The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[Zella]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I read recently that this visit by Jeremy and Jinger to CA was a forshadowing of them moving to CA.  Did anyone else see that. I'm trying to find the link.  I could easily see that happening. 

I haven't read that recently, but I am pretty sure someone on here has speculated on that in the past when he first enrolled, due to the online theology program he is in, which apparently cannot be completed entirely online. I wouldn't doubt it at all! 

[Lunera]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I read recently that this visit by Jeremy and Jinger to CA was a forshadowing of them moving to CA.  Did anyone else see that. I'm trying to find the link.  I could easily see that happening. 

I can see them moving to LA too. I bet Jeremy will move them there to finish his program. I'm going to try and find it but there is an old episode of Jinger and Jeremy playing the newlywed game and they were asked what their dream place to live would be. Jinger guessed Italy for Jeremy but his answer was Los Angeles. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Lunera

[Spencer Hastings]

Los Angeles is a far cry from “just a city that has a Walmart.”

[Ijustwantsomechips]

On 3/14/2019 at 2:42 PM, libgirl2 said:

Why don't you know, they are going straight to heaven because they were saved and believe? They don't have to do anything else, they are "in". 

Because that whole “faith without works is dead” doesn’t apply to them 🙄

[Sew Sumi]

15 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

Los Angeles is a far cry from “just a city that has a Walmart.”

If I didn't already despise Mechelle, I definitely would have for that bon mot. Way to go with regard to letting your spawn "leave and cleave, baby." That didn't work out so well for her pet, did it? 

As for JinJer, they will have to move to either LA or Dallas if Jeremy is serious about getting his MDiv. 

[Zella]

19 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

If I didn't already despise Mechelle, I definitely would have for that bon mot. Way to go with regard to letting your spawn "leave and cleave, baby." That didn't work out so well for her pet, did it? 

As for JinJer, they will have to move to either LA or Dallas if Jeremy is serious about getting his MDiv. 

Since Jeremy harbors delusions of grandeur and stardom, it'll be L.A. 😎

[Sew Sumi]

They can't afford LA without the show. Even with that income, they can't afford even a modest house. Shit be pricey in coastal CA. Ask me how I know. 😁

[latetotheparty]

8 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

They can't afford LA without the show. Even with that income, they can't afford even a modest house. Shit be pricey in coastal CA. Ask me how I know. 😁

I was just going to say this. I’m not sure they can afford it WITH the show. 

[Sew Sumi]

With the show? A nice 2BR apartment/condo in the Valley. Is Jeremy willing to commute? And have no parish? (As if he cares for his flock now...NOT!)

Edited March 16, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Zella]

15 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

They can't afford LA without the show. Even with that income, they can't afford even a modest house. Shit be pricey in coastal CA. Ask me how I know. 😁

Good point! I had a panic attack just listening to a friend of mine tell me about the prices in San Francisco. 

[Sew Sumi]

5 minutes ago, Zella said:

Good point! I had a panic attack just listening to a friend of mine tell me about the prices in San Francisco. 

Heh. I live there. Well, across the bay, which is still the 6th priciest place in the country, according to a very recent poll I saw on the news. IIRC, LA was sandwiched between SF and Oakland.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Zella]

34 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Heh. I live there. Well, across the bay, which is still the 6th priciest place in the country, according to a very recent poll I saw on the news. IIRC, LA was sandwiched between SF and Oakland.

Yeah my friend actually lives in Oakland but works in Frisco. When naive country bumpkin me innocently asked her about the possibility of her moving to SF to be closer to work, she took the opportunity to educate me in local real estate prices. 

I no longer offer her suggestions on housing. Just condolences on the prices! 

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

They can't afford LA without the show. Even with that income, they can't afford even a modest house. Shit be pricey in coastal CA. Ask me how I know. 😁

Yeah, but they're kinda dumb. 

And at least one of them has stars in his eyes. 

They wouldn't be the first to try it.....And eventually find out that big expensive ponds can be very very expensive. And very very big -- so they have room for lots and lots of competitors who are seeing the same stars.....and maybe have, um, more talent.

While the stargazer in question now can't even afford the U-Haul to drag his shit back to Nowheresville, USA. 

It's an old old story. And in this case, for me, it'd be a comedy. 

Quite similar to Der possibly dreaming that he'll become the big constitutional lawyer who'll save the mightily righteous but devil-beleaguered dreams of his fellow Christians with his powerful arguments before the Supreme Court. 

Neither of those guys married a Duggar to live a quiet life in Tontitown with 10 kids......They've got Jim Bob-sized ambitions. 

EMLTA: Don't think the guys adequately took into account the fact that, while JB managed to get TeeVee fame, it's only because he created a freak show. Hardly what the marryer-in-boys have in mind, I would guess.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Churchhoney

[SunnyBeBe]

I read that the Master's program has lost it's accreditation and is on probation for some pretty troubling findings.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master's_Seminary

Ref. living in certain areas in CA.  I had a good friend who moved to Sherman Oaks, CA after college.  She and her husband really loved living there, but, they only lasted about 6 years.  She said that the cost of buying a small home was not feasible. (All over a million for what they wanted.)  And, that was a long time ago.  I can only imagine how it is now. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I read that the Master's program has lost it's accreditation and is on probation for some pretty troubling findings.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master's_Seminary

Ref. living in certain areas in CA.  I had a good friend who moved to Sherman Oaks, CA after college.  She and her husband really loved living there, but, they only lasted about 6 years.  She said that the cost of buying a small home was not feasible. (All over a million for what they wanted.)  And, that was a long time ago.  I can only imagine how it is now. 

Yep. 

I believe Jer's school is in the first year of an approximately two-year probation period with the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. So they're safe for a while, still.

But I've also read some stuff saying they're being recalcitrant about changing. The complaints are about things like nepotism and a board that's generally very inbred with the administration......And given the nature of the enterprise and of John MacArthur, it seems that's something they'll be quite loath to change.

Plus they're getting pressure from some other conservative-Christian people to simply drop the accreditation from the ebul non-conservative-Christian accrediting group. 

All that puts them between a rock and a hard place, I think. Cause if they do lose or drop the accreditation then their students lose access to federal student-aid programs. So if Jer's doing any of this with loans, he'd probably better finish quickly in case that should happen. 

That'll be the consideration that ultimately pushes MacArthur to make changes to keep the accreditation , I expect. Because he'd almost certainly risk losing a lot of his applicants if they couldn't get loans to attend a school that has a fairly substantial tuition because it's in such a high-rent area. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Jeremy seems pretty bright. Do you think he knows these things about this school? It just seems to me that it might be something I would want to steer clear of. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[doodlebug]

8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Jeremy seems pretty bright. Do you think he knows these things about this school? It just seems to me that it might be something I would want to steer clear of. 

There are plenty of perfectly intelligent people who get caught up in scams and such.  Jeremy grew up with a father who was a fundie minister, he was steeped in MacArthur and his preaching.  I think that, because of his love for the way of life that this sort of ministry provides as well as for the specific influence of the guy who runs the school; Jeremy probably didn't do a lot of critical thinking about what might happen if the school is decertified.  I am sure MacArthur has been out there amongst his flock claiming that this is all just persecution of a faithful Christian by the godless masses and, since he isn't going to give up (because it's still making him a bundle), they must continue to support the school.  And, Jeremy bought it hook, line and sinker because it was aligned with his views.

[SunnyBeBe]

28 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

There are plenty of perfectly intelligent people who get caught up in scams and such.  Jeremy grew up with a father who was a fundie minister, he was steeped in MacArthur and his preaching.  I think that, because of his love for the way of life that this sort of ministry provides as well as for the specific influence of the guy who runs the school; Jeremy probably didn't do a lot of critical thinking about what might happen if the school is decertified.  I am sure MacArthur has been out there amongst his flock claiming that this is all just persecution of a faithful Christian by the godless masses and, since he isn't going to give up (because it's still making him a bundle), they must continue to support the school.  And, Jeremy bought it hook, line and sinker because it was aligned with his views.

This is possible.  I know quite a few who grew up in a similar way. I grew up fundie too.  I was allowed some things, but, it was a struggle. I was allowed to play my Osmond records, but, reminded it was straight from Hell.  You know.  Even as I young child, I knew this type of thing was not normal and I focused my attention on real education and a healthier outlook with spirituality. My parents like Bob Jones University, but, I went with a state school.  They didn't mind too much. Of course, I was bound for law and not theology. lol

Edited March 16, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[Churchhoney]

44 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Jeremy seems pretty bright. Do you think he knows these things about this school? It just seems to me that it might be something I would want to steer clear of. 

This has been written about very extensively throughout the conservative-Protestant press and blogosphere. So if he doesn't know it, he's even lazier-minded than I think he is! I'm sure he knows. 

But he really hero-worships John MacArthur, for one thing. Plus, he'd like to be John MacArthur, I'm sure. Both those things make you very loath to think there's anything wrong with somebody's actions, seems to me. 

Plus, there's a lot of controversy over whether conservative-Christian schools should ever seek accreditation at all from accrediting bodies like WASC, with a broad membership that includes secular institutions and institutions from a variety of religious traditions. And also a lot of controversy over whether conservative-Christian schools should allow federal student aid, given that its current requirements mean you have to conform to accrediting groups like WASC.... AND MacArthur and company have grumbled about the WASC findings as well. 

So if you're Jer, then you have lots of backup for just feeling that this is all unfair and further proof that the really good people of America are under siege. 

He's probably concerned about the outcome, especially if he's got any federal loans! (although who knows if he does?)

But I'd bet he doesn't for a second think this is in any way the fault of MacArthur or his schools. I'm sure he blames the accrediting body, the government, and anybody else who criticizes his school or MacArthur.

You'd have to be kind of open-minded to wonder whether your own "side" wasn't the right one in a case like this. And obviously I may underestimate Jer (no kidding!), but my guess is that he's not that open-minded. Especially in a case like this. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Oldernowiser]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I read that the Master's program has lost it's accreditation and is on probation for some pretty troubling findings.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master's_Seminary

“WASC's visiting team observed and received reports of a climate of fear, intimidation, bullying, and uncertainty among significant numbers of faculty and staff.[3] Furthermore, WASC released a statement stating its "extreme concern" that TMUS may be in violation of required reporting responsibilities under the Clery Act, the Violence Against Women Act, and the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act.”

Sounds...just nifty.

Seriously, what is wrong with these people????

[SunnyBeBe]

From what I have read, this church, who sponsors this school, is non-denominational, so, I can't address their practices.  I know nothing about them.  It does say that they are conservative based. If they are similar to the Independent Fundamental Baptists (very conservative based), that I grew up with it....then, I get it.  It's hardcore and deeply instilled and they likely have no idea that these illegal practices are unacceptable or harmful.  Should know, but, slow to accept reality and slow to reform.  I wish there were some specifics of the violations, but, I guess that's confidential.  Still, I would expect someone to be blogging about it. 

[Churchhoney]

22 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

From what I have read, this church, who sponsors this school, is non-denominational, so, I can't address their practices.  I know nothing about them.  It does say that they are conservative based. If they are similar to the Independent Fundamental Baptists (very conservative based), that I grew up with it....then, I get it.  It's hardcore and deeply instilled and they likely have no idea that these illegal practices are unacceptable or harmful.  Should know, but, slow to accept reality and slow to reform.  I wish there were some specifics of the violations, but, I guess that's confidential.  Still, I would expect someone to be blogging about it. 

A lot of people have blogged. There's been stuff about it on Reddit for more than a decade, I think. However, MacArthur is very very widely admired among some sectors of the mostly-Calvinist evangelicals. And he's got a lot of power.

So, you know, individuals can make complaints but when they're complaints about the high and mighty, people get silenced or silence themselves, very often. 

And when it comes to churches or other organizations that exist in groups....Well, the groups often do function as a shield for some time. But at a certain point they're often forced to confront the problems in their midst, at least a bit.....Witness the Catholic and Southern Baptist controversies raging. 

In that way, I'd expect that the fully stand-alone organizations may have the edge in covering up, especially when they're rich and powerful like this group. Because while the Catholic Church or the SBC may get sick of being blamed and at least partly turn on some of their errant members, there's really nobody in that vulnerable position when it comes to a fully independent individual enterprise. ....

Your flaws kind of have to reach a level that will upset the general public and threaten your very existence before you look at them closely in those cases, I expect......Kind of the way it ultimately happened with Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll or Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. .......

But the kind of behavior being alleged in this case may not upset most of the people involved with the organization. Most of them probably actually take pride in being an insular and even an inbred group. They openly embrace very sexist policies, and so on. So I'd expect that most may actually side with MacArthur pretty much completely, based on the way these things tend to go. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Churchhoney

[SunnyBeBe]

Even though Jeremy is hanging in there with that group, I still can't help but wonder why though, because, some of his comments, positions and practices says to me, that he has more liberal and open views on a woman's place in the home and society.  He seems to want Jinger's voice known.  He seems to have a lot of respect for her and acknowledges her talents and abilities. Jeremy seemed to be just as happy having a girl child as having a male child.   This isn't real common with a lot of conservative, religious groups that I know.  I intend to listen to a couple of his online sermons, to get a better feel for him.  I'm wondering if he is paying lip service with that group, but, not fully on board with its (unwritten) practices and philosophies. 

[Zella]

My impression of Jeremy is that though he may not hold all their views, he holds enough of them--and the despicable ones--that he is much more of a believer than the public persona he has crafted indicates. 

[Churchhoney]

27 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Even though Jeremy is hanging in there with that group, I still can't help but wonder why though, because, some of his comments, positions and practices says to me, that he has more liberal and open views on a woman's place in the home and society.  He seems to want Jinger's voice known.  He seems to have a lot of respect for her and acknowledges her talents and abilities. Jeremy seemed to be just as happy having a girl child as having a male child.   This isn't real common with a lot of conservative, religious groups that I know.  I intend to listen to a couple of his online sermons, to get a better feel for him.  I'm wondering if he is paying lip service with that group, but, not fully on board with its (unwritten) practices and philosophies. 

I agree he's kind of a hard one to figure. But his dad is a pretty prominent complementarian, with lots of sermons about that up online. And Jer seems to very much admire and respect Chuck and aspire to be like him. So I'd be quite surprised if he doesn't agree with his philosophies. And Jer's also hung with a lot of prominent church guys who also share this opinion. 

As we've discussed before, he deliberately chose a "meek" woman, and someone raised in a super-patriarchal system who hasn't given any sign she veered from it. 

And he deliberately chose to go to one of the few remaining seminaries that ban women completely from any of their actual seminarian classes and the like while providing students' spouses with what are basically "little wifey" bible classes so they can do "pastor's wife" stuff but never ever anything more. 

My interpretation of this -- which could be wrong, of course -- is that Jer is fully onboard with all of this.

However, there still is always the fact that all of these guys want their wives to be at the top of the little-wifey pack.

I.e., while you don't believe women should be allowed to take on any of the leadership positions that men traditionally do (so, in my view, you're a big fat unrepentant self-congratulatory sexist) you do want a wife who's the classiest and most ornamental and most a credit to you out of all the traditional wives of your sexist group.

That's the extent to which guys like Chuck and Jer promote and support their own wives, I'm guessing. They support the wives rising high as wives so those wives can be an asset to them, the men. They have absolutely no interest in any kind of situation where the wives might do anything that directly competes with any men. Because that's against Christ. 

Note that Jer was among the original signers of the anti-social-justice letter of which MacArthur and his crew were prime movers. And one of the big points of that letter is that any woman who complains that she's in any way disadvantaged or put down today by men and a male society is an evil whiner who's abandoned Christ. 

Jer is also no dummy when it comes to creating a social media image, I think.  

He's been around enough to know that saying things like this out loud might turn off enough women to limit his and Jingle's social-media following and possibly even turn off some women who might otherwise decide to follow his religious example.

So my guess is that he wraps it all in a nice "modern" package that appears unobjectionable -- and even attractive -- to just about everybody. There's certainly a long history of people getting people on board with their theologies and philosophies and ideologies because they keep the parts that might annoy people out of sight until people have been a bit won over. So I don't know why Jer wouldn't follow this. In his mind,  it would all be for a good cause -- gently ease people on board his complementarian Calvinist train and then, when they've already bought into some of it, then ease them farther along to buy into all. That approach works. 

Plus, I'm still sure that he's pinning at least some of his hopes for a big job on dangling his and Jingle's big TeeVee and social-media followings in front of people -- so that people will see him as a potential source of new prospects in a way that few other young guys in their belief group can muster.

So I see him as being super-unlikely to put anything on social media that could turn off anybody -- no matter how strongly he believes that thing. Because he NEEDS AND CRAVES those big numbers. They're perhaps his only distinguishing quality in what I'm sure is a tight job market.

Plus, like all the Duggarlings and their marryers-in, as far as I can see, Jer's not an actual leader or bright or intellectually active enough to be an original thinker. So I don't really see him having the inclination to scrutinize the individual planks of a belief system that he generally buys into.

I expect he buys everything his heroes say and would never even think of accepting one principle while rejecting another, frankly. (Unless that plank interferes with his convenience too much, of course. In which case I expect he'd do what most people do -- just ignore that plank while pretending to himself that he's actually abiding by it.)

His sermons don't suggest to me that he has many brains or expends a lot of energy using the ones he has. 

That's my take on Jer, in any case. Obviously, MMV!

Edited March 16, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

Sounds like cult recruitment. False-front Jeremy is no better than a Sea Org member of Scientology. Fully indoctrinated, but hiding true beliefs in order to grow the flock.

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Heh. I live there. Well, across the bay, which is still the 6th priciest place in the country, according to a very recent poll I saw on the news. IIRC, LA was sandwiched between SF and Oakland.

Here's a nice roundup, including some prices, if you're interested. California just in general -- not cheap. Good luck, Jer, if that's your aspiration.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/09/12/cost-live-america-most-expensive-cities/37748097/

Greetings from #9. 

[mimionthebeach]

14 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Sounds like cult recruitment. False-front Jeremy is no better than a Sea Org member of Scientology. Fully indoctrinated, but hiding true beliefs in order to grow the flock.

And he really wants to be their Tom Cruise.

[Sew Sumi]

11 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Here's a nice roundup, including some prices, if you're interested. California just in general -- not cheap. Good luck, Jer, if that's your aspiration.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/09/12/cost-live-america-most-expensive-cities/37748097/

Greetings from #9. 

Waves from #3! Without Hayward, we'd be #2.

But methodology here is suspect. SF is usually grouped with the Peninsula, not Oakland and the East Bay (which is a smidge cheaper).

Edited March 16, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[tabloidlover]

I live in Central CA where housing is less expensive, still much higher priced than Arkansas (cannot believe how cheap property is there!) and Laredo.  What many people don’t take into consideration are all of the other costs associated with moving to CA.

Gas is close to $4/gallon, income tax rate is high, even car registration is ridiculous.  I have talked to so many people that end up not registering their car after moving once they find out how expensive it is.  They risk the ticket.  Property taxes are also high here.

#rantover

Edited March 17, 2019 by tabloidlover

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

I love in Central CA where housing is less expensive, still much higher priced than Arkansas (cannot believe how cheap property is there!)

Yeah as I've mentioned on here I live in Arkansas and have been closely following our local real estate stuff for a couple of years now. The farms and large chunks of land can get pricey--though still definitely way cheaper than other parts of the country--but you can also get a really nice house on an acre or two or three for fairly cheap.

Have some friends who are still in the Fayetteville area who complain bitterly about what they consider gentrification and how the costs are astronomical. I never say anything, but I really don't get what the hell they're talking about. Housing costs are actually a bit cheaper there than in my small town in a rural area, and there's a pretty good selection of nice houses and nice neighborhoods. Of course, the downside of that is since the area is growing rapidly, it seems like there are a lot of foreclosures. I live in a poor area, and we have nowhere near the foreclosures they do. Guess the banks aren't terribly interested in anyone who can't make payments since they know there will be plenty of other people interested in the house. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Zella

[Churchhoney]

17 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Waves from #3! Without Hayward, we'd be #2.

But methodology here is suspect. SF is usually grouped with the Peninsula, not Oakland and the East Bay (which is a smidge cheaper).

Yeah, it's a similar methodology strangeness for DC. They lump these together --Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, D.C.-Virginia-Maryland-West Virginia. 

And throwing West Virginia in with DC itself and the inner suburbs results in prices way lower than what you'd have if you just included DC and its closer environs. It seems to be true that a fair number of people commute in from West Virginia so in that way it's certainly the same metropolitan area.  But many if not most do that because it's a heckuvalot cheaper to live in West Virginia than DC. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I agree he's kind of a hard one to figure. But his dad is a pretty prominent complementarian, with lots of sermons about that up online. And Jer seems to very much admire and respect Chuck and aspire to be like him. So I'd be quite surprised if he doesn't agree with his philosophies. And Jer's also hung with a lot of prominent church guys who also share this opinion. 

As we've discussed before, he deliberately chose a "meek" woman, and someone raised in a super-patriarchal system who hasn't given any sign she veered from it. 

And he deliberately chose to go to one of the few remaining seminaries that ban women completely from any of their actual seminarian classes and the like while providing students' spouses with what are basically "little wifey" bible classes so they can do "pastor's wife" stuff but never ever anything more. 

My interpretation of this -- which could be wrong, of course -- is that Jer is fully onboard with all of this.

However, there still is always the fact that all of these guys want their wives to be at the top of the little-wifey pack.

I.e., while you don't believe women should be allowed to take on any of the leadership positions that men traditionally do (so, in my view, you're a big fat unrepentant self-congratulatory sexist) you do want a wife who's the classiest and most ornamental and most a credit to you out of all the traditional wives of your sexist group.

That's the extent to which guys like Chuck and Jer promote and support their own wives, I'm guessing. They support the wives rising high as wives so those wives can be an asset to them, the men. They have absolutely no interest in any kind of situation where the wives might do anything that directly competes with any men. Because that's against Christ. 

Note that Jer was among the original signers of the anti-social-justice letter of which MacArthur and his crew were prime movers. And one of the big points of that letter is that any woman who complains that she's in any way disadvantaged or put down today by men and a male society is an evil whiner who's abandoned Christ. 

Jer is also no dummy when it comes to creating a social media image, I think.  

He's been around enough to know that saying things like this out loud might turn off enough women to limit his and Jingle's social-media following and possibly even turn off some women who might otherwise decide to follow his religious example.

So my guess is that he wraps it all in a nice "modern" package that appears unobjectionable -- and even attractive -- to just about everybody. There's certainly a long history of people getting people on board with their theologies and philosophies and ideologies because they keep the parts that might annoy people out of sight until people have been a bit won over. So I don't know why Jer wouldn't follow this. In his mind,  it would all be for a good cause -- gently ease people on board his complementarian Calvinist train and then, when they've already bought into some of it, then ease them farther along to buy into all. That approach works. 

Plus, I'm still sure that he's pinning at least some of his hopes for a big job on dangling his and Jingle's big TeeVee and social-media followings in front of people -- so that people will see him as a potential source of new prospects in a way that few other young guys in their belief group can muster.

So I see him as being super-unlikely to put anything on social media that could turn off anybody -- no matter how strongly he believes that thing. Because he NEEDS AND CRAVES those big numbers. They're perhaps his only distinguishing quality in what I'm sure is a tight job market.

Plus, like all the Duggarlings and their marryers-in, as far as I can see, Jer's not an actual leader or bright or intellectually active enough to be an original thinker. So I don't really see him having the inclination to scrutinize the individual planks of a belief system that he generally buys into.

I expect he buys everything his heroes say and would never even think of accepting one principle while rejecting another, frankly. (Unless that plank interferes with his convenience too much, of course. In which case I expect he'd do what most people do -- just ignore that plank while pretending to himself that he's actually abiding by it.)

His sermons don't suggest to me that he has many brains or expends a lot of energy using the ones he has. 

That's my take on Jer, in any case. Obviously, MMV!

Well said!

[Christina87]

Jeremy as a pastor is zero percent interesting. He live streamed video showed up on my fb, so I watched probably two minutes, and he didn't look up at all during that time! He was staring down at books, and I literally never could get a clue what he was talking about. He said nothing with a hint of coherence. I'm glad he has such confidence in his abilities, because I don't see them. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Christina87

[Churchhoney]

28 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

Jeremy as a pastor is zero percent interesting. He live streamed video showed up on my fb, so I watched probably two minutes, and he didn't look up at all during that time! He was staring down at books, and I literally never could get a clue what he was talking about. He said nothing with a hint of coherence. I'm glad he has such confidence in his abilities, because I don't see them. 

Well, you get an amen on that. 

I'm honestly astonished that he allows himself to be as terrible a preacher as he is. Surely he's heard a gazillion sermons in his life. And he's also heard many of those sermons while he was aspiring to be a preacher himself.

Given all that, the fact that he doesn't seem to have figured out by now what good sermons and public talks are like -- and tried to imitate that in his own work -- utterly baffles me. Even if he were botching the imitations, I'm pretty sure I could tell if he were trying to model his work on good talks he's heard. But I don't even hear him clumsily trying -- or showing any recognition of what good sermons sound like and have in them.

It's a primary reason why I continue to see him as really pretty dumb and lazy. And I do find that baffling for somebody who seems to me to have such big ambitions and who obviously has had a lifetime's worth of chances to closely observe the profession he's in. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Churchhoney

[galaxychaser]

If they do move to la it won’t be for long. No way they can afford it long term.

[cmr2014]

Patriarchy does not require cruelty towards women, and children -- that's simply a by-product in some (many) cases.

It's entirely possible for Jeremy to be 100% behind McArthur and his beliefs and be nice to his wife, and love his daughter. If he's not, though, it doesn't matter -- and that's the problem. It's arguably worse that Jeremy and Jinger put an attractive face on this lifestyle that creates so much misery for so many women and children around the world.

[jcbrown]

On 3/16/2019 at 11:19 AM, Churchhoney said:

Here's a nice roundup, including some prices, if you're interested. California just in general -- not cheap. Good luck, Jer, if that's your aspiration.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/09/12/cost-live-america-most-expensive-cities/37748097/

Greetings from #9. 

Eek. Greetings from #1. 

I agree, the state is too pricey for them. (And I'm selfishly glad they are thinking of Southern California, rather than invading my Northern part of the state.)

[fonfereksglen]

3 hours ago, Christina87 said:

Jeremy as a pastor is zero percent interesting. He live streamed video showed up on my fb, so I watched probably two minutes, and he didn't look up at all during that time! He was staring down at books, and I literally never could get a clue what he was talking about. He said nothing with a hint of coherence. I'm glad he has such confidence in his abilities, because I don't see them. 

That sounds like someone who doesn't think he has to prepare and practice.  Just wing it because he wears pretty clothes.  Style over substance.

[DangerousMinds]

4 hours ago, Christina87 said:

Jeremy as a pastor is zero percent interesting. He live streamed video showed up on my fb, so I watched probably two minutes, and he didn't look up at all during that time! He was staring down at books, and I literally never could get a clue what he was talking about. He said nothing with a hint of coherence. I'm glad he has such confidence in his abilities, because I don't see them. 

I had the same reaction to one of his sermons. If we can’t even understand what he is talking about, that’s a complete and utter failure.

Edited March 17, 2019 by DangerousMinds

[BigBingerBro]

I only watched one of his sermons in which he talked about the bible and how people have different interpretations of it.  He interacted with the audience quite a bit, but the whole thing was basically a "let's whine and criticize people who do not believe the things we do" session.  When he did use scripture passages to try and make a point, it was just confusing and bumbling.  He also kept repeating "Does that make sense?" or "Do you understand what I mean?" over and over....  that in itself does not make him sound or look confident at all.  He really needs some serious public speaking courses under his belt.

[fonfereksglen]

35 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I only watched one of his sermons in which he talked about the bible and how people have different interpretations of it.  He interacted with the audience quite a bit, but the whole thing was basically a "let's whine and criticize people who do not believe the things we do" session.  When he did use scripture passages to try and make a point, it was just confusing and bumbling.  He also kept repeating "Does that make sense?" or "Do you understand what I mean?" over and over....  that in itself does not make him sound or look confident at all.  He really needs some serious public speaking courses under his belt.

In our synod, it takes four years of an appropriate college major and then going to a synod seminary  for at least three years .  During the seminary training, the 6 or more months of being a Vicar,  like an intern or student teacher, is the final testing ground.  And even if qualified,  the future pastor, must be called to serve a congregation according to ability. 

JerJer has done none of that, which is why he has no clue.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, fonfereksglen said:

In our synod, it takes four years of an appropriate college major and then going to a synod seminary  for at least three years .  During the seminary training, the 6 or more months of being a Vicar,  like an intern or student teacher, is the final testing ground.  And even if qualified,  the future pastor, must be called to serve a congregation according to ability. 

JerJer has done none of that, which is why he has no clue.

He's taken selfies with a lot of theology books, though. 

[Christina87]

Why are there so many young dudes like this who want to preach without really being qualified? I used to teach with a girl whose husband was an intern with a young adult ministry at a church, and she always talked about money problems, saying she way outearned him (and when we started, beginning teachers made 30K!). The church he interned at didn't even have a physical building either. She taught for two years and then quit her job to be a supportive stay-at-home spouse, and I'm all for living how you think God wants you to, but you've gotta eat!!! Not too long and she was pregnant. The weird thing was, the guy's family had money, and they were over the moon thrilled for the baby. It seemed obvious to me that they were the only ones with the means to pay for the baby's every need, so if they were happy despite financing it, I guess I shouldn't worry about it!

But about a week ago, he announced that God had convinced him to leave his "job," and find a career that can pay for his family. Ironically, God convinced him through fasting (probably because he couldn't afford food!). I wonder if baby #2 is on the way and his family put their foot down about paying for another one, and eventually a large family.

My point is this: why are so many dudes these days wanting to be pretend preachers? This guy is charismatic and intelligent, much more than Jeremy, and while his views are also intolerable, he's a little less unbearable. He has a college degree in a real subject, like business or something, and could easily go to an actual seminary! For instance, if he wanted to be a Methodist minister, he could be making 70K a year as an associate at a good church right out of school! Certainly his parents would fund seminary too, so he'd graduate without debt. I just don't for the life of me understand masquerading as a fake preacher when you could go to school and put forth some effort to be a real one! Same with Jeremy. He could go to an actual seminary associated with a denomination, where he would actually learn preaching skills, and be practically guaranteed a decent paying job forever as long as he didn't mess up too badly. 

Idk about Jeremy, but in my acquaintance's case, I think it's pure laziness. He enjoys having the title and having few responsibilities while having his parents foot the bill. He also seems to have this urgency to spend every second living for God, like, "if I did seminary for a few years, I'd be missing out on doing God's work! I wanna be a pastor now!" I'm glad he's passionate, but he needs to see the big picture.  He can either be a fake preacher now, or delay gratification by a few years and have a sustainable career. Now he will moan and bitch to high heaven about having to do a secular job, no doubt. It's irritating because legitimate seminaries always talk about enrollment being down, so he could go into a well compensated, in demand field!

on the other hand, I know tons of religion majors from college who went to an expensive out of state seminary, only to work at Party City and be a volunteer youth pastor. And this wasn't a flunk out / fail to be a pastor type thing. They specifically went to be a youth pastor! "Oh, I couldn't take on the responsibility of being a senior pastor!" they all said. I assumed there must be some huge market for highly trained youth pastors, but I guess I was wrong about that. None of them have tapped into that market, at least! So...why spend that kind of money to end up in a position that most people volunteer for?

Edited March 18, 2019 by Christina87

[Zella]

I think for them, it's ego, Christina. They want the power and prestige that goes with it and are drawn to the flashier side (like delivering sermons and being known as a preacher) and have much less interest in knowing what they're doing or the harder, emotionally draining, more mundane side of being pastor (pastoral work). 

Some of the creepiest people I went to school with at a religious college wanted to be preachers. They put no real effort into training for it, and many of them were badly unsuited for it. But they didn't care because they were in it to stoke their own ego. 

[GeeGolly]

My family and I have very good friends who have a sibling who's a priest. I've heard his sermons while attending church with my friends for various family events over the years. Every non-religious gathering we go to he's there. He wears street clothes and doesn't talk religion at these gatherings. I'm very much opposed to a couple of his beliefs but we get along fine and he's a really nice guy.

I guess I don't see Jeremy hiding his beliefs any more than this priest does. Just because he doesn't post it on SM doesn't mean he's hiding it. I think that marrying a Duggar is kind of putting your beliefs out there from the first side hug. And the fact that Jeremy chooses to stand in a pulpit and preach fundy beliefs makes it fairly obvious where he stands.

Derick posting mean and hateful thoughts on social media lets me know that he's an unaccepting man without compassion. Tom Cruise arguing that Scientology made him an expert on mental health treatment lets me know he's and idiot. But someone that has beliefs that differ from mine does not let me know who they are as a person.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Zella said:

I think for them, it's ego, Christina. They want the power and prestige that goes with it and are drawn to the flashier side (like delivering sermons and being known as a preacher) and have much less interest in knowing what they're doing or the harder, emotionally draining, more mundane side of being pastor (pastoral work). 

Some of the creepiest people I went to school with at a religious college wanted to be preachers. They put no real effort into training for it, and many of them were badly unsuited for it. But they didn't care because they were in it to stoke their own ego. 

Your right. That's exactly what it is ego.  Its not an accident that most of them including Jeremy ended up the Fundie group they are in. Where men are always praised and treated like Gods even though they don't really do anything. They get all the praise without any of the work or education. And certainly without worrying about any kind of charity unless its given to you. If you want to go on vacation? Well, then its missioncations! Sure Jeremy's going to college but not one that's ever going to challenge his beliefs or actually debate anything and there's no women there. If anyone challenges you or your opinion they are of course evil heathens so who cares. You don't even really have to have a job, work hard or do anything. And you'll still be praised for being the best husband, father and most Godly man. 

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, Christina87 said:

Why are there so many young dudes like this who want to preach without really being qualified? I used to teach with a girl whose husband was an intern with a young adult ministry at a church, and she always talked about money problems, saying she way outearned him (and when we started, beginning teachers made 30K!). The church he interned at didn't even have a physical building either. She taught for two years and then quit her job to be a supportive stay-at-home spouse, and I'm all for living how you think God wants you to, but you've gotta eat!!! Not too long and she was pregnant. The weird thing was, the guy's family had money, and they were over the moon thrilled for the baby. It seemed obvious to me that they were the only ones with the means to pay for the baby's every need, so if they were happy despite financing it, I guess I shouldn't worry about it!

But about a week ago, he announced that God had convinced him to leave his "job," and find a career that can pay for his family. Ironically, God convinced him through fasting (probably because he couldn't afford food!). I wonder if baby #2 is on the way and his family put their foot down about paying for another one, and eventually a large family.

My point is this: why are so many dudes these days wanting to be pretend preachers? This guy is charismatic and intelligent, much more than Jeremy, and while his views are also intolerable, he's a little less unbearable. He has a college degree in a real subject, like business or something, and could easily go to an actual seminary! For instance, if he wanted to be a Methodist minister, he could be making 70K a year as an associate at a good church right out of school! Certainly his parents would fund seminary too, so he'd graduate without debt. I just don't for the life of me understand masquerading as a fake preacher when you could go to school and put forth some effort to be a real one! Same with Jeremy. He could go to an actual seminary associated with a denomination, where he would actually learn preaching skills, and be practically guaranteed a decent paying job forever as long as he didn't mess up too badly. 

Idk about Jeremy, but in my acquaintance's case, I think it's pure laziness. He enjoys having the title and having few responsibilities while having his parents foot the bill. He also seems to have this urgency to spend every second living for God, like, "if I did seminary for a few years, I'd be missing out on doing God's work! I wanna be a pastor now!" I'm glad he's passionate, but he needs to see the big picture.  He can either be a fake preacher now, or delay gratification by a few years and have a sustainable career. Now he will moan and bitch to high heaven about having to do a secular job, no doubt. It's irritating because legitimate seminaries always talk about enrollment being down, so he could go into a well compensated, in demand field!

on the other hand, I know tons of religion majors from college who went to an expensive out of state seminary, only to work at Party City and be a volunteer youth pastor. And this wasn't a flunk out / fail to be a pastor type thing. They specifically went to be a youth pastor! "Oh, I couldn't take on the responsibility of being a senior pastor!" they all said. I assumed there must be some huge market for highly trained youth pastors, but I guess I was wrong about that. None of them have tapped into that market, at least! So...why spend that kind of money to end up in a position that most people volunteer for?

Being an acknowledged leader of men without having to do anything to earn the designation except stand up and yap while an adoring crowd looks up at you (literally) has pretty strong appeal for a lot of personalities, I'd guess. And it's easy to envision various kinds of pastoring being that way, especially if you don't think very hard.  ;  )

Some people go into other fields, like politics or teaching, for similar reasons. And in this one you get the added bonus of thinking that God sees you as really really special as well.

Plus, if you're being this unrealistic about it, you probably also dream that you'll have to actually do very little. After all, you're already full of faith inspiration so it's just a matter of pouring out that pre-existing wisdom into the eager ears of the crowd.  

Almost all of us have ego and a good helping of laziness, so I'd guess these folks just have a heaping helping of it. And the notion that the world will pay good money for them to just do what comes naturally. Looks like a lot of them ultimately learn otherwise. 

Kind of reminds me of all the people who are absolutely sure that they can and should "write a book." And that crowds are likely to line up to pay money for their amazing words and the stunning story of their lives and wisdom. 

There too it usually turns out that imagining yourself writing a book and actually writing a book are two totally different things....In this case, most people never even get to the trying-to-sell-the-book part. But it sure sounded good back when they were imagining it. 

7 hours ago, Christina87 said:

Why are there so many young dudes like this who want to preach without really being qualified? I used to teach with a girl whose husband was an intern with a young adult ministry at a church, and she always talked about money problems, saying she way outearned him (and when we started, beginning teachers made 30K!). The church he interned at didn't even have a physical building either. She taught for two years and then quit her job to be a supportive stay-at-home spouse, and I'm all for living how you think God wants you to, but you've gotta eat!!! Not too long and she was pregnant. The weird thing was, the guy's family had money, and they were over the moon thrilled for the baby. It seemed obvious to me that they were the only ones with the means to pay for the baby's every need, so if they were happy despite financing it, I guess I shouldn't worry about it!

But about a week ago, he announced that God had convinced him to leave his "job," and find a career that can pay for his family. Ironically, God convinced him through fasting (probably because he couldn't afford food!). I wonder if baby #2 is on the way and his family put their foot down about paying for another one, and eventually a large family.

My point is this: why are so many dudes these days wanting to be pretend preachers? This guy is charismatic and intelligent, much more than Jeremy, and while his views are also intolerable, he's a little less unbearable. He has a college degree in a real subject, like business or something, and could easily go to an actual seminary! For instance, if he wanted to be a Methodist minister, he could be making 70K a year as an associate at a good church right out of school! Certainly his parents would fund seminary too, so he'd graduate without debt. I just don't for the life of me understand masquerading as a fake preacher when you could go to school and put forth some effort to be a real one! Same with Jeremy. He could go to an actual seminary associated with a denomination, where he would actually learn preaching skills, and be practically guaranteed a decent paying job forever as long as he didn't mess up too badly. 

Idk about Jeremy, but in my acquaintance's case, I think it's pure laziness. He enjoys having the title and having few responsibilities while having his parents foot the bill. He also seems to have this urgency to spend every second living for God, like, "if I did seminary for a few years, I'd be missing out on doing God's work! I wanna be a pastor now!" I'm glad he's passionate, but he needs to see the big picture.  He can either be a fake preacher now, or delay gratification by a few years and have a sustainable career. Now he will moan and bitch to high heaven about having to do a secular job, no doubt. It's irritating because legitimate seminaries always talk about enrollment being down, so he could go into a well compensated, in demand field!

on the other hand, I know tons of religion majors from college who went to an expensive out of state seminary, only to work at Party City and be a volunteer youth pastor. And this wasn't a flunk out / fail to be a pastor type thing. They specifically went to be a youth pastor! "Oh, I couldn't take on the responsibility of being a senior pastor!" they all said. I assumed there must be some huge market for highly trained youth pastors, but I guess I was wrong about that. None of them have tapped into that market, at least! So...why spend that kind of money to end up in a position that most people volunteer for?

Being an acknowledged leader of men without having to do anything to earn the designation except stand up and yap while an adoring crowd looks up at you (literally) has pretty strong appeal for a lot of personalities, I'd guess. And it's easy to envision various kinds of pastoring being that way, especially if you don't think very hard.  ;  )

Some people go into other fields, like politics or teaching, for similar reasons. And in this one you get the added bonus of thinking that God sees you as really really special as well.

Plus, if you're being this unrealistic about it, you probably also dream that you'll have to actually do very little. After all, you're already full of faith inspiration so it's just a matter of pouring out that pre-existing wisdom into the eager ears of the crowd.  

Almost all of us have ego and a good helping of laziness, so I'd guess these folks just have a heaping helping of it. And the notion that the world will pay good money for them to just do what comes naturally. Looks like a lot of them ultimately learn otherwise. 

Kind of reminds me of all the people who are absolutely sure that they can and should "write a book." And that crowds are likely to line up to pay money for their amazing words and the stunning story of their lives and wisdom. 

There too it usually turns out that imagining yourself writing a book and actually writing a book are two totally different things....In this case, most people never even get to the trying-to-sell-the-book part. But it sure sounded good back when they were imagining it. 

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

My family and I have very good friends who have a sibling who's a priest. I've heard his sermons while attending church with my friends for various family events over the years. Every non-religious gathering we go to he's there. He wears street clothes and doesn't talk religion at these gatherings. I'm very much opposed to a couple of his beliefs but we get along fine and he's a really nice guy.

I guess I don't see Jeremy hiding his beliefs any more than this priest does. Just because he doesn't post it on SM doesn't mean he's hiding it. I think that marrying a Duggar is kind of putting your beliefs out there from the first side hug. And the fact that Jeremy chooses to stand in a pulpit and preach fundy beliefs makes it fairly obvious where he stands.

Derick posting mean and hateful thoughts on social media lets me know that he's an unaccepting man without compassion. Tom Cruise arguing that Scientology made him an expert on mental health treatment lets me know he's and idiot. But someone that has beliefs that differ from mine does not let me know who they are as a person.

Here's what I don't get, though.

Why do mean and hateful social media posts make you a more mean and hateful person than mean and hateful sermons and being a premiere signer of mean and hateful public declarations? 

Especially when the mean and hateful posts and sermons are virtually identical?

Are you just saying that, since you haven't actually heard Jer's rants about Jazz and pastors-sympathetic-to-gay-people and Catholics and so on, that you currently have no basis for judgment?  

Or are you arguing that saying something mean and hateful in a public forum shows you're mean and hateful. But saying the exact same thing in a more private space -- like a church in which you're preaching to a crowd who probably agrees with you already -- shows less about who you are than more clearly public statements? 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Oldernowiser]

I wonder if the difference between being a public hate-spewer (Derrick school of ministry) and a private hate-spewer (Jeremy school of ministry) doesn’t just boil down to one thing: TLC.

Derrick is out and scratching along. Jer is in and living large in his own Metro Minister road show.

(Which might make Derrick slightly less of a hypocrite, albeit still a nasty piece of work.)