S08.E10: Unhappy Holidays

[Grey Goose]

On 6/11/2016 at 11:01 PM, Trooper York said:

Seriously? I don't think we are hard enough on her. She is a worthless sack of crap.

What one thing did she ever do that was fun and enjoyable?

When she told Aviva her opinion was not important because she never worked outside the home? When she practiced her "To Catch a Predator" technique on the surfing instructor before she snatched vegetable boy out of the kitchen? Her time share dog? Her bear suit? Being a barnacle on the ass of Heather and now Bethenny?

Her acumulated wit and wisdom makes Amber Marchese look like Aristotle. Theresa Giudice wrote four books to her one in the past three years. Or at least her ghost writer did.

You can never be hard enough on Carole. She is just the worst.

I don't necessarily have a lot of emotion about  or 100% agreement with your post but I like it.  You write better than Carole. 

[ryebread]

1 hour ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Lol! I'm sorry! girl I did apologize in advance.    Lawd, no. You read the comments?   {gulp} 

It's weirdly fascinating to read the comments in blogs and forums from seasons past.  We reality TV viewers are a fickle, fickle bunch!

[Yours Truly]

47 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I didn't see it that way then and I don't see it that way now.  Nor did I see that she was systematically bullied. Agree to disagree.

I only quoted you to refer to the link.

Once you've been on the other side of stealth mean girlisms and bullying a lot of scenes and interactions play out completely differently than what a lot of other people see. It's quite common for most to only see what's coming across on the surface and have no reason to observe in any more depth than that and for the most part that's actually the basic norm when going throughout our days. Nothing wrong with that. However, the most obvious of behaviors don't negate the more subtle behaviors within a bigger picture. I sort of look at it like some people being drawn to the big, bold and to the point print of a contract while those of use also notice the fine print and take a little more interested notice in those underlying details.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I'm not sure about the part about Kelly being harmless. Alex said later that we only saw a small percentage of what actually went down and that it was incredible. Remember how we found out later that they posted guards outside of Beth's bedroom door because Kelly kept strangely talking out how horrible it would be if Beth suffered a miscarriage (in addition to some other troubling stuff she was saying). Production had to take her away from the island because folks were freaked out by her. Something very bad was happening to Kelly on that trip, and as troubling as it was to watch, I cannot imagine what it must have felt like in the moment. I don't think that Bravo (or anyone else) believed she was truly a danger all by herself - or they wouldn't have asked her back and the others wouldn't have filmed with her - but I think the thought process was that Kelly was on something that was making her behave very erratically. 

When production is afraid for their lives and insisting Bravo Big Wigs get her out of there, there is a problem.  People were sticking together and locking the doors.  It was much, much worse than what we saw (which was bad enough!)  They stopped filming because of fear, and getting behind a locked door.

2 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Mmhm, for real.  Meaning she was likely always not well but there's way no any of them could have known it, nor any reason to assume it, in someone they hadn't known for long.    I do think it's unfair to spar with someone who clearly isn't equipped to do so.  I just happen to disagree that in her case that was clear or even that it should've been because Kelly had some non-delusional moments as well.   Excluding professionals, I don't think everybody can pick something like that up unless they've spent a concentrated amount of time with the other person.   I believe Beth in particular was vocal about Kelly because Kelly herself couldn't take an L.  She insisted upon addressing Beth with:  delusions she was accustomed to other people indulging + wild inaccuracies that really gained steam in her imagination + conflicting sentiments in the same breath + inability to focus on conversations she initiated.    Watch the clip, it's the only time Beth ever approached Kelly and that was in an attempt to smooth out their tension.   She would not be ignored (Dan) lol.

Exactly.  This didn't start out as "get Kelly" in any way.  She was going after Bethenny from the jump.  You're not a chef!  When offered pretzels during the drive by Bethenny, she went into her "I only eat organic!" nutso eye rolling.  For quite a while it was just Kelly being her normal bitchy, egotistical self.  It's a fine line between Kelly just going after Bethenny as usual and the *snap* when you realize "OMG, more is going on here, this isn't normal even for Kelly."  The other wives didn't see her freak out about Bethenny planning to kill her because she brought her a gift bag, or making the cross with her fingers to ward off the devil. 

Sonja, who was in no way attacked by Kelly, so wasn't defending herself, was able to talk a bit alone with Kelly and realize that she was truly nuts.  BTW, they others tried to simply leave when Kelly would start her lunatic ravings.

So, no, I don't see them as a pack of hyenas.  I see them as women who were watching a bitch be a bitch, until they realized that even for this incredibly stupid woman, more was going on, this was more than normal Kelly bitchiness, this was straight jacket territory.

42 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I didn't see it that way then and I don't see it that way now.  Nor did I see that she was systematically bullied. Agree to disagree.

She wasn't bullied, she was the one doing the bully crap, especially to her target, Bethenny.

---

We watched a woman have a breakdown on camera, and even with the added help of talking heads and horror show music, how many of us realized this wasn't just Kelly being a complete asshole to Bethenny and acting above all the other wives right away?  It's weird, I always thought there was something seriously wrong with Kelly, from the jump, but I never thought it was THIS wrong. 

[Yours Truly]

Just now, Umbelina said:

When production is afraid for their lives and insisting Bravo Big Wigs get her out of there, there is a problem.  People were sticking together and locking the doors.  It was much, much worse than what we saw (which was bad enough!)  They stopped filming because of fear, and getting behind a locked door.

Exactly.  This didn't start out as "get Kelly" in any way.  She was going after Bethenny from the jump.  You're not a chef!  When offered pretzels during the drive by Bethenny, she went into her "I only eat organic!" nutso eye rolling.  For quite a while it was just Kelly being her normal bitchy, egotistical self.  It's a fine line between Kelly just going after Bethenny as usual and the *snap* when you realize "OMG, more is going on here, this isn't normal even for Kelly."  The other wives didn't see her freak out about Bethenny planning to kill her because she brought her a gift bag, or making the cross with her fingers to ward off the devil. 

Sonja, who was in no way attacked by Kelly, so wasn't defending herself, was able to talk a bit alone with Kelly and realize that she was truly nuts.  BTW, they others tried to simply leave when Kelly would start her lunatic ravings.

So, no, I don't see them as a pack of hyenas.  I see them as women who were watching a bitch be a bitch, until they realized that even for this incredibly stupid woman, more was going on, this was more than normal Kelly bitchiness, this was straight jacket territory.

She wasn't bullied, she was the one doing the bully crap, especially to her target, Bethenny.

---

We watched a woman have a breakdown on camera, and even with the added help of talking heads and horror show music, how many of us realized this wasn't just Kelly being a complete asshole to Bethenny and acting above all the other wives right away?  It's weird, I always thought there was something seriously wrong with Kelly, from the jump, but I never thought it was THIS wrong. 

Who's an authority on bullying? I wonder.

[Umbelina]

Who has to be an "authority" on anything to watch it happen and call it as it is?

Kelly detested Bethenny, and, we now know, thought she was the devil and perhaps her fetus would be killed...somehow.

She never let up on her.  As usual by the way, but this time others were there to see it, and experience it.  As soon as they realized Kelly was "commit her" level of crazy, not just being her normal nasty above-it-all self, they stopped.  They aren't psychiatrists, or maybe they would have seen it earlier.  Even then though, there was no placating Kelly, because if Bethenny lifted her pinkie finger Kelly took it as an attack.

[izabella]

Alls I know (TM Countess), is that Bethy and Carole have been trying to bully Luann this season, at every single event where she has been present, and trying to get the others to Mean Girl her along the way (Carole telling Do not to invite Luann to the party). 

[Yours Truly]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Who has to be an "authority" on anything to watch it happen and call it as it is?

Kelly detested Bethenny, and, we now know, thought she was the devil and perhaps her fetus would be killed...somehow.

She never let up on her.  As usual by the way, but this time others were there to see it, and experience it.  As soon as they realized Kelly was "commit her" level of crazy, not just being her normal nasty above-it-all self, they stopped.  They aren't psychiatrists, or maybe they would have seen it earlier.  Even then though, there was no placating Kelly, because if Bethenny lifted her pinkie finger Kelly took it as an attack.

Call it as you see it. Not as it is because I called it differently that's all I'm pointing out.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Umbelina]

Everything I post is "as I see it."  You know that Yours Truly!  <3

[ElDosEquis]

Methenny is an asshole.

Plain and simple. She is the idiot that whips people up into a frenzy with her make-believe toughness and witticism. She makes like a tough talking chick, when in reality?

She's a fucking loudmouth without a spine.

No one can get a word in edgewise because she keeps getting louder and louder and she tries to shut people down with her attitude. And when someone calls her on her shit? She runs.

She has no class, manners, couth or style - but I don't think she was raised by wolves, no, one had a bowel movement and lo!

Beffy was born.

I have said this before....If you were a man and dated her?

You'd get to the party, spend a few hours cringing at her elbow while she talks about penis size, sex, assholes and makes other inappropriate comments. Then you'd spend another hour apologizing for what she said and the rest of your life being laughed at for dating her/bringing her to the event.

 

It takes some balls to think you invented a mixed drink, then get upset when someone does exactly what you are doing - slapping your name on something that already exists in life and trying to sell it as something new?

[Yours Truly]

54 minutes ago, izabella said:

Alls I know (TM Countess), is that Bethy and Carole have been trying to bully Luann this season, at every single event where she has been present, and trying to get the others to Mean Girl her along the way (Carole telling Do not to invite Luann to the party). 

Agreed.

When it becomes an ongoing theme. When others are recruited to join in on the fodder and then have it end up affecting how others begin to treat the criticized party... It wasn't just being mean to each other. That's what happens in BH. A bunch of women that have their moments with each other and start feeling a certain kind of way.  It's not 2 people just not liking one another. It's the intent and determination to have someone feel a certain kind of way about themselves at the end of the day. To be alienated. To have other see someone else as you see them. It's the effort that is continuously made to create an end result. That's bullying. That's just not two individuals that don't get along or misbehave when they are around each other. It's the deliberate need to pit others against someone. There's a difference.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Umbelina]

Not everyone who works together gets along.

Carole has very good reasons to not want to film with Luann.

Bethenny has very good reasons to not want to film with Sonja.

I still don't get Ramona's deal though.  How and why has she turned on Sonja so thoroughly?  What is going on there?  No, I don't believe it's to be on "Bethenny's good side."  Ramona has never cared about that, and why would she start now?  She's another one who is golden for this show, unpredictable, and likely to do almost anything, Bravo definitely wants to keep her.  She doesn't need Bethenny's good will to have a job or scenes, that's just crazy.  So something else is going on there.

Maybe they quarreled over the Shyster?  Ramona was being conned by him just last year, so perhaps it was Sonja refusing to listen to sense?  It has to be more though.  There was a ring of truth to Ramona saying that she didn't want to be associated with the easy sex and lots of drinking, at least truthful for the mess that is Ramona.  Still, that's a pretty huge break, possibly the biggest on any show that doesn't involve sisters.  They were close friends for years, not just for the show.  Maybe familiarity did birth contempt.  Before they mostly socialized as married couple, or at least one still married woman.  Now that they are both single it changed their dynamic somehow?

[ElDosEquis]

17 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

Agreed.

When it becomes an ongoing theme. When others are recruited to join in on the fodder and then have it end up affecting how others begin to treat the criticized party... It wasn't just being mean to each other. That's what happens in BH. A bunch of women that have their moments with each other and start feeling a certain kind of way.  It's not 2 people just not liking one another. It's the intent and determination to have someone feel a certain kind of way about themselves at the end of the day. To be alienated. To have other see someone else as you see them. It's the effort that is continuously made to create an end result. That's bullying. That's just not to individual that don't get along or misbehave when they are around each other. It's the deliberate need to pit others against someone. There's a difference.

And one of the most amazing things about the whole situation?

Methenny will never admit to the 'work' she did to make KooKoo flip out (I have love for neither character so I am not standing up for Kelly).  She'd never accept any responsibility for being a jerk or a bully.

Here's a quick guide to deciphering "Beth-Speak".

If you think what comes out of her piehole is funny. Pretend it comes out of your mouth. Then see if it's funnier when you are the person being targeted. Then ask yourself if you'd laugh at that brand of humor if you were a mere bystander, watching her berate someone in her style?

[izabella]

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I still don't get Ramona's deal though.  How and why has she turned on Sonja so thoroughly?  What is going on there?  No, I don't believe it's to be on "Bethenny's good side."  Ramona has never cared about that, and why would she start now?  She's another one who is golden for this show, unpredictable, and likely to do almost anything, Bravo definitely wants to keep her.  She doesn't need Bethenny's good will to have a job or scenes, that's just crazy.  So something else is going on there.

I think she does want to stay on Beasty's good side, not because she's in danger of getting kicked off the show, but because, again, scenes without Beasty end up on the cutting room floor.

Quote

There was a ring of truth to Ramona saying that she didn't want to be associated with the easy sex and lots of drinking, at least truthful for the mess that is Ramona.

I think this is part of the reason she's turned on Sonja.  Ramona wants to find herself another husband, and hanging with Sonja isn't going to assist her in that regard.  Of course, Ramona wants to forget that her glass of pinot is just about surgically attached to her hand, and Beasty is only going to introduce her to unsuitable men (He's a BARTENDER!!!).

Edited June 13, 2016 by izabella

[Umbelina]

Ramona often does this show as a fly by.  Yes, she shows up for filming, but she's out of there ASAP unless she's having fun.  I think she likes the paycheck, and just because of who she is, she creates story (leaving the Berkshires, "take a xanex!"  the stuff with John, telling Bethenny she's unlovable, fighting with Jill over anything, tennis, husbands, her naturally blunt way of speaking, breaking into places, setting people up, turtle time!)  With Bethenny around, Ramona doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting at eliciting something worth showing for Bravo.

I'm not sure about that last part, and if Ramona gets a bug up her ass she'll go after Bethenny without a care in the world.  I think she's on Bethenny's side right now because of Sonja and the Shyster.  She said she warned Sonja about the guy, but Sonja wouldn't listen.  That alone was probably enough to set Ramona off, she thinks of herself as a business woman, and indeed, she was good at business. 

There has to be more though.  I keep going back to Sonja's daughter being sent away to school, and Dorinda and Ramona talking about how out of control Sonja's been this year.  They both do know her, in real life.  Dorinda seems to completely agree with Ramona, not one word contradicting it.  It's making me wonder.  Ramona wouldn't give a damn about Sonja "hurting Bethenny's business" she'd probably cheer, but she knows the Shyster is a con man, and that Sonja, though warned emphatically, ignored her.  Would that level of frustration be enough to ruin a decades long friendship though? 

Does Sonja really have a "reputation" around town, and Ramona is husband hunting and doesn't want to be associated with Luann and Sonja's party down ways?  Honestly, Ramona seems to get drunk as often as anyone.  Is Ramona trying to change her ways there?  She seemed pretty lit up at John's party. 

[izabella]

55 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

There has to be more though.  I keep going back to Sonja's daughter being sent away to school, and Dorinda and Ramona talking about how out of control Sonja's been this year.  They both do know her, in real life.  Dorinda seems to completely agree with Ramona, not one word contradicting it.  It's making me wonder.  Ramona wouldn't give a damn about Sonja "hurting Bethenny's business" she'd probably cheer, but she knows the Shyster is a con man, and that Sonja, though warned emphatically, ignored her.  Would that level of frustration be enough to ruin a decades long friendship though? 

Does Sonja really have a "reputation" around town, and Ramona is husband hunting and doesn't want to be associated with Luann and Sonja's party down ways?  Honestly, Ramona seems to get drunk as often as anyone.  Is Ramona trying to change her ways there?  She seemed pretty lit up at John's party. 

Those are good questions, and I'd like to know what's going on there, too. 

I think we're seeing Divorced Ramona, and not just her new rack and hair extensions.  I was curious what Divorced Ramona would be like, but they're only giving us glimpses here and there.  Same with Sonja - they keep hinting at some darker "Sonja is out of control" story line but never come out and say what.

Why is Lu in tears worrying about Sonja?  Why did Ramona and Lu try so hard to get Sonja to make nice with Bethy?  Why did they tell her to back out of TipsyGirl and apologize to Bethy?   Bethy spent a lot of time "advising" Sonja last season about her drinking problem and trips to Gstaad.  Are they really worried or is this scripted?

[ryebread]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I still don't get Ramona's deal though.  How and why has she turned on Sonja so thoroughly? 

I dunno but when she was in Dorinda's kitchen and was talking about how Sonja could pick up the wrong guy, bring him home and then they'd read about her in the paper the next day being dead...ick.

Especially when she continued to be awful to her at the Christmas party that she, Ramona, was hosting and invited her to. Either be concerned for your friend, or don't be.  But don't act all worried about a Mr. Goodbar situation and then invite her to your function only to harass her with, "Bethenny is never going to talk to you again."  "Never." "Nope, she's never talking to you again." "You need to pucker up and kiss that ass."  Eff that noise.

[jaync]

Quote

Where she loses me is by calling people who don't work outside the home, 'nothings'. 

I don't recall Carole saying that in regards to people in general, but just towards nasty Aviva (who never failed to remind that she couldn't do a lot of things outside the home because of her supposed phobias/ailments).

Quote

And being dumb enough to eat gummy bears laced with acid and then bragging about puking on her boyfriend' s shoes.

Yes. Dumber than dirt.

If Aviva were still on the show, I can see her vying for a place in Beth's crowded rectum. Especially if Reid told her it would be for the best.

Quote

Imagine having one viewing session with Heather and Kristen and another with Alex, Jill, and Kelly.

I'm there for it! And, include Danielle "couching" the NJ crew.

Quote

If Sonja would have been there, Sonja's brand would have gotten a lot of discussion.

Maybe, but BFD. Sonja has an apple. Just like Beth. That Sonja must be stifled because Beth is a petty hosebeast is straight up bullshit.

Quote

I believe Heather would have sided with Bethenny over the business thing, Heather has little use for Sonja and her businesses. 

Perhaps, but Heather could always get past her frustrations with Sonja, and was able to re-embrace her afterwards. However, that was the good ol' days, when Ramona could throw a glass at Kristen, and the next day everybody's doing hangover yoga and laughing at Sonja's farting. Has there been an event this season where a genuine good time was had by all?

Edited June 14, 2016 by jaync

[Petunia13]

I think it's telling Sonja and LuAnn were the most patient and sensitive to Kelly. 

Beth's jaw in that video is about as wide as Kelly's shoulders. She looks like a Dick Tracy villain. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Petunia13

[zoeysmom]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Those are good questions, and I'd like to know what's going on there, too. 

I think we're seeing Divorced Ramona, and not just her new rack and hair extensions.  I was curious what Divorced Ramona would be like, but they're only giving us glimpses here and there.  Same with Sonja - they keep hinting at some darker "Sonja is out of control" story line but never come out and say what.

Why is Lu in tears worrying about Sonja?  Why did Ramona and Lu try so hard to get Sonja to make nice with Bethy?  Why did they tell her to back out of TipsyGirl and apologize to Bethy?   Bethy spent a lot of time "advising" Sonja last season about her drinking problem and trips to Gstaad.  Are they really worried or is this scripted?

I believe Luann, not necessarily Ramona knew that Sonja is cutting her nose off to spit her face with the Tipsy Girl stuff.  Ramona comes from a place of apologizing and thinks Sonja can give a bullshit apology and Bethenny will forgive. It is not going to happen.  Bethenny said it best, "when I say I am done with somebody I am done with them." (See Bethenny's mother, husband, Jill Zarin and many others.) Then Ramona would run a victory lap and take credit for getting the warring factions back together.  Ramona lives by those eighth grade standards of pleading, apologizing and pretending the others forget.

Ramona has said she spent zero time with Sonja in the off season-she was punishing her for not being up to Ramona's standards. 

Divorcing Ramona, remember her plan in life when she told a broken up Bethenny, Season 2,  to go on lots of dates and not get serious?  I think Ramona is trying to apply this to the dating field of a sixty year old woman and it is not working for her.   This insanity she and Sonja practices with their boyfriends or dates.  If you are dating more than one person, be it male or female, you have no rights of exclusivity, you treat them like a number be prepared when they move on to some who wants to date just them.  Sonja is the worst, you never know if she dated someone two weeks ago or twenty years ago or at all.   Carole and Bethenny sounded ridiculous when they quoted Sonja and saying, "Sonja said you have been with half her boyfriends."  It is an idiotic statement as Sonja should only have one boyfriend at a time if she wants to be taken seriously  or taken at all.

Carole doesn't care about Sonja and only uses Luann helping Sonja as a way to further dump on Luann.  What the story is about Sonja is she goes out and is unable to care for herself.  Ramona ditches her and does her own thing and Luann is left to tuck Sonja in.   

[breezy424]

I don't remember Carole saying that women who don't work outside the home are nothings but....IMO she implied that women who didn't work outside the home are not as...I don't have the right word...as worldly, knowing , sophisticated, knowledgeable, superior...none of them exactly fit what I got from that statement.  Bottom line it was a put down.  It was like a person who isn't out there making a personal income doesn't know what the real world is about.  Note to Carole:  Taking care of a child or children knows more about the 'real' world than any professional.  People are always giving credo's to teachers.  Well, stay at home parents do that and a lot more.  Spend 24/7 with a child.  It's exhausting.  It's also the most rewarding thing you can do.

I've given Jules a lot of flack about her not having a nanny.  Yes Jules, it's hard.  But you also work it out.  Just like anyone who has a profession.  You can take showers.  You do it when they nap.  You do it when they're at preschool.  You do it and take them in the shower with you.  You do it while placing them in the carrier and place it outside the shower.  It's hard but you  do it.  You're not freaking helpless.  I don't know if Jules has ever had a job before children.  If she did, I don't think she ever was someone who got it done.  Making coffee at age thirty something is an accomplishment?  WTF.

[lunastartron]

The exact quote (or close to it) from Carole to Aviva was "who are you? You're nothing. You've never worked outside the home!" One could substitute a colon in place of the period depending on how one interpreted Carole's segue.

Vis-à-vis Scary Island: the premise that Bethenny initially noticed nothing out of the ordinary when her seminal confrontation with Kelly erupted is belied by the footage of her victory dance to Alex and Ramona in my opinion and mutually exclusive with the narrative in which she and her cohort were legitimately in fear for their personal safety.

Bethenny started cheering "fuck you! fuck you! I told you!" because evidence of a very real neurochemical and/or emotional disturbance was clear as day. Her point was see, I told you she was nuts and here's the undeniable proof. Were Kelly behaving as she normally did, there would have been no definitive, undeniable indication that something was horribly amiss.

And Bethenny expressed no fear when Sonja was, for the one and only time, acting as the voice of reason. She was triumphantly giggling about and ridiculing her mentally unraveling coworker to her other two coworkers. (When did this trio go dancing by themselves?)

If this latest episode has instructed me on any point, it's that Bethenny is quite indulgent with the retcon and spin. She and Carole alike were practically contradicting themselves from one breath to the next in a transparent and clumsy effort to clean up all the shit with which they'd embarrassed themselves.

A mere twelve hours or so after insisting that getting called a 'slut' was 'kind of hot,' (which begs the question why being age-shamed and/or labeled a pedophile isn't even 'hotter'), Carole was doing her lazy 180 to "if you ever said any of those things to me, I'd never speak to you again."

In that context and the general nonsense of groupthink that subsumes almost all of these casts (remember the demented account of Shannon's gaslight that Heather and Tamra tried to peddled on camera immediately after Tamra had repeatedly assaulted Shannon in front of those very same cameras? Or, to make another The Apprentice reference, does anyone else recall when the women's team ganged up on the only black participant during the second season - I think her name was Stacie J - and breathlessly reported that watching her play with a magic 8 ball was "one of the scariest moments" of their lives?), I personally don't trust that Bethenny felt any substantive fear.

Kelly was obviously in the throes of some sort of dissociative episode. It was almost certainly a liability issue for the network . . . because of what could have happened to Kelly.

Edited June 14, 2016 by lunastartron

[motorcitymom65]

6 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I don't remember Carole saying that women who don't work outside the home are nothings but....IMO she implied that women who didn't work outside the home are not as...I don't have the right word...as worldly, knowing , sophisticated, knowledgeable, superior...none of them exactly fit what I got from that statement.  Bottom line it was a put down.  It was like a person who isn't out there making a personal income doesn't know what the real world is about.  Note to Carole:  Taking care of a child or children knows more about the 'real' world than any professional.  People are always giving credo's to teachers.  Well, stay at home parents do that and a lot more.  Spend 24/7 with a child.  It's exhausting.  It's also the most rewarding thing you can do.

I've given Jules a lot of flack about her not having a nanny.  Yes Jules, it's hard.  But you also work it out.  Just like anyone who has a profession.  You can take showers.  You do it when they nap.  You do it when they're at preschool.  You do it and take them in the shower with you.  You do it while placing them in the carrier and place it outside the shower.  It's hard but you  do it.  You're not freaking helpless.  I don't know if Jules has ever had a job before children.  If she did, I don't think she ever was someone who got it done.  Making coffee at age thirty something is an accomplishment?  WTF.

It wasn't a nice thing to say, but to be fair, Aviva was spewing all kinds of venom at her. Telling her that nobody had wanted "What Remains", that she knew for a fact that Carole didn't write it, asking her "who do you think you are, Stephen King"? She was being so nasty. So yes, after that Carole said "what do you know about it, you'd never even worked outside the home". Aviva was making it sound like Carole had never actually accomplished anything, saying that she got where she was simply because of her family connections. And the thing was, Aviva wasn't someone who stayed at home and took care of her kids. At the reunion she tried to say that she only had one live-in Nanny, while the others looked on incredulous because they said she had 2 nannies and a housekeeper. She was not someone who was exhausted by the demands of child rearing. 

[AnnaMayWong]

* lunastartron, that behavior decidedly marked the end of my viewing The Apprentice. I found THAT act of faux terror leading to malicious undermining of character, purposely designed fallacies, and other related actions perpetuated by those contestants [and Trump] upon Stacie J. more than despicable. It was astounding, actually. *  (all should have been appalled. it was blatant...)

Edited June 14, 2016 by BookElitist
curbing my expressions of the myriad of emotions evoked by those recollections.

[AnnaMayWong]

...And, now, back to our regularly scheduled analyses, opinions, and snark of THE REAL [Partial] HOUSEWIVES of NEW YORK.

[SnarkKitty]

On 6/12/2016 at 3:56 PM, bravofan27 said:

A DWI isn't defining and shouldn't mean Sonja can't sell liquor. She isn't calling it DWI girl. Plenty of people drink and don't drive, tipsy girl should be more a warning to not drive, IMO. In any case, I'm not into throwing mistakes in people's faces and then telling them they can't do stuff because of their past mistakes. Sonja can do whatever she wants. I think the fact she may have a drinking problem is more concerning than a past DWI in terms of endorsing liquor. But that is her own issue. I really don't care when I buy wine the backstory of the people in the company. I just care if it's a good value and tastes good. 

You're defending Sonja when my issue was with the stupidity and shortsightedness of the business owners.

Yes Sonja can do whatever she wants. Except when she can't. Which is why she was arrested. She's did something idiotic, which was to drink alcohol to excess, and then got her dumb, selfish ass behind the wheels of a car. And then drove on a public road. And that's just the time she was caught. I haven't heard a good argument yet as to why that's okay. So yeah I'll throw that particular mistake in her face all day every day and twice on Sundays. 

But since this was and is about the business owners decision ... lots of people do care about the backstories, and when you want to capture the biggest market, you would be wise to avoid someone with such a troublesome past with your product. Like, maybe don't have Michael Vicks endorse your chew toys. 

[halkatla]

On 13.6.2016 at 3:43 AM, lunastartron said:

Aviva brought the crazy. She had the pervy Dad and the wooden leg. It would have been epic.

I really miss Aviva now when I think about it. And the thought of Bethenny and pervy dad having a perv-off over dinner at Dorinda´s is something that should have gone down in tv/world history.

[Midnight Cheese]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Not everyone who works together gets along.

Carole has very good reasons to not want to film with Luann.

Bethenny has very good reasons to not want to film with Sonja.

I still don't get Ramona's deal though.  How and why has she turned on Sonja so thoroughly?  What is going on there?  No, I don't believe it's to be on "Bethenny's good side."  Ramona has never cared about that, and why would she start now?  She's another one who is golden for this show, unpredictable, and likely to do almost anything, Bravo definitely wants to keep her.  She doesn't need Bethenny's good will to have a job or scenes, that's just crazy.  So something else is going on there.

Maybe they quarreled over the Shyster?  Ramona was being conned by him just last year, so perhaps it was Sonja refusing to listen to sense?  It has to be more though.  There was a ring of truth to Ramona saying that she didn't want to be associated with the easy sex and lots of drinking, at least truthful for the mess that is Ramona.  Still, that's a pretty huge break, possibly the biggest on any show that doesn't involve sisters.  They were close friends for years, not just for the show.  Maybe familiarity did birth contempt.  Before they mostly socialized as married couple, or at least one still married woman.  Now that they are both single it changed their dynamic somehow?

My pet theory is that Ramona was very glad to see Sonja fall from her perch as the wife of a seriously wealthy man from a true, old-money New York City family.  Ramona has a materialistic, ignorant person's definition of what's worthy of her - she needs gilt and glitz, and you see it in the satin dresses, cheap fucking jewelry, extensions, tits, eye job, resurfaced face, drinking, etc.  But she was quick with her fingers to look up home values in the Berkshires, and to brag on air about 'properties and cash' after being humiliated (yay!) by Mario. 

I have no doubt that it chapped her aerobicized ass that another girl landed private island money, even if only through marriage to a billion years old scion of a billionaire-type family.  I don't doubt she wants Avery to be independent.  I also don't doubt that her own 'acumen' was padded by serious gifts by her dad and the Singers to start her overstock business.  I also think Sonja was probably an unbearable bitch every now and again when she was a Morgan, and that Ramona has been saving those resentments.  In terms of her desire for revenge and memory, however faulty, she is quite like Beastenny. 

Ramona's a terrible person and will always be one, and is gonna be forever alone.  Yay!

[zoeysmom]

Once again it is Ramona starting things and quite proud of it.  Sonja in her vodka is befuddled as she heard Carole say she is on the phone every other day with her co-writer.  Here is the clip of the Carole/Aviva conversation:  http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/videos/bookgate-aviva-drescher-versus-carole-radziwill  When Carole is angry she makes the "everybody, nobody" "all, none" "always, never" arguments.  She did it with Luann when they were telling Luann that women don't want to introduce Luann to their men.  So very quickly on the show, it will come out Luann is engaged, does that lift the "no men around Luann" thought process? 

[ElDosEquis]

9 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

Once again it is Ramona starting things and quite proud of it.  Sonja in her vodka is befuddled as she heard Carole say she is on the phone every other day with her co-writer.  Here is the clip of the Carole/Aviva conversation:  http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/videos/bookgate-aviva-drescher-versus-carole-radziwill  When Carole is angry she makes the "everybody, nobody" "all, none" "always, never" arguments.  She did it with Luann when they were telling Luann that women don't want to introduce Luann to their men.  So very quickly on the show, it will come out Luann is engaged, does that lift the "no men around Luann" thought process? 

That "no men around XXXXX" rule makes me laugh.

IF you have ANY questions about the strength of your relationship - can't bring your SO to events because you fear them being around your pals - YOU have some problems.

[ElDosEquis]

1 hour ago, Midnight Cheese said:

 

 

Ramona's a terrible person and will always be one, and is gonna be forever alone.  Yay!

That is a terrible thing to say.

And I agree 100%

As a guy, I do that piggy thing and wonder what each woman/housewife is like, in bed. ( having a good imagination makes it an experience)

I imagine that Ramona would make a man jump thru hoops if he wanted to take a trip around the bases?

I can't see any kind of intimacy with her being spontaneous or warm - I'd imagine it as a mechanical, Wham, Bam, Thank You. -And I'd be afraid if the Ramonster DIDN'T have an orgasm...What is the female equivalent of 'blue balls'? And is it dangerous?

[ryebread]

Ugh.  Watching Carole say that again in the video, "What are you?  You're a nothing. You've never had a job outside the home."  Just, ugh. I understand she was aggravated by Aviva.  Who wouldn't be. But damn, Writer Girl, use better words.   

[ElDosEquis]

Re the photo of Coco taking a shit?

That grass is probably a square of sod that Ramona bought and put inside her house, to give the illusion that Coco indeed, is capable of taking a dump on any surface.

[ElDosEquis]

12 minutes ago, ryebread said:

Ugh.  Watching Carole say that again in the video, "What are you?  You're a nothing. You've never had a job outside the home."  Just, ugh. I understand she was aggravated by Aviva.  Who wouldn't be. But damn, Writer Girl, use better words.   

The more I think about it, the more I doubt that Carole DID write a book - all on her lonesome?

Writing is hard, you need a sharp pencil, a little wit and drive. Writing for TV/radio/ads/essays/news stories/short stories and novels all are the same animal - but with different needs. Writers are just as different.

Carole doesn't have the 'personality' to be a creative writer - she's a witness, a transcriber. - nothing more. People 'sound' better after they have a chance to spell check their work?

[quaintirene]

Watching Bethenny take a buzz-saw to Luann made me wonder what Andy Cohen had said to her before filming started and how bad the ratings have been on previous seasons.  Because that diatribe looked like upping the ante to get things going.  As did Dorinda's banning of Sonja.  I didn't think either of these two things were  authentic.  In fact I could see Bethenny and Luann getting together beforehand and choreographing the whole damn' thing.  Yes, Luann looks like she's Bethenny's bitch.  But Luann also comes off looking like the kind of woman who can get any guy she wants and that's not a bad look.  Also I don't see Bethenny doing this stuff and not warning the opposition first.  She can be really unpleasant but she's not stupid.  She saw what that did to Jill Zarin.

[WireWrap]

2 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Once again it is Ramona starting things and quite proud of it.  Sonja in her vodka is befuddled as she heard Carole say she is on the phone every other day with her co-writer.  Here is the clip of the Carole/Aviva conversation:  http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/videos/bookgate-aviva-drescher-versus-carole-radziwill  When Carole is angry she makes the "everybody, nobody" "all, none" "always, never" arguments.  She did it with Luann when they were telling Luann that women don't want to introduce Luann to their men.  So very quickly on the show, it will come out Luann is engaged, does that lift the "no men around Luann" thought process? 

I again noticed that Aviva is enjoying getting Carole upset, she enjoys it so much she has trouble keeping a smug smile off her face. As soon as Carole tries to say squat about Aviva's book, GW, publisher, Aviva interrupts her with another slam/accusation to up Carole's frustration/anger until Carole can't keep it together. She, Aviva, is good at it, I have to wonder why she never practiced Law as she is good at verbally attacking/eviscerating an opponent.   

[Trooper York]

Carole is a writer like Sonja is an entrepreneur.  It is really bullshit but they just play one on TV.

Please stop this extraneous discussion about Luann and Bethenny. Let's get back to bashing Carole.

That is what these threads are for after all. Let's get with the program.

[lunastartron]

1 hour ago, WireWrap said:

I again noticed that Aviva is enjoying getting Carole upset, she enjoys it so much she has trouble keeping a smug smile off her face. As soon as Carole tries to say squat about Aviva's book, GW, publisher, Aviva interrupts her with another slam/accusation to up Carole's frustration/anger until Carole can't keep it together. She, Aviva, is good at it, I have to wonder why she never practiced Law as she is good at verbally attacking/eviscerating an opponent.   

Which is exactly why Bethenny vs. Aviva needs to happen! B was losing her shit simply because she couldn't get LuAnn to become as worked up as she was; the Countess wasn't even landing any significant blows and couldn't come up with anything but the lame hairstyle observations.

Imagine how pyrotechnics if a combatant actually got in a few rhetorical rabbit hits.

[Trooper York]

As a guy the only two Housewives you would want to hang out with are Luann and Sonja. Luann looks like she would be a lot of fun. She is by far the best looking and natural of them all. Sonja would  be DTF but too wacky and troubled for a normal dude. 

Don't get me wrong. You can't trust Luann for a minute if she is out of your sight. But she is the only one any sane man would date.

[WireWrap]

18 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

Which is exactly why Bethenny vs. Aviva needs to happen! B was losing her shit simply because she couldn't get LuAnn to become as worked up as she was; the Countess wasn't even landing any significant blows and couldn't come up with anything but the lame hairstyle observations.

Imagine how pyrotechnics if a combatant actually got in a few rhetorical rabbit hits.

I don't want Aviva back as a FHW for a few reasons. The first being George, the guy makes my skin crawl like I am covered with biting/burning ants and maggots...YUCK (LOL). Second, I think Aviva lies to create storylines, her asthma/her multitude of phobias/ect. Third, I think Aviva will firmly crawl up Bethenny's behind, oust Carole from the top spot by attacking the Bethenny/Carole friendship just for the top anal spot for herself. Fourth, George!

I really don't think Aviva will go in on Bethenny like she did Carole because even she would fear getting on Andy's bad side again. Now, bringing her back as a FOH alongside JillZ as Luann/Sonja defenders may allow Aviva and Jill to go against special snowflake Bethenny. LOL

[ElDosEquis]

6 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

As a guy the only two Housewives you would want to hang out with are Luann and Sonja. Luann looks like she would be a lot of fun. She is by far the best looking and natural of them all. Sonja would  be DTF but too wacky and troubled for a normal dude. 

Don't get me wrong. You can't trust Luann for a minute if she is out of your sight. But she is the only one any sane man would date.

Lsu and Sonja probably have the Kama Sutra Bedside Companion and DVD on hand.

Beth knows it as 'that fuck book', Carole wants to write the descriptions for the pics, Dorinda is too drunk to read it, Jules asked the nanny to decipher it and Ramona has looked at it upside down and sideways - she STILL can't figure it out.

[Yours Truly]

1 hour ago, Trooper York said:

Carole is a writer like Sonja is an entrepreneur.  It is really bullshit but they just play one on TV.

Please stop this extraneous discussion about Luann and Bethenny. Let's get back to bashing Carole.

That is what these threads are for after all. Let's get with the program.

LOL, I would definitely love this to no end!!

I know it's been said that Carole does have a very impressive career behind her and I'm not one to take away from such a grand resume so I won't.

I don't doubt that Carole can intelligently participate and deliver a news story. I can believe that she was in the mix of this that and the other. I also believe that she did it well. I think she has a skill set that deserves the brilliant reputation she has up to this point.

First off the time on this show has completely started a new chapter of Princess Carole and what she's put on this show doesn't really reflect that life she left behind so there's that. Second, the skepticism over her abilities as an author are very very valid and shouldn't be something automatically accepted because she worked with Diane Sawyer or because she's got a nice size book of work in a different industry. Granted it can be assumed that those set of skill would transition nicely into the world of books but it's not exactly a definite although helpful I will admit. She's "proven" herself by writing an autobiography which actually only shifts so much from her previous experiences with journalism since she was again taking actual information and organizing it into enjoyable or interesting reading.

Basically, it's not surprising that her abilities as a creative author are a bit suspect to some and I don't think it's far fetched to think that there's something a bit off kilter with concept of "Carole Razdwill, Author Extraordinaire!"

Yeah, and I'm the Queen of England.

That work for ya Trooper?? ;-)

Edited June 14, 2016 by Yours Truly
for the life of me I can't spell her last name and don't care enough to look it up. LOL!

[teapot]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:51 PM, RedheadZombie said:

It has to be followed closely by Ramona and Sonja googling "white trash" after Aviva labelled them such.  One of my all time favorite moments across the four franchises I've watched!

"A hillbilly can be welcoming.  Welcome to my trailer!"-literally my favorite HW line of.  all.  time.

[Trooper York]

Hey anything works for me as long as we acknowledge that Carole is as bad as it gets. As bad as a ballerina with athletes foot. As bad as crotch rot. As bad as leprosy.

I could go on and on.

You see that problem is not that Carole has a great career behind her.....it is that she thinks she has a great behind.

Seriously lady. You are Rue MccLanahan from the Golden Girls. Sonja is Betty White. I don't know which one is Bea Arthur. Luann has the voice but Methenny has the bitchiness.

I hate  remakes. 

[RHJunkie]

3 hours ago, WireWrap said:

I again noticed that Aviva is enjoying getting Carole upset, she enjoys it so much she has trouble keeping a smug smile off her face. As soon as Carole tries to say squat about Aviva's book, GW, publisher, Aviva interrupts her with another slam/accusation to up Carole's frustration/anger until Carole can't keep it together. She, Aviva, is good at it, I have to wonder why she never practiced Law as she is good at verbally attacking/eviscerating an opponent.   

Judging by how Aviva has spoken about Carole, it seems that she thinks Carole acts above others and when you have that impression of someone, it can be amusing to see them squirm and get flustered. I think Aviva enjoyed pushing Carole's buttons because she just didn't like her, for right or wrong reasons that's just how it comes across to me.

[ZaldamoWilder]

1 hour ago, Trooper York said:

Hey anything works for me as long as we acknowledge that Carole is as bad as it gets. As bad as a ballerina with athletes foot. As bad as crotch rot. As bad as leprosy.

I could go on and on.

You see that problem is not that Carole has a great career behind her.....it is that she thinks she has a great behind.

Seriously lady. You are Rue MccLanahan from the Golden Girls. Sonja is Betty White. I don't know which one is Bea Arthur. Luann has the voice but Methenny has the bitchiness.

I hate  remakes. 

LMAO!!!  Luann gets my vote for Bea.  What with getting away with murder and saying anything, Beth seems more like Sophia to me.

[Umbelina]

I thought Aviva was as phony and pretentious as they come.  Every scene was calculated, she'd say anything to stay on the show, do anything, didn't matter if it was true of she believed it, nothing mattered except keeping that job.  Her father was completely disgusting.  I don't want to hear about her 297864 phobias.  I don't want to listen to her claim they should have purchased a banner and thrown her a party because she showed up.

I think she calculated out what outrageous things she could say to her coworkers to cause fireworks, and then performed her own script (badly.)  This was constant behavior and never struck me as one bit "real."  Throwing the leg?  Oh please woman, take a seat.

All of the others have those scripted moments as well, Ramona and Mario seduction scene?  gag  Set up scenes to promote various businesses?  yawn, but very common across the franchise.  It happens with every "wife" on every show that some things are obvious set ups.  It's the price we pay by watching, but they are never "gold" moments.  They are roll-your-eyes moments.

The problem with Aviva is that ALL of her moments were like that, calculated and then acted.  (That's also the problem with the entire cast of BH last season.)

We watch this for the occasional moments that happen organically.  We don't watch for happy sleepovers, or completely drama free trips, or a nice little luncheon with tea where everyone gets along.

That's why Ramona will have a job as long as she wants it.  In spite of her obviously personally-scripted plans (the breakdown in the forest, the plane picking her up from the Berkshires for example)  she almost always causes chaos that is real among her fellow wives.  Carole laughing at her con, or Heather's reactions.  She's got the spontaneity thing going mixed in with the set ups. 

Aviva never had that, she was as fake as fake can be.  SO glad she's gone, and her dirty disgusting father with her.

[Yours Truly]

22 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

Judging by how Aviva has spoken about Carole, it seems that she thinks Carole acts above others and when you have that impression of someone, it can be amusing to see them squirm and get flustered. I think Aviva enjoyed pushing Carole's buttons because she just didn't like her, for right or wrong reasons that's just how it comes across to me.

I agree with this. I also think that the dislike really stemmed from that brutal meeting where Aviva was discussing her book with Carole. I mean that's when a big chunk of my dislike for Carole started although the way she was always going on and on about Lu in the beginning put my radar up the fact that she backed off and started behaving better settled my dislike a bit, then the whole thing with Aviva.

It basically proved that Carole is a rather dismissive snob that decides on a whim whether or not you're worthy of validation from her. The part that bothers me so about her is that she really believes that its her place to validate someone or something and if she doesn't then it's silly for other to do so and then the eyerolls commence.  That is what really rubs me the wrong way about her. She makes snap judgements, pish poshes on this or that, is so very condescending over things and it's one thing to have an opinion on something. It's a free country. It's the way, from day one, she seems to tack on this vibe of something not being important or relevant or anything of substance or worth comment. Problem is this vibe comes out a lot and over a lot of things and after a while it just seems comical cause I mean damn not everything needs to be imbued with her forced blase', hipster, too cool for school spin. Her aloofness is just ridiculous and overplayed. Zero fucks isn't a status dahling but to see her in action you would think it is. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Yours Truly

[CriticalMass]

I suggest Beth move to "Live With..." let Kelly and Beth duke it out for star billing. Andy's misogyny will never fit in with mornings, Beth leaves RHNY and we can back to a much better show, IMHO, sans Beth. Kelly and Beth can talk about diets (never eat), raising kids in private schools in the urban environment and eventually GMA can swallow "Live With Beth & Kelly" (Beth will win, she'll get dirty, not just passively aggressively carry books to convey her message). 

[nexxie]

All I can say is it's amazing that Batshit Crazy Bethenny keeps finding new boyfriends - perhaps they've never seen these shows or they're in it for money.