S06.E07: The Broken Man

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's not like they were there to see the courtship.  It's probably highly unusual for a foreign woman to be a battlefield nurse, and for all they know it was her plan to seduce some highborn lord in a moment of weakness.  She just happened to snag the King himself, a naive kid who really, really should have known better. 

The Northerners don't seem overly fond of anyone South of the Neck,  so they really wouldn't like someone from a different continent.

Yeah, she was a camp follower to all appearances. It's unusual for anyone to be a "battlefield nurse." She did seduce Robb, couldn't throw off her clothes and get on top of him fast enough, so she was definitely not a virgin. In the Westerosi imagination that only leaves two possibilities: married, or whore.

[The Mormegil]

8 minutes ago, nachomama said:

I could remember wrong but I don't think he gave away the Hound's return. He said his character bring someone back and most people speculated either Jon Snow or Lady Stoneheart (even Stannis and Mance Rayder). There were many options as to who he brought back. They also got pissed when he yelled at the fans for being stupid and said he was only there for an episode or 2.

He initially just said he was responsible for bringing a character back but later on in a radio interview he was asked if the character was Jon Snow or the Hound and he said the Hound.

Edited June 6, 2016 by The Mormegil

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 

That might also explain where she got all that darned money.  That's what really caught my husband's attention in the opening scenes with Arya.  Since when does she have bags of gold at her disposal?  

This is a really good point. I thought she seemed very different. Why, I wonder, is A Man so devoted to A Girl?

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Are they even mentioning Rickon in their sales pitch?

They are, but the fact they're not leading with is subtext for what Jon and Sansa probably know deep down but don't want to say aloud because they've already lost so much...

The Blackfish's remarks that the Freys would kill Edmure no matter what he does foreshadows it. Deep down Jon and Sansa both know there's no way a monster like Ramsey will ever let Rickon live. Even if they had fifty thousand men they could not breach the walls of Winterfell before Ramsey (or someone on his orders) cuts Rickon's throat and running away or surrendering to Ramsey won't save their brother either.

I think they both know this deep down and know the logical play is to just grab the couple thousand Wildlings and the boats that carried them out of Hardhome and make for someplace far far from the North and White Walkers and all the other miseries they've face. But they have to fight and pretend Rickon can be rescued because they wouldn't be able to live with themselves if they just left him to die. At least by making the stand they can let Rickon know his family cares enough to fight for him, no matter how hopeless the fight.

That's why they're not leading with "Let's rescue the True King in the North from Ramsey the Usurper." Everyone knows that will never happen, they just can't bring themselves to say it... because that makes it real.

[J----av]

17 hours ago, aslightjump said:

I am unsure why Sansa was so needlessly bitchy. Like sure, she's had a rough few days and been told she's not a Stark a few times and that's got to be rough, and I know she's tense but sweetie, none of that is Davos' fault. Take a breather.

And I'm a huge Sansa fan. But that bugged the hell out of me. Still a teenager.

 Have you missed the first 5 seasons? Just because she has been through allot, doesn't mean she is going to completely change all her personality traits. Sansa has always been needlessly bitchy and always will be, just like her sister Arya will always be feisty

Edited June 6, 2016 by J----av

[Gertrude]

43 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

The Mormonts are kind of slacking in the children producing department in comparison to families like the Starks, Greyjoys, Tyrells, Lannisters, etc.

Slacking in the male child producing department, perhaps. There are many delightful she-bears.

[hertolo]

Sigh, I was so looking forward to seeing Septon Meribalds Speech on screen... Alas, it wasn't to be. The story we got instead is deeply depressing, it kinda reminds of the Ellaria-Switcheroo. It does seem like all the pacifist or rational voices in the show world get stomped out in favour of more action related storylines. Again I am dissapointed with the show - especially fresh with the comparison to the newly released Aeron chapter in mind... I do get that it makes sense for the inner logic of the show and the episode was good, I just sorely miss Septon Meribalds Speech which can be seen as the center point of the whole series carrying the message of the "human mind in combat with itself". After all, even the episode is named after the speech. (just watched the episode)

[Haleth]

In a show that features dragons and zombies it's not impossible to handwave that Arya survives being repeatedly stabbed in the gut.  I'm taking it at face value (no pun intended) until told otherwise.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Couple of things.

I find it interesting that Jon and Sansa haven't mentioned House Reed. You have to wonder if he'll make an appearance helping the Vale army through the Neck and confirming a certain theory.

Mel should have been the reason why houses were hesitant to support Jon. Her spouting off lines about Jon being a savior and R'hllor chosen would make more sense than what we got.

Is anyone else wondering when Sansa might find out about Jon being brought back to life ? I don't think she knows, thats pretty big news.

I think she learned it at CB, and it was stated in this episode by Tormond and Sansa was there behind Jon.

They probably had a doubting tomasina moment off screen.

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the books Cersei's role in Sansa's story was a cautionary tale, and to supply notions that she rejects.  The climax of their interactions, at the Blackwater, sees Sansa reject Cersei's belief in rule by fear, and then go on to rally the ladies in the holdfast when Cersei herself runs away because she can't be bothered to properly perform the role of a noble lady.

I had actually forgotten about this, but yes, you're right. I still think she picks up some Cersei-isms, however.

Spoiler

And given her Winds of Winter chapter, there are definite signs that Book Sansa is on that path to becoming Cersei. Or at least picking up some of her traits anyway.

[gwhh]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, since it was a rose, I'd take it to mean, "still team Tyrell here."

I through it was a map to the dungeons.  

Edited June 7, 2016 by gwhh

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Are they even mentioning Rickon in their sales pitch?  No one seems to care that Jon should be seen as a Night's Watch deserter and/or a corpse reanimated through foreign magic, and anyone loyal to the Starks should be spurred into action by having the King in the North (sorry Bran) rotting in a dungeon. 

LF will deliver but he might wait for Jon's army to whittle things down a bit - it'll make things easier for the Vale forces.  By the time that's done the majority of the North's fighting men will be toast thanks to Robb's campaigns, the Red Wedding, and the upcoming fight.  They won't have the strength to stop LF from becoming Warden of the North.

They have, but if you paid attention, it actually came off as a selfish reason, the rest of their bannermen lost as much if not more then house Stark, Davos knew this and steered the reason to survival of the living over the dead.

Both Starks came off as either inept or entitled along with individual strikes against them. 

[SeanC]

20 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I had actually forgotten about this, but yes, you're right. I still think she picks up some Cersei-isms, however.

  Hide contents

And given her Winds of Winter chapter, there are definite signs that Book Sansa is on that path to becoming Cersei. Or at least picking up some of her traits anyway.

Spoiler

What of Cersei do you see in Alayne I?

[Minneapple]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

  Hide contents

What of Cersei do you see in Alayne I?

Spoiler

In her Winds of Winter chapter, she's learning to be clever and use her feminine wiles to manipulate men. She finds Harry the Heir repulsive but because of The Plan, manipulates him into asking her for a dance. She then puts him off, pretending she already has a partner. She's learning to not cry so much, keep her feelings inside and school her face into a mask. Very Cersei-like. I think she exhibited some of these traits before her WoW chapter, but it's been so long since I read the damn books and I really don't feel like slogging through them again.

We should maybe move this discussion elsewhere as it's off-topic, though.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Minneapple

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

  Hide contents

In her Winds of Winter chapter, she's learning to be clever and use her feminine wiles to manipulate men. She finds Harry the Heir repulsive but because of The Plan, manipulates him into asking her for a dance. She then puts him off, pretending she already has a partner. She's learning to not cry so much, keep her feelings inside and school her face into a mask. Very Cersei-like. I think she exhibited some of these traits before her WoW chapter, but it's been so long since I read the damn books and I really don't feel like slogging through them again.

More teenager like to me, and more motherly to the young lord, and more LF like

as she learns he's buying up all the food supplies

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Slacking in the male child producing department, perhaps. There are many delightful she-bears.

In the books there are many delightful she-bears, as Maege, Alysane, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna are all alive. Only Dacey perished at the Red Wedding.

In the show it appears that Lyanna is Lady of Bear Island, not just its castellan, and the only surviving member of House Mormont, aside from Jorah. 

[lmsweb]

On rewatch, and after sleeping on it last night, I am really leaning towards the Arya getting stabbity-stabbed not being RealArya. There is no way that the Arya who went and got Needle and then damped the candle to sit in the dark and wait for the Waif to come is going to just stand on a bridge, gazing off into the sunset, about to break into song from a Disney movie. If it is A Man pretending to be Arya, he would be smart enough to continue the act even after getting out of the water, in case the Waif had another face on her and was watching.

Also: I am starting to think that the letter Sansa wrote is meant to lure Ramsay out from Winterfell and towards Moat Cailin. Sansa might be figuring she can get Ramsay to move his forces towards LF and the Vale knights, and she is intending for it to be intercepted by him. I will have to watch again but there was a line that sounded almost like a throwaway line where she or someone else comments about not being able to send a raven somewhere in case Ramsay gets it.

Edited June 7, 2016 by lmsweb

[Raachel2008]

7 hours ago, rubyred said:

 

Sansa's ineptitude at corralling the North reminded me forcibly, and unpleasantly, of her mother Catelyn, who was constantly hectoring people about supporting Starks/Tullys and even handwaved, to Karstark, the killing of his son so that she could barter to save her own kids. I hope she understands now that she needs to read the the room and have some empathy for the losses that the Stark bannermen have suffered, before she asks them to volunteer more lives.

[Alapaki]

4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Simply because the troupe didn't use those types of tricks in the performance Arya watched doesn't mean they don't have skills of fooling someone about what they're seeing.  I think it's likely there is significance about Arya's target.  Remember it is after all a target Jaqen assigned her.

I don't dispute what you say about Jaqen being involved.  We've seen him pull off many deceptive stunts over the seasons.  I suspected last week there was significance to Arya telling him she had selected the name Mercy.  It seemed to me she had asked him back at the fountain in the House of Black and White what he was doing and he told her he was giving the people mercy when he gave them the cups to drink.  Arya was merciful to Jaqen when he was locked up in the wagon in the fire.

I'd be interested to know where prisoner Jaqen was picked up and detained?  Kings Landing?  Leaving Kings Landing?  What was he doing away from the House of Black and White?  Has he ever given dancing lessons?

Jaqen being disguised as Arya on the bridge would be consistent with his telling the Waig "not to make it suffer", or whatever he said.

[Constantinople]

I'm disappointed that Yara pays the gold price for her whores.

Some Iron Islander she is.

[Raachel2008]

Quote

Sansa's ineptitude at corralling the North reminded me forcibly, and unpleasantly, of her mother Catelyn, who was constantly hectoring people about supporting Starks/Tullys and even handwaved, to Karstark, the killing of his son so that she could barter to save her own kids. I hope she understands now that she needs to read the the room and have some empathy for the losses that the Stark bannermen have suffered, before she asks them to volunteer more lives.

See, I wholehearted agree with you (stupid Catelyn), but the thing is that the show is failing at this, too. All we needed was a decent scene where Sansa and Jon deffended their cause with more than a simple 'the North Remembers' and the other Lords replied with their own "yes, we do remember, we remember that  that your mother and brother betrayed us, yes, we do remember that you Starks didn't honor your part of that 1,000 years alliance and treated us not like allies, but like servants (that was pretty clear with Karstark), yes, we do remember how your brother married a foreign breaking his promise/vows and unleashing a serie of events that culminated with the Red Wedding, yes, we do remember that our own were killed at the Red Wedding, and, by the way, we do remember Ramsay Bolton beating Stannis Baraethon's army, so, sorry, no, go fuck yourselves."

That would have made for greating writing and plot development; loyalty is earned, and Jon and Sansa have to earn the Lords' loyalty since Catelyn and Robb  fucked royally. But that would made the Northern Lords reasonable and D&D cannot afford this: they want to make Jon and Sansa the poor underdogs.

SIGH.

[Kelda Feegle]

My problem with the suggestion that Arya faked the blood etc is that if she is faking her own death she can't then go on the give the Waif the killing she deserves. 

[Pogojoco]

I'm not quite buying the Glover refusal or the hostility against Robb. The northern houses made him king because they wanted him to fight Lannisters over Ned. The Freys are the oath breakers and what happened at the Red Wedding (betraying the guest right) is considered unforgivable. They wouldn't ever think Robb deserved it because of who he married, they would think "those Freys are going to pay."

"It wasn't for murder the gods cursed the Rat Cook, or for serving the King's son in a pie... he killed a guest beneath his roof... that's something the gods can't forgive." Bran

The Boltons teamed up with the Lannisters (bad) and Roose Bolton put a sword through his king's heart (very bad- doing that screwed Jamie Lannister up for life) Oaths are a key thing.

These houses are Stark loyalists. These people got fired up when Ned was killed, yet don't want to fight the house that stabbed his son? That hold his other son captive? Just because they cleaned out some Greyjoys? 

I would accept the bit about not liking wildlings or maybe just being so depleted that they can't offer a lot, but not that whole speech to Sansa.

 

Yay Hound! Yay Ian McShane! Yay! Bronn! Yay Blackfish! 

[Constantinople]

Sansa's speeches need a little more iron fist in velvet glove.  Something like

 

Glover!

When my forces are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me!

We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!

Turn us away and we will burn you first!

Edited June 7, 2016 by Constantinople

[Gertrude]

24 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

The Freys are the oath breakers and what happened at the Red Wedding (betraying the guest right) is considered unforgivable. They wouldn't ever think Robb deserved it because of who he married, they would think "those Freys are going to pay."

We know that from the books, but honestly, the show has fallen down on the job in conveying this. I'm not surprised the Lords don't give a frack.

[Gertrude]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa's speeches need a little more iron fist in velvet glove.  Something like

 

Glover!

When my forces are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me!

We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!

Turn us away and we will burn you first!

A little Dany (take what is mine), a little Cersei (burn cities to the ground) and a little Littlefinger (scorn ME will you!?). The culmination of her "how to be a player" course work. (Dany's was a correspondence course).

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

So as awesome as the fierce Lady Mormont was, the other thing that bugged me in that scene was, apparently they are managing to trudge all over the North from ancestral home, to ancestral home (no small undertaking) which suggests at least some knowledge of where the hell they are bound, but neither had any idea about the sort of numbers they could expect from Bear Island.   

It made for a fairly amusing "We have won the loyalty and men of at least one Great House!  Honor still means something in this world! How many men can you offer?"  "Almost enough to raise a barn in a day! If you don't want a roof.  Or doors."   

Honor isn''t dead, but it is apparently woefully  understaffed.  Again, funny but also "Uh....how did guys not know that was going to be the answer?"  Did they walk in there expecting 2k but the losses Bear Island suffered are just staggering?  And again, you'd think that would have been news that spread.   So it was a great and amusing scene and also made poor Jon and Sansa look like amateurs.  In Sansa's case, that's sort of fitting, but it isn't in Jon's case.  

Well in fairness to Jon and Sansa, both of them have been a little out of touch with the goings on in the North after Robb's murder, and the slaughter of a good proportion of bannermen at the Red Wedding. Jon's been focused on the NW and the wildlings, and the real threat of the White Walkers and wights. Sansa's been kept prisoner living in fear in KL, then under close "supervision" in the Eyrie by the man who "saved" her and implicated her in murder, and then brutalized and locked in a tower by Ramsay. How much opportunity to receive military intelligence did she get? Enough to know how many Ramsay has, but there was a war that depleted the Northern houses' forces, which is of course, why Lady Lyanna is initially reluctant to risk any more of the small number she still has. 

I think that both Jon and Sansa were acting like amateurs, but for a very long time they truly could count on Northern loyalty to the Starks. and particularly to Ned. It seems Robb squandered the goodwill that Ned built and Jon and Sansa are paying the price.  How could they have known that? I think Davos thought the same and those two, so it's not just the two of them. So yeah, honor is nice and all but it works both ways. Glover was harsh, but I understand his position. 

[gwhh]

So does Yara like Only woman OR does she go both ways???  Is it common for iron born woman to go with woman only or to go both ways??

I like how she was so kind to her brother and than tried to make him a iron born again!!  The girl got a good heart that for sure!

I bet she going to have to kill her brother.  Since she can't fix him.  

I think the waif needs to spend last time beating up the blind and more time working on how to kill someone!  I do hope Arya is OK.  Would not all the gold she was carrying weigh her down and cause her to sink?  Is she penniless again?

And WHERE did she steal all that gold from? 

 

I don't go with this theory at all!  No way the faceless guy disguise himself as a 5 foot tall 18 year old girl!!  And no way the waif cant tell the difference between those two!!  The waif not that great! 

http://time.com/4358639/game-of-thrones-arya-stark-the-waif-theory/

Edited June 7, 2016 by gwhh

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's not like they were there to see the courtship.  It's probably highly unusual for a foreign woman to be a battlefield nurse, and for all they know it was her plan to seduce some highborn lord in a moment of weakness.  She just happened to snag the King himself, a naive kid who really, really should have known better. 

The Northerners don't seem overly fond of anyone South of the Neck,  so they really wouldn't like someone from a different continent.

I didn't care about Talisa or Jenya, the whole thing was just more Stark shirking of their real duty to their people, in order keep their precious personal honor, and thousands must die because of their "honor" crap.  I'm glad she was stabbed in the belly though, because at least it ended the red-herring of "Does Robb have a son out there?"  With Talisa it was the lame "but I'm in LUUUURRRRVVE!"  Ugh.

8 hours ago, The Mormegil said:

While watching I did take the Arya scenes at face value (though did find a couple of things a little off, mainly how out in the open she was being) but now I'm pretty sure we are looking at a fake out.

It just remains to be seen by whom.

Either Jaqan testing the Waif and possibly also giving Arya a way out (if he never intended her becoming No One) using Faceless Man Magic.

or Arya using Theatrical props and fake blood to get the League of Assassins to believe she is now dead. I'll have to look at the scene again to see if Arya's movement is what leads the Waif to go for a belly stabbing rather than a throat slitting or something else.

There is of course the scene

  Hide contents

from the Season 6 Trailer of Arya jumping off a roof to consider, that's not happening anytime soon if the stabbing was real (or Arya was really Arya) 

I just picked this one randomly, but I agree that the one stabbed was probably not Arya.  It explains "her" odd behavior, and no Needle too perfectly.  I think the new Face/death will be the waif for giving someone a gut wound when she was told "no suffering."  Yeah, yeah there is enough magic around to heal 978003 wounds like that, and we did have the doctor/genital warts scene, but it not being Arya at all just makes more sense.

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Yeah, she was a camp follower to all appearances. It's unusual for anyone to be a "battlefield nurse." She did seduce Robb, couldn't throw off her clothes and get on top of him fast enough, so she was definitely not a virgin. In the Westerosi imagination that only leaves two possibilities: married, or whore.

That storyline was so stupid, even more stupid than the stupid one in the books.

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

We know that from the books, but honestly, the show has fallen down on the job in conveying this. I'm not surprised the Lords don't give a frack.

Well, would you join the idiot Starks?  Hasn't everyone lost enough men for their damn honor?  Since Bran now has the "mark" that apparently erases ancient protective magic and is headed for the wall, their reign of terror will probably continue and even worse will be unleashed on the North.  Maybe "The North Remembers!" too damn much?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Umbelina
o

[kittykat]

39 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I didn't care about Talisa or Jenya, the whole thing was just more Stark shirking of their real duty to their people, in order keep their precious personal honor, and thousands must die because of their "honor" crap.  I'm glad she was stabbed in the belly though, because at least it ended the red-herring of "Does Robb have a son out there?"  With Talisa it was the lame "but I'm in LUUUURRRRVVE!" Ugh

I wasn't a Talisa hater as much as others but I didn't read the books until between seasons 2 and 3.  That said I would've preferred the Jeyne Westerling angle.  But D&D have been about the BIG LOVE STORY! Robb lurrrrves Talisa, Jaime lurrrrrrvvvves Cersei (that preview next week, arrrrrrrgggggh!),  Tormund luuuurrrvvves Brienne (ok guys we'll give you that one ;-) ) 

Anyway, while the Freys screwed up by violating the guest right, the Northern lords are salty after years of losing lives to Stark honor.  Should they be outraged about Roose's betrayal?  Absolutely.  Should they be concerned about the White walkers?  Hell yeah they should.  Should they set aside their old prejudices concerning the Wildlings?  Yes they should but those opinions aren't going to change overnight.  

It sucks for Team Stark that for once they are trying to do the right thing and unite people and raise awareness about the REAL war.  But when they hide behind the old honor card that's where they lose their argument with these old lords.  Jon and Sansa aren't the sharpest tools in terms of diplomacy but they're going by how they were raised.  It was an absolute in their life that despite all they have been through that the north would remember and the Stark name was enough to rally these people and they're getting a hard lesson that the North Remembers, and they're kind of resentful.

Don't get me wrong I want them to win.  And obviously D&D are setting them up as the underdogs so that their win will be that much more triumphant but they need more of an argument besides "but...we're Starks."

Edited June 7, 2016 by kittykat
Autocorrect feels the need to add unwanted apostrophes.

[gwhh]

I'd magic can bring people back to life and other stuff like that. Can we use magic to bring back grey joy man parts?   

[patchwork]

In the books Robb made a stupid decision but it was an honourable one in marrying Jeyne, very Stark like and the Northerners could respect it even though it meant losing the Freys support. If it had happened with one of their daughters that's the outcome they would want so the vibe is "bloody stupid but the boy did the right thing". In a way marrying Jeyne endears Robb more to the North because he was honourable even though it cost him a lot. In the show however Rob married a camp follower just because that's what he wanted to do and a lot of people died because of it, the north remembers that. 

And I don't mind, Talisa is what we got instead of Jeyne so I don't mind that the consequences of that decision are affecting Jon and Sansa's recruitment drive what I mind is the show making them carry the idiot ball because it's an easy way to make their plot work. They've been out of touch, this isn't a natural fit for either of them but they're coming across like they've never even spoken about how they're going to get this done and it seems to be because they want Sansa back with Littlefinger. 

I assume there's a book moment they want to use even if it makes no sense in show just like Shae's testimony. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by patchwork

[Oscirus]

Sorry folks, but unless they plan on introducing shape shifting faceless men this late in the game, then that ain't Jaquen. Besides why would he risk death to himself to prove a point?

Here's my problem with the whole Jon pitch. Ignoring the Starks and their uncanny ability to destroy numerous Northern lives with their stupid decisions, how is anybody supposed to take the White Walker threat seriously when Jon isn't?  What the houses should be asking is: why the hell did you break your vows when the wall is the first line of defense?  We're supposed to trust you with our lives when you can't even keep your word?

From an audience standpoint, how am I supposed to get behind Jon when the only reason that he's even going to war is to save his brother? Don't get me wrong, it would be tragic if something happened to Rickon, but at the same time, it's selfish. Especially when we just saw that he was willing to ignore the white walker threat to go hide somewhere. If the only reason why I'm rooting for Jon is because Ramsey is evil, then that's problematic since Ramsey will likely be gone after this season.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Oscirus

[aslightjump]

11 hours ago, J----av said:

 Have you missed the first 5 seasons? Just because she has been through allot, doesn't mean she is going to completely change all her personality traits. Sansa has always been needlessly bitchy and always will be, just like her sister Arya will always be feisty

Except...no? After the first season when she was thirteen, Sansa has moments of being cruel under stress, like when she bit Shae's head off after some talk with Cersei, but generally Sansa's pretty normal. Sansa was bitchy to Arya but Arya gave as good as she got, and Sansa was rude to her father after Ned had to kill Lady. But 'always needlessly bitchy' is not a trait I would apply to Sansa. She was a friend to Shae, nice to Tyrion when she didn't have to be, courteous to the Hound even when he intentionally frightened her, she helped the ladies in Blackwater, she apparently forgave Theon, ever polite to the Tyrells. There's more evidence of Sansa's compassion than there is her bitchiness. In fact, this was the first episode this season where I was like "whoa, reign it in, Sansa." (adding to the acting debate, I think Sophie's a little better than Isaac and a little worse than Maisie and they're all very talented. She was quite charming as Jean in X-Men Apocalypse and I totally bought that she could kill me with her mind.)

The Arya stabbing scene had such a dream like quality to it my sister still isn't convinced it actually happened.

Unpopular opinion, but the Hound scenes were boring. After a season and a half of listening to High Sparrow give weekly lectures on how to live life, I did not need to hear another guy give his own version. Necessary, but boring. 

[Macbeth]

The biggest problem with Jon's attempt at recruitment of the northern families is that the Wildings are also soldiers in his army.  They have been a real threat to the northern families for generations and they have had to actually deal with them unlike Randall's father.  I imagine this would be a no go for many families.

He couldn't even convince the Night's Watch that it was better to save the Wildings instead of needing to fight them when they were dead.  People who actually had first hand experience with the Wights.  In the heart of a battle he is a good and brave leader and people will follow him, but convincing people of anything else???

When the Wildings were let through the Wall, Jon should have immediately sent ravens to every northern family, explaining what was happening.  Instead he was brooding and getting assassinated.

Besides being killed by the NW, he almost got killed at Hardhome when he was explaining to the Wildings that they could trust him.  Someone asked  what happened to Mance and Jon admitted he shot him in the heart - without explaining the extenuating circumstances that it was an act of mercy as Stannis was having him burned to death.

[WebosFritos]

If Littlefinger is the one who helps defeat Ramsay with the Vale army, I'm sure the North will regret it deeply. I hope Sansa was writing to someone else but I doubt it.

All the Northern Lords who are blaming Robb for the Red Wedding are really falling for the Frey's propaganda, aren't they? You could blame Robb for losing the war by marrying Talisa and trusting that Walder Frey would accept his apologies and his gift of Riverrun but he didn't lose the war, he was butchered along with the Northern army while they were unarmed. And as the Blackfish pointed out to Jaime, the war is still going on and will get even worse once the White Walkers get there.

20 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Something very clearly went wrong with the editing or script choices for Arya's story.  Last we saw her, she was crouched, awaiting the attack in the dark.  This episode she's throwing around bags of money in the open and the Waif got to her as she was, quite fucking literally sightseeing (girlfriend was gazing at a view, for goodness sake).  Wuh?

Yes, I don't understand what's going on with Arya. Her crouching in the dark and then walking the streets in the open doesn't make sense. Something is going on and that would explain why she isn't dead at the bottom of the water after getting stabbed repeatedly.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Here's my problem with the whole Jon pitch. Ignoring the Starks and their uncanny ability to destroy numerous Northern lives with their stupid decisions, how is anybody supposed to take the White Walker threat seriously when Jon isn't?  What the houses should be asking is: why the hell did you break your vows when the wall is the first line of defense?  We're supposed to trust you with our lives when you can't even keep your word?

From an audience standpoint, how am I supposed to get behind Jon when the only reason that he's even going to war is to save his brother? Don't get me wrong, it would be tragic if something happened to Rickon, but at the same time, it's selfish. Especially when we just saw that he was willing to ignore the white walker threat to go hide somewhere. If the only reason why I'm rooting for Jon is because Ramsey is evil, then that's problematic since Ramsey will likely be gone after this season.

Why would they care about Jon deserting the Watch when they clearly haven't cared about them for years? They only send thieves and rapists to the Wall and they clearly don't think the threat of the White Walkers is real. Mormont was already trying to warn them in the first season and they didn't listen. What's funny is they seem to be scared of the wildlings but they still didn't bother sending in real reinforcements, even though they've been raiding the North for thousands of years. The only man who seemed to care about the Night's Watch's vows was Ned but he's dead. And while Jon did consider abandoning the fight for a moment, what he's doing right now is for the benefit of the Seven Kingdoms. He's not trying to rally the North just to rescue Rickon and sail off to Essos. Had he stayed at the Wall, he would have died along with Edd and the few men who maybe would have stayed behind when the White Walkers finally got through. The Night's Watch was never going to stop them in their current state even with the help of the free folk.

[Chris24601]

22 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

He's not trying to rally the North just to rescue Rickon and sail off to Essos.

He should though... though I say they should set up a Free Folk colony on Sotheros or one of the Summer Isles (basically what Sundaland was during the last Ice Age). He should just assemble a team of Twenty Good Free Folk to commando raid Winterfell and get Rickon out, then take the Free Folk* and leave the horrible people of Westeros to freeze or burn while they find a tropical resort somewhere and get over their collective PTSD.

The fact that Jon and Sansa are instead staying in a god-forsaken land that is apparently fine with Ramsey Bolton as a ruler because someone needs to unite them against the REAL threat is why, despite being occasionally denser than a field stone, Jon and Sansa are heroes in the story.

* I don't remember quite when the transition occurred for me, but at some point the Wildlings went from threat to "The Only People Worth Saving." That is some quite fascinating story structure right there.

[Tikichick]

What if sitting duck/wounded Arya is either the actress Arya spared or the rival actress?

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

What if sitting duck/wounded Arya is either the actress Arya spared or the rival actress?

How would that work in either case?

[benteen]

Quote

I assume there's a book moment they want to use even if it makes no sense in show just like Shae's testimony. 

Ah yes.  Let's do everything we can to turn Shae into a more likeable, sympathetic and less one-dimensional character only to ultimately have her behave in the exact same way in the book.  It's these kind of changes on D&D's part that frustrated me.

[Fishslap]

On 6/6/2016 at 4:00 AM, dizzyd said:

OMG, the fucking Hound is ALIVE!!!! Didn’t see that coming at all.

I knew our Marge was still in there and playing the long con.

Damn, Leanna Mormont is a firecracker, a smarter ruler than any of the Starks were at Winterfell.  I’m glad she called Sansa out on the technicality of not being a Stark by name, lucky Rickon is still alive and Davos the voice of reason.

Wow, Braavos is tough, not a soul to help Arya.

What do the Brotherhood have against the free folk?  At least I’m guessing that’s who massacred them.

That episode was too short.

I have thought that the Hound was alive all along because he's not done. He has to kill the Mountain. The Brotherhood are following the Lord of Light, so consequently the Septon who was hanged in this episode was considered a heretic for worshiping the Seven. They were not "free folk" but essentially Sparrows building a congregation. There are three religions and two groups of intolerant religious fanatics here, the Sparrows in KL and the Brotherhood and the red priests in the Riverlands and on the Wall..

Anyway I expect that the Hound will now show up and fight his brother in Cercei's trial by combat, as the champion of the Seven. He has obviously found God in some way here and is no longer the same guy. This sets him up nicely for being burned at the stake by the red priests of course, which is cruel but makes sense literary. The only thing he's afraid of is fire, so obviously that's how he will die.

[benteen]

BTW, excellent point by a previous poster on how Cersei is supposed to be descending into madness at this point but the show seems to be making her sound more sympathetic and reasonable than ever.

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Sorry folks, but unless they plan on introducing shape shifting faceless men this late in the game, then that ain't Jaquen. Besides why would he risk death to himself to prove a point?

The Faceless Man can shapeshift, can't they? It seems like they cut off just the front part of their victims' faces, but when they wear it the rest of their body shifts into the victim's original form. (For instance, when Arya steals the little girl's face to kill Meryn Trant, she has the girl's long, red hair when she's wearing it.) So it seems like a harvested face is less a highly realistic mask than a fetish object that creates a full-body glamor.

As to why he'd risk death, well . . . because he's No One. His own life is meaningless when weighed against rooting out a heretic in the service of the Many-Faced God.

What puzzles me is the logistics of how he'd mimic Arya in particular. Isn't the whole point that she'd need to be sacrificed and her body prepared for her face to be harvested? The show has always been loosey-gooseyer than the books when it comes to details like that (e.g., whether Bran needs to use a weirwood tree to see into the past), but it's spent two seasons showing us the Faceless Men's facial preparation rituals, so it's hard for me to imagine how they could fudge it this time.

[Fishslap]

3 hours ago, aslightjump said:

Except...no? After the first season when she was thirteen, Sansa has moments of being cruel under stress, like when she bit Shae's head off after some talk with Cersei, but generally Sansa's pretty normal. Sansa was bitchy to Arya but Arya gave as good as she got, and Sansa was rude to her father after Ned had to kill Lady. But 'always needlessly bitchy' is not a trait I would apply to Sansa. She was a friend to Shae, nice to Tyrion when she didn't have to be, courteous to the Hound even when he intentionally frightened her, she helped the ladies in Blackwater, she apparently forgave Theon, ever polite to the Tyrells. There's more evidence of Sansa's compassion than there is her bitchiness. In fact, this was the first episode this season where I was like "whoa, reign it in, Sansa." (adding to the acting debate, I think Sophie's a little better than Isaac and a little worse than Maisie and they're all very talented. She was quite charming as Jean in X-Men Apocalypse and I totally bought that she could kill me with her mind.)

The Arya stabbing scene had such a dream like quality to it my sister still isn't convinced it actually happened.

Unpopular opinion, but the Hound scenes were boring. After a season and a half of listening to High Sparrow give weekly lectures on how to live life, I did not need to hear another guy give his own version. Necessary, but boring. 

This is on the TV show though. Book Sansa was not the slightest bit nice to Tyrion.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

Book Sansa was not the slightest bit nice to Tyrion.

She was as nice to him as he deserved, given the situation.

[J----av]

4 hours ago, aslightjump said:

Except...no? After the first season when she was thirteen, Sansa has moments of being cruel under stress, like when she bit Shae's head off after some talk with Cersei, but generally Sansa's pretty normal. Sansa was bitchy to Arya but Arya gave as good as she got, and Sansa was rude to her father after Ned had to kill Lady. But 'always needlessly bitchy' is not a trait I would apply to Sansa. She was a friend to Shae, nice to Tyrion when she didn't have to be, courteous to the Hound even when he intentionally frightened her, she helped the ladies in Blackwater, she apparently forgave Theon, ever polite to the Tyrells. There's more evidence of Sansa's compassion than there is her bitchiness. In fact, this was the first episode this season where I was like "whoa, reign it in, Sansa." (adding to the acting debate, I think Sophie's a little better than Isaac and a little worse than Maisie and they're all very talented. She was quite charming as Jean in X-Men Apocalypse and I totally bought that she could kill me with her mind.)

The Arya stabbing scene had such a dream like quality to it my sister still isn't convinced it actually happened.

Unpopular opinion, but the Hound scenes were boring. After a season and a half of listening to High Sparrow give weekly lectures on how to live life, I did not need to hear another guy give his own version. Necessary, but boring. 

Yeah.... your clearly watching Sansa with rose tinted glasses. She's even worse in the books

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, J----av said:

Yeah.... your clearly watching Sansa with rose tinted glasses. She's even worse in the books

Sansa in the books is one of the most kindhearted people around, all things considered, after her illusions get shattered; and even before that she's capable of, e.g., extending genuine sympathy to the Hound even as he's insulting her to her face and threatening to kill her.

Edited June 7, 2016 by SeanC

[J----av]

1 hour ago, Fishslap said:

I have thought that the Hound was alive all along because he's not done. He has to kill the Mountain. The Brotherhood are following the Lord of Light, so consequently the Septon who was hanged in this episode was considered a heretic for worshiping the Seven. They were not "free folk" but essentially Sparrows building a congregation. There are three religions and two groups of intolerant religious fanatics here, the Sparrows in KL and the Brotherhood and the red priests in the Riverlands and on the Wall..

Anyway I expect that the Hound will now show up and fight his brother in Cercei's trial by combat, as the champion of the Seven. He has obviously found God in some way here and is no longer the same guy. This sets him up nicely for being burned at the stake by the red priests of course, which is cruel but makes sense literary. The only thing he's afraid of is fire, so obviously that's how he will die.

 Just like Oberyn had to kill the Mountain lol. Don't get your hopes up. People rarely get justice against those that wronged them

[GrailKing]

While I think it's a possibility that that letter may go to LF, I'm more inclined to the opposite; Sansa and Jon have their discussion, Sansa begs him to go to Lord Cerwyn

 

Boyce or Fletcher code names for Cerwyn and Manderly?

 

and Jon refuses,( he's heading into a suicide raid at this point) we then cut to Sansa writing the letter, if it's to LF no need for her to sign it Sansa Stark , I think it's to the inexperienced new Lord Cerwyn.

At some point I think Sansa will tell Jon, and they will split up, I think Davos goes with Sansa and Mel with Jon.

I think we may get a face to face with both or one of these lords, Sansa has the right of the numbers problem, she's trying to avoid letting LF back in ( but will have to).

 

With what Sophie has been saying but most notably what Liam Cunningham has stated since last year ( Sansa is going to have a hell of an arc)

I think we are seeing a pen is mightier then a sword episode from Sansa.

If people watch Sophie's facial expression in the Lady Mormont scene, she noticed how Davos convinced the Lady of Bear Island, just as she understood how LF got to her, then tried the same thing on Theon (your the last surviving son....).

We still haven't had the VO by Sansa ( when I think of what was taken from me) I don't think she needs to say that to LF; Lord Davos maybe,Lord Royce maybe, or Manderly maybe, Cerwin maybe, Robert Arryn maybe; not LF.

Edited June 7, 2016 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

9 minutes ago, J----av said:

Yeah.... your clearly watching Sansa with rose tinted glasses. She's even worse in the books

I don't think you understood that character at all, or the reasons for her thoughts or actions.

Really, I don't.