S08.E13: Steel Calzones

[Lisin]

Ok gang, lets please cool it on the back and forth and take a step back. Also, lets keep this thread to about the episode, if you really need to discuss Bethenney's surgeries take it to her thread, but remember to be civil and also that everyone is allowed to their opinion and no one has to prove anything. We're all just giving our impressions here. No one has any more fact than anyone else. We can all think what we want and don't have to justify or prove anything. Lots of posts have gone poof. Thanks.

[ElDosEquis]

What was in the calzones?

[tribeca]

How much do those pizza places charge you to make your own food?  

I really miss Sonya this season.  

[OhGromit]

actually you miss SonJa with a sexy J!  ;-) 

[tribeca]

2 minutes ago, OhGromit said:

actually you miss SonJa with a sexy J!  ;-) 

Yes her too

[bravofan27]

So I watched the episode and I have to say that Carole is way to interested in Jules weight. Carole doesn't like Jules, so she should back off. I personally think that Carole is upset that someone is skinnier than her-- she is trying so hard to make Jules seem crazy. I don't think Jules has a dark side or a lot of secrets. I think she is easily overwhelmed, alone all the time without many friends, and her husband is cheating on her. Plus, it seems like he gives her a hard time when they are alone. He met someone else, so he is leaving. 

When I was going through a bad marriage I became really skinny and didn't eat. I was about 90 pounds at my thinnest, and given Jules height I'd put her at about 95 pounds. I would also say the food that we see Jules eating she is probably throwing up. To be that skinny, you literally have to eat nothing. Like an apple and a few carrot sticks. Maybe a bite or two of a bagel. Carole too.

The stories no one seems to care about-- Sonja and her basement. I thought it was sad. Sonja reminds me of the character from Orange is the New Black, Lorna, who insists that "Michael" is in love with her, and she chases him relentlessly, while insisting they have a great relationship, where in fact he hates her and thinks she is psycho and is the reason she is in prison. In any case, Sonja needs to stop missing her ex, and start hating him, because what he did to her was really shitty, and part of the reason why she is so messed up. She keeps insisting he was her best friend-- NO HE WASN'T. He refuses to acknowledge your existence. He is not a nice person. He is not your friend.

Ramona on this show-- she seems a bit out of it. I think she likes Luann, and she likes Bethanny and feels caught in the middle. So she tells Luann to apologize to Carole. I'm with Luann. She invited her friend over, she runs off with her chef who was dating her niece, and is now living with him. That's skanky. She and Adam are gross.

The best part was the skating where Adam seemed genuinely happy, and Heather and her husband were like, "Skating is great!" and Carole said she had never been skating. And Adam asked Heather if they came skating, and Heather said, "Yes, we bring the boys here."

THEY SKATE WITH THEIR KIDS.

I think Adam is just like a child to Heather, a grown kid that likes to do fun stuff that her kids also like to do. I also think she secretly thinks Carole and Adam are ridiculous. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

Dorinda, please stop exclaiming, "There she is!" when someone arrives at a restaurant or party. 

There are so many things about Jules that confuse me. 

The pearl necklace.

The way she Tim Watleys being Jewish and Asian. 

Listing Michael wanting to have sex with her as one of the reasons that mornings at her home are crazy, in maybe the first episode. Don't cheating husbands lose sexual interest in their wives?

[Lizzing]

3 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

The way she Tim Watleys being Jewish and Asian. 

This slayed me.  Love it!

Maybe you too expected Kramer to be in charge of the "make your own pie" pizzeria!

[Petunia13]

17 hours ago, kassa said:

I'm flashing back to Carole Indiansplaining to Luann how she should refer to her ethnic background, and Luann telling her to buzz off.  Love her or hate her, Luann is the Housewife most likely to immediately shut down attempts to nanny her.  She doesn't do it by turning into a rabid dog like Bethenny, or a shrieking harpie like Ramona or Dorinda, she just announces that she's not having it, advice rejected, go jump in a lake.  It's almost... mature in its directness and clarity.

17 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

I don't think being stubbornly insensitive is really a virtue.

It is very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to lecture a minority on what they should call or identify themselves as 

[motorcitymom65]

My guess is that most people won't agree, but I loved Carole's blog. As one would imagine, there was much conversation before the utensils in the calzone about eating in general. Carole was talking about her own issues with food - some of them being that she doesn't always eat well or at the appropriate time. They were having a conversation about food, rituals, etc., but we didn't see any of that. To the audience, it looks like Carole's questions just come out of left field, but there was more to the conversation than that. It appears that Jules talks about her eating habits and issues very often around the gals, but we don't see most of that on the show. 

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/blogs/carole-radziwill/carole-radziwill-i-think-she-is-in

[Yours Truly]

35 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

My guess is that most people won't agree, but I loved Carole's blog. As one would imagine, there was much conversation before the utensils in the calzone about eating in general. Carole was talking about her own issues with food - some of them being that she doesn't always eat well or at the appropriate time. They were having a conversation about food, rituals, etc., but we didn't see any of that. To the audience, it looks like Carole's questions just come out of left field, but there was more to the conversation than that. It appears that Jules talks about her eating habits and issues very often around the gals, but we don't see most of that on the show. 

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/blogs/carole-radziwill/carole-radziwill-i-think-she-is-in

But where's the part where she immediately starts gabbing about it with Beth? Is all that benign too? I think it's funny how on these shows these women start speaking in what I call panic in order to justify their missteps and mishandling of a situation. "I wanted to leave"... Really, it's that disturbing? Also, she herself talks about the meds Jules has and that she's also drinking wine. They all know she has hurt herself so the pain meds are not some sort of "OMG, we've caught her in the bedroom popping her 3rd xanax" moment so again. The problem is the lack of perspective and context. Who hasn't been in an awkwardly charged moment with other grown ups? Shit most people maneuver through it rather well, maybe a bit clumsily but still it happens and honestly I can even get on board with an in the moment WTF side eye but now weeks later and after seeing it the need to blog so adamantly (no pun intended.. Hee) in the direction of Jules behavior being way more deeper than her being loopy from the pain meds mixed with the wine and more connected with her ED than it actually was is pretty self serving and ridiculous. But that's her story and she's sticking to it. She's exhibiting symptoms of a disorder she admits to having and admits that it's managed not cured. So now when she makes stupid decisions and has lapses of judgements oh I don't know like mixing pain med and alcohol (I've done this, come interview me Miss ABC interviewer) it always has to lead back to her issues with food. I mean, and even if it does...... so what. It seems a person with an eating disorder will have a lot of things lead back to her issues with food. You see Carole likes to put this inquister, confused harmless spin on her interactions but when you watch her facial expressions (yeah, I know hard to watch) you see the looks of "ummmm ok", "really?", you know just think of Kandi Burgess whenever anyone is expressing an opinion to her.. That's what I'm getting at. Carole says she was just trying to get to know Jules and was giving her an opportunity to talk about her story but when you see them interact Carole has this judgy body language and reactions that say "yeah uh-huh, you're coo-coo cadoo lady".  Not the same thing as just innocent conversation.

1 hour ago, Petunia13 said:

It is very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to lecture a minority on what they should call or identify themselves as 

Pretty much.

[motorcitymom65]

5 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

But where's the part where she immediately starts gabbing about it with Beth? Is all that benign too? I think it's funny how on these shows these women start speaking in what I call panic in order to justify their missteps and mishandling of a situation. "I wanted to leave"... Really, it's that disturbing? Also, she herself talks about the meds Jules has and that she's also drinking wine. They all know she has hurt herself so the pain meds are not some sort of "OMG, we've caught her in the bedroom popping her 3rd xanax" moment so again. The problem is the lack of perspective and context. Who hasn't been in an awkwardly charged moment with other grown ups? Shit most people maneuver through it rather well, maybe a bit clumsily but still it happens and honestly I can even get on board with an in the moment WTF side eye but now weeks later and after seeing it the need to blog so adamantly (no pun intended.. Hee) in the direction of Jules behavior being way more deeper than her being loopy from the pain meds mixed with the wine and more connected with her ED than it actually was is pretty self serving and ridiculous. But that's her story and she's sticking to it. She's exhibiting symptoms of a disorder she admits to having and admits that it's managed not cured. So now when she makes stupid decisions and has lapses of judgements oh I don't know like mixing pain med and alcohol (I've done this, come interview me Miss ABC interviewer) it always has to lead back to her issues with food. I mean, and even if it does...... so what. It seems a person with an eating disorder will have a lot of things lead back to her issues with food. You see Carole likes to put this inquister, confused harmless spin on her interactions but when you watch her facial expressions (yeah, I know hard to watch) you see the looks of "ummmm ok", "really?", you know just think of Kandi Burgess whenever anyone is expressing an opinion to her.. That's what I'm getting at. Carole says she was just trying to get to know Jules and was giving her an opportunity to talk about her story but when you see them interact Carole has this judgy body language and reactions that say "yeah uh-huh, you're coo-coo cadoo lady".  Not the same thing as just innocent conversation.

Pretty much.

But don't you think everyone sees something different in things like "body language"? I saw nothing at all like you described. I saw someone who was actually listening intently, who seemed interested and engaged in the topic at hand. Someone who was also shocked? Yes, of course, because it was shocking. Is it possible that someone who just doesn't like Carole (not addressed at you specifically) will automatically assume that she was being judgy based on that dislike? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible that had we seen the entire conversation and how it began that some would view it differently? If we would have seen Jules asking Carole about some of her own stuff? Maybe, maybe not. I've said it before and I will say it again, the most interesting part of this all is that we are only really hearing from Carole and Beth, with a few small remarks from Dorinda. Anyone believe that the others are not asked about Jules and her behavior in their TH interviews? Anyone believe Ramona has no opinion about the crazy we have seen? Anyone believe that Jules only told her story to Carole and Beth?  I find that highly unlikely, but this is the narrative of the season. 

[shoegal]

1 hour ago, Petunia13 said:

It is very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to lecture a minority on what they should call or identify themselves as 

I think it's very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to proclaim minority status.  Let's not pretend LuAnn is anything other than a privileged white woman.

[Yours Truly]

26 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

But don't you think everyone sees something different in things like "body language"? I saw nothing at all like you described. I saw someone who was actually listening intently, who seemed interested and engaged in the topic at hand. Someone who was also shocked? Yes, of course, because it was shocking. Is it possible that someone who just doesn't like Carole (not addressed at you specifically) will automatically assume that she was being judgy based on that dislike? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible that had we seen the entire conversation and how it began that some would view it differently? If we would have seen Jules asking Carole about some of her own stuff? Maybe, maybe not. I've said it before and I will say it again, the most interesting part of this all is that we are only really hearing from Carole and Beth, with a few small remarks from Dorinda. Anyone believe that the others are not asked about Jules and her behavior in their TH interviews? Anyone believe Ramona has no opinion about the crazy we have seen? Anyone believe that Jules only told her story to Carole and Beth?  I find that highly unlikely, but this is the narrative of the season. 

It's the shocked reaction that I find to be suspect. Why is she shocked? She's speaking with a women who has already admitted to having the disorder? So when she shares information that sounds like she's struggling with it why is that alarming? That's like being alarmed at seeing a cancer patient with no hair. It's ridiculous. Why is she so confused with Jules unusual behavior when Jules herself highlights the meds she's on (which can easily be deduced that it's for her recent injury)  and you see her mixing it with alcohol? What's with all the animated reactions? Sure some of that interaction was pretty mild and I won't exaggerate however there's no way to explain her immediate need to go jabbering with trapjaw Beth. There's also no way to explain why in her blog she's still insinuating that Jules and others are the one's being irresponsible about the handling of the subject. It reeks of Carole suggesting that Jules is not displaying her Eating Disorder in the most productive way and I call bullshit.

6 minutes ago, shoegal said:

I think it's very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to proclaim minority status.  Let's not pretend LuAnn is anything other than a privileged white woman.

Wow!

Edited July 6, 2016 by Yours Truly

[abbottrabbit]

10 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Dorinda, please stop exclaiming, "There she is!" when someone arrives at a restaurant or party. 

There are so many things about Jules that confuse me. 

The pearl necklace.

The way she Tim Watleys being Jewish and Asian. 

Listing Michael wanting to have sex with her as one of the reasons that mornings at her home are crazy, in maybe the first episode. Don't cheating husbands lose sexual interest in their wives?

 

"Tim Watleys" as a verb is my new favorite thing ever. 

On the cheater sex... depends on the cheater. I wish I could remember where I heard or read this, but basically, some cheaters have "monogamous dicks" -- so if they're banging the mistress, they'll have less sex with the wife. Some don't, and will maintain a regular sex life with the wife even while they're seeing the side girl. Some guys will even step up their sex lives with their wives, either to throw her off track or because sex, to them, is like potato chips -- the more you eat, the more you want. 

(I just made an ew face at myself for that one). 

[pbutler111]

2 hours ago, Petunia13 said:

It is very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to lecture a minority on what they should call or identify themselves as 

She didn't.  She lectured Luann.

[KungFuBunny]

2 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

My guess is that most people won't agree, but I loved Carole's blog. As one would imagine, there was much conversation before the utensils in the calzone about eating in general. Carole was talking about her own issues with food - some of them being that she doesn't always eat well or at the appropriate time. They were having a conversation about food, rituals, etc., but we didn't see any of that. To the audience, it looks like Carole's questions just come out of left field, but there was more to the conversation than that. It appears that Jules talks about her eating habits and issues very often around the gals, but we don't see most of that on the show. 

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/blogs/carole-radziwill/carole-radziwill-i-think-she-is-in

Jules signed on to be on a Reality Show. She auditioned and she went through an entire process before signing a contract. If Dorinda is truly the friend who brought her on board then Jules knew about this show and most likely has seen the show. The contract gives her no editing control. The only control she has is what food/drink goes into her mouth and what words come out of her mouth. She disclosed her openness of her ED to both Bethenny, Carole, Dorinda and did this also in a talking head shot – on camera with sound.

In every scene these ladies pretend like the camera crew, sound guys and grips are not there. The only time they look and talk into the cameras like Kevin Spacey in House of Cards is in their talking head shots. As one of the viewing audience I have to pretend like there are hidden cameras everywhere and we are viewing private real interactions with these ladies. Oh and pretend like I don’t see the mic pack at the back of their shirts. They are all conscious of the cameras, maybe some are desensitized the more years they’ve been on. If each cast member was to allowed to think about what to say/what not to say for 30 minutes…we’d have Crickets City.

Any one of them signing onto a reality show is going to be judged. On their appearance, their weight, the boob jobs, the botox, the lip fillers, the hair, the clothes choices, AND their antics and wacky behaviors.

Like Carole, I’m not a doctor. Had I met someone recently, and seen them socially more than 20 times who disclosed they had an ED…this would not have prompted me to go out and buy a How To Treat A Recovering ED Etiquette book. Would I ask questions if said person told me they were open about it, probably and I probably wouldn’t know how to process it either. I also would not take that to mean, I can only talk to you privately and one on one about the ED.  If said person did something I found odd or bizarre, at the very least, my eyes would bug out. Would I talk about it with someone else who witnessed the same behavior, yup?  Would I call another friend who doesn’t know this person and talk about them, yup.

Since I’m acting Carole/Bethenny-like I’m putting my hair in pigtails and going for a ride on the handle bars of a bike before I fall to the city streets sobbing

[Petunia13]

55 minutes ago, shoegal said:

I think it's very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to proclaim minority status.  Let's not pretend LuAnn is anything other than a privileged white woman.

9 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

She didn't.  She lectured Luann.

Yeah well Carole believed she must be part of that minority because she informed Luann to call herself Native American.

And Carole didn't say a damn thing about Luann being too white or whatever you guys are saying. Just that she didn't use the proper term. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Petunia13

[shoegal]

7 minutes ago, Petunia13 said:

Yeah well Carole believed she must be part of that minority because she informed Luann to call herself Native American.

And Carole didn't say a damn thing about Luann being too white or whatever you guys are saying. Just that she didn't use the proper term. 

Taking this to LuAnn's thread.

[Petunia13]

45 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

She didn't.  She lectured Luann.

 

26 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Taking this to LuAnn's thread.

Do people have to look or behave a certain way in order to claim their genetic history? 

Is there as certain criteria. I'm half Native American but don't shoot arrows or do dream interpretation. People looking at me see I'm mixed with different races. No one should really correct someone on their race or if they call themselves black vs African American or if they identify as male but were assigned female or whatever it's rude and dicey. I'm glad she's claims her family history. 

[lunastartron]

1 hour ago, pbutler111 said:

She didn't.  She lectured Luann.

 

1 hour ago, shoegal said:

I think it's very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to proclaim minority status.  Let's not pretend LuAnn is anything other than a privileged white woman.

1 hour ago, pbutler111 said:

She didn't.  She lectured Luann.

1) Carole made the all-prescriptive assertion "anyone past the third grade" knows "not to use" the term "Indian" because "it's racist."

So she was both ignorantly talking out of her in the context in question and applying that ignorance to others aside from LuAnn: "anyone." 

If Carole cares so passionately and deeply about racial sensitivies and the plight of the systematically oppressed and marginalized, she should definitely educate herself better before issuing misinformed pronouncements from her own perch of white and monetary privilege. 

She simply saw an opportunity to take a jab at LuAnn and availed herself of it prior to any mockery on Lu's part. 

2) Lu did not describe herself as a minority. She initially noted that her dad was Indian. That was enough to precipitate Carole's white savior-rich foray into racial semantics. Didn't see LuAnn ever assert that she had a more substantive claim to Algonquin cultures than she does. 

3) I think discussions of the physical manifestations of race and external ethnic identifiers are complex. I don't see how LuAnn is some reality TV version of Elizabeth Warren self-identifying in Dept of Labor statistics as NA/AI/being touted publically as a woman of color on the basis of high cheekbones just because she notes her lineage in cocktail party conversation. 

Aesthetic privilege is also subjective. Is Nicole Richie entitled to characterize herself as "black" even though she had blonde hair and a medium to fair complexion for much of her mid-aughties celebrity? 

[film noire]

2 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

 Would I ask questions if said person told me they were open about it, probably and I probably wouldn’t know how to process it either. 

 

Hopefully you wouldn't do what Bethenny and Carol have done all season so far -- endlessly remark upon or criticize Jules' body size and eating issues -- because doing that to someone doesn't help you process or understand their issues better. (Ironically, those two ignorant gossips have become the role model of how NOT to respond to someone living with ED -- so well done, laydeez! A toast to that invincible bunch, two dinosaurs surviving the crunch, let's hear it for the ladies who (don't) brunch -- everybody rise!)

Part of my annoyance with these two mouthbreathers is how badly, how baldly, they try to front this shit as "concern".  And how inappropriately indignant they get when someone on twitter calls them out (and manages to do so without calling them whores or sluts).

And Carole, come sit by me (and Alice Roosevelt Longworth). I have a long list of questions for you. You've made the death of your friends and grief over their loss part of your storyline (fair game, by your books) so let me ask you - how do you think JFK Jr and Carolyn (especially her, she was notoriously private and openly contemptuous of the press) would feel about you pimping their tragedy out for air time? (If pimping is too  harsh, we can use "showboating" instead -- it's what you accused Jules of yesterday on twitter). My guess  -- not having processed any of this -- is that Carolyn would feel completely betrayed and horrified by what you've become,  and perhaps even wonder if you ever really loved her at all. (And so you know, that's just me following your lead and trying to make sense of your storyline, not me being thoughtless and cruel for airtime.)

Edited July 6, 2016 by film noire
tpoys typso tposy typos!

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

Quote

 

In my experience, Advance Directives are asked about, offered, in pre op paperwork not by a doc. It is very common to be asked, as a matter of fact for appointments like strep throat or annual physicals. Insurance companies and institutions *like* their customers to have advance directives (a term that groups living will type stuff and Proxy info) because it can save them a lot of money and time if this stuff is in writing before anything ever is a thought, or god forbid goes wrong. It is part of NORMAL pre op paperwork and I seriously doubt that the doctor told Bethenny she needed one in a room going over the medical issues- nurses, medical assistant, and receptionists handle that.

She freaked out because all of it adds up to her fear that THEIR DAUGHTER (she's not just Bethenny's daughter) and THEIR DAUGHTER'S inheritance of Bethenny's estate would go to Jason Hoppy. That's her real issue.

[Yours Truly]

37 minutes ago, film noire said:

Hopefully you wouldn't do what Bethenny and Carol have done all season so far -- endlessly remark upon or criticize Jules' body size and eating issues -- because doing that to someone doesn't help you process or understand their issues better. (Ironically, those two ignorant gossips have become the role model of how NOT to respond to someone living with ED -- so well done, laydeez! A toast to that invincible bunch, two dinosaurs surviving the crunch, let's hear it for the ladies who (don't) brunch -- everybody rise!)

Part of my annoyance with these two mouthbreathers is how badly, how baldly, they try to front this shit as "concern".  And how inappropriately indignant they get when someone on twitter calls them out (and manages to do so without calling them whores or sluts).

And Carole, come sit by me (and Alice Roosevelt Longworth). I have a long list of questions for you. You've made the death of your friends and grief over their loss part of your storyline (fair game, by your books) so let me ask you - how do you think JFK Jr and Carolyn (especially her, she was notoriously private and openly contemptuous of the press) would feel about you pimping their tragedy out for air time? (If pimping is too  harsh, we can use "showboating" instead -- it's what you accused Jules of yesterday on twitter). My guess  -- not having processed any of this -- is that Carolyn would feel completely betrayed and horrified by what you've become,  and perhaps even wonder if you ever really loved her at all. (And so you know, that's just me trying to make sense of your storyline, not me being thoughtless and cruel for airtime.)

Carole can't ever just say... "Ooooooooo yeah, that wasn't my best moment". Or, "yeah that wasn't too cool I didn't really need rush over to Beth to pick apart the possible mental health issues of another cast member who is in the same vicinity". "Yup I could see how that could seem a bit overwhelming to Jules". She's always got some angle to explain away what we see present itself on our TV screen. Sure she can downplay her conversation somewhat, whatever but why don't we get to her Kiking with Beth? That wasn't a nice exchange. Someone do some mental gymnastics to cover that totally uncalled for discussion cause I for one don't see it as justified. Oh wait that's what Carole does, mental gymnastics to tweet tweet tweet and blog of course.  She's always got some stupid comeback that simplifies matters when she's caught behaving shady. "It's reality TV isn't it?" "Didn't Jules want to tell her story?" "I was just affording her the opportunity to talk about it on camera?' 'Isn't this the way it's done, ya know getting to know one another?" Or my favorite, "It's reality TV people, I only play an asshole on TV..'

Her problem is that instead of admitting that she does some fucked up shit she condescends to the viewers by spouting "explanations" and implies that people just don't understand what's REALLY going on. Yeah, right you can keep your bridge I ain't buyin' it Bucky!

Edited July 6, 2016 by Yours Truly

[motorcitymom65]

4 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

It's the shocked reaction that I find to be suspect. Why is she shocked? She's speaking with a women who has already admitted to having the disorder? So when she shares information that sounds like she's struggling with it why is that alarming? That's like being alarmed at seeing a cancer patient with no hair. It's ridiculous. Why is she so confused with Jules unusual behavior when Jules herself highlights the meds she's on (which can easily be deduced that it's for her recent injury)  and you see her mixing it with alcohol? What's with all the animated reactions? Sure some of that interaction was pretty mild and I won't exaggerate however there's no way to explain her immediate need to go jabbering with trapjaw Beth. There's also no way to explain why in her blog she's still insinuating that Jules and others are the one's being irresponsible about the handling of the subject. It reeks of Carole suggesting that Jules is not displaying her Eating Disorder in the most productive way and I call bullshit.

Wow!

Shocked for so many reasons.  She sat there and told Carole that she doesn't really think about food, her weight, or her ED.  Then she went on to say she cannot look at the scale to see how much she weighs. Then she said she sees a therapist several times a week, but she has nothing to talk about with the Therapist. Then she talks about putting meds in the food. Then she puts utensils in the food. Then she seems shocked to hear that Adderall suppresses your appetite. She acted as if she had never heard that before, which is beyond strange. There were as many reasons for Carole to be shocked by her behavior as there were for many that watched the show to be shocked. The first few pages of this forum are dedicated to people using words like "shocking, disturbing, scary, etc.". And we are all knew just as Carole does that she has an ED. We were not sitting beside Jules in a restaurant having that conversation or watching her do those things. We were sitting in our homes or wherever, yet still many were shocked by what they saw. So I can certainly see why Carole would be shocked. Shocking behavior tends to shock a lot of people. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by motorcitymom65

[motorcitymom65]

5 hours ago, lunastartron said:

 

1) Carole made the all-prescriptive assertion "anyone past the third grade" knows "not to use" the term "Indian" because "it's racist."

So she was both ignorantly talking out of her in the context in question and applying that ignorance to others aside from LuAnn: "anyone." 

If Carole cares so passionately and deeply about racial sensitivies and the plight of the systematically oppressed and marginalized, she should definitely educate herself better before issuing misinformed pronouncements from her own perch of white and monetary privilege. 

She simply saw an opportunity to take a jab at LuAnn and availed herself of it prior to any mockery on Lu's part. 

2) Lu did not describe herself as a minority. She initially noted that her dad was Indian. That was enough to precipitate Carole's white savior-rich foray into racial semantics. Didn't see LuAnn ever assert that she had a more substantive claim to Algonquin cultures than she does. 

3) I think discussions of the physical manifestations of race and external ethnic identifiers are complex. I don't see how LuAnn is some reality TV version of Elizabeth Warren self-identifying in Dept of Labor statistics as NA/AI/being touted publically as a woman of color on the basis of high cheekbones just because she notes her lineage in cocktail party conversation. 

Aesthetic privilege is also subjective. Is Nicole Richie entitled to characterize herself as "black" even though she had blonde hair and a medium to fair complexion for much of her mid-aughties celebrity? 

Actually, Carole didn't say it was "racist", she said it was "politically incorrect". Many people would agree that this is the case. Others would not agree. But if words matter, calling someone a racist is very different than calling them politically incorrect. 

Carole thought that Lu and the others (I think Sonja) were making fun of Native Americans. When she put her hand over her mouth and did the War Whoop, Carole couldn't believe what she was seeing (this qualifies Lu to be a surrogate for Donald Trump). It shocked me as well, even as someone who really liked Lu. Carole said she thought she was mocking an entire group of people and she didn't like it. Perhaps Carole was wrong to make such a big deal about it, but it was clear she felt strongly about it. I've never understood why this was such a big deal. Carole's reaction didn't bother Lu one little bit. She continued to have a good time and just blew it off. 

I can see others thinking that Carole was too indignant, to judgmental, that she had some of her facts wrong. I fell in love with her more than ever, because after years of watching these shows and largely feeling stupid for it, there was someone who was interested in things outside of shopping or vacations. Someone who thought about things that didn't necessarily involve themselves. Someone that probably actually votes and knows what is going on in the world. Refreshing all around. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by motorcitymom65

[lunastartron]

3 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Actually, Carole didn't say it was "racist", she said it was "politically incorrect". Many people would agree that this is the case. Others would not agree. But if words matter, calling someone a racist is very different than calling them politically incorrect. 

Carole thought that Lu and the others (I think Sonja) were making fun of Native Americans. When she put her hand over her mouth and did the War Whoop, Carole couldn't believe what she was seeing (this qualifies Lu to be a surrogate for Donald Trump). It shocked me as well, even as someone who really liked Lu. Carole said she thought she was mocking an entire group of people and she didn't like it. Perhaps Carole was wrong to make such a big deal about it, but it was clear she felt strongly about it. I've never understood why this was such a big deal. Carole's reaction didn't bother Lu one little bit. She continued to have a good time and just blew it off. 

I can see others thinking that Carole was too indignant, to judgmental, that she had some of her facts wrong. I fell in love with her more than ever, because after years of watching these shows and largely feeling stupid for it, there was someone who was interested in things outside of shopping or vacations. Someone who thought about things that didn't necessarily involve themselves. Someone that probably actually votes and knows what is going on in the world. Refreshing all around. 

These are my sources for the "racist" quote. I do very clearly recall Carole asserting that "anyone past the third grade" knows not to use "Indian" in real time during the discourse at the dinner as well as trumpeting "they don't refer to themselves as 'Indians'."

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/08/06/tonights-real-housewives-features-misinformed-debate-over-un-racist-remark-127742

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/08/07/other-things-said-about-american-indians-real-housewives-new-york-city-127963

Also, Carole herself wrote in her blog that "Indian" is a "pejorative" designation. "Politically correct" and "pejorative" = "racist" to me in any case. YMMV. I do believe that precision is important but, to me, we're talking the distinction between synonyms here and actual mutually exclusive articulations - either Indians "do" or "do not" refer to themselves as Indians. Either it is regarded as a "pejorative" epithet/term within collective Indian Country or it is not.

Bolding so that this part of the post corresponds to the related sections of the post to which I'm replying herein. Carole's ignorance on the issue about which she erroneously appointed herself spokesman matters because she is actually perpetrating the same transgression about which she says she is nominally so concerned: neglecting and erasing Indian perspectives - and thus marginalizing and disenfranchising their perspectives - from her privileged position of white affluence, power, and obliviousness. If she cared so deeply about the annihilation of Indian culture and populations, she would presumably be acquainted with the American Indian Movement, Indian Country Today, the writings of Sherman Alexie, etc etc.

You don't get points for benevolently taking up the mantle of an oppressed people when you haven't even bothered to familiarize yourself with the nuances of what you're talking about. In that respect, she's just as qualified to act as a Trump surrogate as Lu and most certainly does not "know what's going on in the world" - at least in the context over which she decided to insert herself.

To me, personally, that "many others would agree this is the case" is problematic. I'm all for intellectual independence and diversity of opinion. I found Lu's war-whooping intellectually offensive but not viscerally so; to me, Jacques's "a polite way of saying 'savage'" was way more jaw-dropping.

But it doesn't really matter if "others would agree this is the case" unless they are part of Indian culture and communities in the same way that it's not acceptable for Caucasian majorities to dictate whether or not black people reappropriate and refashion the n-word.

Edited July 6, 2016 by lunastartron

[DelicateDee]

8 hours ago, shoegal said:

I think it's very rude and inappropriate for a privileged white woman to proclaim minority status.  Let's not pretend LuAnn is anything other than a privileged white woman.

Yeah, who does she think she is, Elizabeth Warren!

[beesknees]

I dunno.  I'm on the fence about referring to someone (or classifying them) as "Native American" vs. "Indian".  I'm half NA however many of my relatives who are 100% full-blooded Native American refer to themselves on the regular as being "Indian".  They do not see it as something derogatory.  

My relatives that live on the "rez" (NA Indian reservation) in the state where we reside frequently use the term "Indian" more than NA (now that I think of it).  I don't have a problem with Lu Ann claiming to be an Algonquin.  Damn it if her dad was Algonquin (or partly) then Lu Ann can claim that.  Who is anyone to judge.  Just like a poster up thread said it's like dictating to African Americans whether they can refer to themselves and each other via the "N" word.

I invited my friend to one of our annual statewide pow-wows last year and she was blown away that some of our tribal members who participated in tthe dance ceremonies and sporting events were blond and blue-eyed (not kidding but we accept them just the same). Carol should probably just shut it with her self-righteous ass. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by beesknees

[Yours Truly]

16 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Shocked for so many reasons.  She sat there and told Carole that she doesn't really think about food, her weight, or her ED.  Then she went on to say she cannot look at the scale to see how much she weighs. Then she said she sees a therapist several times a week, but she has nothing to talk about with the Therapist. Then she talks about putting meds in the food. Then she puts utensils in the food. Then she seems shocked to hear that Adderall suppresses your appetite. She acted as if she had never heard that before, which is beyond strange. There were as many reasons for Carole to be shocked by her behavior as there were for many that watched the show to be shocked. The first few pages of this forum are dedicated to people using words like "shocking, disturbing, scary, etc.". And we are all knew just as Carole does that she has an ED. We were not sitting beside Jules in a restaurant having that conversation or watching her do those things. We were sitting in our homes or wherever, yet still many were shocked by what they saw. So I can certainly see why Carole would be shocked. Shocking behavior tends to shock a lot of people. 

"Shocking" "disturbing" are good words to deflect from the fact that Carole shouldn't have even be getting as invasive as she was.. The women was on pain meds and mixing with alcohol. It should be required protocol to suspend the pearl clothing when filming under these conditions. For real but whatever. I've just finished watching the scene and this is what I see. Jules putting toppings on her calzone and skipping something commenting about kosher whatever and Carole asks her about her topping choices by referring to "her issues with food". She, Carole takes a pretty benign moment to suggest oh excuse me innocently ask her if her topping choices are based on her issues with food and you see Jules reaction and she's all like "no it's about taste thats all" (paraphrase). That sparks a defensive dialogue about Jules weight where Jules shares that she turns around and doesn't look at the scale cause she doesn't want to know the number cause she doesn't want to focus on a number and then guess what Carole then asks her? How much she weighs.. Umm damn bitch the girl just said that she doesn't look so how the fuck should she know? Number one, number two she just explained to you that having a number in her head isn't a good thing and she doesn't want to have a number to focus on so why would you ask her to even come up with a number? No. Carole was ridiculous.. They show the flash back of Jules explaining why she wants it out there. It seems that she knows it can get away from her so she's taking precautions.. That's not someone in denial thats someone very aware of her problems.. 

Also the rude assertion that "you shouldn't be on adderol" just like that. Just blurted it out like she's right on the money. She explains her reasoning afterwards but the initial comment was just rude. Newsflash. My mom was on medicine that was bad for her glaucoma and the pharmacist caught it and was surprised that she was perscribed that because she was also on something that conflicted with the effectiveness of that medicine but when I asked her doctor thinking it was a mistake the doctor explained that her ailments were so pronounced that sometime there's no getting around the need to prescribe the conflicting medicine. So Carole's comment about Jules not supposed to be taking adderol is a joke because if there's an undeniable need for her to be on it then The fact that the side effects may cause challenges for her other affliction just has to be dealt with and doctors make these determination all the time.

Oh and let's touch on the first thing out of Beth's mouth when they go out to smoke.. "She's going to smoke cause the food is coming" huh? So unless she plans on smoking half a pack until the food is brought eaten and taken away what the hell does that have to do with anything? But regardless that's the first comment and Carole doesn't miss a beat. Also what's with all the judging about Jules GUESS about her weight. It was a guess considering she just let Carole know that she never actually looks at the numbers on the scale.. This was a seriously manufactured OMG moment. Hey, react to the fact that she's acting loopy cause she was but the more appropriate reaction was "Oh lord, homegirl can't hold her liquor and is messy not to mention lame with that stupid "joke", someone tell the girl NEVER to mix pain meds and alcohol ever again" but for them to tie all of that back to her ED and also suggest there is extra stuff wrong with her besides the fact that she was on a bad cocktail that night is all kinds of assholery.

That exchange was nowhere near what Carole claims it to be after the fact. She can lose me with all that.. Bye. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by Yours Truly
post was done on phone so autocorrect kicked my ass. Too many errors to ignore. LOL

[beesknees]

You know what I really find offensive?  Those two borderline ED morons Bobble Head (Bethenny) and Skeletor  (Carole) clicking their thick tongues and talking shit about someone else's eating disorder.  Now that's rich.

[jinjer]

I thought it was telling that Jules this week said she felt that Carole was watching every item that Jules put on her pizza.  So Jules was feeling Carole's prying eyes.  That probably started the whole fork and knife debacle.  And I rewatched the episode before this week's, and Bethenny didn't eat any of Jule's calzone.  Carole cut into it, and they were all watching.  No one took a piece. Jules is definitely over the razor-sharp eyes of Bethenny and Carole watching her every eating move this week.  

[Petunia13]

This only just occurred to me but I wonder if Jules acted in a peculiar and destructive way at the pizza parlor because Carole was staring at her and commenting on her choices. Jules was in patient and is now in aftercare and that's what they do. When you're in the edu you are under surveillance eating and you can't break up food or fidget and you are timed.  For some that's very difficult and maybe when Carole did that it brought up those feelings of helplessness and fear.

I'm not sure if Jules aftercare is IOP but if it is they have meals too (usually the therapist brings them in) and it is similar but less strict. As far as Caroles triggering questions about her weight it's very normal for a disordered patient not to know their weight and even after recovery doctors familiar with their file will not disclose it. If Jules knew it it would be obvious she is breaking her recovery and probably has a hidden scale in her house. 

[FamilyVan]

Quote

That is her biggest fear, that Jason and his family would be there for/raise her/their daughter if something happened to her. God Forbid that Bryn knows what a normal family is like, what a normal family's love is like.

If Jason is an example of the type of person and character that comes out of being raised in this family, I would be worried also.

[Trooper York]

You know I kind of wish Jules had stuck the fork into Bethenny instead of the calzone. Because lets face it she is done.

[aradia22]

For all that Bethenny talks about sex and vulgarities, I'm kind of glad that Jules scarred her with the vagina photo.

I still don't understand Bethenny and Jules. B keeps undermining her, ignoring her attempts to have a storyline, getting in little digs, but I think she likes her? Maybe it's just typical mean girl behavior. Tolerating people as long as they stay in their place.

Also, we've seen it before but wow, B can start crying at the drop of a hat.

Carole, seriously, stop concern-trolling Jules. Of all people, you do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to eating disorders. (That was not an Aviva joke.) Same with Bethenny. Come on, ladies. The deflection isn't fooling anyone. I don't know. I'm a little defensive when it comes to Jules since I feel like there could be a tragic Taylor Armstrong kind of vibe to her if they push her too hard. You know someone has real problems. Not the BS made up problems they trot out for this show. And they just pile on. It's gross.

Lol at Ramona running away with the ceramic plate.

Baking silverware into the calzone was a bad joke but I don't think it's cause for concern. God, get your own story, Carole, so you can stop policing everyone else.

I liked Dorinda's crazy cape.

I feel like we're so close to a Dorinda advice book.

As much as I sympathize with Jules when it comes to Carole and B, I do think she's laying it on a little thick with no one taking care of her. You have a nanny and I'm sure many people who help you get through your day.

I wonder if Kevin feels like family. He better get a bonus for handling the bloody pillow.

Ah! Sonja the high class hoarder. Are those really interns? Her nosehair trimmer? Those poor boys...

LOL, that B's worst nightmare is not that Brynn would lose her specifically but that Brynn "would have to be with them always." How acrimonious was that divorce? Also, loving Kevin. He's not having any of it.

Oh, God. Dorinda's sequin disco-ball top. Luann's dog tag fringe necklace. Ramona's just Ramona so I'm not phased.

Carole is ridiculous. How many apologies do you want?

LOL, imagine if Ramona was a sports commentator.

"I don't want to have a cup of tea with her" as she polishes off a gigantic wine glass. Countess for the win. I like her feeling powerful and sassy. Who cares what the rumors are? Go get married.