S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[Maximum Taco]

12 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Didn't we lose Hot Pie?  I thought he was murdered at the inn he was so happy to be working at?  (In book world.  Not sure the show has had time to keep up with Hot Pie unfortunately.)

How dare you even suggest such a terrible world, without Hot Pie. 

Everyone would be giving up on the gravy and making inferior kidney pies.

This show/book is cruel, but not that cruel. Never that cruel!

[MissLucas]

12 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Sorry for the rant, but his backstory really irritated me.  If he chose to give up his gods-given talent as a cobbler to live the life of an Ascetic, fine, his choice.  Even if he wants to preach that way of life and persuade others to follow, fine.  He's trying to compel everyone to live that way, and it's a huge step backwards.

Yeah, had he should have chosen to pull a St. Francis instead of a Savonarola.

[nksarmi]

I just posted this in the speculation thread but if we really want to debate how "true" the High Sparrow is - let's just admit that he damn well knows Tommen is the product of Cersei and Jamie's incest. He left Tommen on the throne because the boy can be manipulated and controlled. It's not complete coincidence that the people the HS is targeting are people who had influence over Tommen. He'd probably love to imprison Jamie too, but he can't make a claim against Jamie at this time that isn't related to Tommen being his son and therefore not the rightful ruler of the realm.

If the HS had been a truly righteous man he would have gone after Cersei and Jamie and let a trial by the seven decide if Tommen was true born to rule. But is he going to risk that when the rightful ruler (Stannis) worships a different god? Or would he back a Targ queen across the ocean who sure as hell isn't going to share power with him?

No I don't think the High Sparrow is secretly committing tons of sins or anything, but I do think he's a player in this game and all of this is about his grab for power as opposed to the sins of the people he is punishing.

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, mac123x said:

He's selling off the assets of the church to buy food to give to the poor (in the books at least, though we've seen scant evidence of that on the show).  What happens when he runs out of things to sell?  Where does he get the money to continue feeding the poor after he's destroyed the nobility and wrecked the economy?  As crappy as feudalism is, it's still a better system than the hunter-gatherer, subsistence farmer economy that he'll reduce Westeros to.

Why would his reformation wreck the economy or the food supply?  The peasants are still farming.  Presumably in his ideal Westeros they wouldn't be doing it for the nobles, and wouldn't have to worry about Tywin Lannister sending his rape, pillage and plunder squads to set everything to the torch, as the Lannisters did in the Riverlands.

[nksarmi]

By the way - on the show - if we ignore the fact that the crown probably should go to a Targ - with Stannis and Shirleen dead and Renly having no children and Robert having only bastards......who is the heir to the throne?

[Constantinople]

I don't have a problem with Dany's decision to commit mass khalicide, even before they said they would rape her to death.

The best outcome for her was imprisonment for life in the Dosh Khaleen, and it's not as if she asked to marry Drogo knowing full well that would be her fate once he died.  She was forced to marry him against her will.

Moreover, aside from being a bunch of mass murdering rapists, it's not as if Dany overthrew the duly elected democratic representatives of the Dothraki people.  Following Dothraki tradition, they murdered their way to the top and by killing them, Dany beat them at their own game.  To paraphrase Cersei, "When you play the Game of Khals, you win or you die"

And I really don't care if Dany was only supposed to be fireproof once.  If the seasons can last a decade or longer, if Jon Snow can return from the dead and Beric Dondarrion can return from the dead multiple times, and if giant fire breathing dragons, White Walkers, Children of the Forest and Giants can exist, then I don't have a problem with Dany being fireproof more than once.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Constantinople

[DigitalCount]

So trial by combat, with fire as her champion? 

[Tikichick]

59 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

By the way - on the show - if we ignore the fact that the crown probably should go to a Targ - with Stannis and Shirleen dead and Renly having no children and Robert having only bastards......who is the heir to the throne?

Interesting question.  I do think someone in particular has been doing that math -- and is prepared to stand up and answer it before very long.  I'll put the rest in speculation thread. 

[benteen]

30 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

So trial by combat, with fire as her champion? 

Wow.  That would actually be a legit parallel to her father, except the Dothraki deserved what they got with that one.

I noticed when Daario is kneeling at the end, his lips are moving like he's praying.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Why would his reformation wreck the economy or the food supply?  The peasants are still farming.  Presumably in his ideal Westeros they wouldn't be doing it for the nobles, and wouldn't have to worry about Tywin Lannister sending his rape, pillage and plunder squads to set everything to the torch, as the Lannisters did in the Riverlands.

He's not just attacking the nobles.  His band of thugs attacked merchants.  He vilified Marge for wearing "a year's worth of labor on her back", never mind the positive effect Marge buying an expensive dress has on the economy (seemstress makes a living, traders who get the raw materials for the seemstress to use make a living, people who produce the raw materials make a living, etc.).  He looks down on his past-self for producing luxury goods, In his world view, no one should be producing or consuming anything above what they need for sustenance.  I find that completely repellant.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

Show Hot Pie was last seen by Brienne and Pod at the Inn of the Crossroads, seemingly living a decent life as a cook.  In the book, that inn was essentially destroyed by the multiple occupiers.  Book Hot Pie was at a different inn (Inn of the Kneeling King or something like that) so he's probably still alive.

I hope you're right.  I thought I remembered in the book a reveal where a character I cannot recall ended up stopping at the ruined inn in the aftermath and it revealed to the reader that Hot Pie had met his end where he finally found his dream, despite the character not knowing Hot Pie prior.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

We saw one scene of that, prior to his elevation to High Septon.  Afterwards, we've only seen scenes of his armed goons destroying brothels, attacking merchants, breaking wine casks (a serious problem since medieval sanitation was horrible and drinking alcoholic beverages was much safer than drinking water).

 

He's selling off the assets of the church to buy food to give to the poor (in the books at least, though we've seen scant evidence of that on the show).  What happens when he runs out of things to sell?  Where does he get the money to continue feeding the poor after he's destroyed the nobility and wrecked the economy?  As crappy as feudalism is, it's still a better system than the hunter-gatherer, subsistence farmer economy that he'll reduce Westeros to.

What SeanC said. Beating down the aristocrats is NOT going to cause the entire society to forget agriculture and revert to "hunter-gatherer" lifestyles. The aristocrats aren't the ones planting and harvesting - it's the smallfolk, and they'd continue to do so. And they'd probably do it more efficiently if they didn't have to give up all their young men regularly to their lord for use and death as foot soldiers, or have enemy armies burning their crops and killing them off. Granted, the High Sparrow doesn't appreciate how cracking down on prostitution, wine-selling and similar industries can hurt the economy, but he's operating off strictly religious definitions of 'evil' and 'good.' I still think that it's quite credible that he could honestly believe he could make the common people's lives better by cutting the aristocrats down to size, and be trying to do so for what he conceives as The Greater Good. We have a better appreciation of the law of unintended consequences, and know that it's likely to backfire.

As for the High Sparrow's holding of Margaery and Loras - he's no doubt aware that he probably can't squeeze a confession of significant sin out of Margaery, since she didn't actually do much except perjure about Loras' sex life to protect him. But this is enough to hold her, and he's using that as a bargaining chip to try and get her to confess about a bigger sinner - Loras. Now this is an Inquisitor's attitude, and we recognize it as evil, but that doesn't mean he himself necessarily does. IIRC, historians agree that Torquemada was quite sincere in his labor for the Greater Good.

Basically, I'm not arguing that the HS is a Good guy. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But the fact is, that over the course of the last few years the Westerosi's rulers have ALL been Bad Guys, and compared to other Bad Guys, this one is pretty mild and probably looks better to the populace. He uses sleep deprivation and psychological torture? Look at Qyburn's hobbies. He's decrying wars, not decreeing them, unlike every other aristocrat. I can see why the commoners would prefer him over their lords, even though I know it won't end well.

Edited May 17, 2016 by screamin

[Maximum Taco]

15 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I hope you're right.  I thought I remembered in the book a reveal where a character I cannot recall ended up stopping at the ruined inn in the aftermath and it revealed to the reader that Hot Pie had met his end where he finally found his dream, despite the character not knowing Hot Pie prior.

Nope, you're misremembering. Misremembering in a very poetic way, but misremembering nonetheless.

The Inn of the Kneeling Man, where book Hot Pie decides to stay, is never mentioned again, after Arya and the BwoB leaves for Riverrun, leaving Hot Pie behind to bake.

[Tikichick]

Just now, Maximum Taco said:

Nope, you're misremembering. Misremembering in a very poetic way, but misremembering nonetheless.

The Inn of the Kneeling Man, where book Hot Pie decides to stay, is never mentioned again, after Arya and the BwoB leaves for Riverrun, leaving Hot Pie behind to bake.

Silly, but it makes me happy.  We don't know Hot Pie extremely well, but this story has a way of making you cling to those you feel have sincere goodness inside, goodness that they share just because, with no calculation or strategy.

[SeanC]

31 minutes ago, mac123x said:

He's not just attacking the nobles.  His band of thugs attacked merchants.  He vilified Marge for wearing "a year's worth of labor on her back", never mind the positive effect Marge buying an expensive dress has on the economy (seemstress makes a living, traders who get the raw materials for the seemstress to use make a living, people who produce the raw materials make a living, etc.).  He looks down on his past-self for producing luxury goods, In his world view, no one should be producing or consuming anything above what they need for sustenance.  I find that completely repellant.

I wouldn't especially care to live under the High Sparrow's ideal state, myself, but given the choice between that and Cersei's, I'd be quite open to considering it.

Virtually all the people in Westeros already live in subsistence agriculture conditions right now anyway, and have to deal with all the nobles regularly starting wars that get them killed.  Cracking down on the business of fancy shoes for the super-rich is pretty mild by comparison.  Cersei is personally responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, potentially more depending on what manner of famine, plague, etc. resulted from the War of the Five Kings.  Anybody outside of her immediate family, to her, are just chattels to be used as she pleases.  And she was, at the time the High Sparrow's movement got started, basically running the government.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SeanC

[OakGoblinFly]

On 5/16/2016 at 3:05 AM, J----av said:

 

  I am not saying they hated each other, but they didn't like each other. Sansa always saw him as beneath her. I also never said Jon wouldn't help her. He would. Its just underwhelming (to me) because Sansa and Jon had no real relationship or interaction. Their "reunion" (and in the books and the show they never shared i scene together) was very low on the list of possible Stark reunions. Well behind Jon/Arya, Sansa/Arya, Jon/Bran, Bran/Rickon or maybe Bran/Arya as far as emotional impact

Yes, a Bran or Arya reunion would have packed an emotional punch because we’d expect it to be a happy/joyful reunion based on their past relationship with Jon.  For me, what made the Sansa-Jon reunion scene so powerful (and beautifully played by Sophie Turner and Kit Harrington) was the fact that they weren't close growing up; that despite their differences and indifference toward each other while growing up, they were able to look past it and enjoy the family bond.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 8:45 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Say, isn't Jorah supposed to be some awesome fighter?  He got his ass kicked there.

He's slowly dying from greyscale.  I think he's probably weakening.

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 8:55 AM, Alapaki said:

3) I agree with the sentiment upthread that returning the Iron Islands (especially under the impression that Balon was still alive) was really not in character for Theon.  He can't have any realistic expectation of being accepted (even Prodigal Son style) by Balon and the Iron Islanders.  At this point, Theon seems more motivated by guilt, shame and the need for redemption.  The only place he could realistically get that would be in the North, either as part of the NW, or fighting alongside whomever bands together to try to retake Winterfell.

Theon's only been Theon again for a short while.  I think his sole purpose was to save Sansa, and he planned on dying at that point.  Once Sansa had help - and much stronger help than him - perhaps his mind then turned to Yara and their last meeting.  Maybe saving Sansa boosted his self-worth enough that he felt the need to go talk to his sister and perhaps thank her for attempting to rescue him.  And maybe even apologize for fighting her rescue.  Anyway, I hope he will end up rallying her troops to fight on the Stark's side.  That's the reason I'm suddenly interested in the Iron Islands.

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 9:06 AM, Alapaki said:

As long as the High Sparrow holds Margery, I think Olenna's interests are aligned with Cersei's expressed-interests.  IIRC, the book left off with Mace and his Tyrell army trying to capture Storm's End, but presumably on the way back upon hearing that Margery had been imprisoned.  

Is Mace different in the books?  TV Mace is such a buffoon the only thing I see him leading is a three ring circus, or the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.  Olenna is so dismissive of, and disgusted by, him that I'm surprised she'd put Margaery's life in his hands.  She's also dismissive of Loras.  I assumed it was because he's a pillow biter (as she calls him), but now I wonder if she just dislikes men.  She doesn't have much good to say about her late husband, either.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 9:27 AM, Alapaki said:

I agree that whenever it comes to the Dragons, the budget is driving the narrative.

Although, isn't it completely a D&D move to decide "Okay, we'll give Dany her agency.  But we have to get another shot of those tits!", thinking they'd made titty-ade out of lemons?

Direwolves, too.  Would it have killed them to show a Ghost/Sansa reunion?  Even just Ghost under the dinner table while Sansa scratched his head.

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Is Mace different in the books?  

Mace in the books is basically competent, if nothing special, and egotistical.  He's very different from the show's version, particularly in that he has a good sense of how important his position makes him and the various Lannisters have to be careful to be publicly nice and keep him happy.  The open condescension and dismissiveness shown by Tywin, etc. in the show is completely foreign to the books.

TV!Mace seems to be adapted more from Olenna's initial description of him on meeting Sansa (which is from the books) than from his actual appearances.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

We saw one scene of that, prior to his elevation to High Septon.  Afterwards, we've only seen scenes of his armed goons destroying brothels, attacking merchants, breaking wine casks (a serious problem since medieval sanitation was horrible and drinking alcoholic beverages was much safer than drinking water). 

He's selling off the assets of the church to buy food to give to the poor (in the books at least, though we've seen scant evidence of that on the show).  What happens when he runs out of things to sell?  Where does he get the money to continue feeding the poor after he's destroyed the nobility and wrecked the economy?  As crappy as feudalism is, it's still a better system than the hunter-gatherer, subsistence farmer economy that he'll reduce Westeros to.

Sorry for the rant, but his backstory really irritated me.  If he chose to give up his gods-given talent as a cobbler to live the life of an Ascetic, fine, his choice.  Even if he wants to preach that way of life and persuade others to follow, fine.  He's trying to compel everyone to live that way, and it's a huge step backwards.

Thank you for this. I don't see how his methods are going to make things better for the common people at all and in see every indication that he's only making life miserable for everyone. The show has been emphasizing the bad that comes with this guy.

I will say that I appreciate that they've toned down the High Sparrow's misogyny in comparison to the books. 

I agree too with your point about it being one thing for him to go down this fanatical and self righteous path, but he thinks that everyone should be a fanatic like him.

[Maximum Taco]

28 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Is Mace different in the books?  TV Mace is such a buffoon the only thing I see him leading is a three ring circus, or the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.  Olenna is so dismissive of, and disgusted by, him that I'm surprised she'd put Margaery's life in his hands.  She's also dismissive of Loras.  I assumed it was because he's a pillow biter (as she calls him), but now I wonder if she just dislikes men.  She doesn't have much good to say about her late husband, either.

In the books Olenna sees Mace and Loras as tools.

Mace is competent enough to accomplish the day-to-day ruling of the Reach, to deal with money, to conduct a war. Loras is an accomplished fighter who could probably slay any warrior in the kingdoms in single combat. Both are competent at these jobs, but neither are smart enough to go about the kind of politicking and back stabbing she does.

Mace and Loras have been severely nerfed in the show to the point where Mace is just a buffoon, and Loras somehow goes meekly along with the Faith Militant despite having his own armed guards and being armed when they come to arrest him.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Thank you for this. I don't see how his methods are going to make things better for the common people at all and in see every indication that he's only making life miserable for everyone. 

The show's portrayal of the Sparrow movement has definitely been a lot more cartoonish than the books (the writers clearly don't have much imagination with respect to religion and have missed most of the complexity in the novels' portrayal, as well as in general favouring the Lannisters), but even here the nobles repeatedly state that they believe most of the common people in KL (and elsewhere) will side with the High Sparrow if it comes to open warfare.

[benteen]

8 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

In the books Olenna sees Mace and Loras as tools.

Mace is competent enough to accomplish the day-to-day ruling of the Reach, to deal with money, to conduct a war. Loras is an accomplished fighter who could probably slay any warrior in the kingdoms in single combat. Both are competent at these jobs, but neither are smart enough to go about the kind of politicking and back stabbing she does.

Mace and Loras have been severely nerfed in the show to the point where Mace is just a buffoon, and Loras somehow goes meekly along with the Faith Militant despite having his own armed guards and being armed when they come to arrest him.

Yeah, Mace may be a buffoon in the books but he'd never act like that and you'd never see Olenna dismiss him when she was talking to Tywin like she did during Joffrey's wedding (on the show).  His family might be running things behind the scenes but they at least always let him think he's running the show.

Yes on Loras.  If the Faith Militant would have gone after him, he would have left a trail of their bodies before he was finally taken down.

[FemmyV]

23 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

He defeated Stannis by having more men than him. Numerical superiority is not out of the box thinking.

Forgive me for not elongating on Ramsey's perfect execution of destroying Stannis' supply lines, starting a chain of circumstances that lead to widespread desertion.

[Avaleigh]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The show's portrayal of the Sparrow movement has definitely been a lot more cartoonish than the books (the writers clearly don't have much imagination with respect to religion and have missed most of the complexity in the novels' portrayal, as well as in general favouring the Lannisters), but even here the nobles repeatedly state that they believe most of the common people in KL (and elsewhere) will side with the High Sparrow if it comes to open warfare.

I like that the show High Septon doesn't seem to be a misogynist like his book counterpart obviously is. I like too that the focus isn't on the virginity of Margaery and her cousins. I think the show made good choices here.

[MrWhyt]

5 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Forgive me for not elongating on Ramsey's perfect execution of destroying Stannis' supply lines, starting a chain of circumstances that lead to widespread desertion.

destroying Stannis' supplies wasn't exactly rocket science either.  An army marches on it's stomach, it is known. The claim was that Ramsey defeated Stannis by being a "super-smart villian", except nothing he did in regards to Stannis were extraordinary tactics.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 9:34 AM, Chris24601 said:

So another log to throw on the Jon/Sansa shipper fire is that apparently the fur cloak she's wearing in the fireplace scene is Jon's Winterfell cloak. Given all the symbolism involving cloaks in Westerosi weddings and taking with EVERYTHING else loaded into that scene its a thing that makes you go "Hmmmm."

I didn't notice, but didn't Jon give the cloak to Edd?  So wouldn't it now be Edd's cloak she's wearing?  And wouldn't it be inappropriate for her to be wearing the Lord Commander's cloak?

I'm horrified by the theory that Jon and Sansa end up married - political or not.  That's the kind of thing that flies in thousands of pages in a book over many years, but difficult to portray on TV.  I really don't think the TV storyline is headed that way.  If anything, maybe these little hints (for the book readers looking for it) are the show baiting the waters for a reaction.  They can no longer blame the books for the incestuous storylines, and want a reaction to that type of storyline without committing anything.  But sometimes actors just have really good chemistry, and it doesn't mean it's romantic.  People loved the chemistry between the Hound and Arya, but I doubt people wanted them together romantically.

Personally, I'd prefer Sansa back with Tyrion than with her brother/cousin.  I wonder what the remaining siblings would think of a Jon/Sansa romance.  Maybe the same as me - yuck.  But if we need more incest, Jon and Dany seem more likely.  They never met as children, the Targaryen's preferred marrying close family, and Dany and Jon seem to be prophesied. 

[Ambrosefolly]

20 hours ago, Nanrad said:

 

I am still holding out for Sansrick.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Oscirus]

Something else I forgot to mention. Cersei's idea isn't too bad. If it goes south Kevan and QOT would be responsible. It was brilliant to use their kids/grandkids to get them to do what she wants.

[Alapaki]

Quote

Is Mace different in the books?  TV Mace is such a buffoon the only thing I see him leading is a three ring circus, or the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.  Olenna is so dismissive of, and disgusted by, him that I'm surprised she'd put Margaery's life in his hands.  She's also dismissive of Loras.  I assumed it was because he's a pillow biter (as she calls him), but now I wonder if she just dislikes men.  She doesn't have much good to say about her late husband, either.

Agree with the other responses that we don't see Book Mace acting the way we hear him described by Olenna.  And Olenna seems a bit dismissive of almost everyone for one reason or another.

But regardless of which is correct, when it comes to leading an armed assault on the Sept to rescue Margaery, presumably the Tyrell army has competent "generals" and "lieutenants", so Mace's competence or lack thereof probably wouldn't be a factor.  

Quote

destroying Stannis' supplies wasn't exactly rocket science either.  An army marches on it's stomach, it is known. The claim was that Ramsey defeated Stannis by being a "super-smart villian", except nothing he did in regards to Stannis were extraordinary tactics.

Agreed.  In fact, depriving the enemy of supplies, forcing a siege, and allowing the climate to do the rest is pretty much northern warfare 101.  If anything, mounting the assault on Stannis' severely depleted ranks outside the walls of Winterfell probably cost Ramsey a significant number of casualties he didn't have to suffer in order to achieve the same ultimate goal.

[FemmyV]

27 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

destroying Stannis' supplies wasn't exactly rocket science either.  An army marches on it's stomach, it is known. The claim was that Ramsey defeated Stannis by being a "super-smart villian", except nothing he did in regards to Stannis were extraordinary tactics.

except most armies keep guards out for that sort of thing. If Stannis had them, and they'd been killed on duty, we'd have heard about it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by FemmyV

[Oscirus]

Just now, FemmyV said:

except most armies keep guards out for that sort of thing.

As did Stannis but his guards were worn out at the time due to the tough time they were having with the elements.

[Alapaki]

I've been thinking about the Pink Letter, contrasting it with the Book Pink Letter, and considering the theories and speculation on the author.

I think they may be setting it up for Littlefinger to have been the author.  He wouldn't have first-hand knowledge of Rickon's return.  But then again he didn't have first-hand knowledge of Sansa's escape.  Speaking to Royce he mentioned having spies still in the North.  Presumably they could provide the Rickon information to him.

It's also possible that Littlefinger is working in concert with Smalljon (whose double-dealing I don't think is necessarily ruled out by Osha's death; she would've been seen as worthless collateral damage to both Smalljon and Littlefinger).

The reason I think that the Show Pink Letter makes Ramsey's authorship even more doubtful is that on the show he has Rickon, whom most in the North would recognize as the rightful heir to Winterfell.  Smalljon dropped in Ramsey's lap an invitation to a decade of de facto "legitimate" rule as Rickon's "regent".  

All it would take is a general announcement "celebrating" the return of Ramsey's long-lost brother-in-law, who Ramsey now vows to "protect" with his life, and keep "safe" in Winterfell's "basement suites" until he comes of age.  It doesn't matter if everyone sees through the letter and recognizes that Rickon is a hostage.  The deterrent effect would probably be the same.  In the interim, Winter would have come in full, preventing any warfare anyway and giving Ramsey a chance to consolidate his control.  

I understand why Ramsey wants Sansa and Jon dead to tie up those loose ends once and for all.  But surely there are easier ways to accomplish that than by inviting a full-scale assault on the Wall by an army of Wildlings (whom your own forces haven't been tested against).

[FozzyBear]

I didn't really like the Danny stuff. Mostly I thought it was just dumb. Like that was the whole plan? Just push over some lamps because you don't burn? THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!? Seriously. We could have saved ourselves a bunch of random crone club conversations and Dothraki Cochella scenes. It felt more like they are just trying to get 1 Danny boob shot per episode. No more, no less.

[OakGoblinFly]

53 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't notice, but didn't Jon give the cloak to Edd?  So wouldn't it now be Edd's cloak she's wearing?  And wouldn't it be inappropriate for her to be wearing the Lord Commander's cloak?

The cloak that Jon handed Edd was the Lord Commander cloak that Mormont wore - and was presumably handed down from Lord Commander to Lord Commander.

[MrWhyt]

Quote

except most armies keep guards out for that sort of thing. If Stannis had them, and they'd been killed on duty, we'd have heard about it.

Stannis did set guards, he orders their questioning and execution the morning after. And even he didn't have guards, that doesn't make Ramsey a "super-smart villain" it makes Stannis an idiot.

[Tikichick]

50 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Something else I forgot to mention. Cersei's idea isn't too bad. If it goes south Kevan and QOT would be responsible. It was brilliant to use their kids/grandkids to get them to do what she wants.

Or have the Queen of Thrones and Kevan done the math and realize all the cost and risk is on their end, most of which result in positives on Cersei's tally?  Perhaps they have different ideas of "following" Cersei's strategy.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

I am still holding out for Sansrick.

Nope, it's Sandry for-evah!

Edited May 17, 2016 by sacrebleu

[Tikichick]

A couple stray comments without bothering to quote anyone in particular.

Jon's Winterfell cloak and the Lord Commander's cloaks are two different items of clothing.

I don't know how many scenes it took before enough dialogue clued me in about who Mace Tyrell was onscreen.  Such different portrayals that I needed to basically be led by the hand like a 3 year old before I understood who I was seeing.

[Tikichick]

42 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I've been thinking about the Pink Letter, contrasting it with the Book Pink Letter, and considering the theories and speculation on the author.

I think they may be setting it up for Littlefinger to have been the author.  He wouldn't have first-hand knowledge of Rickon's return.  But then again he didn't have first-hand knowledge of Sansa's escape.  Speaking to Royce he mentioned having spies still in the North.  Presumably they could provide the Rickon information to him.

It's also possible that Littlefinger is working in concert with Smalljon (whose double-dealing I don't think is necessarily ruled out by Osha's death; she would've been seen as worthless collateral damage to both Smalljon and Littlefinger).

The reason I think that the Show Pink Letter makes Ramsey's authorship even more doubtful is that on the show he has Rickon, whom most in the North would recognize as the rightful heir to Winterfell.  Smalljon dropped in Ramsey's lap an invitation to a decade of de facto "legitimate" rule as Rickon's "regent".  

All it would take is a general announcement "celebrating" the return of Ramsey's long-lost brother-in-law, who Ramsey now vows to "protect" with his life, and keep "safe" in Winterfell's "basement suites" until he comes of age.  It doesn't matter if everyone sees through the letter and recognizes that Rickon is a hostage.  The deterrent effect would probably be the same.  In the interim, Winter would have come in full, preventing any warfare anyway and giving Ramsey a chance to consolidate his control.  

I understand why Ramsey wants Sansa and Jon dead to tie up those loose ends once and for all.  But surely there are easier ways to accomplish that than by inviting a full-scale assault on the Wall by an army of Wildlings (whom your own forces haven't been tested against).

Lots of good ideas here.  One hitch in the plan in my eyes would be I think Littlefinger has been burned by Ramsey already and would be hesitant to engage him in any way.  I think Littlefinger miscalculated when he married Sansa to him, assuming that his legitimization into official noble lineage, Roose's control and Sansa's strategic value would protect her from any of Ramsey's proclivities. 

[SeanC]

One thing I've been wondering about:  the political status of the North, as far as the major parties are concerned.

Ramsay is now calling himself Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, which would indicate he still considers the Iron Throne his overlord, even though by marrying Sansa the Boltons effectively broke with the Lannisters.  He seems like the type who'd fancy a crown for himself, so should he not be thinking along those lines?

With the Starks the situation is more complicated.  Sansa technically became a princess the second Robb declared himself a king, but for obvious reasons the Lannisters never called her that, so she'd kept referring to herself as Lady Sansa, even after leaving King's Landing.  But if the Starks are going to be reclaiming Winterfell, it seems pretty damn unlikely that they're going to acknowledging King Tommen's authority (granted, Tommen is probably toast in the near future, but they don't know that).  Should they not be proclaiming the absent Bran as the rightful king?  Bran, incidentally, did live under Robb's new regime, and so was going by Prince Bran back when he was still around people who cared about such things.

[benteen]

30 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

A couple stray comments without bothering to quote anyone in particular.

Jon's Winterfell cloak and the Lord Commander's cloaks are two different items of clothing.

I don't know how many scenes it took before enough dialogue clued me in about who Mace Tyrell was onscreen.  Such different portrayals that I needed to basically be led by the hand like a 3 year old before I understood who I was seeing.

Well, in having Jon choose his successor, they did ignore the fact that the Night's Watch elects its own members.  Maybe they're just waiting for a vote to make it official.

[proserpina65]

On ‎05‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 1:58 PM, Advance35 said:

 Unimpressed by Dany as well.  The minute I saw all the Khals assembled, I crossed my fingers that there was knife thrower in the pack that had good aim and could take this "Mother of Dragons" with them into the great beyond but......sigh.  No such luck.  My eyes are going to roll so hard if this chick sits on the Iron Throne.   The Mary Sue of Mary Sue's.  Sigh.

The Dothraki appear to obey the prohibition against weapons in Vaes Dothrak, so wouldn't have happened.

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, benteen said:

Well, in having Jon choose his successor, they did ignore the fact that the Night's Watch elects its own members.  Maybe they're just waiting for a vote to make it official.

I did notice they skipped the election, and then I realized that's probably not something the show has time to spend on at this point so they went with the option of the emotional handoff instead.

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, Mace may be a buffoon in the books but he'd never act like that and you'd never see Olenna dismiss him when she was talking to Tywin like she did during Joffrey's wedding (on the show).  His family might be running things behind the scenes but they at least always let him think he's running the show.

Yes on Loras.  If the Faith Militant would have gone after him, he would have left a trail of their bodies before he was finally taken down.

For what it's worth, one of the S5 DVD commentary tracks mentions that the actor for Mace is trying to give off I Claudius vibes, i.e., playing the dunderhead but actually being competent underneath.  My reaction to that was "umm, sure, let's go with that."  He might be trying to portray Mace as a hidden genius, but the scripting and editing are doing a good job of concealing it.

19 minutes ago, benteen said:

Well, in having Jon choose his successor, they did ignore the fact that the Night's Watch elects its own members.  Maybe they're just waiting for a vote to make it official.

When Jon handed the cloak over, he told Edd to wear it, burn it, whatever, he didn't care.  I don't think he was choosing Edd as his successor per se.  Though since Edd is the only non-extra left in the Nights Watch, he'll probably get it.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

I wouldn't especially care to live under the High Sparrow's ideal state, myself, but given the choice between that and Cersei's, I'd be quite open to considering it.

Virtually all the people in Westeros already live in subsistence agriculture conditions right now anyway, and have to deal with all the nobles regularly starting wars that get them killed.  Cracking down on the business of fancy shoes for the super-rich is pretty mild by comparison.  Cersei is personally responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, potentially more depending on what manner of famine, plague, etc. resulted from the War of the Five Kings.  Anybody outside of her immediate family, to her, are just chattels to be used as she pleases.  And she was, at the time the High Sparrow's movement got started, basically running the government.

Cersei is personally responsible for arming the Faith Militant as well. 

The High Sparrows ideal state will never seem attractive to rich or middle class people, but in Westeros, there seems to be a much larger divide between the haves and the have nots.  There are the Noble Houses, with a few "middle class" people around, probably those favored in some way, or lesser nobility with small houses, their vassals, with Littlefinger, when he started, being the smallest and poorest of all of them, with his few stony acres and dozen families with a couple of sheep.  Then there are the majority of people, the poor, desperately poor, used to do their bidding, whether that is to die in various wars so the rich can become richer or the powerful even more powerful, or to grow the food the rich eat, be their servants, make their clothes while their own children wear rags, etc.   Before these rich people wars began, they had barely enough to get by, now?  They have much less than enough to get by.  Their children are not educated, there is no way to rise in rank, other than being especially valiant in war, they are at the mercy of people like Cersei, and Tywin, and Karstarks, and Boltons (on and on) who basically have no mercy. 

So, why not band together and throw the bastards out?  Because they had no leader, and no arms.  A leader appeared, and Cersei armed them.  If they must fight and die in war, why not fight for themselves and their own family, instead of for someone else? 

I agree that the High Septon may have other plans, and that no man is truly holy, but frankly, for these starving and abused masses?  What he's offering is a chance, hope, food, dignity, and survival, or at least to die for a cause that would help them. 

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

The show's portrayal of the Sparrow movement has definitely been a lot more cartoonish than the books (the writers clearly don't have much imagination with respect to religion and have missed most of the complexity in the novels' portrayal, as well as in general favouring the Lannisters), but even here the nobles repeatedly state that they believe most of the common people in KL (and elsewhere) will side with the High Sparrow if it comes to open warfare.

True.  The show hasn't really shown much of the plight of the common people either, I think we did hear Tywin tell his soldiers to burn all the fields as well as the villages, and we do know that winter is coming. 

1 hour ago, FozzyBear said:

I didn't really like the Danny stuff. Mostly I thought it was just dumb. Like that was the whole plan? Just push over some lamps because you don't burn? THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!? Seriously. We could have saved ourselves a bunch of random crone club conversations and Dothraki Cochella scenes. It felt more like they are just trying to get 1 Danny boob shot per episode. No more, no less.

Wasn't it because she needed all of the Khals in one place at the same time?  When did she have the chance before?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Umbelina
typos

[Alapaki]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

One thing I've been wondering about:  the political status of the North, as far as the major parties are concerned.

Ramsay is now calling himself Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, which would indicate he still considers the Iron Throne his overlord, even though by marrying Sansa the Boltons effectively broke with the Lannisters.  He seems like the type who'd fancy a crown for himself, so should he not be thinking along those lines?

With the Starks the situation is more complicated.  Sansa technically became a princess the second Robb declared himself a king, but for obvious reasons the Lannisters never called her that, so she'd kept referring to herself as Lady Sansa, even after leaving King's Landing.  But if the Starks are going to be reclaiming Winterfell, it seems pretty damn unlikely that they're going to acknowledging King Tommen's authority (granted, Tommen is probably toast in the near future, but they don't know that).  Should they not be proclaiming the absent Bran as the rightful king?  Bran, incidentally, did live under Robb's new regime, and so was going by Prince Bran back when he was still around people who cared about such things.

I agree that the Boltons crossed the Iron Thrown Crown when they took in Sansa, let alone marrying her into their family.  It's possible that Littlefinger assured Roose that Cersei's days were numbered and that the new, young King Tommen had much bigger fish to fry (both probably true).  Also, "it is known" that no southern army (at least none without dragons) can get past Moat Cailin.  [this is a problem created entirely by D&D that is avoided in the books by having the Lannisters hand Roose fakeArya].

But Roose might feel that declaring himself King in the North like Robb did would be a step too far and one that neither the Iron Throne Crown nor its aligned families would allow to stand unopposed.  After all, that declaration would declare an end to the unified kingdom established by Aegon, and leave the other Wardens potentially vulnerable to forces wanted to claim their own crowns.

However, when it comes to the Starks, I think insistence on a Northern Kingdom separate from the rest of Westeros may actually be a condition (or at least a very strong inducement) of the remaining Stark loyalists to reestablish a Stark in Winterfell. [in that regard, it's a shame the Show didn't leave in Robb's assumed legitimizing of Jon]

[lmsweb]

1 hour ago, FozzyBear said:

I didn't really like the Danny stuff. Mostly I thought it was just dumb. Like that was the whole plan? Just push over some lamps because you don't burn? THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!? Seriously. We could have saved ourselves a bunch of random crone club conversations and Dothraki Cochella scenes. It felt more like they are just trying to get 1 Danny boob shot per episode. No more, no less.

Because killing a bunch of retired Khaleesis would serve no purpose. Killing the Khals gave her an army.

[kittykat]

Quote

When Jon handed the cloak over, he told Edd to wear it, burn it, whatever, he didn't care.  I don't think he was choosing Edd as his successor per se.  Though since Edd is the only non-extra left in the Nights Watch, he'll probably get it.

And it's a nice shout out to the end of ASOS when one or two people jokingly vote for him every night before Jon wins it.

Quote

The High Sparrows ideal state will never seem attractive to rich or middle class people, but in Westeros, there seems to be a much larger divide between the haves and the have nots.  There are the Noble Houses, with a few "middle class" people around, probably those favored in some way, or lesser nobility with small houses, their vassals, with Littlefinger, when he started, being the smallest and poorest of all of them, with his few stony acres and dozen families with a couple of sheep.  Then there are the majority of people, the poor, desperately poor, used to do their bidding, whether that is to die in various wars so the rich can become richer or the powerful even more powerful, or to grow the food the rich eat, be their servants, make their clothes while their own children wear rags, etc.   Before these rich people wars began, they had barely enough to get by, now?  They have much less than enough to get by.  Their children are not educated, there is no way to rise in rank, other than being especially valiant in war, they are at the mercy of people like Cersei, and Tywin, and Karstarks, and Boltons (on and on) who basically have no mercy. 

And even though it's been thrown down everyone's throats since episode one no one seems to be planning for the fact that WINTER IS COMING!!!  

Both the Tyrells and Lannisters don't give two shits about innocent people dying so that precious Margeary doesn't have to walk the naked mile.  Tywin marched on the Riverlands after Cat seized Tyrion because he felt it besmirched his family honor therefore innocent people from the Riverlands had to die.  The noble houses are all about keeping their just desserts (that includes Olenna).  They are fighting to maintain the status quo as an oligarchy and oppressors to the poor farmers and artisans who make next to nothing.  They may be prepared for winter as far as clothing and stores but screw the little people who aren't.  It's not that I don't agree with the High Sparrow but I think he is trying to open their eyes as looking at the bigger picture.  Unfortunately it's never going to happen.  Cersei only put him in power to get out of her own engagement with Loras.

[paigow]

40 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Though since Edd is the only non-extra left in the Nights Watch, he'll probably get it....

Edd is one of the few non-Wildlings that Tormund and Wun-Wun would not kill on sight.

Tormund said that Ygritte talked non-stop about killing Jon Snow...that proved how much she loved Jon. I can imagine Tormund getting increasingly aroused when Brienne utters a death threat following each of his attempts to reach the Wildling equivalent of first base...