S04.E13: Persona Non Grata

[izabella]

43 minutes ago, ToniG said:

See, I took Philip's talk at EST to refer to his real job, the one he can't just quit, not the cover job.

I saw it that way, too.  When he said he couldn't quit because he'd made commitments and people were counting on him, he wasn't just talking about travel customers or even just his wife and kids. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by izabella

[AliShibaz]

4 hours ago, crashdown said:

Hey, yeah!  Me, too!  Wasn't that the movie that came on right after the Giligan's Island episode when they almost got off the island?

Actually, the film was "The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit" (1956). It starred Gregory Peck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_Gray_Flannel_Suit

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049474/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_36

[SunnyBeBe]

I agree.  I never thought Philip meant the Travel Agent's job at all when he was complaining at EST.  And when that guy asked him if his loved ones would love him even if he quit his job.....he had to think about it. lol  He knows Elizabeth is very committed.  

Still, there is more to P & E not wanting to go back to Russia, IMO.  I sense they know that their lives there would not be what they have grown accustomed to.  I'm not sure what they think their lives in Russia would look like......it's not that good. Did you catch that expression by Philip when E asked him if their hometowns had changed. (They were in the bedroom.)  He gave some kind of very pessimistic response as if he did NOT think they had gotten any better.  

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Actually, wasn't Stan almost immediately suspicious of the Jenningses?  I remember him snooping in their garage while Philip hid around the corner with his gun drawn.  My interpretation - Stan's instincts were on point, but when he found nothing in the garage, he thought he was being paranoid and blamed it on his long-time under cover work.  I think that embarrassment has helped him dismiss anything else suspicious that's cropped up over the years.

I would be interested in a Jennings family on the run story, but only if they're being pursued by Stan and Aderholt.  I really like the balance of those two elements.

I'm not sure what I think of the Mischa story line.  I never truly believed he existed, and we still don't really know that Philip is that kid's father.  But they seemed to cast for similarity to Philip and Henry, so I'm willing to accept it's true.  I would be more interested in an adversarial relationship - at least initially.  Something like Mischa seeking asylum to the US by reporting his knowledge of his mother and his bio father being long-term under cover as an American.  Otherwise his addition seems so trite and awkward.  There's enough tension all around without worrying about the stranger who shows up with a thick Russian accent.  And I don't think his presence will cause much jealousy with Elizabeth.  She managed to always treat Martha fairly and seemed concerned about her welfare, even knowing she was definite competition for Philip's affection.  Whereas Mischa happened before she even met Philip, and I don't think she would ever ask or even approve of Philip denying another child of his.  So now I'm thinking end game is Philip and Elizabeth on the run, while big brother cares for Paige and Henry.  I can handle an ending that doesn't involved death or imprisonment for Philip and Elizabeth, because I really don't think the show will do that to their protagonists.  Just as long as Philip and Elizabeth swear off this way of life and admit they've been Americanized, and they're no longer believers in the cause - I'll be content.  Maybe a word or two of regret for the innocents they've killed would be nice.  All the innocents have bothered me, but probably none more than the guy Elizabeth dropped the car on.  He would have suffered a good long time before dying.

Yes he was, and his wife told him to calm the fuck down, he was home, he was out of the undercover crap.  I think he was questioning his own sanity after the disturbing embedded agent fling, and then spying on his neighbors.  I think that's why he was vulnerable to Nina after the KGB caught her and made her a double/triple agent.  Until they caught her, she was providing valuable information to Stan, and she really did want out of the KGB.

I love the idea of Misha seeking asylum!  Philip would see him on TV, it would probably make the news, and the details about Irina, along with the uncanny resemblance,  would certainly catch his attention.  I HOPE Misha wouldn't squeal on his dad, but he might.  I think a former soldier who escaped Russia and was denouncing Russia's involvement with Afghanistan, and Russia itself would get pretty good play on TV and in other press at that time.  First, it wasn't all that common for people to escape, and he would be valuable in a propaganda way.

Having Philip, and even Elizabeth, listening to him talk about how it really is in Russia would be pretty interesting.

They may never actually meet Misha, but he WILL have impact on the Jennings, one way or another.  Philip's been teetering for a long time, and we are finally seeing cracks in Elizabeth too, especially now that she's got that mirror, Paige, demanding truth.  For the first time ever I think Elizabeth is facing the truth of their deeds because she couldn't possibly justify murdering old ladies and all the rest to Paige.  So, in a way, if she can't justify it to Paige, how can she justify it to herself anymore?

That's the real value of Paige's story to me.  The mirror she's holding up to her parents, but especially to Elizabeth, since Paige is now the age Elizabeth was when recruited. 

42 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree.  I never thought Philip meant the Travel Agent's job at all when he was complaining at EST.  And when that guy asked him if his loved ones would love him even if he quit his job.....he had to think about it. lol  He knows Elizabeth is very committed.  

Still, there is more to P & E not wanting to go back to Russia, IMO.  I sense they know that their lives there would not be what they have grown accustomed to.  I'm not sure what they think their lives in Russia would look like......it's not that good. Did you catch that expression by Philip when E asked him if their hometowns had changed. (They were in the bedroom.)  He gave some kind of very pessimistic response as if he did NOT think they had gotten any better.  

I think Philip reads the press about Russia with a more balanced eye than Elizabeth, who, until now, probably had nothing but contempt for American press.  There was a lot of press about the hardships in Russia.  Gulag Archipelago had been published, food lines, all of it was out there to read.  Even if Elizabeth pushed it all from her mind though, some of it seeped in.  She's also got that mirror of hers, Paige, who was horrified at the idea of moving to Russia floating around in her brain.  She's sacrificed a lot for her country, will she really be able to sacrifice her kids as well, now that it's actually happening?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, ToniG said:

See, I took Philip's talk at EST to refer to his real job, the one he can't just quit, not the cover job.

LOL! Of course he was talking about his real job. I got that he wasn't really talking about being a travel agent. I don't think anybody missed that he wasn't really talking about being a travel agent.

55 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

He gave some kind of very pessimistic response as if he did NOT think they had gotten any better.  

That wasn't necessarily pessimistic. It could also be reassuring her that no matter how much it had changed it was still their country. She's scared, for good reason, at the prospect of going home and it's not necessarily just about her fearing that she'd think it was a terrible place. There's often an assumption that all the Russian characters live in fear of having to live in their country but it's not an unlivable place.

Though Elizabeth probably does have fantasies of the place having become even more of a wonderland since they left, but I think she still associates it with a harder life than in the US. She'd miss the perks, of course, but people made the adjustment.

[Hootis]

I expect Mischa will be the final grain of sand that tips the scales enough for Philip.

Consider.  What will The Center think about Mischa showing up and (further) jeopardizing Philip's heart, loyalties and cover?  I think they'll want to disappear him YESTERDAY, and Philip would realize that instantly.  Mischa can't hide forever.

So season 5 might be dealing with the Mischa problem, and season 6....on the run?  From everybody!

[mjc570]

Well, if either Oleg or Arkady needs a good, discreet, experienced secretary in Moscow, there just happens to be such a person available  . . .

[RedHawk]

Whoever it was that helped Misha get out of the asylum, surely they're watching him now. And I don't think they intend for him to run off to the U.S. to find his father.

[Bama]

Maybe Mischa was recruited by the KGB and the stint in the asylum and his dissident behavior is a cover for coming to America as a "defector" like Zinaida; the fake defector from season three that Stan uncovered with Oleg's help.

The Centre obviously wants second generation illegals like Jared and Paige; maybe they did the same thing with Mischa and Irina.

There could be much more to Mischa's journey to America to find his father.

[hellmouse]

Mischa Mischa Mischa! 

I did think it was good that Alice had the baby. Having a baby should help distract Pastor Tim and Alice and keep them from paying as much attention to the Jennings family. 

ETA: Regarding Philip and Elizabeth's conversation about going home. I find it interesting how much Elizabeth is talking about Russia, to Paige and Philip. It's not a lot, but it's a lot more than she used to! I can't imagine Season 1 Elizabeth wondering, out loud, about what Smolensk looks like now.

Edited June 10, 2016 by hellmouse

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Bama said:

Maybe Mischa was recruited by the KGB and the stint in the asylum and his dissident behavior is a cover for coming to America as a "defector" like Zinaida; the fake defector from season three that Stan uncovered with Oleg's help.

The Centre obviously wants second generation illegals like Jared and Paige; maybe they did the same thing with Mischa and Irina.

There could be much more to Mischa's journey to America to find his father.

He was born in Russia, so he's useless as a second generation spy.  Paige is a citizen of the United States.

I think the horses are interesting enough, no need to look for zebras.  He's a kid who, for whatever reason, and the war in Afghanistan was plenty of reason, who disagrees with the USSR, and was naive or shell shocked enough to say it out loud.  He has a chance of escape.  I do think the US would grant him asylum since he would be a wonderful propaganda tool. 

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, Bama said:

The Centre obviously wants second generation illegals like Jared and Paige; maybe they did the same thing with Mischa and Irina.

Mischa isn't a second generation Illegal. He's Russian.

[hellmouse]

36 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He was born in Russia, so he's useless as a second generation spy.  Paige is a citizen of the United States.

I think the horses are interesting enough, no need to look for zebras.  He's a kid who, for whatever reason, and the war in Afghanistan was plenty of reason, who disagrees with the USSR, and was naive or shell shocked enough to say it out loud.  He has a chance of escape.  I do think the US would grant him asylum since he would be a wonderful propaganda tool. 

What if he gets to the US, is granted asylum and gets put on a publicity tour like Zinaida, where he talks about how the war in Afghanistan is bad, oh and by the way I am looking for my father the travel agent. 

I just listened to the Hitfix chat about the episode, and one of them suggested that if Mischa Jr  defects it will create a dilemma for Philip. Does he go back to Russia with his children, or defect and stay in the USA with his child? He does seem to feel some loyalty to Mischa Jr even though he also never totally seemed sure he was real. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by hellmouse

[Chaos Theory]

If I remember correctly; last we heard of Mischa he was a soldier in Afganistan.  Irina talked him up to Philip and made him seem to be such a patriotic guy.  Now we see it is not that simple.  He was in a mental hospital for speaking out against Russia in the Afgan war.  The important people looking out for him are almost definitely the people connected to Philip and Elizabeth.

Mischa is going to be a problem for Elizabeth not just because of the awkwardness of the situation but because he is not a true believer and he will be able to fill Philips and possibly even Paige's mind about what Russia really looks like now....uh then.  Which is the brink of falling apart.

[gwhh]

8 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Izabella

You may be mistaking Oleg's brother who died in Afghanistan with Misha.

 

 

Am I the only one who doesn't need an explanation of Gaad's death. Arkady sent thugs to get info from him. Gaad immediately recognized why they were there and decided to do himself in rather than face that...just as William did.

When you can't get to the cyanide pill you run in front of a bus.

Arkady would not have the rank to order such an operation. Only the top dogs in Moscow could have order an operation that bold.  He could have suggested that operation happened. 

 

Elizabeth home town in the USSR. Was basically level during ww2 there would have been a lot to rebuild after the war. It was also destroyed during ww1 and the French invasion of Russia.   

 

Here real big question.  Would P&E even live together if they went back to the USSR?  They are actually not husband and wife!  Would the center let them stay together?  Would center order them apart to help train the next generation of illegals?  Would they have to get remarried in the USSR to be actually married?  

Edited June 10, 2016 by gwhh

[gwhh]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I know!

I don't trust spies. 

Recent events have proven that you are probably right though, especially Misha surfacing.  Still, he'd kill them all, including Paige and Henry, in a heartbeat if Center told him to do it.  He played William like a fiddle too.  He's manipulative, and being grandfatherly is a huge part of that.  I think he's most honest in the few scenes we've seen him have with Claudia.  That's the only time we really see him not "working" someone. 

Bob Baer, former CIA, said that he often used his mother as cover, usually without telling her.  He also said one of the best covers were babies, no one suspected someone with a baby or toddler. 

Spies are not trustworthy people.  Ha!

Dude, you are so right!   He use to kill people for Stalin and Beria at the drop of a hat.  God, only knows what terrible things he did during world war 2.  To keep the USSR alive!  

Remember the story about arresting his friend. His buddy next stop was a bullet in the head at KGB HQ.  He would kill everyone including the kids in a New York second if ordered to do so.   Or if he thought he had to on his own. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by gwhh

[Bama]

Yeah, I know Mischa isn't a second generation illegal like Jared and Paige.  He's the child of KGB agents like Jared and Paige.

And if The Centre thinks children of their agents are good candidates to be future agents then what's to say they don't think the same about Mischa?

I will be shocked if the show goes the predictable route of "Here's Mischa!  Philip's long lost son!  Who finds him against all odds to be another plot obstacle for Philip and Elizabeth's marriage/family/mission!"

There has to be more to Mischa than that.

[Gella]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Presumably Philip. Somebody seems to have twigged to the fact that this guy actually really cares about this boy so it behooves them to keep him free. The guy at the ward said he guessed those people only just found out he was stuck in there, so maybe they now do spot checks on the kid for Philip's sake.

It's so completely anachronistic it drive me nuts. Henry's been given a much more reasonable haircut--not super feathered like it might have been, but not that thing Matthew has.

I wondered if I was the only person nervous about that. Just stay away from mentions of how your dad is often out of the house at night, Paige. Henry already emphasized all that travel to Stan.

Irina ran from New York and was captured I think in South America so she shouldn't have gone back home at all. Her dad saying she left that before she was arrested made it sound like she was at home. I don't understand where Irina was supposed to be living and keeping herself throughout this kid's life. Her dad seems kind of fond of Philip. Did she explain to him that she lied to him and dumped him because she thought it was important to have this baby in secret rather than just not have it? So he doesn't think he just knocked her up and abandoned them both? And it seems Irina was from Moscow because I think Gabriel said that's where the grandfather lived and presumably they met when Philip came there for his training? I didn't understand if the kid understood that his dad was an Illegal. I suppose he knew his mom was so he knew? They never just sit down and hammer out the details and it seems like they didn't even originally know if the kid was going to be real. Every time he comes up I wish we could never hear of it again, but that's not going to happen now.

Also I agree with whoever mentioned that that kid did not come across like somebody who'd have experienced what he experienced. I really liked him as an individual in the short time we saw him and liked the actor, but he'd been pretty traumatized and was surprisingly warm and healthy-seeming for it.

They didn't think they'd be partnered up as far as we know. All we know is that Irina dumped him, saying she was leaving him for another man. Then later said she lied about that and really was just pregnant. We didn't even know for sure they were both in training to be Illegals, if they were at that time. Philip said something about being put on some committee or something--was he hiding that it was really Illegals training? I don't know. It seemed like they randomly met at a train station which would be unlikely if it was just a coincidence they were both in the program later.

No, she definitely ran from NY. That's where Philip last met her and asked her if any of this story was true.

It's unclear even if she abandoned him. It certainly seemed like she did and I took that as a given, but maybe that's wrong. Was she supposed to be working part-time as a spy, coming in for short missions? She certainly talked to Philip as if she was an Illegal, same as he was. Doesn't seem like there would be that many missions that could be done so quickly. And she didn't say much about her son as an actual person besides him being a loyal soldier, which encouraged the reading that he was fake. 

 

Just speaking about this one aspect of Stan's character I don't have a problem with his hopelessness when it comes to women. I feel like I even read a comment in an interview about his mother dying young. He's terrible with women and works in a boy's club.

So did not care about Pastor Tim and his wife and their baby and Paige. No reason for anybody to be visiting them in the hospital at all, imo. 

The more I think about, I really do hope Henry comes into play more next season. The kid's watching the Superbowl alone while his bff Matthew is watching it across the street alone with his sister? Did Henry want to watch it alone in the hope that his parents were going to watch it with him? I'd almost have thought he'd have given up and gone over there. Has he figured out that Matthew's Paige's friend and not really his? At least it might be hinting that Henry is starting to turn his attention back to his family instead of automatically making plans to watch the game at Stan's. Given his focus on Matthew I wonder how jazzed Henry would be to know he's got a brother who's been in a war and been locked up in a Soviet mental hospital for speaking out against the state? 

But also--and this connects to Stan's immaturity here too--there's again this emphasis from Matthew about getting along with his dad better when he was younger. His souring on sports seemed to be in large part psychological--it was painful now because it reminded him of the father he lost. But it was also then being linked to a sort of childish perspective, especially since he and Paige were having a conversation about seeing their parents as people after basically admitting neither of them cared about the game. Henry was literally the only person actually interested in the Superbowl. Even Stan had work. So there was almost this subtext of Henry being left alone in childhood. Paige talks about wishing she could go back to that time, but in his case it's just lonely because he's getting old enough to notice that people have other concerns. 

Mischa Jr. being in the US really does make it hard for them to go back to the USSR--unless his "friends in high places" would make that okay.

I really hope if he does show up his interest in Philip unlocks that character a bit more and it doesn't just become about how Elizabeth opens herself to him while Philip just smoothly slides into place in the background. I laughed a bit when he asked what Philip was like and Irina's father said he was "a boy...like you." Like admitting that Philip in those flashbacks could not be more generic. Elizabeth's life in Russia is this endless well of motivation and explanation for her. The most detailed bits of Philip's past are about other people.

Here is the thing though: children out of wedlock were extremely rare when I was a kid and even much more so at a time when Misha was supposedly born. Shotgun marriages and subsequent divorces however were MUCH more common, since there was much less stigma attached to that. There is no logical motivation for Irina's character to both have a child and to not marry his father. That whole story is making less and less sense to me. I liked it better when it seemed like the whole "Misha Jr" thing was something to manipulate Philip with. 

I don't know how a documented dissident whose mother is a traitor and whose father is an active KGB officer intends to leave the country in 1984. I suppose if he has enough valyuta (foreign money) he can buy his way out somehow. But even if he did, seems like he really has no clue who his father is. 

My only issue with the show is that it increasingly portrays 1980s Soviet Union like it's 1950s. 

Poor William. That was a nasty way to go. 

Stan's heart is going to be broken.

I am glad Keri Russell will not have to wear that camel coat in every scene anymore. 

[CarpeDiem54]

14 hours ago, RedHawk said:

So is Paige into Matthew or just working him? I can't figure her out. In some ways she may have revived her old crush, and feel a connection with him because they're both going through difficult parental situations. On the other hand, how could she possibly be into a guy with that hairstyle?

Well, since Paige dresses like the Duggars and displays her tiny cross necklace constantly, she probably isn't a stud muffin magnet.

I'll really miss Oleg.  What a delicious man.  And so is Arkady, for that matter.  Yes, I'm shallow.  Poor lonely William. His last scene almost made me cry.

Henry, I'll watch football with you.  Why wasn't he across the street watching with Mathew?  Or did little Paigey Poo Master Spy forbid it?  Bitch.

The Groovyhair Family?  Nauseating.  Maybe they'll both be too tired to cause trouble.

Stan catching the kids cracked me up, which was the only light moment in an otherwise very sad episode.

[millennium]

It's funny.   In spite of their willingness to follow all of the Center's orders, the real test of the Jennings' loyalty may be whether or not they agree to return to Russia.   Despite their heritage, and Elizabeth's occasional carping about our evil government, they have become Americans in almost every way.

And what middle-class American wouldn't say "hell no" upon being told they have to relocate to Russia and return to lives of oppression and deprivation?

I just don't see a white Trans-Am in Red Square.

Thank you, show, for a non-Paige-centric finale.   And for letting the home team score a point for a change.

Edited June 10, 2016 by millennium

[kokapetl]

I don't think Philip's son will be successful in reaching Philip. He's gonna get swindled of his Canadian fortune, and the culture shock will be too much. 

From the end of the episode. The producers really should have chosen a different house. They've covered the other garages up, but there's still 3 front doors  

Edited June 10, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Ina123]

4 hours ago, Bama said:

Yeah, I know Mischa isn't a second generation illegal like Jared and Paige.  He's the child of KGB agents like Jared and Paige.

And if The Centre thinks children of their agents are good candidates to be future agents then what's to say they don't think the same about Mischa?

There has to be more to Mischa than that.

But Jared and Paige were/are not second generation "illegals". They are US citizens and very legal. That is why they are so important to the KGB.

No matter what happens, for Misha to stay in the US, he will have to either defect as a Soviet and be granted asylum or steal a dead baby's identity.

[Ina123]

5 hours ago, gwhh said:

Arkady would not have the rank to order such an operation (the Gaad thugs). Only the top dogs in Moscow could have order an operation that bold.  He could have suggested that operation happened. 

 

Maybe he didn't order it, but he definitely knew about it because he got off the phone and was disturbed. Someone, maybe Nina or Oleg, asked what was bothering him. He answered "a job had gone wrong" or something like that.

[AllyB]

I've had the feeling all season of events literally closing in around the Jennings. The show was originally centred on numerous sub-plots and important secondary characters other than the Jennings and Stan, characters that the audience genuinely cared for. There was Nina, Martha, Gaad, Arkady, and, from season 2, Oleg. But in this season Nina and Gaad have died, Martha has been sent to Russia and hasn't been seen again and now Arkady and Oleg are leaving. Additionally we aren't seeing any of Stan's personal life outside of how it relates to the Jennings. It's making the show seem more claustrophobic as most episodes now are increasingly about the Jennings or Stan and Aderholt hard at the work of foiling them. I know we may still see Oleg and Arkady, and I really, really hope we do. But I can feel that everything is coming to an end for Philip and Elizabeth, because everything around them is ending.

 I think that's why he was vulnerable to Nina after the KGB caught her and made her a double/triple agent.  Until they caught her, she was providing valuable information to Stan, and she really did want out of the KGB.

 

The KGB never caught Nina, they had no idea she had been compromised by Stan. She turned herself in out of loyalty to Russia and offered herself as a triple agent. Because of that, she was able to let Arkady know at the end of season 1 that the FBI were about to make a big capture. And Arkady literally rolled his sleeves up and sent out all the embassy cars with the abort signal painted on them (pretty much where we all started to love Arkady) which meant Philip was able to save Elizabeth in the season climax.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, gwhh said:

Here real big question.  Would P&E even live together if they went back to the USSR?  They are actually not husband and wife!  Would the center let them stay together?  Would center order them apart to help train the next generation of illegals?  Would they have to get remarried in the USSR to be actually married?  

I don't see why the Centre would try to separate them if they went back to Russia. They have children together and have been living as a married couple for decades, and tearing the family apart would serve no purpose other than to alienate them. As for a new marriage ceremony, I think that would be their choice.

6 hours ago, Bama said:

Yeah, I know Mischa isn't a second generation illegal like Jared and Paige.  He's the child of KGB agents like Jared and Paige.

And if The Centre thinks children of their agents are good candidates to be future agents then what's to say they don't think the same about Mischa?

I will be shocked if the show goes the predictable route of "Here's Mischa!  Philip's long lost son!  Who finds him against all odds to be another plot obstacle for Philip and Elizabeth's marriage/family/mission!"

There has to be more to Mischa than that.

I tend to agree. I would be shocked if we actually got a straightforward soapy plot about Mischa showing up on their doorstep and causing family drama. I expect it to be more complicated than that, starting with how/whether Mischa would even get to America or find Philip in the first place. 

[babyPhat279]

I don't think it really makes sense that Gabriel left this decision up to them. If they decide to stay now with higher chances of getting caught, they could potentially give up a lot of secret information. I would think he would simply order them back to the USSR, but I guess the writers need an "out" to keep the show going in the US. Though I do think it would be very interesting to see them trying to adjust to life back home.

It's funny how every time EST comes up there's some long explanation of what it is. Maybe at the time there was too much of a stigma to just say that EST is a form of group therapy.

So are we supposed to think Mischa Jr. is anti communism, or just anti fighting in Afghanistan, like how a lot of Americans were anti fighting in Vietnam?

[Milburn Stone]

Every time the subject of the Jennings being repatriated to Russia comes up, I find it fascinating to wonder what Philip and Elizabeth would actually do there. We know they'll be made comfortable (or at least that's the promise Gabriel implies in this episode, as he implied to Martha), but the Soviets will need to give them something to do, and unfortunately I can imagine what it is. Namely, their considerable undercover skills will be put to work rooting out domestic dissenters. In other words, they will be aggressors against people like Philip's very own son. (Although they don't know yet that Mischa Jr. was in a gulag,) I don't see either one of them defining that work as following their bliss.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, gwhh said:

Here real big question.  Would P&E even live together if they went back to the USSR?  They are actually not husband and wife!  Would the center let them stay together?  Would center order them apart to help train the next generation of illegals?  Would they have to get remarried in the USSR to be actually married?  

People could get married in the USSR. There's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to live together.

8 hours ago, Bama said:

And if The Centre thinks children of their agents are good candidates to be future agents then what's to say they don't think the same about Mischa?

 

Because the whole reason Jared and Paige are considered good candidates is because they have American citizenship as well as connections to the KGB. Sure Mischa might be considered a good candidate, but he'd be just another Russian with parents in the KGB.

7 hours ago, Gella said:

That whole story is making less and less sense to me. I liked it better when it seemed like the whole "Misha Jr" thing was something to manipulate Philip with. 

Me too. So much.

6 hours ago, millennium said:

Despite their heritage, and Elizabeth's occasional carping about our evil government, they have become Americans in almost every way.

But what does that mean? Of course their lives in the US are more comfortable, but plenty of people are capable of relocating back to their home country after many years despite the standard of living not being the same. It bears remembering, also, that Philip and Elizabeth already live under their oppressive government as did William. They've never been free. The Trans Am is just a car.

Here's another way they could go with Mischa at least along the way. If the Centre learns he's left the country they might assume he's trying to find Philip (perhaps they get this info out of people). If they're looking to capture him they might ask Elizabeth to keep an eye out. Basically say look, this guy might come looking for Philip and he's wanted by the government. We're not putting Philip in the position of turning him in, and we're not asking you to capture or kill him, just keep an eye out. That would lay out Elizabeth's loyalties pretty clearly, because she'd be facing a situation where she's got orders to follow that are perfectly reasonable according to her previous views, and in fact are in line with some of her desires since she doesn't even want this guy to exist, and they might even suggest Philip wouldn't even know that she did it. Yet she'd be totally betraying him. That could be something that would make Elizabeth go against orders and help him hide the guy or whatever.

[kokapetl]

They could train spies. Or run a travel agency, assuming those existed in the USSR. 

[Chaos Theory]

30 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

They could train spies. Or run a travel agency, assuming those existed in the USSR. 

Gregory was offered a teaching position. My guess would be P&E would get something similar but slightly better.   They would have a good life by Russian standards.  

As for Mischa he will be the cold water on Elizabeth's dreams on what Russia has become.  She has wondered how much Russia has built itself up in their absense and has comforted herself that all the bad things they have done has made the world a better place.  I think Mischa will be there to show that it hasn't.  Everything Elizabeth has done has been for nothing.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[wendyg]

chocolatine: I'd expect their answering machine to be in their bedroom, away from curious eavesdropping children. And I think it actually is. I had my first answering machine by 1976 (and one time when my apartment got burgled around then the thief actually stole it!).

Darrenbrett: One reason I instinctively don't fully trust Gabe is that the first thing I ever saw Frank Langella do was DIARY OF A MAD HOUSEWIFE, in which he played the main character's lover - sexually compelling to her, but cold and manipulative. And also, I think because every character in this show has secrets, it's very hard to know whom to trust at any given moment - and that's obvious deliberate on the part of the writers. So there's no character you can regard as fully predictable/trustworthy. Gabe is on their side, for now, but in a conflict with TPTB which way he'll fall is unclear.

[Clanstarling]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 7:11 AM, TV Anonymous said:

If William was in such a delirium state when he talked about 'American Dream', why was he still speaking English? When one is no longer able to control the stream of one's consciousness, would the mother's tongue not prevail?

Having personal experience with just this situation, thought I'd chime in. My mother, who left her native country at 29 - but did not stop speaking her mother tongue (we'd converse in it regularly), did not revert to it on her deathbed. The few, nonsensical, words she spoke were in English.

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 8:42 AM, Umbelina said:

Oh!  I also meant to say that the only really unrealistic thing I caught was that nurses were dressed in gloves, paper masks, and surgical covers.

Yeah no.  Wouldn't they all be in Hazmat suits for that dangerous a contamination? 

I thought that too, but then I wondered if what we are used to seeing (given Ebola, etc.), was not commonly used back then. Seems unlikely, but I don't know anything about decontamination procedures during that period. I also wondered why William wouldn't have kept the glass vial in the protective container he put it into prior to leaving his apartment.

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, wendyg said:

chocolatine: I'd expect their answering machine to be in their bedroom, away from curious eavesdropping children. And I think it actually is. I had my first answering machine by 1976 (and one time when my apartment got burgled around then the thief actually stole it!).

But Paige said she had checked the messages.  So she's either now allowed to go into their bedroom to do so, or it's an over sight.

[FormerMod-a1]

For operations though, they always talked in code on the phone (e.g. the package is waiting at the post office, you left the dry cleaning in the office) , even the person calling, not just the Jennings.  So it wouldn't be a big deal of the kids overheard or it was left as a message etc.  Therefore I have no problem with Paige checking messages.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

But Paige said she had checked the messages.  So she's either now allowed to go into their bedroom to do so, or it's an over sight.

And I think we heard Philip check them in the kitchen at the end of S1. I think this is like Elizabeth telling Henry to look in the garage last week. A lot of people saw it as a set up for some security breach but it's not.

Another thought about Mischa Jr., it's possible that while he sees the War in Afghanistan as being badly run, he might still see the Illegals as heroes.

[hellmouse]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Another thought about Mischa Jr., it's possible that while he sees the War in Afghanistan as being badly run, he might still see the Illegals as heroes.

That's very true. It seemed to be how Oleg and even Oleg's father thought about the war, but I am sure both of them would see the illegals as doing important and necessary work for the USSR. 

[curbcrusher]

Well into Page 5 of the episode and a lot of good comments, so some thoughts:

1) Phillip Jr.: I Really didn't like this being introduced, but hey. Everyone has speculated that the "important people" are related P&E, Gabe, etc. However, Phillip Jr, if Gabe is to be believed, served admirably in Afghanistan, and came home. There is no reason not to think that some senior officer that he impressed during his service didn't intervene as a favor to one of his troops that may have gone off a bit.  I find that more believable than Gabe intervening.

1a) I really don't have a hard time believing that Phillip Jr. will start looking for dad only knowing that he is a travel agent in America. When I was growing up and we lived in other countries I can't count the number of times that people asked if we knew their uncle that had immigrated to the States and lived in New York. When you responded that you had moved from (North Carolina, Florida, Texas, etc) they would say something like "He has a carpet shop, surely you know him."  It is a common human trait to impose your own neighborhood view on the world. Based on my limited knowledge of the USSR at that time, there were travel agents there, but they were all official and controlled by the government, so a limited number. Considering this as his world view, I don't have a problem with Phillip Jr. thinking that finding a travel agent will be easy.

2) Stan the imbecile. -- I think something about Stan that is interesting is that he is not a  career counter-intelligence agent. He, and it seems like most of the office, are FBI agents that happen to be assigned to counter-intelligence. So while his undercover gig with the skinheads is great experience, it is more aligned with being a spy vs hunting spies. I can't point to sources, but a piece of knowledge that I seem to remember from my reading during my half-century on this earth is that one of the "problems" through the years with American counter-intelligence is that we are amateurs, for exactly this kind of reason. The FBI considers agents interchangeable and  that is not always the case.

3) Stan the sexist imbecile. -- Basically, him and his make out dance conversation with Phillip. I have a teen-age daughter, and she says she's not dating until she's 25, so I haven't had stories about her shared with me. But,  I've heard similar stories from dad's of boys her age. It just adds another boy to the list that I warn her about.

4) Paige and Matt -- I don't think Paige is "working" Matt. I am buying this story as "young star crossed lovers." I basically think this because Paige's understanding of her parents job to date is that the collect information. I'm sure it has not crossed her mind that her mom and dad exploit people though the use of sex for any of that information. Her offer to collect info from Matt was to hang out and talk with him. I think the smooching session was a something that developed as they shared their fears and concerns about their parents.

[panthergirl13]

11 hours ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

Stan catching the kids cracked me up, which was the only light moment in an otherwise very sad episode.

And I found it really kind of disturbing... maybe in light of the Stanford rapist's dad's comments (not applicable here, I know) it felt like "Hey my son is gonna score!!" and I didn't think Phillip would share his enthusiasm regardless of the subtext. It grossed me out.

Edited June 10, 2016 by panthergirl13

[panthergirl13]

I can't find the original post, but someone here commented that they should have defined est as "group therapy'. I never heard anyone associated with est call it that. I got roped into doing est 2.0 in the late 80s when they changed the name to The Forum and again... never ever did they think of it or refer to it as group therapy. It was supposed to be about self-realization, self-actualization, dropping your "sidewalk act", using a ton of jargon and annoying the shit out of your friends by trying to get them to "commit" to attend (proud to say I never did this). In truth, it was an ingenious multi-level marketing scheme and still exists today.  That's not to say it didn't have some value for me and for others I knew (a good friend did it instead of AA to quit drinking and it worked for him). But it was absolutely not group therapy.

[Chaos Theory]

38 minutes ago, panthergirl13 said:

And I found it really kind of disturbing... maybe in light of the Stanford rapist's dad's comments (not applicable here, I know) it felt like "Hey my son is gonna score!!" and I didn't think Phillip would share his enthusiasm regardless of the subtext. It grossed me out.

The reason I didn't find it creepy and kind of humorous actually was because I don't think it had anything to do with sex.  Even in Stan's mind it was less "my son gettin some!" And more "Hey you free Friday for the wedding?  You pay my backyard."   He was overjoyed at the thought of his son marrying the daughter of his best friend. It was actually Philip who made it "creepy" because he was thinking his daughter had seduced Mathew for them.

[Gella]

P&E would get a nice apartment somewhere in Moscow (if that's what they choose), possibly a dacha, their kids would be enrolled into one of the specialised English language schools for easier transition, they would be given a car, and teaching jobs. Or desk jobs in Lubyanka. I am sure they were paid salaries all this time so there might be a hefty balance in Sberbank too. They would certainly have a comfortable life style. It would require some adjustment for them, but they've lived in the Soviet Union in a much worse time, so I can't imagine they wouldn't adjust. Life was harder in some aspects, but not impossible, and for some people in privileged positions it was even very very comfortable. 

As far as Paige and especially Henry, that would be complicated but people emigrate with teenage kids all the time, so that would not give any of their handlers a second thought. 

I think the real problem is that Philip has become somewhat more ambivalent and cynical about the whole thing than anyone expected him to be. He is also more invested in the comfort and happiness of his kids than his handlers counted on. He may still be a "patriot" but he is no longer a true believer. 

[Umbelina]

8 hours ago, AllyB said:

I've had the feeling all season of events literally closing in around the Jennings. The show was originally centred on numerous sub-plots and important secondary characters other than the Jennings and Stan, characters that the audience genuinely cared for. There was Nina, Martha, Gaad, Arkady, and, from season 2, Oleg. But in this season Nina and Gaad have died, Martha has been sent to Russia and hasn't been seen again and now Arkady and Oleg are leaving. Additionally we aren't seeing any of Stan's personal life outside of how it relates to the Jennings. It's making the show seem more claustrophobic as most episodes now are increasingly about the Jennings or Stan and Aderholt hard at the work of foiling them. I know we may still see Oleg and Arkady, and I really, really hope we do. But I can feel that everything is coming to an end for Philip and Elizabeth, because everything around them is ending.

The KGB never caught Nina, they had no idea she had been compromised by Stan. She turned herself in out of loyalty to Russia and offered herself as a triple agent. Because of that, she was able to let Arkady know at the end of season 1 that the FBI were about to make a big capture. And Arkady literally rolled his sleeves up and sent out all the embassy cars with the abort signal painted on them (pretty much where we all started to love Arkady) which meant Philip was able to save Elizabeth in the season climax.

You are so right about everything closing in around them.  I think Arkady being recalled, and Oleg running for his life (because no way the FBI wouldn't blackmail him into disclosing more now, Stan or no Stan) as well as Nina's stories are so believable.  Martha?  Well, obviously the KGB went to a lot of trouble to keep Philip happy there, so I can buy that one too, although not "she will be treated like a hero."

Dang, I really thought they caught her!  That settles it, I'm going to buy the DVD's and watch it all again.  She did turn on her own after Stan killed her friend Vlad!  duh.  Thanks!

7 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

I don't think it really makes sense that Gabriel left this decision up to them. If they decide to stay now with higher chances of getting caught, they could potentially give up a lot of secret information. I would think he would simply order them back to the USSR, but I guess the writers need an "out" to keep the show going in the US. Though I do think it would be very interesting to see them trying to adjust to life back home.

It's funny how every time EST comes up there's some long explanation of what it is. Maybe at the time there was too much of a stigma to just say that EST is a form of group therapy.

So are we supposed to think Mischa Jr. is anti communism, or just anti fighting in Afghanistan, like how a lot of Americans were anti fighting in Vietnam?

They don't have that much useful information though, especially, as seemed likely from Gabe's decision to run, Gabe isn't around to give up.  They know the KGB got that Jewish scientist, but other than that?  They seem very compartmentalized, don't know much about other agents.  Well, the telephone lady, but she's probably already relocated.  The FBI already knows there are illegals in the USA operating for the KGB. 

I would love the chance to see the whole family adjusting to life in the USSR but I doubt we'll see that.  Maybe! 

I think Misha is fed up with all of it.  The war, the lies, the government.

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Every time the subject of the Jennings being repatriated to Russia comes up, I find it fascinating to wonder what Philip and Elizabeth would actually do there. We know they'll be made comfortable (or at least that's the promise Gabriel implies in this episode, as he implied to Martha), but the Soviets will need to give them something to do, and unfortunately I can imagine what it is. Namely, their considerable undercover skills will be put to work rooting out domestic dissenters. In other words, they will be aggressors against people like Philip's very own son. (Although they don't know yet that Mischa Jr. was in a gulag,) I don't see either one of them defining that work as following their bliss.

Training, especially briefing spies about what America is really like, propaganda speeches, possibly other operations but more of an in and out rather than embedding.  For example, and American couple on vacation in various other countries,  to meet with other spies, carry material, etc.  Rooting out dissenters?  Possibly that branch of the KGB, but will the show go that far?  They could.

Misha was in a hospital, locked in yes, but hardly a forced labor Gulag. 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Here's another way they could go with Mischa at least along the way. If the Centre learns he's left the country they might assume he's trying to find Philip (perhaps they get this info out of people). If they're looking to capture him they might ask Elizabeth to keep an eye out. Basically say look, this guy might come looking for Philip and he's wanted by the government. We're not putting Philip in the position of turning him in, and we're not asking you to capture or kill him, just keep an eye out. That would lay out Elizabeth's loyalties pretty clearly, because she'd be facing a situation where she's got orders to follow that are perfectly reasonable according to her previous views, and in fact are in line with some of her desires since she doesn't even want this guy to exist, and they might even suggest Philip wouldn't even know that she did it. Yet she'd be totally betraying him. That could be something that would make Elizabeth go against orders and help him hide the guy or whatever.

That would be horrible, and could happen as well.  Only if Irina left him more instructions about how to find Philip though. 

I keep thinking that he could get out, very hard, but not impossible, and the money and passports could help him.  We don't know if he has any language skills, but he seemed to talk things over with some from Afghanistan, although that could have been in Russian.  My friend spoke several languages, and was originally intending to escape through areas around the Black Sea.  Misha's German passport seems to imply that way, although maybe not, since he could use that anywhere, or the Canadian one, even in Turkey or Iran, etc.

I think it's more likely that after he crosses any border, he gives himself up to a US Embassy though.  I think he'd be considered a great anti-soviet propaganda tool by Reagan's government.  That would also be an easy way for Philip to realize his kid is in the United States, and that his son hates the Soviet Union.  Or if he's killed escaping, I'm sure Philip knows his name, just being aware of his son's death could change things.

So many ways to go!

 

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

For operations though, they always talked in code on the phone (e.g. the package is waiting at the post office, you left the dry cleaning in the office) , even the person calling, not just the Jennings.  So it wouldn't be a big deal of the kids overheard or it was left as a message etc.  Therefore I have no problem with Paige checking messages.

Yeah, the answering machine is not an issue.  It's not like a Russian accent comes on and says "meet me at the corner of 5th and Franklin at 2AM, and bring the plans!"

2 hours ago, curbcrusher said:

Well into Page 5 of the episode and a lot of good comments, so some thoughts:

1) Phillip Jr.: I Really didn't like this being introduced, but hey. Everyone has speculated that the "important people" are related P&E, Gabe, etc. However, Phillip Jr, if Gabe is to be believed, served admirably in Afghanistan, and came home. There is no reason not to think that some senior officer that he impressed during his service didn't intervene as a favor to one of his troops that may have gone off a bit.  I find that more believable than Gabe intervening.

1a) I really don't have a hard time believing that Phillip Jr. will start looking for dad only knowing that he is a travel agent in America. When I was growing up and we lived in other countries I can't count the number of times that people asked if we knew their uncle that had immigrated to the States and lived in New York. When you responded that you had moved from (North Carolina, Florida, Texas, etc) they would say something like "He has a carpet shop, surely you know him."  It is a common human trait to impose your own neighborhood view on the world. Based on my limited knowledge of the USSR at that time, there were travel agents there, but they were all official and controlled by the government, so a limited number. Considering this as his world view, I don't have a problem with Phillip Jr. thinking that finding a travel agent will be easy.

2) Stan the imbecile. -- I think something about Stan that is interesting is that he is not a  career counter-intelligence agent. He, and it seems like most of the office, are FBI agents that happen to be assigned to counter-intelligence. So while his undercover gig with the skinheads is great experience, it is more aligned with being a spy vs hunting spies. I can't point to sources, but a piece of knowledge that I seem to remember from my reading during my half-century on this earth is that one of the "problems" through the years with American counter-intelligence is that we are amateurs, for exactly this kind of reason. The FBI considers agents interchangeable and  that is not always the case.

3) Stan the sexist imbecile. -- Basically, him and his make out dance conversation with Phillip. I have a teen-age daughter, and she says she's not dating until she's 25, so I haven't had stories about her shared with me. But,  I've heard similar stories from dad's of boys her age. It just adds another boy to the list that I warn her about.

4) Paige and Matt -- I don't think Paige is "working" Matt. I am buying this story as "young star crossed lovers." I basically think this because Paige's understanding of her parents job to date is that the collect information. I'm sure it has not crossed her mind that her mom and dad exploit people though the use of sex for any of that information. Her offer to collect info from Matt was to hang out and talk with him. I think the smooching session was a something that developed as they shared their fears and concerns about their parents.

Loved your post, but as to the 4th part?

I think it's both.  She's working him, and that's why Philip was so completely upset, and why he said "You have NO idea!"  He was picturing Elizabeth's honey traps.  Paige is already reporting information to them about the Jennings, and she was told not to do that.  Philip was horrified, not that his daughter was kissing a boy, he already told her she could be friends with Mathew if that's all it was.  His horror was that his daughter was already starting down that spy path.  He never believed she'd only be used for access to some secret place, as Elizabeth is deluding herself into believing.  Their spying is already corrupting his daughter, and she's following in their footsteps.

It was that mirror again.  THIS is what you really do!  Do you want that for your child?  You can't tell her the truth she's asking for, because the truth is too horrible to put into words.  Without Paige being involved would they have this much reflection on their actions?  Not a chance.  Not even EST is as powerful as looking into your baby's eyes and trying to find a way to tell the unspeakable details of truth of what they have done as soldiers for their government.  With Mathew?  That truth is beginning to repeat itself in their child, and do they really want their lives to be her life? 

 

ETA the podcast this week as Keri and Mathew and both showrunners on this week, and they discuss the Paige/Mathew situation first.  http://cdn.panoply.fm/SM4181976948.mp3

Edited June 10, 2016 by Umbelina
Nina is not Irina

[Mrs peel]

37 minutes ago, Gella said:

P&E would get a nice apartment somewhere in Moscow (if that's what they choose), possibly a dacha, their kids would be enrolled into one of the specialised English language schools for easier transition, they would be given a car, and teaching jobs. Or desk jobs in Lubyanka. I am sure they were paid salaries all this time so there might be a hefty balance in Sberbank too. They would certainly have a comfortable life style. It would require some adjustment for them, but they've lived in the Soviet Union in a much worse time, so I can't imagine they wouldn't adjust. Life was harder in some aspects, but not impossible, and for some people in privileged positions it was even very very comfortable. 

As far as Paige and especially Henry, that would be complicated but people emigrate with teenage kids all the time, so that would not give any of their handlers a second thought. 

I think the real problem is that Philip has become somewhat more ambivalent and cynical about the whole thing than anyone expected him to be. He is also more invested in the comfort and happiness of his kids than his handlers counted on. He may still be a "patriot" but he is no longer a true believer. 

Philip has always seen the "good" in the USA.  I actually think it's Elizabeth who now has become ambivalent.  In the first or second season, she would have jumped at the change to return to the USSR.  This is the woman who previously reported on Philip as being squishy on their work.  I think her being conflicted about the Young Hee situation and agreeing to ask if there was an alternative that didn't hurt her friend is an outward sign of that.

[AllyB]

7 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

It's funny how every time EST comes up there's some long explanation of what it is. Maybe at the time there was too much of a stigma to just say that EST is a form of group therapy.

I don't know why Elizabeth was explaining what EST was to Paige. Last season Stan brought Tori to dinner with the Jennings and the conversation turned to EST. It was clear that Paige knew what it was, had an idea of what went on there and she even said she had previously discussed it with Philip. The conversation between Elizabeth should have been more that Paige was surprised that EST was genuinely something that Philip was genuinely interested in and not just going along to for Stan.

[curbcrusher]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I think it's both.  She's working him, and that's why Philip was so completely upset, and why he said "You have NO idea!"  He was picturing Elizabeth's honey traps.  Paige is already reporting information to them about the Jennings, and she was told not to do that.  Philip was horrified, not that his daughter was kissing a boy, he already told her she could be friends with Mathew if that's all it was.  His horror was that his daughter was already starting down that spy path.

I may be picking a nit, but to me that is the conflict that the writers introduced.

1) Phillip is freaking out. "My daughter is honey trapping the kid next door. oh crap!"

2) Paige does not get the freak out. She doesn't know what a honey trap is, she certainly would not imagine her mom being someone that executed a honey trap. It's not like they started spy training 101 the day they told her about being spies. She probably has no idea what a dead drop is, microdots, radio codes, etc. She has been pretty much told the same thing that Pastor Tim was told, they are information gatherers.

3) The conflict is that Paige did what her parents said. She got to be better friends with Mathew and made a connection. She doesn't see this as advancing down the spy path, its just a normal progression of figuring out she's attracted to the boy.

4) I guess what I'm saying is Paige's motivation: I like Mathew and want to kiss him.  Philip's interpretation of Paige's motivation: "Oh my Lenin, you're trying to set a honey trap."  I think Philip is wrong, and his reaction to the incorrect motivation is probably going to be the catalyst for problems next season.

[Umbelina]

I really think Paige was kissing him (both times) as a way to make him closer to her so she could get more information from him.  Right before it happened, she was digging for information.  Also, she ran back to tell her mom about the whole secretary was KGB thing.

She may not know the definition of honey trap, but yes, I do think that was a baby steps version of that technique.  "If he cares for me he will tell me more about his dad's spy stuff!"

I think this Vulture recap said it well, and much more of course.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/06/paige-jennings-and-the-future-of-the-americans.html

Quote

But now it’s January of 1984, and Paige Jennings is no longer completely in the dark. She knows exactly who her parents are, what they do, and, to an extent, how dangerous their work can be — 0nly to an extent. Philip — aware that Paige feels an increasing sense of responsibility to report back to her parents on what’s happening at the FBI agent’s house across the street, and also aware that his daughter has been getting it on with the FBI agent’s son — can see the transformation she’s undergone. He knows that Paige, a young woman now interested in self-defense and slowly learning she can use her sexuality to get men to open up to her, is inching ever closer to becoming her mother. And he doesn’t like it. “Don’t do this, Paige,” he tells her. “You have no idea. No idea.”

 

ETA, this article shows how every season ending involves Paige, that indeed, Paige is key to everything about the Jennings, and family, not just their marriage, is the focus of this show, and probably will influence the ending of the series.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Umbelina

[Chaos Theory]

Curbcrusher/ Umbelina:  I think you are both right.  Which is what makes it so fascinating.   "Mom, what's a honeytrap?"  "Its what you are doing with Mathew dear?" "I am kissing Mathew because I like him.  Sometimes he tells me stuff.  He talks a lot.  Do all boys talk a lot when they kiss you?"  "Yes dear."  "Is that a honey trap?"  "Yes dear."  "Oh."  

[Gella]

I find it very hard to believe that the idea of her parents sleeping with other people for information has crossed Paige's mind. Yes, she probably thinks if she kisses Matthew he might tell her more but she also clearly likes him. To Phillip though it's all coloured through the lens of his experience, so he is projecting himself onto her motivations. 

My issue with the whole Misha subplot is that it smacks of melodrama and contrivance. We have an already pretty difficult scenario of two embedded spies who BOTH have dark personal histories. And they also somehow end up living right next door to an FBI agent who is actively looking for them. And their kids are of appropriate ages to have crushes on each other. I can hand wave that. Fine. But now we have Phillip's tragic love affair with a fellow spy in the academy who kept him a secret from her own parents (somewhat atypically for russians), secretly had his baby, that baby just happened to deploy to Afghanistan (not every conscripted 18 year old ended up deploying there)  and not only came back disillusioned but actively engaged in dissident activities and now is actively seeking to leave the country and go look for his long lost father. Who as far as he knows is a die hard KGB agent and would likely turn him.

It's just all too much. 

[Umbelina]

Afghanistan was Russia's Vietnam though.  (now it's ours again)

Anyway, I don't have to fan wank that some nobody kid got sent to Afghanistan when he probably would have that happen.  Hell, Oleg's brother even died there, and their family was connected and well to do.

I agree the Irina side of things is vague, but again, why wouldn't it be?  She didn't have time to tell Philip all the details, but she told him the important ones.

Is it a stretch for Misha to be a dissident?  Well, when you consider the whole government falls soon, meh, not really, obviously there were plenty of unhappy people.

Now, his escape?  People did escape, and his mom left him a leg up on that with the cast and the passports.  We don't know where that story is going though, he could fail, he could be killed, anything could happen really.  I think it WILL, no matter what happens, have an important impact on Philip though.  Frankly, I'm looking forward to finding out which way this will all go.  Will Misha be the final straw for Philip?  Maybe.

So, for me, it is much too soon to call this new plot a soap opera.  I trust these writers.

No one is saying that it's come into Paige's mind that her parents seduce others for information.  Of course not.  She's naturally using Mathew though, both for the thrill of the new kiss, and because she loved telling her parents what her own spying revealed.  She's now, IMO, doing both, kissing him because she likes him (which frankly is problematic alone!) and digging for information, which we saw her do both times she's kissed Mathew.

If they actually fell in love, as hormonal teenagers are prone to do?  She has much more to confide than Mathew.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, curbcrusher said:

4) I guess what I'm saying is Paige's motivation: I like Mathew and want to kiss him.  Philip's interpretation of Paige's motivation: "Oh my Lenin, you're trying to set a honey trap."  I think Philip is wrong, and his reaction to the incorrect motivation is probably going to be the catalyst for problems next season.

I don't think he's completely wrong, though. The conversation ended with Paige still thinking she was the one who was right in thinking she should get close to Matthew. Even if she's not thinking "I'll kiss him so that he'll give me more info" (which I don't think she is) she's definitely thinking that this relationship could get her information that she'd report back to her parents. I imagine she's got a lot of things mixed up there together. Not only is she attracted to the romance because it might help her parents, I think she's also attracted to the spying because it keeps her from having to go all in on the romance. She also thinks she can plan to do both without the one infecting the other.

Her parents, as usual, were pretty bad at laying things out for her. They just stressed that she didn't have to worry and she shouldn't do anything because of them, speaking purely from the perspective of wanting her to be free and not tainted by their work--speaking out of guilt. They didn't say "Look, your father gets information from Stan if he's going to drop it. We know Henry's over there a lot but so far it hasn't been a problem. We don't want you working Matthew because it's unhealthy for you and also because where you think it's dangerous for Henry to be hanging around with Stan you are actually the bigger threat here if you're trying to gather information. There's a reason your father doesn't ask about Stan's work as his friend. You think you're the safer bet because you know the truth and Henry doesn't, but really it's the opposite." Paige's parents have incredibly high standards when it comes to their deceptions and Paige doesn't. They're lucky she hasn't started asking her history teacher a ton of pointed questions about the USSR in class. Or maybe she has.

And what's funny is Henry and Paige are pretty much even on the score of saying things to the Beemans. Henry dropped the "My dad's always traveling--right now both my parents are on a last-minute trip out of town overnight." Paige underscored that with Dad working late a lot for a while, to the point where she thought he was having an affair. All of those things are actually referring to spy work. 

One other note, it's funny to realize just how much more overworked Philip seems to be. Both the kids recognize him as the guy who's never around, which is true because he's the one who not only had more time intensive operations (Martha was two nights a week) but he seems to almost always be the one running out when the phone rings. It's not that Elizabeth is never shown to do that too, but it's more often Philip. 

3 minutes ago, Gella said:

But now we have Phillip's tragic love affair with a fellow spy in the academy who kept him a secret from her own parents (somewhat atypically for russians), secretly had his baby, that baby just happened to deploy to Afghanistan (not every conscripted 18 year old ended up deploying there)  and not only came back disillusioned but actively engaged in dissident activities and now is actively seeking to leave the country and go look for his long lost father. Who as far as he knows is a die hard KGB agent and would likely turn him.

Yes, it really pushes it over into the realm of "Oh, come on!" You'd think this kid having lived his entire life and still living in Russia and having never met his father would keep them apart but no. I wasn't sure how much Irina kept him a secret from her parents. Her father talked about his wife calling him over to watch them kiss in the street, so they knew she was seeing somebody, but they never met the guy?  I remember hearing a Russian once say just as you do, that that would be unusual. Not because Russian dads are protective of their daughters but because everybody would be totally nosy. It also brings up more questions of logistics. So Irina was living at home at the time? While they were in training together?

The Prometheus Disc plot on General Hospital, the one with the Russian Illegal? Is actually far far less ridiculous by comparison. Having the guy whose identity the Russian Illegal stole show up a couple years later as a bit of a maniac (the murder didn't take...) is actually easier for me to swallow than Philip managing to get saddled with this relentlessly conflict-creating ex and son while still a teenager. Even if the individual elements of the story are totally possible the whole thing together in this story--wtf.