All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[solotrek]

I realized that there wasn't really a place to just talk about the show. For instance, not sure if these would fit into a UO or any sort of best/worst category.

The relationships in this show moved incredibly quickly. Max and Lorelei were together for a few months before they were engaged (after breaking up and getting back together). Same with Dean and Lindsay. Lane/Zach; Sookie/Jackson; Lorelei/Christopher; and Lorelei/Luke were friends long before their relationships but were also dating for a significantly short period of time before their engagements and/or marriages. Their engagements were so incredibly short as well (aside from L/L). Planning the core parts of the ceremony days before the actual wedding? Weird. Then add to that how many of the proposals were post argument/emotional upheaval.

• Sookie/Jackson right after their apartment argument
• Lorelei/Luke right after the situation with Rory and the yacht and her parents
• Lorelei/Max right after Max got into a pissing contest with Luke
• Lorelei/Christopher I don't remember much of that relationship since I hated S7 so much and only watched it once. But I think that was pretty sudden and pretty soon after the whole Luke thing.
• Dean/Lindsay - even that was pretty soon after the whole Rory/Jess thing and the fight at Kyle's house b/w Dean and Jess.
• Lane/Zach - Engaged immediately after making up from their breakup

It almost seemed like a proposal was a good way to settle an argument or to feel good after an emotional low instead of it being ultimately because of love. Logan has a lot of hate (deservedly so), but at least his proposal was thought out and at a more normal juncture of their relationship.

[BkWurm1]

Miss this show. Nothing on TV has the same feel.

On a totally different topic, oh how I hated the Lane/Zach relationship. All I could think anytime I saw it was if only we could have kept Dave. :( I loved Adam Brody over on The OC but oh, I felt his loss and Lane's dumbing down for years on Gilmore Girls. Lane was too good for him and I hated how she got left in the final season, in Stars Hollow raising two kids alone. It just sucked.

Still Zach was a step up from Christopher. ;)

Edited April 29, 2014 by BkWurm1

[random chance]

Aw, I liked Zach.  When he thought Lane was telling him that he couldn't go on tour as that band's opening act (the dream of a lifetime for him), he didn't even blink.  I can't remember the exact words now but he immediately said of course, no problem.  No pissiness, no sighing, no secret look of "crap, you and the kids have ruined my life," none of that.  Granted he was nowhere near as flashy as Dave with his egg sandwich patter and whatnot, but he was a good guy. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by random chance

[CleoCaesar]

On a totally different topic, oh how I hated the Lane/Zach relationship.

 

Same here. First of all it had a "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" feel to it. Secondly, Zach seemed like such a Neanderthal at times - he did get better with time, but I never found him charming, attractive, or anything but annoying (mildly or extremely). But most of all, that relationship was so depressing to see from Lane's perspective. After 18 years of growing up with a psycho fundie for a mother, hiding her entire personality from her, living in a highly repressive household, Lane finally breaks free. She moves out, joins a band, lives with guys, dates, etc. And then it all goes to hell. She and Zach get engaged out of nowhere and she gets knocked up the first time she has sex. Goodbye, touring, fame, success, getting out of Stars Hollow, traveling, and so on.

 

So at the age of 22, she is saddled with newborn twins (!), still living in Stars Hollow, with no college education, working as a waitress, with a husband who may actually succeed as a musician (that won't breed resentment at all down the line), and that's it. Sure, after Steve and Kwan (and other children they have) grow up, sure Lane may embark on some kind of music career but the days of touring and pure ambition ended as soon as that pregnancy test turned positive. She may love Zach and the kids, but it's got to sting that her window of freedom, of being her own person and living the way she wanted to, was so small - something even she comments on:

 

It was such a small window -- a peephole, really. For years, I was this repressed kid, and then there was the briefest of windows. And then -- slam. All of a sudden, I'm this overburdened mother. I barely got to do it, Zach. I barely got the chance to be a person.

 

Grim.

 

Ironically, the Lane storyline was one the most realistic of anything on Gilmore Girls - small-town girl gets married shortly after graduation, gets pregnant, stays in small town working a menial job. Compared to the fun, ambitious lives that all the other characters ended up living, it's practically "American Gothic". Definitely one of my least favorite things about the show - a great character like Lane did not deserve it.

[solotrek]

I felt his loss and Lane's dumbing down for years on Gilmore Girls. Lane was too good for him and I hated how she got left in the final season, in Stars Hollow raising two kids alone. It just sucked.

I don't think Lane was ever dumbed down, but she was given the short end of the stick for every aspect of her character. Ended up going to a college that she hated because of her mom and ended up dropping out because it just wasn't for her. Got the band of her dreams only to end up giving it all up to raise her children while her husband got to live that dream. Spent her whole life hiding things from her mom, then hiding things from her bandmates (food & the money they got from touring), and probably having to hide things from her kids.

 

Still Zach was a step up from Christopher. ;)

Zach was just beyond belief dumb. Christopher was highly unlikeable. It's a shame Lauren and David had such great chemistry.

[StayClassySD]

I had always wished there had been more flashbacks to Lorelei's teen years with Christopher and Lorelei with toddler Rory. I'm not sure how they would've been woven in but it was an interesting back story to me. And does anyone know why Christopher's parents never had a relationship with Rory?

[Taryn74]

And does anyone know why Christopher's parents never had a relationship with Rory?

 

 

Because Lorelai getting pregnant "derailed Christopher's life" (in Straub's eyes, anyway) and they never forgave Lorelai for that, and thus didn't want anything to do with Rory either.

 

It's a fanwank of mine that Straub even refused to acknowledge that Rory was indeed Christopher's child without proof of paternity, and thus would not allow Christopher (a minor at the time) to take any kind of legal responsibility for Rory.  It's not a popular fanwank, heh, but I like it.

[nolieblue]

Watching Teach Me Tonight today and wondered if anybody believes that Christopher would have come to Stars Hollow after Rory's accident if he hadn't been on the outs with Sherri?

[lulu1960]

That's a good point, Nolie. At this point he had already 'flirted' with Lorelai before telling her about Sherry, right?

[nolieblue]

Yes, Christopher was being his usual smarmy, er, charming? self. I also wonder if Lorelai would have even called Christopher if she'd gotten the response she wanted from Luke -- like him prostrating himself before her in shame. 

[Taryn74]

I also wonder if Lorelai would have even called Christopher if she'd gotten the response she wanted from Luke -- like him prostrating himself before her in shame.

 

 

Oh lord, I probably shouldn't admit how hard that made me laugh.

[random chance]

I think the response she wanted was that plus Luke shooting Jess and then running over him with a car.

[lulu1960]

I have no doubt she would not have called Christopher if she and Luke hadn't had the huge fight

[Taryn74]

I think she would have still called Chris, but it wouldn't have been laced with as much melodrama had she not just had it out with Luke.  It would have been more along the lines of "Hey, don't panic because she's okay, but Rory was in a small wreck tonight."  etc etc.

 

I think the response she wanted was that plus Luke shooting Jess and then running over him with a car.

 

 

*snicker*

 

As much as I love Lorelai, it really does bug me that she has never learned to temper what comes out of her mouth.  It's like she really has no concept how much she can hurt people with her words.

[eledgy]

 

It's like she really has no concept how much she can hurt people with her words.

 

I think that's true---and an interesting echo of what she says to Emily in Hammers and Veils.

 

Let's psychoanalyze---do you think that might come from feeling that she was never listened to growing up? Like literally believing that her words have no impact because with her mom and dad, they really didn't seem to?

 

Or, is it more about her and Luke, that she truly just takes him and his support of her so for granted that she doesn't/can't think about her impact on him? Because in Paris is Burning, for example, she realizes right away she's hurt Sookie with her comment about her lack of a recent relationship.

 

Or maybe it's just simply a heat of the moment, she's so mad she can't see reason thing?

[random chance]

I think she doesn't notice how mean she is sometimes because she's more like her mother than she ever wants to believe in a million years. If she notices she's like Emily in some way, she changes whatever she notices, but she isn't always aware of the similarities.

I think she would have still called Chris, but it wouldn't have been laced with as much melodrama had she not just had it out with Luke.

I never made that connection but I think that's exactly it.

[Taryn74]

Let's psychoanalyze---do you think that might come from feeling that she was never listened to growing up? Like literally believing that her words have no impact because with her mom and dad, they really didn't seem to?

 

 

Hmmm, interesting point.  I hadn't thought along those lines before, but I can definitely see that having an impact on her.

 

I think she doesn't notice how mean she is sometimes because she's more like her mother than she ever wants to believe in a million years.

 

 

Oh, yes.  So much yes.  That's why Lorelai's actions in Road Trip to Harvard bother me so much, she treats the people at the B&B the way her mother has always treated her maids, like they're beneath her and thus aren't even worthy of being spoken to decently.  I just can't get past that.

 

I think it's interesting to contrast L/L's fights in TMT and N&N, S&N.  I know a lot of people (*waves at MsT*) think Luke was way out of line with his comment in N&N about her getting pregnant at 16, but to me that always seemed more like a cold slap of reality than unduly harsh.  Yes it stung, but sometimes truth hurts.  Lorelai does tend to think she can do no wrong when it comes to parenting, especially at that point in the show when Rory hadn't even thought of rebelling or stepping out of line.  And Luke had just listened to her - not once, but twice - berate him about how stupid he was for thinking he could be a good caretaker for Jess.  I think she's lucky he didn't say worse. 

 

To me, what Lorelai said to Luke in TMT was far more hurtful and uncalled for, because she told him that she and Rory - nothing more to him at that time than neighbors and good friends - deserved to be put ahead of his own family.  Maybe from her point of view that's true, because she's had to decide in life that family is who you make it, but she's speaking to a man who has never gotten over losing both of his parents at a young age.  Family is very important to him, and his sister and his nephew (and later we find out, his uncle) were literally the only family he had left.  It was wrong of her to casually dismiss their importance to him.  And she wasn't even really that sorry about it, that's what burns me.  Until she and Rory got to the diner and saw the Gone Fishing sign, she was still blowing the whole thing off.  She may have apologized "like, a million times" after that, but it was more because she didn't want to continually be on the outs with him rather than realizing she was really wrong.

[nolieblue]

 

Family is very important to him, and his sister and his nephew (and later we find out, his uncle) were literally the only family he had left.  It was wrong of her to casually dismiss their importance to him.  And she wasn't even really that sorry about it, that's what burns me.  Until she and Rory got to the diner and saw the Gone Fishing sign, she was still blowing the whole thing off.  She may have apologized "like, a million times" after that, but it was more because she didn't want to continually be on the outs with him rather than realizing she was really wrong.

So agree with this. Though I do think Lorelai was in a bit of denial about how much she hurt him. I think she blew it off but knew deep down what she said was pretty horrible. Still, I don't blame Luke at all for freezing her out as long as he did. Why would he trust her after she accused him of not caring about her and Rory and demanding he abandon one of his own family. Questioning his loyalty to the people he cares about is probably the worst thing to accuse Luke of.

[random chance]

The worst thing about it to me was that she didn't tell him that Jess was okay before she ripped into him.  Simple human decency: tell the parent or guardian that the kid isn't dead first, then shred him for having the nerve to allow that kid to breathe the same air as Rory. 

[lulu1960]

I also think that the reason Lorelai called Chris is because he would validate her outrage. How dare Luke not cow down to her.

[nolieblue]

And on a more shallow note, I really hate Lorelai's hair in the last several episodes of S2  - straight and flat. yuck.

[Iseut]

As a curly girl, it always frustrates me when hair is flat-ironed to death. I think fluffier curlier hair is much more flattering to the lovely Lauren Graham's face.

 

In one early S2 episode, the part in Lorelai's flattened hair was disturbingly wide. I remember that even Pamie pointed it out in a TWOP recap.

[lulu1960]

I always thought Lorelai/Lauren looked much better with the curly hair.

[Aloeonatable]

Speaking of hair, I much preferred Alexis' hair in the later seasons, when she had bangs. I didn't think her season 5 short hair was attractive at all. 

[Gooey]

Just a notion given the Breaking Bad prequel, and the now defunct Carrie Diaries: would a GG prequel series work?

I think there is an absolute wealth of stories that could be done but the trick would be getting actors good enough to satisfy the characters we already know and love (hate?!) Done well it would be phenomenal. Hiring players like the girl who played teen Lorelai in DEAR-not so much.

And where would it take place - teen Lorelai & Christopher pre pregnancy? Lorelai and baby Rory chained up in the Gilmore mansion? The Gilmore Girls first arrival to Stars Hollow? Their first years at the Crap Shack? So. Many. Options.

Part if me wishes ASP would get working on this. The other part of me suspects she'd have Sherylin Fenn playing Rory's middle school teacher and Sean Gunn as Lorelai's first romantic interest post Christopher. Sigh.

[MLE]

I've thought a prequel would work well forever. I was always super interested in any bits of backstory, I loved meeting Mia and I think the flashback episode was well done. But part of me thinks it would've been an interesting standalone had their not been a GG. something about a spin off worries me, maybe it's your fears about what ASP would do because yes, probably.

[Guest]

The worst thing about it to me was that she didn't tell him that Jess was okay before she ripped into him.  Simple human decency: tell the parent or guardian that the kid isn't dead first, then shred him for having the nerve to allow that kid to breathe the same air as Rory. 

 

Yes, and she also let him think that Rory was practically on her death bed as well.  She had a hairline fracture of the wrist!  The way she treated the doctor in that same episode was also ridiculous.

 

Also, Jess wasn't really doing anything wrong when the accident happened.  I mean, an ice cream run while they should have been studying? That was on both of them.  But he wasn't driving drunk, he wasn't doing donuts in the parking lot, he swerved to avoid hitting an animal.  There's a reason teen drivers have higher accident rates- they aren't as experienced.  To act like Luke brought Jess to Stars Hollow in an attempt to break Rory's wrist was ridiculous.

[Aloeonatable]

Lorelai's irrational dislike of Jess throughout the series made me like her less. She was justified after their first encounter, but to continue her hatred after the misunderstanding about Dean's bracelet and the car accident, was ridiculous. She became civil when Rory and Jess became a couple, but she always seemed to just tolerate him. I found it ironic that both Dean and Logan, IMO, did more harm to Rory than Jess ever did, yet Lorelai seemed to like both of them. I don't think she ever saw Rory ending up with either Dean or Logan, but she was kind and caring to both of them. I wish we could have see a scene where she learned that it was Jess who finally got Rory to go back to Yale and make up with her mother. 

[random chance]

It's hard telling if ASP meant for Dean to look so mentally abusive and stalkery, but I was done with him foreve when he showed up at Rory's Indian food and laundry night and yelled at her like he caught her having sex with him.

Lorelai didn't like Jess for one reason only, IMO: Jess didn't fawn all over her. He was maybe the only person on the show who didn't buy her brand of cute.

[nolieblue]

 

It's hard telling if ASP meant for Dean to look so mentally abusive and stalkery, but I was done with him foreve when he showed up at Rory's Indian food and laundry night and yelled at her like he caught her having sex with him.

 

Me too! Rory seemed terrified of Dean in those scenes and I don't blame her. Dean was scary angry.

[Taryn74]

Lorelai didn't like Jess for one reason only, IMO: Jess didn't fawn all over her. He was maybe the only person on the show who didn't buy her brand of cute.

 

 

I'm so glad to see someone other than me say this LOL.  I was totally on his side during the "go Dr. Laura someone else" speech.

[jjj]

Hello?  Just migrated over here; first post.  Looking forward to discussing my favorite show.  I have to say, I never liked Jess's attitude!  But Lorelai cut him very little slack. 

[txhorns79]

I see a lot of familiar names! 

 

And yes, I never understood what they did with Dean as the show went on.  Perhaps it was just an acting choice, but I did feel like there were times when Dean was somewhat frightening during the rivalry between he and Jess. 

[Taryn74]

Glad to see more familiar faces migrating over!!!

[solotrek]

found it ironic that both Dean and Logan, IMO, did more harm to Rory than Jess ever did, yet Lorelai seemed to like both of them.

 

I don't think Lorelei ever actually liked Logan. It came off as pretty tolerant at best. She didn't have the same outright hatred for him that she did for Jess, but she always seemed to be only ok with Logan just to make Rory happy. She hated his family, she hated where he came from, and she hated what he represented. I think Emily called her out about that a few times and Logan did as well in the episode where he spends the night at their house (the one with the hay bale maze).

[AlinaRay]

I have to agree with that. She never completely warmed up to Logan, but gradually started to like him after he graduated and went overseas. Still, he comes from a world she ran away from many years ago, so it must kill her to see Rory headed on a path straight back to it.

 

When Logan asked Lorelai to marry Rory, she seemed like she wanted to say no, but she ultimately recognized that it was Rory's life and Rory's decision and if Rory was going to be happy with this guy, she wasn't going to stand in the way of that.

[Taryn74]

Have we ever really discussed how we feel about Rory being so comfortable in the richie-rich world, and the effect that has on Lorelai?  Because it just dawned on me that Rory is really the first "normal" person Lorelai has known that fits comfortably in that world and doesn't hate it out of principal.  I see a lot of growth in Lorelai as she comes to terms with that over the years.

[solotrek]

Because it just dawned on me that Rory is really the first "normal" person Lorelai has known that fits comfortably in that world and doesn't hate it out of principal.  I see a lot of growth in Lorelai as she comes to terms with that over the years.

 

She seemed to be ok with Jason as well.  But I guess part of that came out of just trying to piss off her mom.

[Taryn74]

I wasn't considering Jason "normal", heh.  I should have clarified what I meant though.  I meant more someone who doesn't come from that life in the first place, which Jason does.

[AlinaRay]

Lorelai did have some growth over the years, but I don't think she was ever completely okay with her daughter in that world. And I think it helped that Rory didn't let herself get carried away with all of the hoopla. Like for the coming out party, Lorelai and Rory were essentially mocking the entire thing and going through the motions. But it allowed Rory to be a part of it while still staying connected to Lorelai. I think things like that made it easier for Lorelai to accept.

[chitowngirl]

ABC Family is showing Rory's graduation from Chilton today. It's nice that that episode is airing during graduation season!

[Iseut]

This is a silly question, but it's been sort of bugging me since watching "An Affair to Remember" on ABC Family this morning...Emily orders a mixture of white, off-white and cream colored linens for her event. 

 

So, I'm not rich and don't host fancy parties, but this just seems like a horrible idea. Wouldn't the off-white and cream-colored linens look dingy or dirty next to the pure white ones? Is this a thing rich people do? Do the mixes of whites look better when mixed with pure silver or crystal goblets or whatever?

 

Emily Posts (and Emily Gilmores :)) of the world, help me understand!

[AlinaRay]

Actually a lot of decorators and such like to put similar color schemes together to help "tie things together" as it were. The silver would be the contrasting "popping" color as it were, but since it's Emily Gilmore, it can't be TOO colorful, it has to be dignified. But it's a common trick to use slightly different shades of the same gradient and then an accent color.

 

The best example I can find is this room:

 

 

The walls and floor don't look dingy next to the pure white furniture, and the yellows and browns act as the accents.

Edited June 17, 2014 by AlinaRay

[solotrek]

I also think maybe it would have something to do with the lighting in the room?

[lulu1960]

I know we were talking about Lorelai's hair a while back. But because I am rewatching Season 4 I just have to say that in Nag Hammadi Lauren's hair was awful. It looked unhealthy and (if they were extentions) poor ones at that. I just kept looking at her hair. 

[Taryn74]

I know we were talking about Lorelai's hair a while back. But because I am rewatching Season 4 I just have to say that in Nag Hammadi Lauren's hair was awful. It looked unhealthy and (if they were extentions) poor ones at that. I just kept looking at her hair. 

 

I know, it's so distracting!  My niece dyes her hair like every two weeks it seems like, and I'm talking full-on dying where she has to bleach it out first and all, and her poor hair looks like that all the time.  It makes me sad.  But the kids nowadays (I sound so old when I say that!) don't seem to know that's not how hair is supposed to look LOL.

[JayInChicago]

I can't get the image out of my head of Paris and Asher Fleming grossly pawing each other making out after the yale/havard game. :o

[Iseut]

Watched Afterboom on ABC Family today, and just had to vent a few things...

 

As someone who has been through a much-needed divorce, I was getting so frustrated with Lorelai bugging Luke about doing it "right...Not at Mail Boxes Etc!" Lady, they have a notary and access to postage. That is all he needed at that moment. Luke is emotionally stunted and unavailable, sure, but sometimes you just need to get shit done so you can move on. Normally I love Lorelai and think Luke is too grumpy with her, but at that moment, I was 100% on his side.

 

Also, Lorelai handled the talk with her dad about his shutting out Jason in exactly the wrong way. She was correct to tell him that what he was doing was wrong and unfair, but by making it all about her, she lost any persuasive points she might have made. 

 

And Rory was damn lucky that Asher didn't just change her grade to an F; she was so disrespectful. 

 

I guess this episode is "Boo, Gilmore girls!" for me, though I still like it! Just thought our main ladies made some baaaad choices. 

[AlinaRay]

I'm with you on the Rory front. In fact, I skipped right over that scene on my DVR because it's just so painful to watch.

[Athena]

I've been rewatching some of the later scenes because of the UO topic. I must admit that I love Logan. I don't know all the reasons why and he annoyed me slightly in the beginning, but he really grew on me. I think he and Jess (whom I didn't care for from start to finish) actually had growth. Dean became worse. He wasn't the same sweet Dean from S1 and S2.

 

I don't think Lorelai loved Logan or even liked him that much. I don't think Lorelai was ever going to love anyone Rory would date. I think she did appreciate Logan a bit. While she hated his family, his wealth, his bad boy past, he clearly loved Rory. I do feel he treated Rory better than Jess treated Rory at the end and Lorelai saw it too. Another thing is that I realized Logan is Christopher. I think Lorelai had to feel a bit sorry for Logan after the Martha's Vineyard episode. She grew to like him after he moved abroad and was there for Rory even when away.