S06.E08: No One

[Raachel2008]

21 minutes ago, J----av said:

And i am going to be extremely pissed if Jon somehow wins without help, despite being severely outnumbered and going against a guy who has shown to be much smarter then he is 

I'm sorry, but in the books Jon is a fair good strategist and this is one of the reasons he is loved by other crows. I'm sure Littlefinger will show up with his army, and I don't mind his help, it is the notion that Littlefinger saves the day, which is different than Jon and Sansa winning without help.

[Avaleigh]

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But this 110% true to who Brienne is. Jamie gave her the Oathkeeper to save Sansa, she found Sansa, she returns the sword. In a show where characterization sucks often, this time D&D got it right, because there is no way she wouldn't return the Oathkeeper given the chance. She lives by her code of honor and her actions fit. Also, it made for a lovely scene between Brienne and Jamie, and he saying the Oathkeeper was hers (because she keeps her oaths).

This episode was by far one of the worst in all the six seasons. There aren't enough words to express the ridiculousness of Arya being brutally stabbed several times (and in one of them the Waif TWISTED THE KNIFE), but being able to run up and down Braavos, slid on her stomach down stairs (hello, Legolas, skating over a shield on LOTR), all just after  few hours (days?). Nowdays it would be almost a miracle if someone attacked like that managed to be taken in a hospital still breathing nevermind surviving. This is what really pisses me off this season: there is a lot of stuff that is not needed being shoved down our throatsd for shock value. I don't mind a good twist, but can we still be somewhere within the realm of believable? How come the Waif didn't kill Arya when she was passed out? She killed Lady Crane but no Arya? What did she want, a real chase? Arya's stay in Bravos was pointless, she didn't learn new skills like in the book, and if the whole point was to show Arya feeling lost or needing to find who she is, what a fucking waste of time. Also, Lady Crane was there for...? Very few things have been so poorly conceived in the show like Arya's trip to Braavos. It is not like they didn't have some guidelines, because Arya's trainning was in the books. Countless movies/series have done a mashup of learning/trainning scenes that didn't take an entire scene yet showed the character moving forwards, but I guess that was too hard for D&D.

By the way, Jacqen can fuck himself. Waif, the little Terminator that she was, worshipped the man, yet he didn't bat an eye at seeing her eyeless face. I'm not sure if GGRM or D&D think there is something appealing about a shady character who exploits teenagers girls, but he was never a mentor, or a friend, and if he was supposed to be some know-it-all dude whose job was to put Arya back in the road to Winterfell, sorry, it didn't work.

The Edmure and Jamie scene was  by far the highest point of the episode, that scene was all kinds of awesome, the acting, the directing (which was shit in the rest of the episode). Jamie is the kind of character that you can almost love, because he is nice to Brienne, because he was marginally better to Tyrion, because he killed the Mad King to save King's landing,  and then you remember that he pushed a small child from a tower and sure Edmond had all the reasons to believe his son was going to be killed. Still, there is no way Edmure cannot see that Riverrun would still be the Frey's, his speech was a nice one, but the Lannisters still rule, have a huge army, the Tully are weakened and the Starks are 'gone'. What exactly was he thinking? Ugh.

So the Blackfish decides to not help Sansa (really, Brienne, would it hurt so much to acknowledge Jon?), because being killed by the Lannister's troops is more honorable? Stupidity reaaaaally runs among the Tullys. Now we didn't see he dying, so it is a matter of screentime, money or all those dead people we didn't see dying, like Stannis, will come back somehow?

The Hound is not going to replace Lady Stoneheart, who hopefully will never appear on this show. My guess is that he will help Arya with the Frey's somehow, and then will die.

I'm going to be extremelly pissed if next week Littlefinger shows up and is the one who saves the day.

This is exactly why I don't care that the Blackfish died. He turned his back on his family in favor of hanging onto Riverrun for a little while longer. He would have been an asset in the larger fight, not just against the Boltons but the White Walkers too, and he decides that it's better to end his life taking down a few of nameless Lannister soldiers. He fought for Riverrun and did what he could to hold onto it so IMO his honor should have been satisfied on that score. He could have gone to help protect his niece but chose instead to die for a cause he knew was lost. We already knew he was dead when he made the choice to stay so what's the point in watching him get butchered by the Lannisters?

Not only was I irritated with the Blackfish's choice but here again we have Sansa's assumptions about people's loyalty being shown to be incorrect.

This isn't counting the Blackfish treating Edmure, from their very first scene together, like he's a pathetic, distant, bastard relation that he's forced interact with because of blood ties. I can understand Edmure being hopeful that he can maybe salvage some reasonably decent fraction of a life with his wife and son. I can't help but think that the night with his wife (before everything went to hell) was something he thought about a lot during his imprisonment because it was his last happy memory. Add into that being ground down for a couple of years, is it any wonder that he's tired, burnt out, and thinks this is the best he can hope for?

[iMonrey]

Doesn't the House of Black and White have that little pool with magical healing water? Maybe Arya drank from that after killing the waif and sneaking back in?

They sure seemed to be implying something sinister, or at least important, when Lady Crane got on that step ladder and pulled down some little bottle of something-or-other. I was expecting her to turn out to be the waif based on how suspicious she was acting. For that to turn out to be nothing is shockingly bad directing.

[Funzlerks]

I don't think it was a bluff in the books.  The entire conversation and Jaime's POV spells it out quite clearly - you don't make threats if you won't follow through with them.  He is oh-so-sad at the idea of trebuchet-ing babies off of walls but he is internally sad because he knows he will have to do it.  It is not a bluff in the true sense of the word - he just hopes he doesn't have to actually do it.

TV Jaime is a great improvement over book Jaime.  For one, book Jaime is the world's biggest whiner and his reasons for leaving Cersei are laughably superficial.  It isn't for seeing her as corrupted morally, it is that she was corrupted sexually.  He spends chapters whining bout Kettlebecks and Lancel and his so-called redemption just seemed like a continuation of the ambivalence towards life and moral apathy Jaime has had since the beginning.

And he did the literal least he could do to honor his oath to Catelyn and he is supposed to be on some redemptive journey?  Until he's trucking it up North to watch Sansa's back, every scene I hope someone just ganks him. Like during the parlay with Blackfish or even Brienne's meeting.  Maybe someone can just roll up unannounced, stab Jaime in the belly, and leave never to be heard from again.

 

ETA- I thought Arya had no name because the Many Faced God demanded it but she got out of it by killing the assassin.  And does Jaqan Hagar have to do everything at the temple now?   He should really place a Help Wanted ad in Bravos's Indeed.  That place looks like it would take forever to mop and he has all those assassinations to do.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Funzlerks

[J----av]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm sorry, but in the books Jon is a fair good strategist and this is one of the reasons he is loved by other crows. I'm sure Littlefinger will show up with his army, and I don't mind his help, it is the notion that Littlefinger saves the day, which is different than Jon and Sansa winning without help.

This isn't the books. But in the books and the show Ramsay is shown to be probably smarter then Jon, especially in the show. No one would like to admit it because everyone hates Ramsay and loves Jon, but its true. And someone needs to save the day don't they? Ramsay has WAY more men, better trained men and a field advantage. Jon even holding his own would be ridiculous. Jon may be smart (well in the books, he is kinda an idiot in the show) but even Stannis or Tywin would get their asses kicked in the same situation

[J----av]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Doesn't the House of Black and White have that little pool with magical healing water? Maybe Arya drank from that after killing the waif and sneaking back in?

They sure seemed to be implying something sinister, or at least important, when Lady Crane got on that step ladder and pulled down some little bottle of something-or-other. I was expecting her to turn out to be the waif based on how suspicious she was acting. For that to turn out to be nothing is shockingly bad directing.

 Wasn't that just more Milk Of The Poppy?

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

This is exactly why I don't care that the Blackfish died. He turned his back on his family in favor of hanging onto Riverrun for a little while longer. He would have been an asset in the larger fight, not just against the Boltons but the White Walkers too, and he decides that it's better to end his life taking down a few of nameless Lannister soldiers. He fought for Riverrun and did what he could to hold onto it so IMO his honor should have been satisfied on that score. He could have gone to help protect his niece but chose instead to die for a cause he knew was lost. We already knew he was dead when he made the choice to stay so what's the point in watching him get butchered by the Lannisters?

Not only was I irritated with the Blackfish's choice but here again we have Sansa's assumptions about people's loyalty being shown to be incorrect.

This isn't counting the Blackfish treating Edmure, from their very first scene together, like he's a pathetic, distant, bastard relation that he's forced interact with because of blood ties. I can understand Edmure being hopeful that he can maybe salvage some reasonably decent fraction of a life with his wife and son. I can't help but think that the night with his wife (before everything went to hell) was something he thought about a lot during his imprisonment because it was his last happy memory. Add into that being ground down for a couple of years, is it any wonder that he's tired, burnt out, and thinks this is the best he can hope for?

I think the point is to show he is dead, period.

The problem with Sansa's assumptions about people's loyalty is that she doesn't take in account everything that has happened in the North and with the North in the past few years, thus why she looks either naif or not prepared for a 'no, not joining you'. Yet it is a shit move from D&D to have everybody who should be loyal just say 'no' over and over and over. There is no balance, because the writers reaaaally want Sansa and Jon to be the underdogs.

1 minute ago, J----av said:

This isn't the books. But in the books and the show Ramsay is shown to be probably smarter then Jon, especially in the show. No one would like to admit it because everyone hates Ramsay and loves Jon, but its true. And someone needs to save the day don't they? Ramsay has WAY more men, better trained men and a field advantage. Jon even holding his own would be ridiculous. Jon may be smart (well in the books, he is kinda an idiot in the show) but even Stannis or Tywin would get their asses kicked in the same situation

I don't think Jon even holding his own would be ridiculous, of course, for some time. And sorry, Tywin would never never get his ass kicked by Ramsay in the same situation.

[CofCinci]

6 minutes ago, J----av said:

 Wasn't that just more Milk Of The Poppy?

Yeah, she wanted to get high -- not poison Arya. 

[Haleth]

40 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Then again I feel like the only one who is ok with them not including Stoneheart.

I don't mind Stoneheart in the books, but also have come around to not caring so much that she isn't in the show.  I do like Beric better anyway.  I think Arya will be her mother's stand in next season.

[J----av]

5 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think the point is to show he is dead, period.

The problem with Sansa's assumptions about people's loyalty is that she doesn't take in account everything that has happened in the North and with the North in the past few years, thus why she looks either naif or not prepared for a 'no, not joining you'. Yet it is a shit move from D&D to have everybody who should be loyal just say 'no' over and over and over. There is no balance, because the writers reaaaally want Sansa and Jon to be the underdogs.

I don't think Jon even holding his own would be ridiculous, of course, for some time. And sorry, Tywin would never never get his ass kicked by Ramsay in the same situation.

Your hate for Ramsay is showing. Tywin isn't overcoming a, what is it 4 to 1, disadvantage with a field disadvantage also. Especially with a group of untrained Wildlings with shitty armor making up most of the army. If Jon holds his own before LF gets there its unrealistic. People complain about "Super Ramsay", but everyone seems to want "Super Jon"

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

16 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Who told Berric and Thorus about WW?

All the Lord of Light and Red Women crowd seem have an understanding of the White Walker threat.  (Melisandre and the Red Woman of Mereen.)  And certainly Berric and Thorus had direct dealings with Melisandre.  

[Unknown poster]

7 minutes ago, J----av said:

Your hate for Ramsay is showing. Tywin isn't overcoming a, what is it 4 to 1, disadvantage with a field disadvantage also. Especially with a group of untrained Wildlings with shitty armor making up most of the army. If Jon holds his own before LF gets there its unrealistic. People complain about "Super Ramsay", but everyone seems to want "Super Jon"

Gotta say I agree. Jon has less men then Stannis did by the time he reached Winterfell, and Ramsey has considerably more. I do question the logic of abandoning a fortress as formidable as Winterfell to face an enemy in the open, but the Boltons have such a huge numbers edge I guess I can see the logic.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

All the Lord of Light and Red Women crowd seem have an understanding of the White Walker threat.  (Melisandre and the Red Woman of Mereen.)  And certainly Berric and Thorus had direct dealings with Melisandre.  

I'm aware, they really didn't show that in show, I'm sure Mel and Thorus spoke, but he didn't seem all that adapt at reading fire or did he even do so.

This is a spot they sort of short changed, at least for non readers.

[Tikichick]

Just now, Unknown poster said:

Gotta say I agree. Jon has less men then Stannis did by the time he reached Winterfell, and Ramsey has considerably more. I do question the logic of abandoning a fortress as formidable as Winterfell to face an enemy in the open, but the Boltons have such a huge numbers edge I guess I can see the logic.

Didn't Ramsey just send out a small group of his best men to do a stealth attack on Stannis' large forces?  Shouldn't calling out all of his troops against the Starks' much smaller forces be a slam dunk?

[ElizaD]

18 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think Jon even holding his own would be ridiculous, of course, for some time. And sorry, Tywin would never never get his ass kicked by Ramsay in the same situation.

Tywin was never a good commander: he got beaten by Edmure, of all the indignities, and his two victories, the Sack and the Red Wedding, were betrayals of unarmed soldiers/ordinary citizens by supposed allies and not confrontations between two armies. Tywin was no Stannis, Robert, Blackfish or Tarly, all men who proved themselves in battle as generals or warriors: he was a man born to be the rich lord of a big army, not someone who was was actually good at any aspect of war except the behind the scenes scheming. As ridiculous as it is that a psychotic bastard with a certain low cunning has been turned into a badass shirtless warrior and ninja strategist, Show Ramsay, as portrayed, would have an excellent chance of defeating an outnumbered Tywin who doesn't even have Jon's advantages of familiarity with the terrain and actual talent for combat/military leadership. If Tywin was in Jon's current situation (outside Winterfell with a small army) he'd be even more likely than Jon to be doomed, but he'd certainly prefer not to fight Ramsay and just bribe someone to murder him by promising Winterfell as a reward, the way he got Roose to kill Robb when he couldn't defeat him in battle.

[benteen]

Quote

I always say that out of all the characters that have been killed, losing Tywin hurt the show the most. And as much as no one wants to admit it, losing Joffrey was probably the second biggest loss

Not just the show but losing Tywin in the BOOKS has also hurt a great deal.  He was the mastermind behind the Lannister, seeing his fall in the war would have been the most satisfying.  Tyrion killing Tywin WAS satisfying but it left a void that that the show and books have struggled to overcome.  The War of the Five Kings became a lot less interesting, Dany returning to Westeros to "claim what is hers" become a lot less interesting and we'll never get to see Tywin's reaction when he realizes the White Walkers are real.

I'm not missing Lady Stoneheart either.  After the surprise of her return, the character hasn't been interesting at all.  Mind you, Brienne and it looks like Jaime confronting her might be interesting but Lady Stoneheart herself isn't interesting.

1 minute ago, ElizaD said:

Tywin was never a good commander: he got beaten by Edmure, of all the indignities, and his two victories, the Sack and the Red Wedding, were betrayals of unarmed soldiers/ordinary citizens by supposed allies and not confrontations between two armies. Tywin was no Stannis, Robert, Blackfish or Tarly, all men who proved themselves in battle as generals or warriors: he was a man born to be the rich lord of a big army, not someone who was was actually good at any aspect of war except the behind the scenes scheming. As ridiculous as it is that a psychotic bastard with a certain low cunning has been turned into a badass shirtless warrior and ninja strategist, Show Ramsay, as portrayed, would have an excellent chance of defeating an outnumbered Tywin who doesn't even have Jon's advantages of familiarity with the terrain and actual talent for combat/military leadership. If Tywin was in Jon's current situation (outside Winterfell with a small army) he'd be even more likely than Jon to be doomed, but he'd certainly prefer not to fight Ramsay and just bribe someone to murder him by promising Winterfell as a reward, the way he got Roose to kill Robb when he couldn't defeat him in battle.

Excellent point.  Tywin wasn't a good commander, he just often had superior numbers.  Edmure handed him is ass on the battlefield.  Tywin's most effective work was done as Hand, as a political schemer. 

Tywin is a powerful bully but when those odds start to even up or he faces a tougher opponent, he's exposed.

[Unknown poster]

12 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Didn't Ramsey just send out a small group of his best men to do a stealth attack on Stannis' large forces?  Shouldn't calling out all of his troops against the Starks' much smaller forces be a slam dunk?

Yes, I agree. I was agreeing with the notion that Jon's forces doing much of anything against Ramsey's army is fairly far fetched. He's going to get bailed out by the Vale, it's his only chance.

[Cosmosgravitation]

Quote

Didn't Ramsey just send out a small group of his best men to do a stealth attack on Stannis' large forces?  

He took twenty people and burned Stannis's supplies, causing a large percentage of Stannis's army - including all the sellswords - to desert.  It was total bullshit, of course, since there's no way an experienced commander like Stannis would have his supplies so vulnerable that twenty people could get at them, North or no North.

In the preview Jon says battles have been won against worse odds, and he's right, both in the real world and in Planetos history.  One advantage he does have is a giant, who even alone could probably have the impact of an elephant charge if used correctly.  To bad they don't have time to build him some plate mail, that'd make him borderline invincible.  Still, it would be odd for Jon to defeat Ramsay while so badly outnumbered after they've spent two seasons building up show Ramsay, especially since show Jon seems to lack book Jon's intelligence.  I expect Manderly and Littlefinger to show up and even the odds, and maybe some of the northerners will switch from Ramsay's side to Jon's in the middle of the battle.

Book Jon has a lot of advantages over show Jon: he's much smarter, more politically astute, and he's also a skinchanger while show Jon (like show Arya) doesn't seem to be, but they have empathized Jon's skills as a warrior more then his book counterpart.  So I'm betting Jon's highlight will be defeating Ramsay 1v1.  

[Tikichick]

Just now, Cosmosgravitation said:

He took twenty people and burned Stannis's supplies, causing a large percentage of Stannis's army - including all the sellswords - to desert.  It was total bullshit, of course, since there's no way an experienced commander like Stannis would have his supplies so vulnerable that twenty people could get at them, North or no North.

In the preview Jon says battles have been won against worse odds, and he's right, both in the real world and in Planetos history.  One advantage he does have is a giant, who even alone could probably have the impact of an elephant charge if used correctly.  To bad they don't have time to build him some plate mail, that'd make him borderline invincible.  Still, it would be odd for Jon to defeat Ramsay while so badly outnumbered after they've spent two seasons building up show Ramsay, especially since show Jon seems to lack book Jon's intelligence.  I expect Manderly and Littlefinger to show up and even the odds, and maybe some of the northerners will switch from Ramsay's side to Jon's in the middle of the battle.

Book Jon has a lot of advantages over show Jon: he's much smarter, more politically astute, and he's also a skinchanger while show Jon (like show Arya) doesn't seem to be, but they have empathized Jon's skills as a warrior more then his book counterpart.  So I'm betting Jon's highlight will be defeating Ramsay 1v1.  

I've been wondering if we will see the North have a flash of remembrance during the battle.

I'm not sure yet who will end Ramsay, but I've thought from start of the season that it would be in the last couple episodes of the season when he would meet his doom. 

[stillshimpy]

This is exactly why I don't care that the Blackfish died. He turned his back on his family in favor of hanging onto Riverrun for a little while longer.

This bothered me so much.  He's dug in like a tick at Riverrun, for the sake of holding onto it in the name of family honor, despite having no heirs and knowing he will die doing so (even if it is years in the offing).  The Blackfish knows he is Sansa sole-surviving adult relative and his excuse for not supporting her is, "I haven't seen Sansa since she was a child, how do I even know that letter is from Sansa?"  then he reads it, knows it's from Sansa and still chooses to stay with Rivverun?  

What the fuck ever, dude.  Glad you died fighting, but there are reasons to question whether or not that could be considered a noble death. 

It's like everyone involved only got half the memo on loyalty to family and honor.    The Blackfish manages to abide by the concept of honoring his ancestral home, but to the detriment of his actual family.  Edmure cares enough about a child he's never met to know that he owes that baby something on the obligations due via blood ties.  

I couldn't even work up a sniffle for his death, because he chose that over supporting his family.  Ask for the release of Edmure into his custody and go fight with your niece!  Jebus.  

[piequinn35]

What's with the show's killing people offscreen? I was looking forward for Arya-Waif showdown. :(

Dany had few seconds screen time, was that a record?

And who would have thought that Tobias had scenes with 2 Jamies :)

[Bannon]

I really do hope they have written some credible narrative as to how Jon's army can prevail over Ramsay's; even the arrival of the Knights of the Vale seems inadequate to the task. Ramsay getting entirely overconfident and doing something stupid would be fairly credible, as would an internal revolt. Military history is pretty rife with overconfident commanders engaging in tremendous blunders, but even blundering generals, if given clearly superior forces, tend to at last achieve stalemate, or avoid strategic defeat. That pretty much what the story was of the Army of the Potomac versus Lee's Army, until Grant took command in the East. I don't quite know how they write this as ending with Ramsay dead or strategically defeated, and I'm ready for Ramsay to leave the story, to say the least, as he has become pretty boring. Hope they pull it off, but in the light of how poorly the attack on Mereen was portrayed this week, I'm not too confident.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Bannon
spelling

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

And as much as no one wants to admit it, losing Joffrey was probably the second biggest loss

I don't agree.  Joffrey was a one-trick pony as a character.  It was a good one trick, but it was thoroughly played out by the time he died, hence why he'd been getting progressively less screentime for a long while.

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

even the arrival of the Knights of the Vales seems inadequate to the task.

Why?  The Knights of the Vale should outnumber the full remaining strength of the North, let alone just Ramsay's portion of it.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't agree.  Joffrey was a one-trick pony as a character.  It was a good one trick, but it was thoroughly played out by the time he died, hence why he'd been getting progressively less screentime for a long while.

Why?  The Knights of the Vale should outnumber the full remaining strength of the North, let alone just Ramsay's portion of it.

I may be misrememebering the numbers of the Knights of the Vale, as portrayed on the show, so perhaps you are right.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Bannon
spelling

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

 The Knights of the Vale should outnumber the full remaining strength of the North, let alone just Ramsay's portion of it.

The Knights of the Vale haven't been involved in any recent armed conflicts.  They were not part of Robb's War for the Northern King, nor any of the Ironborn, Stannis, Winterfell, Bolton, other northern or Riverrun battles.  So they are completely at full strength, whereas Bolton and the other northern lords have  lost at least some men from other battles over the last few years.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The Knights of the Vale haven't been involved in any recent armed conflicts.  They were not part of Robb's War for the Northern King, nor any of the Ironborn, Stannis, Winterfell, Bolton, other northern or Riverrun battles.  So they are completely at full strength, whereas Bolton and the other northern lords have  lost at least some men from other battles over the last few years.

Thanks. LF suddenly allying his forces with Jon Snow would be perfectly in character for LF, so that wouldn't be bad.

[zulualpha]

4 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I agree that you ought not be optimistic.  I think the things you enjoyed most about Blackwater were the result of a relatively limited budget (compared to what they had by Hardhomme) and thus needing smaller, interior set-piece scenes.

I suspect that for the BotB they're going to go full Braveheart in terms of the battle scenes.  

It also didn't hurt that The Battle of Blackwater was written for television by GRRM, IIRC.  The man has skills.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The Knights of the Vale haven't been involved in any recent armed conflicts.  They were not part of Robb's War for the Northern King, nor any of the Ironborn, Stannis, Winterfell, Bolton, other northern or Riverrun battles.  So they are completely at full strength, whereas Bolton and the other northern lords have  lost at least some men from other battles over the last few years.

They're also fully provisioned, coming from a region that's been untouched by the war and have been training.  If they have good leadership I think they could be very effective. 

[Alapaki]

Quote

This is exactly why I don't care that the Blackfish died. He turned his back on his family in favor of hanging onto Riverrun for a little while longer. He would have been an asset in the larger fight, not just against the Boltons but the White Walkers too, and he decides that it's better to end his life taking down a few of nameless Lannister soldiers. He fought for Riverrun and did what he could to hold onto it so IMO his honor should have been satisfied on that score. He could have gone to help protect his niece but chose instead to die for a cause he knew was lost. We already knew he was dead when he made the choice to stay so what's the point in watching him get butchered by the Lannisters?

I side with the Blackfish here.  He said he didn't have enough troops to make a difference at Winterfell.  Why be the one to voluntarily forfeit his family's ancestral home only to end up flayed in the northern snow?

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

They're also fully provisioned, coming from a region that's been untouched by the war and have been training.  If they have good leadership I think they could be very effective. 

And, the biggest advantage they have is surprise.  They would presumably be flanking an already-engaged army, or possibly even attacking from the rear, cutting off their line of retreat to Winterfell.

In that scenario, it entirely likely that Ramsey's Bolton troops would panic and dissolve and the other Northern troops would switch sides.

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, Alapaki said:

Why be the one to voluntarily forfeit his family's ancestral home only to end up flayed in the northern snow?

Except that he didn't 'voluntarily forfeit' his family's ancestral home, it was taken away from him by the Lord of said home and his death didn't make a damn bit of difference to Riverrun either.  At least with helping Sansa, he could have provided some battle strategy.

[Tikichick]

In all the hoopla about the Battle of the Bastards we've been focused primarily on the reference to Jon and Ramsay.  Isn't Littlefinger himself a bastard?

[Alapaki]

1 minute ago, Hanahope said:

Except that he didn't 'voluntarily forfeit' his family's ancestral home, it was taken away from him by the Lord of said home and his death didn't make a damn bit of difference to Riverrun either.  At least with helping Sansa, he could have provided some battle strategy.

When Blackfish rejected Sansa's entreaty Edmure had not yet returned to assert his own Lordship.

 

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

In all the hoopla about the Battle of the Bastards we've been focused primarily on the reference to Jon and Ramsay.  Isn't Littlefinger himself a bastard?

I don't think we have any evidence that Littlefinger was a bastard.  He was just from a very minor house, wasn't he?

However, you know who is a bastard?  Tommen.

I'm wondering if we don't get at least 15-20 minutes of Kings Landing chaos along with Winterfell.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

Your hate for Ramsay is showing. Tywin isn't overcoming a, what is it 4 to 1, disadvantage with a field disadvantage also. Especially with a group of untrained Wildlings with shitty armor making up most of the army. If Jon holds his own before LF gets there its unrealistic. People complain about "Super Ramsay", but everyone seems to want "Super Jon"

No my "hate" for Ramsay is not showing. I don't "hate" Ramsay in a way that downplays Ramsay's army, or smartness, or vicious desire to rule. I hate Ramsay because he is a nutcase a la Joffrey without Cersei or Twyin to rein in his temper, a sociopath who feeds babies to dogs and rape women. Sorry, what is there to not hate? Of course I hate Ramsay like everybody else does, it doesn't mean I think he is stupid. I found stupid that so many people supported him without pondering the cost of following a madman to be their ruler, but that is another story.

I would preffer all the North Lords who didn't want to help Sansa and Jon to get to their senses and join them against Ramsay, I would preffer all crows still alive to help them, I would preffer Bran to join them somehow and warg every horse there to stomp over Ramsay's soldiers, than Littlefinger to save the day and be seen as hero, in any shape or form. Littlefinger is the caracter I hate the most in the show - though my blood boils thinking about Catelyn Stark.

I don't believe in Super Jon at all. I don't even think he wants to be there as much as I think he knows he needs to be there, and Jon asking Melisandre to not bring him back in the promo reminds me so much of Buffy dying and being brought back: 'I was at peace, I was free' - or something to that effect, it has been years since the last time I saw this scene. Anyway, Jon has made so many mistakes in the past, is far from being the smartest there even if in the book he was a very nice strategist, that there is no way he is super anything. I'm sure Jon (and Sansa) will win the battle against Ramsay because Ramsay as a character is done, because Jon he is one of the good guys, because the Starks (be it Jon or Sansa) need to be back in Winterfell, because the show needs a united North to (try to) beat the White Walkers. History is full of examples about small armies beating the odds, while very difficult it is not impossible, specially if Jon and Sansa get help (ugh, Littlefinger). You can't even discount some of Ramsay's people deciding they are better with the Starks than with the nutcase. I don't think it is unrealistic that Jon holds on until help arrives. Isn't this how it happens in real life? 

Tywin, re: I totally forgot about Edmure, and you are right that given the same army Jon has now he would have problems. However, I was thiking about Tywin with all his power, money and army, and a decent commander on the field (Jamie?).

ETA: The way I see it, in spite or D&D love for all things Lena, the only "Super Insert Name" in the show is Danaerys.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Raachel2008

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

When Blackfish rejected Sansa's entreaty Edmure had not yet returned to assert his own Lordship.

 

I don't think we have any evidence that Littlefinger was a bastard.  He was just from a very minor house, wasn't he?

However, you know who is a bastard?  Tommen.

I'm wondering if we don't get at least 15-20 minutes of Kings Landing chaos along with Winterfell.

I'm fuzzy about Littlefinger's background at the moment, whether he was ever a Rivers and given the name and position of Petyr Baelish, or whether he was born legitimately a Baelish.  

Yeah, I have little doubt the fact Tommen is a bastard is how the High Sparrow intends to take him down when he decides his puppet is of no use or isn't fully under his control.  I think the time is quite near, quite possibly this season yet.

[cambridgeguy]

25 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The Knights of the Vale haven't been involved in any recent armed conflicts.  They were not part of Robb's War for the Northern King, nor any of the Ironborn, Stannis, Winterfell, Bolton, other northern or Riverrun battles.  So they are completely at full strength, whereas Bolton and the other northern lords have  lost at least some men from other battles over the last few years.

This is probably what will happen so it's a shame Sansa didn't (presumably) change her mind about accepting LF's help until after Brienne left.  She could have told the Blackfish that after wiping out the Boltons the Vale knights might help out at Riverrun as well.  Robin is Blackfish's grand nephew, after all.  Heck, in the books Blackfish was serving in the Vale for many years and back when they were kids he was like an honorary uncle to LF.  That obviously means nothing as far as LF is concerned but Blackfish might be willing to gamble on that.

[Avaleigh]

13 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

When Blackfish rejected Sansa's entreaty Edmure had not yet returned to assert his own Lordship.

The Blackfish could have jumped in the boat with Pod and Brienne. He knew it was over and that he was about to die trying to keep Riverrun. He chose to die instead of going to help his niece. He admitted that he knew that Sansa's letter was genuine. His experience absolutely would have made him valuable to Jon and Sansa's side IMO. I seriously doubt that fear of being flayed in the northern snow factored into his decision at all. 

He even understands Sansa's motives. Since he failed in protecting his ancestral home and knows what a blow that is, you'd think helping his niece would feel like the next best option. 

[kittykat]

21 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I'm wondering if we don't get at least 15-20 minutes of Kings Landing chaos along with Winterfell.

I think KL is sitting out and Meereen will be the time filler since things are finally actually happening there.  Both BotB and that one have similar parallels.  The Good guys (or "good" in Dany's case) seem hopelessly outnumbered and are likely to be bailed out in similar circumstances once fighting on their side goes sour (The Vale and the Greyjoy fleet).

On the BotB front I still can see a few Northmen turning against Ramsay but we'll see.  I've enjoyed not seeing him these last four episodes, here's hoping this is his last.

38 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The Knights of the Vale haven't been involved in any recent armed conflicts.  They were not part of Robb's War for the Northern King, nor any of the Ironborn, Stannis, Winterfell, Bolton, other northern or Riverrun battles.  So they are completely at full strength, whereas Bolton and the other northern lords have  lost at least some men from other battles over the last few years.

Yeah that was my thought.  While Lysa was alive she deliberately stayed out the WotFK and the Vale troops are heavily numbered.

Edited June 13, 2016 by kittykat

[Raachel2008]

24 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I'm fuzzy about Littlefinger's background at the moment, whether he was ever a Rivers and given the name and position of Petyr Baelish, or whether he was born legitimately a Baelish.  

Yeah, I have little doubt the fact Tommen is a bastard is how the High Sparrow intends to take him down when he decides his puppet is of no use or isn't fully under his control.  I think the time is quite near, quite possibly this season yet.

IIRC, he was a Baelish by birth.

[nodorothyparker]

21 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I'm fuzzy about Littlefinger's background at the moment, whether he was ever a Rivers and given the name and position of Petyr Baelish, or whether he was born legitimately a Baelish.  

Yeah, I have little doubt the fact Tommen is a bastard is how the High Sparrow intends to take him down when he decides his puppet is of no use or isn't fully under his control.  I think the time is quite near, quite possibly this season yet.

Littlefinger isn't a bastard.  The Baelishes are a very poor minor house only a generation or two removed from being sell swords and hedge knights.  Littlefinger made the most of being fostered to the Tullys and a later relationship with Jon Arryn to climb all the way to the Small Council.

Tommen's legitimacy is one those things that everybody knows about but there isn't any hard proof of not having an Ye Olde DNA Lab handy, so he's whatever you need him to be.  As long as Big Bird needs a puppet king on the throne, he's a trueborn Baratheon.  

[Hanahope]

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm sure Jon (and Sansa) will win the battle against Ramsay because Ramsay as a character is done, because Jon he is one of the good guys, because the Starks (be it Jon or Sansa) need to be back in Winterfell, because the show needs a united North to (try to) beat the White Walkers.

 

Yeah, I'm sure the show will paint the dire odds Jon/Sansa face, they will lose at first, suffer near defeat, but will ultimately prevail, probably with the Vale army at the "last minute" because the real "Final Battle" isn't over Winterfell, we all know its with the Night King and White Walkers.  There's no way Ramsay is going to fight that battle, so it almost certainly will be Jon.

[Maximum Taco]

59 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I'm fuzzy about Littlefinger's background at the moment, whether he was ever a Rivers and given the name and position of Petyr Baelish, or whether he was born legitimately a Baelish.  

Yeah, I have little doubt the fact Tommen is a bastard is how the High Sparrow intends to take him down when he decides his puppet is of no use or isn't fully under his control.  I think the time is quite near, quite possibly this season yet.

Littlefinger's great-grandfather was born in Braavos and came to be in the service of House Corbray (of Heart's Home), his son was eventually knighted and took the Titan's Head as his sigil, he never had any lands. His son, Littlefinger's father, was the first Lord Baelish who was awarded a small keep on the smallest of the peninsulae known as the Fingers (get it? Littlefinger) and he passed on said keep to his son Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish, who discarded the Titan's Head and took for his sigil the Mockingbird, as we know he parlayed his own talents into the Lordship of Harrenhal. They are climbers those Baelishes, each bettering their fathers. Only place for Petyr's son to go is the throne itself.

Anyway, Littlefinger is not, nor has ever been a bastard.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

11 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

 

Yeah, I'm sure the show will paint the dire odds Jon/Sansa face, they will lose at first, suffer near defeat, but will ultimately prevail, probably with the Vale army at the "last minute" because the real "Final Battle" isn't over Winterfell, we all know its with the Night King and White Walkers.  There's no way Ramsay is going to fight that battle, so it almost certainly will be Jon.

This seems to be the way every major battle is portrayed in the movies and on television.  I remember someone pointing this out on the old TWOP thread about Blackwater. 

[stillshimpy]

I side with the Blackfish here.  He said he didn't have enough troops to make a difference at Winterfell.  Why be the one to voluntarily forfeit his family's ancestral home only to end up flayed in the northern snow?

It is taking an incredibly narrow view of what the obligations of family honor are to assign greater value to the real estate involved vs. the people.  Blood is something that pumps through your veins, it doesn't run through the walls of a pile of rocks. 

Blackfish was choosing said pile of rocks against trying to strike out against the people who lured his sister into a trap and murdered her.  

Dude, dying attempting to bring that house to its knees, to fight for those who share your blood vs. a homestead that can never love you back because it is an inanimate object, would seem the more honorable move if honor means anything at all. 

The Blackfish died protecting the Tully's portfolio and left his niece to face He Who Flays.  Sure, there's honor in protecting the ancestral home, but not in choosing that over trying to save the life of your niece.  

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, benteen said:

This seems to be the way every major battle is portrayed in the movies and on television.  I remember someone pointing this out on the old TWOP thread about Blackwater. 

Very overrated movie, but "Braveheart" was ok in this regard, showing that sometimes having better tactics makes the outcome pretty certain from the outset, in how it portrayed The Battle of Stirling. In tactics, with infantry prevailing over cavalry, it actually was portrayed with some relationship to reality. 

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm sure Littlefinger will show up with his army, and I don't mind his help, it is the notion that Littlefinger saves the day

 

48 minutes ago, kittykat said:

The Good guys (or "good" in Dany's case) seem hopelessly outnumbered and are likely to be bailed out in similar circumstances once fighting on their side goes sour (The Vale and the Greyjoy fleet).

I fear you are correct.  They keep going to that well, since the Battle of Blackwater Bay and the siege of the Wall ended with surprise attacks from outside groups.  It's reminding me of that George Lucas quote about the prequels:  "It's like poetry; it rhymes.  Each stanza rhymes with the previous one.  hopefully it'll work."  [spoilers = it didn't]. 

 

These last minute rescues are getting repetitive.  Hopefully they'll avoid that in Meereen, with Dany and the Dragons laying waste to the Harpy fleet, or at least significantly damaging it so that they back off.  Then have Yara and Theon arrive for the mop-up, and to capture some ships that Dany will need for getting to Westeros.

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

The Blackfish could have jumped in the boat with Pod and Brienne. He knew it was over and that he was about to die trying to keep Riverrun. He chose to die instead of going to help his niece. He admitted that he knew that Sansa's letter was genuine. His experience absolutely would have made him valuable to Jon and Sansa's side IMO. I seriously doubt that fear of being flayed in the northern snow factored into his decision at all. 

He even understands Sansa's motives. Since he failed in protecting his ancestral home and knows what a blow that is, you'd think helping his niece would feel like the next best option. 

To what end?  He's a bad-ass.  But he's no strategic genius, at least as far as we've been shown.  I doubt he would've made a significant difference.  (if he's a dummy for not wanting to go, then what kind of asset would he be if he went?) Or, as he said himself, a significantly marginal difference above what Brienne already provides Sansa.  By contrast, trying to sneak out with Brienne puts a potentially huge target on her back and diminishes the odds of her making it alive back to Sansa.

29 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 

It is taking an incredibly narrow view of what the obligations of family honor are to assign greater value to the real estate involved vs. the people.  Blood is something that pumps through your veins, it doesn't run through the walls of a pile of rocks. 

Blackfish was choosing said pile of rocks against trying to strike out against the people who lured his sister into a trap and murdered her.  

Dude, dying attempting to bring that house to its knees, to fight for those who share your blood vs. a homestead that can never love you back because it is an inanimate object, would seem the more honorable move if honor means anything at all. 

The Blackfish died protecting the Tully's portfolio and left his niece to face He Who Flays.  Sure, there's honor in protecting the ancestral home, but not in choosing that over trying to save the life of your niece.  

I disagree.  The survival of the Tullys very much depended on the strength of having a Castle that could be turned into an island.  Neither the Lannisters nor the Freys nor the land itself was fit to sustain an army of that size in a prolonged siege.  Any attack on Riverrun would probably involve putting the Freys and any river-Lords who returned to the Crown in the front lines (which is what Jaime threatened in the books).  While that gave Jaime a bunch of soldiers he could be wiling to sacrifice, it was also a lot of troops of uncertain fighting ability and/or spirit.  And having lost nearly half his forces in the Battle of the Camps, the Lannister troops that Jaime brought to Riverrun would be extremely hard to replace if he were to lose a significant number of them in the assault.  

I maintain that, given what he knew at the time he rejected Brienne, Blackfish made the correct strategic move.  There was very little upside to abandoning his castle and taking his forces north (assuming the Lannisters and/or Freys wouldn't have reneged and fell upon the Tully troops while they were in transit).

As far as leaving on Edmure cracked, as I said above, I don't see him making that much of a difference by himself.

[placate]

1 hour ago, kittykat said:

I think KL is sitting out and Meereen will be the time filler since things are finally actually happening there. 

I'm hoping it will be Bran and R+L=J is confirmed.

[Haleth]

4 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

To what end?  He's a bad-ass.  But he's no strategic genius, at least as far as we've been shown.  I doubt he would've made a significant difference.  (if he's a dummy for not wanting to go, then what kind of asset would he be if he went?) Or, as he said himself, a significantly marginal difference above what Brienne already provides Sansa.  By contrast, trying to sneak out with Brienne puts a potentially huge target on her back and diminishes the odds of her making it alive back to Sansa.

Not to mention abandoning the Riverrun soldiers to the Freys is not very honorable.  I'm not sure what choice he had, but going down swinging is more in character than sneaking away in the night.

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, Haleth said:

Not to mention abandoning the Riverrun soldiers to the Freys is not very honorable.  I'm not sure what choice he had, but going down swinging is more in character than sneaking away in the night.

He's not the commander of the Riverrun soldiers anymore, Edmure relieved him and then commanded his arrest. I don't think it's a violation of honour to ditch the lot of them.

I don't know if going down swinging is a lot more in character for him. He seems much more the "live to fight another day" type. Atleast in the books, he refuses Jaime's invitation to single combat, and in both the books and the show he wants to hide inside Riverrun and let the Lannisters and Freys break themselves on their walls. Not exactly the man who seeks a glorious death in battle, he's trying to hold out as long as possible.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

I disagree.  The survival of the Tullys very much depended on the strength of having a Castle that could be turned into an island.  

The only surviving Tullys are Edmure -- who the Blackfish was fine with the Freys killings, Edmure's son who is in the hands of the Freys and then the children of his two sisters.  He was blocking the actual heir from returning home. The Blackfish was not the heir.  He's ignoring his surviving family in order to die trying to hold onto a Castle that will have no one to inhabit it.  Blackfish never married, never produced an heir.  There is honor in protecting an ancestral home, but not if the only Tullys around to carry on in it are ghosts. 

 

The eradication of his family line is imminent.  The Blackfish, by his own admission, did not expect to win over the Lannister forces.  He expected to die -- by starvation or battle -- trying to hold onto that pile of rocks.  He wasn't trying to save the castle for the strength of his family.  He was choosing his hill to die on. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by stillshimpy