Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Spencer Hastings]

3 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

Hopefully there's nothing wrong with the kids or anything, causing Jilly to not post on IG. 

I also hope there’s nothing going on with Jill, especially with Derick alluding to her mental health and his sudden outbursts.

[QuinnInND]

29 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

I also hope there’s nothing going on with Jill, especially with Derick alluding to her mental health and his sudden outbursts.

Yes indeed. He hasn't posted anything since Christmas either. 

 

[lascuba]

5 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, they actually believed their daughters.  They BELIEVED their daughters, including a 5 year old, caused their own brother to sexually molest them. And they told them so and made them announce that they forgave their brother for molesting them while simultaneously shaming them for being the cause of it. There are plenty of parents who discover their kids have been molested and turn it around on the kid and that is not right, either.  In some ways, better they hadn't believed them.

The Duggar beliefs are akin to those of people who claim that it is a woman's fault she got raped because she bared too much skin or danced too suggestively, or drank too much or had the nerve to go out at night without an escort.  They are reprehensible and there is no way to spin it otherwise.

Oh, good grief I didn't spin shit. I made it abundantly clear that I wasn't defending them and that they are shitty parents and horrible human beings. ALL I said was there are many, MANY parents who, when learning that their child'd abuser is another child of theirs, wouldn't do anything at all. 

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

guess we should applaud the Duggars because they at least don’t pick up stones to punish the women with?  

 Well, not until Jed wins the election. 

[Gemma Violet]

Here's an article in the Daily Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7837507/Derick-Dillard-claims-Jill-Duggar-arent-ALLOWED-parents-house.html#comments

 

[lulu69]

We previously discussed how it's cruel keeping Jill from the TTH and her siblings but I wonder if Boob and MEchelle have actively turned the siblings against Jill, particularly the little girls and Jill's buddy group?

What explanation would Boob give the girls as to why Jill is not allowed at the TTH anymore? Would he tell the siblings that Derick and Jill let satan build a fortress in their hearts and disobeyed Jesus by not honouring her parents?

I could see Boob using Dreck and Jill's defiance as a lesson, much the way he used his own dad in public speaking engagements. I could even see Boob leading the family in prayer, asking the lord to lead Jill and Dreck back to Jesus, pompous ass that Boob is.

[floridamom]

I remember the Alice post. Alice stated that 4 of Josh's sisters were molested but not the oldest one..she also went on to say that Michelle hadn't bathed her children herself in years and that Michelle's children hadn't seen the inside of a grocery store in years. Those filmed trips to Aldi's were only for the show. She stated some specifics in her post which all added up to Michelle being a terribly lazy mother. If someone could find that post, perhaps it should be posted here for others to read. It's eerily accurate. I believed it then and I believe it now.

[ginger90]

Here’s a PEOPLE article that refers to Alice:

 

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-molestation-online-commenter-warned-about-coverup-in-2007/

[kokapetl]

13 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Read the Gothard approved information on sexual abuse on the preceding page.  We know that JB and M were very involved in his teachings; using his curriculum for homeschooling, attending multiple conferences and speaking at them.  Please point me to the evidence that JB and M DIDN'T follow Gothard's teachings on the subject of sexual abuse.

Josh was banished to the labor camp. The girls were locked in their communal bedroom, took to sleeping fully clothed and not permitted to associate with their brothers including forbidden from playing hide and seek.  They were punished, too.

The girls weren’t locked in their bedrooms, the girls locked out other people. Sleeping in their clothes, we didn’t see much of what the girls wore to sleep, due to the cameras being locked out, but we saw the boys do that a lot, so I’d say it was a laziness thing, if the girls did that too. A quick glance at the police reports suggests the victims were all fully clothed when assaulted. The modesty restrictions seems to have been relaxed gradually over time during the tv show, but I don’t know what they were wearing in 2001 compared to 2004. By the time the show started in 2008, the children who were still kids played in age groups, so Joy played with brothers, and Jackson played with sisters. Jackson and Johannah were allowed to be best friends. Theoretically the children were blanket trained, but the average day in the TTH house was bedlam in the earlier years. I honestly don’t think JimChelle placed any blame on the victims, and they performed above average in their handling of the molestations, average is ignore and do nothing. Jill was failed in far worse and in so, so many other ways by JimChelle.  

I think Derick is angry with JimBob over money and is using the molestation as a weapon.

[GeeGolly]

32 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

The girls weren’t locked in their bedrooms, the girls locked out other people. Sleeping in their clothes, we didn’t see much of what the girls wore to sleep, due to the cameras being locked out, but we saw the boys do that a lot, so I’d say it was a laziness thing, if the girls did that too. A quick glance at the police reports suggests the victims were all fully clothed when assaulted. The modesty restrictions seems to have been relaxed gradually over time during the tv show, but I don’t know what they were wearing in 2001 compared to 2004. By the time the show started in 2008, the children who were still kids played in age groups, so Joy played with brothers, and Jackson played with sisters. Jackson and Johannah were allowed to be best friends. Theoretically the children were blanket trained, but the average day in the TTH house was bedlam in the earlier years. I honestly don’t think JimChelle placed any blame on the victims, and they performed above average in their handling of the molestations, average is ignore and do nothing. Jill was failed in far worse and in so, so many other ways by JimChelle.  

I think Derick is angry with JimBob over money and is using the molestation as a weapon.

I agree Koka. 

I think Michelle stopped blanket training after the breakdown. She used a lot of book reading timeouts to punish the kids, which I believe turned them off to reading in addition to having nothing good to read.

This is the one area where JB & M noticeably stepped up and handled a very delicate, horrid and difficult situation.

 

 

[BetyBee]

We haven't heard from Derick for several days. I predict that when we do, he will say that we all misunderstood his tweets. This is what he does - posts tantalizing (usually vague) things that are likely to bring attention to him. Then he backs off and claims to have meant something different or that he never said such and such. It's nice to think that he's standing his ground against JB, but he usually deflects his criticism to TLC. I take everything he writes with a grain of salt. If he ever writes that book, it will be a convoluted mess. 

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

Here’s a PEOPLE article that refers to Alice:

 

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-molestation-online-commenter-warned-about-coverup-in-2007/

Thank you for the link, Ginger90. Alice certainly did have the scoop on Josh.

[Marshmallow Mollie]

That’s true we haven’t heard from Derick in a few days. Cease and desist letter perhaps? 

[GeeGolly]

So "Alice" starting telling folks about Josh in 2007, a year after the police investigated them? Her concern seems more about the Duggars becoming 'famous' then about the girls health and wellbeing.

[doodlebug]

59 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

So "Alice" starting telling folks about Josh in 2007, a year after the police investigated them? Her concern seems more about the Duggars becoming 'famous' then about the girls health and wellbeing.

Whatever her motivation, she told the truth.  People often have more than one motive behind their actions.  She certainly expressed dismay that Josh was still living in the same home as his sisters.

3 hours ago, kokapetl said:

The girls weren’t locked in their bedrooms, the girls locked out other people.

Yes, but do you think they had a choice as to whether or not their door was locked?  I don't.

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

That’s true we haven’t heard from Derick in a few days. Cease and desist letter perhaps? 

Coming down? Crashed out? 

[lascuba]

3 hours ago, kokapetl said:

The girls weren’t locked in their bedrooms, the girls locked out other people. Sleeping in their clothes, we didn’t see much of what the girls wore to sleep, due to the cameras being locked out, but we saw the boys do that a lot, so I’d say it was a laziness thing, if the girls did that too. A quick glance at the police reports suggests the victims were all fully clothed when assaulted. The modesty restrictions seems to have been relaxed gradually over time during the tv show, but I don’t know what they were wearing in 2001 compared to 2004. By the time the show started in 2008, the children who were still kids played in age groups, so Joy played with brothers, and Jackson played with sisters. Jackson and Johannah were allowed to be best friends. Theoretically the children were blanket trained, but the average day in the TTH house was bedlam in the earlier years. I honestly don’t think JimChelle placed any blame on the victims, and they performed above average in their handling of the molestations, average is ignore and do nothing. Jill was failed in far worse and in so, so many other ways by JimChelle.  

I think Derick is angry with JimBob over money and is using the molestation as a weapon.

Yes, as much as I'm enjoying Derrick's outbursts because fuck Jim Bob, he's not the concerned husband everyone's painting him to be. I really think the he (and likely Ben) new about Josh before marrying and had no problem with him since he supposedly repented and was forgiven. 

[doodlebug]

3 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Yes, as much as I'm enjoying Derrick's outbursts because fuck Jim Bob, he's not the concerned husband everyone's painting him to be. I really think the he (and likely Ben) new about Josh before marrying and had no problem with him since he supposedly repented and was forgiven. 

I think that Derick and Ben were given a bare-bones, sanitized version of events, much like the scenario pushed on the Megyn Kelley special.  Anna, too.  And, they accepted it at face value like the good fundiebots they were.  JB was their future spouse's headship, he was a godly man, doing the work of the Lord.  No way he'd alter the details or minimize the damage done to his family, especially his daughters, by the abuse and its aftermath.

Then, after marrying the Duggar offspring of their choice, after a very brief and restricted courtship; they learned that the story they were told was more fairytale than fact.  That their wives were deeply affected in ways that they didn't realize before the wedding.  That their husband, despite his supposed repentance, was a seriously messed-up human being who was bound to be a lousy husband.  And, I don't doubt they've been privy to some details that they never saw in their wildest dreams.

I think that Derick has come to the realization that he was sold a bill of goods and at least part of his anger is due to the fact that he bought what JB was selling; hook, line and sinker.  They made a fool of him. Not just about the molestations but also about the finances involved in the show. He needs to stop lashing out like a toddler and figure out the best way to handle it to help his wife recover and allow them both to move forward.  I do think he cares about Jill and at least part of his anger is because of his sorrow at how she was treated by her family.

[GeeGolly]

54 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Whatever her motivation, she told the truth.  People often have more than one motive behind their actions.  She certainly expressed dismay that Josh was still living in the same home as his sisters.

Yes, but do you think they had a choice as to whether or not their door was locked?  I don't.

Other than rage, jealousy, money, revenge or hate, what would compel someone to want to expose details about a family's trauma?

If it was concern for the girls' safety because Josh was still in the home, why wasn't she calling DCF or the police?

[Zella]

20 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Other than rage, jealousy, money, revenge or hate, what would compel someone to want to expose details about a family's trauma?

If it was concern for the girls' safety because Josh was still in the home, why wasn't she calling DCF or the police?

Well, to be fair, we don't know that she didn't report it to the police. In the police report, someone called a local hotline and reported it and it seems like they knew the family directly. The Oprah report was faxed in, so that hotline phone call isn't the Oprah people. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Zella

[Zella]

Also, the Alice comment on the blog is from May 2007 whereas the hotline call was from December 2006. That timeline makes sense to me in that she may have been frustrated with what she perceived as lack of progress with the case.

I'm not saying that's the best way to handle it, but I don't think we can rule out that Alice is the one who both tipped off Oprah and then called the hotline herself. Whoever reported them to the hotline said they had talked to Jim Bob and Michelle directly about it and were concerned about what they felt was a lack of treatment and the fact it was never reported. 

[Minivanessa]

Two facts:

1. JB and Michelle hid the molestations from TLC and therefore got their big fat TV contract with all the attendant fame and money and freebies. Which brought TV crews into their house and put all their kids on public display to a degree they would have never experienced absent the TLC shows.
2. That TV contract came along after JB had spent a quarter of a million dollars on a losing and stupid primary campaign to unseat a sitting US Senator, while his family lived literally squashed into a little ranch house. He could have housed them much more comfortably in that area, at that time, with even half of the money he spent on his political ego trip.

Obviously, there are differences of opinion as to how admirable the Duggars' parental response was to the molestations. Those two facts above are why I don't admire or respect their response to what was, yes, a horrible situation for any parent to face. The welfare of their children is not the primary concern of those parents. It's clearly down on the list of priorities after money and power. IMO. Obviously YMMV.

[kokapetl]

14 minutes ago, Zella said:

Also, the Alice comment on the blog is from May 2007 whereas the hotline call was from December 2006. That timeline makes sense to me in that she may have been frustrated with what she perceived as lack of progress with the case.

I'm not saying that's the best way to handle it, but I don't think we can rule out that Alice is the one who both tipped off Oprah and then called the hotline herself. Whoever reported them to the hotline said they had talked to Jim Bob and Michelle directly about it and were concerned about what they felt was a lack of treatment and the fact it was never reported. 

Someone found a forgotten about, unsent letter in a book which had info about Josh, that person spoke to JimBob, and then rang hotline. I think that person probably tipped off Oprah as well. Did Alice the message board lady type in all caps? The Oprah emailer did.

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

Someone found a forgotten about, unsent letter in a book which had info about Josh, that person spoke to JimBob, and then rang hotline. I think that person probably tipped off Oprah as well. Did Alice the message board lady type in all caps? The Oprah emailer did.

Right, but I don't think one can rule out that the person who found the letter and then called the hotline and tipped off Oprah isn't Alice. I'm not entirely sure the Oprah email being in all caps means it was literally in all caps. It looks like formatting in the police report to me. 

@kokapetl You can read the comment yourself here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/

Just search for Alice and it comes up. She does actually use some all caps, for what that's worth. LOL But again, I'm not really sure the email being in all-caps in the police report means it was sent in all caps. 

[Albanyguy]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

I think that Derick and Ben were given a bare-bones, sanitized version of events, much like the scenario pushed on the Megyn Kelley special. 

I'm not sure they even knew that much. I think it's just as likely that they were kept completely in the dark. I can see Jim Bob and Michelle forbidding their daughters from telling, reminding Jill and Jessa that the molestations were as much their fault as Josh's and warning them that Ben and Derick would regard them as "damaged goods" if they found out. At that point, protecting the TV show was Jim Bob's greatest concern and how could he take a chance that either Derick or Ben wouldn't bolt and then let the cat out of the bag? I think the husbands were kept on a need-to-know basis and didn't find out about the molestations until right before the news broke in the media.

As for Anna, I agree she was fed a sanitized version of Josh getting in trouble as a boy, but she may have been led to believe it was something as mild as Josh getting caught kissing a girl at church (which would have been horrifying enough to someone raised like Anna was). It's very possible that she never knew that whatever Josh did involved his sisters.

[madpsych78]

Do any other fundie families (i.e., the Bateses, etc.) use any "Nike" type passcodes or what have you to shield the boys the way the Duggars have? Yes, I think all of these families preach modesty, but I think the Duggars take it to a whole 'nother level and that is because of their beliefs about Josh's/the girls' respective roles in the molestations.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Albanyguy said:

I'm not sure they even knew that much. I think it's just as likely that they were kept completely in the dark. I can see Jim Bob and Michelle forbidding their daughters from telling, reminding Jill and Jessa that the molestations were as much their fault as Josh's and warning them that Ben and Derick would regard them as "damaged goods" if they found out. At that point, protecting the TV show was Jim Bob's greatest concern and how could he take a chance that either Derick or Ben wouldn't bolt and then let the cat out of the bag? I think the husbands were kept on a need-to-know basis and didn't find out about the molestations until right before the news broke in the media.

As for Anna, I agree she was fed a sanitized version of Josh getting in trouble as a boy, but she may have been led to believe it was something as mild as Josh getting caught kissing a girl at church (which would have been horrifying enough to someone raised like Anna was). It's very possible that she never knew that whatever Josh did involved his sisters.

Agreed--I don't think any of the spouses knew anything remotely resembling the truth and were quite blindsided by the molestation reveal. Jim Bob wasn't going to risk that leaking out by telling multiple in-laws. 

[Dimi1]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

I think that Derick and Ben were given a bare-bones, sanitized version of events, much like the scenario pushed on the Megyn Kelley special.  Anna, too.  And, they accepted it at face value like the good fundiebots they were.  JB was their future spouse's headship, he was a godly man, doing the work of the Lord.  No way he'd alter the details or minimize the damage done to his family, especially his daughters, by the abuse and its aftermath.

Then, after marrying the Duggar offspring of their choice, after a very brief and restricted courtship; they learned that the story they were told was more fairytale than fact.  That their wives were deeply affected in ways that they didn't realize before the wedding.  That their husband, despite his supposed repentance, was a seriously messed-up human being who was bound to be a lousy husband.  And, I don't doubt they've been privy to some details that they never saw in their wildest dreams.

I think that Derick has come to the realization that he was sold a bill of goods and at least part of his anger is due to the fact that he bought what JB was selling; hook, line and sinker.  They made a fool of him. Not just about the molestations but also about the finances involved in the show. He needs to stop lashing out like a toddler and figure out the best way to handle it to help his wife recover and allow them both to move forward.  I do think he cares about Jill and at least part of his anger is because of his sorrow at how she was treated by her family.

I agree and the fact that Josh got caught in the ashley madison bust...and was with hookers made it seem more plausible that in fact he had not repented and changed and then that probably led to them realizing the molesting of the girls..was in fact far worse than portrayed my J and M

[Lunera]

Just now, kokapetl said:

Someone found a forgotten about, unsent letter in a book which had info about Josh, that person spoke to JimBob, and then rang hotline. I think that person probably tipped off Oprah as well. Did Alice the message board lady type in all caps? The Oprah emailer did.

I read on a Reddit thread that it was a male friend of the family who wrote the letter. I always wondered if it was Dim Bob's father who did it and that's why he loathed him so much.

[AbbyAdams]

33 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Two facts:

1. JB and Michelle hid the molestations from TLC and therefore got their big fat TV contract with all the attendant fame and money and freebies. Which brought TV crews into their house and put all their kids on public display to a degree they would have never experienced absent the TLC shows.
2. That TV contract came along after JB had spent a quarter of a million dollars on a losing and stupid primary campaign to unseat a sitting US Senator, while his family lived literally squashed into a little ranch house. He could have housed them much more comfortably in that area, at that time, with even half of the money he spent on his political ego trip.

 

Re: #1, I wonder if JB and Michelle were hoping that the cameras would keep Josh in line somehow. And I wonder if that actually did kind of work out for them. Not that that excuses them exploiting their kids for TV fame or any of their other terrible decisions.

Re: #2, that campaign was obviously stupid, but wouldn't the $250k have come from political fundraising? As if JB would spend his own money when he could get some suckers to fund it. And if the money was donated to the campaign, it would be improper/illegal for him to use it for his family. 

[Ohiopirate02]

I do think that Derick has enough compassion and sense not to disclose exactly what he was told before marrying Jill.  I do think he was told something, but with the warped thinking of the Duggars he may have thought it was something far more innocuous.  These are people who think that watching porn, masturbating, consensual kissing and fondling, etc  are on par with rape as far as sins go.  How was Derick supposed to know that when JB hinting to some sexual sin on the part of Josh was him molesting Jill and others?  They would have had the same reaction if someone walked in on Josh rubbing one out while watching some porn.  While Derick is the "right" type of Christian, he is far more worldly than his in-laws and I could see him thinking JB was making a mountain out of a molehill instead of telling him about actual abuse.  

 

I still think Derick is a prick and a bigot, but I will give him credit that he is calling Jill's abuse what it is.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, AbbyAdams said:

Re: #1, I wonder if JB and Michelle were hoping that the cameras would keep Josh in line somehow. And I wonder if that actually did kind of work out for them. Not that that excuses them exploiting their kids for TV fame or any of their other terrible decisions.

Re: #2, that campaign was obviously stupid, but wouldn't the $250k have come from political fundraising? As if JB would spend his own money when he could get some suckers to fund it. And if the money was donated to the campaign, it would be improper/illegal for him to use it for his family. 

I've always seen it reported that it was Jim Bob's own money that was spent, so not money from fundraising. The asshole literally had that money on hand but spent it on his political campaign rather than his family. 

[AbbyAdams]

How did he amass $250k and where was that reported? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, AbbyAdams said:

How did he amass $250k and where was that reported? It just doesn't make sense to me.

This is a reprint from a 2001 Arkansas Democrat Gazette article stating that.The Democrat Gazette is the main state newspaper and is very reputable.

https://www.quiverfull.com/articles.php/id20/

Edited December 31, 2019 by Zella

[AbbyAdams]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

This is a reprint from a 2001 Arkansas Democrat Gazette article stating that.The Democrat Gazette is the main state newspaper and is very reputable.

https://www.quiverfull.com/articles.php/id20/

Aha! Thanks for the link. Here's what it says:

Quote

Jim Bob accepts campaign contributions, but he doesn't solicit them. Hutchinson has $1.5 million in his coffers. Jim Bob has $250,000--all his own money. 

I guess I don't take "all his own money" to be very meaningful here. Who knows what contributions he got?

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, AbbyAdams said:

Aha! Thanks for the link. Here's what it says:

I guess I don't take "all his own money" to be very meaningful here. Who knows what contributions he got?

I don't think he got many--I live in Arkansas. A lot of people saw his campaign as a fucking joke, and even he admits in the article that contributions were being funneled to his more prominent and mainstream Republican primary opponent/incumbent. You're not getting lots of donations in that situation, and the article also talks about how many people thought the campaign was doomed to fail. Financing your own campaign is a great indication that you don't have any real support, though I think Jim Bob was too stubborn to admit that. 

Jim Bob never even made it to the general election that year, and I think he was trounced in the primary election about 78 to 22%. 

Incidentally, that article is also a good encapsulation of how the Duggar kids were viewed at the time. I know people who met them at campaign events then, and they always commented that the kids were very well-behaved, at least in public. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Zella

[JoanArc]

14 hours ago, lulu69 said:

 

We previously discussed how it's cruel keeping Jill from the TTH and her siblings but I wonder if Boob and MEchelle have actively turned the siblings against Jill, particularly the little girls and Jill's buddy group?

 

Jim Bob would be wise to keep this thought in mind.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

Do any other fundie families (i.e., the Bateses, etc.) use any "Nike" type passcodes or what have you to shield the boys the way the Duggars have? Yes, I think all of these families preach modesty, but I think the Duggars take it to a whole 'nother level and that is because of their beliefs about Josh's/the girls' respective roles in the molestations.

IMO with the Duggars it was truly about making a big public display about their devotion to piety.   Something that is not pleasing in the eyes of God -- according to the scriptures that they also love to tell any and everybody how much time they spend studying on a daily basis.  

[GeeGolly]

I guess I have a different view of JB & M. I see a gullible young couple who fell into a cult after seeing the wrong MD for Michelle's miscarriage. I don't see a calculating evil couple who set out to damage their kids.

I see a couple who are shitty parents, following some shitty beliefs. JB is definitely an opportunist who tries to make a buck with the least amount of effort. However, when the family was highlighted after his failed run for office, reality TV shows featuring families weren't even a thing. No one, not even JB, could have fathomed they'd still be on TV.

I don't find it odd JB & M didn't tell interviewers or TLC about the molestations. Most folks don't openly share family trauma. I don't think they kept the molestations private because they thought TLC wouldn't continue to film them. I think not sharing it probably was due to shame, guilt, embarrassment and compassion for the girls.

[DangerousMinds]

I tend to think Derick and Bin did not know about the molestations. The couples were not even permitted to be alone or have private conversations before marriage. And Bin was still a teenager.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I guess I have a different view of JB & M. I see a gullible young couple who fell into a cult after seeing the wrong MD for Michelle's miscarriage. I don't see a calculating evil couple who set out to damage their kids.

 

I don't think they set out to damage them either, but I think they're both so incredibly selfish that it is inevitable they did. I suspect Jim Bob and Michelle think they really love their kids and that they're good parents. But I just haven't seen any evidence that backs that up. It seems like every decision they have ever made has been all about them and never the good of their kids. I don't think that is mutually exclusive of them being deluded themselves. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I don't think they set out to damage them either, but I think they're both so incredibly selfish that it is inevitable they did. I suspect Jim Bob and Michelle think they really love their kids and that they're good parents. But I just haven't seen any evidence that backs that up. It seems like every decision they have ever made has been all about them and never the good of their kids. I don't think that is mutually exclusive of them being deluded themselves. 

I agree that many of their decisions have damaged their kids and damaged themselves as well. I truly don't believe they are aware of the damage they've caused, nor purposely damaged them.

If anything that Derick posts is true, they may start to see what others see, fairly soon though.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree that many of their decisions have damaged their kids and damaged themselves as well. I truly don't believe they are aware of the damage they've caused, nor purposely damaged them.

If anything that Derick posts is true, they may start to see what others see, fairly soon though.

I don't have that optimistic of a view that they'll see the damage because at no point in the past 30 years have they seen it. I think they will just perceive this as a hostile attack from Satan and double-down.

😞

It would require them to admit they are wrong, and I don't think Jim Bob's ego can abide that.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

Just now, Zella said:

I don't have that optimistic of a view that they'll see the damage because at no point in the past 30 years have they seen it. I think they will just perceive this as a hostile attack from Satan and double-down. 😞

My fingers are crossed. If Derick can grow a pair and stop with the passive-aggressive posts, maybe he and Jill can sit down and talk with them and open their eyes a little.

This is where JB's 'celebrity' can bite him in the butt. He'll no for sure that their fans and haters are watching this play out.

If nothing else, at least he'll hear it, and hear it from someone he created and had a part in raising.

[Zella]

@GeeGolly we cross-posted, but I guess my thing with the Duggars is that they have never treated anything as a wake-up call.  I think you're approaching this as a normal, logical person, and they are anything but. 

Michelle's laundry room breakdown wasn't a wake-up call that they didn't need to have more children.

The molestations weren't a wake-up call that their views on sexuality were deeply toxic to both their sons and daughters.

The doctors telling Michelle she shouldn't have more children weren't a wake-up call that she really didn't need to have more kids.

The increasing chaos and apparent filth they live in has not been a wake-up call about the way they live their lives. 

Their increasingly feral younger children weren't a wake-up call that it was unfair and irresponsible to all the kids to force their siblings to raise them rather than their own parents.

The "normal" people they have encountered aren't a wake-up call at how fucked-up and stunted their own kids are--instead other people are regarded as wrong with them being right. And they know how creepy that looks because they are positioning Jed! to not look like a sheltered loser, even though he is a sheltered loser. 

The list just goes on and on. So, I just cannot see how them being called out publicly by Derick is going to make any difference if all that other stuff never did. If Derick had gone to Jim Bob and talked to him in private about this, I don't think Jim Bob's reaction would have been any different. He would have been pissed and felt attacked and wronged. And I don't think Jill telling them this stuff is going to make a difference--it just makes her a traitor. 😞

Edited December 31, 2019 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

Hope springs eternal. 😔

[Zella]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Hope springs eternal. 😔

I hear you! My hope is about Jill busting out of there and casting off the shackles since she seems to be the one most blatantly headed that way, but deep down, I don't think she will ever  truly manage that or be a fully-functional person because of how badly she is damaged. And though I appreciate Derick calling JB out, I don't think he is particularly well-equipped to be her partner on this path toward healing and contributes his own share of issues to the situation. It's just a depressing situation all the way around. 

[GeeGolly]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

I hear you! My hope is about Jill busting out of there and casting off the shackles since she seems to be the one most blatantly headed that way, but deep down, I don't think she will ever  truly manage that or be a fully-functional person because of how badly she is damaged. And though I appreciate Derick calling JB out, I don't think he is particularly well-equipped to be her partner on this path toward healing and contributes his own share of issues to the situation. It's just a depressing situation all the way around. 

If Jill shakes the shackles, I have very high hopes for her. She has a few things going for her that others who have left toxic environments don't always have; a partner, and one that seemingly supports her, food, shelter and some ties to a healthier community.

It'll be a lot of little steps forward and giant leaps backward, but I think she could come out of this and be a happy, productive person, with some extra struggles here and there.

Edited December 31, 2019 by GeeGolly

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

If Jill shakes the shackles, I have very high hopes for her. She has a few things going for her that others who have left toxic environments don't always have; a partner, and one that seemingly supports her, food, shelter and some ties to a healthier community.

It'll be a lot little steps forward and giant leaps backward, but I think she could come out of this and be a happy, productive person, with some extra struggles here and there.

That actually does make me feel a little more optimistic for her! 

[kokapetl]

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

I hear you! My hope is about Jill busting out of there and casting off the shackles since she seems to be the one most blatantly headed that way, but deep down, I don't think she will ever  truly manage that or be a fully-functional person because of how badly she is damaged. And though I appreciate Derick calling JB out, I don't think he is particularly well-equipped to be her partner on this path toward healing and contributes his own share of issues to the situation. It's just a depressing situation all the way around. 

 

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

If Jill shakes the shackles, I have very high hopes for her. She has a few things going for her that others who have left toxic environments don't always have; a partner, and one that seemingly supports her, food, shelter and some ties to a healthier community.

It'll be a lot of little steps forward and giant leaps backward, but I think she could come out of this and be a happy, productive person, with some extra struggles here and there.

I’d like to believe Derick will save her, but he’s got his own issues.

[JoanArc]

1 minute ago, kokapetl said:

 

I’d like to believe Derick will save her, but he’s got his own issues.

I tend to agree with you.  He likely just wants a functional wife.

At this point I’m more worried about their kids. A lot of the stuff that’s been done to them now won’t be quite so easy to undo. If Derreck pushes for them to go to school outside of the home, or takes parenting classes with Jill then I’ll feel more optimistic. I hate seeing damage propagate through the generations more than anything.