S05.E01: What I Did On My Summer Vacation And Other Stories

[Primetimer]

The girl who's going to be living in Brenda's room arrives with her tragic backstory -- but is Dylan's current degraded state even tragicker?

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[Primetimer]

Grew goatees; sulked at the bottom of a bottle about getting conned; you know, the usz.

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[AndySmith]

Welcome Val! Also, Brenda who?

I guess Andrea's hair this season is an improvement....?

Quote

RIP The Club Formerly Known As Prince

So Kelly and Donna feel floral maxi dresses you wear to a BBQ can also count as club wear? If they're doing this in LA, I can only imagine what they wear to nightclubs in Minnesota...

Quote

Getting-dressed stuff.

Does it really take that much effort to put on pants that big?

And while I like men with facial hair...no, Jason. Just no.

[Ions Earring]

i have to thank this show for convincing me to never grow a goatee.

[TeeVee329]

I dunno what the consensus on this is, but I actually always thought the way they introduced Valerie was really smart.  I think they played into the perception of what the audience was expecting from Valerie - she's basically Kelly from "Saved By the Bell", she's a total 180 from bitchy Brenda/Shannen Doherty, etc. - and then cue the pot smoking and shit talking to Ginger (!) in the final minute.

Or maybe I was just ready to welcome a bitchy bad girl into my young life. 

[AndySmith]

That was a nice bait and switch. As bitchy as Brenda could be, she was still a "good girl". We thought we were getting another nice brunette living at the Walsh house, and then a nice reveal in the final minutes that nope, Val wasn't replacing Brenda the way we thought she would.

[Earmuffs Mom]

I also thought the writers were messing with us, stringing the viewers along at the beginning about whether Brenda would be returning, but they definitely got their shade in at SD with Brandon's, "At this point we may never see her again - heh heh heh." 

I just returned from Houston after spending a week there on vacation with my husband's family.  It is hot AF there and rained everyday.  Not my idea of a great summer getaway, Donna.

[SoupThrower]

The music is so bad. Also the bait and switch would work on a lot of people if they didn't follow the gossip or watch the show like 15+ years later. Val is awesome. 

But seriously. How did Mark Damon get main credits? HOW?

[SoupThrower]

Jason had to have facial hair for something else, right? Cause that doesn't look good. Not gonna lie but David's hair while really, really bad, I kind of like. It is so iconic and so 90's that it is awesome. 

Donna's hair not so much.

lol David. Got crabs. 

[Klaw]

Still miss Brenda (even after 20+ years). The wrong twin was written off the show. ShanDo may have been a holy terror on set, but she brought it onscreen, as compared to that whiny, nasty, condescending little bitch boy Brandon. God, he really only has one tone doesn't he? Dick. 

Rancho Brok-O *dead*

Also, if Creeper Dylan standing in the light staring at Kelly so hard she can feel it and turns in the direction (presumably) of the lifeguard station, can she not SEE that there's some creeper staring at her from said lifeguard station???? so. many. questions. 

I love Val - what I hated was that Val was drop dead gorgeous (and as was stated earlier - best boob job in Hollywood especially when you compared it to Donna's Boobs of Doom) and they always made it seem like she (Val) was some hag compared to the supposedly oh-so-beautiful Kelly and Donna. It was just ridiculous. I know when we watch these shows we're supposed to suspend belief about what constitutes true beauty in service of the egos of the leading ladies, but c'mon. There was never any competition. 

I give Donna (the character) some slack about being pained about David. He's terrible, but he was her first love so I always kind of got why she stayed so hung up on him. Plus since she was the golden virgin, she could never employ the "get over him by getting under someone else" tactic to cure her heartbreak, so yea, as an advanced aged virginity loser myself (19 - YIKES!) I can relate.

I will say nothing about Andrea and Jesse and that damn baby storyline. The only time she gets a slight redemption IMHO when she 

Spoiler

starts stepping out on Jesse by boning that cheesy Dr. Peter. Ha!

[gemini22]

Okay, I've been waiting for Val to show up to post. I came across an interview one of the former producer/writers did with a fan site.

https://teendramawhore.com/2010/01/17/beverly-hills-90210-producer-talks-college-years-slams-new-90210/

It's not hyperlinking, but you can cut and paste.

Basically, what I found most interesting (and appalling) in the article was this response the producer/writer gives about when they told Brian Austin Green (BAG) that they had hired Tiffani Amber Thiessen (TAT). Apparently, BAG was furious to find out they'd hired her b/c they were seriously dating at the time and he knew that she'd have to do love scenes (most likely) with Perry and Priestly and it was well known they liked to "feel up" their female costars! The writer plays it off b/c both guys are "wonderful", but he says he has tons of outtakes showing them groping their costars before sexual harassment was a "watchword". Also, he mentions that the women didn't feel as though they could complain b/c it would lead to their dismissal. SO SICKENING.

There is also some other very interesting conversation about Brenda leaving and other behind the scenes gossip. This guy was only a writer during the college years.

Edited August 29, 2016 by gemini22

[vendredi3]

That hilarious baby burp must only be on the DVD version. I flew to Canada to watch the TVtropolis reruns, which still contain the original music, and there was no burp in that scene, just the baby spitting up. Either that or Canadian sensors deemed the burp too adult.

[trivianerd]

That London operator accent had me screaming "You're from Yonkers! Your last name is Bufamontese!" Classic rant from Monica from Friends shouting at HER answering machine at her friend Amanda's message (Jennifer Coolidge). Amanda put on the fakest British accent a la Madonna after moving to England. At least the operator was not dripping with smug.

[filmgirl]

I was 11 when this happened, so my memory could be fuzzy but I remember being VERY aware that Tiffani-Amber Thiessen was replacing Shannen. Like, Kelly Kapowski replacing Brenda Walsh was huge summertime gossip.

Pretty sure there was TV Guide, Entertainment Weekly and even like Seventeen magazine coverage on it. Maybe even the Teen Beat shit too. IIRC, they promoed the hell out of it too.

The fact that I was this aware of it probably says a lot about who I was then (and who I am now), but I'm pretty sure we all knew Brenda leaving for France was her last episode.

So I'm not sure why they did such a fake out for the opening. I do vividly remember watching the premiere and being scandalaized that Kelly Kapowski would smoke pot. 

I love Val. I hated what they ended up doing to the character but it was so fun to have a main cast member who just didn't give a fuck about the gang. 

Was I the only one who immediately shipped Dylan/Val because she was brunette and it was agreed Kelly was the worst? Because I do remember shipping them immediately. It's next episode that we get TAT's first sex scene right? 

[StatMom]

You guys, are you punking us with that burp? I totally thought it was Dave (or possibly Sarah) making commentary on the scene playing. That was a ridic sound effect. Maybe Rex is branching out into sound editing.

[WhosThatGirl]

I recall a TV guide that came right before this season aired where they had TIffani Amber T on the cover and news of her impending arrival was in it. I feel like viewers were aware.

[Tara Ariano]

4 hours ago, StatMom said:

You guys, are you punking us with that burp? I totally thought it was Dave (or possibly Sarah) making commentary on the scene playing. That was a ridic sound effect. Maybe Rex is branching out into sound editing.

It is really on the soundtrack.

[Dave in Chicago]

Tori's new hair = the Betty masks from bank-robbing cheerleader movie "Sugar & Spice".

[ShellSeeker]

My daughter ripped off some pretty impressive belches when she was a baby, but nothing like that. That was like they made a sound drop of Barney Gumble from the Simpsons and inserted it into the soundtrack. 

[kite-wombat]

I don't know if it's just that (as Tara once said...) "In my heart, it is always the 90s", but I ... still like the floral-ish (like... don't go Laura Ashley on me or anything) maxi-dress and combat boots.... 

But perhaps something is REALLY wrong with me, because I ... kinda like Dylan in that "Canadian tuxedo". Well, as long as it is in stills. I imagine rewatching him and his "O woe! I miss my Moneyz!" would ruin it for me. But livin' rough Dylan ... sort of? ... makes all those wrinkles make some sense. Since unlike Luke Perry, Dylan never worked on road crews, sleeping on the beach explains the extreme wrinklage. Some. 

 

VAL! While I'm sad about the end of the ShanDo years, I like a lot about Val. Revisiting this I'm thinking it's not necessarily that ShanDo left, not that Val is what replaced her, but that no-one else left. (Brandon? Move to DC and spread your "wisdom" among multiple task forces and think tanks? David? Go on tour with Babyface forever.) 

[MerBearStare]

7 hours ago, filmgirl said:

I was 11 when this happened, so my memory could be fuzzy but I remember being VERY aware that Tiffani-Amber Thiessen was replacing Shannen. Like, Kelly Kapowski replacing Brenda Walsh was huge summertime gossip.

Yeah, I was in 7th grade when season 5 originally aired and I definitely knew that Kelly Kapowski was joining the show. 

I'm interested to see how I'll react to Val as an adult now because I remember not liking her character when it originally aired because I was very earnest and didn't like how she could be shitty to the other "good" girls on the show. But as an adult I'm like, well the other girls on the show kind of suck, so...

And that burp was amazing. Burp 2016.

[MerBearStare]

Seeing Kelly's new shorter hair has got me wondering, is she the Samson of Beverly Hills, 90210? In seasons 1-4 when she has long hair, the character is awesome and snarky and flawed but lovable. Then she cuts her hair and starts with that stupid baby voice and becomes sanctimonious and self-righteous and judgmental. Apparently all of her awesomeness is contained in her hair and, if I recall correctly, she never has long hair again. RIP Brenda and fun Kelly.

[Pogojoco]

I did a little research, because I had vague recollection of this, but the new "Brenda" got a lot of press ahead of time for a few reasons. One- Doherty had gotten a tonne, so her replacement was going to be a story. Theissen was on Saved by the Bell (including the new "College Years" which I think aired the year before she was in 90210), so already a fixture in a bunch of teen mags (I saw pictures- I recalled her 'Teen cover and her YM cover from back in the day.) She was also dating Brian Austin Green, so a lot of the press was about the two of them and their triple names. (as mentioned above.) 

Here is a vintage and so bitchy interview with Tiffani from Sassy

[atlanticslide]

14 hours ago, TeeVee329 said:

I dunno what the consensus on this is, but I actually always thought the way they introduced Valerie was really smart.  I think they played into the perception of what the audience was expecting from Valerie - she's basically Kelly from "Saved By the Bell", she's a total 180 from bitchy Brenda/Shannen Doherty, etc. - and then cue the pot smoking and shit talking to Ginger (!) in the final minute.

Or maybe I was just ready to welcome a bitchy bad girl into my young life. 

Totally, I've always thought the same and really enjoyed that - she pretty came straight off of Saved by the Bell: The College Years (complete with the same short, bouncy haircut) and was Kelly Kapowski in that first episode, all smiley and over-the-top warm and friendly and sweetness and light and "I always dreamed it would be like this" vomit-inducing heartwarming (even though I loved Saved by the Bell, not gonna lie) - and then bam, lighting one up and calling everyone avocado-heads! I thought it was nicely done.

On the other hand, the whole stringing out whether or not Brenda was coming back crap at the beginning of the episode was just dumb, mostly because the writing is very coy and vague and the characters dance around explicitly stating who they're talking about... and then Brandon just casually spills it in the most anti-climactic way possible to David, of all people. It would've been much more effective if they'd done a big reveal with, say, Valerie coming out of baggage claim to meet them instead of Brenda or something.

Also, did Donna cut ties with Kelly and Brenda for the summer? Why doesn't she know that Brenda's staying in London? What happened to her simpering "you're my best friend"?

[AllyB]

6 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

I'm interested to see how I'll react to Val as an adult now because I remember not liking her character when it originally aired because I was very earnest and didn't like how she could be shitty to the other "good" girls on the show. But as an adult I'm like, well the other girls on the show kind of suck, so...

The thing is, how bad was she really. She smoked a bit of pot while in college and is a bit resentful of these other kids and their smugness in the months immediately following her father's suicide. I remember a scene where she calls around to Dylan to share her score of amazing scones with him! That's not a euphemism, she finds a bakery selling some delicious baked goods, buys extra and is innocent enough to refer to that as a score. She's not exactly out running down puppies for kicks. She just doesn't want to cow-tow to a bunch of kids who've forgotten how spoiled they are and while she clearly really, really likes Dylan (to the point where she risks her life for him) she's not willing to mope around, desperate for any bone of affection he might throw her like Kelly, and especially Brenda, were. 

[AndySmith]

Well, she did have sex with Ray while he was still with Donna, for one thing.

Of course, why was she resentful of the other kids to begin with? They were all mostly initially nice to her.

And I have to disagree, she was somewhat desperate for any bone of affection Dylan might throw her throughout the first half or so of the season. I mean, she went to Mexico for him and all that...

(Note, I say all of the above as someone who loved Val).

[helent]

18 hours ago, SoupThrower said:

 Not gonna lie but David's hair while really, really bad, I kind of like. It is so iconic and so 90's that it is awesome. 

It's very Peter Andre.

[Ions Earring]

20 hours ago, vendredi3 said:

That hilarious baby burp must only be on the DVD version. I flew to Canada to watch the TVtropolis reruns, which still contain the original music, and there was no burp in that scene, just the baby spitting up. Either that or Canadian sensors deemed the burp too adult.

maybe this is the special edition, with new effects to fit Darren's original vision?

[CurlyATX]

Val's character is really weird, especially after they ret-conned the crap out of her story.  But I'm going to go with the basic storyline that she was abused by her father and he did commit suicide.  Those are some big traumas- things that the kids of 90210 never had to deal with.  Add the fact that Abby ships her back to their old friends (who they haven't seen in years but Brenda was pen pals with). I can see how Val would be putting on a smiley cheery face on for everyone, but also inherently choosing things that self-sabotaged her.  Dylan being a prime example- he seemed to actively distain her but was willing to sleep with her and make her feel bad about herself.  Given that she was in an abusive situation, it makes sense that she sees sex in a different way.

Maybe deep down, Val was both jealous and irritated at the Hillster girls.  They didn't seem to have any "real" problems according to her and didn't appreciate how good of a life they had.  After all, Val wasn't wealthy at all and had to earn her money.

Plus, Kelly was being a bitch to her from the start... doesn't she blab about Val's back story? I always thought that was so mean and tacky.

[AndySmith]

Quote

Plus, Kelly was being a bitch to her from the start... doesn't she blab about Val's back story? I always thought that was so mean and tacky.

That might have been so Donna wouldn't say anything insensitive or ask any awkward questions during small talk. The only person I think she told was Donna.

In any case, I do think Kelly's intentions in that case were from a good place.

Edited August 30, 2016 by AndySmith

[Klaw]

Quote

Plus, Kelly was being a bitch to her from the start... doesn't she blab about Val's back story? I always thought that was so mean and tacky.

Quote

In any case, I do think Kelly's intentions in that case were from a good place.

Nah, I don't buy that Kelly had good intentions. Just her tone while telling Donna was so damn bitchy and "you didn't hear it from me but giiiiirrrrl..." It just seemed incredibly cold and her tone wasn't like, "she seems like an amazing girl, but she just had the worst experience ever." Or, IDK, how about you keep your mouth shut Kelly about someone else's trauma and let her tell it when and if she wants to? YMMV, but I always thought that her tone in that scene was off and very OOC for Kelly (who was supposed to be a psychology major and so compassionate). Then, she immediately gets bitchy and judgmental about Val's pot smoking and her hooking up with Dylan and Steve - uh Kelly, all the players were single adults mind you're own gotdamn business. Again, I felt it was a bit OOC given Kelly's history with people (e.g. raised by a recovering addict mother). I feel like she would've been like, "well, if I went through what she did, I'd be toking up and messing around too."

Ugh, this version of Kelly is just so obnoxious. 

I loved Val, too, I just wish they had made her truly not give a shit about fitting in with "the Gang." It would've been fun just having a straight up villain messing with them with No Fucks to Give. I liked that her closeness with Brandon always irritated Kelly and she could never break their bond. 

[TeeVee329]

I do think the early stuff with Dylan - that Valerie basically wanted to disappear from her own fucked-up life and into Brenda's, which she perceived as charmed (heh) - was an interesting way to go.

The early Val stuff where she's deceptive about her true nature is really fun and I agree with Sarah D. Bunting that TAT really nails it, which makes the show's attempt to duplicate that dynamic late in the show with stupid Gina all the more terrible IMO.

Edited August 30, 2016 by TeeVee329

[CurlyATX]

I can see both sides, but I tend to think it was gossipy.  This could just be me, but I feel like some things shouldn't be shared, even if you know it.  It was Val's secret to share.  Maybe she didn't want to be seen as "the girl who's dad killed himself". 

Also, Kelly wasn't exactly told about it.  She overheard because she happened to be there.  I think Jim and Cindy should have only told Brandon and told him to keep it quiet.  I know my parents would have kicked out my friends to tell me the news with a strict gag order.

I'm the same age as the gang, and most of the folks in college were some form of "Friends with Benefits" or just dating non-exclusively.  Unless Steve had specifically talked to Val about it, they can see anyone.  I think Kelly sort of hates her old self and therefore is extra bitchy to Val for being a free spirit and dating and enjoying sex.  I think later, Kelly makes some mean comment that Val has slept with everyone and finally Val bites back and reminds Kelly that she knows about SOD.

[benteen]

8 minutes ago, CurlyATX said:

I can see both sides, but I tend to think it was gossipy.  This could just be me, but I feel like some things shouldn't be shared, even if you know it.  It was Val's secret to share.  Maybe she didn't want to be seen as "the girl who's dad killed himself". 

Also, Kelly wasn't exactly told about it.  She overheard because she happened to be there.  I think Jim and Cindy should have only told Brandon and told him to keep it quiet.  I know my parents would have kicked out my friends to tell me the news with a strict gag order.

I'm the same age as the gang, and most of the folks in college were some form of "Friends with Benefits" or just dating non-exclusively.  Unless Steve had specifically talked to Val about it, they can see anyone.  I think Kelly sort of hates her old self and therefore is extra bitchy to Val for being a free spirit and dating and enjoying sex.  I think later, Kelly makes some mean comment that Val has slept with everyone and finally Val bites back and reminds Kelly that she knows about SOD.

I recall that and Kelly's answer to the SOD is "you don't know what you're talking about."  Yeah, Kelly, Valerie DID know what she was talking about.  Though I think Kelly did mentally acknowledge it later in the episode.  It was that awful episode with the nuns.

Edited August 30, 2016 by benteen

[Stowaway]

I did a little research, because I had vague recollection of this, but the new "Brenda" got a lot of press ahead of time for a few reasons. One- Doherty had gotten a tonne, so her replacement was going to be a story. Theissen was on Saved by the Bell (including the new "College Years" which I think aired the year before she was in 90210), so already a fixture in a bunch of teen mags (I saw pictures- I recalled her 'Teen cover and her YM cover from back in the day.) She was also dating Brian Austin Green, so a lot of the press was about the two of them and their triple names. (as mentioned above.) 

Here is a vintage and so bitchy interview with Tiffani from Sassy

Woah, I was expecting it to be an interview in which Tiffani is bitchy. Oh, no, it's an interview where the writer is bitchy. Like, insanely so. Is that what Sassy magazine was like?

[Cekrypton1]

As Sarah notes, Dylan's situation is well-deserved. It is the natural endpoint to all of his "college is just the man telling you what to learn" BS. There are billions of people on the planet without wealth, who have all learned to get by. Yet remove the money from Dylan and he is about as useful and resourceful as Onnn-drea's baby. Poor little rich boy is not a good look for anyone, but even worse for Dylan "I'm a student of life" McKay.

[Cekrypton1]

As Sarah notes, Dylan's situation is well-deserved. It is the natural endpoint to all of his "college is just the man telling you what to learn" BS. There are billions of people on the planet without wealth, who have all learned to get by. Yet remove the money from Dylan and he is about as useful and resourceful as Onnn-drea's baby. Poor little rich boy is not a good look for anyone, but even worse for Dylan "I'm a student of life" McKay.

Meant to add: I initially thought the burp was Dave interrupting (sorry Dave) and laughed even harder when I realized it was the baby.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Stowaway said:

Woah, I was expecting it to be an interview in which Tiffani is bitchy. Oh, no, it's an interview where the writer is bitchy. Like, insanely so. Is that what Sassy magazine was like?

Definitely agree with you on the writer.

This part of the interview made me laugh though...

Quote

She says that Brian's music is more important than his acting and she can see him going completely into it. He's even working on his own album. "He's really good. People are going to be shocked to see what comes out of him. It's very different from what he's doing on the showÑit's a little more expressive, with a harder edge."

It's a good thing BAG stuck with acting...

[Cekrypton1]

Okay, I've been waiting for Val to show up to post. I came across an interview one of the former producer/writers did with a fan site.

https://teendramawhore.com/2010/01/17/beverly-hills-90210-producer-talks-college-years-slams-new-90210/

It's not hyperlinking, but you can cut and paste.

Basically, what I found most interesting (and appalling) in the article was this response the producer/writer gives about when they told Brian Austin Green (BAG) that they had hired Tiffani Amber Thiessen (TAT). Apparently, BAG was furious to find out they'd hired her b/c they were seriously dating at the time and he knew that she'd have to do love scenes (most likely) with Perry and Priestly and it was well known they liked to "feel up" their female costars! The writer plays it off b/c both guys are "wonderful", but he says he has tons of outtakes showing them groping their costars before sexual harassment was a "watchword". Also, he mentions that the women didn't feel as though they could complain b/c it would lead to their dismissal. SO SICKENING.

There is also some other very interesting conversation about Brenda leaving and other behind the scenes gossip. This guy was only a writer during the college years.

That is one barn-burner of an interview.

[CurlyATX]

That article was really mean-spirited. I never read Sassy but my best friend did and it was sort of an alt-girl magazine. I was always more of a Teen or Young Miss (YM).  And I remember when Tiffani won the Great Model Search (she actually tied with another Tiffany/i).  I was so shocked to then find her on Saved By the Bell. 

Granted this is all conjecture, but I've watched a few of the Dinners at Tiffani's and she seems to be a very down-home person and very sweet. 

As for the "gorgeousness" of Donna/Kelly vs Val.  That is just ego stroking at its best.  It's crazy how every guy who ever met Kelly or Donna fell in love instantly.  I hated how the writers made it like anyone was with Val because she was easy, except David who shared her dark side.

[AllyB]

10 hours ago, AndySmith said:

And I have to disagree, she was somewhat desperate for any bone of affection Dylan might throw her throughout the first half or so of the season. I mean, she went to Mexico for him and all that...

I meant more after his post-Mexico treatment of her. She risked her life for him and he treated her like crap in return but as far as I remember she was more or less done with trying to please him from then on.

And yup, sleeping with Ray was a crappy thing to do. But she wasn't the only cheater in the group so it hardly marked her as a terrible bad seed.

[profreader]

3 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Meant to add: I initially thought the burp was Dave interrupting (sorry Dave) and laughed even harder when I realized it was the baby.

I DID TOO - ! I had to rewind that part like five times and was laughing like a maniac. I like to imagine somewhere along the line some sound person who is working on these episodes is like, huh, what burps do we have in the sound effects library? BRAAAAP. Yeah, good enough.

[profreader]

David's hair just needs a couple of beady red glowing eyes and it's some kind of Lord of the Rings spiderbeast.

[benteen]

Heheh.

I remember the Howie Long cameo was cross-promotion as Fox had just got the television rights to the NFL that year.

[Jmallory]

I remember the summer right before season five, there was one of those MTV new break and it was announced that Tiffani was taking over the role of Brenda. I remember talking about it at the time. Of course we later found out they developed a whole new character. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

That might have been so Donna wouldn't say anything insensitive or ask any awkward questions during small talk. The only person I think she told was Donna.

I don't know how much that matters.  It's such a deeply personal thing to blab about that Kelly should have known enough to keep her mouth shut.

Quote

And yup, sleeping with Ray was a crappy thing to do. But she wasn't the only cheater in the group so it hardly marked her as a terrible bad seed.

I don't think the issue was really about the cheating.  It was more about Valerie hurting Donna, someone who had been kind to her, for no real reason.  I mean, it's not like a relationship with Ray is ever going to be worth that. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by txhorns79

[John Ramos]

"Just me, Ohndrea's baby, and Eudora Welty." (@Tara Ariano @David T. Cole)

[gemini22]

Quote

That is one barn-burner of an interview.

Cekrypton1, no kidding! That producer was so honest about what happened behind the scenes. Like Aaron Spelling firing that guy b/c he supposedly ant-semetic, or how irritated he was when Priestly insisted on The Cardigans performing when he had the Spice Girls. Also, about how the cast hated Shannen Doherty but the writers liked her b/c she always remembered her lines and never adlibbed.

Good interview!

Edited August 31, 2016 by gemini22

[SoupThrower]

9 hours ago, AllyB said:

I meant more after his post-Mexico treatment of her. She risked her life for him and he treated her like crap in return but as far as I remember she was more or less done with trying to please him from then on.

And yup, sleeping with Ray was a crappy thing to do. But she wasn't the only cheater in the group so it hardly marked her as a terrible bad seed.

 

Oh that she was hated by everyone when she was dating Dylan on the side when she was with Steve. But no one batted any eyelid when Donna did it at the same time and did it again. I think Brandon pointed that out that Donna was playing two guys against each other. 

I mean watching back I think the only two characters that really cared about Valerie were Brandon (probably learned his lesson for being an absolute dick to Brenda) & David and both would call out Kelly throughout the show. Kelly was the worst.

13 hours ago, benteen said:

I recall that and Kelly's answer to the SOD is "you don't know what you're talking about."  Yeah, Kelly, Valerie DID know what she was talking about.  Though I think Kelly did mentally acknowledge it later in the episode.  It was that awful episode with the nuns.

Donna praying that episode will always haunt my dreams. 

So re-watching that episode and a few things I noticed

- Kelly has a SNES

- Cindy seemed really disappointed that David didn't go to the barbeque. Don't know why Carol played it like that. I dunno.

- How did Dylan get up that vantage point to spy on Kelly?

[SoupThrower]

19 hours ago, helent said:

It's very Peter Andre.

That it is. It doesn't last long though. I think he gets rid of the hairstyle plus the earrings halfway through the season. He looked like an actual college student. It was scary.