All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, Randomosity said:

• Regarding the ending, I 'get' what we're supposed to interpret with the parallels of Jess/Logan to Luke/Christopher. But ugh. I was never #teamanyone, so I may well go on with the head canon that the kid is either Paul's or that Rory signed up as as a surrogate for Paris' company to get some cash while working on the book. Is it what happened? No, but I'm going to stomp my feet and refuse to accept Logan. Even Jess as the father would be a better option.

I thought that maybe, this revival would either end Logan/Rory for good, or have them get together. This...just kept them stuck in an endless loop where they'll never be rid of each other and all their choices now will be about the kid. It'll feel like their possible reunion will be for the wrong reasons. ASP actually made the Logan/Rory relationship WORSE with this revival. 

I'm with Milo on this one: is Jess really on Team Rory? Because he shouldn't be.

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, fruittree36 said:

Aside from apparently needing to forget S7, I think my biggest pet peeve with the revival is ASP and DP's treatment of thirtysomethings. They even created the "thirtysomething gang," who all live at home and apparently still need their parents to review their resumes.

A lot of the the show's ancillary characters are played strictly as stereotypical jokes, realism or kindness or understanding be damned.

I was only a casual viewer of the show when it originally aired, but wasn't Christoper always present in Rory's life when we knew her? I remember her talking about him with Lorelai and to him on the phone. He let her down a lot, but it's not like she was never in contact with him.

[pennben]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Characterizing ASP's adherence to the characters as she originally conceived them--in a revival she was asked to do on the very premise that she would do it as she had intended--as a "hissy fit" is very unfair in my opinion.

I agree with this. I also agree that AS-P had the right to finish her story the way she wanted. I expected her to do this, and essentially ignore S7, from the time the revival was announced.  

As with the run of the series, for better and worse (at times), this was always her story. 

I really enjoyed the revival and am now perfectly content with the conclusion here without having to see any new episodes. I know many saw this as a 'cliff-hanger', but it worked as an ending to the story of the series for me. 

Of course I'd watch new episodes, but there is a sense of completeness now that was lacking before. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm with Milo on this one: is Jess really on Team Rory? Because he shouldn't be.

I don't think Jess has any intention of pursuing Rory romantically. With the exception of the Summer chat, which he seemed to have deliberately kept very brief, he pretty much avoided her in the revival. When it became clear that Rory and Lorelai were going to stay in the house the night before the wedding in Fall, Jess quickly cleared out to crash with TJ and Liz and barely spoke to Rory. As far as he knew Rory was single, but he expressed no interest in her; he didn't even mention Rory to Luke during their conversation in the diner. Given the hot mess that Rory is in the revival, and also given the fact that in Season 6 Rory tried to sleep with him to get back at Logan, I'm guessing that Jess decided long ago that he needs to steer clear of Rory for his own sanity, and really, who could blame him?

With all that said, Jess is still hung up on Rory as far as I can tell. So I guess the answer to whether Jess is on Team Rory is "Kind of...?"

Edited November 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[Randomosity]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm guessing that Jess decided long ago that he needs to steer clear of Rory for his own sanity, and really, who could blame him?

(Just playing devil's advocate)

...like when Luke 'steered clear' of Lorelai by dating/marrying Nicole?

[gator12]

2 hours ago, starri said:

Can someone remind me of what the circumstances were behind ASP's departure from the show?  She left of her own volition, she wasn't fired, right?  Was it just because CW was pressuring her to make changes that she wasn't comfortable with?

From what I understand, she wasn't fired. CW wanted to sign her own for one more season and she wanted a two years contract until Season 8. Most of the cast only had one more season left on their contract.

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, gator12 said:

From what I understand, she wasn't fired. CW wanted to sign her own for one more season and she wanted a two years contract until Season 8. Most of the cast only had one more season left on their contract.

Here's an article from Amy and Daniel themselves explaining the reason for their departure.

But yeah, you're essentially right! They wanted a two year contract for not just the show, but for themselves. Along with other demands like more writers and a staff director that they couldn't get. 

They also knew exactly how they wanted the show to end, which I assume is almost exactly what we got. 

[Taryn74]

23 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

the fact that Jess is still pining for her even though she doesn't seem to feel the same----maybe she'd be more interested in him if he were engaged or married to someone else, haha---

This made me laugh harder than it should have.

 

18 hours ago, starri said:

And given my professed hatred of the townies, this is an odd question, but where the hell was Morey?  I don't remember Babette even mentioning him.

He was in the BWR theater, grilling sausages with Babette while Kirk reminded everyone about no outside food, just as chill as he always was.  Love Morey.

 

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

With all that said, Jess is still hung up on Rory as far as I can tell. So I guess the answer to whether Jess is on Team Rory is "Kind of...?"

I don't know, thinking back on it I think Jess is aware he is only hung up on the Rory he used to know, and his longing glance through the window was more of a "wish you were the one I thought I knew" rather than him still wishing he could pursue a relationship with her.  The main reason I think that is, if he wants to pursue a relationship with her, exactly what is stopping him?  It's not like she's so settled in such a great life that he would feel bad about messing that up, and he's a full decade past being the angry high school dropout.

 

I can't get the quote about S7 characters vs. Revival characters to work, but I don't really give a flying fig if S7 was not the direction ASP would have taken them, the fact of the matter is, S7 is CANON.  It's not like we're upset that she didn't take characters in the direction of a certain fanfic or something.  If she wanted to bring the characters back to the vision she had of them, fine, but she doesn't have the right to completely ignore what is canon.  She could have cut a full 10 minutes of that dumbass musical and spent that time giving us some sort of explanation how the characters got from Point A to Point B.

[pennben]

I guess I see the situation as there are two canons: a) the show as aired canon through S7 and b) AS-P canon of the show. I was glad to see the revival be AS-P canon and the story she wanted to tell, she was 6/7ths of the way there and I wanted to see how she would tie it all up.

I know others disagree, and that's as it should be and will always be:)

Edited November 26, 2016 by pennben

[WatchrTina]

Well, the revival prompted me to start re-watching season 1.  Golly, I had forgotten how much I liked this show.  The episode when Mr. Medina (Max) asks Lorelei out and she has to stand him up because Morey & Babbett's cat, Cinnamon, dies and they put on a wake?  Comic genius that made me tear up too in a couple of places.  I had completely forgotten that odd house with the low-slung doorways that poor Morey had to duck under.  That had to have been a real house -- who could make that stuff up?  Loved this show.

I also found it very interesting that Lorelei and Luke's smoldering attraction is right there in the first couple of episodes when you go looking for it.  That being said -- I LOVED Max as a love-interest for Lorelei.  What a fun ride this show was.

[LeafontheWind]

8 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I don't know, thinking back on it I think Jess is aware he is only hung up on the Rory he used to know, and his longing glance through the window was more of a "wish you were the one I thought I knew" rather than him still wishing he could pursue a relationship with her.  The main reason I think that is, if he wants to pursue a relationship with her, exactly what is stopping him?  It's not like she's so settled in such a great life that he would feel bad about messing that up, and he's a full decade past being the angry high school dropout.

I can't get the quote about S7 characters vs. Revival characters to work, but I don't really give a flying fig if S7 was not the direction ASP would have taken them, the fact of the matter is, S7 is CANON.  It's not like we're upset that she didn't take characters in the direction of a certain fanfic or something.  If she wanted to bring the characters back to the vision she had of them, fine, but she doesn't have the right to completely ignore what is canon.  She could have cut a full 10 minutes of that dumbass musical and spent that time giving us some sort of explanation how the characters got from Point A to Point B.

I love your first point here because that is how I ended the revival feeling about Rory. I expect people to grow and change, but I wish Rory's story ended somewhere other than the first steps of such a similar path to the one her mother took. I am a thirtysomething year old who was sheltered and bookish like Rory was in high school, but the comparisons pretty much end there now. I was actually a bit annoyed by the mocking tone taken towards the thirtysomething crowd, as if we are all aimless screw ups who inevitably end up relying on our parents to make decisions for us. Season 1-3 Rory would probably be so disappointed in where she ended up, but I guess that was the point ASP was making. Life never takes you where you wanted to go and we are all doomed to become our parents.

Your second point I agree with even more strongly. If we as the audience are truly to forget season 7 ever happened, then there were a lot of gaps to fill in here. If season 7 is just some glorified fanfic, how did Luke and Lorelai reconcile? The last we saw of Lorelai in season 6, she woke up naked in Christopher's bed. How did she find her way back to the place she and Luke started in Winter? Why should the journey Lorelai went through be assumed to be the same while Logan's be completely ignored? Which parts should I forget and which should I assume to have been ASP approved? I get that ASP wanted to do this revival her way, and to some extent I agree that she has a right to change the things she did not like. However, asking the audience to completely ignore some parts of the final season as fanfic while accepting other parts as canon is both confusing and a sign of bad writing, IMO. She is allowed to do whatever she wants with her characters, but the audience is also allowed to dislike those choices, especially when they seem to be in such sharp contrast to the characters we last saw when watching the show.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Yeah, and she purposefully referenced the season 7 Chris/Lorelai marriage so clearly some of it was canon. She really should have sent out a memo or something.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, RoyRogersMcFreely said:

Yeah, and she purposefully referenced the season 7 Chris/Lorelai marriage so clearly some of it was canon. She really should have sent out a memo or something.

She definitely pick and chose what to include in the revival from the last season. There's the possibility that she chose the stories that she wold have done, such as Lane having her twin boys. I think she only made reference to the failed marriage because she could make a joke about it. There are moments she kind of had to accept, like Logan/Rory's breakup at the end of season 7, but that didn't seem to matter anyway since years had passed so it's easy to assume they might have split off for a time. 

I think it's perfectly in our right to criticize what she has chosen to do with season 7 in her canon universe. Clearly she disagreed with some of the major character progressions (Logan, Christopher and his relationship to Lorelai/Rory) which sucks, but we can't change it now. We can, however, hope for change IF they somehow do find a way to bring back the revival for a second year or season or whatever it would be called, because I fully believe ASP wants to keep going with the story. I think she wanted the last four words to conclude the OS and for a revival to happen to explore Rory's journey as a mother.

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

41 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Well, the revival prompted me to start re-watching season 1. 

I did too! Haha!

ASP also kept Lane and Zack's twins. Pretty sure that was season 7. It just seems to me ASP kept some things she wanted and ignored the rest. It doesn't shock me Logan could end up this way, season 7 or not. He just seemed like an ass to me.

[Lady Grump]

3 hours ago, starri said:

Perhaps I'm just saying this because I'm so disappointed both by the revival and by attempting to rewatch the show as a slightly more grown-up adult, but I wonder if perhaps part of the reason that she ignored it was less a tantrum against the show not going the way she wanted it to, but more because she's a shitty writer.  We have no idea how she could have adapted her original plans to serve the story she had wanted to tell, because she didn't even try.

Just ignoring continuity you don't like is comic book level writing.  And I say this as a comic book reader.

I'm right there with ya. After cringing through the revival, I was determined to figure out if it was ME who changed dramatically, or the show. So, I watched some episodes from Season 1. Turns out it was me that changed, because upon rewatch, I realized that the show was not nearly as witty as I remember. The formula: repeat words back verbatim, in an ironic way, and then either throw in a pop culture reference every 5th time, or some sort of silly anthropomorphizing. Not to say it was devoid of witty lines, but it wasn't the powerhouse of sarcasm I'd once thought. 

The two Loreleis are basically just a mother-daughter manic-pixie-dream-girl duo -- which, when younger, I found endearing; but now, in my advanced age, it just elicits advanced eye-rolling. Also, older me -- the one who has to deal with family finances -- is completely flummoxed at how Lorelei could afford that house, in that neighborhood! I think about it every time I see it! Come ON! That house would be, like, $2 million! And she had it before she started her own inn, on a motel manager's salary.

Also, the acting. Why didn't I not notice, before, that both LG or AB have a difficult time with it -- especially the "emotional" stuff?

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, Lady Grump said:

The two Loreleis are basically just a mother-daughter manic-pixie-dream-girl duo -- which, when younger, I found endearing; but now, in my advanced age, it just elicits advanced eye-rolling.

Gawd, yes. I was eye-rolling pretty hard during the original and didn't watch the last season, but I'd say that Lorelai was full-stop MPDG while Rory was much more down to earth. The only time she was manic was with her mother; she didn't act like that with Dean or at school.

That's one reason I liked Jess for her because their connection was more intellectual, bookish and non-manic. Dean cherished and protected Rory, but he also put her on a moonbeam pedestal.

Edited November 26, 2016 by lordonia

[starri]

2 hours ago, pennben said:

I guess I see the situation as there are two canons: a) the show as aired canon through S7 and b) AS-P canon of the show. I was glad to see the revival be AS-P canon and the story she wanted to tell, she was 6/7ths of the way there and I wanted to see how she would tie it all up.

Except, you know, people watched that seventh season.  A seventh season she could have been the one to steer, were it not for her taking her toys and going home.  No matter her appeals to artistic purity, the reality of the situation was she sold the show to Warner Bros to get it produced, and they had every right to do with it whatever they wanted.  If she wanted absolute control over the show, she either should have taken it to some place where they'd have given her a better contract or raised the money and financed it herself.

Truly good TV writers get restrictions from from somewhere, whether it's the network, or the budget, or what have you, and figure creative ways to tell the story they want to tell.  That's not how she chose to approach it.

And maybe even ignoring the seventh season would have been okay if she allowed herself to realize that if we're picking up her season six story a decade later, people don't stay frozen in amber for that entire time.  No one had evolved at all in her world, except, I guess, maybe Michel.

[Eyes High]

Someone on the GG Reddit observed that Rory's not the only one who wound up in the same situation as their parent:

Lane: raising her family in Stars Hollow, working in the antique shop

Paris: barely sees her children, kids prefer the nanny to her

Logan: careerist playboy who cheats on his partner

Dean: happily married with kids, saintly wife

Jess (counting Luke as the "parent"): grumpy loner pining for a Gilmore girl for years on end

Edited November 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[Frelling Tralk]

On 25/11/2016 at 11:56 PM, starri said:

Maybe it was just a question of the actors being available, but I can't help but think all of the musical stuff was time they could have used for Lane

I thought the exact same thing! I know that Lane wasn't always used a huge amount in the original series either, but you'd think that they could have found a little something for her to do, it felt like we got barely any updates on her life at all. The lack of plot for a regular character from the original show was even more glaring when they must have spend 15+ minutes on the 'comedy' with the musical. Honestly I thought that we could have had a little more of Mrs Kim too, she always cracked me up in the original show (and would generally have a surprising number of scenes for a non-regular), so I was surprised to only get one very brief scene with her in the revival, as again they certainly didn't seem like they were particularly pushed for time when it came to things like the musical sequences  

[Dean Learner]

Quote

The main reason I think that is, if he wants to pursue a relationship with her, exactly what is stopping him?  It's not like she's so settled in such a great life that he would feel bad about messing that up, and he's a full decade past being the angry high school dropout.

What's stopping him? Probably the knowledge that Rory once used him as a rebound, and he's pretty wary of getting involved with her again. More importantly he also knows she's not in a great place, and understands that Struggling!Rory is not a person he should be in a relationship with- for his own sake, as well as hers.

And while we can debate if his feeling are also romantic, he does care about her.  Jess would not want to "mess up" her life; unlike Logan-- who also cares for Rory but not enough to remove himself from their fucked up situation-- Jess seems pretty self-aware of his own weaknesses. Remember back in earlier seasons, he appeared to do some hard work on himself and his issues; he's probably better versed in self-help than any other character on the show!

I don't know if his look was one of love or longing or fondness or just nostalgia. And I don't think the Luke/Jess parallels are quite that clear cut- remember Jess yelling at Luke how he wasn't going to be a doormat, hoping one day the woman he loves finally wises up (ala Luke and Lorelai). Obviously the parallels are there, and the look was shown for a reason; but if there is more story told, and there is a Jess/Rory revival, it's going to be about Rory winning Jess, not the other way around.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Honestly, I don't know how someone could root for anyone to be with Rory at this point. You're basically rooting for a character you care about to eventually get cheated on. The only OTP for me is Rory/Therapist.

Edited November 27, 2016 by RoyRogersMcFreely

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, Dean Learner said:

I don't know if his look was one of love or longing or fondness or just nostalgia. And I don't think the Luke/Jess parallels are quite that clear cut- remember Jess yelling at Luke how he wasn't going to be a doormat, hoping one day the woman he loves finally wises up (ala Luke and Lorelai).

Isn't that exactly what happened to Jess, though? It seemed heavily implied that he's spent at least 10 years quietly pining over Rory without making even one move in her direction romantically, the same thing he chewed out Luke for doing with Lorelai. Jess is different from Luke in many ways, but in that respect at least the revival strongly suggested that they are exactly the same, and that just as Rory is doomed to relive one of her mother's more destructive patterns, so too did Jess relive one of his father figure's biggest mistakes.

Since a lot of the GG younger generation members wound up living their parents' lives, it seems fitting if tragic that Jess winds up with Luke's fate. I guess you could read it as karmic punishment for giving Luke shit about carrying a torch for Lorelai all those years ago, though.

Quote

More importantly he also knows she's not in a great place, and understands that Struggling!Rory is not a person he should be in a relationship with- for his own sake, as well as hers.

I don't know. Rory was so candid about her problems that I can see why Jess would see that she was not in a good place for a healthy adult relationship. However, the revival seems pretty clear that Jess didn't do anything about pursuing Rory romantically in the intervening 10 years before her life imploded so spectacularly, so I don't know that we can chalk up his reluctance to Rory's recent meltdown.

Quote

Jess seems pretty self-aware of his own weaknesses. Remember back in earlier seasons, he appeared to do some hard work on himself and his issues; he's probably better versed in self-help than any other character on the show!

Season 6+ Jess is one of the more mature characters on the show. Even in Season 6 in the episode where he met Logan, as disgusted as he was by Rory dating a douchebag and as irritated as he was by Logan's appalling behaviour, he made sure to set aside his own feelings and any sort of romantic agenda and try to get Rory to see reason about her own situation. Actually, that whole dialogue from Let Me Hear Your Balalaikas Ringing Out, in light of the strong parallels with Revival Logan contrasted unfavourably to Revival Jess, is worth a second look (and I put in italics the number of times Rory made excuses for Logan's behaviour, because damn, girl):

RORY: [Logan's] just in a bad way lately.

JESS: He's a jerk. 

RORY: He was. In there, definitely. I'm so sorry.

JESS: I read that guy the second I saw him. I should have begged off.

RORY: Well, I didn't want you to.

JESS: He better not come out here.

RORY: Please, Jess. He had a lot to drink. He's tired from travelling. This isn't him. I swear.

JESS: What the hell is going on?

RORY: I told you. He's tired, and his family's bugging him right now.

JESS: No, no. I mean with you. What's going on with you?

RORY: What do you mean?

JESS: You know what I mean. I know you better than anyone. This isn't you.

RORY: I don't know.

JESS: What are you doing? Living at your grandparents' place, being in the DAR, no Yale...why did you drop out of Yale?!

RORY: It's complicated.

JESS: It's not! It's not complicated.

RORY: You don't know.

JESS: This isn't you. This, you going out with this jerk, with the Porsche. We made fun of guys like this.

RORY: You caught him on a bad night.

JESS: This isn't about him. Okay, screw him. What's going on with you? This isn't you, Rory. You know it isn't. What's going on?

RORY: I don't know. I don't know.
 

In light of the revival, the Goofus/Gallant vibe of Logan vs. Jess in Let Me Hear Your Balalaikas ringing out seems a lot more obvious, I think. There also seems to be a parallel between Jess insisting on finding out what was going on with Rory to Jess bugging Luke in Fall to open up to him about his problems.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[Dean Learner]

Quote

Isn't that exactly what happened to Jess, though? It seemed heavily implied that he's spent at least 10 years quietly pining over Rory without making even one move in her direction romantically.. 

Quote

However, the revival seems pretty clear that Jess didn't do anything about pursuing Rory romantically in the intervening 10 years before her life imploded so spectacularly, so I don't know that we can chalk up his reluctance to Rory's recent meltdown.

See I did not get the impression that Jess has been actively pining over Rory for the last 9+ years. I'd like to think he's been in Philly, had relationships, career struggles, the usual living-life stuff*. Just because we aren't privy to it doesn't mean he or any of the other characters have been in cryo for the last decade.

Rory mentions it's been four years since they last saw one another; considering their familial situation, wouldn't that suggest that if Jess was truly interested, even if in a distant way, that they could've had opportunities to reconnect sooner? I guess I just don't see Jess as that passive a character.

I think it was proximity to Rory, being with his family (Luke) again, and later, the wedding, that stirred up feelings that he had set aside a long time ago. And once he met again with Rory, and heard her pitiful tales of woe, warning bells went off- he knows what happens when Rory spirals down. So it became a head/heart struggle, and come wedding time when they couldn't help but be around each other, he did the healthy thing of remove himself from Lorelai and Luke's house until time to go back to Philly.

*Due to limited screen time (and possible sequel planning) Jess's storyline feels particularly truncated and unfinished; I wished we'd gotten a bit more sketched out about him because what we're left with is pretty unsatisfying.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Dean Learner

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Dean Learner said:

Quote

The main reason I think that is, if he wants to pursue a relationship with her, exactly what is stopping him?  It's not like she's so settled in such a great life that he would feel bad about messing that up, and he's a full decade past being the angry high school dropout.

What's stopping him? Probably the knowledge that Rory once used him as a rebound, and he's pretty wary of getting involved with her again. More importantly he also knows she's not in a great place, and understands that Struggling!Rory is not a person he should be in a relationship with- for his own sake, as well as hers.

That's kind of my point, though.  I don't think Jess was pining over Rory at all, because (to me, at least) pining implies that a person wishes they could pursue someone romantically, but for whatever reason that person is out of their league so they just admire from afar.  There is nothing about either Rory's life or Jess' life anymore that would put her on a level above him, so if he really wanted to pursue a relationship with her I don't see why he wouldn't just do it.  The fact that he didn't, indicates to me he's not pining.

[Nilo]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

 

JESS: You know what I mean. I know you better than anyone. This isn't you.

RORY: I don't know.

JESS: What are you doing? Living at your grandparents' place, being in the DAR, no Yale...why did you drop out of Yale?!

RORY: It's complicated.

JESS: It's not! It's not complicated.

RORY: You don't know.

JESS: This isn't you. This, you going out with this jerk, with the Porsche. We made fun of guys like this.

RORY: You caught him on a bad night.

JESS: This isn't about him. Okay, screw him. What's going on with you? This isn't you, Rory. You know it isn't. What's going on?

RORY: I don't know. I don't know.
 

Such a good episode to quote.  I feel like for the last few seasons of the original show and now AYITL Rory is shown making choices that has some viewers - or other characters in the show - saying, "This is so unlike her."

And I'm so confused by that because, again, since the end of Season 4, she has continuously acted impulsively and without consideration for who might be impacted by her actions.  In the words of Maya Angelou, "when someone shows you who they are, believe them."   I'm not saying people can't make mistakes, but to continue a pattern of affairs (when the other person is unaware) is not a mistake, it is a lifestyle choice.  I don't know if Odette and Logan have a Vegas relationship, but it seemed fairly clear that Paul did not consider his relationship with Rory to be an open one, and that "relationship" lasted three years.

And that's just her pattern with men.  While I get being at a crossroads in your professional career, I was sad that she seemed "too good" to hustle.  Maybe she will write the great American novel, but it would have been nice to see her asking Luke if she could pick up some hours at the diner.  Or the Dragonfly.  In the year we saw, she earned nothing, and while she seemed sad about losing her career, we weren't shown any impact from that.

[WatchrTina]

Well, I just finished binge-watching season 1.  That reminded me that Rory's great-grandmother intended to set up a trust fund for her that she could come into possession of at 25.  That at least makes her jet-setting life-style in the miniseries somewhat more plausible.  (I also assumed that her flights to London were being underwritten by Logan and/or the crazy British lady whose autobiography she was working one.)  A $250,000 trust fund isn't enough to live off of for the rest of one's life (not if there are regular trans-atlantic flights involved) but if she's also not paying rent anywhere, has no student loan burden to deal with (color me jealous), has had some paying gigs over the years, and her grandfather left her some money, it starts to make her bizarro life-style in the mini-series somewhat plausible (barely.)

Gosh that first season was good.  The will-Luke-and-Lorelie end up together undercurrent is a bit annoying (especially knowing that there are six more seasons of that to get through) but seriously -- I had forgotten how much I loved this show.  I'd say my weekends between now and the end of the year are completely shot.

Edited November 27, 2016 by WatchrTina

[starri]

10 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

A $250,000 trust fund isn't enough to live off of for the rest of one's life (not if there are regular trans-atlantic flights involved) but if she's also not paying rent anywhere, has no student loan burden to deal with (color me jealous), has had some paying gigs over the years, and her grandfather left her some money, it starts to make her bizarro life-style in the mini-series somewhat plausible (barely.)

But she was broke.  A quarter of a million dollars is a lot to blow through in ten years when she doesn't have any expenses besides rent and day to day stuff.  No car payment, no student loans, no mortgage.  She might not have been able to live off it exclusively, but presumably she'd written more than the Talk of the Town piece.

[CalamityBoPeep]

10 hours ago, Dean Learner said:

See I did not get the impression that Jess has been actively pining over Rory for the last 9+ years. I'd like to think he's been in Philly, had relationships, career struggles, the usual living-life stuff*. Just because we aren't privy to it doesn't mean he or any of the other characters have been in cryo for the last decade.

Rory mentions it's been four years since they last saw one another; considering their familial situation, wouldn't that suggest that if Jess was truly interested, even if in a distant way, that they could've had opportunities to reconnect sooner? I guess I just don't see Jess as that passive a character.

I think it was proximity to Rory, being with his family (Luke) again, and later, the wedding, that stirred up feelings that he had set aside a long time ago. And once he met again with Rory, and heard her pitiful tales of woe, warning bells went off- he knows what happens when Rory spirals down. So it became a head/heart struggle, and come wedding time when they couldn't help but be around each other, he did the healthy thing of remove himself from Lorelai and Luke's house until time to go back to Philly.

*Due to limited screen time (and possible sequel planning) Jess's storyline feels particularly truncated and unfinished; I wished we'd gotten a bit more sketched out about him because what we're left with is pretty unsatisfying.

Right there with you. I don't think Jess spent the last 9 years pining, either. And it fits with his character, as established in Season 4. He said he would never hang around like a puppy, waiting for the woman he loved to notice him. He didn't do that. He went away when she said "No." He made his life, did his thing, learned about himself and grew as a person. He continued building his relationship with the one person he really could count on, Luke; made peace with Liz and TJ; learned to deal with Lorelai in a healthy manner.

Then Luke was getting married, asked Jess if he was over Rory, and boom... it hit Jess like a ton of bricks. In that moment, it all came flooding back, and he looked shell-shocked. But I do think his head will guide his heart. Even as he realizes some of the feelings are still there, long buried maybe, he will sort through them in his own time. And he'll take care of his heart. I don't think he'll "pine" even after noticing the rubble from the impact of Luke's question. He knows Rory's a mess. He'll go back to living the life he's designed for himself, and continue building on the good relationships he's established.

If Jess and Rory end up together, it'll probably be a series of inadvertent meetings... as she starts relying on Lorelai and Luke more (with the pregnancy, etc), and is physically present in Jess's sphere more. He'll see her more as he comes into town to visit Liz and Luke. And probably feel a little like he's getting caught in quicksand as Rory seeks him out for "friendship and advice." That's where it will get messy and become more "Luke and Lorelai" seeming. Part of Luke's difficulty over the early years, while he waited, had been the constant presence of Lorelai in his town and in his life. He probably could have avoided "pining" for her too, if she'd just stayed away from him, or him from her. But he had a diner, and she needed coffee... so he ended up being constantly pricked with the pain of "what could be". That hasn't been Jess's scenario, and probably won't be, until a theoretical Revival 2.0.

[WatchrTina]

Well, my re-watch of the series just came screaming to a halt.  I just saw the episode where Lorelei calls off the wedding to Max and goes off on an impromptu road-trip with Rory, ending up at cat-themed B&B followed by a visit to Harvard where they invade someone's dorm room and then crash a lecture.  Lorelei is REALLY unlikable in that episode (and the manufactured drama at the B&B of being terrified of being sucked into unwanted B&B activities is just too stupid for my taste).  I kept waiting to see the scene where Lorelei told Max the wedding was off.  It was never shown.  We are left to imagine that she DID tell him but for all we know she just waited for the Miss Patty Star's Hollow gossip-line to let him know.  So annoying.  Yeah, I'm done with this re-watch now.  But season 1 was a fun binge.

I own "Firefly" on DVD (of course I do.)  I wonder if it is time for a Ron Glass memorial viewing of the series.  RIP Shepherd.

[SueB]

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Someone on the GG Reddit observed that Rory's not the only one who wound up in the same situation as their parent:

Lane: raising her family in Stars Hollow, working in the antique shop

Paris: barely sees her children, kids prefer the nanny to her

Logan: careerist playboy who cheats on his partner

Dean: happily married with kids, saintly wife

Jess (counting Luke as the "parent"): grumpy loner pining for a Gilmore girl for years on end

 

So ... Dean wins?  

J/K I think Lane is perfectly happy and I'm not sure Jess is pining.  

[Eyes High]

58 minutes ago, SueB said:

So ... Dean wins?  

Dean got to hear his ex wax nostalgic about how wonderful he is and how she didn't appreciate him...so, yes.

I think Lane is happy, at least as happy as the parent of twins can be (kidding!), but it can't be denied that the life she has now, with music being a hobby as opposed to a lifestyle, was not the life she had once wanted for herself. With that said, who gets the life they wanted for themselves in their teens? For all the post-Season 7 handwringing from the fandom about how cruel a fate it was for Lane to wind up a stay at home mom to twins conceived through terrible sex while her husband gets to live the rocker dream, Lane made out way better than Rory in the long run: a job, a devoted husband, a fulfilling hobby, cute children, the face of a woman 15 years younger? Her biggest complaint about her life is the fact that her husband just got a promotion; I'd say she did pretty well.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Dean got to hear his ex wax nostalgic about how wonderful he is and how she didn't appreciate him...so, yes.

I think Lane is happy, at least as happy as the parent of twins can be (kidding!), but it can't be denied that the life she has now, with music being a hobby as opposed to a lifestyle, was not the life she had once wanted for herself. With that said, who gets the life they wanted for themselves in their teens? For all the post-Season 7 handwringing from the fandom about how cruel a fate it was for Lane to wind up a stay at home mom to twins conceived through terrible sex while her husband gets to live the rocker dream, Lane made out way better than Rory in the long run: a job, a devoted husband, a fulfilling hobby, cute children, the face of a woman 15 years younger? Her biggest complaint about her life is the fact that her husband just got a promotion; I'd say she did pretty well.

 

ITA.  And MAN, does Keiko Agena win the gene lotto!

[Randomosity]

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That reminded me that Rory's great-grandmother intended to set up a trust fund for her that she could come into possession of at 25.

 

 

I thought the trust didn't pan out. Didn't Lorelai have a disastrous lunch/tea with Trix and Emily, thus causing Trix to rescind her offer? Then Lorelai tells Rory later that she just lost out on a quarter million dollars? Granted, I haven't watched season 1 in forever, but I'm almost positive that money did not happen.

That said, it's not like Rory couldn't have gotten a steady stream of money from any combination of Logan/Emily/Christopher.

[Taryn74]

38 minutes ago, Randomosity said:

 

I thought the trust didn't pan out. Didn't Lorelai have a disastrous lunch/tea with Trix and Emily, thus causing Trix to rescind her offer? Then Lorelai tells Rory later that she just lost out on a quarter million dollars? Granted, I haven't watched season 1 in forever, but I'm almost positive that money did not happen.

The trust fund was still there, all Gran did was rescind the offer to give the $$ to her early (to pay for Chilton).

[Frelling Tralk]

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I kept waiting to see the scene where Lorelei told Max the wedding was off.  It was never shown.  We are left to imagine that she DID tell him but for all we know she just waited for the Miss Patty Star's Hollow gossip-line to let him know.  So annoying.  Yeah, I'm done with this re-watch now.  But season 1 was a fun binge

I don't think that Lorelai ever does tell him does she? The impression I got was that she took off on the day of the wedding so that she could avoid having to actually have the painful conversation with Max, and then she waited a few days for it all to blow over before she returned to Stars Hollow. If she was planning on discussing it to Max's face, then she wouldn't have run away on the day of the wedding 

[WatchrTina]

Quote

The impression I got was that she took off on the day of the wedding

No, she took off before the wedding because when she goes to see her mother for Friday dinner after they get back, that is when she tells HER that the wedding is off.  It's all a bit weird because the bachelor/bachelorette parties had already happened and those usually happen just prior to the wedding so . . . it's confusing.  Definitely not their best episode (it brought my marathon to a screaming halt.)

[zxy556575]

The revival got me wondering how much more I might have liked the original show if had better actors.

Lauren is good and carries much of the load, except that she's never been convincing to me in any of her romantic relationships. She doesn't soften or be present in the moment; even her kisses seem overlaid with Lorelai's brittle, self-protective snark. It's also weird that she had more chemistry with Luke during the early seasons with their unspoken undercurrent of attraction.

Scott's acting is completely unsubtle and one-note.

Alexis is the worst, sorry to say. She memorizes, then pushes out her lines in a rush.

Everyone else in the cast, minor and major, was great, Kelly and Edward in particular. All the boyfriends of both Gilmores? Great. Townies and Rory's friends? Perfect. It's just the damned leads!

[Melancholy]

On the S1 discussion of whether Christopher loves Rory. I feel like his weak non-committal "She's pretty" at Rory's birth compared to Lorelai's whole hearted, "She's perfect" means something to say there's a deficit of love in Christopher's feelings for Rory. Especially contrasted with his "She's perfect" reaction to Gigi. It's not just flakiness and irresponsibility. Like canonically. I wouldn't make so much out of a 17 year old father not saying the right thing but for the fact that basically every Christopher/Rory interaction is practically a non-committal "She's pretty." He just doesn't connect with her at all over 7 seasons. There's guilt and longing and feeling sorry for himself and an admiration that she's a charming, lovely girl but never love. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

On 12/21/2016 at 2:50 PM, Melancholy said:

On the S1 discussion of whether Christopher loves Rory. I feel like his weak non-committal "She's pretty" at Rory's birth compared to Lorelai's whole hearted, "She's perfect" means something to say there's a deficit of love in Christopher's feelings for Rory. Especially contrasted with his "She's perfect" reaction to Gigi. It's not just flakiness and irresponsibility. Like canonically. I wouldn't make so much out of a 17 year old father not saying the right thing but for the fact that basically every Christopher/Rory interaction is practically a non-committal "She's pretty." He just doesn't connect with her at all over 7 seasons. There's guilt and longing and feeling sorry for himself and an admiration that she's a charming, lovely girl but never love. 

This is such an insightful analysis.

To add to it, he might have felt too intimidated by Lorelai and Rory's bond and being as weak as he is, didn't put much effort into having a stronger relationship with Rory.

I wish the show had focused a little on Rory's dysfunctional parenting and less on her romantic relationships. Say what you will about Lorelai as a mother, the way she raised Rory is abnormal. I am not saying it was good or bad, it was ... different. 

[dirtypop90]

I've never questioned christopher's love for rory but he just wasnt cut out to be a dad/family man. IMO His reaction to gigi was different because he was a 30 year old man by then. In season one, he mentioned to lorelai that rory may be his last kid. Not sure why he thought that. But I could by him being happy about getting another chance at being a father at age 30+. And even with Gigi he struggled because being a father just doesnt come naturally to him, but he had to get it together because he was all gigi had.

The problem IMO is that Amy for w/e reason  just didnt care for writing father/daughter relationships.  Richard financial supported Lorelai but he didn't "connect" with her anymore than Chris did Rory. IMO And we didnt see much of Chris and Gigi. And then there is Lane and Mr. Kim....yea...April and Luke had the only good father/daughter relationship on this show and they didnt meet until she was a pre-teen. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by dirtypop90

[Melancholy]

9 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I've never questioned christopher's love for rory but he just wasnt cut out to be a dad/family man. IMO His reaction to gigi was different because he was a 30 year old man by then. In season one, he mentioned to lorelai that rory may be his last kid. Not sure why he thought that. But I could by him being happy about getting another chance at being a father at age 30+. And even with Gigi he struggled because being a father just doesnt come naturally to him, but he had to get it together because he was all gigi had.

The problem IMO is that Amy for w/e reason  just didnt care for writing father/daughter relationships.  Richard financial supported Lorelai but he didn't "connect" with her anymore than Chris did Rory. IMO And we didnt see much of Chris and Gigi. And then there is Lane and Mr. Kim....yea...April and Luke had the only good father/daughter relationship on this show and they didnt meet until she was a pre-teen. 

Richard was an imperfect father and we didn't see Lorelai's childhood. However, I believed that he loved Lorelai and his level of connection with Lorelai was light-years ahead of Chris and Rory. Even as a supposedly distant father, Richard has these anecdotes about little!Lorelai wanting to marry Tip O'Neil or playing with his Yale diploma or stealing wine by breaking off the top that he recounts with some degree of nostalgia and affection. I never hear anything like this come out of Chris's mouth. Richard had the authority to be a disciplinarian like the drive back after Lorelai was expelled from camp where Lorelai shudders at remembering because it was just hours of her summer-camp failure-talk. Chris didn't bother disciplining Rory as a child so when he tried as an adult to pull out the "I'm your dad, kid. I think that demands some respect", Rory all but laughed in his face. Even though Lorelai's story in the Revival ultimately told a story about an unusually warm and fuzzy Richard (and that all still counts!), Lorelai was unsurprised that Richard would find her in the mall to find that she was cutting school and ream her out. Because Richard was an actual father figure. Richard didn't react to Lorelai's birth with a vague "She's pretty". He went to celebrate by setting up investments in Lorelai's name, LOL. Fast-forward to adulthood, Richard knows Lorelai's cocktail. Chris just grabs all sugars and creams because he doesn't know how Rory takes her coffee which is a surefire sign that he barely spent any time with Rory. Also, I respect where most of Richard's time went- a job to support his family. I don't respect where most of Chris's time went pre-S2- on nonsense, failing, and amusing himself. 

Luke rising to the paternal occasion on not one, but TWO, fraught, complicated, hard situations with Jess and April provided enough paternal-stories to compare for Chris to come off even worse. However, I actually think Richard serves his own comparative role. Lorelai makes a big error in judgment to disparage her own father for not being a warm and fuzzy New Age father while flirting with and flattering Rory's dad for finally starting to call once every week only when her daughter turns 17. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Melancholy

[Sweet Tee]

Quote

Chris didn't bother disciplining Rory as a child so when he tried as an adult to pull out the "I'm your dad, kid. I think that demands some respect", Rory all but laughed in his face.

My jaw dropped when he pulled that card.  No, no, no buddy.  Doesn't work that way.  You don't get respect just because you are biologically her father.  You earn respect by actually parenting, something you never bothered doing.  OTOH, when everyone and their brother was lining up to let him off the hook for his failure as a father whenever he showed any type of regret, what else can I expect but for him to shrug his shoulders and continue on as he always has.  Because if no one else thinks it's a problem, then it must not be one.

Quote

but my guess is he really didn't know how to be a bigger part of Rory's life without being with Lorelai, and his efforts with Lorelai (though often misguided) came from a place of love for Rory.

That I can't agree with.  He wanted Lorelai for Lorelai.   I never got the sense that he wanted to be with Lorelai so he could spend more time with Rory or be a better father.  Lorelai was his goal.  Rory just happened to be part of the package. 

[readster]

Quote

My jaw dropped when he pulled that card.  No, no, no buddy.  Doesn't work that way.  You don't get respect just because you are biologically her father.  You earn respect by actually parenting, something you never bothered doing.  OTOH, when everyone and their brother was lining up to let him off the hook for his failure as a father whenever he showed any type of regret, what else can I expect but for him to shrug his shoulders and continue on as he always has.  Because if no one else thinks it's a problem, then it must not be one.

Completely agree and it drives me crazy when people do that in real life too. "Oh, he's the baby daddy, give him some slack." Such crap! Just because a guy was the sperm donor doesn't mean they automatically get a pass. In the GG World, never did anyone outside of Luke or Rory actually call him on Chris's shit or how everyone gave him a pass when he really, he was a loser who fell up to success. 

[ChlcGirl]

I don't really think the reaction from a 16 year old seeing his daughter for the first time and saying "She's pretty" can be compared to a man in his mid-20s who bought a building for his child.  

And no, Chris has no anecdotes because he didn't live with them.  Lorelai didn't want to marry him and then she ran away with Rory. The opportunity wasn't there.

I think Richard loved Lorelai as much as he was capable, but I'm not sure how great a father he was.  He did what was expected for his time, but he wasn't close to his daughter.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, ChlcGirl said:

And no, Chris has no anecdotes because he didn't live with them.  Lorelai didn't want to marry him and then she ran away with Rory. The opportunity wasn't there.

The "opportunity" was picking up the damn phone and trying to host Rory, take Rory on fun outings, find a place in Stars Hallow to stay while he visits and ultimately sleep over at the Crap Shack, or basically what fathers all over the world do when they don't live with the mothers. Just because Chris didn't care to avail himself of those opportunities other than precedent-breaking attempt to host Rory at his place in S2 which I never him extend again doesn't mean that they don't exist.

I don't think Richard was a great father. However, I do think he was decent. (He was a great grandfather. Yes, with a flawed outlook and he made some mistakes. But he gave Rory so much love and support.) He wasn't a deadbeat dad. Chris was a deadbeat dad. And I think it does strike an interesting point of comparison that Lorelai constantly enabled and justified Chris's far crappier parenting but she demonized her father. I think it's of a piece with some of Lorelai's fucked up priorities. Hate Jess's breathing guts because he's the troubled, angry product of a dysfunctional, neglectful household but buddy-up to Liz who did the neglecting and created the dysfunction. Rigorously insist on tough love where she threatens to freeze Rory out of financially if she doesn't go back to Yale and actually freezes her out emotionally for turning to her grandparents. Because, TOUGH LOVE. But while she's doing that, insist on Luke paying TJ a full contractor's salary and Tom an additional 10 percent for keeping up a charade that TJ, a glorified delivery man, is the lead contractor on the project. Her value system can be ridiculous and her marathon-grudge against Richard for being a distant workaholic but responsible dad and marathon-love story with Chris even though he was a deadbeat dad to Rory is part of that. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Melancholy

[Sweet Tee]

I really do think that Lorelai gives Chris a pass because she (maybe she won't acknowledge this to herself) really does like being the only one in control of Rory.  She likes having Rory all to herself and being the center of Rory's adoration and love.  I don't subscribe to the theory that she kept Chris from Rory but she was fine with him being so distant because it left her in charge and she could parent however she wanted without having to compromise or run anything by anyone else.  She told Max that he didn't need a role in Rory's life when she was about to marry him and move him in with them.  Because Rory was "done."  No.  Sixteen is not done. 

But, I agree that Chris did have the opportunity to make memories with Rory.  He chose not to.  Plenty of fathers don't live with their kids but they still stay actively involved in their lives because they love their kids and want to be near them.  Chris was just plain not interested.

[hippielamb]

8 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

He wanted Lorelai for Lorelai.   I never got the sense that he wanted to be with Lorelai so he could spend more time with Rory or be a better father.  Lorelai was his goal.  Rory just happened to be part of the package. 

Agreed. Chris didn't know how to have a relationship with Rory that didn't include Lorelai. 

7 hours ago, readster said:

Completely agree and it drives me crazy when people do that in real life too. "Oh, he's the baby daddy, give him some slack." Such crap! Just because a guy was the sperm donor doesn't mean they automatically get a pass. In the GG World, never did anyone outside of Luke or Rory actually call him on Chris's shit or how everyone gave him a pass when he really, he was a loser who fell up to success. 

Of course this happens in real life, and part of why I like seeing it represented here on the show. If you just judged from most family or sitcom tv shows, you would think no one ever had a unreliable yet charming babydaddy who pops up every so often. Many single mothers have a "Christopher". It happens. It's realistic, and I like seeing it finally shown on a family show. 

[Melancholy]

I think Lorelai had very complicated feelings about Chris's abandonment. THAT'S an instance where I'd really like to see the history. I agree that Lorelai liked having Rory all to herself. I really believe that Lorelai kept the door open to Chris. In the series proper, Lorelai always had the door open to Chris but he rarely chose to use it. However, yeah, there was a definite vibe that she didn't enjoy the sporadic moments where Chris took a stab at co-parenting unless it was together and they were PERFECTLY in synch. Like, "Chris as her chorus" type in synch. She'd put up with Chris exerting his paternal authority, most of the time, and even try to make things easier for him at a cost to herself like letting Rory skip FND to hang with Sherri. However, yeah, she didn't enjoy it. 

However, I have to wonder if she'd enjoy it or wouldn't pull such a sour face if Chris was a dad to Rory from a much early age. Chris started taking a stab at being better parent when Rory was 17. Near the end of her clearly defined childhood. Soon after, Rory was in college- meaning that she wasn't living at home and her time at home and for family was more rationed, even though she went to school close to her home. I get how a Lorelai who became used to being Rory's center of attention, who had come to rely on their "Gilmore Girls Against the World" bond, who already did the hardest parts of child-rearing, who was looking at or experienced more rationed-Rory time, who already invested all of this effort to get Rory to young adult stage and wanted to advise Rory on how attack her adult-years to bear out that effort would be incredibly possessive of her role as the single mom. Maybe Lorelai would even feel similarly if Chris got involved when Rory was a young child. However, Lorelai's conflicted feelings are particularly sympathetic given Rory's older age when Chris decided to come by and play daddy. And it's even more sympathetic because we saw Lorelai get mopey and conflicted about Chris being a dad but pretty invariably came to be unbelievably generous to Chris in helping him create a relationship with his daughter and not feel so guilty. Like, too generous. 

[readster]

18 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Agreed. Chris didn't know how to have a relationship with Rory that didn't include Lorelai. 

Of course this happens in real life, and part of why I like seeing it represented here on the show. If you just judged from most family or sitcom tv shows, you would think no one ever had a unreliable yet charming babydaddy who pops up every so often. Many single mothers have a "Christopher". It happens. It's realistic, and I like seeing it finally shown on a family show. 

Oh I know, I mean I worked with someone who had a baby daddy just like that, just they had a kid at 20 and not 15/16. However, he did just that, blew in always trying to be the hotshot guy that my co-worker fell for. However, when he got another girl pregnant after their kid turned 2. Who she didn't know about, she finally broke things off, but good for him. However, never once was he not spending time with their daughter and taking her to his parents house or anything. He just strung her along while having another girl on the side. Too bad it took until that to realize, he wasn't good for her. He was fine being a dad, but he did a Christopher and at times just wanted to sweep his daughter's mom up on her feet when her parents were saying: "He isn't worth it." 

[Miss Scarlet]

Something I've always wondered about -- is ASP aware of how narcissistic and unlikable Rory and Lorelai are? Are they written this way on purpose, to be more complex or relatable? Or does she not even realize that's how they often come across and all their narcissistic qualities are just part of their "charm" to her? Because I've never understood this weird duality where on the one hand the characters are that entitled and self-centred but are still talked about by most characters on the show (pretty much all of them for Rory and everyone minus Emily for Lorelai) as if they're angels from heaven?

I've also wondered, based on so many comments in the show from other characters about Rory being a "force of nature" and this apparent narrative that she is this dynamic personality -- then why does she come across as not very personable or dynamic? Is she really written to be so similar to Lorelai personality-wise and it's just AB's portrayal that changes that? Because again, like with the self-centredness, there's this discrepancy (for me) in the way the character is seen by other characters and the show and the way the character actually comes across with their own dialogue. I've tried to imagine a different actress playing Rory in a more dynamic way and I think I could see her as being more similar to Lorelai there, but it's hard to tell.