Season Four Discussion

[Mya Stone]

Finished your binge? Talk about the season as a whole here! 

[Chairperson Meow]

Things that bothered me about this season:

Beardo can look at inmate files to "figure out" why Red is in prison, making her the one who killed the guard, and that Maria is in a gang because of her crimes.  Yet, he doesn't look at Chapman's even though she keeps coming to his office and is in every altercation.   One look would tell him or anyone that she started the panty bs, as she smuggled drugs/money internationally and had a business at the time she surrendered.   She'd have the connections to do it, not a lower middle class girl from the city who was there for gang activity and selling drugs.    Also, wtf was Beardo kicked out of men's max for that was so bad Caputo and Danny had to uncover it?  

Poussey's death.   I get they're trying to stay relevant with society,  but taking the only two likable characters and killing one and emotionally wrecking the other?  Wtf.  I liked how they showed how media can/does spin deaths.   I also liked that Caputo didn't want to throw either Poussey nor Bayley under the bus.   The actor playing Bayley grew on me.  The scene in the chapel, where he's talking to Coates- a rapist/stalker- and he comes clean about the panty scheme and Piper trying to give him a hand job, just for Coates to say he's never been tempted angered and broke my heart because the actor playing Bayley just said so much with his face.  If he was meant to be a Bennett lite he exceeded expectations.  I hope he comes back.  The show broke me in both ways.

Coates:

Wtf.  Why the hell is Tucky befriending her rapist?  Because he "loves" her?  Because he "didn't mean to"?  He "raped with love".   Freaking gross.  

And fuck Piper.   I'd trade her for Poussey anyday. Also the creepy ass Hannibal Lechter guard was scary af.    I miss the old guards.  Even Pornstache.  

[ciprus]

Initial thoughts on the season as a whole:

Last year I actually liked the MCC storyline, the way the privatization of the prison affected the inmates and guards alike. I could actually feel some sympathy for the CO's, but the new ones are mostly sadists or power-tripping assholes. The old CO's had personalities that weren't so completely off-putting, they were entertaining. And bringing a gun to prison, on top of everything else? Fucking evil morons.

I think Caputo is caught between a rock and a hard place, and it's frustrating to watch. I guess the road to hell is paved with good intentions. He accomplished almost nothing he set out to. The best thing he did this season was cheat on his bitchy girlfriend with Fig. Although I had to laugh when he said to Fig that he shouldn't have judged her because her job was impossible. She was also embezzling from the prison, which led to this whole mess but whatever.

Piper was super annoying until she got branded. I know it's horrible, but it worked to redeem her for me. I'm sort of glad she and Alex are back together, mostly because they need each other. 

Alex's storyline this season was her best for me. I was relieved when Lolly went to psych, and I'm fascinated that she didn't manage to blab to anyone about Alex and Frieda's involvement. 

I'm glad that Nicky is back, I seriously missed her last season and the first half of S4. I thought the season picked up when she arrived. I also thought her relapse was well done, and I liked the honesty between her and Morello (sorry, MRS. Muccio) in the finale.

Sofia's story was on the back burner, but it worked for me anyway because it was well done. That scene where Nicky found her bloodied cell really got to me. Anyway, good that she's back and that she and Mendoza are friends. I hope she knows Mendoza and Sister Ingalls really showed up for her.

Judy King, what a POS. A total user. I hope she gets squashed between all the rivaling inmates and CO's in the beginning of next season. Her threesome with Luschek and Yoga Jones was something to behold, and not in a good way. 

I get what they're doing with Mr. Rape and Pennsatucky. The last scene between them was disturbing, because it showed me that even though he's sorry for what he did and she forgave him, he's still a threat to her. She's still scared of him but she's socialized in to thinking he's a decent guy. The fact that he is now one of the nicer CO's on the show now is seriously fucked up. I'm glad Boo will not let Tucky, Mr Rape or the audience forget what kind of man he is. Typical that he was crying about CO Baxter fucking up his life (yeah, that was tragic too) but didn't mention that a girl died.

Hate that Poussey died. They could have killed almost anyone else and I would have been fine. It's difficult when a show you know as somewhat lighthearted goes so dark that it kills one of it's most positive characters. Poussey and Soso were the lightness of this season for me, and I was rooting for those two to figure everything out. The show might have gone to far for my liking. I'm not sure, I have to process for a while.

I have to say, I've kind of had it with Crazy Eyes. She shouldn't be in gen pop. She's not mean spirited, but she's a lose canon and she's done so much damage over the years. She needs professional help (although I don't wish anyone to go to Litch's psych ward). She indirectly caused a child's death, almost beat Kuku to death (probably would have if Maria and friends hadn't pulled her off) and also had a play in how Poussey died. I don't blame Suzanne, she cannot help herself obviously - but she needs to go away. I'm amazed at how patient all the friends were after Poussey died, I don't think I would have been able to handle it.

Overall, it was a good season. I still care about most of the characters, even though I complain I thought the season was well done (better than last) overall. Just super depressing in the last two episodes. Other than that, I thought the mix between drama and comedy was perfect.

[leighdear]

That was sad, but not entirely unexpected that one of the "usual suspects" wasn't going to make it out alive.  I didn't care much for Poussey, so I'm fine with the end of her story, though I know I'm in the minority.

Lots of up-in-the-air situations, so there are plenty of places for season 5 to go.  I was happy to have almost no Stella, since I disliked her character. 

I kept waiting for Linda to really screw over Caputo, with her entire relationship with him being a set-up from the beginning.  I guess she did like him, though she was a pretty toxic person.  I'd like to see him push that advocacy for the inmates further next season.  

I can do without anymore Healy next season.  His suicide almost-attempt was just pitiful, though we did get to see some of his "mommy issues" backstory for clarification.  With Lolly gone, he can go too. 

It seemed like an abrupt ending and not particularly satisfying to me.  I dislike when a show makes a season end that is so blatantly "But of course we'll be back for the next 372 seasons, as we are SOOOOOO fabulous that we could never be cancelled".  This show IS really good, and I was very glad to have it back, but I don't care for the conceit.  It allows for too many loose ends and feels messy to me, even though I know real life is messy. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by leighdear

[kdm07]

I'll probably come back with a more detailed post but now that I'm done with the season, here are my initial thoughts:

- A step up from Season 3 for sure. I can see why Netflix renewed it for another two seasons. They had some great lines placed all over the season that'll probably be quoted all over the internet for some time.

- I want the new COs gone and gone for good. From Piscatello down (who probably got sent from the men's max because even the warden there knew he was awful), they're all power-hungry, abusive, deranged assholes and they shouldn't be anywhere near women in a minimum security prison.

- Caputo started off with the right intentions but the minute he started to try and work with MSC or whatever they're called you knew things were going to go bad and fast. I also understand him trying to protect Bayley (Bailey?) because it truly was an accident but the spin he put on it is troubling. Now they have a riot on their hands. (Didn't Bayley say in a previous episode that he hoped the prisoners never turned on them because they were outnumbered?)

- I like Alex and Piper, together and apart. Piper needed her wake up call and she got it in a big way. Alex also has to find her way through as well and you could see from the minute she decided to kill the hit-man that it would affect her forever. Also really enjoyed the Alex/Lolly and their Laurel and Hardy-esque relationship.

- I liked seeing Maria, Blanca and Maritza's flashbacks as well because again, as with all the other flashbacks, they give you so much insight into what we have today. Suzanne's flashback was heart-breaking.

- I know why they did it, I understand the symbolism and the message they're trying to send but man, am I still broken up about Poussey. I'm going to miss her brand of optimism and lightness in the prison. I'm also afraid of what it'll mean for Taystee in the future because she looks like she's ready to go on the warpath.

Edited June 18, 2016 by kdm07

[Chairperson Meow]

Yeah, I think Poussey is literally the only character that they could kill that anyone would care about, storyline wise and audience wise.  But I still have to give props to the actor playing Bayley.   He literally broke my heart too in his scene with Piper and the scenes with Coates.  He's a really good actor.  I was kind of annoyed with Lorna till the scenes where she started to go crazy again.  I wonder if Vinnie learned what really happened with Christopher and that's why he's not visiting her.  

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, they pretty much screwed up when they killed Poussey. She is one of....probably three or four that I didn't ever want dead (Brook, Pennsatucky, and probably Nicky) and then they up and kill her. It definitely caused a lot of heartbreak, but damn if I wished it was anyone else. Cindy, Taystee, Piper, Alex, hell even Gloria. Anyone else wouldn't have made me so enraged, but props to them for doing something gutsy. 

I found myself loving Bayley, and I still love him. The actor did a hell of a job. His storyline for next season is going to be awful; none of the inmates are going to like him and he is going to find it very difficult to survive, if he even decides to keep his job (I'll bet he will be forced by the MCC to keep his job now, so it doesn't make them look liable). 

The rest of the guards don't fare as well. I liked Piscatella until about halfway through. Most of the guards are dicks. McCullough goes back and forth, especially when she just accepted the brotherhood with the other veterans and went along with the shiv story. Coates can go jump himself off of the building because even though Pennsatucky forgave him, their last scene together absolutely turned me off. I was willing to maybe push past and think he might be working hard at being a better guy, but nothing of the finale convinced me of that anymore. He's creepy and I hope Boo kicks his rear end out the front door. Maybe kick him over Freida's way. 

The new white girls (no clue what their names are) can also disappear. They're disgusting and I don't like them at all. I don't care if they're reminiscent of Pennsatucky in the first couple of seasons. I don't care that their leader seemed to be half remorseful in the finale. I'm sick and tired of those racist girls who have consistently started shit this season. Everyone's been racist, but they've taken it far. 

Caputo chose sides and now he's a corporate because of it. I blame him for choosing. I know he wanted to defend both, but what he said at the conference absolutely implicated Poussey as the aggressor when he could have planned out anything else to say. I get he had no choice because not implicating either holds MCC liable. But damn dude, when you get the wrath of all the inmates next season, that's on you. 

They did manage to redeem Piper, though. I guess I'll accept her and Alex together, because it does make her a better person. Just keep them in the background for a while. 

Next season, they might want to think about dropping a couple of characters. Healy's kind of not really redeemed himself. He can go and he can bring in a new counsellor who can do their job better. Most of the guards can go, and just bring in ones that are more competent. A few other characters can stick to the background, and maybe have a couple more get released. Suzanne and Maureen can also go, because I'm tired of them. Judy King can also shuffle her way out. She frustrated me by the last couple of episodes.

[WhosThatGirl]

35 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, they pretty much screwed up when they killed Poussey. She is one of....probably three or four that I didn't ever want dead (Brook, Pennsatucky, and probably Nicky) and then they up and kill her. It definitely caused a lot of heartbreak, but damn if I wished it was anyone else. Cindy, Taystee, Piper, Alex, hell even Gloria. Anyone else wouldn't have made me so enraged, but props to them for doing something gutsy. 

I found myself loving Bayley, and I still love him. The actor did a hell of a job. His storyline for next season is going to be awful; none of the inmates are going to like him and he is going to find it very difficult to survive, if he even decides to keep his job (I'll bet he will be forced by the MCC to keep his job now, so it doesn't make them look liable). 

The rest of the guards don't fare as well. I liked Piscatella until about halfway through. Most of the guards are dicks. McCullough goes back and forth, especially when she just accepted the brotherhood with the other veterans and went along with the shiv story. Coates can go jump himself off of the building because even though Pennsatucky forgave him, their last scene together absolutely turned me off. I was willing to maybe push past and think he might be working hard at being a better guy, but nothing of the finale convinced me of that anymore. He's creepy and I hope Boo kicks his rear end out the front door. Maybe kick him over Freida's way. 

The new white girls (no clue what their names are) can also disappear. They're disgusting and I don't like them at all. I don't care if they're reminiscent of Pennsatucky in the first couple of seasons. I don't care that their leader seemed to be half remorseful in the finale. I'm sick and tired of those racist girls who have consistently started shit this season. Everyone's been racist, but they've taken it far. 

Caputo chose sides and now he's a corporate because of it. I blame him for choosing. I know he wanted to defend both, but what he said at the conference absolutely implicated Poussey as the aggressor when he could have planned out anything else to say. I get he had no choice because not implicating either holds MCC liable. But damn dude, when you get the wrath of all the inmates next season, that's on you. 

They did manage to redeem Piper, though. I guess I'll accept her and Alex together, because it does make her a better person. Just keep them in the background for a while. 

Next season, they might want to think about dropping a couple of characters. Healy's kind of not really redeemed himself. He can go and he can bring in a new counsellor who can do their job better. Most of the guards can go, and just bring in ones that are more competent. A few other characters can stick to the background, and maybe have a couple more get released. Suzanne and Maureen can also go, because I'm tired of them. Judy King can also shuffle her way out. She frustrated me by the last couple of episodes.

I agree, with everything you said and more and I'll add on my thoughts.

I still think I dislike Piper more and more as this show goes on. The only scene out of this season I liked was her scene with Bayley when she told him Poussey's friend couldn't hear him apologize. They couldn't then and there's a chance they never will be able to. But aside from that, for a main character she sure does keep away from a lot of big things happen if you ask me.

As for the guards, they are all terrible. I wanted to like Coate's again because when Pennstucky told him what he did, he really did seem to be feeling some sort of remorse for the situation, only then to ruin in his last scene. I get why Penn forgave him but I wish that would be the least of it. The women guard is the absolute worst, to me, it seemed like she went along with the story of the shiv because it's a "boys club" kind of thing which..ugh.

The worst thing for me is that I finally admitted  having a favorite character and then they kill her off?!?!?! I can only think this is what people who watch Game of Thrones feel like. I didn't expect it at all. I'm heartbroken. It's a big move though. I'm surprised they did it.  The only other character death on this show was Vee and that only made me sad for Suzanne- UNO cards- but I really didn't think this show was much of a show where people would die. It never had that feel to me. 

[RCharter]

Oh thank goodness for this thread.  I keep forgetting what was in each episode because I binge watch like a fiend.

Overall, I thought this season was good.  I appreciated that they focused on characters other than Piper and Alex.  Because Piper was kind of the very worst most of the season, for me.  I gave exactly zero fucks about her panty business, except that she was being a total wang to control the market or whatever.

The new guards are the very, very worst.....and this is what happens when you put a public function in private hands.  Prisons are a place where the state has total control over the prisoner....which is why safeguards are in place.  And psychological evaluations.  Yes, you'll get a pornstache or two....but goodness, you're not going to get a guy that wants to make you eat a fucking live baby mouse or dead flies.  You probably aren't going to get guys that feel like its a good idea to let inmates stand on tables and piss themselves.  Although I did hear about fight clubs.  But a lot of these guys, especially dudes like Piscatelli, are the sort that have probably submitted applications to every police force, FBI unit, border patrol station, and TSA position they can find.  And they probably get to a certain point, and someone does a basic psychological evaluation and realizes he is a mistake.  Or someone just gets a serious case of the willies and doesn't want to hire him.

I'm surprised that Caputo didn't see it immediately, but I guess he was so overrun -- and had he had time to consider it, he would have seen Piscatelli for the psychopath that he was.

I enjoy that the season really touched on some pertinent issues in policing...including the effects of long stretches of time in the SHU.  I've watched a lot of LockUp, and while I know I would be annoyed, I realize that something has to fundamentally rot in the brain by being in isolation.  Some of those guys would smear feces all over their cell.....I don't think you do that unless there is something going very, very wrong.  They would cut themselves just to feel something, or just to get to go to medical and have interaction with another human being.  I'm not sure what the solution is, because you need a way to punish prisoners that act out, but there are very real effects to time in the SHU.

And of course the use of particular techniques to subdue prisoners.....the effects of lack of training.....the effect of lack of meaningful educational program....the institution of a modern day chain gang under the guise of "education,"....the scary world of for profit prisons.....and the fact that understaffed prisons are being tasked with caring for inmates with psychological problems.

I hope that next season they tell me the story of Frieda, because I suspect she has a very colorful past.

[shantown]

Is there any indicators of the timespan this season covered? It seemed like it covered only a few weeks in OITNB-land, but I was wondering if I missed any clues as to the dates things were happening. In the past there have been holidays, etc that kind of help, but this season I missed if it covered a few weeks or several months.

ETA: I think my favorite thing this season was the intersection of lives in the flashbacks - Freida and Donaldson being in a Bayley flashback, Bayley being in a Poussey flashback, etc.

Edited June 18, 2016 by shantown

[Mya Stone]

I can sum this season up with this one thought: 

 

I can not believe I actually liked Piscatella at first. 

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, they pretty much screwed up when they killed Poussey. She is one of....probably three or four that I didn't ever want dead (Brook, Pennsatucky, and probably Nicky) and then they up and kill her. It definitely caused a lot of heartbreak, but damn if I wished it was anyone else. Cindy, Taystee, Piper, Alex, hell even Gloria. Anyone else wouldn't have made me so enraged, but props to them for doing something gutsy. 

I found myself loving Bayley, and I still love him. The actor did a hell of a job. His storyline for next season is going to be awful; none of the inmates are going to like him and he is going to find it very difficult to survive, if he even decides to keep his job (I'll bet he will be forced by the MCC to keep his job now, so it doesn't make them look liable). 

Next season, they might want to think about dropping a couple of characters. Healy's kind of not really redeemed himself. He can go and he can bring in a new counsellor who can do their job better. Most of the guards can go, and just bring in ones that are more competent. A few other characters can stick to the background, and maybe have a couple more get released. Suzanne and Maureen can also go, because I'm tired of them. Judy King can also shuffle her way out. She frustrated me by the last couple of episodes.

So..my question was....why couldn't Pescatella be the fall guy?  He is already an awful guy, and you just know he has a shitty past.  I guess he is an MCC hire so they may not want to bring up his past because it would make them liable.  But if they said that they didn't really know how far he would go?  But Pescatella is the damn worst, and I really hope they don't bring him back next season.  I can deal with the regular sort of asshole-y guards, I could even deal with Pornstache.....but I just can't with that guy.

But just make Pescatella the fall guy because he didn't properly train the men or whatever.  Make Bayley just sound like a poor sap who was following orders and doing the best he could...or better yet that Pescatella was the one that escalated the entire situation, or whatever.

I love Bayley too, I think he is just too adorable.....but I think Coates is right, I don't think he will ever be the same.  If he goes back to work he will be changed, and I can't imagine it will be for the better.

I'm sad Poussay is gone -- but I think it would have hurt me more to lose Cindy or Taystee.  I would have happily accepted the death of Piper...or Alex.....they both annoy me.

[Mya Stone]

Also, I was texting my best friend who finished the season before me. I sent her this during THAT SCENE: 

 

Yes, that is actually me. And yes, I cried. The nurse in me went CAN ANYONE FREAKING DO CPR LIKE NOW

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, Mya Stone said:

Also, I was texting my best friend who finished the season before me. I sent her this during THAT SCENE: 

 

Yes, that is actually me. And yes, I cried. The nurse in me went CAN ANYONE FREAKING DO CPR LIKE NOW

I know....I kept expecting her to like heave in a breath.  I couldn't believe that they actually had her die.  I know its lazy writing to half kill a character or whatever...but if there was ever a time, I wish it would have been this one time.

[QQQQ]

Quote

Is there any indicators of the timespan this season covered? It seemed like it covered only a few weeks in OITNB-land, but I was wondering if I missed any clues as to the dates things were happening. In the past there have been holidays, etc that kind of help, but this season I missed if it covered a few weeks or several months.

The garden might provide clues i.e. growth of veggies. The burying of the hitman certainly put a new twist on the saying "Knee high by the 4th of July."

[Mya Stone]

Honestly his hand didn't look very decomposed. That was something I looked at, haha.

[RCharter]

16 minutes ago, Mya Stone said:

Honestly his hand didn't look very decomposed. That was something I looked at, haha.

The hand looked a little dainty to me, but it was still gross.

[Chairperson Meow]

Bianca was absolutely gorgeous in her back story.  I can't be the only one who noticed that.   They really um dress her down for her role.  

[JAYJAY1979]

I think its time for piper to exit....this season totallt proved that the show has run out ideas..with the whole panty story...getting involved with that white geoup..and then reuniting her and alex again.  The show could go in without Piper..imho

[PinkRibbons]

I started this season thinking, seriously, when are they letting Piper out already?! I was rather neutral on the character and can't say I liked her throughout the first part of the season, but after that branding...can't help but have sympathy for her. It wasn't so much the branding scene that did it (although I can't say that didn't strike me as special horror as a Jew), but the fact that she managed to keep it to herself for as long as she did. A few years ago an entire pot of boiling water fell on my bare foot and I spent several hours screaming unceasingly until we all remembered there was Tylenol in the house. Seriously, burns are a singular motherfucker of pain even when they aren't anywhere near as severe as that branding  And I appreciate that after that she mainly focused on taking care of others.

Anyway, they've never talked about Piper getting any added time and though I doubt she'd get out early for good behavior, they're hella overcrowded, not to mention that it's a racist system assessing these women. Even if she served every day of her sentence it's been four seasons. What was her original sentence, 18 months? We know it's been over a year because of Daya's pregnancy. I think at this point Piper would be far more useful (not to mention interesting) out in the free world and using her connections to launch a severe attack on MCC. She's got no plan for after she gets out (especially with the panty business gone) and after all the rights she's seen violated, I can so see her exploiting her status to speak out on behalf of prisoners' rights. It would be both self-serving (everyone listening to her and commending her on her bravery) and charitable (with actual results, possibly, unlike Caputo's constant trying to please everyone but screwing the inmates all the time), which would be perfect for her. 

 

4 hours ago, shantown said:

ETA: I think my favorite thing this season was the intersection of lives in the flashbacks - Freida and Donaldson being in a Bayley flashback, Bayley being in a Poussey flashback, etc.

I missed Bayley in Poussey's flashback!!! Where was he? On that topic, what on earth do you suppose Blanca did that got her minimum security? I like when the flashbacks infer at least a little more as to how the inmates ended up there. We didn't really find what happened to Maria Ruiz either, did we? I mean, it doesn't have to be overt scenes of everyone caught in the act, but like with Maritza or Miss Rosa you pretty much know what she's in for without having to be told. Then again there's always next season, we've had episode flashbacks with more than one girl before. But damn I would love to see Frieda back in her day...

One thing more...I think that of all the people that could have picked up the gun, Daya is the most likely to come out of it unscathed. The establishment on the whole are on very shaky ground here in the first place for allowing a weapon on the premises. And even if Maritza's story about how that shit-bitching ass-bastard guard forcing her to eat a live mouse isn't believed, there's always that fact that it's on record that Daya was raped by a guard. The entire prison insurrection is about the misconduct of the guards.  Daya of all the inmates stands a chance of this blowing over because MCC doesn't want to embarrass itself anymore.

[QQQQ]

I rewatched season 1 not too long ago. Finished season 4 today and was really struck by how lax prison rules have become (hanging out smoking crack in the cornfield, smoking cigs in the shower stall, PDA during visitation) and the easy access to would-be weapons (shovels, garden shears, various cleaning products, brooms, etc.). Maybe this is intentional - as a result of Litchfield going private. Or maybe it is to give more plot options.

[Arienne]

Did I miss it somewhere or is no one going to call out Emily from Haverty's Furniture being a new CO?

[RCharter]

12 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I started this season thinking, seriously, when are they letting Piper out already?! I was rather neutral on the character and can't say I liked her throughout the first part of the season, but after that branding...can't help but have sympathy for her. It wasn't so much the branding scene that did it (although I can't say that didn't strike me as special horror as a Jew), but the fact that she managed to keep it to herself for as long as she did. A few years ago an entire pot of boiling water fell on my bare foot and I spent several hours screaming unceasingly until we all remembered there was Tylenol in the house. Seriously, burns are a singular motherfucker of pain even when they aren't anywhere near as severe as that branding  And I appreciate that after that she mainly focused on taking care of others.

Anyway, they've never talked about Piper getting any added time and though I doubt she'd get out early for good behavior, they're hella overcrowded, not to mention that it's a racist system assessing these women. Even if she served every day of her sentence it's been four seasons. What was her original sentence, 18 months? We know it's been over a year because of Daya's pregnancy. I think at this point Piper would be far more useful (not to mention interesting) out in the free world and using her connections to launch a severe attack on MCC. She's got no plan for after she gets out (especially with the panty business gone) and after all the rights she's seen violated, I can so see her exploiting her status to speak out on behalf of prisoners' rights. It would be both self-serving (everyone listening to her and commending her on her bravery) and charitable (with actual results, possibly, unlike Caputo's constant trying to please everyone but screwing the inmates all the time), which would be perfect for her. 

 

I missed Bayley in Poussey's flashback!!! Where was he? On that topic, what on earth do you suppose Blanca did that got her minimum security? I like when the flashbacks infer at least a little more as to how the inmates ended up there. We didn't really find what happened to Maria Ruiz either, did we? I mean, it doesn't have to be overt scenes of everyone caught in the act, but like with Maritza or Miss Rosa you pretty much know what she's in for without having to be told. Then again there's always next season, we've had episode flashbacks with more than one girl before. But damn I would love to see Frieda back in her day...

One thing more...I think that of all the people that could have picked up the gun, Daya is the most likely to come out of it unscathed. The establishment on the whole are on very shaky ground here in the first place for allowing a weapon on the premises. And even if Maritza's story about how that shit-bitching ass-bastard guard forcing her to eat a live mouse isn't believed, there's always that fact that it's on record that Daya was raped by a guard. The entire prison insurrection is about the misconduct of the guards.  Daya of all the inmates stands a chance of this blowing over because MCC doesn't want to embarrass itself anymore.

I think they want any the prison overcrowded because they get the 30k per head from the government.  It was telling that Piscatella was so quick to add time to Maria's sentence for something that wasn't even drugs.

When Poussey was walking down the street Bayley was on the other side walking with his friends and talking about Brooklyn girls.

I wonder if Blanca wasn't accused of stealing from the old lady after she died.  Like writing herself checks or something like that.  The woman was clearly terrified of her at the end.  And I can't blame her...that look Blanca gave her when she was having sex....IN HER ROOM.....was blood chilling.

[stagmania]

On 6/18/2016 at 4:55 PM, RCharter said:

So..my question was....why couldn't Pescatella be the fall guy?  He is already an awful guy, and you just know he has a shitty past.  I guess he is an MCC hire so they may not want to bring up his past because it would make them liable.  But if they said that they didn't really know how far he would go?  But Pescatella is the damn worst, and I really hope they don't bring him back next season.  I can deal with the regular sort of asshole-y guards, I could even deal with Pornstache.....but I just can't with that guy.

I had the exact same thought. Caputo's decision didn't really make sense to me; I understand that he was finally rebelling against MCC, but he did it in the worst possible way and showed complete disrespect for Poussey and all the inmates he's been tepidly claiming to care about all season. He could have defended Bayley by pointing to Piscatella instead and avoided the riot, but it seems that Piscatella will be back to cause more trouble next year. Regardless, I found it to be quite telling of Caputo's true character: he finally decides to go to bat for someone, and instead of the women under his protection that he's been allowing to be mistreated, it's the white guy who was so careless and unqualified for his job that he killed a woman without even realizing he was doing it.

17 hours ago, QQQQ said:

I rewatched season 1 not too long ago. Finished season 4 today and was really struck by how lax prison rules have become (hanging out smoking crack in the cornfield, smoking cigs in the shower stall, PDA during visitation) and the easy access to would-be weapons (shovels, garden shears, various cleaning products, brooms, etc.). Maybe this is intentional - as a result of Litchfield going private. Or maybe it is to give more plot options.

I think this may be intentional in order to showcase how inept the new guards are at their job: they're too busy playing power games to take care of the real security of the prison. Even the "good" guards (a word I use very loosely) were not particularly competent, and mostly just tried to keep their heads down and look the other way to avoid engaging with all the terrible shit they knew was happening.

I thought this was a great season overall, and I was pretty happy with the quality of the writing. There were a lot of well-earned character beats and so many great lines, not to mention a sort of eerie prescience about the major stuff going on in America right now (extreme racial tension, explicit mentions of privilege, even an AR-15 joke that made me cringe). I was absolutely devastated by Poussey's death, but I can't say I didn't feel it (or something terrible, at least) coming. She was too happy, too content, too excited for the future. I've watched enough TV to know what happens when a character gets to a place that positive. I'm sure her presence and the fallout from her death will be felt through the rest of the series, and I thought they handled it very respectfully, and gave her a beautiful and fitting send off with those final flashbacks of her perfect NYC night.  

Edited June 19, 2016 by stagmania

[ElsbethTascioni]

I absolutely hated the Judy King storyline. There wasn't a single enjoyable thing about it, and the whole three-way with yoga Jones and Luschek was both idiotic and nauseating. What a waste of screen time. I'm glad Piper got less screen time, because there is nothing likeable about her. The guy who played Bayley did an awesone job. You could really see and feel all of the emotions he was going through. I still love Red, I still love Flaca. I also love what they did with Diaz's early release. I'm not sure how I feel about Healy. He's sad and pathetic, but he's also an asshole. I'm glad he took himself to get some help.

[Sakura12]

I get why they choose Poussey to be the one to die. She was the nice one, the one that no on had any issues with. Her death would affect all the fractured groups. They may all hate each other but no one hated her.

I liked the Alex and Lolly storyline. I liked that they are showing that some of those women are in there because of their mental illnesses. I liked that they had them realize they have an illness even Lorna admitting she was screwing up her relationship with Vinnie but couldn't help stop herself. 

The Judy King storyline was pointless and wasted screentime.

I can't believe all the new guards were power hungry, depraved assholes. Yeah, they are criminals and are probably not nice people but none of them deserve be treated the way they treated them. I hope they all attack Humps so they won't know which of them did it. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I'm quite certain we'll find out next season that the guards who were hired because they were vets were all dishonorably discharged. 

[Chaos Theory]

Wow was season 4 awful.    The show can write decent storylines for every character except Piper who has become nothing more then the worst stereotypes of white privildge.  There is no subtly to it.  They can write subtle stories with every other character but with Piper it has come down to "White people, m'right."

The rest of it was ok I guess.  I just couldn't get past the weird hatred the writers have for Piper.  It got offensive after awhile.  

Edited June 19, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[J.D.]

I'm slower than the rest of you, but I just finished watching as well. 

My random thoughts:

So sad about Poussey's death.  She was my 2nd favorite character next to Sophia.  :(

Speaking of Sophia, I was really disappointed she was rarely in this season, but I understand.  (I think).  I believe Laverne Cox is filming Rocky Horror Picture Show.   I'm hoping she'll be back full throttle next season.

I could do without Piper altogether.  I'm tired of her character.  I didn't care for her Godfather-esque 'Don of the stinky panties' cartel.  She just doesn't interest me.

Lorna gets on my nerves, but I love Crazy Eyes and Lolly even though they're just as whacked.

I'm totally confused about Healey.  Is he a good guy?  Is he a bad guy?  His character's so complex.  I know he had a horrible childhood, but he's hard to figure out as an adult.  Just when I think he has compassion for the prisoners (like taking Lolly under his wing) he does something that makes me change my mind, and makes me think he's another creep.

I feel sorry for Caputo.  He can't seem to get a lucky break. 

I don't know which CO I dislike the most: Piscatella or Humphrey.  Actually, none of the CO's are all that decent, except for that blond woman and poor Bayley.

I can't wait to see Piscatella, Humphrey and Caputo's slimy girlfriend get what's coming to them.   Funny, but you know you got a pretty corrupt staff when the rapists starts to look like a 'good guy.'

[ElsbethTascioni]

I'm not sure how I feel about Caputo. I'm disappointed that he's with Linda, who seems like the worst kind of person, totally guying into the MCC corporate hive mind. He makes small gestures to help the inmates, but then doesn't advocate for them over the big stuff, like those psycho guards headed by Piscatella.

[Dancingjaneway]

This season took a MUCH darker turn and while it was better than last season I also think the show needs to be super careful. Most people watching this show didn't go in expecting it to be like OZ or Wentworth. They can't continue to be this dark or aggressive because I think they will lose viewers. Jenji has WAY too much going on and it's hurting the show. I don't want to know the CO's backstories and I don't give a shit about Healy and his mom. We already knew that he has issues with women and the fact that he's working at a women's prison is sick. I've never really been a big Caputo fan. Anyone that sits in his office and wanks it to the inmates is a sick individual. Also he seems to be lead by his dick when it comes to making decisions. He's a wimp. All the CO's this season can die a horrible death(maybe minus the blond female guard). They let that one guard bring a gun in and did shit about it making them all fucking horrible. The Judy King storyline was terrible and did nothing for the show. It's like Jenji wanted it just to get people talking and gossiping. I hate when characters are brought in just to garner talk and ratings. I'm disappointed that we still haven't found out why Red is in prison. Obviously it's mob related but they haven't given us much to go on. Did she take the fall for her husband or did she kill all those men? I get what Jenji was going for with Poussey's death but it happened at such a horrible time. I wonder if she saw what was going on with gay/black tv characters and had the urge to re-shoot the scene. I'm done with Piper. She no long is a good character nor is she interesting. It's unfortunate that Jenji will never get rid of her. I'm hoping that we will see more of Lolly and that it won't be like with Nicki where once she went to max we didn't see her at all. It was good to have Nicki back but I'm disappointed that we are once again going down the drug road with her. I really hope she can get sober. The cliffhanger ending was stupid because Daya is not going to shoot the guard. She has a new baby and she just doesn't have that in her. Especially to do it point blank. By accident would be one thing.  I doubt that Morello is pregnant but if she is that is going to be seriously fucked up. All in all much better than season 3 but Jenji is heading towards Weeds territory(a great show she fucked up) and she needs to be VERY careful. 

[JessePinkman]

I was SO NOT prepared for what this season became. I mean, there were some dark turns in the earlier episodes (obviously a guy getting murdered and then cut up and buried and Piper's branding) but the last two episodes were utterly devastating. I don't know if it's because it's been a shitty week or what but I am having such a visceral reaction to this show. I feel so incredibly sad while equally hyped for next season. And for the first time I'm okay with the wait because I honestly don't think I could handle much more right now.

It's kind of hard to talk about the season as a whole at the moment, a lot happened throughout but so much happened in 12 and 13 that they may as well be their own mini-movie. 

One thing I will say, in the first 6 episodes I did not understand or care about Piper's story one iota. She's an idiot and the personification of white privilege. She didn't think going to the head CO and explicitly telling him to target the Latinas is racist? Like...you know what the fuck you're doing, Chapman.

Edited June 20, 2016 by JessePinkman

[WhosThatGirl]

It was such a dark season. And it does really affect me as well. Maybe because of everything that is happening, what episode 12 really was kind of topical. The thing is.. I'm sad. But I'm not angry and like I've been saying, I'm.. thoroughly impressed that this show killed Poussey off. I can't think of any character who would have made this much of an impact. Possibly Red? But even that's a toss up. I feel like Red is a neutral character, some really like her, and some are just like neutral on her.

Piper is the worst! Which is kind of sad. She was our protagonist, but now eh. I did feel bad for her during the branding scene but... I can't help but think it's expected of what she was doing to others. 

[hkit]

Had to let this soak in for a couple of days. When I first finished, I thought it was the best season ever. But after digesting, I agree with others who say it was dark. I think Poussey was the character whose death would have the maximum impact - both with other characters and the fans, so I understand what they did there. But there was too much dark shit throughout the season that I found uncomfortable to watch. Mostly the cutting up a body, the branding scene and the baby mouse. 

I hope this show finds its way again in season 5. I think there are ways you can have a compelling story about how awful prison is without wacky hijinks of cutting up and hiding body parts.

[SparedTurkey]

Quote

I'm totally confused about Healey.  Is he a good guy?  Is he a bad guy?  His character's so complex. 

He is a bad guy. He may not physically rape prisoners or make them eat baby mice....but his racism, sexism and homophobia doesn't make him better or nicer than Humphrey, Piscatella or anyone else and he should never have been in any position in a prison at all. Ever. He had a mentally ill mother but that does not excuse his actions at all. Ever. And Caputo - also never that nice or worthy of respect or appreciation. From the start he would throw women, inside or outside the bars, under the bus. He paid a lot of lip service to wanting to do the right thing after Poussey died - but didn't. Talk is cheap...

I hate the message this show sent re: Pennsatucky and Donuts. He raped her. That doesn't get wiped away. Ever. I'm with Big Boo. Penn doesn't have to suffer and nor should she. But she doesn't have to 'forgive' him for a bullshit apology and make him feel better when Poussey died. That's crap, no matter how you look at it.

Quote

Most people watching this show didn't go in expecting it to be like OZ or Wentworth.

This show wants to hit the big social justice moments, without paying attention to the smaller moments. Possibly steming from the book (never read it but I know the author is big on prison reformation). Federal prision to racism to private prision systems...and the characters change to fit that particular issue. Wentworth, isn't that kind of story. That was fully a character story from the start. The two are different.

That said, I would have liked this show to have treated Poussey's death as something more that shock value and a teaching moment.

I did however, like the focus on all the Latina women and Lolly. Nicki should have come back earlier.

And I never would have picked Daya as the one holding the gun at the end....especially how little she was in it the rest of the time.

[TaraS1]

Overall, I really enjoyed this season, even though it was definitely dark. But I was thankful for the returns of Sophia and Nicki and their eventual reconciliations with Gloria and Red, I liked the rise of Ruiz to a more prominent role, loved the stuff with Taystee as Caputo's secretary and, I must admit, I greatly enjoyed that idiot Piper getting branded and knocked down off that smug pedestal she keeps herself on.

Also, at least for the first half of the season, I have to give the MVP award to Lori Petty.  Normally, the very sight of her in any role annoys me, but I have to give credit where it's due.  I thought she was exceptional.  I'd love to see her get some Emmy recognition for this season.

The downsides for me?  I didn't get the point of the Judy King story - particularly when they threw in Yoga Jones, a character I've never had the slightest bit of interest in anyway (and my god, that makeout scene was disgusting).  And I've never remotely cared about Daya, so I was disappointed that she ended up with the gun in the finale.  I've always found that actress to be a major weak link in the cast, so I'm hoping they aren't foreshadowing a Daya-heavy S5.

[Anna Yolei]

On Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Mya Stone said:

I can sum this season up with this one thought: 

 

I can not believe I actually liked Piscatella at first. 

I can sum up with this: When Luchek come off as the sanest of Litchfield's guards, everyone's fucked. 

Piper continues to be the worst thing about the show for me, but unlike previous seasons where her entitlement went largely unchecked, didn't register in her head, or made everything about her, there were bits and pieces of a good, decent person here. 

I was shocked about Possey, but she wasn't a character I felt passionately about one way of the other about. I felt bad for Soso, who really came into her own this season and didn't remind me of Litchfield's equivalent to Scrappy Doo or Wesley Crusher.

Poor Caputo, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The ending with Daya mostly left me confused, and would've worked better for me had Flacca or her friend who ate the mouse gotten it. Unless this is gonna somehow tie into the last year with Bennett and Pornstash somehow.

Loved Nicky and Sophia returning and Gloria's obvious guilt to truly make things right. Piper, take notes.

Overall, a way better season than last.

[JessePinkman]

I've seen some complaints that they're "humanizing" Donuts, the rapist CO, but...that's kind of the driving force of the show. We're all human with complexities.

I think people are under the impression that when we learn more about a character that it's the show attempting to make us sympathize with them but there's a difference between trying to garner sympathy and explaining how someone gets to a state of mind. Unfortunately a lot of rapists think exactly as he does, most rapists don't think of themselves as rapists at all. It's the same with racists. No one wants to self-identify with horrifying titles.

And Pennsatucky gravitating toward him speaks more to her lack of self-worth and love than it does to making him sympathetic. Why is she so ready to start something with the man that raped her? What does that say about her?

Right now I'm listening to this as catharsis to the season finale.

 

[Anna Yolei]

8 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

 

Piper is the worst! Which is kind of sad. She was our protagonist, but now eh. I did feel bad for her during the branding scene but... I can't help but think it's expected of what she was doing to others. 

The show's decision to place the focus on other characters was to its great benefit. At best, I just find Piper to be boring, even more so since there's nothing of her outside life to milk a story from: no parents, best friend and fiance bonking one another, and now even her loser brother has a business and baby on the way. Yawn.

There are so many, many, many, many TV shows with awful protagonists that never get anywhere close to what they deserve. I'm glad the writers pay attention and write accordingly.

[Anna Yolei]

11 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

I've seen some complaints that they're "humanizing" Donuts, the rapist CO, but...that's kind of the driving force of the show. We're all human with complexities.

I think people are under the impression that when we learn more about a character that it's the show attempting to make us sympathize with them but there's a difference between trying to garner sympathy and explaining how someone gets to a state of mind. Unfortunately a lot of rapists think exactly as he does, most rapists don't think of themselves as rapists at all. It's the same with racists. No one wants to self-identify with horrifying titles.

And Pennsatucky gravitating toward him speaks more to her lack of self-worth and love than it does to making him sympathetic. Why is she so ready to start something with the man that raped her? What does that say about her?

Right now I'm listening to this as catharsis to the season finale.

 

 

I didn't want to go into depth on that subject t this early in the morning, but that's basically my feelings exactly. Tucky's never had anything in the way of self esteem and as we've all learned from Brock Turner , many rapists don't see themselves as such. The last scene suggests Donuts beginning to get it,and certainly I don't think the writers are foolish enough to sell THAT romance. Luke and Laura they arent.

[Aja]

I binged, so the episodes are all a bit jumbled in my head. The final two were so devastating that it overshadowed a lot of brilliant, touching, funny moments. I cried when Doggett went to make up with Boo and made her speech about pain vs. suffering. Taryn Manning is an astounding actor. The way I read her behavior toward Coates was that she so wanted to believe that he was just a nice guy who made an error in judgement (that was, after all, motivated by how much he loved her.) He was good in other ways, and he didn't appear to be assaulting Ramos like she was afraid he would. But when he forced her up against the wall and told her it was taking everything he had not to throw her down and rape her again, she had (what I interpreted as) a look of horror and realization on her face. 

Another moment I loved was when Sister Ingalls decked Gloria in the cafeteria in order to get sent to SHU, and Gloria played along. "She nearly broke my jaw!"

"And I'd do it again....LATINO!"

"Oh HAYULL no!"

I had to rewind that twice because I was laughing so hard. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Aja

[Cherpumple]

This season’s tagline: “I don’t think racism should be a group activity.” (Lorna Morello-Muccio)

Sorry for the very long post, but there is a fun video clip at the end.

- I liked the idea of the influx of new inmates, and thought they did a great job of conveying an atmosphere of chaos and claustrophobia. However, it also resulted in spreading the screentime too thin across too many people with the result of things feeling disjointed and unsatisfying in terms of not getting enough time with the characters that we’ve known and loved for three seasons.

- I liked the exploration of new/different relationships this season (Alex/Lolly, Poussey/Soso, Taystee/Caputo, etc.) but this sometimes came at the expense of existing relationships that I really missed. Most notably, was the Taystee/Poussey friendship. They were my favourite pairing by far, with so much fun and warmth between them, and they barely spoke two words to each other all season, which made Poussey’s death all the more sad for me.

- I really missed the old guards, especially O’Neill and Bell (the Brangelina of Litchfield) and Admiral Rodcocker. I didn’t appreciate them enough when they were here, but I really felt their absence. I didn’t mind an influx of new guards, but it was too jarring to have almost a 100% turn-over from previous seasons. I have a slight glimmer of hope that they will be re-hired if it comes out how terrible the new dudes are, but I probably shouldn’t get my hopes too high.

- Speaking of the guards, what a bunch of sick motherfuckers. Making a girl eat a live mouse? Being proud of the fact that he was able to “get over” raping and murdering a girl during military service? Daily acts of psychological and physical cruelty/torture? They make Pornstache look like a harmless kitten. And what a strange sick world this is when the guard who raped a prisoner is the voice of compassion and reason?

 

Individual characters/stories:

- I don’t know why, but I’ve always had a soft spot for Caputo. Despite all his bad decisions (and terrible taste in women) I feel that he still has his humanity and a sincere desire to make Litchfield a safe and productive environment. I still yelled at him through my TV several times during the last episode, but I’m not giving up on him yet.

- Piper is ridiculous. Her “gangstA” persona was completely tone-deaf and she still has a tendency to make everything about her. She blamed herself for starting the white power group, but it’s obvious that they would have found each other on their own- they weren’t exactly hiding their opinions. And rather than focusing on what Alex must be feeling/thinking about Aydin, she kept turning the focus back on how much she failed Alex and should have been there for her. It’s not about you!

- I knew Daya wasn’t the brightest bulb in Litchfield, but I had to laugh at the fact that it only took a few days after her terrible mother was released before she started hanging out with a group of drug smugglers and pulled a gun on a CO. Damn, girl. Pace yourself!

- The Judy King story fell flat for me, mostly because she was so isolated from the other characters. She was funny, and I get the points they were making about her celebrity status, but most of the time her scenes felt like I was watching a different show. Disappointing.

- I know the Pennsatucky, Coates, Boo situation is controversial, but I think it was an interesting development. I’m glad that Tucky actually confronted him with what he did and that he seemed to genuinely re-evaluate his actions, but for me this story was mainly about Tucky, not any redemption arc he may or may not have. She knew she would have to face him regularly and had decided not to tell anyone or press charges, so after careful consideration she decided that the only way to move on from her anger and fear was to forgive him. It wasn’t for him, it was for her and her own mental health, and I would never criticise a rape victim for choosing that path. I still think Coates is a dangerous piece of crap, and that last scene between them was strange, but I’m actually pretty upset with Boo in all this. It’s one thing to disagree with Tucky's choice to forgive, but I hated the way she ditched her as a friend just because she did something that Boo didn’t like. And again, it’s not like Tucky was excusing his behaviour or letting him off the hook like she did when Boo first found out; she made it very clear that her forgiveness was a way of moving past the anger and fear that had been paralysing her, so it really bothered me that Boo, who had been so supportive and protective up until that point, would just up and desert her friend like that.

 

As much as I despise CO Humphreys or “Humps” I honestly can’t take him seriously as a villain, because for me he will always be Gaylord Felcher, the NBC censor on “30 Rock”:

[Francie]

This season can be summed up by this exchange (going by memory:)

Suzanne: With great responsibility comes great power.

Tastee: I think you mean the other way around.

Suzanne: No. Think about it.

And Suzanne is so damn right. The power that this new crew of guards yielded and abused makes us long for the days of the raping and murdering (I hold him responsible for Trisha/Tricia -- her name spelled wrong on a tombstone) Pornstache. Even the inadventertent, accidental way in which Bailey acted had consequences that ruined lives. Even his own, as he'll never be the same again.

The mouse scene still bothers me. It crossed the line from being entertainment. But I suppose that's what made it so effective. Manipulative, but effective. It's truly one of those "I wish I had never witnessed that" moments for me. I'm not a Saw or modern horror flick kinda person.

I am still gobsmacked by Poussey's death. It's going to be hard to revisit the Mackenzie/Amanda exchanges again and her singing Amazing Grace at the Christmas pageant.  Her being the lone, brave one to stand up to Vee.  And her "I didn't do anything. We all got lost on the way to church" from Season 1. The juxtaposition of white young man Bailey's treatment by the police and young black woman Poussey's for the very same infractions was brilliant social commentary.  I'm grateful the show ended it with a magical night for her, and her bright, happy, breaking the fourth wall smile. It gave me something at least. It was almost like she was telling the audience, "don't worry about me, I'm fine."

Love Frieda to death. "It was a crazy year." I kind of hope we never re-visit it via flashback because it's nearly an insurmountable task to write something that would play out better than our imaginations.

The actress who played young Lolly was a phenomenal match. I honestly wonder if they didn't dub Lori Perry's voice -- it was so dead on.

The way I think it'll play out, Season 4 is the first half of a two season arc with Season 5. Season 5 will bring Poussey's father, the general (I think that's partly why Poussey's character was chosen for the high stakes death).  The sadist guards are all military. It'll be interesting to see how that detail plays out. And where McCullough fits in. She'll have a crisis of conscience or two next season. 

Red and Puscatelli will continue their stand off. Right now, he has the upper hand. If anything, one of the downsides of this season was the limited use of Kate Mulgrew. Hope to see her more in action mode next season. And let's not forget that Chang is mother-f-in cut throat. I hope she gets a moment to shine as well.

And don't forget that Poussey has Judy King's direct office phone number on her.  Suzanne took Poussey's books, so her number might be in her and Tastee's cell. So, it'll be interesting to see who winds up with that phone number. Tastee has access to a telephone. I have a hope that we'll see Judy's flashback episode next season, once she's released, and Tastee will implore her to set the record straight about what happened, whether it be about Poussey's death, the riot, or Poussey's character in general.

I'm scared to think of how the riot will end. Linda and her gun is the wild card. Gloria will try to step in and protect Daya. As we've seen with Poussey, all bets are off and anything can happen to anyone.

In fact, this season was masterful in its set up. Coats and Bailey's observation early on that they were out-numbered and that they'd be in trouble if ever the inmates decided to rise up.  Linda and her gun, and the fact that Crystal knows about that gun. Tastee has access to a telephone and Kaputo's computer password, and what gets communicated to and from the outside world will play a big role next season. Kaputo's "don't believe what you'll hear" admonition to the press.   Even the fact that the show got the three "crazy" characters, and Healy, out of the way for the riot and the aftermath.

It was a hard season to watch, and a little plodding at the beginning, but it was excellent in laying the foundation for next season. I can only hope for same level of satisfaction next season that I got with Rosa and Vee. After the wringer I've been put through this season, I'm really going to need it.

[Aja]

4 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

The actress who played young Lolly was a phenomenal match. I honestly wonder if they didn't dub Lori Perry's voice -- it was so dead on.

I think that was Lori Petty. She looks a lot different with hair and makeup.

[Francie]

11 minutes ago, Aja said:

I think that was Lori Petty. She looks a lot different with hair and makeup.

Damn, they did well. Usually when make up artists try to make a 50+ something person look like they're in their 20s or 30s, they fail miserably. Witness their version of the 80s Judy King. Even with the convenient hair style and glasses, I didn't see how Lolly wasn't actually a younger person. Kudos, make up artists! And Petty!

[kathe5133]

13 minutes ago, Aja said:

I think that was Lori Petty. She looks a lot different with hair and makeup.

No.  It definitely wasn't her in the earlier flashback scenes.  Lori Petty has capped front teeth, the younger version did not.  (I notice teeth....)  But I am positive it was her voice.  It's not unusual for actresses to dub their voices, especially when they are so distinctive.  I'm remembering "League of their Own" (Lori Petty!)   I had read that Gina Davis's voice was dubbed in the very beginning and end when her character was played by an older actress.  

[Aja]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

Damn, they did well. Usually when make up artists try to make a 50+ something person look like they're in their 20s or 30s, they fail miserably. Witness their version of the 80s Judy King. Even with the convenient hair style and glasses, I didn't see how Lolly wasn't actually a younger person. Kudos, make up artists! And Petty!

I know! I was stunned at how different she looked too. Lori Petty is definitely a physical chameleon. She looks completely different in everything I've seen her in. ETA: While my original statement may still be true, in this case it ain't. Wasn't Lori Petty. :)

Edited June 20, 2016 by Aja

[TaraS1]

It wasn't LP in the earlier flashbacks, but I kind of wondered why it wasn't, since they did use the Ruiz actress in her flashbacks, even though she looked too old to be playing a schoolgirl IMO.

[Aja]

Oh my goodness, I was wrong, you guys were right. I just went back and checked, I was so sure that was Lori Petty. That WAS some ninja casting.

[Cherpumple]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Love Frieda to death. "It was a crazy year." I kind of hope we never re-visit it via flashback because it's nearly an insurmountable task to write something that would play out better than our imaginations.

The way I think it'll play out, Season 4 is the first half of a two season arc with Season 5. Season 5 will bring Poussey's father, the general (I think that's partly why Poussey's character was chosen for the high stakes death).  The sadist guards are all military. It'll be interesting to see how that detail plays out. And where McCullough fits in. She'll have a crisis of conscience or two next season. 

And don't forget that Poussey has Judy King's direct office phone number on her.  Suzanne took Poussey's books, so her number might be in her and Tastee's cell. So, it'll be interesting to see who winds up with that phone number. Tastee has access to a telephone. I have a hope that we'll see Judy's flashback episode next season, once she's released, and Tastee will implore her to set the record straight about what happened, whether it be about Poussey's death, the riot, or Poussey's character in general.

In fact, this season was masterful in its set up. Coats and Bailey's observation early on that they were out-numbered and that they'd be in trouble if ever the inmates decided to rise up.  Linda and her gun, and the fact that Crystal knows about that gun. Tastee has access to a telephone and Kaputo's computer password, and what gets communicated to and from the outside world will play a big role next season. Kaputo's "don't believe what you'll hear" admonition to the press.   Even the fact that the show got the three "crazy" characters, and Healy, out of the way for the riot and the aftermath.

Yes to all these parts of your post! The other three seasons seemed self-contained in a way, but now I definitely think this is more like part one of a longer arc. And all those things you mentioned regarding Poussey's father, Taystee's access to communication channels outside the prison, and the unauthorized guns in the prison will likely all play a role next year.

I also agree about not wanting to see Frieda's backstory. Right now she's the cranky spunky grandma with a murderous past, a bright spot of black humor in some of the darker stories, and you never quite know how serious she's being when she talks about the things she's done. I don't think I could feel the same way about her after seeing her kill multiple people, seemingly without a drop of remorse. I'd rather just get a good look at that octopus tattoo.

Speaking of backstories, I feel like they are being used differently now. Rather than showing us when/why each woman got arrested and ended up in Litchfield, they are used more and more to just fill in parts of their experiences and personalities. It definitely gives them more material to explore, but the nosy part of me still wants to know what everyone's in for! I don't mind them expanding these stories to the guards, but don't need to see too many. I thought the backstories of Caputo, Healy, and Bailey have been helpful, but I don't care enough about the other guards to explore their home lives. There are way too many other characters to focus on.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Cherpumple