S02.E07: Faith

[Athena]

Quote

Doctors at L'Hopital des Anges attempt to save the lives of Claire and her unborn baby; King Louis asks Claire to judge two men accused of engaging in the dark arts.

Note: Book Talk discussion includes spoilers from all the books. Avoid if you are unspoiled.

[toolazy]

Jesus Christ on a breadstick.  I don't think any episode of television ever has kicked my ass quite that badly. 

[night owl rocks]

Agreed!  Cait was amazing!

[metaphor]

Caitriona was simply fantastic. Claire's despair, anger, and anxiety were all very palpable. And amidst all that, that "Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ" moment made me smile. I think the most powerful moment for me was the scene in which Claire was holding Faith, singing to her and unable to let go. Heartbreaking.

Mother Hildegarde, Master Raymond and Louise will be greatly missed. 

Those last two scenes, of Jamie and Claire speaking honestly and reaffirming their commitment to one another, then saying goodbye to Faith, were wonderfully on point. Just gorgeously done, set to a beautiful score. 

And now, I'm very eager to see them back in Scotland. 

[Glaze Crazy]

This episode did a good job balancing the heart-wrenching and tense parts with a little humor. "I closed my eyes...and thought of England."  I burst out laughing.

I continue to like how well they have condensed and realigned the huge mass of "stuff" while still getting the overall story across with primary plot points intact.

Caitriona was excellent and so heart breaking in the hospital scenes. I'm a long time book reader but seeing her holding Faith and singing to her about did me in. Her return home, the slow walk into the townhouse and interacting with both Magnus and her maid was also well done.

The way Fergus' attack from BJR was shown was very good.  So glad they skipped making that too graphic.  The young actor did an excellent job telling the story to Claire. I was so sad after that scene in the attic with Fergus and Claire I had to pause it there for a minute and take a breath.

The confrontation in the star chamber was well done.  What a perfect set for that scene. It was so well shot, with the different camera angles looking down at the floor and up at the ceiling.  Stanley Weber sure hit all his emotions, from trying to discredit Claire by calling her a witch to how he conveyed his terror in seeing her amulet change color when she handed the cup of bitter cascara, now poisoned, to him.  That shot from the ceiling at the Comte lying on the patterned floor, his fine clothes almost blending into it, was excellent. Loved Claire's teal green dress!

Jamie, home at last after weeks in the Bastille, complete with lumberjack beard! This episode was so good I hadn't thought about how he was MIA for most of it. Again, glad they were able to condense the whole coming to grips with the baby's death, Claire with the King, putting stuff in perspective, forgiving each other almost right away and going forward together, instead of the chase through the garden/nettles/draaaammmaaa from the book.  This scene was very well played between Sam and Caitriona. Loved that Claire made sure to mention that Faith had copper colored hair. Not in book IIRC, but sweet bit of information.

I've been up and down on how much I've liked each of the episodes in Paris as they've been shown, but a couple of weeks ago I had a thought that once they were all aired and could be rewatched together in a binge style they might seem better overall, to me.  This section of the books is the one I mostly skip over on a re-read and I think seeing it realigned and tightened up by the show runners has helped a lot in getting a lot of information and plot set up for the remainder of the season without being overly long in the court machinations and unnecessary crap that doesn't go anywhere or inform future events.

Little Brianna was extremely cute but for some reason I would think a 6 year old child in 1954 wouldn't have long flowing hair but something in a shoulder length style, if only for her mother's convenience.  I liked that additional scene. Clearly Jamie and Claire eventually have a (very red haired) child that lives, in case any non readers were wondering...

[Petunia846]

Okay, they made me cry, which is quite a feat. I held out most of the episode, but I was done in by Louise coming to take the baby away.

I don't actually understand the reason for the flashforward to Boston. Narrative-wise I don't get it. It was lovely, but I don't understand how it fits with the rest of the story. Was it meant to appease non-book readers who would be sad that they lost the baby? Was it meant to confuse them? Throw them off for a minute and think that maybe they wouldn't lose the baby? I can't figure out how it enhances the story that the rest of the episode was telling.

As sad and serious as everything was, I had to laugh out loud the first time we focused on Sam with that crazy beard. Heh.

In closing...Scotland!

[morgan]

I almost made it to the midnight show but couldn't quite make it.  Glad I waited for this morning.  That episode kicked my ass.  I cannot wait to watch again later with mr. morgan.  This might rank as my favorite Outlander episode ever and I'm shocking myself by writing that.  It's definitely in the top few that's for sure.  

Cait is amazing.  She plays despair like nothing I have seen.  Well done to her and if she is overlooked by the various awards, I hope she knows in spite of it just how good she is.  Every scene was better than the next, and that one where she cradled Faith until Louise (yay, final Louise scene!) killed me.  Sam in the coming home scene killed me as well.  He is changed.  So changed.  By everything.  Dear god.

a few more quick notes before I have to run and start my day.  Am sure I will be back with more thoughts.

I wish they hadn't quite gone there with Fergus. I'm glad it was relatively quick though.  And actually they moved everything at a good clip without it feeling rushed  I really didn't see how they were going to pull all that was left with France off in one episode but the did it amazingly well. Condensing where they could really tightened it up.

the starlight room was incredible! That whole part was stunning and well done.

awkward sex with Louis was exactly as I pictured it.  "I closed my eyes and thought of England" made me laugh out loud, literally, too.  Glad she told Jamie right off.

Wee Bree!!!!

i have to run but quickly need to add, any other old Lost watchers expect heroin to fall out when the Madonna statue broke?  Lol

Gotta run.  Hope everyone enjoyed as much as I did.  Can't wait till I can watch again!!!!

Edited May 21, 2016 by morgan

[Clawdette]

I've waited a few hours after watching both to nap and to reflect.  It was truly an emotional episode and hit most of the high notes.  I didn't mind that the show skipped Claire recuperating at home rather than at Louise's and I was okay with the Fergus flashbacks. I didn't have a firm mental picture of what the star chamber looked like but when I saw it, I realized that there it was.

Oddly, the only times my tears sprang forth was when Claire returned home with the servants lined up and when Louise visited her at the hospital.  The first act with Claire losing the baby was so intense that my focus was in taking it all in. For me, there was something missing in the Jamie/Claire reunion scene.  I can't put my finger on it but I was a little let down.  I'm getting ready to view again so perhaps I'll have a different opinion in the light of day.

I did love a wooly-bully Jamie, though!

On a technical note, it took me three attempts before I could view the episode.  My Starz app on my iPad kept telling me I needed to call Starz and upgrade my service.  As if!  On my Charter OnDemand, this episode hasn't been added.  Finally, I was able to watch through the Starz web site on my trusty PC.  Just how many devices are required in order to be an early viewer?!

Edited May 21, 2016 by Clawdette

[AheadofStraight]

Clawdette, I felt similar on first watch but not on second. I think it is because I had built it up so much in my mind and I needed to get through it once. In the end, I do like what they did. I also didn't cry until the scene with the servants (& I'm the type who can cry at everything).

Nitpicks: Kind of a British accent instead of Boston for Bree? Sam's fake beard kept taking me a bit out of the scene. I felt like it even altered the way he moved his lips when he spoke. (Lawd knows how often I've watched those lips...For research purposes...;) I also would've liked some sort of blue light with Raymond, even if very subtle.

All in all, extremely well done but probably not an episode I'll watch often on repeat, just due to the feels.

[ElsieH]

I'm spent.... Can't believe how well done that was. Although, Mr Elsie walked in during the Fergus scene and declared the show sick and perverted. I guess it must look like that to an outsider, makes me a little sad (but on the other hand he's not totally wrong). Guess I'll be rewatching tonight by myself. Probably for the best since I think my reaction will be equally as sniffly. I can't even think about it without tearing up. The mark of a great show in my opinion because I never reacted this way when reading the book. 

[morgan]

I personally liked that they gave Bree an English accent.  She has English parents, it makes more sense even living in Boston.  From my personal experience I live in Boston and have several expat English friends whose children all speak with English accents, even the ones born here.  Now, their parents think they sound American which I think is hysterical because they don't.  But I'm guessing they hear the subtle differences that living here gives.  It's how I've always envisioned Bree's to be.

 

I also saw lots of blue in that whole scene with Master Raymond.  When he steps away after healing her it's a noticeable difference.

I just finished my second viewing with mr. morgan and need to run a kid to soccer.  Will watch again tonight with the TSATS live tweet.   Might need to stop at target for more tissues.

Edited May 21, 2016 by morgan

[SoTheresThat]

2 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

Clawdette, I felt similar on first watch but not on second. I think it is because I had built it up so much in my mind and I needed to get through it once. In the end, I do like what they did. I also didn't cry until the scene with the servants (& I'm the type who can cry at everything).

Nitpicks: Kind of a British accent instead of Boston for Bree? Sam's fake beard kept taking me a bit out of the scene. I felt like it even altered the way he moved his lips when he spoke. (Lawd knows how often I've watched those lips...For research purposes...;) I also would've liked some sort of blue light with Raymond, even if very subtle.

All in all, extremely well done but probably not an episode I'll watch often on repeat, just due to the feels.

His voice even sounded different to me in the scenes when he had the beard.  Maybe the beard did affect the way he moved his lips. 

[AheadofStraight]

So watching on my laptop, the lighting does look blue in the room while he's touching her and then goes back to "normal" once he is done. Guess that qualifies as subtle. :)

[morgan]

He did sound different but I loved it because so much had happened to change him and I just felt his voice, everything, just screamed that change.  I thought it was artistic choice rather than beard.  I just loved his short scene there.  He looked like such a shipwrecked soul, the profound stuff he had been going through all season and especially since finding Fergus with BJR...all of it, the duel, the rift with Claire because if it (he had no choice but knew he betrayed her, the prison time, the loss of Faith.  The knowledge that France was essentially a failure, etc)  reminded me of Tom Hanks a bit in Cast Away.  That solemness.  God it just wrenched my gut.  And Claire and Jamie finally together as they should be at the end.  Beautiful.  

[morgan]

I didn't notice the blue as much on my first early watch on my phone, but it was very apparent on my second viewing on the tv.  Beautifully done.

[SoTheresThat]

1 hour ago, morgan said:

He did sound different but I loved it because so much had happened to change him and I just felt his voice, everything, just screamed that change.  I thought it was artistic choice rather than beard.  I just loved his short scene there.  He looked like such a shipwrecked soul, the profound stuff he had been going through all season and especially since finding Fergus with BJR...all of it, the duel, the rift with Claire because if it (he had no choice but knew he betrayed her, the prison time, the loss of Faith.  The knowledge that France was essentially a failure, etc)  reminded me of Tom Hanks a bit in Cast Away.  That solemness.  God it just wrenched my gut.  And Claire and Jamie finally together as they should be at the end.  Beautiful.  

Good point about his voice change in that scene.  I didn't think of it that way.  And I guess I'd sound pretty rough too if I'd just gotten released from the Bastille.

Going back now to watch for the blue light.  I didn't catch that either.

[Starla]

Wow, I loved this episode so much more than this section of the book. I skipped a couple of these chapters in the book because Claire and Jamie’s separation dragged on and on for months and I couldn’t take it. I thought the storyline flowed so much better in the show, and rather than frustration and irritation, I felt proper intense emotions for the loss of baby Faith, Claire finding out happened to Fergus (though I could have done with less visuals for that scene), and Jamie and Claire’s reunion.

The scene when Claire was recounting her experience to Jamie was so strikingly heartbreaking, with the room being deathly still except for the clock ticking in the background. Claire taking about holding baby Faith had me sobbing with her. She truly looked out of her mind with grief in those scenes. I also thought Jamie’s deep, quiet voice and presence during this scene was perfect. Not only has he changed, but he was so calm and quiet with Claire, knowing all she had been through alone and not being sure if she would have him back.

6 hours ago, morgan said:

any other old Lost watchers expect heroin to fall out when the Madonna statue broke?  Lol

I had the exact same thought. For a second I expected something to fall out of it, then I thought "wait, wrong show!"

[WatchrTina]

Wow.  That just ripped my heart out.  Analysis later -- now, only feelings.  Wow. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I really enjoyed this one. And like others, so, so glad that they didn't drag out the scene where Claire lost Faith, you know, how Mother Hildegarde "dug her fingers" or pressed them "deeply" inside Claire, and I thought they weren't going to have Master Raymond come in and save her, but he did! And I saw how instead of how, in the buik, I'd imagined a more...aura like blue surrounding them, there was stil blue. Like, the whole scene had a blue tinge to it when he was healing her. So I guess that's the "most" Ron will go with the more fantastical part.

I cry verra easily. Yet, I didn't tear up until the end. And when Fergus told Claire why Jamie broke his promise. I, too, could have done without the visual, especially seeing Tobias moving his hips to show he was raping Fergus. UGH. At least it wasn't too prolonged. I would have much preferred seeing Jamie kicking his ass more and see Black Jack tumbling and falling down the stairs.

Cait was amazing. I mean, I'm getting peeved at the look of righteous anger on her face when she's telling Mother how Jamie broke his promise, when I know she doesn't know why he did it, but knowing Jamie as he does, she has to know something must have happened to have Jamie break his promise. That he wouldn't have broken it on a whim. 

Ah, St. Compte Germain, how I'll miss your sneering and refusal to speak in English wi' Jamie. The actor was really verra good in showing his fear when realizing the cup was poisoned.

I was distracted by Jamie's beard. I expected it to be more straggly and not as well groomed as it was. And boy, did Jamie also break my heart here. "Will ye make me beg, Claire?"

I loved the change in voice that Sam used, but alas, 'tis gone next week.

Speaking of which: SCOTLAND!  And that wily bastard Lord Lovat!!

[Glaze Crazy]

11 hours ago, morgan said:

 

i have to run but quickly need to add, any other old Lost watchers expect heroin to fall out when the Madonna statue broke?  Lol

 

I did!

[Petunia846]

My expectation for hidden drugs came from an episode of Leverage, but I too was surprised there was nothing there. Heh.

[Oranaiche]

Well fuck. I don't normally cry over television, but that was just ridiculous. I think this was the best episode of the series by far, and while I didn't love Caitriona as Claire in season one, she is winning me over more and more in season two (well ok, I'm officially won over after this one). What I'm noticing this season is that a lot of things are playing out exactly as I pictured them, and this episode was no exclusion. I was enamored by the "La Dame Blanche" scene. It really could not have been more well done.

I was just chuckling to myself because "Outlander" has had me an emotional mess all week. I was listening to "A Breath of Snow and Ashes" earlier this week and there was a part that had me so knotted up with anxiety that when the resolve finally came, I burst into tears. I wish Claire and Jamie would give my heart a goddamn break. I'm not usually a cryer!

[WatchrTina]

OMG this episode.  So good.  So heart-breaking.

THE GOOD

The title card!  They broke their own rule and turned it into a flash-forward.  I LOVE this because it serves the dual purpose of:

1. clarifying for the unsullied that the pregnancy Claire was carrying when she returned to Frank was a different child than the one she lost in this episode (some people seem to still be confused on that point) and
2. letting us know that the second pregnancy was successful, which is a legitimate question after seeing what happened in this and the last episode.  Placental abruptions do not happen just because a woman is upset, so anyone who knows that would rightly wonder if Claire CAN carry a baby to term.  This scene answers that question.

There is a recurring theme in this episode of camera angles in which the scene is shot from directly above or below, which is a choice that I don’t think we have seen very often before.  I like it because it is (I think) inspired by Claire’s opening observation in the chapter that finds her at the hospital after the duel.  She stares up at the gothic ceiling arch directly above her, which is not centered over the bed, and that lack of symmetry disturbs her fevered mind.  That camera angle is used again in the episode, most notably in the Star Chamber (how cool is THAT) and when Jamie finally returns home.  I don’t think you can use shots like that very often but I liked those shots as a kind of visual leitmotif for this episode.

Cait and Francis de la Tour’s acting was off-the-charts good in the scene where Claire is demanding her baby and Mother Hildegard has to tell her it was born dead.  Heart.  Breaking.

I am so glad that Claire said “I need my husband” early on in the hospital scenes and I’m glad that Mother Hildegard finds out where Jamie is tells Claire fairly quickly thereafter.  Last night I re-read the scenes in the book that follow the duel (because I have NO self-control) and I found myself really irritated at Claire’s failure to inquire about Jamie and her blasé assumption that he simply hasn’t bothered to show up because he feels guilty.  She actually thinks he’s going to go off to Spain for the wine caper (which hasn’t happened yet at this point in the books) without seeing her first.  This annoyed me greatly.  I like the TV version better.

I love that M. Raymond (he of the many secret and magical talents) has a way with Bouton.  It just adds to his mystique. 

I’m relieved that the show kept M. Raymond’s magical healing powers and even worked in his explanation that he called Claire “Madonna” not because she was pregnant but because her aura is blue like the Virgin’s cloak (and his own aura.)  They may never pay that off and non-readers may miss it completely but I appreciate the fan-service to the readers.

Claire’s homecoming scene KILLED me.  I wept over her greeting to Magnus, who saved her life.  Bear McCreary’s music – “Faith’s theme” -- playing over the whole thing was just gut-wrenching.

Aw.  We got to see Fergus brushing Claire’s hair after all.  Aaaand then we get the foreshadowing – his look at the perfume bottles underscored by the violins of impending doom.

The rape of Fergus.  Yes, I’m including it in the “good” section because I am genuinely surprised that they could depict that part of the book and not alienate me completely.  They put Fergus in that room for a legitimate reason (he is a pick-pocket with impulse-control issues) and they had Jack say “You’re not what I ordered.  But you’ll do.” That is true to the character of Black Jack as he has been depicted in the show (basically an opportunistic sadist) but it is slightly less awful than the book where I think he specified a young boy and the Madam gave him Fergus, who had worked there as a child prostitute and who just happened to be visiting.  I was also worried about 14-year-old Romann having to play that scene but I suspect that he was only in the room to film the struggle (clothes on) and was not present when they filmed Jack thrusting so I applaud them for walking that fine line.  They showed enough and (in my opinion) not too much.

When Claire goes to ask Mother Hildegard for help getting an audience with the king she seems to be back in Scottish-style dress (fichu and stomacher), which I liked as it foreshadows their return to Scotland (and the fact that Claire is just DONE with Paris).

“If it comes to sacrificing my virtue, I’ll add it to the list of the things I’ve already lost in Paris.”  Love that line.

I love the glance Claire throws at the king’s bed when she is led to the secret door.  It says so clearly “Wait, what are we doing?”

King Louis.  Damn.  That scene with Claire was so well written.  The kissing of the rings creeped me out and his calling her “La Dame Blanche” (cue the creepy violins) was even better. 

Can I just say that I wish I had watched this episode with an unspoiled viewer because I would love to see someone’s reaction when they enter the star chamber.  The masked guards, the “starlight” ceiling, M. Forez – it is all such a magnificent WTF moment.

Claire’s muttered “Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ” made me laugh and I generally hate that particular affectation.  This time it really worked.

Stanley Weber’s performance as Le Comte St. Germain was perfect.  I believed him when he denied being involved with that group of rapists.  I believed his fear and dismay and anger.  Superb performance.

Loved the potion-detection stone and the role it played.  It was Chekov’s gun – introduced during the dinner party several episodes ago (so we know that St. Germain knows what it is) and paid off here when we get to witness his horror at seeing it turn black.  And then, when the stone turns white again – so creepy – almost as though it is confirming his death.

When Louis says “There is still the matter of payment” Claire gives the body of St. Gemain exactly the same glance she gave the bed earlier as if to say a second time “Wait, what are we doing?”

Lionel Lingelser did a great job making me like King Louis with his “mean girl” taunting of Jack two episodes ago.  He did a great job killing those feelings in this episode. 

I kind of love that Claire took her orange.  I want to know if that was in the script.

Louise was great in that scene at the hospital and I think the writers did a great job of cutting out a lot of unnecessary business from the book including Claire holding up at Louise’s country estate for weeks, meeting extraneous Huguenots, and then having to “run away” from there complete with locking a maid-servant in an armoire and basically stealing a carriage.

When Claire starts to ugly cry after handing over the baby for burial, that was just heart-breaking.

Claire telling Jamie immediately about sleeping with the king is a big improvement over the books in my opinion.  I always hated that she kept it a secret and I really hated that weird scene in the countryside where he “punishes” her by brushing nettles across her bare breasts.  That’s possibly my least-favorite Jamie-Claire scene in all 8 books.  I also really like his equating her giving her body to the king with his giving his body to Black Jack.  Each did it to save the other.  There was no hint of Claire’s having done it, in part, to punish Jamie, as there is in the books.

The look on Jamie’s face when Claire asks to go back to Scotland got me right in the feels.  I think he speaks for many viewers in that we are all ready to put Paris (and all its intrigues) behind us.

The two of them holding hands at the grave at the end is EVERYTHING.

 

THE BAD

I guess the heron at the beginning is supposed to symbolize Faith and the shot of the empty sky to symbolize her death.  I’m not sure that really works.  Why a heron?

I really needed to SEE Fergus get the hell out of that bedroom after Jamie and Jack fight and Jamie is dragged away.  Five more seconds is all I needed – just show Fergus scampering out from under that table and out of that room.  To quote Book!Jamie “Fighting gives ye a fearful cock-stand.” So Fergus really needs to be elsewhere while Jack is rolling around on the floor post-fist-fight.

I hate the following bits of dialog:

1. To the priest:  “My sins are all I have left.”  WTF is that supposed to mean?
2. Voice-over in the star chamber when M. Raymond’s departure makes her think of a line from a movie: “You know the one.  I’ll miss you most of all.” Yes we know the one.  We remember when you referenced it in season 1.  Twice.  Please don’t do it again. And don’t break the fourth wall by addressing the viewer directly. Hated that.
3. Voice-over in the King’s bedchamber “I closed my eyes and thought of England.” Yes I get the reference.  Yes I know that is supposedly the advice that was given to English brides-to-be with regard to their wedding nights.  This is not Claire’s wedding night and if she was going to think of any country it should have been Scotland.  Stupid line.  I can’t believe it made it past that extraordinarily talented writers’ room.
4. Claire’s line about Mother Hildegard having an odd sense of humor in naming the baby “Faith” was . . . weird.  It felt out-of-character and full of misplaced anger.  I wish they had left it out.

When Claire enters Louis’ bedchamber she doesn’t look scared to me.  She looks a bit imperious.  So the king’s line “Don’t be afraid, I don’t bite” doesn’t make sense.

When Louis tells M. Forez to read the accusations he uses the expression “sil vous plait” or “If you please.”  I don’t think it is in character for a king to use that expression when giving a command to a servant in that situation.

M. Raymond’s recovery from the bitter cascara was too quick and not at all consistent with how the drug was depicted when Claire drank it.  Claire was completely debilitated.  I suppose M. Raymond – knowing what was coming (from the smell?) – could do a better job of ignoring the pain and being stoic, but still.  I recall that a different trick (potion) was used in the book.  I understand why they went back to the one-and-only non-lethal faux poison that we, the viewers, are acquainted with, but it’s an inconsistency that bothers me.

Does it make sense that the French King can arrange a pardon for Jamie in England?  Isn’t France at war with England?  I guess these little king-to-king accommodations for unimportant items like the life-or-death of a minor Scottish Laird can still be routinely handled even when the two kings are fighting one another somewhere (Belgium?) but that bit of the story has always struck me as somewhat implausible.

I said above that I liked the shot-from-above camera leitmotif of this episode but the one place where it gave me some trouble was Jamie’s first scene after being released.  He looked so small on the stairs, I mistook him for Fergus at first.

Jamie’s beard, Mon Dieu!  I know fake beards are hard but, damn.  Also it was ridiculous that his hair looked so good after going unwashed for a month.  His clothes looked like they’d been slept in for a month, but not the hair.

The cutting back-and-forth between Claire singing to Faith in the flashback and reaction shots of Jamie in the present was . . . weird.  It was as if they were showing him listening to the song, which of course he could not be doing.

I’m struggling with Jamie & Claire’s final reconciliation scene.  I know they are using dialog from the books – like when Jamie says he forgave her long ago for anything that she may ever do, but I still struggle with that scene.  I don’t know if I get how Claire thinks everything is her fault.  And I REALLY hate when she mentions Black Jack Randall, saying it’s not even his fault.

Okay I needed another 10-second shot of Jamie burying the spoon at Faith’s grave.  They just can’t just leave it there – someone will take it.

 

THE UGLY

Oh. My. God.  Claire being worked on by the King’s executioner with bloody hands and metal instruments – my horror knows no bounds.

 

OTHER

I’m not sure how I feel about Claire embracing the term “White Witch.”  Is that in the book?  I guess she had no choice under the circumstances, but after Crainsmuir I am made very uncomfortable by the use of the term “witch” in Claire’s vicinity.  Then again, perhaps that is the point.

I think it’s good that they included that line about the English ambassador asking for Jack to be allowed to recover back in England (since it explains how it is that HE is not being punished for dueling the way Jamie is – which is never addressed in the books as far as I can recall) but I still say the writers have created a conundrum for themselves since I have to assume that Alex accompanied his brother back to England.  Now he knows that Jamie nearly killed his brother.  I’ll be interested to see how he comes to invite that man (of all the people in the world) to serve as a witness at Jack’s wedding to Mary.

WTF kind of snake was that?  Did I see horns on its snout?

ETA:  I've been wondering what Claire did with that orange.  I've concluded that she took it home and gave it to Fergus, telling him it was a gift from the King.  Wouldn't that be a nice moment?

Edited May 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[morgan]

WatchrTina, if you get a chance listen to Alastair's/Scot and Sass DIA seminar for this part of the book in particular.  A lot about Claire being an unreliable narrator when she muses that Jamie isn't trying to see her because he is off doing whatever.  I think you might find it interesting.  

Gettin ready for the live view!  

[Miss Slay]

That was by far my favorite episode of the season. Caitriona Balfe should submit it to the Emmys.

I'm floored... I thought it was really well done, especially the parts with the King.

[chocolatetruffle]

OMG!! Best episode of the season - possibly the entire series. The last 10 minutes was E.VER.Y.THING! 

I'm basket case and an emotional wreck.  This sequence of storytelling was better than the book, by far. WOW!!

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

 

1. Voice-over in the King’s bedchamber “I closed my eyes and thought of England.” Yes I get the reference.  Yes I know that is supposedly the advice that was given to English brides-to-be with regard to their wedding nights.  This is not Claire’s wedding night and if she was going to think of any country it should have been Scotland.  Stupid line.  I can’t believe it made it past that extraordinarily talented writers’ room

 

She was being ironic, not literal.  I don't think people - especially people from the 20th century - think that line is anything but comedy making fun of the Victorians.  I actually thought it was a needed tension-breaker.  I actually chuckled.

Here I go being literal but you know what bothered me? That she told Jamie that she "slept with" Louis.  Ron Moore used that same phrase when he mentioned it in the little behind-the-scenes feature, too.  "Had sex with" would have been much more accurate and less, I dunno, modern.  

I was bothered that Jamie forgave Claire for losing the baby instead of just telling her it wasn't her fault, which it wasn't.  

Edited May 22, 2016 by toolazy

[Dust Bunny]

That was like watching a three act play. And yet, so much was said without a single word.

Cait was outstanding. The nuance she can bring to every scene is amazing. And across-the-board, every actor brought it - even Bouton and the snake. 

The scene with the servants was so touching. Considering this is the last time we'll see most of these Paris characters, everyone got a nice curtain call. Louise's visit was beautiful - and so sad.

Tiny voice: I was a wee underwhelmed with the reunion scene. I played that up in my head so much, I don't think the show could have met it for me. It's like when I imagined the paintings in the Sistine Chapel ceiling would be huge, so when I actually saw it I was disappointed. I looked up, thinking "This is the friggin Sistine Chapel - appreciate it!", but I still felt a wee disappointed. Here I imagined the garden scene with Claire being trapped and then Jamie forcing her to see the sun, and so the change in scene threw me a bit. I was thinking "This is the friggin reunion scene - appreciate it!", but I still felt a wee underwhelmed. It's the first time that's happened to me, which I guess is a great ratio for book-to-show expectations.

Further tiny voice: I wasn't a huge fan of the even slight insinuation by Jamie that Claire needed to be forgiven "for this". Maybe it's the fact that I now can't have biological kids due to breast cancer treatment, but any insinuation that a woman caused anything like this really rubbed me the wrong way. I get Jamie is an 18th century guy, etc., etc., etc. Still, I wish that one line had been cut. It didn't need to be there. It took me out of the scene. I feel bad having those tiny voices, but they did happen a wee bit.

Still, in general, this was one of the most thoughtful, most beautiful, and well-paced episodes Outlander has done thus far. I loved how Sam's tone made it clear that Jamie was speaking to Faith in the last scene. The way Sam said "Saint Andrew" was so precious. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[springbarb]

25 minutes ago, toolazy said:

I was bothered that Jamie forgave Claire for losing the baby instead of just telling her it wasn't her fault, which it wasn't.  

Yes, that really annoyed me.

[Archery]

Claire was not in a place to hear "It was not your fault."  She needed to hear forgiveness.  Anyway, I think Jamie was referring to Everything, not just the loss of Faith.  

In that long moment of incomprehension and silence after M. Hildegarde tells Claire that Faith was stillborn, I thought, "There's your Emmy reel."  One thing I love about this episode is how it took its time.  That pause, the slow trek into the house, the time it took for Claire to hand Faith over to Louise, the long moment before Claire spoke to Jamie -- all of those showed such patience on the part of the director.  They were such important beats.

The episode was so authentic.  I didn't cry (I thought I would), but just found myself nodding throughout the first half thinking, "Yes, that's exactly how it felt."  And then in the second half, with the Star Chamber, I wasn't really able to picture it reading the book, but I think it must have looked exactly like this.  

I think they needed to show what they showed of Fergus' rape.  Otherwise, Jamie breaking his vow would never feel justified.  But that kid broke my heart.

I even felt bad for the Comte.  He took that hit like a boss.  

[Bort]

My only problem with the directing was the poisoning scene with the count and the fact they felt a need to flashback to a scene that we literally had seen 30 seconds ago of Raymond with the goblet. It reminded me of the flashback scene from Spy Hard.

[Wouldofshouldof]

18 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

As sad and serious as everything was, I had to laugh out loud the first time we focused on Sam with that crazy beard. Heh.

I'm currently reading Voyager and had wondered what Sam would look like with a beard in that season . . . yikes!

3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

M. Raymond’s recovery from the bitter cascara was too quick and not at all consistent with how the drug was depicted when Claire drank it.  Claire was completely debilitated.  I suppose M. Raymond – knowing what was coming (from the smell?) – could do a better job of ignoring the pain and being stoic, but still.  I recall that a different trick (potion) was used in the book.  I understand why they went back to the one-and-only non-lethal faux poison that we, the viewers, are acquainted with, but it’s an inconsistency that bothers me.

I just finished DIA this week.  The Comte was the one to bring out the snake (I thought it was weird that he had one in his coat!), saying that when it struck down Claire it would prove she was a witch.  Then Raymond suggested he, the Comte and Claire all drink the poison instead.  He had recently showed her the trick with the dragon's blood, and she knew it was harmless.  She and Raymond drank first, then he poisoned the cup before passing it to the Comte.

[toolazy]

It's true - Jamie's beard wasn't nearly straggly enough.  

[Quickbeam]

I did look for heroin when the Madonna broke! And I hated the beard. It looked really fake to me. 

[WatchrTina]

Well, if anyone is interested in seeing what Sam's beard actually looks like when he lets it grow long, here you go.  This is from last summer while he was filming "When the Starlight Ends" in which he sports a heavy (real) beard.  I kind of love this photo because it's so different from any other published photos of Sam.  He's so "Duuuude!"  (Note, Sam re-tweeted this photo or I would not have published it.  I'm opposed to sharing photos taken of celebrities in private moments.)

Edited May 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Haleth]

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

When Claire goes to ask Mother Hildegard for help getting an audience with the king she seems to be back in Scottish-style dress (fichu and stomacher), which I liked as it foreshadows their return to Scotland (and the fact that Claire is just DONE with Paris).

I thought the dress she was wearing at the end when Jamie returned also looked very Scottish. At least it was quite different from the Paris fashions.

Brava, Caitriona!  Her performance in this episode was stellar.  (No pun intended.)  The grief bookending the episode, the anger, the resignation (of having to submit to the king), the fear (of handing St Germaine the cup), all were outstanding.  And I loved her subtle expression when she was "thinking of England."  Her face was like, "Wait.  That's it?"  (Confused and disgusted.)  You go, girl, for taking the orange.

My heart broke for Fergus.  I'm anxious to read the non book thread to see what viewers thought about this.  (Was it over the top that BJR raped a kid too?)  That child has the face of an angel.  I'll be sorry when he's replaced by grown up Fergus.

I totally agree about the beard.

[ElsieH]

One nitpick I had... Shouldn't they be into 1745 by now? Yet the date on the gravestone said 1744. Seems like too much has happened to still be 1744.

[Thalia]

I wonder if they decided to add the 1954 prologue to this episode to assure non-book readers that Claire didn't return to the 20th century pregnant with the heir to the King of France?  Cuz you know they'd wonder. 

While I understand why they had to change things around to fit the hour of TV time allotted, I preferred the way the book revealed that Jamie knew about the price Claire had paid for his freedom. 

I will miss Louise, which means props to the actress playing her, because I never really cared for her in the book.  And I'm sure that Murtagh will miss Suzette.  But other than that, I think it is time for the extended Fraser clan to go home.  

Edited May 22, 2016 by Thalia

[morgan]

Fascinating speculation on non book reader thread that Bree is Geillis.  Which made no sense to me at first but I can see how that could be considered.  As book readers we met an older Bree and knew that couldn't be, but the way the show has done it has made it actually plausible.  Not that they are going there, but found it interesting.  

[nodorothyparker]

Caitriona Balfe really shone this episode.  This woman knows how to sell grief and heartbreak.  I like that the show allowed the time and space to explore the confusion and shock and ultimately sorrow of what she was going through.  I'll have to remember this next time her Claire as a haughty know it all is working my last nerve.

I really could have done with about a half or a third as much of the raping of Fergus.  At this point, Black Jack is such a cartoon villain who will rape you, your wife, your kids, your pets, and whatever random livestock you've got around that it's just too much.  There was the right amount of menace in the first scene ending with "You're not what I ordered, but you'll do" that we shouldn't have seen anything else until Jamie heard Fergus scream and burst in.  We didn't need any more visuals.  Certainly not any thrusting.  We get it.  I barely got my nonbook husband back after last season's two-part rapefest by playing up the discussion about the possible ramifications of time travel and meddling with recorded history and now he's just completely disgusted again that the show couldn't restrain itself even with a child.

I'm not a huge Raymond fan book or show because I don't really care for mysterious characters being mysterious that never really offer any payoff, so this is about what I expected.  I also don't care all that much for the whole star chamber thing in the books because it feels like such a convoluted and anticlimactic end to the Comte, who seemed even oddly more out of place here because the show has barely remembered to mention that he was a reputed weirdo dabbling in the black arts.  I did get a tremendous kick out of Claire's "Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ" when she realized what she had walked into and that she was going to have to make it up as she went along and do it convincingly if she didn't want them all to end up dead.  

I am really grateful that they skipped the bizarre nettle scene from the book.  The only thing that worked for me there was Jamie understanding what standard operating procedure was for asking favors from the king and thus already knowing what Claire had likely done.  Otherwise, the show change was much preferable, although I found Claire's word choice that she "slept" with the king rather jarring.

The king's wig was so distractingly ill fitting that it was hard to pay attention to anything enough to take him seriously.  I'll at least give Claire credit for being consistent in her love for The Wizard of Oz.

Edited May 22, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[WatchrTina]

Quote

I thought the dress she was wearing at the end when Jamie returned also looked very Scottish. At least it was quite different from the Paris fashions.

That dress (dark blue, white puffy sleeves) shows up VERY briefly in an earlier episode when Claire hands Jamie the letter from Jared.  In the podcast with Ron, Terry was sad that we only caught a glimpse of it so I was glad to see it back again -- especially since its dark color is appropriate to Claire's mourning state.  Terry said it was based on a specific painting from 18th century France so it's definitely French-inspired and not Scottish. (You can probably find the painting itself on Terry's blog -- I'm almost certain she posted it.)  The Scot and the Sassenach called it the pirate dress in their podcast, which annoyed me because it's one of my favorites.

[emilyplum]

Add me to the list of those thankful we skipped the "do you want to beat me for it"/nettles NONSENSE from the book.  To me that was the most out of character Jamie and Claire moment in the books up until their bizarre sex after Claire's rescue in Breath of Snow and Ashes.  That one still seems needlessly dramatic to me.

This episode stuck with me all day after I watched it, and I'm still thinking about it 24 hours later. 

My only problem was with the cotton ball fake beard.  Even scraggly stubble would have been better than that.  It looked so fake it was distracting.  

I was surprised they didn't have Louis hopping up to finish with this wife/mistres instead of Claire, so as to avoid a possible half-Royal baby, like in the book.  

I think this whole episode was done far better than the book depicted the events.  I'm so glad also that all the wine/smallpox/Portugal shenanigans were already finished and we didn't have the whole side plot of her thinking Jamie was accomplishing his mission while actually he was in the Bastille.

Edited May 22, 2016 by kariyaki
spoiler tags not necessary in Book Talk thread

[MedievalGirl]

On a lighthearted note, I thought the beard looked fake too. However, immediately after we watched the local news and some sportsball guy's beard looked exactly the same. Lol

[peacefrog]

21 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

That dress (dark blue, white puffy sleeves) shows up VERY briefly in an earlier episode when Claire hands Jamie the letter from Jared.  In the podcast with Ron, Terry was sad that we only caught a glimpse of it so I was glad to see it back again -- especially since its dark color is appropriate to Claire's mourning state.  Terry said it was based on a specific painting from 18th century France so it's definitely French-inspired and not Scottish. (You can probably find the painting itself on Terry's blog -- I'm almost certain she posted it.)  The Scot and the Sassenach called it the pirate dress in their podcast, which annoyed me because it's one of my favorites.

I think the poster was talking about the dress at the end by the grave, not the blue dress. It did look Scottish with the florals!

[peacefrog]

I've lost 2 long posts. This last try.

Was that a thrush in Brianna's school book?!! I agree about the use of the heron. It wasn't set up to have meaning and came across awkward.

Raymond healing Claire was so different in my mind and I'm happy with screen version. For some reason I had in my head his blue light special was like the Emperor in Return of the Jedi, lol. Lightning bolts!

Star chamber scene blew me away, Claire and Comte so beautiful and were only upstaged by the set. Stanley was so good, his portrayal of fear, anger and even bravery were brilliant! I hope the show goes off books and has him dropping in on Claire to annoy her in future seasons.They never set up in the show that Raymond is a TT do they?

Jamie's line of "Frank is your family" was amazing. What a fabulous line and bit of characterization. This first half of the season has it's problems but Jamie has not been one. 

It was a wonderful episode and as the credits rolled there was silence on my couch. Then I heard my husband sniffling, then sobbing that it was so sad and unfair. I even might have cried at the end but I definitely was spent and drained. 

[WatchrTina]

Okay, I've come up with a theory about the heron.  It was, specifically, a blue heron (which is a beautiful bird I've seen in person in south Louisiana where I grew up.)  When M. Raymond comes to the hospital and puts his hands on Claire's face he asks her what she sees and she says "blue wings" -- like those of a blue heron.  When young Brianna asks Claire about the bird her first response (identifying it) does not trigger any memories but when Bree asks her where she saw it and she says "Scotland" you can see Claire face change for an instant.  Maybe she's thinking "Oh, I shouldn't have mentioned Scotland" but she may also be reacting to the floodgates of memories that have suddenly opened with the picture of the blue heron reminding her of the blue wings she saw while Raymond healed her, which would, of course, lead to her thinking about Faith.  From there the image of the flying heron can be interpreted as both Claire's memories winging back to her time with Jamie in France and -- when the heron disappears from the shot of the sky and all we see is a stark, white, overcast sky -- a symbol of Faith who has "flown away" and become another winged creature, an angel.  It's a bit of a fan-wank but I can live with it.

Edited May 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Keeta]

This might be my favorite episode of the season so far. I felt much more engrossed throughout than I have in most of this season's other episodes. 

Loved the short opening scene with Claire and Brianna in Boston. Claire looked so 50s it made me smile. I'm very interested to see who the show demonstrates the passing of time, so it was nice to get a glimpse of that.

What an amazing performance by Stanley Weber. The look(s) on his face is really sticking with me. That scene was so well done, and a terrific completion of that story arc.

Completely agree with all the praise for Caitriona's performance. Simply incredible. I teared up several times, which I don't often do while watching Outlander, probably because I know the plot so well. 

I loved Claire and Jamie's reunion at the end, starting with Jamie's slow walk up the steps, face hidden. Sam's extra low, scraggly voice worked so well to convey the enormity of all that's happened. I've seen Maril Davis talk about Jamie's arc through this season, and I can see through the writing and Sam's performance how Jamie is continually maturing all the time, at a different pace than the books, but I think we'll get to the same place. 

Really nice touch to have Louise visit Claire at L'Hopital. I think that was the point where I basically broke down, not only to see such an important demonstration of friendship, but from an expecting mother too. Gah.

I haven't commented much (at all?) in any of the S2 episode threads, so I just have to commend the writers and Sam/Caitriona for the depth and intimacy of so many Claire/Jamie scenes. Every once in a while I'm reminded how fortunate we are as fans that the show has gotten that relationship so right on so many levels, and gives the time and space to these important and emotional scenes that you often don't see on television.

Minor quibbles:

• I felt Claire's suuuuuuuper slow walk up the gauntlet of servants back to the house felt too long. Kinda rolled my eyes a bit.
• I'm not convinced we needed to see Fergus's rape by Jack, but at least it was much more restrained than others we've seen. Part of me will always wish there wasn't as much rape as there is in this story, but you can't go back in time (ha) and change the source material, so whatever.
• Lastly, I really hope the back half of the season takes the opportunity to show Claire and Jamie united as a loving couple. The first half has so many challenges within their marriage, and we know what happens at the end, so I'm crossing my fingers we'll see some good times before Culloden.

And lastly: YAY SCOTLAND AGAIN AT LAST! France was good and all, but like the Frasers I'm ready to leave it behind.

[peacefrog]

1 hour ago, morgan said:

Fascinating speculation on non book reader thread that Bree is Geillis.  Which made no sense to me at first but I can see how that could be considered.  As book readers we met an older Bree and knew that couldn't be, but the way the show has done it has made it actually plausible.  Not that they are going there, but found it interesting.  

Lol I think the only reason they would think that is Geillis in the show is a redhead instead of blond. Doesn't Geillis flirt with Jamie in show?

[Nidratime]

Toni Graphia talks about the Blue Heron in this interview with Zap2it.

http://zap2it.com/2016/05/outlander-flashes-forward-to-brianna-claire-jamie-lose-faith/

Quote

 

The scene where Master Raymond heals Claire was less supernatural than I pictured when reading the books. Was that a conscious choice?

The healing scene was definitely a choice to make it more grounded. It’s one of my favorite things in the book — it’s very ethereal and mystical in the book. You imagine it with your mind and it says the room is glowing blue and on the page, your mind can fill it in. But on TV, all those things would have had to be special effects and they were at risk of looking cheesy instead of something that should be more beautiful and organic.

Inspired by Diana’s descriptions in the book about the blue color, Raymond says blue is the color of healing, that’s how I came up with the blue heron because I wanted to show it in an organic way so it won’t look silly but keep the same feeling as was in the book … He’s a magical character and they have a magical connection, so we didn’t want it to be too grounded, but we also didn’t want it to be where people are like, “Oh, c’mon!” So we hope we struck a balance.

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Nidratime

[chocolatetruffle]

So the first time through I was riveted. Caitriona's performance carried the show and she was brilliant at depicting Claire's arc of grief, desperation, resolve and forgiveness.  Loved it!! And I repeat - that final scene was amazing and soooo much better than in the book.

Upon subsequent viewings I noticed a few more subtle things that I missed first time through: mostly good, but a couple of issues. I really liked the opening of 1950's Claire & Bree.  This episode was about mother and child (I remembered Claire's fear that she didn't know how to be a mother) and I thought this was a nice nod to Claire's motherly instinct.  

I noticed that M. Raymond also removed the placenta from Claire, so he used a combination of conventional and alternative practice to heal her. Cool! Stanley Weber was a-freaking-mazing in the star chamber scene especially the moment when he realized the cup was poisoned (the changing stone was brilliant, but the flashback of M. Raymond placing the poison in the cup was so not needed: don't telegraph, we get it.)  Claire's "close my eyes and think of England" still makes me laugh and her taking the orange as she leaves was uber badass.

Although the episode was about the loss of Claire's first child, I realized that when Claire told Mother H. that she had forgiven Jamie because he was the "father of her child" she was talking about FERGUS!  He needed Jamie. He was blaming himself because Jamie was locked up.  Claire put aside her anger for wee Fergus' needs.  Which brings me too...

The scene in Fergus' room was beautiful and little Ramon was fantastic telling the story of what happened.  I totally agree with everything NoDorothyParker said above that we didn't need see BJR raping Fergus.  They should have cut the visual when BJR said "You'll do" and picked it up when Jamie heard Fergus scream. Our imagination is much more powerful when things remain unseen, especially since the actor was so moving in his description of what was done to him.  Stupid, stupid choice by the editors/director especially the "thrusting" which gross, OTT and took me right out of the story and I REALLY resent being taken out of the story at that moment.  

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

At this point, Black Jack is such a cartoon villain who will rape you, your wife, your kids, your pets, and whatever random livestock you've got around that it's just too much.

I know my response was inappropriate but this made me LOL: Hide your kids, hide your wife... cause BJR is rapin' everybody out here!!

And finally, Jamie's beard was great. But I couldn't help but notice that his hair had not grown an inch since the last time we saw him. They really should have put in some extensions, otherwise it looks like the Bastille's barbers only give haircuts, but no shaves. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by chocolatetruffle
to clarify that my response was inappropriate, not nodorothyparker's post, which was on point.