda proud for my genre savvy. I didn't expect him to talk this way, though. But it makes sense that he'd need a reason to avoid talking. 

I'm really looking forward to learning his deal and if he had the same problems as Eleanor. (I also find the actor really attractive so I'm glad he got more important).

Overall, I liked the episode, and Janet is terrific. Tahani does get on my nerves, but this makes sense, considering this is exactly what Eleanor's thinking.

Another show with Kristen Bell where she's wearing a longer wig (or extensions) in the flashbacks! 

I think Eleanor and Chidi got a bit too many scenes in the first two episodes so I'm excited she's going to interact with Michael and Jianyi (I assume). It's not that I dislike Chidi, but their dynamic gets old quite soon. I kinda want him to talk to Tahani more, I think it could be fun. Wonder if her condescending manner would annoy him eventually or not.

Edited September 25, 2016 by FurryFury

[AuntiePam]

14 hours ago, Kromm said:

Put it this way. Michael is not God. But some higher power is necessary just for this all to be possible. If Michael is fallible, what does that say about this higher power?  About the system it's built?  Can a show with this premise simply be an expression that Heaven is real... but a crock?  Sure it could be, but how cheated would the audience feel if that was the case?

 

I wouldn't feel cheated.  A heaven where everything is perfect, where we have everything we want, would be boring as hell.  Perfection would be okay for a week or two, but for eternity?  People need a reason to get out of bed, something to strive for, things to fix, problems to solve.  Also, we're naturally imperfect, so give us a perfect place, we'll just mess it up. 

[Kromm]

19 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

I wouldn't feel cheated.  A heaven where everything is perfect, where we have everything we want, would be boring as hell.  Perfection would be okay for a week or two, but for eternity?  People need a reason to get out of bed, something to strive for, things to fix, problems to solve.  Also, we're naturally imperfect, so give us a perfect place, we'll just mess it up. 

I'm not talking about us proxying our feelings to if we'd feel cheated if we were them. I mean feeling cheated as viewers--that it wouldn't be a very clever or stimulating resolution for the show if it was just about Heaven being inefficient.

Now if we're changing the idea to say that the flaws are intentional, but this is still Heaven?  That's actually a far more complex idea,  but remember I was responding to this: 

Quote

But, my take is to just take it as it has been explained - that each religion with a heaven/hell construct sort of had the gist of things, but not exactly right in the details, and this is what happens to "good" people upon death.  Personally, I hope the show just sticks with that and doesn't reveal a hidden truth 

Maybe the part about this still being Heaven and that not being a lie would be true, but I definitely think lying to them and giving them problems to fix definitely counts as a hidden truth that the show would be revealing. Whereas if there WERE no hidden truth (and this would count as one), that's what I'd feel cheated by.

[AuntiePam]

43 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Now if we're changing the idea to say that the flaws are intentional, but this is still Heaven?  That's actually a far more complex idea,  but remember I was responding to this: 

 

I get'cha.  I think. 

I'd be fine either way.  We can have an imperfect heaven on purpose, because that's the way it should be -- it keeps the residents striving for something -- or a mistakenly imperfect heaven, which leaves us with a mystery to figure out, a problem to solve. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 24/09/2016 at 0:10 PM, cpcathy said:

Michael's use of "literally" was also correct, he's a celestial being, Chidi's manuscript "literally" taught him what a headache was since he'd never had one before.

Just realized, and surprised it took so long, that last time Mike Schur was involved with a show where there was a boss type person named Michael, it was Michael Scott. Maybe that could be another reference to a flaw in The Good Place. Or maybe Schur just likes his own name.

[Rinaldo]

Or it could just feel like a suitable name for a greeter in the afterlife, with echoes from Biblical precedent and all. (Though, as already noted, he is clearly nothing to do with the archangel Michael.) If I try to invent other names for the character, none seems as good as Michael.

[possibilities]

I wonder if Chidi/Tahani and Eleanor/Jianyi are the "real" soulmate pairings.

[FurryFury]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

I wonder if Chidi/Tahani and Eleanor/Jianyi are the "real" soulmate pairings.

That's possible, and the show is bound to play that up at some point, but I'm glad there is like zero romance right now, even if I am side-eyeing the whole soulmate stuff as ripe for deconstruction. Especially with some characters like Jianyu being essentially frauds. 

I do think, however, that Chidi and Eleanor have zero romantic chemistry and that's intentional. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by FurryFury

[topanga]

17 hours ago, Kromm said:

I'm not talking about us proxying our feelings to if we'd feel cheated if we were them. I mean feeling cheated as viewers--that it wouldn't be a very clever or stimulating resolution for the show if it was just about Heaven being inefficient.

Now if we're changing the idea to say that the flaws are intentional, but this is still Heaven?  That's actually a far more complex idea,  but remember I was responding to this: 

Maybe the part about this still being Heaven and that not being a lie would be true, but I definitely think lying to them and giving them problems to fix definitely counts as a hidden truth that the show would be revealing. Whereas if there WERE no hidden truth (and this would count as one), that's what I'd feel cheated by.

I hear ya. But from the beginning, Michael made it clear that The Good Place isn't the same as the Christian concept of Heaven, although The Bad Place with the screaming, eternal torment, and bears with two mouths, does sound a lot like Hell. 

So your theory about The Good Place still having problems that need to correcting sounds very plausible. I mean, look at Chidi. He's clearly supposed to be a good person who deserves to be there, but his life and academia and lack of real life experiences is presented as a problem. 

19 hours ago, FurryFury said:

Overall, I liked the episode, and Janet is terrific. Tahani does get on my nerves, but this makes sense, considering this is exactly what Eleanor's thinking.

Another show with Kristen Bell where she's wearing a longer wig (or extensions) in the flashbacks! 

I think Eleanor and Chidi got a bit too many scenes in the first two episodes so I'm excited she's going to interact with Michael and Jianyi (I assume). It's not that I dislike Chidi, but their dynamic gets old quite soon. I kinda want him to talk to Tahani more, I think it could be fun. Wonder if her condescending manner would annoy him eventually or not.

--Tahani is somewhat arrogant, isn't she? Amazed by her own brilliance? I think Eleanor called her condescending. In any event, despite devoting her life to philanthropy, she definitely lacks humility. 

--You're right with the Kristen Bell wig! I'd forgotten about her long-haired Veronica Mars flashbacks. 

--And to me, the strongest scenes are with Eleanor and Chidi. Maybe because those actors give the best performances (along with Janet). Any scene without one of the three--a scene with just Tahani, Michael, or Jiyani, for example, is much weaker, IMO. 

[Big Mother]

I have a weird question. Did all these people die young, horrible deaths? What about the people who lived long, full, beautiful lives? Did some of the people in THe Good Place die at age 98 but inhabit the bodies of young people?

[Whimsy]

2 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I have a weird question. Did all these people die young, horrible deaths? What about the people who lived long, full, beautiful lives? Did some of the people in THe Good Place die at age 98 but inhabit the bodies of young people?

I wonder this about Chidi, actually.  He said he spent 15 years writing his manuscript.  He seems awful young to have already spent that much time on something.  He could be a prodigy, though, too.

[AuntiePam]

3 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I have a weird question. Did all these people die young, horrible deaths? What about the people who lived long, full, beautiful lives? Did some of the people in THe Good Place die at age 98 but inhabit the bodies of young people?

Maybe the elderly -- and children -- are in their own neighborhoods.  Experts say that we're healthier, more "fulfilled", if we live in a mixed environment with people of all ages.  But a heaven with screeching little girls or cranky old farts bitching about tattoos and nose rings would be hell for some of us.

[snarktini]

Missed this one! The early two-fer threw me off. I did happen to see it on Thursday's lineup, but the DirecTV guide said it was a repeat of the Pilot. So I just figured they were repeating for more exposure, even though it was odd they'd repeat one but not both. It didn't occur to me they'd actually run 3 episodes in the first week anyway! They want to generate buzz, but in general I don't think shuffling scheduling is helpful especially so early.

Saturday they're rerunning all 4, as far as I can tell so I can catch it then without having to stream. Glad at least they're re-running so people can catch up. That shows they want it to succeed.

[cpcathy]

I saw the pilot and episode two being shown also on Friday.

[Jobiska]

My recording cut off at the very end.  She meets Jianyu, he tells her she doesn't belong there, then he starts to very rapidly explain how he doesn't either--and it cut off.  Did he say anything salient in his last few sentences/was there anything after that?

[shantown]

On 9/22/2016 at 10:33 PM, lordonia said:

There wasn't much. Jianyu did wrote the notes. When E confronts him:

J: You don't belong here. Admit it.

E: Okay, you're right. I don't belong here. Michael made a mistake. But I'm trying, dude. I'm really trying to be a good person and I think I'm changing for the better. So just please, please don't rat me out.

J: Don't worry, I won't.

E. [relieved sigh]

J: Because I'm not supposed to be here, either! I don't know how I got here, I have no idea what's going on and I am FREAKING OUT, homey! You gotta help me! I'm scared!

E: What?

The end.

 

2 hours ago, Jobiska said:

My recording cut off at the very end.  She meets Jianyu, he tells her she doesn't belong there, then he starts to very rapidly explain how he doesn't either--and it cut off.  Did he say anything salient in his last few sentences/was there anything after that?

It was the 6th post in this very thread!

[Jobiska]

3 hours ago, shantown said:

It was the 6th post in this very thread!

Now I'm embarrassed, because I do read the whole thread, but I must have been tired or something and totally missed it!  Durrrr!  Thanks for graciously repeating it!

[Lilac2000]

Someone upthread mentioned Tahani's voice reminded them of another British actor...is it Lucy Punch? Because that's who she reminds me of...the inflection, her tone and Lucy Punch tends to play very condescending. In a good way if that makes sense!

[Kromm]

14 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I have a weird question. Did all these people die young, horrible deaths? What about the people who lived long, full, beautiful lives? Did some of the people in THe Good Place die at age 98 but inhabit the bodies of young people?

It's a fairly standard "Heaven" trope that people's physical ages default to some ideal rather than the age they died. 

[calliope1975]

12 minutes ago, Lilac2000 said:

Someone upthread mentioned Tahani's voice reminded them of another British actor...is it Lucy Punch? Because that's who she reminds me of...the inflection, her tone and Lucy Punch tends to play very condescending. In a good way if that makes sense!

I said that in the cast thread. At first, I thought it was Lucy Punch with brown hair because I wasn't paying attention, but I think it might be the bemused condescension. Both actors do it so well. 

[bros402]

2 hours ago, Lilac2000 said:

Someone upthread mentioned Tahani's voice reminded them of another British actor...is it Lucy Punch? Because that's who she reminds me of...the inflection, her tone and Lucy Punch tends to play very condescending. In a good way if that makes sense!

That's who she reminded me of.

 

Do she and Lucy Punch have the same accent?

[Kromm]

10 minutes ago, bros402 said:

Do she and Lucy Punch have the same accent?

They're both really vaguely from the Western side of London, but different neighborhoods. It probably matters more what their parents sounded like and if they went to similar schools.

But... none of that really matters. Because a little YouTubing shows that what she's doing on the show isn't Jameela's real accent/speech mannerisms.

Here's what she actually sounds like:

[FurryFury]

On 27.09.2016 at 7:11 AM, Kromm said:

It's a fairly standard "Heaven" trope that people's physical ages default to some ideal rather than the age they died. 

Not sure that would work here - otherwise they'd probably be from different time eras as well, but it doesn't look like that here.

[Rinaldo]

This isn't a criticism of anyone here -- it's inherent in the situation -- but it's with shows like this that I sometimes regret the ubiquity and ease of online discussion of TV in our time. The Good Place is a clever, unique little show that undoubtedly has some surprises and twists in store; but by the time we get through discussing and anticipating and theorizing, there may be no turn it can take that hasn't already been suggested by someone. Again, it can't be helped, and it's nobody's fault. And I enjoy discussing and theorizing too! But I'm going to try to experiment with cutting myself off from this particular forum for a while, and see how it affects my experience of the series. I don't know; maybe I don't have the will power.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Rinaldo

[dcalley]

On 9/27/2016 at 0:11 AM, Kromm said:

It's a fairly standard "Heaven" trope that people's physical ages default to some ideal rather than the age they died. 

It's also standard Hollywood shit, especially for women. Let's have a 25-year-old portray this woman who is 40 in real life/in the book. Or 37 is too old to play the wife of this 55-year-old guy.

6 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

This isn't a criticism of anyone here -- it's inherent in the situation -- but it's with shows like this that I sometimes regret the ubiquity and ease of online discussion of TV in our time. The Good Place is a clever, unique little show that undoubtedly has some surprises and twists in store; but by the time we get through discussing and anticipating and theorizing, there may be no turn it can take that hasn't already been suggested by someone. Again, it can't be helped, and it's nobody's fault. And I enjoy discussing and theorizing too! But I'm going to try to experiment with cutting myself off from this particular forum for a while, and see how it affects my experience of the series. I don't know; maybe I don't have the will power.

I agree. I've kind of regretted reading some of the posts here (again, no criticism toward any posters!) because any twists will likely have already been brought up as possibilities.

[topanga]

5 minutes ago, dcalley said:

It's also standard Hollywood shit, especially for women. Let's have a 25-year-old portray this woman who is 40 in real life/in the book. Or 37 is too old to play the wife of this 55-year-old guy.

I agree. I've kind of regretted reading some of the posts here (again, no criticism toward any posters!) because any twists will likely have already been brought up as possibilities.

Is there a way to limit speculation on the episode thread? 

[atomationage]

25 minutes ago, topanga said:

Is there a way to limit speculation on the episode thread? 

Set up a speculation thread, and tell people to post their speculation there.   There seem to be many posts now that all the new shows are coming out.  I suspect this will die down in a little while.

[Kromm]

55 minutes ago, atomationage said:

Set up a speculation thread, and tell people to post their speculation there.   There seem to be many posts now that all the new shows are coming out.  I suspect this will die down in a little while.

Since it's not something we really need a mod to do, I created a Speculation Thread myself.

I also created a Spoilers thread as well (although that's likely to get used a lot less often). 

[scarynikki12]

If we need a thread and it doesn't yet exist, get it started.  That way we can keep each thread on topic.  Thanks Kromm.

[possibilities]

So we're not supposed to talk about things we see in an episode that strike us as strange? We have to pretend we buy the party line as stated by Michael, and limit our observations to conform to the idea that we think it all makes sense? We have to pretend we don't notice things, or that we can't think of any possible explanations if we do notice? This all feels really contrived to me.

I'm trying to think of what the thread would be like: shipper talk? comments on the scenery? people lining up around which characters are most annoying or cute?

It's entirely possible that all the speculation is wrong, that the show really is exactly what Michael says it is and that Eleanor and Chidi and Jianyu are correct that it's all a mistake. Many of us are finding that hard to believe, and I don't understand why we are supposed to hold back on sharing our reactions to the show, and pretend we don't think that, in discussing our reactions to events in a particular episode. Other shows allow us to react with skepticism to what we're seeing, and don't put those kinds of limits on the conversation.

You could have the same exposure to speculation around the watercooler at work. People watch a show with different filters, and I think it's unfair to limit the talk to only those who take it at face value and don't want anyone else to have an opinion.

[AuntiePam]

So far, the basis of the show seems to be the question "Where are they, really?"  I think most possibilities have been raised, so the speculation will naturally die down, as we spend more time with different characters. 

[topanga]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

So we're not supposed to talk about things we see in an episode that strike us as strange? We have to pretend we buy the party line as stated by Michael, and limit our observations to conform to the idea that we think it all makes sense? We have to pretend we don't notice things, or that we can't think of any possible explanations if we do notice? This all feels really contrived to me.

I'm trying to think of what the thread would be like: shipper talk? comments on the scenery? people lining up around which characters are most annoying or cute?

It's entirely possible that all the speculation is wrong, that the show really is exactly what Michael says it is and that Eleanor and Chidi and Jianyu are correct that it's all a mistake. Many of us are finding that hard to believe, and I don't understand why we are supposed to hold back on sharing our reactions to the show, and pretend we don't think that, in discussing our reactions to events in a particular episode. Other shows allow us to react with skepticism to what we're seeing, and don't put those kinds of limits on the conversation.

You could have the same exposure to speculation around the watercooler at work. People watch a show with different filters, and I think it's unfair to limit the talk to only those who take it at face value and don't want anyone else to have an opinion.

I don't think of it that way at all. It's one thing to make observations and react to an episode:  "Hmm. The Good Place isn't the same as heaven because it isn't perfect, people have flaws, etc." Or "Soul mates don't seem to have romantic chemistry." Or even to comment about something in an episode being confusing or not funny or not consistent with previous facts about the world it created. Or for one person to ask if Michael is God, and for other people to respond accordingly, based on what we've already learned from the show about Michael. 

IMO. it's  speculation to say, "I think everyone is in The Good Place by mistake. Look at Eleanor. Look at Jiyani." or "I think Eleanor is dreaming. She's not really dead but only in a coma after being knocked unconscious by the shopping carts." 

For me, the problem is that a lot of people in the forums are very smart and intuitive. Any their theories about a show often turn out to be correct. And for people like me who want to remain spoiler-free, when it turns out that Jake is the killer or it's all a dream or everyone is on Mars (I'm making all of that up, of course), the reveal can be a let-down because we were inadvertently spoiled. Trust me, it's happened to me plenty of times. So if I don't want to be spoiled, I stay away from Speculation threads. 

But it's not totally black and white. Occasionally there will be speculations on an episode thread. But I'm confident that if we ever veer too far into speculation land, the moderators will redirect us. 

[SmithW6079]

On 9/27/2016 at 0:11 AM, Kromm said:

It's a fairly standard "Heaven" trope that people's physical ages default to some ideal rather than the age they died. 

I seem to recall an old soap opera (don't remember which one) where the matriarch of the show was dreaming of her dead husband and talking to him in heaven. I think the husband had died young before the show even started, but the actor they got to play him was as old as the matriarch. I was depressed to think you keep aging in heaven.

[Whimsy]

21 hours ago, possibilities said:

So we're not supposed to talk about things we see in an episode that strike us as strange? We have to pretend we buy the party line as stated by Michael, and limit our observations to conform to the idea that we think it all makes sense? We have to pretend we don't notice things, or that we can't think of any possible explanations if we do notice? This all feels really contrived to me.

I'm trying to think of what the thread would be like: shipper talk? comments on the scenery? people lining up around which characters are most annoying or cute?

It's entirely possible that all the speculation is wrong, that the show really is exactly what Michael says it is and that Eleanor and Chidi and Jianyu are correct that it's all a mistake. Many of us are finding that hard to believe, and I don't understand why we are supposed to hold back on sharing our reactions to the show, and pretend we don't think that, in discussing our reactions to events in a particular episode. Other shows allow us to react with skepticism to what we're seeing, and don't put those kinds of limits on the conversation.

You could have the same exposure to speculation around the watercooler at work. People watch a show with different filters, and I think it's unfair to limit the talk to only those who take it at face value and don't want anyone else to have an opinion.

Not the mod for this show- so commenting more as myself and not as the mod- but you can totally talk about what you observe and notice for THAT EPISODE in the episode thread.  If you have a more overarching thought or speculation, then that needs to go in the Speculation thread. 

All observations that you're seeing within a certain episode it totally appropriate to make within the episode thread.  No pretending necessary. 

[aradia22]

Chidi looked very handsome in his professorial garb. Also, I got a laugh at his being like... everyone wants to be treated well. Actually, he was pretty funny this episode. His delivery is great. "Directional insanity" sounds like the kind of thing Sherri's character would have on Trial and Error.

"Fun fact Janet is me."

Ooh, love this new end of episode development. 

[QuantumMechanic]

On 9/25/2016 at 3:33 PM, AuntiePam said:

I wouldn't feel cheated.  A heaven where everything is perfect, where we have everything we want, would be boring as hell.  Perfection would be okay for a week or two, but for eternity?  People need a reason to get out of bed, something to strive for, things to fix, problems to solve.  

Who are you? Captain James T. Kirk? 🙂

Also, there was a classic “Twilight Zone” episode precisely on point with that.

[Virtual]

Definitely an out of nowhere moment at the end of the episode, considering what we had come to expect of the show and it’s characters to this point.

I enjoyed watching all of Janet’s persona changes as Michael was trying to make her seem more relaxed.