Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[randomania]

This is from the old Testament.  Perhaps someone who is Jewish might be able to explain.  There are lots of restrictions including taking a special bath called a mikva( I probably spelled that wrong), but I think mostly orthodox and Hasidic women do this.

Disclaimer: There's an old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." It's entirely likely that another Jew will pop in with another explanation. I'll give the outline here, and if anyone wants to really dig into it then we should probably move it to the religion thread.

 

The laws about ritual purity after menstruation and childbirth are laid out in Leviticus 12. Basically, when a woman has blood coming out of her woman-parts, she's considered niddah - a type of ritual impurity - and remains so until a set time has passed and she's able to immerse herself in a mikvah. For menstruation, that's a period of about two weeks. There are plenty of theories as to why a woman is niddah until a week after the start of her period; I've always favored the one that points out that most women ovulate about two weeks after the start of their period - which means a couple can resume gettin' it on at the best time to make babies.

 

After giving birth, a woman is niddah for 40 days (for a boy) or 80 days (for a girl). There's no reason given for the difference in times, and generations of scholars have had a collective field day coming up with explanations that fit their particular views. The purification ritual is the same whether a woman has given birth to a boy or a girl, which most scholars I've read interpret as meaning the amount of "impurity" is the same; it's just that for some reason lost to time, a woman goes to the mikvah sooner after giving birth to a boy.

 

That's an outline of one Jewish perspective. What the heck the Duggars are thinking, I can't tell you.

[magpye29]

As far as niddah goes, the separation is not limited to husband and wife.  Orthodox Jewish men do not shake a woman's hand upon meeting/greeting.  Why? Because she might be menstruating and there's no outward indication of such, so to avoid doing that, you just don't touch someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married.  I accidentally put my hand out to shake a rabbi's hand at a synagogue function and he practically leapt backwards to avoid contact (which was actually a worse transgression because he embarrassed me terribly, and of course even as he was launching himself backward, I caught my mistake and pulled my hand back). 

 

The other thing about the mikvah is that you have to do it secretly so no one "knows" you're cleansing yourself.  So you might make a random non-committal excuse to get out of the house, but when you get home you're magically purified and can push the twin beds back together.

 

(I'm a lapsed Catholic married to a formerly wannabe Orthodox Jew, so I got pretty conversant with Orthodox Jewish customs and rituals.)

[3girlsforus]

And, what's wrong with adults looking at porn anywAys?

 

People have differing opinions on this so it only is wrong when it's wrong inside a particular marriage. In other words, Josh claimed to believe what Anna believes, that pornography is sexually immoral and adulterous. Then he snuck around and watched porn. That is being dishonest to their marriage. But in this case the even bigger deal is that he was part of a website whose members are actively searching to have an affair. That is flat out cheating which is wrong in almost every marriage.

[GeeGolly]

Disclaimer: There's an old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." It's entirely likely that another Jew will pop in with another explanation. I'll give the outline here, and if anyone wants to really dig into it then we should probably move it to the religion thread.

 

The laws about ritual purity after menstruation and childbirth are laid out in Leviticus 12. Basically, when a woman has blood coming out of her woman-parts, she's considered niddah - a type of ritual impurity - and remains so until a set time has passed and she's able to immerse herself in a mikvah. For menstruation, that's a period of about two weeks. There are plenty of theories as to why a woman is niddah until a week after the start of her period; I've always favored the one that points out that most women ovulate about two weeks after the start of their period - which means a couple can resume gettin' it on at the best time to make babies.

 

After giving birth, a woman is niddah for 40 days (for a boy) or 80 days (for a girl). There's no reason given for the difference in times, and generations of scholars have had a collective field day coming up with explanations that fit their particular views. The purification ritual is the same whether a woman has given birth to a boy or a girl, which most scholars I've read interpret as meaning the amount of "impurity" is the same; it's just that for some reason lost to time, a woman goes to the mikvah sooner after giving birth to a boy.

 

That's an outline of one Jewish perspective. What the heck the Duggars are thinking, I can't tell you.

From what Mr. Google told me these practices hardly apply to the Duggars. It seems some of the more common explanations have to do with spending time with the child and less to do with refraining from sex.

 

But one quote I found did resemble the Duggars somewhat: 

"As well, since sons were more prized, the longer time at home for a mother with a new born girl would force the family to bond more deeply, over a more extended period of time with the new born girl."

 

But since the Duggars don't leave their home this applies in theory only.

[SongbirdHollow]

And, what's wrong with adults looking at porn anywAys?

 

There's a lot wrong with it, in my opinion, but since that's off topic for this thread I'll leave it at that. :)

[BasqueGirl]

New member here. I've been lurking for many months and decided to throw caution to the wind and join.

 

I'm stil finding my way around, and am leary of posting any links, but on ET Online they have a story stating Josh and Anna are hiding out in the mountains of Arkansas. I thought it was pretty interesting.

There's also a photo of Michelle sneakinly peeking out the front door.

[Churchhoney]

I believe only Derick & Jill and maybe Amy too attend this church. The Duggars homechurch.

 

And people think internet forums deal in irresponsible rumor. We're like a panel of New Yorker factcheckers compared to a lot of the media.

[HumblePi]

Anna's brother is calling Josh a 'pig' on social media.

 

“I have told her I would pay for her to move out here w me and pay for her kidz,” Keller writes. “I don’t think josh will see that this is a big deal and be truly broken till that happens. I beat (sic) my life on the fact that josh has not co.e (sic) to true brokenness yet.”

 

“My parents are preaching stay w him. There more interested in how there daughter getting a divorce will make then look then they are in trying to truly get josh some help and getting Anna and the kids out of there till he has gotten that help. …  I told her I would go get her and let her and her children stay w me. She said she’s staying where she’s at. But I won’t stop trying to get that pig out of our family,” says Keller, adding later that Anna and the kids are the only ones he cares about.

“I tell you who I don’t give a s*** about is that pig she calls her husband.”

 

[Satchels of gold]

I think each marriage has its own "culture" (for lack of a better word ) with it own set of rules. As long as both people agree it's all good. So if your husband looks at porn and you don't care or want to watch too....have at it. But the problem is he's in one marriage and she is in a totally different one. I do think porn should have a disclaimer that this is not what real women's bodies look like and it's not going to be this much fun. Lol

[Sew Sumi]

I'm really wondering about that Gothard mothers-and-daughters conference in Indiana that Michelle, Jinger and Jana were all scheduled to speak at. It ran from Wednesday through Saturday of last week. I can't imagine that they went. But then by the time all this came down, it may have actually been under way. They wouldn't have had much, if any, notice to cancel, I would think.

They were all there. Taking pictures! 

[Churchhoney]

They were all there. Taking pictures! 

 

Wow. Wonder if anyone caused an awkward moment or whether everybody just pretended that nothing at all had happened. That, I suppose. Wow.

[graefin]

I think there is a lot wrong with porn beyond whether marriage partners agree on it. This may be what Songbird was alluding to above:

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2014/06/10/feminist-debates-1-pornography/

[LilyoftheValley]

Hey guys, we've all been ragging on Josh pretty hard these past few days, so maybe we should all take a moment and reflect on the good work he has done in helping the cause of marriage equality.  WTG Josh!  Only your actions could have had such a big impact.  

[Missy Vixen]

Did the prison ministry (at the time) provide health insurance for the mega family that the well paying job would have?

Can you imagine what would happen if one of the mega-family daddies decided he wanted to work in an office? The HR director would lose his or her grip when calculating how much that monthly health insurance premium for a family of 12-21 might be...

[BetyBee]

I would hate for my FB posts to suddenly appear in a jillion different "news" venues (the quotes are because every news organization just cuts and pastes these days - I definitely consider it news or I wouldn't be here!) with poor grammar and swearing at strangers, I'd be mortified.  I understand his caring for his sister and I do believe he's right in his assessment of Josh as a pig who is only sorry he got caught.  But the latest on Daniel's FB post is the same story with the same mistakes over and over and over.  I hope we hear something that is actually new soon.  I especially hope that it's that Anna has left Josh!

[JennyMominFL]

Re why Jewish law has different amounts of day wait after a boy and a girl

My question is on the subject of cleanness of a mother after the birth of a male or female (Leviticus 12). The woman is unclean for seven days after a male birth, and after the birth of a female the mother is unclean for fourteen days. Why is there a difference between the birth of males and females?

Answer:

You write the word "cleanliness," when really it is "ritual purity." A woman's "impurity," or "tumah" in Hebrew, during her menstruation is a built-in component of her natural monthly cycle. Her status of "impurity" demonstrates her descent from a peak level of holiness, when she had the ability to conceive a precious new life through her union with her husband.

The status of "tumah" is not meant to imply sinfulness, degradation or inferiority. On the contrary, it emphasizes, in particular, the great level of holiness inherent in woman's G‑dly power to create and nurture a new life within her body, and the great holiness of a husband and wife's union, in general. Since a woman possesses this lofty potential, she, also bears the possibility of its void; hence her status as tameh, ritually impure. Since she experienced "the touch of death," so to speak, with the loss of potential life, as reflected by her menstruation, she enters this status of "impure."

After having given birth to a baby boy, a woman must wait a minimum of seven days before beginning her pure days; while after a baby girl is born, she must wait a minimum of fourteen days. Since the female child inherently carries a higher degree of holiness, due to her own biological, life creating capability, a greater void, or tumah, remains after her birth. Thus, the greater tumah after a baby girl's birth reflects her greater capacity for holiness (due to her creative powers) and necessitates the longer wait to remove this ritual impurity.

[magpye29]

I don't object to Daniel having posted his offers to Anna online.  If it's true that Anna is being kept incommunicado, he's probably hoping someone else will see it and pass the news along to her.

[LilyoftheValley]

I would hate for my FB posts to suddenly appear in a jillion different "news" venues (the quotes are because every news organization just cuts and pastes these days - I definitely consider it news or I wouldn't be here!) with poor grammar and swearing at strangers, I'd be mortified.  I understand his caring for his sister and I do believe he's right in his assessment of Josh as a pig who is only sorry he got caught.  But the latest on Daniel's FB post is the same story with the same mistakes over and over and over.  I hope we hear something that is actually new soon.  I especially hope that it's that Anna has left Josh!

I have noticed a homefooling trend of you're/your, their/they're/there, then/than, etc being constantly misused by those unfortunate enough to get such an "education".   The swearing I understand; he's ticked and he has every right to be.  

 

Let's face it, the Duggars may have put a little more effort into education than they really wanted to, simply because they were on television and did not want to be embarrassed.  The others, however, clearly have seen fit that their children all have at most an eighth grade education.  I graduated from a private high school that was not approved by the state or something (I cannot recall the exact issue).  To make a long story short, even though I had great SAT scores, I had to take the GED before I could go to the state university.  The GED tests at most eighth grade math and ninth grade English.  It is in no way equivalent to a high school education of twelfth grade math and twelfth grade English.  I got really, really high scores on it, so if these products of homefooling are just passing, then they really don't have much beyond a sixth grade education.   

[floridamom]

It seems that Anna is committed to her marriage; it's a shame that Josh is not.

[CofCinci]

Snooki Makes Dig at Anna Duggar, Ignores Husband's Own Ashley Madison Account

[3girlsforus]

I have noticed a homefooling trend of you're/your, their/they're/there, then/than, etc being constantly misused by those unfortunate enough to get such an "education".   The swearing I understand; he's ticked and he has every right to be.  

 

I know plenty of kids in public schools who get these wrong all the time. Grammar is barely taught in many public schools in this country.

[3girlsforus]

Snooki Makes Dig at Anna Duggar, Ignores Husband's Own Ashley Madison Account

 

So she thinks Anna should leave Josh but she isn't leaving her husband??? Having a reality show really turns you stupid doesn't it? Or maybe only stupid people want to be on a reality show.... Chicken or the egg :-)

[Joe Jitsu913]

I know educated professionals who can't use proper grammar.

[Anne Elk]

Re why Jewish law has different amounts of day wait after a boy and a girl

My question is on the subject of cleanness of a mother after the birth of a male or female (Leviticus 12). The woman is unclean for seven days after a male birth, and after the birth of a female the mother is unclean for fourteen days. Why is there a difference between the birth of males and females?

Answer:

You write the word "cleanliness," when really it is "ritual purity." A woman's "impurity," or "tumah" in Hebrew, during her menstruation is a built-in component of her natural monthly cycle. Her status of "impurity" demonstrates her descent from a peak level of holiness, when she had the ability to conceive a precious new life through her union with her husband.

The status of "tumah" is not meant to imply sinfulness, degradation or inferiority. On the contrary, it emphasizes, in particular, the great level of holiness inherent in woman's G‑dly power to create and nurture a new life within her body, and the great holiness of a husband and wife's union, in general. Since a woman possesses this lofty potential, she, also bears the possibility of its void; hence her status as tameh, ritually impure. Since she experienced "the touch of death," so to speak, with the loss of potential life, as reflected by her menstruation, she enters this status of "impure."

After having given birth to a baby boy, a woman must wait a minimum of seven days before beginning her pure days; while after a baby girl is born, she must wait a minimum of fourteen days. Since the female child inherently carries a higher degree of holiness, due to her own biological, life creating capability, a greater void, or tumah, remains after her birth. Thus, the greater tumah after a baby girl's birth reflects her greater capacity for holiness (due to her creative powers) and necessitates the longer wait to remove this ritual impurity.

 

Thanks for all the info. Is there a link?

 

But wow. Talk about a backhanded compliment. (In case it isn't obvious, I think purity rules are horrible and woman-oppressing. YMMV)

Edited August 26, 2015 by Anne Elk

[Darknight]

Anna's brother is calling Josh a 'pig' on social media.

“I have told her I would pay for her to move out here w me and pay for her kidz,” Keller writes. “I don’t think josh will see that this is a big deal and be truly broken till that happens. I beat (sic) my life on the fact that josh has not co.e (sic) to true brokenness yet.”

“My parents are preaching stay w him. There more interested in how there daughter getting a divorce will make then look then they are in trying to truly get josh some help and getting Anna and the kids out of there till he has gotten that help. … I told her I would go get her and let her and her children stay w me. She said she’s staying where she’s at. But I won’t stop trying to get that pig out of our family,” says Keller, adding later that Anna and the kids are the only ones he cares about.

“I tell you who I don’t give a s*** about is that pig she calls her husband.”

Pa Keller must be feeling like shit. All of his daughters have shitty husband's

[Darknight]

I didn't know about the 7 days after a period, that's crazy. Who plans sex out like that!? What do they do if the mood just strikes them? Do they have to stop and whip out a calendar and make sure it's been 7 days? Do they have alarms on their phone to let them know they are in the clear?

Let jesus guide them through it.

[Anne Elk]

It occurs to me that Anna is probably not going to want to move her kids in with someone who publicly refers to their father as a pig, and frankly I don't blame her for that. 

 

Not that I don't agree with him necessarily. I just think if his goal is to get Anna out of there and not just to rant on Facebook, then he might want to reconsider his tactics.

[Sew Sumi]

So, the Duggar plane flew to Chicago last night. Was it to deliver Smuggles to Gothard rehab or to send Anna into the indoctrinated bosom of her sister Priscilla? I am pretty sure it's the latter. The other sisters are all out of Gothardism in their fashions. 

[Darknight]

I don't know why we all think Josh is unemployable. He wouldn't be, if he weren't lazy, and if he rejected his dad's ridiculous belief that it's wrong to work for a boss (besides JimBob himself). He's a white Christian guy with four kids in Arkansas. If he weren't allergic to manual labor, he'd get hired somewhere doing something useful. He doesn't have a criminal record, and as we found out, a lot of people dismiss what happened with his sisters as childhood curiosity. Cheating on your wife is hardly the unforgivable sin, either; my husband has worked in two male-dominated fields that don't require college degrees (firefighting and construction), and I promise you, no one cares if you cheat on your wife, unless she comes to the station/main office and causes problems. Someone would hire him. He just won't really look.

White christian unemployed. Yet society judges other races and religions. Get a job Josh and be a real man.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Oh snap. Here we go. Not sure if I believe this broad

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-porn-star-danica-dillon-cheating-hotel/

[Darknight]

I kind of disagree with this. Josh is an adult. If he wants to look at porn, he should look at porn. If he wants to have sex with other women, he should do so. Anna's not his mom -- he's not a little boy. The problem is that they don't have an honest relationship, and their entire marriage is based on a completely fake premise. Josh has never been honest about his sexuality with Anna -- what he likes and doesn't like. He has either not been honest, or Anna simply hasn't listened to him about their family size.

If Josh knows that Anna doesn't like him looking at porn, he has to decide if his marriage is more important to him than porn. If Anna thinks she can (or should) monitor him 24/7 to make sure he's not sneaking porn, they really don't have a marriage.

This is all irrelevant, though. They are back under the "umbrella" of JB now, and they aren't going anywhere. JB will cut off that internet, decide what kind of phone Josh gets, and make sure there is at least one "accountability partner" trailing him every second of the day.

I agree. I don't see porn as cheating. But if Josh wants to have sex with other women then he should divorce Anna and have sex with other women.

[3girlsforus]

So, the Duggar plane flew to Chicago last night. Was it to deliver Smuggles to Gothard rehab or to send Anna into the indoctrinated bosom of her sister Priscilla? I am pretty sure it's the latter. The other sisters are all out of Gothardism in their fashions. 

 

Where did you read this? 

[CofCinci]

Oh snap. Here we go. Not sure if I believe this broad

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-porn-star-danica-dillon-cheating-hotel/

She'll need to cough up a little more before I'll believe her.

[Sew Sumi]

Where did you read this? 

I have access to the flight records.  I don't  think I can post them here. But yeah, late night flight into Chitown last night. 

[3girlsforus]

Oh snap. Here we go. Not sure if I believe this broad

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-porn-star-danica-dillon-cheating-hotel/

 

I think I'm evil. I'm almost hoping this is true just to see it if might be enough to get Anna to leave him.

I have access to the flight records.  I don't  think I can post them here. But yeah, late night flight into Chitown last night. 

 

Hmmmm.... interesting.

 

btw my question didn't mean I didn't believe you. I was just wondering :-)

[JennyMominFL]

Thanks for all the info. Is there a link?

 

But wow. Talk about a backhanded compliment. (In case it isn't obvious, I think purity rules are horrible and woman-oppressing. YMMV)

IT's from Chabad.org. I should have posted the link. Sorry

[Isthisok]

Well, if it's Josh, there's a strong MILF-y vibe going there. Could have lived to 112 and never needed to know that.

Yep. I used to be an editor for an adult website, and even I was repulsed thinking about Josh typing and thinking those things. I wish I'd had an accountability partner around to keep me from seeing it. Can't unknow.

[Chai]

 I think the above account is true. I think he's a sick MF and needs serious counseling. Poor Anna! (She has my support and sympathy, but need counseling on how to deal with all this.)

[Morgalisa]

But will Anna think adultery is adultery is adultery...and therefore forgiveable. Doesn't matter who it's with.

[Loves2Dance]

 

Why? Every time he hasn't amended he's failed upwards and everyone tried to make him feel better about being the scum of the earth. When he lost his job, though, and became a scandal and a hissing in the secular world he wanted to belong to, that cheating account went away _fast_.

If Josh truly wanted to be the Fundie man he was born to be...I can't even type that without wanting to puke, he would have put the porn, the fake accounts...etc. etc, away the second he got married. He would have moved on because he'd have the logic and reasoning skills to determine the risk he was at. He's dumb and naive, but I don't think he truly believes he's infallible. if anything, the scandal with his sisters taught him he's not. His actions go from being an asshole to addiction when he does them despite the negative effects on his life; I truly believe he loved Anna (probably still loves her), but the fact that so much pre-dates her points to a larger internal issue. I don't think Josh can quit because I don't think he knows how. Nor do I think he understands the help that is out there for him to use. His family screwed him on that one.

 

I'm not excusing him by any reality or means; but I don't think manning up and working it out Anna is the best step to take. He needs to work on himself and decide what he wants; frankly, I don't see it being with Anna. And that should be an okay decision to make---as long as he provides and stays present in his kids lives. 

[AmyFarrahFowler]

 I think the above account is true. I think he's a sick MF and needs serious counseling. Poor Anna! (She has my support and sympathy, but need counseling on how to deal with all this.)

It will be "christian" counseling by someone totally unsuitable (maybe she'll be shipped off to build a house or something) and that won't be in a timely manner, more as an afterthought so they can say that help was sought.

[HundFan]

I have access to the flight records.  I don't  think I can post them here. But yeah, late night flight into Chitown last night. 

I'm impressed! And smiling at the thought that if the Duggars knew this info was being accessed by someone on this board, they'd be scratching their heads like baffled chimps (no offense to the chimps intended). More please!

[Loves2Dance]

Wow. The photos were taken in uniform, with the nametapes still on - and visible? That is Dumb On An Epic Scale. And the last thing our military needs are nimrods this feeble. Good riddance, Perv.

It was sad; especially because he had a wife who was very religious (Catholic, I think) and she took it really hard. Like truly hard. But she's never left; even now, hasn't left. 

 

I personally think she's an idiot. 

[Loves2Dance]

Oh snap. Here we go. Not sure if I believe this broad

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-porn-star-danica-dillon-cheating-hotel/

And so it begins...

 

However, I definitely need more details before I believe her. And what is up with the obsession with Dill things? Jill married Derrick Dillard, Amy is marrying Dill Pickles, and now Danica Dillon? Seriously, I'm gonna start confusing this stuff now

[Loves2Dance]

Anna 's sister, Priscilla, had vows to keep her husband accountable for his Internet usage. Fireproofing the marriage from porn could have been in Smuganna's vows since they had seen a screening of the movie, but again, this goes back to just how faithful Josh really wanted to be. He wanted to get laid; the rest was lip service.

Apparently that came from Pa Keller?

 

"Finally, after what seemed like an eternity, he asked, “So David, what has God been doing in your life?” For the next forty minutes we had a very sweet time of sharing how God had been leading and guiding. To my joy, he was very open and excited. After a while, he stopped me and just said, “David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”"

 

If pa Keller asked David Waller this; do you think he also asked this of Josh Duggar? If so, Anna was set up to fail by her dad...OUCH!

[kokapetl]

Apparently that came from Pa Keller?

"Finally, after what seemed like an eternity, he asked, “So David, what has God been doing in your life?” For the next forty minutes we had a very sweet time of sharing how God had been leading and guiding. To my joy, he was very open and excited. After a while, he stopped me and just said, “David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”"

If pa Keller asked David Waller this; do you think he also asked this of Josh Duggar? If so, Anna was set up to fail by her dad...OUCH!

It sounds like David had to convince himself he had a desire in the first place.

[Loves2Dance]

It sounds like David had to convince himself he had a desire in the first place.

He and Josiah would have made a lovely couple.

[Wellfleet]

It sounds like David had to convince himself he had a desire in the first place.

 

Definitely. David, since I first became aware of him, has come across to me as hugely over-compensating. Especially with all the "David loves Priscilla" stuff. He sounds like he is literally talking himself into being glad to be married and a father.

[Vermicious Knid]

E! asks a professional if Josh is a sex addict.

http://www.eonline.com/news/689445/is-josh-duggar-a-sex-addict-repression-can-give-way-to-unhealthy-behaviors

[KateUK]

 

I had this discussion with someone ages ago and their way of not making it look so bad was to claim it wasn't about the birth of a girl being more dirty, it was even more super special. See women are this holy being and when they give birth, they lose a bit of that  holiness for a time. She loses less holiness giving birth to a boy than to a girl(because of her eventual super special holy child bearing powers). So it will take her longer to recharge her holiness.  I looked it up to see if there was a better way to explain it than from what I remember and this is what I came up with.

 

Many thanks for this explanation, I was angry on behalf of the girl babies now I am angry on behalf of the boys!

 

My normal brain will never understand their way of thinking.

Edited August 26, 2015 by KateUK