S06.E07: The Broken Man

[Tikichick]

15 minutes ago, J----av said:

Yeah.... your clearly watching Sansa with rose tinted glasses. She's even worse in the books

I don't see it that her heart is a particular area of weakness for Sansa, screen or books.  She needs to sharpen her mind IMO.

Asserting herself more isn't a sign of bitchiness anymore than wary self preservation causing her to give off an air of coldness would be.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

How would that work in either case?

Arya could be laying in wait for the Waif.  Arya could be seen to have been "killed" when in reality she has gotten away.

I'm not settled on what happened, I only know I don't believe what we were shown.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Arya could be laying in wait for the Waif.  Arya could be seen to have been "killed" when in reality she has gotten away.

I'm not settled on what happened, I only know I don't believe what we were shown.

No, I mean, how and why would either of those people be wandering around Braavos acting as Arya?  Arya has never been shown learning to make masks, etc., and in any event that would require her to cut her own face off.

[Alapaki]

Quote

As to why he'd risk death, well . . . because he's No One. His own life is meaningless when weighed against rooting out a heretic in the service of the Many-Faced God.

And doesn't he still owe "a life" to Arya from back over in Westeros?

Quote

 

Sansa in the books is one of the most kindhearted people around, all things considered, after her illusions get shattered; and even before that she's capable of, e.g., extending genuine sympathy to the Hound even as he's insulting her to her face and threatening to kill her.

Quote

 

I don't think you understood that character at all, or the reasons for her thoughts or actions.

Really, I don't.

 

Agreed.  Sansa's actions are incredibly frustrating in the book (especially in Book 1), but her motivations are at least understandable and not malicious.

[Dev F]

3 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

And doesn't he still owe "a life" to Arya from back over in Westeros?

Probably not. The show doesn't really address it, but Jaqen kills several guards to aid in Arya's escape from Harrenhal, which presumably more than settles his debt to her.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

Probably not. The show doesn't really address it, but Jaqen kills several guards to aid in Arya's escape from Harrenhal, which presumably more than settles his debt to her.

They showed us that, with the last death being the guard on the gate when Arya needed to escape.

[Tikichick]

15 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, I mean, how and why would either of those people be wandering around Braavos acting as Arya?  Arya has never been shown learning to make masks, etc., and in any event that would require her to cut her own face off.

Not sure of the logistics.  But there is a lot we don't understand about being No One, the Many Faced God and the House of Black and White.  There is a way the loose threads tie together here, that I'm sure of.  It could be that Arya will merely slip away with the acting troupe as a means of escape and that's why we had the whole set up of her watching the plays and the actress she saved essentially owing her a debt.  

[Oscirus]

Quote

Why would they care about Jon deserting the Watch when they clearly haven't cared about them for years? They only send thieves and rapists to the Wall and they clearly don't think the threat of the White Walkers is real.

If people believe the part of the pitch where they state the white walker threat is real , then the next question should be about why Jon left the one organization that is meant to protect them from that sort of thing.
 

Quote

 

And while Jon did consider abandoning the fight for a moment, what he's doing right now is for the benefit of the Seven Kingdoms. He's not trying to rally the North just to rescue Rickon and sail off to Essos.

 

If Sansa hadn't arrived and stopped him, he would've been out the door.  What he's doing might benefit the seven kingdoms, but that sure as hell ain't why he's doing it. If that was the case,, he wouldn't have needed the pink letter to spring him into action.

[Maximum Taco]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If people believe the part of the pitch where they state the white walker threat is real , then the next question should be about why Jon left the one organization that is meant to protect them from that sort of thing.

I thought he pretty much did, or rather Davos did. Even with the full strength of the Watch, Jeor Mormont's forces fell at the Fist of the First Men, and Jon (with the wildlings this time) failed at Hardhome.

Only a united North would be able to stand against the coming threat, and he doesn't believe that Ramsay is capable or willing to do that.

[LadyArcadia]

On 6/5/2016 at 10:49 PM, Gertrude said:

Being gay or straight is not characterization, it just is a thing about someone. Does having brown hair charactarize Yara? And because she's a lesbian, she's OK with a mysogynistic culture? So many things wrong with this. This type of response is the reason I was bothered they showed Yara as gay/bi/whatever. It was lazy of the show writers and they haven't really gotten their quota of tits in the show this season, so by all means, have some.

It's not that I mind them changing the sexuality of a character if it doesn't have any story significance. I am bothered that of all the people they could have chosen, it was Yara - the big tough warrior chick who - let's face it - is obviously a lesbian, duh. I get that it was used to drive home Theon's situation, but did we really have to be reminded of it at this point? Oh wait, yeah,wet did. We didn't have our quota of dick jokes this episode either, so this scene does double duty. Good job, Show, good job.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. For me, they introduced it perfectly and naturally given the setting of the show.  How many scenes have we seen with men groping women in a brothel? You go get some too, Yara. That girl did have a fine ass.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, LadyArcadia said:

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. For me, they introduced it perfectly and naturally given the setting of the show.  How many scenes have we seen with men groping women in a brothel? You go get some too, Yara. That girl did have a fine ass.

I thought it was more about establishing Yara as perfectly at home as captain of the ship/fleet, and every bit the equal of every other captain/seaman. 

[Argenta]

21 minutes ago, LadyArcadia said:

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. For me, they introduced it perfectly and naturally given the setting of the show.  How many scenes have we seen with men groping women in a brothel? You go get some too, Yara. That girl did have a fine ass.

I have no issue with Yara liking the ladies, but I felt a bit icky about the way they wrote it. I've seen plenty of the crude, derogatory, objectifying, patronising way that many men talk to and about women in the show, and I cringed at hearing those exact same kinds of phrases come out of a woman's mouth. I would think Yara would have a little more respect for other women, given the discrimination she herself has had to overcome on account of her sex (she's not fit to rule because she's female, etc).

[DigitalCount]

Though this hardly makes it better, I think Yara's attitude reflects the fact that the woman was a prostitute, rather than just being female.

[Oscirus]

I tend to think that since Yara grew up around mostly males in such a crude culture that she would adopt their attitudes and habits.

[guybareli]

"... And lady Sansa is a Bolton. Or is she a Lannister? I heard conflicting reports."

Some fan art of our lovely new character! :D

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I tend to think that since Yara grew up around mostly males in such a crude culture that she would adopt their attitudes and habits.

Exactly.  I took it as part of the price Yara has paid to survive and be successful in the IronBorn, paying the price if you will.

[Dev F]

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I tend to think that since Yara grew up around mostly males in such a crude culture that she would adopt their attitudes and habits.

Yeah, and it's very much in keeping with Yara's personal background as well -- as someone who grew up as the son her father no longer had. Now, the writers could certainly have played with that same idea the way the books do, where she's heterosexual but treats her male partners with a traditionally masculine casualness. But given what they wanted to accomplish in this particular scene, making her interested in women was a much cleaner choice.

The other way you'd have to make some awkward parallels -- say, Yara is feeling up a male sex slave, which makes Theon feel awkward that he's not into the female sex slaves hanging around. It's much less direct than having Theon feel bad that he's not into this hot chick the way his sister is. And you run the risk of suggesting a sexual equivalency where none really existed: See, men get exploited by women the same way women get exploited by men!

[benteen]

The show actually hasn't been as bad on the random nudity front as they have been in recent seasons.  It's like they finally realized they didn't have to be so over-the-top with the way they've presented it so far.

[Gertrude]

It wasn't Yara's demeanor with the prostitute that bothered me, but the fact that it's an obvious trope. I'm not bothered by Yara's sexuality, just wish they hadn't gone there. It felt like they felt they wanted to represent LGBT on the show and decided this was the best place to put it. So the only homosexuality we've seen is Loras/Renly and they went with the faaabulous stereotype, and Yara, who falls into the butch stereotype. Yes, both types of people exist, but with such a small sample, I wish they didn't go with predominant stereotypes. Their mishandling of Loras is coloring my perception of Yara here. In a vacuum either one is fine, but taken together it doesn't sit particularly well with me. I would rather see smaller bits of homosexual relationships in the background or other minor characters with various physical types if they just wanted to represent. I can't imagine Yara's sexuality is plot relevant.

So yeah, it's not her sexuality that bothers me, it's just the show's clumsy handling of homosexuality in general.

edit: I don't see her demeanor as 'paying the price' of being in a man's world. If you grow up around a certain culture, you adopt those same norms. I feel she is just being herself, and herself is an Iron Born warrior, completely comfortable in her skin.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gertrude

[The Mormegil]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

While I think it's a possibility that that letter may go to LF, I'm more inclined to the opposite; Sansa and Jon have their discussion, Sansa begs him to go to Lord Cerwyn

  Reveal hidden contents

Boyce or Fletcher code names for Cerwyn and Manderly?

 

and Jon refuses,( he's heading into a suicide raid at this point) we then cut to Sansa writing the letter, if it's to LF no need for her to sign it Sansa Stark , I think it's to the inexperienced new Lord Cerwyn.

I think most of the letter has been deciphered on reddit and it's pretty clear it is to LF.

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, The Mormegil said:

I think most of the letter has been deciphered on reddit and it's pretty clear it is to LF.

Nice piece of work they did, was too blurry for me to piece together, and no time to spend doing that.

So now we wait.

[Fishslap]

4 hours ago, J----av said:

 Just like Oberyn had to kill the Mountain lol. Don't get your hopes up. People rarely get justice against those that wronged them

This is literature, not reality, just in case there's any confusion. The reason Oberyn failed is that the Hound is the one who kills the Mountain in this work of fiction. I repeat that point just so it's nice and clear.

[FemmyV]

7 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

All the Northern Lords who are blaming Robb for the Red Wedding are really falling for the Frey's propaganda, aren't they?

No, sorry. Freys wouldn't have had anything to beef about if Robb could have  a) kept it in his pants and /or b) stuck to his obligation to marry the Frey girl. It was no small favor they did him in letting Robb's army past the Twins, and no small bitterness the old man had been hanging onto, as Cat was witness to. Talisa probably fucked god-knows-how-many officers before she found her way to Robb.

 

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Sansa's actions are incredibly frustrating in the book (especially in Book 1), but her motivations are at least understandable and not malicious.

If you look at Sansa's desire to be Queen, early on, it was not malicious until the incident at the Trident. Sansa set the tone of that scene immediately with her scream at Arya, as if her sister was doing something wrong. Yes, is sucked that Lady was killed, but it's not like Sansa was an innocent victim. She had her chance to speak up against Joff, but wanted to be Queeeeeeeen. In KL, Sansa was a total bitch towards Ned, because she wanted to be Queen, until his head came flying off.

Think of all the crap she's gone through, since, and one might think being Queen is now the last thing in the world Sansa would want, now that she's seen what comes with it. It's understandable, even, that she's now pinning her survival to a rise in power. But underneath everything, she's still has two modes: when she feels safe, she's that privileged teen who thinks people going to hand her everything she wants because she's Sansa Stark. When she doesn't feel safe, she rolls over.

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

This is literature, not reality, just in case there's any confusion. The reason Oberyn failed is that the Hound is the one who kills the Mountain in this work of fiction. I repeat that point just so it's nice and clear.

I agree that bit of karmic justice has been set up with backstory from the beginning.  I've begun to realize how and when the confrontation must occur and shudder to think what the Hound will face in order to undertake this battle -- and Gregor's size, strength, fighting acumen, viciousness and the fact he is questionably alive will be the least of his worries IMO.  It will be a poetic battle for sure.

[Raachel2008]

16 hours ago, kittykat said:

I wasn't a Talisa hater as much as others but I didn't read the books until between seasons 2 and 3.  That said I would've preferred the Jeyne Westerling angle.  But D&D have been about the BIG LOVE STORY! Robb lurrrrves Talisa, Jaime lurrrrrrvvvves Cersei (that preview next week, arrrrrrrgggggh!),  Tormund luuuurrrvvves Brienne (ok guys we'll give you that one ;-) ) 

Anyway, while the Freys screwed up by violating the guest right, the Northern lords are salty after years of losing lives to Stark honor.  Should they be outraged about Roose's betrayal?  Absolutely.  Should they be concerned about the White walkers?  Hell yeah they should.  Should they set aside their old prejudices concerning the Wildlings?  Yes they should but those opinions aren't going to change overnight.  

It sucks for Team Stark that for once they are trying to do the right thing and unite people and raise awareness about the REAL war.  But when they hide behind the old honor card that's where they lose their argument with these old lords.  Jon and Sansa aren't the sharpest tools in terms of diplomacy but they're going by how they were raised.  It was an absolute in their life that despite all they have been through that the north would remember and the Stark name was enough to rally these people and they're getting a hard lesson that the North Remembers, and they're kind of resentful.

Don't get me wrong I want them to win.  And obviously D&D are setting them up as the underdogs so that their win will be that much more triumphant but they need more of an argument besides "but...we're Starks."

This a thousand times.

Edited to add: To be honest I don't think Robb marrying Talisa is/was the biggest problem there, but Catelyn freeing Jamie, Karstark killing the Lannister boys to have the revenge Catelyn denided him and then Robb beheading Kastark. With Talisa the message was "fuck the vows, I'm thinking with my dick". Sure, bad move, unleashed a serie of events that made them lost the war in a carnage that could have been avoided, but none of them could have predicted how things would go down.  But with Catelyn and Kastark the message was that they Stark children (Arya, Sansa) valued more than any Lords' children - and why do you go to war if not to make sure your house, your name, your family, your children will remain around for a long time?- Robb didn't even slap Catelyn on the wrist. The message was very clear: "Fuck you all, you are not allies, you are servants, we do not care about you and we Starks do as we please." If you think about it, Robb marrying Talisa and everything that happened because of that marriage was a bad decision that in the end cost a lot of lives (wich they didn't know would happen the way it did),  but Catelyn freeing Jamie and Robb beaheading Kasrtark because he killed the Lannisters cousins was much worse - he not only could have just kept Karstak in a cell, but he lost Karstark' army. You are a Lord of the North, which one is the biggest betrayal? The answer is pretty clear to me, but, again, it is easier to D&D to have a line about "that foreign whore" than someone telling Jon and Sansa what else was happening there. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Raachel2008
To make things clear.

[Fishslap]

49 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I agree that bit of karmic justice has been set up with backstory from the beginning.  I've begun to realize how and when the confrontation must occur and shudder to think what the Hound will face in order to undertake this battle -- and Gregor's size, strength, fighting acumen, viciousness and the fact he is questionably alive will be the least of his worries IMO.  It will be a poetic battle for sure.

Right. Well some of these fateful episodes are painfully obvious, and if we are confused it's simply because we haven't figured out the purpose of a character. Personally I was stunned when Sean Bean was offed in season 1, not having ready the books at that point and believing him to be the main character of the show. But I realize now that he died simply because he was done as a literary character. Through his oafish stupidity and honesty he helped cause the war and nearly destroy his own family and country. There was really nothing more he could do at this point, short of telling Jon about his heritage. But if he had done that Jon Snow would not have gone to the wall and might even have claimed the Iron Throne, making him what Robb became and then some; and probably just as dead. Jon's ignorance was essential to the entire story at the Wall, so Ned really was done even though he took that secret with him to the grave. And Stannis is basically the same, as unhappy as I was about his final scene. He had burned his followers, lost a major battle due to his own pride and finally burned his own daughter so his army deserted him and his wife hanged herself. It is not possible to be more done as a literary character than Stannis was, so you kill him off.

As for the obvious things, as soon as Mel was moved along with Stannis to the wall I knew that someone would die and be resurrected by her. What else was the Beric Dondarrion episode in season 2 about, if not to foreshadow this? First I though it might be Stannis who was brought back, but as season 5 unfolded I became more and more convinced it would be Jon, which it was. And this was completely predictable right away with Mel at the Wall. And the Hound now is the same thing. The only two obvious things about him are that he will kill the Mountain, now as a champion of the Sparrows and the Seven, and that he will be burned to death, probably by the fire people or even dragons. There is too much buildup of both things, not just on the show but in the books, for this to not take place in some way. The only question is how they take place.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

Right. Well some of these fateful episodes are painfully obvious, and if we are confused it's simply because we haven't figured out the purpose of a character. Personally I was stunned when Sean Bean was offed in season 1, not having ready the books at that point and believing him to be the main character of the show. But I realize now that he died simply because he was done as a literary character. Through his oafish stupidity and honesty he helped cause the war and nearly destroy his own family and country. There was really nothing more he could do at this point, short of telling Jon about his heritage. But if he had done that Jon Snow would not have gone to the wall and might even have claimed the Iron Throne, making him what Robb became and then some; and probably just as dead. Jon's ignorance was essential to the entire story at the Wall, so Ned really was done even though he took that secret with him to the grave. And Stannis is basically the same, as unhappy as I was about his final scene. He had burned his followers, lost a major battle due to his own pride and finally burned his own daughter so his army deserted him and his wife hanged herself. It is not possible to be more done as a literary character than Stannis was, so you kill him off.

As for the obvious things, as soon as Mel was moved along with Stannis to the wall I knew that someone would die and be resurrected by her. What else was the Beric Dondarrion episode in season 2 about, if not to foreshadow this? First I though it might be Stannis who was brought back, but as season 5 unfolded I became more and more convinced it would be Jon, which it was. And this was completely predictable right away with Mel at the Wall. And the Hound now is the same thing. The only two obvious things about him are that he will kill the Mountain, now as a champion of the Sparrows and the Seven, and that he will be burned to death, probably by the fire people or even dragons. There is too much buildup of both things, not just on the show but in the books, for this to not take place in some way. The only question is how they take place.

I see the Hound's fate playing out a little bit differently I guess, at least if they take it down the path I suspect Martin intends -- which for varying reasons it seems the show is building to as well.

[Alapaki]

Quote

Should they be outraged about Roose's betrayal?

Yes.  But the Houses seem to have a collective action problem whereby none of them want to take the initiative to band together and depose the Boltons.  And no House appears to be strong enough to overtake Winterfell on their own.

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Should they be concerned about the White walkers?

Knowing what we know?  Yes.  As far as they know, there's an 800-foot-high Wall that was built to keep just such creatures out.  

Quote

Should they set aside their old prejudices concerning the Wildlings?

Not unless their eyes were opened about the reality of #2 above.  

The problem is that none of these Lords want to be the one who loses their family House the way the Starks have (to all appearances) lost theirs.  Historic loyalty to the Starks notwithstanding, there's a new sheriff in town.  And these Lords have very concrete concerns that outweigh the relatively still-intangible risks that Jon, Sansa and Davos are warning them about. (although, frankly, Sansa seems more concerned about getting back Winterfell than dealing with Others).  

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I don't see it that her heart is a particular area of weakness for Sansa, screen or books.  She needs to sharpen her mind IMO.

Asserting herself more isn't a sign of bitchiness anymore than wary self preservation causing her to give off an air of coldness would be.

Sansa can't seem to win--either she's too girly, too soft, or she's too bitchy. She's always been a bit of an ice princess--blame it on the North or on Catelyn. :)

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Sansa can't seem to win--either she's too girly, too soft, or she's too bitchy. She's always been a bit of an ice princess--blame it on the North or on Catelyn. :)

LOL, initially as I read book one I disliked Sansa, largely because I saw her as too influenced by her mother, who I didn't like either.  As the story played out Sansa suffered, Sansa learned a few things and Sansa improved IMO.  I also gave her slack for being a kid, being a kid left alone in a horrid trap with horrible people. 

I never warmed to Catelyn.  If Lady Stoneheart appears on screen I might get some character growth satisfaction from her at long last.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I think Margie could get some birth control if she put her mind to it. Some herbs from a ladylike gardening session and a seemingly innocuous tincture for headaches from a healer, a carefully placed package from a bribed handmaiden, and viola, medieval morning after pill.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I agree that bit of karmic justice has been set up with backstory from the beginning.  I've begun to realize how and when the confrontation must occur and shudder to think what the Hound will face in order to undertake this battle -- and Gregor's size, strength, fighting acumen, viciousness and the fact he is questionably alive will be the least of his worries IMO.  It will be a poetic battle for sure.

[Bold added]

So far we've seen that the best weapon against reanimated corpses is fire, the one thing that Sandor Clegane is afraid of.  So he'll have to overcome his fear in order to beat Frankengregor, and at the same time get revenge for what Gregor did to him as a child. 

[Cherpumple]

55 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

And the Hound now is the same thing. The only two obvious things about him are that he will kill the Mountain, now as a champion of the Sparrows and the Seven, and that he will be burned to death, probably by the fire people or even dragons.

I see it differently. To me, the obvious resolution to the Hound's fear of fire is him overcoming his fear at a crucial moment to do something heroic, or at least helpful to someone good. I don't think he's on a full-blown redemption arc, but I think he will do some good things before his end, perhaps reprising his role as protector of the Stark girls. If anything, the poetic resolution to both these issues would be for the Hound to kill the Mountain by burning him to death.

Mac123x: I see great minds think alike. : )

Edited June 7, 2016 by Cherpumple

[Tikichick]

Just now, mac123x said:

[Bold added]

So far we've seen that the best weapon against reanimated corpses is fire, the one thing that Sandor Clegane is afraid of.  So he'll have to overcome his fear in order to beat Frankengregor, and at the same time get revenge for what Gregor did to him as a child. 

Absolutely one way it could play out.  I suspect the fire will not be a weapon they deploy in their battle, however I absolutely do expect it to come into play.

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

The show actually hasn't been as bad on the random nudity front as they have been in recent seasons.  It's like they finally realized they didn't have to be so over-the-top with the way they've presented it so far.

Well, there was the upshot of the young actor's scrotum and penis, which I found roll-off-the-couch hilarious. Ok, if they wouldn't give me full-frontal Oberyn Martell in my demands for equal on-screen nudity, I guess that's what I'll settle for. 

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

I see it differently. To me, the obvious resolution to the Hound's fear of fire is him overcoming his fear at a crucial moment to do something heroic, or at least helpful to someone good. I don't think he's on a full-blown redemption arc, but I think he will do some good things before his end, perhaps reprising his role as protector of the Stark girls. If anything, the poetic resolution to both these issues would be for the Hound to kill the Mountain by burning him to death.

Mac123x: I see great minds think alike. : )

Yep, I think poetically it's got to be burnt Mountain, but I don't think Sandor will be the one who brings fire into the equation.  Whether it will be Gregor or another who brings fire into play I don't know.  I do know that I am hopeful that fire will not be the Hound's end.  

Simply for the fact that it is so emotional and poetic, this is something I am sorry not to experience first from Martin's words because I've always known it had to be.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Tikichick
Added detail

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

If you look at Sansa's desire to be Queen, early on, it was not malicious until the incident at the Trident. Sansa set the tone of that scene immediately with her scream at Arya, as if her sister was doing something wrong. Yes, is sucked that Lady was killed, but it's not like Sansa was an innocent victim. She had her chance to speak up against Joff, but wanted to be Queeeeeeeen. In KL, Sansa was a total bitch towards Ned, because she wanted to be Queen, until his head came flying off.

But Arya was doing something wrong from Sansa's point of view - she wasn't acting ladylike. I'm sorry, but Sansa was frustrating, spoiled and self-centered, but not malicious. She was raised to be a lady, to want everything that entailed and taught that it was her right and duty to be said lady. Being Queen was the pinnacle of that upbringing, the best she could accomplish with her life. All that, and she was what? 12 or 13? It's like people have never been around young teens before. Even at Sansa's most annoying and selfish, she's a dream of a teen daughter.

In the show we even see Ned talking to Arya about what Sansa did. Joff was to be her husband and family - her loyalty was divided. The lie she told wasn't to specifically get anyone into trouble or absolve either one, it was to appease both sides of the quarrel. She said she didn't remember what happened. Yes, it had horrible consequences, just as all Stark choices - as good intentioned as they might be - have horrible consequences. It's kind of a family tradition.

For the record, I think the show is handling Sansa pretty badly and I can see where the remark about Sansa's two modes - rolling over and privileged princess- are coming from. It makes me sad because that remark is fairly well deserved for Show Sansa, but not for Book Sansa.

[Minneapple]

10 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

But Arya was doing something wrong from Sansa's point of view - she wasn't acting ladylike. I'm sorry, but Sansa was frustrating, spoiled and self-centered, but not malicious. She was raised to be a lady, to want everything that entailed and taught that it was her right and duty to be said lady. Being Queen was the pinnacle of that upbringing, the best she could accomplish with her life. All that, and she was what? 12 or 13? It's like people have never been around young teens before. Even at Sansa's most annoying and selfish, she's a dream of a teen daughter.

In the show we even see Ned talking to Arya about what Sansa did. Joff was to be her husband and family - her loyalty was divided. The lie she told wasn't to specifically get anyone into trouble or absolve either one, it was to appease both sides of the quarrel. She said she didn't remember what happened. Yes, it had horrible consequences, just as all Stark choices - as good intentioned as they might be - have horrible consequences. It's kind of a family tradition.

For the record, I think the show is handling Sansa pretty badly and I can see where the remark about Sansa's two modes - rolling over and privileged princess- are coming from. It makes me sad because that remark is fairly well deserved for Show Sansa, but not for Book Sansa.

Yes. I agree with this completely. Book One/Season One Sansa is shallow and silly, but she's not cruel or malicious. She just wants pretty dresses and to marry a prince and live as a princess. She genuinely believes in society manners, acting like a highborn lady and all that. I totally understand why she played the middle when she lied about the Arya incident. I've seen Sansa shredded on other forums because she didn't take Arya's side, but how would it have looked to Joffrey and Cersei had she done that? Joffrey was to be her husband and Cersei her mother-in-law.

I think Show Sansa's development has been really inconsistent. At the end of season four she looks to be on the verge of breaking out as a player. Then season five happened and it was like, WTF? 

[patchwork]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Yes. I agree with this completely. Book One/Season One Sansa is shallow and silly, but she's not cruel or malicious. She just wants pretty dresses and to marry a prince and live as a princess. She genuinely believes in society manners, acting like a highborn lady and all that. I totally understand why she played the middle when she lied about the Arya incident. I've seen Sansa shredded on other forums because she didn't take Arya's side, but how would it have looked to Joffrey and Cersei had she done that? Joffrey was to be her husband and Cersei her mother-in-law.

I think Show Sansa's development has been really inconsistent. At the end of season four she looks to be on the verge of breaking out as a player. Then season five happened and it was like, WTF? 

I think in season 2 the show really starts to fail Sansa, ditching Ser Dontos until just before Joffrey and Marge's wedding was a mistake imo. Yes ultimately he's working for Littlefinger but until then he's an ally and it shows that Sansa is actively working towards escape in more ways than one. If they didn't want to keep the actor on then notes in the Godwood would have worked just as well.  

It's a shame because I always want to like her storylines way more than I actually do and this reclaiming Winterfell thing seems to be going the same way. 

[paigow]

10 hours ago, J----av said:

 Just like Oberyn had to kill the Mountain lol. Don't get your hopes up. People rarely get justice against those that wronged them

Unless one of them finds a wormhole or transporter pad, they won't get within spitting distance of each other this season....

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, patchwork said:

It's a shame because I always want to like her storylines way more than I actually do and this reclaiming Winterfell thing seems to be going the same way. 

Right? The Winterfell arc started so promisingly, with the Stark reunion. And since then it's just become...uneven.

[henripootel]

Quote

Book One/Season One Sansa is shallow and silly, but she's not cruel or malicious. She just wants pretty dresses and to marry a prince and live as a princess. She genuinely believes in society manners, acting like a highborn lady and all that.

My problem with Sansa is not that she chooses the methods and pomps of a highborn lady, my problem is that she uses these to no avail.  She's basically a vapid, empty-headed moron who got her family and lots of others killed.  We've seen several fine lessons in what 'being a lady' can accomplish, my favorite being the scene where Tyrion bumps into Catelyn in a roadhouse and ends up at the point of a dozen swords.  Not much of a Catelyn fan myself but that was fucking awesome.  Wanting pretty dresses and a pretty life don't make Sansa useless but that's all she is.  The only lesson she seems to have learned from all her troubles seems to be that she hates it when bad shit happens to her.  She seems move saavy these days that other people are assholes but if she's picked up any hints of 'purpose' or 'duty', I must have missed it.  Having her meet young Lady Mormont threw this into sharp relief, at least for me. 

[yellowfred]

11 hours ago, The Mormegil said:

I think most of the letter has been deciphered on reddit and it's pretty clear it is to LF.

I'm still holding out hope that that's a misdirect.  Like, they mentioned needing to be careful about sending out ravens before they left, since there was a chance Ramsey would intercept them.  She could be sending that one specifically so that Ramsey will intercept it and send his forces to Moat Cailin, with the intention of stopping the knights of the Vale, which would leave Winterfell relatively unguarded.  

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, henripootel said:

My problem with Sansa is not that she chooses the methods and pomps of a highborn lady, my problem is that she uses these to no avail.

In the context of the show only, I can't disagree.

[Oscirus]

Quote

So the only homosexuality we've seen is Loras/Renly and they went with the faaabulous stereotype, and Yara, who falls into the butch stereotype.

Don't forget Oberyn who's far from a gay stereotype. I didn't find the brothel keeper particularly fabulous either.

 

Quote

The only two obvious things about him are that he will kill the Mountain, now as a champion of the Sparrows and the Seven, and that he will be burned to death, probably by the fire people or even dragons.

I seriously doubt that he's doing anything for the sparrows. I think the only obvious thing about Hound is that at some point, he will wind back up with Arya likely as her protector.

 

Sansa, Sansa Sansa. Such a controversial character but she's easily my favorite Stark. I've loved her since Blackwater when she told Tyrion she'd be praying for his death and then she proceeded to sass Joffrey. I even loved when she sassed Ramsey last season. My biggest problem with her storyline this season is that the writers are trying to shoehorn her into a girl power narrative that she doesn't have to be in. There's no way in hell: a) they should show her advising Davos on anything war related, b) Former lord commander Snow should be deferring to her.  On the other hand, her smacking down Jon when he threatened to get too whiny was awesome.

For Sansa it's just a matter of finding that sweet spot where she can snark but at the same time that she doesn't come off too pretentious.

[Oscirus]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 3:58 PM, vibeology said:

It's a Mic Drop of a line, but Olenna has to know its not even close to true. Cersei is awful but like you said there are some other serious contenders for that title. Tywin would probably win in my books for everything he managed to do in his lifetime. Olenna was around when he wiped out the Reynes. It seems like no one outside of the family knows about Tysha, but everyone knows about the sack of King's Landing. Add to it the Red Wedding and the destruction of the Riverlands and Tywin is probably the most destructive person Olenna has ever met. Give Cersei time but I don't think she's truly there yet.

None of those people cost Oleanna both her grandchildren like Cersei. So to QOT, Cersei is easily the worse just based off that one fact.

[Sarnia]

On 06/06/2016 at 7:54 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Are they even mentioning Rickon in their sales pitch?  No one seems to care that Jon should be seen as a Night's Watch deserter and/or a corpse reanimated through foreign magic, and anyone loyal to the Starks should be spurred into action by having the King in the North (sorry Bran) rotting in a dungeon.

Yes, I didn't get that. Maybe for some people Jon will always be a Snow and Sansa not a Stark anymore, but Rickon is a Stark, male, legitimate son of Ned and all that. No one could not see him as a (the?) legitimate heir to Winterfell. The fact that he's alive (and being held captive) should be major for the Houses historically pledged to Stark. He was mentioned but more along the line of "help our brother that's being held captive" not "House Stark is not dead as Rickon is still alive".

 

Is it the first time that there has been some action before the opening credits?

Edited June 8, 2016 by Sarnia

[Cherpumple]

5 hours ago, henripootel said:

[Sansa's] basically a vapid, empty-headed moron who got her family and lots of others killed.

I strongly disagree with the last part of this sentence. In terms of dead family members, she had nothing to do with the Red Wedding, and Aunt Lysa had a target on her back from the moment she said "I do" to Littlefinger, with or without Sansa'a presence. As for others, she saved Dontos's life (for a time), and never really had enough agency/influence to cause anyone else's death (except Joffrey's, when she wasn't even aware of her participation). Even the deaths of Mycah and Lady can't be laid at her feet directly, IMO. If she had told the truth about the Arya/Joffrey situation, I'm pretty sure Cersei would have wanted revenge anyway and IIRC, Mycah had already been killed by the time the girls were brought before King Robert. I may be forgetting some other events, but If you are referring to the consequences of her tattling to Cersei about Ned's plans to leave King's Landing in the first book, I highly doubt that things would have ended much differently if she had kept her mouth shut. Ned had already informed Cersei of his plans to expose the illegitimacy of her children, and she would have sent Lannister goons after him all the way back to Winterfell if that's what it took to keep him quiet. I've seen people on other forums call Sansa the worst villain in Westeros because of this conversation with Cersei, which truly baffles me. Sansa is a problematic, and even unlikeable, character in many ways (especially this weird hybrid version of her we're seeing on the show), but for all her sins, I can't agree that she is to blame for the deaths of any family members or others.

Back on topic, Sansa really needs to work on her diplomacy, and I'm with those of you who are hoping that there is more to her letter than meets the eye; either it's meant to divert Ramsay's forces, or she wrote to Lord Royce or Robin, rather than to Littlefinger directly.

[RedHawk]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I seriously doubt that he's doing anything for the sparrows. I think the only obvious thing about Hound is that at some point, he will wind back up with Arya likely as her protector.

 

Or she as his.

[benteen]

20 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

This a thousand times.

Edited to add: To be honest I don't think Robb marrying Talisa is/was the biggest problem there, but Catelyn freeing Jamie, Karstark killing the Lannister boys to have the revenge Catelyn denided him and then Robb beheading Kastark. With Talisa the message was "fuck the vows, I'm thinking with my dick". Sure, bad move, unleashed a serie of events that made them lost the war in a carnage that could have been avoided, but none of them could have predicted how things would go down.  But with Catelyn and Kastark the message was that they Stark children (Arya, Sansa) valued more than any Lords' children - and why do you go to war if not to make sure your house, your name, your family, your children will remain around for a long time?- Robb didn't even slap Catelyn on the wrist. The message was very clear: "Fuck you all, you are not allies, you are servants, we do not care about you and we Starks do as we please." If you think about it, Robb marrying Talisa and everything that happened because of that marriage was a bad decision that in the end cost a lot of lives (wich they didn't know would happen the way it did),  but Catelyn freeing Jamie and Robb beaheading Kasrtark because he killed the Lannisters cousins was much worse - he not only could have just kept Karstak in a cell, but he lost Karstark' army. You are a Lord of the North, which one is the biggest betrayal? The answer is pretty clear to me, but, again, it is easier to D&D to have a line about "that foreign whore" than someone telling Jon and Sansa what else was happening there. 

Another thing to point out is the manner of death for Karstark's son(s).  On the show, both his sons are cut down by Jaime on the battlefield.  Karstark is understandably upset with that but it was done on the field of battle, which is more "acceptable".  On the show, Jaime killed Karstark's son during an escape attempt by strangling him with his chain.  Basically a dishonorable murder.  So D&D changed it to justify Karstark's anger at Jaime even more.

Robb's reason for marrying in the books were stupid but at least in the books he was trying to do the honorable thing.  On the show, he deliberately broke his marriage vow to the Freys in a childish, stupid and selfish manner.

As much as I hate these changes to the story, D&D have created a scenario where you can understand the resentment to the Starks by the Northern houses.

Edited June 8, 2016 by benteen