S08.E09: December: Berkshires County

[PickleDeeDee]

On June 2, 2016 at 9:11 AM, chewycandy said:

The wallpaper..."that's the mark of a wealthy person!"

I couldn't help but giggle thinking of Jules calling her interior decorator and saying 
"I need wealthy person closet wallpaper, STAT!"  

[NewDigs]

Carole actually redeemed herself a bit with that comment. I laughed out loud. Her delivery was so earnest. Otherwise, she's lost me.

I'm seriously tired of these women being so far up B's ass. Though Ramona telling everyone, over and over, to, Suck it up! Suck it up! was funny it was, imho, misguided. She should have been handing out pitchforks and torches.

[PickleDeeDee]

On June 2, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Straycat80 said:

What are those green statutes that look like Ninja turtles on the mantle in Dorinda's dining room?

 

They are statues of Chinese Zodiac, https://www.chairish.com/product/40321/chinese-zodiac-figures  hers are like these.   I have found a reproduction copy in cream white but not nearly as nice, I LOVE them, but not all the TWOP'ers loved them like I do so YMMV.  Here are the reproductions I found but no longer available on this site: https://www.kathykuohome.com/Product/Detail/599-Chinese-Ming-Dynasty-Ceramic-Zodiac-Figurines-Set-of

Edited June 4, 2016 by PickleDeeDee
to add urls for zodiac set

[Higgins]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 7:37 PM, shoegal said:

Carole was speaking of the term "Indian", which is considered to be an offensive term, versus the proper term of Native American.  Asian is the proper term, the offending term for Asian would be "Oriental".  Doesn't seem inconsistent. 

I was a little taken aback when Carole made the Asian reference, because I wasn't aware that Asians bring games. Learn something new every day!

Who considers Indian an offensive term?

http://www.nativetimes.com/index.php/life/commentary/11389-native-american-vs-american-indian-political-correctness-dishonors-traditional-chiefs-of-old

[Higgins]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 8:25 PM, rehoboth said:

"I decorated, I cooked, I made it nice!"

 

This year's t-shirt.

I'm sure Bravo.com will be all over your idea.

[Bronzedog]

A Congressman gave me one of those zodiac figurines years ago and I just learned from reading about it on this board what it is.  DUH!  It also shows how much I liked it, I guess.

[bichonblitz]

2 hours ago, ElDosEquis said:

t wouldn't be a problem with the Countess, she has a built in fire suppression system?

Yea, she's a squirter, right? Thanks, Ramona, for bringing that to light.  I will never be able to erase that from my mind......

[jaync]

Quote

I don't think any of them care who Luann sleeps with, or how often, except perhaps that prude Ramona. 

Ramona wasn't the one who had a popped-veined shamefest in regards to how frequently LuAnn gets laid. Beth may as well have worn a neon shirt emblazoned with "I Couldn't Care More!" on it.

Quote

It's because Bethenny doesn't want anyone's name dragged through the mud, so she's careful about what she says and does on camera. 

Others would likely disagree, such as her parents, her ex, John...

Quote

She couldn't handle it when Heather asked her how often she picks Brynn up from school.

[MaryTylerMoore]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, except for Jill married her money and Bethenny earned hers on her own.  I don't see much similarity in them at all frankly.

Bethenny inherited a lot of the "no fucks to give" level of wealth she enjoys today.  Jill and Bethenny screeching harpies that like to supervise everyone. It's as if she's casting the show in her head and has decided the role each of the women will play and if said HW doesn't play along she gets the screaming harridan we enjoyed on Wednesday.

[NewDigs]

36 minutes ago, MaryTylerMoore said:

Bethenny inherited a lot of the "no fucks to give" level of wealth she enjoys today.  Jill and Bethenny screeching harpies that like to supervise everyone. It's as if she's casting the show in her head and has decided the role each of the women will play and if said HW doesn't play along she gets the screaming harridan we enjoyed on Wednesday.

And who knows just how successful SkinnyGirl would have been w/o the Housewives attachment? Jill did her a favor getting her on a "Manhattan Moms" show that morphed into a "Housewives" show w/ Bethy being neither.

I think B would give Jill a run for her money in a meanest girl race. And win.

And, yeah, what was Carole's Asian/board-game/organized comment? Was it maybe a shot at Jules's constant referencing of her ancestry? Odd.

[Gaily]

Bravo is now running the very first season of RHNY from 2008 and I am struck by the following:

1.  How natural and organic the show used to be. Don't get me wrong. I still love it but there was far less staged drama, cat fights and slugfests and the families/spouses/kids were shown more often which I really liked.

2. I really like the old Jill Zarin, the one from seasons one and two -- the kind, down-to-earth mensch -- who was pretty great.  Too bad the show turned her into a competitive, bitter socialite because she's a great gal at her core.

3.  Ramona was still nuts but looked so young, pretty and in-shape, good her her.  She looks so much prettier with less makeup and a fresh natural look. Avery was always such a  lovely, poised  young lady.  That makes me like Ramona even more.

4.  Mario was always such a huge flirt.  Ramona, you are well rid of him and you can do better.

5.  Bethenny was always a really pretty, fresh-looking young lady. I always adored the old Bethenny who was so smart, funny and feisty -- the so-called underdog who was actually much better than any of the posers around her.  I loved her boyfriend Jason and was sad they did not end up together. I think he lost his job because of RHNY but found a better one eventually.

6.  Damn was LuAnn gorgeous and her Hamptons home with the Count was lovely. It must have been really hard for her when the Count fell in love with the Ethiopian princess and left her.  But give LuAnn credit --- she went through that trauma, didn't break a sweat or break down in front of others and carried on without skipping a beat. Talk about resilient.  She's a strong Taurus. (Sorry for the astrology -- I just love my fellow earth signs, Taurus and Capricorn.)

7. Alex and Simon are, at once, both adorable and insufferable.  They are so pretentious and obnoxious, plus they let their kids run wild and think that's endearing (NOT).  But they are intelligent, erudite,interesting and, at the end of the day, not mean or unkind. I miss them.

[zoeysmom]

40 minutes ago, NewDigs said:

And who knows just how successful SkinnyGirl would have been w/o the Housewives attachment? Jill did her a favor getting her on a "Manhattan Moms" show that morphed into a "Housewives" show w/ Bethy being neither.

I think B would give Jill a run for her money in a meanest girl race. And win.

And, yeah, what was Carole's Asian/board-game/organized comment? Was it maybe a shot at Jules's constant referencing of her ancestry? Odd.

To me it is an ensemble show and without the cast to showcase a person and essentially play off of there would have been no great branding opportunity.  When I watch I see Bethenny maybe being a little unappreciative to the reality and think the others may feel like they haven't been acknowledged for the roles in developing the platform for her.  Granted it was Bethenny's hard work but everyone once in awhile throw the others a bone and it can be said the others had an equal opportunity.  She keeps fighting the same battles (legally) so it is not as if others' input, assistance she has tried to minimize before.  I don't think Luann wants any $$$$ but maybe the acknowledgement that yeah, she was the one with Bethenny when Bethenny took the opportunity to brand on camera.  I guess nobody can take your Oscar away if you fail to thank those who helped along the way.     

[RedheadZombie]

For the record, Sonja has also called Luann LuMan.  Not this season, but last.  I think it was around the time Luann was harassing Sonja about her "businesses".  I don't like Luann, but I don't like any of these cruel nicknames - even when used by posters.  But that's just me.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, NewDigs said:

And, yeah, what was Carole's Asian/board-game/organized comment? Was it maybe a shot at Jules's constant referencing of her ancestry? Odd.

It could have been a cute little tease from Carole to Jules.  In the context of their interaction so far, the comment may have made sense and been something appropriate between two new friends getting to know each other.  But out of context, on a reality show, and from a woman who has otherwise tried to be PC about ethnicity, it was poor judgment.  Carole probably should have known better.

[ElDosEquis]

18 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

For many years and it is still something I instill in my son, it was considered bad manners to talk about who you had sex with or were having sex with.  Obviously when you reach adulthood and a couple travels together and spends the night in the same bed there is a pretty good inkling they are most likely being intimate.  I just don't understand why these women think they and the world are owed a description and admission?  Again why is  it any of their business who someone went home with and what they did?

Does it really matter if Luann apologies for the pedophile comment no matter what she says or does it will deemed, insincere, not sincere enough and too late.  So why go through the exercise if you don't want to move forward.  I am interested in what consequences Carole has in store for Luann?  Who does that in a friendship?  Very odd behavior. 

 

The reason that methenny doesn't want people to know who she is dating is the reaction - "HE'S DATING HER!?!?!?!"  Or is it the laughter from the peanut gallery and people betting on when she's going to blow up and send the guy packing?

It's one thing to be miserable and NOT knowing it - It's entirely something else to wear your misery on your sleeve and use that as a excuse for being a fucking asshole.

[ladle]

Never mind

Edited June 6, 2016 by ladle

[RedheadZombie]

5 hours ago, Higgins said:

Who considers Indian an offensive term?

http://www.nativetimes.com/index.php/life/commentary/11389-native-american-vs-american-indian-political-correctness-dishonors-traditional-chiefs-of-old

To be fair, many people consider Indian an offensive term.  In my experience, the people who still say Indian, also use Oriental, and call all Hispanics Mexican.  Of course each ethnic person has the right to call themselves whatever they want.  But I was always taught that the term "Indian" was a label placed by the imbelic Columbus who mistook where he "discovered" them .  Whereas Native American is a respectful name denoting the indigenous history.

Of course both terms have some controversy, and I could link several sites calling the word "Indian" offensive - unless you're from India.  But I'll stop here because I think this is more a support Luann point than an actual debate about the term.  I don't recall many defending Luann when the episode actually occurred.

[DelicateDee]

Woohoo!  Catching a RHNY Marathon from the 1st season right now!  Alex and Simon, Jill, all the kiddies.  Oh Memories!

[halkatla]

Luann is so gorgeous compared to most of the others. She stood her ground very well. If I was her I would have told Dorinda off, like she did, and then I´d have left. Dorinda was rude and crazy for attacking Luann, after all the craziness from Bethenny. She should have thrown B out and been proud of herself. And then Ramona should have been thrown out if she uttered a word about it.

When Dorinda was talking to Carole, Dorinda looked so much better, Carole looked at least 70. It was ugly. So typical that she said Luann was screaming at everyone... I lost respect for her, I´d never stand up like that for my friends, i.e I´d not lie about anyone for them.

I know why Ramona is so angry about Tom, she was so drunk that 1-2 dates seemed like 7-8, it´s a different version of seeing double.

Bethenny made the biggest fool out of herself, it was a disaster. The worst screaming match of all RH shows, ever. She´s got nothing left. She´s a crazy, nasty freak of a troll.

Jules is incredibly shallow and stupid.

Edited June 4, 2016 by halkatla

[motorcitymom65]

An opinion, just mine but I'm pretty fierce about it, is that once you have called someone a Pedophile you give up the right to ever be offended about anything you might be called with regard to your sexual behavior - ever. 

Don't  get me wrong, I think Beth came in hot and was wrong to start throwing around "whore" and "slut" like its her job. She is clearly mad at Lu about a whole list of things. The thing is, if Lu would have gotten all up in Beth's face and started throwing accusations of her own around most folks would have been cheering her on (me included). Because it looked kind of unprovoked. It looked kind of unhinged and over the top.  Lu would have every right to defend herself in any way she wanted to.

Well, this is exactly what Lu did to Carole last year. I am stunned when I read people talking about Carole being as culpable as Lu was in that whole deal.  Not from the beginning. Lu came out hot for Carole on social media. Calling her terrible names. Saying she was an old lady and looked ridiculous. That she must be sex starved to pick up young men in Lu's kitchen.  And yes she called her a pedophile. It took several days for Carole to hit back against a constant stream of nasty texts. Is isn't just my opinion - that Lu started it. There were several articles written at the time that discussed Lu's rage and nastiness towards Carole and wondered why the heck she was so angry. Then Carole had enough and she hit back hard. So hard that Lu stopped. 

So yea, Beth was wrong, but I am stunned that so many people seem to think it a more horrific crime to "slut shame" a person than it is to call someone a Pedophile.  Seriously? I don't even know how to process the fact that Lu's sex-life is so important to protect that it is discussed for 5 pages because shaming is wrong, but there is hardly a mention about her judging someone else's sex life to the point she calls her a Pedophile.   I would never ever forgive a person who said that about me, so IMO it's fine if Carole takes her time in forgiving Lu. 

[ElDosEquis]

8 hours ago, PickleDeeDee said:

I couldn't help but giggle thinking of Jules calling her interior decorator and saying 
"I need wealthy person closet wallpaper, STAT!"  

And make it that flocked stuff, too.

[njbchlover]

1 hour ago, DelicateDee said:

Woohoo!  Catching a RHNY Marathon from the 1st season right now!  Alex and Simon, Jill, all the kiddies.  Oh Memories!

Me, too....what a difference!  The show was so much better then!  

And, what a difference between Season 1 Bethenny and Season 8 Bethenny!!  She seemed more vulnerable and approachable then - now, not so much.  I guess money can't buy you class, but money can buy you sass....and snottiness!

Ramona seems to be pretty much the same, and I like Season 8 Luann much more than Season 1.  I'd forgotten how "Countess-y" she actually could be back then.

Also, I think Bethenny had her eyes tweaked.  Her eyes in Season 1 had a definite downward tilt on the outer eye - I don't think they do that now.  Or, it could just be more fillers in her cheeks now.  

Ramona looked much prettier back then and Luann is still stunning.

Edited June 4, 2016 by njbchlover

[Umbelina]

First seasons are always the best, once the wives learn the ropes and Bravo set ups, they learn how to avoid them.

[sasha206]

22 minutes ago, njbchlover said:

Me, too....what a difference!  The show was so much better then!  

And, what a difference between Season 1 Bethenny and Season 8 Bethenny!!  She seemed more vulnerable and approachable then - now, not so much.  I guess money can't buy you class, but money can buy you sass....and snottiness!

Ramona seems to be pretty much the same, and I like Season 8 Luann much more than Season 1.  I'd forgotten how "Countess-y" she actually could be back then.

Also, I think Bethenny had her eyes tweaked.  Her eyes in Season 1 had a definite downward tilt on the outer eye - I don't think they do that now.  Or, it could just be more fillers in her cheeks now.  

Ramona looked much prettier back then and Luann is still stunning.

I was thinking the same thing with Luann.  She's one of the rare Housewives who looks like she hasn't aged and she doesn't look like her face is full of fillers either.  Ramona actually looked better to me in seasons 4-7.  This season, the hair is so bad and her face is starting to really show the fillers.  Still she looks pretty damn good for her age.

Watching Season 3, I realize Bethenny's really becoming Jill Zarin.  All of the things she said to Jill during the tiffs she seems to be doing now.  

Edited June 4, 2016 by sasha206

[halkatla]

Quote

An opinion, just mine but I'm pretty fierce about it, is that once you have called someone a Pedophile you give up the right to ever be offended about anything you might be called with regard to your sexual behavior - ever. 

I agree up to a point, it´s got something to do with the situation and if the person apologizes. It´s a bit too late for Luann to apologize if it wasn´t an obvious joke or something... All of Carole´s grievances with her get lost though in the crazy bullshit from Bethenny and Ramona.

I would love it if they just got on for the most part and had civilized fights. And I wish they could apologize and forgive and forget, or just say they were wrong. At least once, it´s my dream that a RHw says she´s wrong or did something bad. I know now, after 7 years of watching, that it isn´t gonna happen.

I almost didn´t notice all the stuff Jules was saying about her dad. I was too busy feeling awful for Luann and being really embarrassed for B. And angry at Carole and Ramona etc. If I had been in Luann´s shoes I wouldn´t have been able to deal with someone talking about a sick parent at that moment, or showing sympathy. The other 4, not so much. But when it comes to Jules, she was difficult to watch this episode. I love women to look really, really thin, but she´s too much for me. Her thinness puts her in the same age-group as Carole.

[Higgins]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

To be fair, many people consider Indian an offensive term.  In my experience, the people who still say Indian, also use Oriental, and call all Hispanics Mexican.  Of course each ethnic person has the right to call themselves whatever they want.  But I was always taught that the term "Indian" was a label placed by the imbelic Columbus who mistook where he "discovered" them .  Whereas Native American is a respectful name denoting the indigenous history.

Of course both terms have some controversy, and I could link several sites calling the word "Indian" offensive - unless you're from India.  But I'll stop here because I think this is more a support Luann point than an actual debate about the term.  I don't recall many defending Luann when the episode actually occurred.

That is not my experience. The majority of the indigenous Americans prefer the term American Indian.

[zoeysmom]

53 minutes ago, halkatla said:

I agree up to a point, it´s got something to do with the situation and if the person apologizes. It´s a bit too late for Luann to apologize if it wasn´t an obvious joke or something... All of Carole´s grievances with her get lost though in the crazy bullshit from Bethenny and Ramona.

I would love it if they just got on for the most part and had civilized fights. And I wish they could apologize and forgive and forget, or just say they were wrong. At least once, it´s my dream that a RHw says she´s wrong or did something bad. I know now, after 7 years of watching, that it isn´t gonna happen.

I almost didn´t notice all the stuff Jules was saying about her dad. I was too busy feeling awful for Luann and being really embarrassed for B. And angry at Carole and Ramona etc. If I had been in Luann´s shoes I wouldn´t have been able to deal with someone talking about a sick parent at that moment, or showing sympathy. The other 4, not so much. But when it comes to Jules, she was difficult to watch this episode. I love women to look really, really thin, but she´s too much for me. Her thinness puts her in the same age-group as Carole.

 

My issue with Jules is she had ridden in a car for three hours with Luann, walked into Dorinda's announced her father was ill and then said she didn't want to talk about it.  Then when there was an argument going on she used the excuse she needed to call her father.  When Luann went outside, obviously distressed, Jules brings up dad again and said he will see the doctor in 7 minutes.  Jules used dad as a way of not engaging with Luann.  She also walked upstairs and brought up dad, no one responded and kind of abandoned Luann and gave her a bit of a slam.

[Higgins]

Moreover, a large number of Indians actually strongly object to the term Native American for political reasons. In his 1998 essay "I Am An American Indian, Not a Native American!", Russell Means, a Lakota activist and a founder of the American Indian Movement (AIM), stated unequivocally, "I abhor the term 'Native American.'" He continues:

It is a generic government term used to describe all the indigenous prisoners of the United States. These are the American Samoans, the Micronesians, the Aleuts, the original Hawaiians, and the erroneously termed Eskimos, who are actually Upiks and Inupiaqs. And, of course, the American Indian.

I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins. ... As an added distinction the American Indian is the only ethnic group in the United States with the American before our ethnicity.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/bismarck_200504A16.html

[DelicateDee]

On June 2, 2016 at 5:34 PM, QuinnM said:

The main point of interest to me is no one wanted anything to do with Luann.  Ramona was the only one coming within a 10 foot pole of her.  Everyone bailed on her.  Just interesting.  That wasn't because of Bethenny it was because no one wanted to be within 10 feet of her.  This was obviously something most of them had been hoping for for years.  Even poor Jules just kinda wandered away from Lu whenever she came around.  Very interesting.

I was trying to remember who it was that invited Kelly to that girls night.  (The famouse line 'What are you doing here without Dorinda?')  Was it Luann?  If it was then this crazy stuff has been brewing for a long time.  The other point is that everyone, including Ramona, ended up yelling at Lu.  She interrupts.  She lies in the face of all evidence to the contrary and people just finally lose it.  So Bethenny lost it with her.  Dorinda lost it with her.  Ramona barely kept it together and the only thing that stopped her was Luann finally kinda going ok maybe I did. (Referencing that she never said she came up with the SkinnyGirl name) 

So fascinating and the highest ratings of the season.  I'm thinking we see more of this.

Good points.  I forgot about that night out when Kelly hung out with them also.  And yes, it was Lu that invited her but didn't let Beth know.  It was not for nothing that Beth blew her top at LuAnn.

[straightshooter]

2 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

 

My issue with Jules is she had ridden in a car for three hours with Luann, walked into Dorinda's announced her father was ill and then said she didn't want to talk about it.  Then when there was an argument going on she used the excuse she needed to call her father.  When Luann went outside, obviously distressed, Jules brings up dad again and said he will see the doctor in 7 minutes.  Jules used dad as a way of not engaging with Luann.  She also walked upstairs and brought up dad, no one responded and kind of abandoned Luann and gave her a bit of a slam.

Perspective sure keeps life from being boring!  I saw this one as being the exact opposite of how you interpreted it!  I'm not a fan of either of them, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  

Wasn't Jules outside on the phone when LuAnn came out?  I might've misread, misheard, misunderstood, no tellin'. 

I wonder if it would be split down the middle if we had a poll.  :)

[zoeysmom]

23 minutes ago, straightshooter said:

Perspective sure keeps life from being boring!  I saw this one as being the exact opposite of how you interpreted it!  I'm not a fan of either of them, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  

Wasn't Jules outside on the phone when LuAnn came out?  I might've misread, misheard, misunderstood, no tellin'. 

I wonder if it would be split down the middle if we had a poll.  :)

I would think the poll would go in against Luann since has said she should have been more attentive.  So obviously she recognized she was being insensitive.  I have issues with people who drop a bombshell and then say they don't want to talk about it and then get upset that someone moves on to something else.  This all transpired in a relatively short amount of time, Jules had been in  a car with Luann for three hours and would presumably discussed her dad if it were bothering her.  I could not decide if it was editing or if Jules personality is such she likes attention for being a victim.  She also referenced her nanny quitting.  No one seemed to have any words for her.  I can't decide if she is terribly uninteresting to talk to or is just in her own little world and doesn't digest what is going on around her or perhaps a master of deflecting.

I am thinking at this point Jules has no use for either Sonja or Luann.  A much safer way to go.

[straightshooter]

2 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

I would think the poll would go in against Luann since has said she should have been more attentive.  So obviously she recognized she was being insensitive.  I have issues with people who drop a bombshell and then say they don't want to talk about it and then get upset that someone moves on to something else.  This all transpired in a relatively short amount of time, Jules had been in  a car with Luann for three hours and would presumably discussed her dad if it were bothering her.  I could not decide if it was editing or if Jules personality is such she likes attention for being a victim.  She also referenced her nanny quitting.  No one seemed to have any words for her.  I can't decide if she is terribly uninteresting to talk to or is just in her own little world and doesn't digest what is going on around her or perhaps a master of deflecting.

I am thinking at this point Jules has no use for either Sonja or Luann.  A much safer way to go.

Was Jules on the phone when LuAnn came out?  I want to watch it again but my DVR has other ideas.  

[lunastartron]

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

To be fair, many people consider Indian an offensive term.  In my experience, the people who still say Indian, also use Oriental, and call all Hispanics Mexican.  Of course each ethnic person has the right to call themselves whatever they want.  But I was always taught that the term "Indian" was a label placed by the imbelic Columbus who mistook where he "discovered" them .  Whereas Native American is a respectful name denoting the indigenous history.

Of course both terms have some controversy, and I could link several sites calling the word "Indian" offensive - unless you're from India.  But I'll stop here because I think this is more a support Luann point than an actual debate about the term.  I don't recall many defending Luann when the episode actually occurred.

 

3 hours ago, Higgins said:

Moreover, a large number of Indians actually strongly object to the term Native American for political reasons. In his 1998 essay "I Am An American Indian, Not a Native American!", Russell Means, a Lakota activist and a founder of the American Indian Movement (AIM), stated unequivocally, "I abhor the term 'Native American.'" He continues:

It is a generic government term used to describe all the indigenous prisoners of the United States. These are the American Samoans, the Micronesians, the Aleuts, the original Hawaiians, and the erroneously termed Eskimos, who are actually Upiks and Inupiaqs. And, of course, the American Indian.

I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins. ... As an added distinction the American Indian is the only ethnic group in the United States with the American before our ethnicity.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/bismarck_200504A16.html

Sigh. Forewarning: this is going to be a long post because the questions pertaining this recurring debate are, while not necessarily complex, often institutionally misunderstand and interlinked with little known history.

 

If it's difficult to recall many defending LuAnn when the episode aired back in 2012, that's a reflection of the extent to which the white perspective (even or especially the instructive benevolent liberal white savior perspective) almost inherently subsumes minority voices in general and those of the most systematically disenfranchised and marginalized minority population within the U.S. in particular.

The suggestion that "Indian" constitutes racist, offensive, and/or objectionable terminology is akin to the contention that no one should ever identify men and women of Afro and/or Caribbean heritage as "black." It is baldly incorrect; not only do many U.S. citizens self-identify as such, many as well prefer the designation to the more politically correct "African-American" because their lineage derives from island locales and cultures.

I have heretofore refrained from invoking my own racial identity in this particular discourse because a) demonstrable reality and contemporary references (like news organizations such as Indian Country Today; indigenous pride and activist movements like AIM; and any number of political bodies) illustrate the inaccuracy of the Indian = slur notion and b) I hesitate to do anything that suggests an issue like this is determined by racial yard-stick measuring.

But, since others have noted their blood quantum and other connections to indigenous identity, I'll add mine. I'm majority Indian. My family originates (or has, at least, for the last two centuries) from one of the few (maybe sole) municipalities in the country that is both not located on a reservation and yet majority-Indian. Family members have served in the National Congress of American Indians (oops, is that racist?); advised mainstream political figures on indigenous affairs; and lead tribal societies. I attended a college originally established for the explicit purpose of educating indigenous students that still makes a concerted effort to recruit pupils from such backgrounds. I attended classes and participated in the Native Americans student organization at that school with a multitude of young men and women who hailed from the proverbial rez.

Out of those hundreds upon hundreds of close and casual relationships, you know how many individuals of indigenous descent I've encountered who find the term "Indian" offensive? None. Zero. Nada. Umbrage at mascots and cultural appropriation? Sure. Disgust at Elizabeth Warren? You bet. Do most tribal members prefer the specificity of their particular tribal name? Yes. But, yeah, no blanching at "Indian" whatsoever.

You could write a book on why that is - and, apologies, I feel like this post is already rivaling a book in length - but as Higgins quotes Russell Means, "Native American" is an all-inclusive (and thus less specific) phrase popularized by the white United States government.

As for the particular imbroglio involving our favorite New York cast, Carole a) was ignorant and flat-out wrong in her assertion that "anyone" over the age of a third grader "knows" "Indian" is "racist" b) doesn't give a shit about Indians; she just wanted to exploit the opportunity they presented her to take a dig at LuAnn.

LuAnn, however, as shoegal mentioned, is white herself in function, privilege, experience, and culture. That she references her Algonquin ancestry doesn't really strike me as problematic since she lays no claim to any knowledge of customs, traditions, etc. The war-whooping; promotion of the cartoonish "wild Indian" archetype; talk about "scalping" is, however, indeed racist.

If LuAnn actually had a more substantive relationship with and groundedness in indigenous roots than using them as a cocktail convo curio, I would personally understand leveraging caricature to say "fuck you" to Carole's mighty whiteness. But, again, Lu is white herself.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/08/07/other-things-said-about-american-indians-real-housewives-new-york-city-127963

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/08/06/tonights-real-housewives-features-misinformed-debate-over-un-racist-remark-127742

 

And, thanks, Higgins, for your salient points.

Edited June 5, 2016 by lunastartron

[ChattyCathyLA]

As someone upthread mentioned, this show was so much more interesting when it was about the women's' charity work, Bethanny trying to find a husband and start a business, Luann was a snob married to a Count, Jill was redecorating, fashion shows, Ramona was more sedate, etc.. It seems like, now,  they are all competing for airtime and story lines and making their particular craziness important to the show!  UGH!  This show jumped the shark for me after the Bethanny/Jill Zarin fighting and I only came back because Bethanny returned and she was my fav!  She used to be sharp and witty (remember "dis-countess"?) and now she is just nasty, stressed-out and ill-tempered.  She seemed so much happier when she was single and struggling.  I knew she would end up divorced.  If she hadn't gotten preggo, she would have moved on from that loser in a few months.  He was never in her league!

In this episode, she kept sticking Luann with little knives over nothing!  So, Luann sleeps around?  So does Sonia!  So what?  Luann admitted it and Bethanny wouldn't stop nailing her over and over again!  Methinks this is really about something else and Bethanny is being passive-aggressive.  I wonder if they'll ever show what the REAL issue is?

Alas, this show is about to jump the shark again for me ... just like all of the other ones ...

Edited June 5, 2016 by ChattyCathyLA

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, straightshooter said:

Was Jules on the phone when LuAnn came out?  I want to watch it again but my DVR has other ideas.  

I just remember her saying the doctor will see her dad in seven minutes and her dad was hard to understand.  As in she had gleaned all the information she could from the conversation.  because of the editing and things being chopped up didn't know if she was truly on the phone.

I guess another way to look at is, perhaps Jules was trying to defuse the situation and put the argument into perspective by bringing up life and death.

[seasick]

On 6/3/2016 at 5:16 PM, ryebread said:

 

In addition to her not being able to speak up in real time and rarely having anything clever to say unless it's muuuuch later in a TH or her blog, for me this is further evidence that Carole is a bit of a dolt.

Yeah....she is,  now that you mention it!    And her regression to age 15 fits perfectly.  She's pretty empty-headed.

The 'too cool for this'  bit  is a just a cover for being stupid.

[ivygirl]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

First seasons are always the best, once the wives learn the ropes and Bravo set ups, they learn how to avoid them.

Except in the case of Dallas. ;)

Anyhoo... I know I'm a little late to the party. After you all decorated, cooked, and MADE IT NICE. I'm ashamed.

But regarding Luann's lame text. "Dear Carole. I'm sorry I called you a pedafile. I meant to call you a pedi-file. As in, you're looking rough. I mean, your heels have been looking rough. Now I am the bigger person. And as I once sang, 'Chic c'est la vie. C'est bon,' which means, 'it's always appropriate to apologize via text.' That's also in page 485 of my etiquette book. In closing, please come to my holiday party."

Speaking of La Luann, she looked so pretty in that last scene, and then they cut to that talking head where she looks like Mrs 1988, crinkly perm and all.

Edited June 5, 2016 by ivygirl

[sasha206]

8 hours ago, ChattyCathyLA said:

As someone upthread mentioned, this show was so much more interesting when it was about the women's' charity work, Bethanny trying to find a husband and start a business, Luann was a snob married to a Count, Jill was redecorating, fashion shows, Ramona was more sedate, etc.. It seems like, now,  they are all competing for airtime and story lines and making their particular craziness important to the show!  UGH!  This show jumped the shark for me after the Bethanny/Jill Zarin fighting and I only came back because Bethanny returned and she was my fav!  She used to be sharp and witty (remember "dis-countess"?) and now she is just nasty, stressed-out and ill-tempered.  She seemed so much happier when she was single and struggling.  I knew she would end up divorced.  If she hadn't gotten preggo, she would have moved on from that loser in a few months.  He was never in her league!

In this episode, she kept sticking Luann with little knives over nothing!  So, Luann sleeps around?  So does Sonia!  So what?  Luann admitted it and Bethanny wouldn't stop nailing her over and over again!  Methinks this is really about something else and Bethanny is being passive-aggressive.  I wonder if they'll ever show what the REAL issue is?

Alas, this show is about to jump the shark again for me ... just like all of the other ones ...

The show felt more organic.  Plus, for a few of the women, the friendship actually felt real.  Now it seems like whenever a RH on any of the franchises is brought in, they try to make it sound like the women have been friends for years.  And it does't feel like it at all.  

And now the storylines are so formulaic:

- Someone doesn't get invited.  There's hurt and the lone RH that defends the uninvited.

- Pychics! I see dead people.

- Therapists.

- Fertility speciliasts.

- On camera engagements, weddings.

- Vow renewal.

- Waxing coochies.

It seems like every franchise has  90% of these elements, every season. 

[jaync]

Quote

So yea, Beth was wrong, but I am stunned that so many people seem to think it a more horrific crime to "slut shame" a person than it is to call someone a Pedophile.

I don't recall anyone saying they think that. LuAnn's insult towards Carole took place off-camera, and like the other storylines and happenings in this episode, Beth's need to hijack and overshadow has just simply caused the discussion to be heavily focused on her actions. Hardly shocking, imo, and certainly not an indicator that the general mindset is that being called a pedophile isn't as horrible as slut-shaming.

[WireWrap]

13 hours ago, straightshooter said:

Perspective sure keeps life from being boring!  I saw this one as being the exact opposite of how you interpreted it!  I'm not a fan of either of them, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  

Wasn't Jules outside on the phone when LuAnn came out?  I might've misread, misheard, misunderstood, no tellin'. 

I wonder if it would be split down the middle if we had a poll.  :)

I am not sure she was on the phone when Luann went outside but she was smoking a cigarette and had her phone in her hand.

[ElDosEquis]

3 hours ago, sasha206 said:

The show felt more organic.  Plus, for a few of the women, the friendship actually felt real.  Now it seems like whenever a RH on any of the franchises is brought in, they try to make it sound like the women have been friends for years.  And it does't feel like it at all.  

And now the storylines are so formulaic:

- Someone doesn't get invited.  There's hurt and the lone RH that defends the uninvited.

- Pychics! I see dead people.

- Therapists.

- Fertility speciliasts.

- On camera engagements, weddings.

- Vow renewal.

- Waxing coochies.

It seems like every franchise has  90% of these elements, every season. 

you forgot to mention "kooky diseases/funny diagnoses"

[thefog]

BRAVO ran a marathon of Season 1.  And lo and behold, there's Tom - Luann's finance - at a bar, hitting on Ramona on a girls night out.  Fast forward 8 yrs later and Luann is engaged to this guy.  I can see this being so juicy at the Reunion.

ETA:  The big difference between the show Then and Now.  Then it was really more about the women's everyday lives with their families, work, NY society.  It help that they had known each other prior to the show.  Now it has basically turned into a cage match of who can create the most drama, catfights, friction.

Edited June 5, 2016 by escape

[Neurochick]

18 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

 

An opinion, just mine but I'm pretty fierce about it, is that once you have called someone a Pedophile you give up the right to ever be offended about anything you might be called with regard to your sexual behavior - ever. 

 

 

I don't get this.  Maybe it would make sense if Bethenny went to Luann and said, "how can you act like such a prude, you called Carole a pedophile!"

This show makes me laugh because these "women" act like seventh graders.  When I was in the seventh grade, someone would say something to someone and then that person would want to fight the other person.  Nothing was ever about an action, but about words.  Remember that saying, "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me?"  

I think what's changed today is social media.  If Luann called Carole a pedophile to her face, they'd probably scream at each other; but it would be just between the two of them.  Luann put it on social media, and when you put things there, they stay there forever, they are no longer between just the two of you and are more hurtful that just two girls screaming at each other in the playground.  

[straightshooter]

21 minutes ago, escape said:

BRAVO ran a marathon of Season 1.  And lo and behold, there's Tom - Luann's finance - at a bar, hitting on Ramona on a girls night out.  Fast forward 8 yrs later and Luann is engaged to this guy.  I can see this being so juicy at the Reunion.

I KNEW that was him!! I asked on two threads if anyone knew - thank you for making me feel less crazy!  So funny that his friend actually voiced his dislike for Ramona and then Tom ends up dating her later...

[motorcitymom65]

1 hour ago, jaync said:

I don't recall anyone saying they think that. LuAnn's insult towards Carole took place off-camera, and like the other storylines and happenings in this episode, Beth's need to hijack and overshadow has just simply caused the discussion to be heavily focused on her actions. Hardly shocking, imo, and certainly not an indicator that the general mindset is that being called a pedophile isn't as horrible as slut-shaming.

Tons and tons of comments have said that Carole was just as wrong as Lu because eventually she started fighting back against the huge flood of nasty stuff that Lu was throwing at her. Tons of comments on this thread alone have said this very thing in the last week. And while I don't think it's true that the vast majority of people think calling someone a slut is anywhere near as horrendous as calling someone a Pedophile, my point is that on a forum where behavior and comments among the ladies are discussed and analyzed, it is surprising that someone being called a slut is more outrageous than someone being called a Pedophile. If we are concerned with protecting a woman's sexual decisions and not wanting her to be judged because of the decisions she makes, why aren't folks furious that a grown adult woman making her own sexual decisions is being called a Pedophile? Are women's sexual lives only to be protected if we are talking about the amount of sex they are having? And who cares if it happened off camera? It was a major point of this episode, and the discussion on this forum is about what happened on this episode. I am surprised that a person who called someone a Pedophile would ever get one ounce of sympathy. Again, Beth was wrong and that is on her, but certainly after what Lu said she deserves to have every single minute of her private life thrown around for people to mock and judge as they so desire. 

[straightshooter]

3 hours ago, sasha206 said:

The show felt more organic.  Plus, for a few of the women, the friendship actually felt real.  Now it seems like whenever a RH on any of the franchises is brought in, they try to make it sound like the women have been friends for years.  And it does't feel like it at all.  

And now the storylines are so formulaic:

 

This!  All of this!  It applies to all of the HWs shows now, sadly.  The ol' power struggle has been pounding nails into the coffins of all of them.

[Christi]

This episode was EPIC! LOL Im watching it again right now...yes...Jules was on the phone with her ailing father when LuAnn plopped down to talk about how upset she was.  Jules even mentioned jow sick her dather is, and Luann didnt skip a beat...classic lol

[Christi]

I also watched the marayhon yesterday, yes Ramona looked young but this was 8 years ago! I think they all have aged really well.  Bethanny has had a lot of cosemetic work done since then.  The first season really showed her sunken, downturned, deep set eyes.  They still look weird, but much better than the first seasons.

[ScoobieDoobs]

20 hours ago, DelicateDee said:

Woohoo!  Catching a RHNY Marathon from the 1st season right now!  Alex and Simon, Jill, all the kiddies.  Oh Memories!

I have a theory why they're showing the first season.  To contrast the once funny, likeable & immensely watchable Bethenny to this non-stop screaming hate-spewing mostly humorless shrew we're stuck with now.  Ugh, she's just so relentlessly awful this season.  And her sense of humor has pretty much vanished.  

I give Lu credit that she is the only one who stands up to her.  But she (like everyone else on this now terrible show) still kisses up to her. We saw Lu give her that hella pricey bag -- which Betheny just rolled her eyes at.  

Look, maybe Bethenny doesn't have the direct power to hire or fire anyone, but everyone sure is terrified of her.  Who can blame 'em?  She is terrifying now.  She's Freddie Krueger.  Her reign of terror & wrath never ends.   Ugh, I can't stand this show now (cuz of Bethenny's non-stop hate fest) & took a break from it.

I watched the first season & remembered why I enjoyed this show.  It ain't the same now.  Watching Bethenny makes me anxious & tense.  No likey -- ar all!  Carole is a waste of cam time.  Have to admit, Moaner, Lu & Sonja do sometimes still give me a giggle.  But Bethenny's hate shtick is killing it for me.

Edited June 5, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs

[ghoulina]

On Friday, June 03, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Umbelina said:

I don't think any of them care who Luann sleeps with, or how often, except perhaps that prude Ramona.  I think they are fed up with the hypocrisy of the two Luann's

This. And I also think when you're in a fight with someone, you throw out shit that you know is going to sting. It's ugly, but I know I've intentionally pushed buttons in an argument, even if I didn't really mean what I said. I think Beth knew she took it too far, and appeared quite frustrated with herself after.