S03.E03: Good And Evil Braided Be

[Tara Ariano]

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Vanessa is confronted by a familiar who reveals a clue to her past.

[Primetimer]

Matt Debenham ranks the power couples of Penny Dreadful after 'Good And Evil Braided Be.'

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[raven]

Nooo!  I was not expecting that, I was expecting skinny-now-eaten vampire guy entering the white room, only pre-vampire.  John Clare knew Vanessa in the padded room :(  I wonder if she killed him?  I don't remember where Victor got his body from (must rewatch).

That damn consumption will get you every time.  Won't John's wife get in trouble if she tries to sell the watch - well, I assume there's somewhere shady she can go, and the guy who got robbed only saw John.  Aw, when John saw Vanessa on the street and got that little smile, like he was going to approach her, that was cute.   Wonder if he will get THOSE memories back?

 Dr. Sweet is too charming with Vanessa.  Smart not to go with a Dorian type of seduction, go for friendship, adding the tragic widower as a bonus.  I'm sure he will rebound from his minion putting her on high alert.  The actor playing Renfield is cracking me up with his obsessiveness.

I decided that the Ethan/Hecate and Malcolm/Kaetenay trips are not happening concurrently (they really can't without a TARDIS).  We must be jumping around in time a bit - Malcolm and Kaetenay may have begun their trip back from Africa but Ethan was maybe just arriving in the US?  That doesn't make sense either because Ethan left London before Malcolm. Ugh, forget it,  I won't even try.

Lily's plans are pretty interesting and Dorian is just sort of there.  I just kept thinking who will clean up all that blood?

Not sure how Jekyll and Victor will tie in, though I enjoy the lab scenes.

Season is shaping up pretty well.  Vanessa needs to dump Dracula and get to the Americas stat, apparently it's a quick and easy trip, unless you're Ethan.

[Glade]

I'm so glad to see John Claire back!  His scenes totally made this episode for me.  I also loved it when he saw Vanessa unexpectedly.  I kept wishing he would knock on the door and meet his old family, though I know it won't be that easy.  It looked like he stole a money-pouch, not a watch.  The final reveal of what he did and who he knew in his previous life was amazing. 

I also wondered who cleans Dorian's house, though I ff through all Lily scenes because I couldn't care less.  Today in America 50% of the trafficked children are boys, I'm sure it was the same in Victorian England, so I think it's sad that politically, both then and now, they are ignored.  It seems neither Lily nor Dorian care to remember Angelique either. It's not clear yet what Dorian's motivation is for supporting Lily's crusade but then again I don't think she's that earnest or free of hypocrisy herself.

[Ravenya003]

Wow, did not see that final reveal coming! John Logan, well done sir! 

It puts Vanessa/John Clare's interactions in an entirely different light: I wonder if it's the reason they were so in tune with each other on meeting for what was technically the second time, even though neither one remembered the other. And with John Clare's memories returning, I wonder if perhaps he'll remember her. 

I had seen promotional pictures of Vanessa in the asylum, and I was afraid it would mean Dr Seward would betray her. I like this better: that it's hypnosis/suppressed memories.

Not sure what the show was going for with the Dorian/Justice/Lily blood orgy, but I'm afraid I was laughing. They just don't do things by halves, do they. 

I know she's evil, but Hecate looked so cute in her little boots and jacket! 

Still secretly rooting for Lily, though I'm hesitant when it comes to the gender politics that John Logan is delving into (same goes for his decision to root Jekyll's Hyde in racial discrimination). Maybe if she starts killing innocent people instead of sexual predators I'll change my mind, but for now I'm discreetly cheering her on. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Dorian gets bored and turns on her though.

And Lily finally remembered Ethan! That was sad and sweet, though I almost dread their reunion.

[sjohnson]

The problem with remembering the last season finale is knowing that Ethan may be the wolf of God, but being the wolf of God is worth diddly squat. Ethan was an afterthought, just like the rest of the acolytes. Vanessa Ives, aka Amunet, has the power, the agency, the invincibility. Her only enemy with any power over her is self pity. At this point, the only plausible end game for the series is Vanessa/Amunet rejecting both Lucifer and Dracula to set up her own independent line of evil, what with rejecting God in favor of the pleasures of murder for revenge.The entire Ethan/Hecate/Malcolm/Kaetenay storyline has no weight for me when I remember this. (I did not believe the train scene. An old foreigner isn't going to terrorize two young men. A star can intimidate a bit player and an extra of course, but that's rather meta, isn't it?) 

As for Victor so quickly rediscovering hygiene, erect posture, non-crying and a passable simulacrum of adulthood? (Not to mention recovering from drug addiction?) Well, if you say so. As for Jekyll, since he's already a villain, it's hard to see how Mr. Hyde will have anything to contribute that a gun couldn't.

The appearance of real feminists suggests not just that John Logan saw Suffragette over the hiatus. To me it makes it glaringly clear that Lily is in no sense a feminist. I couldn't believe her sudden sentiments re Ethan, the man who brought Victor Frankenstein to her bedside.

Edited May 16, 2016 by sjohnson

[withanaich]

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QUESTION I MUST ASK: why doesn't he just bite her? 

 

I believe it was established that Vanessa needs to choose evil, rather than being forced or coerced (much like Hecate is trying to get Ethan to give in to his own inner darkness of his own accord). Which, I suppose, is why Dracula has set up this elaborate farce to get close to Vanessa in the first place, instead of taking her by force the way he did with Mina. Although I am confused how he got that job at the museum. Did he falsify an entire persona, or is he possessing some poor unsuspecting human with the perfect backstory? Also, why was his minion stupid enough to pester Vanessa in the first place? What on earth did he think was going to happen to him?

I loved the reveal with John Clare in the asylum. Firstly, after seeing the previews, I also thought that the doctor betrayed Vanessa and got her committed. Was not expecting it to be a flashback under hypnosis. And then I was expecting Dr. Sweet to walk in during the flashback ... and it was John Clare instead! Never saw that coming!

Count me in among those who finds Dorian dull. Dull as dishwater. Having an orgy covered in blood doesn't make him interesting, it's just nasty and boring. (I couldn't concentrate on the scene because I kept wondering who was going to have to clean that up!) Do not care. Instead of Lily making him more interesting, he's just dragging her story down. It's only compelling when she's discussing her terrible plans with Justine and Dorian is, you know, not there. Hell, give him his own spin-off if it means I don't have to see his smug-faced chicken-neck ass on my TV anymore. 

[Netfoot]

31 minutes ago, withanaich said:

Count me in among those who finds Dorian dull. Dull as dishwater. Having an orgy covered in blood doesn't make him interesting, it's just nasty and boring. (I couldn't concentrate on the scene because I kept wondering who was going to have to clean that up!) Do not care. Instead of Lily making him more interesting, he's just dragging her story down. It's only compelling when she's discussing her terrible plans with Justine and Dorian is, you know, not there. Hell, give him his own spin-off if it means I don't have to see his smug-faced chicken-neck ass on my TV anymore. 

Couldn't agree more.  He finds everything boring, and that makes him boring too.

[GenieinTX]

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I just kept thinking who will clean up all that blood?

I thought the same thing.  Who works for Dorian that they are willing to clean up so much blood without going to the police?  Surely he pays very well to hide his multitude of sins, but there is a limit.  He can't thrall them like Dracula can.  He's not magic.  He's just a guy who can't age or die.  Who was the maid at AHS: Hotel?  Maybe he found someone like that?  Maid who is also a killer herself? 

That blood orgy was ridiculous.  This show sometimes, I swear.  But I loved Dracula getting angry at the blonde minon.  It was scary and sexy and the same time, like a vampire should be.

[teddysmom]

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That blood orgy was ridiculous.  This show sometimes, I swear.  But I loved Dracula getting angry at the blonde minon.  It was scary and sexy and the same time, like a vampire should be.

I agree. I love this show to death but sometimes I find myself giving it the MST3K treatment.  

 Hecate's little cross body bag out in the desert is adorable! Did they stop at a Coach store on the way to steal horses?   

 Hecate killing that couple isn't exactly comparable to what Ethan does.  He has no power over himself, and in fact he turned himself in to be hung, just to stop his killing. Hecate is just a stone cold murderer. 

I do like the suffragette movement being brought up to compare to Lily's methods of gaining equality and finally dominance, over the men who did her wrong. And she remembers Ethan's kindness. That was a sweet touch.  I thought the description of what that man did to Justine was disgusting, and tbh, he deserved what he got. 

But seriously what are they using to get rid of all the blood?   Was Oxy Clean Spray a thing back then?  In a 40 gallon drum? 

"When you have blood all over your clothes, laundry might not be your first priority"  Jerry Seinfeld. 

[BuddhaBelly]

Dorian has to go. The ensemble is large enough and he adds shite. It's almost painful to have him still hanging around in the background, literally doing nothing at all. The actor seems nice but he's never embodies Dorian to me and he doesn't have a storyline, so...maybe it's time for a long trip.

Justine is giving me very strong Claudia from Interview with the Vampire vibes. The actress is doing a great part on something coiled underneath innocent skin. I like the way she plays across Lily and I can see her easily wanting to overtake Lily as leader of this crusade. Also, finally Lily mentions Ethan! It's really the confrontation I'm waiting for the most. She seems to still have fond memories of him. I wonder if that will change once she sees how intertwined he is with Vanessa. How much longer can they tease this?

I'm glad that Ethan referred to Kaetenay as his Apache father. I kept getting insincere vibes when Kaetenay called Ethan his son, but I feel better that the familiar reference goes both ways. How is Malcolm going to reach when he finds out about the wolf? That scene on the train was painful. That sort of stunted anger where you can't do anything to defend yourself and the embarrassment of having to rely on someone else to protect your dignity. Ugh! I need to know more about how the Lupus Dei plays into this whole puzzle. Why does Hecate think she can rule darkness by Ethan's side? What about Dracula and Lucifer in this whole thing? Isn't Lucifer her Master?

I'm not the biggest fan of Victor and watching him be a smug, arrogant little bitch toward Henry made me want to slap him. It was hateful for no reason, especially to someone who came to help you with your dumb plan. However, Henry is borderline unhinged in his quest to master duality. I'm sure it's totally pushed by the terrible treatment he experience in London and he would have not had any relief in Indian being half-caste.

Our Vanessa...man. When it rains it pours for her. I do enjoy that now that she's told Dr. Seward her story she's much freer in that office. It was hard to watch her timid and wounded. She really needs her boys around her. I knew that familiar has fucked up as soon as he licked her. What an idiot!

Oh! Favorite fan theory from Twitter is that the wife Sweets mentions is Mina. Please let this be true.

Edited May 16, 2016 by BuddhaBelly

[islandgal140]

Feels like the show exchanged one magical minority with another when Sembene was killed and enter stage right Kaetenay.

Sir Malcolm on the train telling off those assholes for disrespecting Kaetenay? Sweet Jebus. There is nothing quite like being verbally dragged calmly with a posh British accent. 

Ethan allowing Hecate's evil murdering ass to tag along and come with is making me not like him and lose interest in his story.  Even though her traveling outfit was tres cute, I want her gone. I wanted to slap the wolf out of him when he grabbed her hand and acted all protective when they were getting shot at by the Marshalls. 

In some of her scenes, I thought the actress who plays Hecate bares a resemblance to French actress Marion Cotillard. 

The reveal of the Portrait of Dorian Gray was last season's most disappointing reveal so Dorian has been a non-factor to me since then and continues to disappoint. I am finding Lily and her mass murdering with a feminist twist slightly more interesting. 

It is amazing what a season can do. I used to hate John Clare now he is easily one of the better more interesting characters. Loving learning more about his past life. However, something tells me he would have been better off just stealing money as opposed to a pocket watch which has to be pawned. Watch it be engraved. 

I am mesmerized by the Chinatown scenes. I want those red lanterns. 

Glad to see asylum Vanessa was a flashback and the good doctor didn't have her committed. Love the tie-in with John.

I still want to know what those creatures were S1 when the gang was trying to track down Mina. 

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But seriously what are they using to get rid of all the blood?  

My mind went straight to Mare Winningham's character from American Horror Story Hotel. LOL

Edited May 16, 2016 by islandgal140
add a thought

[teddysmom]

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h! Favorite fan theory from Twitter is that the wife Sweets mentions is Mina. Please let this be true.

I thought too  that the minute he said his wife was dead.  Her human husband was a lawyer, I think it was mentioned in the first season.  In Bram Stoker's Dracula movie, (didn't read the book) Keanu Reeve's character was a lawyer, Mina was his fiance, but she was Dracula's reincarnated dead wife Mina,  so that theory may work, if they're using that as source material for some of this story. 

[withanaich]

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 Hecate's little cross body bag out in the desert is adorable! Did they stop at a Coach store on the way to steal horses?   

Hee! I noticed that too. I'm sure women carried bags like that back then, especially on long trips, but it was just so modern-looking and chic.

[Tech Noir]

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  In Bram Stoker's Dracula movie, (didn't read the book) Keanu Reeve's character was a lawyer, Mina was his fiance, but she was Dracula's reincarnated dead wife Mina,  so that theory may work, if they're using that as source material for some of this story

That movie was a pretty faithful adaptation of the book. BUT - the original Mina is Mina Harker once she marries, but her maiden name is Murray, which of course is Sir Malcom's surname.  So yes, I think it is likely that is who Dracula is referring to here when he talks about his wife. Dr. Seward (Patti Lupone) is also in the book, but they have changed the gender here. One character that they have not introduced (unless I am forgetting something from the first season) is Lucy Westerna, who was Mina's friend and Dracula's victim before her.

Blood orgy. Eye roll. True Blood did it better. All I could think about was how terrible that would smell. And how sticky! Blood dries quickly on the skin.

Also! My current wild theory is that Dorian and Lily's pet murderer Justine (I agree with Buddhabelly, the Claudia vibes are strong), will rebel against them at some point and start killing women, thus becoming Jack The Ripper (many theories out there on ol' Jack but I've never heard one that suggested he was actually female, so I think that would be an interesting twist).

The Ethan storyline is dragging a bit for me, TBH.  But I dislike the character of Hecate Poole and the actress who plays her, so I might be checking out because of that.

On a shallow note: Dr. Sweet/Dracula is tall, dark and HOT, in my opinon. :P

[teddysmom]

I thought vampires couldn't go outside in daylight.  I realize Dr. Sweet/Dracula is an uber vampire but what about the minions?

Dr. Sweet is fantastic, he's so delightful and charming, and almost shy so that a woman would fall for him quite easily without realizing what was up. 

[Epeolatrix]

Vampires could go outside in daylight until 1922, when Nosferatu ruined it for all of them. Luckily, our show takes place in 1892. :-)

[kieyra]

15 hours ago, Glade said:

I'm so glad to see John Claire back!  His scenes totally made this episode for me.  I also loved it when he saw Vanessa unexpectedly.  I kept wishing he would knock on the door and meet his old family, though I know it won't be that easy.  It looked like he stole a money-pouch, not a watch.  The final reveal of what he did and who he knew in his previous life was amazing. 

I also wondered who cleans Dorian's house, though I ff through all Lily scenes because I couldn't care less.  Today in America 50% of the trafficked children are boys, I'm sure it was the same in Victorian England, so I think it's sad that politically, both then and now, they are ignored.  It seems neither Lily nor Dorian care to remember Angelique either. It's not clear yet what Dorian's motivation is for supporting Lily's crusade but then again I don't think she's that earnest or free of hypocrisy herself.

Respectfully, but how can you know what's going on with Lily and Dorian and their crusade if you FF through all scenes with Lily? 

[hypnotoad]

I love this show, but that bloody sex scene was hilariously bad. I'm not a fan of Dorian (the only time he was interesting was way back with Vanessa and then Ethan) and Lily bores me too. Lily because I don't like the actress and Dorian because the writers don't really seem to know what to do with him. I too wonder who gets to clean up that mess, but more importantly how did they clean themselves up? I mean it certainly isn't as easy as climbing into a shower like today!

I really don't like watching the witch running around with Ethan, but I am interested in where this is going. Hopefully back to England because I don't enjoy the Scoobies apart! Plus, let's face it Vanessa - yet again - needs them!

[rozen]

12 hours ago, BuddhaBelly said:

Ugh! I need to know more about how the Lupus Dei plays into this whole puzzle. Why does Hecate think she can rule darkness by Ethan's side? What about Dracula and Lucifer in this whole thing? Isn't Lucifer her Master?

I'm not the biggest fan of Victor and watching him be a smug, arrogant little bitch toward Henry made me want to slap him. It was hateful for no reason, especially to someone who came to help you with your dumb plan. However, Henry is borderline unhinged in his quest to master duality. I'm sure it's totally pushed by the terrible treatment he experience in London and he would have not had any relief in Indian being half-caste.

The scrolls they were deciphering last season talk about Amunet and Lupus Dei as being a unit thwarting them through the ages. Maybe Hecate is wondering if this prophecy can break both ways, the brothers have been obsessed with obtaining Amunet so they can rule the darkness, but maybe seducing the Hound of God can have a similar effect? And if Ethan ever truly chose her, Vanessa would probably give her a chance, and Hecate would be closer to the Mother of Evil than anyone else has lately.

I hate to say it, but I kind of agree with her chastising Ethan for being horrified at her swift administration of death. Ethan has been ineffectively restraining himself for years, and has been willing to sulk and brood over the consequences, but not do what was necessary to truly protect everyone around him. He was willing to put hundreds of people at risk on a monthly basis to keep his freedom, so yes, he can stuff his tears where the sun don't shine. Sparing two people when the sun's up and he's not particularly desperate means jack shit. Of course the solution to this is to probably to go throw himself in a river, not keep gallivanting with a gleeful murderess, but he's never excelled at smart decision making. 

Ugh, I can already see where Victor and Henry are going. Victor has his stupid smugpants back on, and is going to design an experiment to make a 100% angel, Henry will try it, and it will backfire (as with everything Victor does), leaving Henry stuck as Hyde full time.

Seriously, Vanessa should pull the witchy scorpion trick on every person she thinks about trusting. Less heartbreak, more awareness than a malevolent undead force of evil is trying to seduce her. That peon was totally trying to warn her as best he could, I wonder who sent him? He paid for it in spades, jeez.

Nothing good is going to come from John Clare being Vanessa's orderly, is there? I hope, whatever happens, they figure out a way to forgive each other because they are the most adorabs friends on the show. 

I bet Madam Bathory and Hecate started like how Lily and her little whelp are now. I smell a fight for supremacy coming, and Dorian's bored enough that he'll probably indulge it because honestly how many bloodbath orgies does it take for him to be over it? Not many, I'm guessing.

Edited May 17, 2016 by rozen

[ganesh]

13 hours ago, withanaich said:

Although I am confused how he got that job at the museum.

Dracula is known for being charismatic, so maybe he just charmed his way into the job.

They're taking a long time getting around to Dorian and his women's plot. He's my favorite out of the literary characters, but he's kind of just hanging around. 

I'm a team oriented person, so I'm looking for more of them to get together and start wrecking it. I'd like Malcolm to catch up with Ethan next time. 

I certainly liked the reveal at the end though. 

I also recall that Vanessa "has to choose evil willingly". I think Mister Lyles read it to everyone, but I don't recall clearly. 

[AuntieMame]

So glad I wasn't the only one wondering if Dorian has trouble keeping staff. This isn't the first time he and Lily have covered the place in blood. I read a book once about the Victorian ho e and the chapters about what laundry involved were hair raising. And yes, Dorian and Lily and their plan for world domination via an immortal army are way more boring than my description would suggest. Is

Of far more interest is the transformation of Hecate into someone with moral ambivalence by giving her loyalty to Ethan, who I still think of as a moral person. Hecate stresses the Wolf if God thing and Ethan's Apache father still hopes he's an instrument of good. Hecate's clothes were fabulous and she is cute as a button. So I'd Justine, I just hate the storyline she's been saddled with. 

I just assumed that Mina was the wife Dr. Sweet referred to. It doesn't negate Barker. Dracula stole Mina from Harker to make Mina his wife. I thought Vanessa took the place of Lucy and that this was their entrance into the original material and their way of telling a new story or secret history.

Back to Dorian, maybe he's boring because some of the source material was boring. What did Dorian have to do except be young and beautiful? It's only so interesting.

[ganesh]

That's probably why the book was so short. I do think having Dorian get bored is an important point and having him devoid of morality fits the show well enough. Lily interests him because she's most like him in a way, and I think he's more amused about what she wants to do. Also, he gets a threesome out of it. 

The problem is that their story is so separate from everyone else's. I really like the idea that they could be creating a reverse Jack the Ripper. But it's still very separate from everyone else. I was really hoping that somehow Vanessa/Amunet would have been part of the portrait to have more of a tie. 

[LittleIggy]

2 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I love this show, but that bloody sex scene was hilariously bad. I'm not a fan of Dorian (the only time he was interesting was way back with Vanessa and then Ethan) and Lily bores me too. Lily because I don't like the actress and Dorian because the writers don't really seem to know what to do with him. I too wonder who gets to clean up that mess, but more importantly how did they clean themselves up? I mean it certainly isn't as easy as climbing into a shower like today!

 

ITA. I don't like Billie Piper either and Dorian is on my shit list since he killed Angelique. The bloody threeway was risable, and I just don't get the army of pissed of prostitutes. What is supernatural about that. BTW, Lily isn't immortal. Chopping off her head would do the trick.

I've been waiting for Renfield to eat a fly!

[Glade]

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

Respectfully, but how can you know what's going on with Lily and Dorian and their crusade if you FF through all scenes with Lily? 

It's more like scrolling through when I'm sick of the scene, which means I still get the gist of it, I just don't savour every word that comes out of BP's mouth. 

 

Regarding Dorian, Oscar Wilde's prose sure as hell wasn't boring!  But without his backstory and without characters like Basil Halward or Lord Henry Wotton, there isn't enough for Dorian to do.

[qtpye]

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I also wondered who cleans Dorian's house, though I ff through all Lily scenes because I couldn't care less.  Today in America 50% of the trafficked children are boys, I'm sure it was the same in Victorian England, so I think it's sad that politically, both then and now, they are ignored.  It seems neither Lily nor Dorian care to remember Angelique either. It's not clear yet what Dorian's motivation is for supporting Lily's crusade but then again I don't think she's that earnest or free of hypocrisy herself.

Does Lily hate everybody of the male gender or just those Johns that hire women and children for sex?  I think she is aware that children of both genders are the most vulnerable to sexual assault and abuse.  She seems to like Dorian and Ethan.  She has no malice for Victor, but will not become his obedient angel (which is fair).

However, the story line is tedious and I am not a fan of the actress, so she does seeming to be giving her all to the role.  I also think Victor is an idiot for thinking he can "fix" her.  I mean Jon Claire was smart enough to have one conversation with Lily and be like "Ah, hell no!".

Also, it annoys me that Lily is a crusader for the sexually abused and the first thing she does have a bloody (literally) three way with the waif and Dorian.  I think the waif is supposed to be a very young girl (though I am sure the actress is over 18).  It felt like she was taking advantage of this child, who literally has no choice but to submit.  I wonder if Lily is aware of her hypocrisy?

Edited to add: There is an excellent book on the sexual exploitation of young boys called the Alienist, though it is set in late 19th century New York, not Victorian London.  I have always said that sexual assault is a gender neutral problem.  I have always thought that rape would never be taken seriously as a crime until we are aware that men and boys can also be victims.  Many societies do not take rape of females to be all that important, but hate the idea of the male gender being victimized in the same manner.

Edited May 17, 2016 by qtpye

[AuntieMame]

The hypocrisy of Lily's actions struck me too. I thought Lily and Dorian were promising some sort of immortality via murder with that talk of pledges and not going back. 

[attica]

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Hecate's little cross body bag out in the desert is adorable! Did they stop at a Coach store on the way to steal horses?

I know! I noticed it last week and was pleased to see it again. But no, show, that kind of bag was not a thing back then. Women didn't carry cross-body bags, but reticules and handbags nearly exclusively. Longer-strapped bags were the province of laborers (i.e. men). She might have gotten a rucksack, or perhaps an infant sling, but not the fetching white leather thing she's sporting.

Always happy to see Sean Gilder (the marshal Ostrow), who will forever be Horatio Hornblower's faithful deckhand Styles to me. 

Why doesn't anybody ever comment on John Clare's white skin and black lips? Why won't he get a haircut? That said, Rory Kinnear can bring. it.

[diebartdie]

On 5/16/2016 at 3:41 AM, Glade said:

Lily's crusade

I was going to do a multi-quote but we'd be here all day if I did that so......ok, let's assume Lily and Dorian suddenly remember the boys sold into sexual slavery and they decide to add them to the army.....and they remember the transgender people sold into sexual slavery and add them too.....well here's the thing, unless I've completely misread the story so far, Lily and Dorian are meant to be seen as bad guys. Not the Big Bad of Lucifer or Dracula of course but still, bad guys with evil intent. Now I dont believe in vigilante "justice" so the idea of Lily and Dorian's army of freed prostitutes going out and slaying all the nasty pimps, madames, and johns out there doesnt give me a happy feeling, the idea of people who would champion the cause of people who have been trafficked being made into the bad guys just pisses me off. Add to that the fact that one of the last johns to buy Brona was Dorian (a man not known for his kindness, gentleness and compassion; a man who conceivably sat through at least one session of "torture the prostitute to death for our amusement"; a man who killed a transgender woman after repeatedly putting her at risk) and I just find that storyline impossible to square.

[withanaich]

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Also, it annoys me that Lily is a crusader for the sexually abused and the first thing she does have a bloody (literally) three way with the waif and Dorian.  I think the waif is supposed to be a very young girl (though I am sure the actress is over 18).  It felt like she was taking advantage of this child, who literally has no choice but to submit.  I wonder if Lily is aware of her hypocrisy?

My husband noticed that as well. So they claim to be saving her from a nasty, brutish, short life ... but they're also using her for sex. She literally got one night to herself in a clean bed before they put a knife in her hand and got naked with her. Now one could argue that they gave her the choice to join their little crusade, whereas she had no agency in her past life, but their actions are still pretty fucked up. Is she even 18 (the character, I mean)? I guess we're supposed to see them as the bad guys, though, so it doesn't really bother me that much -- in terms of characterization -- that they're full of shit. I think Lily is telling herself she's a crusader for the sexually abused, but in reality she's using Justine (and, one could argue, dumb dull Dorian as well) as much as those johns did.

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, withanaich said:

Now one could argue that they gave her the choice to join their little crusade, whereas she had no agency in her past life, but their actions are still pretty fucked up. Is she even 18 (the character, I mean)? I guess we're supposed to see them as the bad guys, though, so it doesn't really bother me that much -- in terms of characterization -- that they're full of shit. I think Lily is telling herself she's a crusader for the sexually abused, but in reality she's using Justine (and, one could argue, dumb dull Dorian as well) as much as those johns did.

The truth of the matter is that she has no choice.  She either does what Lily and Dorian says or she is out on the streets again, prey to people even worse.  This was a person sold to be abused and murdered for the pleasure of others.  There is no one to take care of her or protect her on the streets, where here she gets to live in a mansion and hang out with crazy people, who probably do not want to kill her.

She is still powerless and I do not think Lily realizes (or cares) that she is just using this girl for her own agenda.

[LittleIggy]

1 hour ago, attica said:

Why doesn't anybody ever comment on John Clare's white skin and black lips? 

Seriously! I had to laugh when the guy on the stagecoach was just chatting with John instead of giving him a side look and moving further away. We're goths that common back then? ;-)

[WaltersHair]

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Why doesn't anybody ever comment on John Clare's white skin and black lips? Why won't he get a haircut?

Yes! Proteus and Lily look normal and then here's this dude who is literally white as a sheet. Why does he look so bad compared to the others?

[BuddhaBelly]

I think the show was trying to differentiate and show that Victor's technique improved over time. Also, to make him the "monster"

[attica]

Of course that's right, BuddahBelly, but if he's a monster, citizenry should be terrified! Or at least mildly weirded out.

[Epeolatrix]

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Proteus and Lily look normal and then here's this dude who is literally white as a sheet. Why does he look so bad compared to the others?

Because he had been dead longer when he was made? And I think people ignore his pallor by assuming he has an occupation that keeps him out of the light, and his lips probably don't seem so dark in person. I've been looking at different photos and screencaps, and when there is good lighting, his lips are just darker due to the contrast with his skin, but not unnaturally so. No excuses for that hair, though.

[raven]

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

She is still powerless and I do not think Lily realizes (or cares) that she is just using this girl for her own agenda.

For sure.  Plus it's nice to have an acolyte.  Since Lily thinks the suffragettes are going about it all wrong, is her plan to have her army kill everyone?  Lily may not be thinking of much more than chaos for its own sake, though again I don't know quite what that means. I'm all for taking down the rapists, slavers and murderers but what is the plan?

 She wouldn't be able to do all of this without Dorian, does she plan on trying to get rid of him at some point too, even though she knows he can't be killed? Is she holding a grudge about he treated her as Brona but hiding it because she needs his money? 

Maybe she will find the painting and try to destroy it. Will she find out that he murdered Angelique?   I actually like BP in this role and she at least is interesting, unlike Dorian on his own. 

I also wonder about male prostitutes.  Lily charged Justine with finding others so there may well be some in that group. 

10 hours ago, attica said:

Why doesn't anybody ever comment on John Clare's white skin and black lips?

I had to laugh at this because last season everyone who saw him was all "you're ugly!!" and this season no one bats an eye at his appearance.

Another episode with no Mr. Lyle!  Damn it.  I would love to see him out west.

Edited May 18, 2016 by raven

[fuzzysneakers]

There have been a few mentions that Justine is reminiscent of Claudia from Interview with the Vampire, but I think her character is supposed to be the Justine, from the book written by the Marquis De Sade. Hence the S&M style intro to her character. Or maybe I'm over thinking it.

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, raven said:

Another episode with no Mr. Lyle!  Damn it.  I would love to see him out west.

Oh, no. Mr. Lyle is far too refined for the American West.

[sjohnson]

In real life, Oscar Wilde toured the American West. There was an amusing (if preposterous) imagination of a scene from the tour in the Stephen Fry movie.

[BuddhaBelly]

14 hours ago, fuzzysneakers said:

There have been a few mentions that Justine is reminiscent of Claudia from Interview with the Vampire, but I think her character is supposed to be the Justine, from the book written by the Marquis De Sade. Hence the S&M style intro to her character. Or maybe I'm over thinking it.

I don't think she's suppose to be Claudia but the way the actress is playing Justine reminds me a lot of her. The way she sits very still but you get a sense of something very dangerous being coiled to strike.

[darkestboy]

I am really enjoying this season so far. The reveals are coming in nicely.

Interesting that Vanessa and John Claire/Caliban have a past. I didn't expect that one at all and yet it kind of makes sense.

Vanessa's whole memory place thing with Seward is better than having her locked up again.

Sweet was getting so close to Vanessa, only for his minion to botch things up for him.

Ethan and Hecate are a strange pairing. How much long before Malcolm and Kaetenay meet up with them?

We're getting some tiny glimmers of Jekyll's Hyde self there, Victor saw that too.

Loving the Lily, Dorian and Justine storyline as well, 8/10

[withanaich]

15 hours ago, raven said:

I had to laugh at this because last season everyone who saw him was all "you're ugly!!" and this season no one bats an eye at his appearance.

This is driving me nuts. He used to walk around with his collar over his face and skulk in the shadows, and everyone shrieked and freaked out when they saw him ... and now he's just strolling around town, catching rides and being offered rooms for rent. Maybe everyone is cool because it doesn't look like he's undead, it looks like he's wearing cheap makeup. They really need to dial it back a bit. I can deal with the hair and the pallor, but my god, it literally looks like he's wearing dollar store lipstick and eyeshadow applied by a five year old. It's distracting, and yes, laughable.

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Ethan and Hecate are a strange pairing. How much long before Malcolm and Kaetenay meet up with them?

Shouldn't be long now. Malcolm and Kaetenay stumbled across the couple Hecate killed, and no coyotes had gotten to them yet, so they can't be that far behind Ethan and Hecate. That should be an interesting scene. I do keep wondering when someone is going to realize that Vanessa is all alone in London with evil on the prowl. They can't think she's safe just because Evelyn is dead.

[sjohnson]

They know she's safe because she's got supernatural powers, strong enough to have kicked Lucifer's ass. She doesn't need them. Even Hecate Poole is strong enough to tame the Wolfman, so what has Vanessa Ives have to fear? Fundamentally, she's in fake jeopardy for plot's sake. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by sjohnson

[qtpye]

I guess the only thing to fear if she falls in love with Dracula and gives into the relationship.  Hey, what if Drac falls for her and finds his way back to God?  It feels like there is a reason they are showing him to be so darn adorkable.

[maczero]

8 hours ago, sjohnson said:

They know she's safe because she's got supernatural powers, strong enough to have kicked Lucifer's ass. She doesn't need them. Even Hecate Poole is strong enough to tame the Wolfman, so what has Vanessa Ives have to fear? Fundamentally, she's in fake jeopardy for plot's sake. 

What are Vanessa's powers exactly?

[Dobian]

I think it's fair to say that Dorian and Lily are having the most fun of anyone on the show right now.  I like Malcolm and Kaetenay together.  They make a good "buddy cop"  pair.  I love John Clare and he's always been one of my favorite characters.  I do agree that it's strange he goes around now not covering up and no one is reacting.  Maybe Londoners have started to become desensitized to freakish-looking people?

[withanaich]

20 hours ago, sjohnson said:

 

They know she's safe because she's got supernatural powers, strong enough to have kicked Lucifer's ass. She doesn't need them. Even Hecate Poole is strong enough to tame the Wolfman, so what has Vanessa Ives have to fear? Fundamentally, she's in fake jeopardy for plot's sake. 

 

I don't know if I'd agree. The thing that makes Vanessa powerful -- her affinity for the supernatural -- could also be seen as her greatest weakness. It's one of the things that attracts evil to her in the first place. And one of the points the show keeps driving home is that the gang is more powerful as a team. When those witches broke in the house, everyone went on the attack. It's not like Vanessa has super strength or super mind control powers. That house is huge, and what is she really going to do if some Big Bad's minions break in there again? I mean, we know they're not, because we know that right now the only thing she really has to fear is Dracula (and he seems to be going for more of a soft sell), but Ethan and Malcom don't know that.

[sjohnson]

22 hours ago, sjohnson said:

They know she's safe because she's got supernatural powers, strong enough to have kicked Lucifer's ass. She doesn't need them. Even Hecate Poole is strong enough to tame the Wolfman, so what has Vanessa Ives have to fear. Fundamentally, she's in fake jeopardy for plot's sake. 

The end of the world comes from Amunet/Vanessa marrying one of the brothers, not from her death. She's not in physical danger. If anything it's the world that's in danger from her. No doubt this explains why she's a wreck.

[ganesh]

Is the house still protected from invasion? Didn't they ward it?