S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[AliShibaz]

When Sansa told John that a white raven had arrived from the Citadel, I couldn't make out what she said after that. But John replied, "Well, Father always promised."

What was it that Father had always promised? Can anyone tell me just what it was that Sansa said about the white raven? I imagine it must have been that Sam made it to the Citadel. But that has nothing to do with anything that Father had ever promised. I'm confused. Please help?

[RCharter]

4 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

What could Stannis have possibly worked out with Brienne that was to her liking? Also, as Simones mentioned, Brienne is an honorable person. Ned only lied three times that we know of: How Arthur Dayne died, Jon being a bastard, and lying for his kids that led to his death. All of those circumstances are very understandable. I compare her to Ned because they both are known for their honor and take it seriously. So,Stannis would have to give her an offer she couldn't refuse.

I also don't image that she'd lie about Melissandre and Davos to stick it to them. Brienne killed Stannis because of what Stannis did to Renley, which was kill him. Brienne took his death hard for several reasons, but considering who was killed and how his death still has an impact on her, I just don't think she'd lie about Stannis' death to fuck with them.

First off -- we wouldn't know what Stannis could offer that Brienne would have accepted.  Thats why it would have happened off camera

Second -- trying to one-to-one compare characters seems and odd way to prove that Brienne would never BS

Third -- lying to someone just to stick it to them is understandable.

Fourth -- what does make sense is that this has not been a show that has ever been squeamish about showing the viewer death.  And Stannis's death would not have broken the budget if Brienne killed him.  A simple run through with a sword.  And in fact, they already filmed a scene where Brienne and Stannis meet...so why not add the extra 3 minutes of her putting a sword through him?  It wasn't even like Blackfish's death.....in that case, they only showed him running up some steps, but there would have had to be more staging and more cost associated with showing him die at the hands of many fighters.  But in the case of Stannis and Brienne, there was no real additional cost and this isn't the type of show to shy away from showing death.  So yeah, to me, that makes sense.  Not playing "what would Ned Stark do."

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

Now that Cersei 9/11'd the Great Sept and everyone in it, she has certainly cemented herself as the number one uber villain of the series.  She'll eventually get hers, but how she gets it and by whom will be the most interesting.  My suspicion is that it will be by Jaime's hand.  The two of them are entwined together, and I think their fates will be entwined in a Shakespearean tragedy sort of way.

As to who will be the ultimate winners in this story, I think at least one of the big players has to lose among Dany, Jon, and Sansa.  There is only one Iron Throne, after all.

My son says wildfire doesn't burn hot enough to melt the beams of the sept.  Obviously some other force at work.  ;-)

5 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

When Sansa told John that a white raven had arrived from the Citadel, I couldn't make out what she said after that. But John replied, "Well, Father always promised."

What was it that Father had always promised? Can anyone tell me just what it was that Sansa said about the white raven? I imagine it must have been that Sam made it to the Citadel. But that has nothing to do with anything that Father had ever promised. I'm confused. Please help?

She said, "Winter is here," or words to that effect.  House Stark's words are "Winter Is Coming," and Ned said it all the time, and now it's finally coming true.

[Lady S.]

I wonder if Arya stopped to reunite with Hot Pie for some baking lessons. We never saw them teach that at the HoBaW.

[AliShibaz]

16 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

She said, "Winter is here," or words to that effect.  House Stark's words are "Winter Is Coming," and Ned said it all the time, and now it's finally coming true.

Thank you Jane.

[AliShibaz]

4 hours ago, annsterg said:

Why did Cersei take out Pycelle? Just because she hated the old coot?
 

As I recall, he had openly disrespected Cersei in a public meeting of the Small Council. That was reason enough. I wanted to see him gone too. But I would have given him a far more lengthy and painful death.

[AliShibaz]

3 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

I don't know exactly where this comment belongs, but it drives me insane that one of the showrunners pronounces Cersei as "ser-SAY".  

And while I'm not sad to see Natalie Dormer go (I have irrational, non-Thrones related issues with her), I was really disappointed that Margaery didn't seem to have more of a plan to take down the Sparrow.  I thought that's where they were leading us this whole time.

But that's just a small nitpick in an otherwise freaking awesome finale.  Dany & Co. looking all badass on the ship with the dragons flying overhead was everything.

I understand because the other showrunner pronounced Tommen as "Tomlin". WTH? How is that possible?

[RedHawk]

27 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

When Sansa told John that a white raven had arrived from the Citadel, I couldn't make out what she said after that. But John replied, "Well, Father always promised."

What was it that Father had always promised? Can anyone tell me just what it was that Sansa said about the white raven? I imagine it must have been that Sam made it to the Citadel. But that has nothing to do with anything that Father had ever promised. I'm confused. Please help?

Right, Ned always said, "Winter Is Coming". That's the Stark motto even. And that's what made it a funny little inside joke for the two of them when Sansa said, "Well, Father always promised." Such a bittersweet moment, that Winter has come and she could make that tiny joke referring to their lost father.

[Nanrad]

25 minutes ago, RCharter said:

First off -- we wouldn't know what Stannis could offer that Brienne would have accepted.  Thats why it would have happened off camera

Second -- trying to one-to-one compare characters seems and odd way to prove that Brienne would never BS

Third -- lying to someone just to stick it to them is understandable.

Fourth -- what does make sense is that this has not been a show that has ever been squeamish about showing the viewer death.  And Stannis's death would not have broken the budget if Brienne killed him.  A simple run through with a sword.  And in fact, they already filmed a scene where Brienne and Stannis meet...so why not add the extra 3 minutes of her putting a sword through him?  It wasn't even like Blackfish's death.....in that case, they only showed him running up some steps, but there would have had to be more staging and more cost associated with showing him die at the hands of many fighters.  But in the case of Stannis and Brienne, there was no real additional cost and this isn't the type of show to shy away from showing death.  So yeah, to me, that makes sense.  Not playing "what would Ned Stark do."

1. I get that, I still don't think there is much Stannis can offer Brienne either way. 

2. Actually, it isn't an odd way and is actually a method many people use to prove a point. My point was that both are comparable and only in extreme cases do they go against their honor. Which goes back to my first question: what would Stannis had offer than was seriously so tempting that Brienne lied about killing him and spared his life for that matter? It'd have to be something Brienne tailored because she doesn't want for much beyond fulfilling her service.

3. Yes, for most people, for Brienne it seems out of character. I'd believe it for 90% of the characters, just not for Brienne.

4. This is your only compelling reason. Don't take the WWND to heart--you missed the point. Both are honorable characters. Ned only lied and went against his honor in extreme circumstances, which is why I compared Brienne to him. This isn't about what he would do, but since they are comparable and Brienne is a pretty straight forward and honest person, I don't think she'd lie and not fulfill her duty unless it was an extreme circumstance. 

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, annsterg said:

Why did Cersei take out Pycelle? Just because she hated the old coot?

I just thought Cersei wanted to kill everyone in the small council (Kevan, papa Tyrell, & Pycelle).  

[meep.meep]

10 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I have always thought that Daenerys will have her dragons burn Jon to test him or maybe it happens accidentally. Jon will survive proving he is a Targaeryn and a dragon also.

He got burned pretty badly fighting the wight with a torch in Season 1.  Hope that's not her plan

Her own full brother wasn't  able to withstand fire - why should her half brother be able to?

[cassandle]

4 hours ago, dramachick said:

It'll be an interesting as to how Sansa engineers Littlefinger's demise because she probably won't straight out kill him by her own hand like Arya would. He might do a bit of damage before he's gone, but she will end him.

During their entire scene together I was yelling at Sansa to stab him--I think I hate him the most out of anyone.  That's one reason I'm hoping Arya makes it to Winterfell soon because, even if she wasn't an assassin, she wouldn't put up with Littlefinger's shit for one second.

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Her own full brother wasn't  able to withstand fire - why should her half brother be able to?

You meant her nephew? ;)

[MrWhyt]

7 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

He got burned pretty badly fighting the wight with a torch in Season 1.  Hope that's not her plan

Her own full brother wasn't  able to withstand fire - why should her half brother be able to?

Nephew, assuming Rhaegar is his father

[RCharter]

18 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

1. I get that, I still don't think there is much Stannis can offer Brienne either way. 

2. Actually, it isn't an odd way and is actually a method many people use to prove a point. My point was that both are comparable and only in extreme cases do they go against their honor. Which goes back to my first question: what would Stannis had offer than was seriously so tempting that Brienne lied about killing him and spared his life for that matter? It'd have to be something Brienne tailored because she doesn't want for much beyond fulfilling her service.

3. Yes, for most people, for Brienne it seems out of character. I'd believe it for 90% of the characters, just not for Brienne.

4. This is your only compelling reason. Don't take the WWND to heart--you missed the point. Both are honorable characters. Ned only lied and went against his honor in extreme circumstances, which is why I compared Brienne to him. This isn't about what he would do, but since they are comparable and Brienne is a pretty straight forward and honest person, I don't think she'd lie and not fulfill her duty unless it was an extreme circumstance. 

1. He could have offered her something, he could have given her some reasoning that made her not want to kill him....etc, etc

2. To me its odd, because no two people are the same, so to compare them to each other and play a "because x is sort of like y, x must always react in the same way as y."  So to me, that doesn't make much sense.  Stannis could have offered an explanation that made Brienne re-consider the honor in killing him.

3. Not at all.....Brienne has had times where she likes to stick it to people.  And if part of any conversation with Stannis included Brienne telling people he was dead....so much better.  

4.  If you want to say that you don't think that Brienne will do something based on her character, I think thats at least an understandable argument.  Saying that she isn't going to do something because Ned wouldn't have done it makes no sense to me.  I think both arguments are wrong, but one is at least understandable.  While I think Brienne acts honorably most of the time, the terms of what she considers honorable may change depending on the situation and the person.  Is it honorable to stick it to Melissendre and Davos by telling them Stannis is dead when he isn't....it depends on the situation.  Which is something we may not yet be privy to.

[Dobian]

4 hours ago, annsterg said:

Arya's revenge on the Freys was almost exactly as I imagined it would be. It would be even better if she takes Walder Frey's face and becomes him and wreaks even more havoc from inside, but that's probably a bit too much. Did she kill that serving maid to take the face or did she grab a few in the Hall of Faces?
 

That would have been out of character for her to kill an innocent out of expediency.  I am guessing the waif had a few faces on her that Arya grabbed.

[One Tough Cookie]

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

[slf]

14 minutes ago, RCharter said:

1. He could have offered her something, he could have given her some reasoning that made her not want to kill him....etc, etc

2. To me its odd, because no two people are the same, so to compare them to each other and play a "because x is sort of like y, x must always react in the same way as y."  So to me, that doesn't make much sense.  Stannis could have offered an explanation that made Brienne re-consider the honor in killing him.

3. Not at all.....Brienne has had times where she likes to stick it to people.  And if part of any conversation with Stannis included Brienne telling people he was dead....so much better.  

4.  If you want to say that you don't think that Brienne will do something based on her character, I think thats at least an understandable argument.  Saying that she isn't going to do something because Ned wouldn't have done it makes no sense to me.  I think both arguments are wrong, but one is at least understandable.  While I think Brienne acts honorably most of the time, the terms of what she considers honorable may change depending on the situation and the person.  Is it honorable to stick it to Melissendre and Davos by telling them Stannis is dead when he isn't....it depends on the situation.  Which is something we may not yet be privy to.

The idea that Brienne would lie about Stannis being dead as part of some ploy with Stannis - the man who killed her beloved Renly - is beyond baffling to me. Stannis was driven by duty and he wouldn't fake his own death. Brienne is driven by a desire to be honorable; working with the man that murdered her King is not honorable. 

The show has also officially confirmed that Stannis is dead. So, you know, there's that. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by slf

[RCharter]

3 minutes ago, slf said:

The idea that Brienne would lie about Stannis being dead as part of some ploy with Stannis - the man who killed her beloved Renly - is beyond baffling to me. Stannis was driven by duty and he wouldn't fake his own death. Brienne is driven by a desire to be honorable; working with the man that murdered her King is not honorable. 

The show has also officially confirmed that Stannis is dead.So, you know, there's that. 

I think "shows" have a history of saying one thing and doing another, so I wouldn't put all my stock in that.  There have been some recent stories of misdirection, to the point of outright lying about things.

The idea that Brienne would be open to an explanation and that Stannis doesn't want to be found don't seem that far fetched for either of them.

I think Brienne has shown herself to be the type of person that has her honor, but part of her growth has been to see that there are grey situations.  That sometimes an allegiance can change because of a situation.  To me, it seemed like her world was very black and white when she was with Renly.  Currently, I think she recognizes some shades of grey....and has had to learn how to deal with them.  

"Working with" Stannis is not the same as not killing him, and talking smack to two people about how you did.

Edited June 27, 2016 by RCharter

[Drogo]

20 minutes ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

Benjamin Franklin once said "Three people can keep a secret... if two of them are dead."  

Ned promised to keep the child safe, and that's just what he did. 

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

Now that Cersei 9/11'd the Great Sept and everyone in it, she has certainly cemented herself as the number one uber villain of the series.  She'll eventually get hers, but how she gets it and by whom will be the most interesting.  My suspicion is that it will be by Jaime's hand.  The two of them are entwined together, and I think their fates will be entwined in a Shakespearean tragedy sort of way.

As to who will be the ultimate winners in this story, I think at least one of the big players has to lose among Dany, Jon, and Sansa.  There is only one Iron Throne, after all.

I don't think Jon or Sansa wants that ugly chair, if either of them sit it, it will be do to some circumstance; not them wanting it. 

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Benjamin Franklin once said "Three people can keep a secret... if two of them are dead."  

Ned promised to keep the child safe, and that's just what he did. 

I agree.  My guess is Ned believed his sister when she told him Robert would kill Jon if he knew he was her son by Rheagar.  Ned knew Robert very well back then, and knew what he was capable of.  And he knew the only way to make sure Robert never, ever found out about it was to keep that info to himself. 

He also maybe did not want to put the burden of keeping that secret all her life.  He didn't know how things would turn out, and with Robert as King, anything could happen.  He might have been trying to protect Cat if she were ever forced to answer questions from her King.

[Mz Anthrope]

The scene where Tommen jumps through the window reminded me of the scene in Dead Poet's Society where the actor takes off Puck's crown and sets it on the window sill.  I knew what would then happen.

And, although I haven't yet had a chance to read through all of everyone else's comments, I've started rewatching and had a horrible thought.  I am wondering if Cersi figured Tommen would be in attendance on the trial, so his being dead was a forgone conclusion to her?  His having jumped out the window was just a different way for him to have gone.  Understandably, he was running late, and FrankenMountain at that point held him back, but she may have only found out about his still being there from the person who'd been to his room previously.  So, she planned on his being dead one way or the other... ?

I teared up with Davos confronting the Red Witch.  His love for Shereen was more than evident even before.  She had nothing to say to anything - nothing with any stick to it.

And I really didn't like the look between Sansa and Dickfinger.  I don't think that bodes well for Jon.

Lady Mormont - you are one fierce, awesome being.  I hope she doesn't die an ugly death on here.

FrankenMountain torturing the woman who'd taken such pleasure in meeting out 'justice' to Cersi is going to be ugly, but did anyone see what he might actually have been *doing* to her when she started to scream holy terrors?  We couldn't figure it out.  His arms, to us, didn't look like they were moving at all.

My husband and I are both feeling the timeline whiplash.  I get that characters were being developed 'along the trail' in the beginning and I really enjoyed the relationships formed.  Watching Brienne and Jaime, Bron and Tyrion, and the Hound and Arya was some of the most enjoyable storylines for me.  And I get the action is having to move quicker because winter has FINALLY arrived, but damn... the Varys left, is now in Dorne, but wait, he's now on the ships with Dany and crew.  Takes something from the enjoyment for us.

Really good episode over all and fancheered several times :-)    It would be delicious to see Arya slake the life from Cersi, but I am wondering if Jaime's going to beat her to it.

[GrailKing]

18 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Lady Mormont rocks! I love her! She has true grit.

So glad to see Sansa  Arya get her revenge on Fray. The Fray boys! It's what's for dinner! Straight out of "Titus Andronicus."

Cersei never thinks things through does she? Even though she hated Margaery, she should have kept her at the keep for Tommen's sake. Loved Lady Oleanna shutting up those Sand Snakes.

Fixed that for you, I love Sansa but she was sort of busy up North. And she hasn't yet found Petyr's fast jet.

[slf]

24 minutes ago, RCharter said:

I think "shows" have a history of saying one thing and doing another, so I wouldn't put all my stock in that.  There have been some recent stories of misdirection, to the point of outright lying about things.

The idea that Brienne would be open to an explanation and that Stannis doesn't want to be found don't seem that far fetched for either of them.

I think Brienne has shown herself to be the type of person that has her honor, but part of her growth has been to see that there are grey situations.  That sometimes an allegiance can change because of a situation.  To me, it seemed like her world was very black and white when she was with Renly.  Currently, I think she recognizes some shades of grey....and has had to learn how to deal with them.  

"Working with" Stannis is not the same as not killing him, and talking smack to two people about how you did.

Okay. Why? What reason do they have to write Stannis this way? This theory requires both Stannis and Brienne to have radical shifts in priorities and to have them around the same time. Wanting to avenge Renly has been one of Brienne's most important motivations since his death. Stannis has absolutely been about duty, protecting the realm from usurpers, etc. So Stannis just....gets her to not kill him. Despite the fact he murdered Renly and his own child? And this happened off-screen? So what is Stannis' aim? To just fuck off into the ether? Or is he going to raise another army from nowhere and take the throne?

The only way that is even semi-plausible is if Brienne just decided killing him was wrong and sending him to the wall to take the black makes more sense. But again, it's completely dependent on OOC behavior, off-screen negotiating, and a host of other factors.

I'm just not buying it.

[annsterg]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I don't think Jon or Sansa wants that ugly chair, if either of them sit it, it will be do to some circumstance; not them wanting it. 

Exactly. I think Sansa's demeanor this entire episode is pretty clear: she now has what she's wanted for the past 5 seasons: she's home with her family (such as it is) to a Winterfell held by the Starks, and safe. Or as safe as anyone can be.

Littlefinger doesn't see this, because he still wants what he doesn't have. Sansa has what she wants now and I think she will do almost anything to keep it.

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, slf said:

 So what is Stannis' aim? To just fuck off into the ether? Or is he going to raise another army from nowhere and take the throne?

Maybe Stannis joined one of those religious cults so popular in Westeros these days or maybe he went into witness protection so he will not have to repay the Iron Bank. Bwah! 

Edited June 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[slf]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

Maybe Stannis joined one of those religion cults so popular in Westeros these days or maybe he went into witness protection so he will not have to repay the Iron Bank. Bwah! 

Heh. Yeah, Stannis is an all-or-nothing kind of guy. Just...abandoning his campaign...I don't see it. He allowed his daughter to be burned to death for this. Faking his own death just doesn't fit with his character.

[Lady S.]

7 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Benjamin Franklin once said "Three people can keep a secret... if two of them are dead."  

Ned promised to keep the child safe, and that's just what he did. 

Also, Ned and Cat didn't love each other back when all this happened. As she once explained to Robb, they built their love brick by brick after getting married as mere acquaintances. Maybe he should have told her after he grew to know and love her, but that's a pretty big lie to undo, and it could be he didn't feel right sharing that secret until he was ready to share it with Jon himself.

I don't know that I'd agree about Ned keeping Jon safe, though. At Winterfell, sure, but allowing Jon to join a military order/penal colony may not have been exactly what Lyanna had in mind for her baby. Or maybe that part of the plan was in her inaudible whispering.

10 minutes ago, Mz Anthrope said:

And, although I haven't yet had a chance to read through all of everyone else's comments, I've started rewatching and had a horrible thought.  I am wondering if Cersi figured Tommen would be in attendance on the trial, so his being dead was a forgone conclusion to her?  His having jumped out the window was just a different way for him to have gone.  Understandably, he was running late, and FrankenMountain at that point held him back, but she may have only found out about his still being there from the person who'd been to his room previously.  So, she planned on his being dead one way or the other... ?

I don't think Cersei planned on Tommen's death just because she didn't mention it in her confession to Shame Nun, and she wanted her evilness on full display to that woman even before the torture began. Also, the reason Tommen didn't go to the trial was because Frankenmountain was guarding him until it was time to deal with Shame Nun. Tommen was dragging his feet about going but he was going to go until mama's monster stopped him.

52 minutes ago, Dobian said:

That would have been out of character for her to kill an innocent out of expediency.  I am guessing the waif had a few faces on her that Arya grabbed.

Or the spot on the wall where she stored the Waif's face originally had another face there. 

[annsterg]

Yeah, the Iron Bank is getting screwed all over the place these days. First, the loan to Stannis....oops. Then the loan to the Iron Throne, facilitated by Lord Tyrell...the chance of repayment is not looking so good these days and the collateral assets are deteriorating.

[SimoneS]

56 minutes ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

I can see Ned keeping that secret from Cat. Yes, she was hurt, but if she knew the truth about Jon's parentage, she wouldn't be angry and resentful which would have made people suspicious. Also, she could have slipped up, talked to Ned about Jon, and one of the servants overhear them. 

It was probably bad enough that Howland Reed and the midwife (and maybe Benjen) knew the truth. Ned was committing treason keeping Jon alive and a secret,  If Robert had found out, he wouldn't have only killed Jon, he might have slaughtered Ned and his whole family. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Cersei isn't smart, intelligent or clever.  The only reason she's sitting on the Iron Throne is because someone else told her about the wildfires or bombs or whatever, underneath Kings Landing.  She didn't know about them.  Another person might not have told her at all, and then set the thing off in the middle of the trial, killing everybody, Cersei included. 

Season 2 the pyromancer went to Cersei with WF and she ordered them to start making more, Tyrion finds out about it and told them they will be making it for him now, not Cersei.

What she didn't know is if it was around the whole city.

[Nanrad]

4 hours ago, RCharter said:

1. He could have offered her something, he could have given her some reasoning that made her not want to kill him....etc, etc

2. To me its odd, because no two people are the same, so to compare them to each other and play a "because x is sort of like y, x must always react in the same way as y."  So to me, that doesn't make much sense.  Stannis could have offered an explanation that made Brienne re-consider the honor in killing him.

3. Not at all.....Brienne has had times where she likes to stick it to people.  And if part of any conversation with Stannis included Brienne telling people he was dead....so much better.  

4.  If you want to say that you don't think that Brienne will do something based on her character, I think thats at least an understandable argument.  Saying that she isn't going to do something because Ned wouldn't have done it makes no sense to me.  I think both arguments are wrong, but one is at least understandable.  While I think Brienne acts honorably most of the time, the terms of what she considers honorable may change depending on the situation and the person.  Is it honorable to stick it to Melissendre and Davos by telling them Stannis is dead when he isn't....it depends on the situation.  Which is something we may not yet be privy to.

1. I get that, I just don't honestly believe that Stannis had anything Brienne wanted.

2. No two people are the same, but they can be very similar. The point is: both people are known for their honor because of this, they are more likely to react similarly than dissimilar. You don't become known for your honor in Westeros unless you are really about that life. And what we see with Ned and Brienne is that their word is bond for them. And breaking their word--going against their honor isn't a decision made lightly. Brienne isn't EXACTLY like Ned, but just like him, I doubt she'd break her honor unless it was something extreme. Other than that, it's ooc.

3.Brienne sticks it to people with Brute honestly as we've seen her done not by lying.

4. Actually, I didn't say she wouldn't do something because Ned wouldn't, I compared them and pointed out their similarities mainly the honor thing that their both known for. When a honorable person acts against their nature, it's largely due to an extreme development. What is honorable about lying to them UNLESS that is tied to whatever Stannis said/offered??? I doubt we're going to get that.

4 hours ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

Well, they DIDN'T know each other when they wed. Catelyn was originally betrothed to Brandon, and then passed off to Ned when his brother was killed. They got married, consummated the marriage, and Ned then rode off to war. How could he have known he could trust Cat when they first married? Or how she'd read? Ned made a promise to his sister that he'd protect her child and the less people who know, the more he can protect Jon. Who knows if Catelyn would've accidentally slipped up? Ned controls how he can protect Jon by not admitting the truth. Also, there were other reasons Catelyn was resentful such as Jon looking more Stark than Robb. But, Catelyn not knowing made the lie more believable. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Nanrad

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

What could Stannis have possibly worked out with Brienne that was to her liking? Also, as Simones mentioned, Brienne is an honorable person. Ned only lied three times that we know of: How Arthur Dayne died, Jon being a bastard, and lying for his kids that led to his death. All of those circumstances are very understandable. I compare her to Ned because they both are known for their honor and take it seriously. So,Stannis would have to give her an offer she couldn't refuse.

I also don't image that she'd lie about Melissandre and Davos to stick it to them. Brienne killed Stannis because of what Stannis did to Renley, which was kill him. Brienne took his death hard for several reasons, but considering who was killed and how his death still has an impact on her, I just don't think she'd lie about Stannis' death to fuck with them.

I'm not sure Ned lied about Arthur Dayne, per Bran to Jojen Reed; Ned always said he be dead if it wasn't for Howland Reed, not that he killed him.

I think it's a story that got perpetuated through war talk.

[HumblePi]

2 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Thank you Jane.

In this video, the author George RR Martin explains the Stark phrase 'Winter is Coming'. It's fun to see how young everyone was then.

[Calamity Jane]

55 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Also, Ned and Cat didn't love each other back when all this happened. As she once explained to Robb, they built their love brick by brick after getting married as mere acquaintances. Maybe he should have told her after he grew to know and love her, but that's a pretty big lie to undo, and it could be he didn't feel right sharing that secret until he was ready to share it with Jon himself.

I don't know that I'd agree about Ned keeping Jon safe, though. At Winterfell, sure, but allowing Jon to join a military order/penal colony may not have been exactly what Lyanna had in mind for her baby. Or maybe that part of the plan was in her inaudible whispering.

I don't think Cersei planned on Tommen's death just because she didn't mention it in her confession to Shame Nun, and she wanted her evilness on full display to that woman even before the torture began. Also, the reason Tommen didn't go to the trial was because Frankenmountain was guarding him until it was time to deal with Shame Nun. Tommen was dragging his feet about going but he was going to go until mama's monster stopped him.

Or the spot on the wall where she stored the Waif's face originally had another face there. 

Cersei sent the Mountain to prevent Tommen from attending the trial.

[HumblePi]

1 hour ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

Catelyn talks about Jon Snow. Like the old saying goes 'treated like a redheaded stepchild', Catelyn treated Jon less favorable than her own biological children. I think that Ned Stark kept that secret from Catelyn only because of a promise he made to his sister, Lyanna to keep the secret of Jon's birth and father from King Robert who might have put Jon to death if he found out.

https://youtu.be/0k_HWCIT8nY?t=2m21s

Edited June 28, 2016 by HumblePi

[MissLucas]

15 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

In this video, the author George RR Martin explains the Stark phrase 'Winter is Coming'. It's fun to see how young everyone was then.

I think Ned's line to Jon here 'You may not have my name but you have my blood' and the Direwolf pup for Jon were major clues for me to me to look for other Starks who could have been Jon's father or mother back in season one. I never bought Ned cheating on his wife - so it had to be another Stark. Lyanna made it on top of the list of possible parents pretty fast because the idea of Jon having Stark and Targaryen blood was just too delicious.

[Hecate7]

21 hours ago, paigow said:

Tywin was never KING....Tyrion has not joined the club...

She said "considered kingslayers," which Tyrion certainly is, because although he's innocent, he is considered the murderer of King Joffrey. So Jaime actually did kill Aerys, Tyrion is believed (falsely) to have killed Joffrey, and Cersei caused the death of Tommen.

[annsterg]

Is it too much to hope that Arya left some wolf/Stark token on Walder Frey's body?

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

That was the only thing I couldn't understand with Ned. Yes, he took a considerable risk having a Targaryen child in his household when his best friend wanted to wipe all of them off the planet. He should have been able to set Cat's fears to rest concerning Jon's true parentage. But seeing Cat damn near abuse the boy for years? I can't imagine Lyanna wanted her child to be mistreated by his family! I can only assume that Cat either didn't like Lyanna for whatever reason or she was part of the Hate Targs brigade.  Why be resentful of a child when you had plenty of your own legitimate children?  That always bothered me when watching the 1st season.  I would love a prequel to explain those things...

[soulza]

8 hours ago, annsterg said:

I was sure Septa Unella would die this season. I was wrong; she only WISHES she were dead. I don't know what the Zombie Mountain was doing to her -- he was up by her head/upper torso -- and I don't want to know. There are so many unpleasant possibilities.

Why did Cersei take out Pycelle? Just because she hated the old coot?

I was hoping we'd see Brienne again. Sansa should send her to Dany to negotiate an alliance, because Dany has the 3 best weapons ever for fighting the Army of the Dead.

Speaking of which, have Jon and Co been REALLY REALLY clear with the other Northern lords about the White Walkers? We saw that Lady Mormont has the 411 but otherwise the talk seems...unnecessarily vague.

Yeah, the transportation and communication networks seem...spotty in their performance. The Maesters in Oldtown didn't know that Jeor Mormont and Maester Aemon were dead and that happened a long time ago, while Olenna knows about the deaths at the Sept and that JUST happened -- as in the smoke is still rising from the ruins. And as others have noted, Varys zoomed from Dorne to Meereen, but there were Dornish ships visible in that fleet, right?

Arya's revenge on the Freys was almost exactly as I imagined it would be. It would be even better if she takes Walder Frey's face and becomes him and wreaks even more havoc from inside, but that's probably a bit too much. Did she kill that serving maid to take the face or did she grab a few in the Hall of Faces?

So...Howland Reed -- Meera's father -- has to be the only other person who has a chance of knowing that Jon is Lyanna's son, because he was the only other person alive to see it -- he would have seen Ned go up the stairs to the Tower alone and then come down with a baby...who then "becomes" Ned's bastard. Of course, we don't know what became of the lady's maid/midwife that was in the room...kind of hard to believe that woman would have kept the secret all these years.

Sorry about poor ol' Tommen but he was too dim to live. What did he THINK was going to happen to HIM if his mother was convicted of incest? The trial's outcome was likely going to reveal that Tommen was not the true-born king and his reign would have been over.

no the three eyed raven seen the baby ? it was in the last episode so there is a witness

[Hecate7]

45 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

1. I get that, I just don't honestly believe that Stannis had anything Brienne wanted.

2 hours ago, One More Time said:

re: Jon's parentage.

It was shown right from the beginning that Ned and Catlyn loved and respected each other.  I cannot believe he brought infant Jon back with the story that he was Jon's father courtesy of a barmaid.  He had to have known that as good and forgiving and pragmatic Cat was she was going to have a serious case of resentment and dislike, if not actual hatred for the boy. And she admitted that she felt hatred for the child. I tried to put myself in Ned's shoes but I can't see putting  my spouse thru that and not telling the person I loved most in the world the truth. I think Cat would have kept the secret and it might have made Jon's childhood a little smoother.

 

Cat wasn't "the person he loved most in the world," to begin with. She was just one more typical Westerosi woman being forced to marry the guy her father picked. Ned was willing to risk that Catelyn would hate him, and probably expected her to, but that she would instead blame the innocent child and hate HIM, probably never occurred to him at all. In Catelyn's shoes Ned probably wouldn't hate the child, but would instead blame Cat for her own faithlessness (unless it was rape). So he couldn't have anticipated how much she'd hate Jon Snow. But even if he had realized that she'd hate the child, it wouldn't have changed his course. Better to be hated by your aunt that you think is your stepmother, than have her spill the beans about your actual parentage and cause Robert Baratheon's goons to raze your house and put you and everyone else there to the sword.

Like her sister and her son, Cat was impulsive and a bit stupid, unable to see past her nose and always ready to let emotion completely cloud her judgement, so it's very doubtful she could ever have kept such a secret from her sister or her children, "the people she loved most in all the world." She'd figure it'd be okay tell family. And Lyssa would figure it was ok to tell Jon Arryn--you can't keep a secret from your spouse, can you? And so on, and so on, and so on. What the Starks suffered has been mild compared to what might have been visited on them for keeping Jon Snow alive. In fact, far from loving her little nephew, Catelyn might, had she known the truth, have felt obligated to blow the whistle herself, or simply "lose" him or dispatch him quietly, to protect her own children. Because as Ned's true act of treason, Snow was a far greater threat to the family than he ever was as Ned's bastard son.

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I'm not sure Ned lied about Arthur Dayne, per Bran to Jojen Reed; Ned always said he be dead if it wasn't for Howland Reed, not that he killed him.

I think it's a story that got perpetuated through war talk.

Yes, I think Ned only lied by omission there, letting people think what they wanted of how he killed Arthur Dayne, and not throwing Howland Reed under the bus by explaining how exactly Howland saved his life. The story Bran heard from Ned was that Howland saved his life in the Rebellion, but Bran didn't say who told him the story of Ned defeating Arthur Dayne. Ned's defeat of a legendary badass could have been a legend about him from northerners who weren't even there, a legend Ned never bothered correcting for his buddy's sake more than for the sake of his own pride. Ned bragging about killing a knight he respected and lying about how he did so sounds even more implausible to me than Ned cheating on his wife in one moment of weakness.

Updated the character guide. 

[bluvelvet]

I have a different take on Tommen's death, I think Cersei sent the Mountain to keep him in his room so that he wasn't caught in the blaze.  I don't think Tommen realized his mother wasn't at the Sept. My reading of the scene was that Tommen saw the Sept blow up and thought he lost his mother, wife and uncle in one fell swoop and just couldn't deal.  I don't think he realized that Cersei caused the fire to tell the truth, he was just too naive. I also don't think Cersei thought he would commit suicide but she had accepted that he would die someday.

Edited June 28, 2016 by bluvelvet
changed "he" to "she"

[ParadoxLost]

12 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Cat wasn't "the person he loved most in the world," to begin with. She was just one more typical Westerosi woman being forced to marry the guy her father picked. Ned was willing to risk that Catelyn would hate him, and probably expected her to, but that she would instead blame the innocent child and hate HIM, probably never occurred to him at all. In Catelyn's shoes Ned probably wouldn't hate the child, but would instead blame Cat for her own faithlessness (unless it was rape). So he couldn't have anticipated how much she'd hate Jon Snow.

Cat aggravated me more often than not; but there was nothing surprising about her reaction to Jon.  This is a world where kids are given a name designating them bastards of a region, not even of a specific family, if they are acknowledged at all.  This is a world where they take children and raise them as hostages.  Cat was never a paragon and in this world, looking past Jon's origins would take a paragon.

[HumblePi]

22 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I have a different take on Tommen's death, I think Cersei sent the Mountain to keep him in his room so that he wasn't caught in the blaze.  I don't think Tommen realized his mother wasn't at the Sept. My reading of the scene was that Tommen saw the Sept blow up and thought he lost his mother, wife and uncle in one fell swoop and just couldn't deal.  I don't think he realized that Cersei caused the fire to tell the truth, he was just too naive. I also don't think Cersei thought he would commit suicide but he had accepted that he would die someday.

I thought that too for about 3 seconds. After retrieving his body, Cersei had no wish to have a proper funeral in the castle for Tommen, she had no wish to give him a crypt in the family entombment. She wanted him burned and his ashes buried under what remained of the exploded and destroyed Great Sept. This isn't a mother who cared about her son enough to give him a decent funeral and burial. This was the act of an evil mind who wanted Tommen out of the way so she could take the throne. It's what she wanted all along. Once Tommen 'went to the other side' with the new holy alliance between the Faith of the Seven and the Iron Throne, he was no good to Cersei anymore. Tommen knew instantly when he saw the explosive destruction of the Great Sept that he lost Margary and it was at the hands of his own mother. Everything he cared for was destroyed in that blast and he had no desire to live under his mother's rule.

Edited June 28, 2016 by HumblePi

[Hecate7]

5 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Cat aggravated me more often than not; but there was nothing surprising about her reaction to Jon.  This is a world where kids are given a name designating them bastards of a region, not even of a specific family, if they are acknowledged at all.  This is a world where they take children and raise them as hostages.  Cat was never a paragon and in this world, looking past Jon's origins would take a paragon.

I don't think Ned would see it that way, although you may be right. Try as I might, there are only two other characters in the entire story that I can imagine hating the baby the way Cat does. Lyssa Tully, and Cersei Lannister. The difference is that unlike Cat, who at least does raise the child, Cersei or Lyssa would have killed him right away. Cat was too nice to do that. But I picture Gilly, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, or Danaerys in Cat's shoes, and they blame the cheating man and the mother, but not the child. They are not typical women of their culture, of course, but Cat's choice to hate Jon Snow and excuse Ned smacks of a certain kind of "kiss up, kick down" mentality I just can't stomach. And although it would not surprise a psychologist or an expert on the behavior of oppressed minorities or women, it WOULD surprise Ned.

14 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I have a different take on Tommen's death, I think Cersei sent the Mountain to keep him in his room so that he wasn't caught in the blaze.  I don't think Tommen realized his mother wasn't at the Sept. My reading of the scene was that Tommen saw the Sept blow up and thought he lost his mother, wife and uncle in one fell swoop and just couldn't deal.  I don't think he realized that Cersei caused the fire to tell the truth, he was just too naive. I also don't think Cersei thought he would commit suicide but he had accepted that he would die someday.

She did indeed send the Mountain to keep him in his room so that he wasn't caught in the blaze. But how, Tommen, did she know there was going to be a blaze?

[DarkRaichu]

11 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

I thought that too for about 3 seconds. After retrieving his body, Cersei had no wish to have a proper funeral in the castle for Tommen, she had no wish to give him a crypt in the family entombment. She wanted him burned and his ashes buried under what remained of the exploded and destroyed Great Sept. This isn't a mother who cared about her son enough to give him a decent funeral and burial. This was the act of an evil mind who wanted Tommen out of the way so she could take the throne. It's what she wanted all along.

On the contrary, Jeoffrey and Myrcella were buried under the Great Sept, their graves /crypt presumably got blown up along with the building.  Cersei told Qyburn to burn Tommen and bury the ashes where the Great Sept was, precisely BECAUSE she wanted Tommen to join his brother and sister.

[HumblePi]

29 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

On the contrary, Jeoffrey and Myrcella were buried under the Great Sept, their graves /crypt presumably got blown up along with the building.  Cersei told Qyburn to burn Tommen and bury the ashes where the Great Sept was, precisely BECAUSE she wanted Tommen to join his brother and sister.

okay, I didn't know they were under the Great Sept. Next question for next year....will the Kingslayer also be the Queenslayer?

Edited June 28, 2016 by HumblePi