S05.E08: Episode 8

[doodlebug]

21 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I didn't say she hadn't thanked them.  I was responding ( sarcastically) to the post just above mine that seemed to be saying the midwives didn't charge very much so she didn't need to be grateful to them.   

Mine was the post just above yours, but I wasn't addressing the level of gratitude the bride was demonstrating.  I posted in response to a poster who said that she'd received thousands and thousands of dollars worth of care.  Not in 1961, she didn't.  Maternity care was relatively inexpensive in those days.  Personally, I don't think the amount of gratitude owed is in any way related to the cost of the services in the first place.  Of course, the fact that I've practiced obstetrics for over 30years myself might be part of the reason.  It's always gratifying to be thanked for one's services in ways other than money.  I've got several scrapbooks full of notes and cards I've gotten from patients over the years to prove it.

[7-Zark-7]

I didn't get at least one of the Christmas episodes on my PBS station. I found it later on Netflix.

[elle]

Having withdrawals from a lack of CtM to beginning my week, I rewatched this episode.  I do not think this has been mentioned yet.  In the scene with Sister E and the newborn baby, which is so wonderful to see her regain her confidence with babies, she is saying about the baby that "this little lady had been here before, maybe not on this continent, but she has been here".  I thought it was an interesting comment coming from a nun.  I did wonder if it was supposed tie forward to Sister E's death and the birth of the baby at the wedding.

[Driad]

Article on thalidomide and why it was not approved in the US:  

http://www.upworthy.com/the-very-real-story-of-how-one-woman-prevented-a-national-tragedy-by-doing-her-job?c=upw1

[Kohola3]

Whether this is true or not, I have read that the German's actually knew about the issues but hid that information to avoid  besmirching their national pride and reputation.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Whether this is true or not, I have read that the German's actually knew about the issues but hid that information to avoid  besmirching their national pride and reputation.

Part of the problem was that, after WWII, the German government was very careful in collecting statistics on children with birth defects, due to Hitler's history of killing those children.  The government wanted to stay as far away from anything that might be misconstrued as eugenics and therefore, wasn't as vigilant as other countries in collecting data. 

And, of course, the German manufacturer of the drug didn't disclose their data until it became clear that something terrible was happening and they couldn't avoid scrutiny.

[MissLucas]

History did play a part but quite the opposite way. The increase in deformed infants was noticed and discussed for the first time in 1958 in the German Parliament but then nuclear tests were suspected (same happened in other countries). Due to the Nazi regime's ruthless handling of disabled people  there was a lot of concern about any attempts to scan and register disabilities in post-war Germany so it was difficult to get the necessary data. Still one of the leading scientist who managed together with the Australian William McBride to provide definite proof that Thalidomide was responsible for the deformities was the German Widukind Lenz.

 

ETA: Or what doodlebug said.

[clarkbar]

As sad as I was about Sister Evangeline, I only cried when Trixie was upset about not feeling a part of something.  Been there.

[proserpina65]

On ‎05‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 2:53 AM, txhorns79 said:

She was?   I thought her mother in law was very kind to her. 

She did end up being much nicer to Noelle than I'd expected.  My first impression, based on what she was saying before she met her soon-to-be daughter-in-law, was that she'd be harder on the girl, but I'm glad that wasn't how it worked out.

[limecoke]

It's funny.  I had just watched the episode of "Where The Heart Is" where the Pam Ferris character dies so it was a double dose of sadness when Sister E dies on CTM.  I never cry over TV or movies but both of these got to me.

I'm old so remember well when the whole Thalidomide thing hit the news.  It was awful.  The show did a good job of unfolding this story and it broke my heart all over again.

 

Question.   Are the DVD's the only source of uncut episodes of CTM??  Are they uncut in iTunes or Amazon Instant?   I'm perpetually annoyed that PBS does this.

Edited August 13, 2016 by deaja
Hid spoiler for another show

[Beldasnoop]

13 hours ago, limecoke said:

Question.   Are the DVD's the only source of uncut episodes of CTM??  Are they uncut in iTunes or Amazon Instant?   I'm perpetually annoyed that PBS does this.

The DVDs are the only uncut version sold in the US. The Netflix, iTunes, and Amazon streaming versions are all edited, and bizarrely, they are shorter than the PBS edited version. The DVDs are great, though. Great quality, unedited episodes, and most seasons (all but season 4) have "behind the scenes" bonus features. 

[PRgal]

Re: Thalidomide - I haven't seen it yet, but there is a documentary on Netflix (at least Netflix Canada) on the drug.

[kassa]

Thalidomide has made a bit of a comeback in some cancer and leprosy therapy. With really intense birth control requirements, of course.

I didn't take Aussie Bride's wedding dress comments as a complaint at all, just a wistful musing to a sympathetic ear. She's making conversation with a nun about both prenatal care and the wedding she hasn't had yet, expressing regret that things are not as they should be. I thought it was a nice, gentle scene showing two very different women connecting.

[Thumper82003]

On June 12, 2016 at 10:34 AM, kassa said:

Thalidomide has made a bit of a comeback in some cancer and leprosy therapy. With really intense birth control requirements, of course.

I didn't take Aussie Bride's wedding dress comments as a complaint at all, just a wistful musing to a sympathetic ear. She's making conversation with a nun about both prenatal care and the wedding she hasn't had yet, expressing regret that things are not as they should be. I thought it was a nice, gentle scene showing two very different women connecting.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I took Thalidomide for 1 year. Each month I had to swear I was post menopausal or used 2 forms of birth control, any unused pills would be returned to the company etc. It cost $15000/month for my dose. (TG my insurance covered it!) The doctor and pharmacy had to be certified. There was monthly blood work. In the end, it did not make enough of an improvement to justify continuing.

It has become one of those "orphan" drugs that should be inexpensive since it is so old, but since it has new uses they can justify such a huge price, keeping out of reach for those without insurance or finances.

[atticdrama]

On 5/24/2016 at 5:43 PM, wonderwoman said:

I loved the idea of Sister Evangelina's dress being put to such good use. And re "But, will I feel like a bride," I didn't take that as complaining or whining, just a expression of what she grew up expecting: to be married in a white gown. Yet here she was: pregnant, thousands of miles from home, no family except of the mother-in-law she only just met. I found it wistful, and, yes, a  bit touching

 

I just took the whole situation as a plot point to use Sister Evangelina's gown (and reinforce her practicality and generosity) and tie her death to one of the episode's weekly births. Especially as wedding gowns were certainly not the big thing in the mid 20th century they are now. But be that as it may, the young woman did not strike me as selfish at all, but quite vulnerable and human. That's kind of the beauty of this show, everyone gets their full measure of humanity, no one is 100% villain or saint, they get to have flaws and virtues. The mother-in-law of the episode is first presented as pretty horrible, but eventually, we see that she's really OK and making the best of things and welcoming her son's new wife. 

[LeGrandElephant]

I just finished this. Am I terrible because I didn't care at all about any of the plots other than the thalidomide? I expected to see more about that, since it was such a big historical event (and I've been reading up on it). Maybe more next season? If they're just figuring it out, there could still be more affected babies that haven't been born yet. Ok, now to read the thread... 

On May 23, 2016 at 8:08 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Yes, it was absolutely necessary that Dr. Turner not have personally prescribed the pills for Rhoda Mullucks (Susans' mom), Mrs. Cottingham (mother of the baby who died in the hospital), or the mother of the little boy born without thumbs whose family moved to another district.  Otherwise, given what we've seen of him, his guilt would have been so great that I doubt he could have come back from the breakdown he almost certainly would have suffered.  (He was already on the verge of one, and seemed to have resumed smoking.)  In reality, with all the women he had prescribed thalidomide too, it was very convenient that none of them seem to have had affected children.

I agree it is suspiciously convenient that Dr. Turner doesn't seem to have directly prescribed thalidomide to any of the mothers with the deformed babies during their pregnancies (though they said he did prescribe it before their pregnancies and they kept taking them). I guess they didn't want to deal with him breaking down, but I would have preferred to have more time devoted to that and get rid of some of the filler plots. It seems unrealistic that he got away without that direct feeling of guilt, but there's technically still time for more deformed babies to be born next season I guess. I don't see it working dramatically though, I think they'll move on to other plots. On the other hand, maybe he could feel ok because there's really no way he could have possibly known and thousands of other doctors did the same thing, as opposed to the time he freaked out because he didn't catch something that he potentially could have thought of. But overall, I expected more on the subject from this episode, and was surprised how much time was devoted to other plots instead. 

Regarding smoking, I remember reading (I think in The Emperor of All Maladies) about someone in the US compiling statistics to check for causes of lung cancer. He was a smoker, and his money was on pollution from something else. If I'm remembering what I read correctly, as he started running the numbers, the link became so obvious that he immediately quit smoking in a panic. I don't know what was known in Britain at the time but it looks like the famous US surgeon general's warning on cigarettes didn't come out until a few years after this season. 

Regarding the babies they film, does anyone know how old the babies that play newborns usually are? They can't be filming actual newborns, can they?

On May 30, 2016 at 1:09 PM, elle said:

Having withdrawals from a lack of CtM to beginning my week, I rewatched this episode.  I do not think this has been mentioned yet.  In the scene with Sister E and the newborn baby, which is so wonderful to see her regain her confidence with babies, she is saying about the baby that "this little lady had been here before, maybe not on this continent, but she has been here".  I thought it was an interesting comment coming from a nun.  I did wonder if it was supposed tie forward to Sister E's death and the birth of the baby at the wedding.

I noticed that too, presumably a reference to reincarnation, and odd coming from a nun. They are very respectful of other people's beliefs, but she brought that up herself as if she believed it, not just as if she was being polite about something the mom said. 

[purist]

16 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Regarding the babies they film, does anyone know how old the babies that play newborns usually are? They can't be filming actual newborns, can they?

Here is a good article about the babies - yes, they are real. Excerpt:

Quote

Screenwriter Heidi Thomas said the babies used on screen must be younger than ten days old, in order to get that realistic “scrunched up” look. But despite the fact they “book” in their starring newborns before they are even born, the necessary paperwork can take up to a week to complete to BBC standards. By that time, the show’s creators are left with a narrow precious window to film the infants before they look too old.

Here is an article about filming the thalidomide babies, which are prosthetics. It also mentions the standard new-borns:

Quote

Call the Midwife normally uses real newborn babies under 10-days-old (with pregnant mums being booked before they even go into labour) to film their birth scenes – lesions or wounds are added using the magic of CGI

[LeGrandElephant]

54 minutes ago, purist said:

Here is a good article about the babies - yes, they are real. Excerpt:

Thanks! I didn't mean I thought they weren't real babies, just that I thought they might be noticeably older than newborns (I don't spend any time around newborns to know how big they should be). 7-10 days old seems pretty reasonable as far as accuracy of their size etc. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by LeGrandElephant

[Kohola3]

Quote

 7-10 days old seems pretty reasonable as far as accuracy of their size etc.

Especially since most fake births end up showing a  12-15 pound kid that's clearly NOT a newborn.

[doodlebug]

As an OB whose delivered thousands, this show's babies are far more realistic than most movies and TV shows. The kids all have that newborn look and most are just about the right size, too.

[Thumper82003]

I don't know if CTM uses them, but there is a doll maker who makes very realistic dolls for tv shows like soap operas. They are very expensive, but the ones I saw are realistic. However, on CTM, they seem to have real babies more than other shows.

[Willowsmom]

According to the interviews, the babies are real and must be younger than 10 days. They did use a doll for the thalidomide babies.

[craziness]

Just rewatching this episode and I'm wondering why the nuns didn't go looking for Sr. Evangeline when she missed compline or whatever the name of the prayer in the early morning is called. 

Also,  they should have put her sneakers on the coffin,  not those fancy shoes. 

[staveDarsky]

On 2016-07-22 at 8:30 PM, craziness said:

Also,  they should have put her sneakers on the coffin,  not those fancy shoes. 

The sneakers were a one-time replacement while her shoes (the ones she was buried with) were being resoled and repaired.  She was so devout she was walking around in worn-out, holes through the soles, shoes until one of the other sisters caught her and made her get the shoes fixed. So she was buried with the right shoes.

[Badger]

From what I understand, they use real babies for the close-up scenes.  However, when you see a baby in the background, that's usually an animatronic doll.  

[doodlebug]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 8:30 PM, craziness said:

Just rewatching this episode and I'm wondering why the nuns didn't go looking for Sr. Evangeline when she missed compline or whatever the name of the prayer in the early morning is called. 

Also,  they should have put her sneakers on the coffin,  not those fancy shoes. 

Well. she'd been out late on a call, maybe she wasn't expected to make early morning prayers in that circumstance.

[katisha]

Just caught up with a binge-watch of Season 5 in the last few days and oh, Lordy, I usually rely on CTM to cheer me up and warm my heart, and instead they go and kill off a character I really like and put my tear ducts in danger of overload.  Poor Sr Evangeline :(  I did not spoil myself re this season so I didn't know it was coming - just had a suspicion when she started napping in the chair - so it was quite a shock.  In fact, the whole season was rather downbeat and sorely missing some input from Chummy, who I really wish had made some kind of appearance in the season finale because unless she's just not coming back to the show ever, there is no way the character (as many have said) would have missed Sr Evangeline's funeral.  

I loved the character of Sr Evangeline because as someone educated by a lot of different nuns, especially in my early school days, I knew a couple a lot like her - outwardly brusque and impatient and no-nonsense, but with an absolute heart of gold.  She will be a hard act to follow.  If Sr Monica Jean goes any time soon, I don't think I can take it! Oh, and please give Trixie something or someone to cheer her up.  I've felt I wanted to give her a big hug all season because she's been so brave and fighting so hard to conquer her alcohol demons.  

It never ceases to amaze me how this show draws me in even though I'm not a mum, I'm not especially into babies and usually shows like this would make me change the channel, but I just can't get enough of CTM.  Can't wait for next season.

Edited November 5, 2016 by katisha

[jschoolgirl]

On 6/17/2016 at 11:40 AM, Kohola3 said:

Especially since most fake births end up showing a  12-15 pound kid that's clearly NOT a newborn.

Yes, Meredith Grey's baby Ellis was BIG!

[RedbirdNelly]

I don't cry at every episode but certainly did this time. I thought Sr. E sleeping on the chair was going to lead to health issues and a death in future episodes but not this one. I gasped an out loud "oh no!" when Fred came in. 

I was moved by the Fred scene with the bicycle. This show is so good top to bottom. I will really miss Sr. E. 

I agree that the birth at the reception was a bit contrived but it was nice to have a happy moments and some first births come fast. Mine was a 4 hour labor start to finish. If we'd waited much longer, we would not have gotten to the hospital in time (it was 2 weeks early and we kept thinking this can't be real since they kept saying "wait until your contractions are 10 minutes apart before coming in" and mine started at 2 minutes apart. Kept thinking surely this will stop. Finally decided to drive in after telling my husband "we might as well go; I can't get any sleep like this.")