S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion was in charge of King's Landing for the whole of Season 2, meaning that he was, in fact, the person most responsible for Sansa's continued imprisonment at that time; were he to have gotten word of her desire to escape (e.g., her meetings with Ser Dontos in the books, or with Littlefinger in the show) he would have stopped her.  He fought against the Starks at the Green Fork (or tried to, in the show, anyway), and was a senior cabinet minister for the entirety of the period until his arrest.  He is, by any definition, an active and generally willing participant in his family's political and military ambitions.  So no, it is not merely his name.  They are on different sides in the war.  That he is nicer than the others, something she repeatedly acknowledged in both media, does not mean he is not still one of her jailers.

He's not her jailer, but she's also not a snotty bitch. On the show she nearly befriended him before the Red Wedding put her into a state of mind that rendered it impossible for her to be friendly at all. In the books she wished she could trust him, but she couldn't. There wasn't anything snotty about it, except her behavior at the wedding where she proudly refused to kneel and humiliated Tyrion, who couldn't reach her shoulders to put the cloak around them. That small defiance was perfectly understandable. It's just sad that the only Lannister she ever made suffer was the one who sympathized with her.

[Bill1978]

Finally got around to watching the actual episode instead of living through the forum and Wikipedia. And once again The north held my attention. And wow that Stark reunion was great. Brilliant acting from both actors and even Gwendoline was great in the background. Looking down at the ground as Sansa and Jon went in for the reunion, like she wanted the moment to be private for the two of them. Ramsay's scene didn't even bother me, shame I was hping for the death to be the other way around. But at least Osha gave it her best stab.

For the first time in ages, Dany's storyline didn't totally bore me. Maybe cause I was forced to read so it kept me focused LOL. I actually feel hopeful with her plot at the moment. I thought we were going to meandering in the Dothraki camp for a lot longer. I have hope we are outta there next week. She can zoom to Mereen and move that plot along as well. I feel the show is just paddling water until Dany get back

King's Landin still bores me, I think it really is time they start to link King's Landing with what is happening North. Start making them relevant in the big picture.

I;m holding judgment on the Iron Island's plot. This is my first experience with this area but I feel there is a bigger purpose to the plot then the little snippets we have seen which seems to be detached from either the North or Essos.

I did not miss Arya at all. And was a bit disappointed to see we are going back there next week. But then they moved to showing the White Walkers and I'm eager for next week t get there. I loved the tension of Hardhome and I am hoping for more of the same. Although I am trying to work out why Bran travelled to the White Walkers home.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I don't think that would have been true if she'd married Lancel. And she should have, really. She probably chose Tyrion precisely so she would not be tempted to love a Lannister.

No, she chose Tyrion because he was nicer than Lancel.  We know that because she explicitly said that in her internal dialogue.

[Haleth]

14 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Well, winter is coming

Posters are lamenting the tight CGI budget and lack of wolves and dragons, but the lack of, you know, winter is hurting the story too.  At this point "winter is coming" is laughable.  Where are the raging blizzards and freezing temps that hindered Stannis's army?  )Of course winter would prevent characters from moving around.  Sansa wouldn't be able to travel from Winterfell to Castle Black in a day and a half.)  No wonder no one is preparing.  Winter is apparently highly overrated.

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Funzlerks said:

Dany's strange calmness while setting people on fire is creepy as hell.  I can't imagine book Varys or book Tyrion liking the idea of every Dothraki in the world landing on Westeros.  But I am sure nothing will get in the way for our little perfect future Queen.  At least for long.  She'll always have that magic that she doesn't need to practice or those dragons she doesn't have to care for or those subjects she doesn't have to do anything for or the advisors she never needs to listen to.

Don't worry, Dany will get it in the end. Strip away her first two seasons of victimhood and she's the classic Evil Overlord trope.... as I put it elsewhere;

Her army is ruthless Dothraki raiders, her navy will be the Ironborn, her elite forces are fanatically loyal guys in black armor and face concealing helmets and it won't be too long until she'll have the human-sacrificing Red Priests backing her too (at least if the books are anything to go by). She has exotic beauty, is immune to fire and is connected to three living weapons of mass destruction that she regards as her children. She basks in being worshiped like a goddess and wants to tear down the existing order to install herself as absolute dictator. Her current home is a ziggurat with dragons in the basement. She's double-crossed people to gain power, crucified people in a fit of pique without learning who was innocent or guilty of the particular crime and threw a possibly innocent man to be consumed alive by her man-eating dragons just to intimidate people. Just last episode she burned a bunch of people alive with a smile on her face and used the event to seize power for herself.

Every evil overlord started out somewhere and I doubt many see their actions as evil either... they're necessary actions taken for the greater good of the world even if some must suffer and die to get to their envisioned utopia.

[benteen]

25 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Posters are lamenting the tight CGI budget and lack of wolves and dragons, but the lack of, you know, winter is hurting the story too.  At this point "winter is coming" is laughable.  Where are the raging blizzards and freezing temps that hindered Stannis's army?  )Of course winter would prevent characters from moving around.  Sansa wouldn't be able to travel from Winterfell to Castle Black in a day and a half.)  No wonder no one is preparing.  Winter is apparently highly overrated.

I think winter has been forgotten in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms at this point.  Hopefully by the end of the season we'll start seeing more of it.

[nksarmi]

8 hours ago, Knuckles said:

It is an interesting point, though generally Cersei does not seem given to introspection, especially involving her own faulty judgments. But I like that

blogger's  remark on the cluelessness of decent people to detect true evil when they meet it. For most of us there is a tendency to minimize it, or to assume there is some core decency that can be found or appealed to, with disastrous results. You see that most with Littlefinger...I think the major players see the brothel keeper as sleazy and money-grubbing, but they underestimate his true nature. They use him when he's useful and never imagine he will use and discard them when they are most vulnerable. The frustration I felt with Ned in his dealings with Littlefinger was that I would have underestimated the little shit as well.

Ned's dealings with both Littlefinger is the biggest area I do fault him in. His wife told him to trust LF so he did, but holy shit Ned think!  This man was so smitten with Cat that he tried to duel your brother for his hand. Only Cat's begging saved the man's life. That is a huge wound to pride. Of all the men in KL's Ned should have been leery of trusting and expecting potential betrayal from - it's LF.

The rest of it - I can accept as him being naïve or too noble for his own good. But he should have seen LF coming a mile away.

[Alapaki]

Quote

Cersei in the show strikes me pretty differently. IMO sexpot Cersei casually betraying Jaime didn't really mesh with the writers' vision of Cersei as played by Lena either, but as the affair was too integral to the plot to excise, they shoehorned it in anyway without bothering to sell it as a long-running arrangement or typical behavior on Cersei's part. So possibly I've forgotten some crucial details, but where I'm left now is that Cersei slept with Lancel pretty much out of desperation, because she needed Robert killed. Five seasons later, if feels even more like a plot device and less like Cersei betraying Jaime on any deep level.

IMO, D&D have done the Cersei character a disservice in robbing her of some of her complexity.  Granted, in the books most of the complexity comes across through internal monologues in POV chapters.

But, for example, Cersei's screw-ups in Kings Landing after Tywin's death are much more complex in the books.  She's left alone in Kings Landing when Kevan and Jamie leave town.  She seems to be the only Lannister concerned that the Tyrells are trying to elbow them out and become the de facto "royal family" of Westeros.  She recognizes that as long as Stannis and his very legitimate claim to the Baratheon throne live the rumors of Tommen's non-Baratheon conception are extremely dangerous.  And she has no one there to work with, except for Qyburn, who is deranged.

The scheme she cooks up (to use the Faith to accomplish her goals) is Wile E. Coyote-ian and naive.  But her inability to see an alternative is, I think, understandable.

[Alapaki]

Quote

If this is medieval times, then yeah, you are going to hole yourself in your own country. The North was a completely different culture than the southern kingdoms and a pretty big fucking job on its own. Stannis remarked that even though Robert had Ned, the Northerners were hard to bring to heel. As a blogger wrote about Ned and Robb and their personality, "cluelessness about the nature and behavior of evil, untrustworthy men to be as frustrating as it is realistic."

This is absolutely correct.  My sense is that even after the North submitted to Targaryen rule, it remained a semi-autonomous region that considered itself "subject" to the Crown in name only.

And that makes sense.  

The North has no resources that the rest of Westeros needs.

Geographically, setting aside the presence of dragons, the North is extremely difficult to invade and conquer.

I think the most important benefit the North provided to the rest of Westeros was by being an additional buffer between the South and whatever-the-hell it was that caused the Wall to be built all those years ago.  If the North wants to play "mini-Kingdom" in exchange for being human shields for the rest of Westeros, I'm sure the power-structure in Kings Landing would be just fine with that.  As long as they didn't formally declare independence and give the other regions idea.

[benteen]

Quote

IMO, D&D have done the Cersei character a disservice in robbing her of some of her complexity.  Granted, in the books most of the complexity comes across through internal monologues in POV chapters.

I've felt this about the Tyrion character too.  D&D have gone out of their way to strip the character of all his shades of gray to the point that they've made Tyrion a one-dimensional character on the show.  It's only Peter Dinklage's portrayal that keeps him interesting although Tyrion's character has suffered from not in the King's Landing storyline, just like his book counterpart has suffered from being out of King's Landing.  Tyrion's character thrived there.

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

 

I don't think that would have been true if she'd married Lancel. And she should have, really. She probably chose Tyrion precisely so she would not be tempted to love a Lannister.

Sansa had a choice?  I thought she was ordered to marry Tyrion -- by Joffrey/Tywin.

[stillshimpy]

I agree that at this stage in the show alienating Jamie's affections via the Lancel reveal would likely be a misstep. If that happened without the supporting story it would seem like a form of reductive possessiveness, whittling Jamie's love down to being about one thing. 

 

Still, without that, I don't know how Jamie can actually willingly leave Cersei. The show's treatment of their relationship is pretty freaking off putting, even more so than in the books. Whoever said that Jamie has essentially been reduced to Cersei's bullying sidekick pegged it, as far as I'm concerned. I have never cared for show Jamie, but book Jamie at least appeared to be on the cusp of some interesting character development.

At present he really has so little to do. 

[Alapaki]

Quote

Sansa had a choice?  I thought she was ordered to marry Tyrion -- by Joffrey/Tywin.

You're absolutely correct.  (first of all, though, Sansa was never in the running for Lancel, she was offered Willas, the gimpy heir to Highgarden, by Olenna [in the show I believe this was switched to Loras]).

And as soon as Tywin learned of that scheme (courtesy of Littlefinger) he pronounced the engagement between Sansa and Tyrion.  Tywin wants a claim on Winterfell should Robb die (as we know in retrospect he was planning at the time).  

[Maximum Taco]

27 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Sansa had a choice?  I thought she was ordered to marry Tyrion -- by Joffrey/Tywin.

She was, but right before the wedding Tyrion offers to publicly refuse her, and then try to broker a match with Lancel instead. Sansa is, at this point, resigned to her fate and also feels that it makes little difference who she marries, ("Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim") and so tells Tyrion that she is a ward of the throne and her duty is to marry as the king commands.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Gertrude]

5 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

... Perhaps she could have gone to Riverrun to enjoy the Red Wedding with her family. Or sent to the Eyrie to be forcibly wed to Robin Arryn or murdered by Lyssa or both. She did narrowly miss falling to her death from the Moon Door.

To be fair, Tyrion didn't have our book knowledge about the Red Wedding or that Lysa was so unstable that she would attempt to murder her own niece. Either place would have been with family and would seem safer for Sansa than King's Landing where she was surrounded by enemies. I'm not trying to argue the point of whether Tyrion should have let her go or not, but if others do, we should at least use character knowledge rather than book knowledge.

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

I think winter has been forgotten in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms at this point.  Hopefully by the end of the season we'll start seeing more of it.

That was pretty jarring in the Littlefinger scene in the Vale.  The place didn't even look autumnal yet.

22 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I agree that at this stage in the show alienating Jamie's affections via the Lancel reveal would likely be a misstep. If that happened without the supporting story it would seem like a form of reductive possessiveness, whittling Jamie's love down to being about one thing. 

 

Still, without that, I don't know how Jamie can actually willingly leave Cersei

I've been trying to come up with another motivation for Jaime leaving that doesn't involve Cercei's long-ago infidelity and I'm stuggling.  Maybe if, as speculated earlier in this thread, she's got secret agents in the attack on the Faith Militant who are assigned to kill Marge and Loras, and Jaime finds out about it and is repulsed?  That doesn't really sound right either, considering his "F everyone who isn't us" speech in the first episode.  I'm about ready to conclude that he doesn't break with her, and his adventures in the Riverlands are just an assignment he goes on willingly.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 

I've been trying to come up with another motivation for Jaime leaving that doesn't involve Cercei's long-ago infidelity and I'm stuggling.  Maybe if, as speculated earlier in this thread, she's got secret agents in the attack on the Faith Militant who are assigned to kill Marge and Loras, and Jaime finds out about it and is repulsed?  That doesn't really sound right either, considering his "F everyone who isn't us" speech in the first episode.  I'm about ready to conclude that he doesn't break with her, and his adventures in the Riverlands are just an assignment he goes on willingly.

What happens if tragedy befalls Tommen?  Does Jamie blame Cersei?  Does Cersei blame Jamie?  Would the weight of grief drive them apart as it does many couples who lose a child -- let alone a couple who lost three?

[benteen]

Yeah, with how they've whitewashed a lot of Cersei's actions, I can't think of a reason that Jaime would leave her other than sleeping with Lancel.  I can't even imagine Show Jaime wanting to leave Tommen behind either.  D&D have a lot affair with the Cersei character, believing she's not evil and only a "misunderstood mom" who has a right to be angry while Jaime is a "monster who loves killing."  Stannis is another character they didn't like.  What characters you like and don't like is up to the person but to me it has affected the way the character is written for the show.  You either like or your hate Stannis but he's a great character in the books, capable of decisive action.  On the show, he can't even wipe his ass or think of an original idea without Melisandre.

NCW has always killed it as Jaime and should have gotten an Emmy nomination for Season 3, which was the high point of his character.  But since the return to King's Landing (and the decision to have him arrive before Joffrey's death) it has been slowly downhill for the character.  Whether it was having him rape Cersei in the sept or giving him a boring as hell mission to Dorne to his current role as lapdog/bulldog for Cersei, one of the best characters in the books has been completely misused.

[Alapaki]

Quote

What happens if tragedy befalls Tommen?  Does Jamie blame Cersei?  Does Cersei blame Jamie?  Would the weight of grief drive them apart as it does many couples who lose a child -- let alone a couple who lost three?

Well, the rumor is that there's a bloodbath coming to Kings Landing that will make the end of Reservoir Dogs look like a mere slap-fight.  If that's the case, maybe Jamie is the last-Lannister-standing and has nothing to keep in in Kings Landing?

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Well, the rumor is that there's a bloodbath coming to Kings Landing that will make the end of Reservoir Dogs look like a mere slap-fight.  If that's the case, maybe Jamie is the last-Lannister-standing and has nothing to keep in in Kings Landing?

Haven't heard that rumor, but frankly reading the tea leaves on my own it doesn't surprise me.  That's what I haven't been able to understand about so many comments in so many places (not all here) about the boring waste of time with the High Sparrow.  I don't think we've gotten to the story yet.

[stillshimpy]

Maybe Mountainstein will squish Tommen as he tries to kill Marg at Cersei's say so and Jamie will finally realize they are a toxic pairing? 

 

Knowing this show, if it happens it will more likely be Cersei shunning Jamie though. They have flipped the script on the character arcs thus far.

[Chris24601]

15 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I've been trying to come up with another motivation for Jaime leaving that doesn't involve Cercei's long-ago infidelity and I'm stuggling.  Maybe if, as speculated earlier in this thread, she's got secret agents in the attack on the Faith Militant who are assigned to kill Marge and Loras, and Jaime finds out about it and is repulsed?  That doesn't really sound right either, considering his "F everyone who isn't us" speech in the first episode.  I'm about ready to conclude that he doesn't break with her, and his adventures in the Riverlands are just an assignment he goes on willingly.

I'm suspecting that is the case as well. We only presume that Jaime's break from Cercei in the books will be permanent and successful (and look there's Brienne as a better and healthier love interest for him), but that's not the only path the story could take. There's no reason the ultimate message of Jaime's story won't be that some people just aren't capable of redemption no matter how hard they try and will backslide again and again and again... particularly if there are other available counterpoints where someone else viewed as irredeemable (ex. Theon) do actually pull off their redemption arc successfully.

If this is actually Jaime's ending and D&D are aware of it, they may have just decided to not bother with it and, knowing that Jaime would never break free of Cersei, set up Tormund as the perfect ship for Brienne that we never knew we wanted until it smacked us in the face with its awesomeness (one of my friends I watched it with who had been a Jaime/Brienne fan keyed in instantly to Tormund's love at first sight, could not get enough of it and wants to see them make big beautiful babies together. THAT is how well Tormend/Brienne fit together in a way that Jaime/Brienne never did).

[Alapaki]

Quote

If this is actually Jaime's ending and D&D are aware of it, they may have just decided to not bother with it and, knowing that Jaime would never break free of Cersei, set up Tormund as the perfect ship for Brienne

That's possible.  But I think Jaime's "attraction" to Brienne in the books is more a symptom of his redemption than a case of opposites-attract/romantic interest.  If that's the case, I think it's possible to play out a redemption arc for Jaime that doesn't necessarily include a relationship with Brienne.

Honestly, I don't think D&D have screwed Jaime's redemption arc the way some posters do.  Most of Jaime's change of heart regarding Cersei is revealed in his thoughts from Jaime POV chapters.  I believe the two more significant pieces of evidence of Jaime's redemption are: 1) his giving Brienne his sword to go find/protect Sansa; and 2) his helping to free Tyrion.  And D&D have included both of those in the show.

I do agree, however, that the show has dropped the ball on Jaime's relationship with Cersei.

[Funzlerks]

Jaime thinks about Cersei constantly in the Riverlands.  He on occasion thinks of Brienne when there is something that reminds him of her.  I don't think Book Jaime was ever done with Cersei.  He was angry with her and more angry with himself for being duped.  To me, it all related back to his pride.  He still has it and it becomes warped.  He took pride in being the one who would actually trebuchet a baby against a castle wall.  I think a lot of readers glossed over that because he had been more chummy than usual with his traveling companions and gave Brienne a sword one time.  I saw Book Jaime as someone who was continuing to wallow in his bad reputation.  Like, why did he never tell Ned the truth when they were both young and Ned would have believed it.  I think this is the angle the show runners  are playing up with Jaime.  He obsesses about what others think of him because he spends so much time pissing on everyone else.

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Sansa had a choice?  I thought she was ordered to marry Tyrion -- by Joffrey/Tywin.

She was offered a choice of Tyrion or Lancel. She chose Tyrion. It wasn't a great array of choices, but I think if she had requested a different Lannister--say, Tywin, she'd have gotten her request. The whole idea was to link Winterfell to Tywin, sure. No, she didn't have the option of simply remaining single, which would have been her first choice. But she did have a choice of which loathed Lannister to marry--an ugly dwarf she'd met who'd been kind to her, or a beautiful young man her own age who was clueless about the Lannister schemes apart from the whole "murder Robert" thing. Lancel would have been a terrific patsy for the murder of Joffrey.

[WearyTraveler]

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:35 AM, that one guy said:

This is a flashback to the first season, when Dany emerged from the flames and all the remaining Dothraki bowed to her. As with Jon's resurrection, those around her think she's a god of some kind. So do I, born of salt and smoke and waking dragons from stone and all that, she's definitely Azor Azai. But I digress. I'd like to know more about who helped her by barring the doors. Jorah knew this because he was there the first time, Daario 2.0 seemed genuinely shocked.

I thin Emilia Clarke insisted on no more gratuitous sex scenes and sexposition. The nudity here was entirely appropriate, it was a callback to the first season, her clothing would have been flammable, and it was unfashionable anyway.

I have a hard time seeing Dany as Azor Ahai because neither the books nor the show have her fighting with a sword of any kind, and she's never told the stories about the WW, or the long night.  She doesn't even know about the Children of the Forest, or the Old Gods.  She doesn't know about R'hllor.

I think that for the "Dany is Azor Ahai" theory to work, she has to have some kind of connection to / awareness of these things before she meets her final enemy.  There's no groundwork in the material (written or in the visual media) that establishes any of these connections, and since we are approaching the end of the story in both, the books and the show, it's a little late to start establishing any of that right now.

Meanwhile, Jon, presumably a son of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) is aware and has actually fought White Walkers and wights.  I think he's a more likey candidate.

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 4:26 AM, AuntTora said:

So Loras is alive, wasn't that left very uncertain in the books? Speaking of, while watching tonight I became convinced that GRRM is never going publish. It just seems like it's pointless now. Are people that in love with his prose? Unless the next book comes out before next season, and takes the story beyond THIS season...I can't see it.

Literally laughed out loud at the "Tom Jones" style dinner and eye-f'ing. Ha!

In the books Loras is said to be badly wounded and at death's door, but it's all hearsay, we don't know how good/bad he's doing.

I would read the books when/if they are finished. I think Martin overindulges, but, in general, I find his storytelling better than the show, so I would be interested in seeing how he gets his characters to the ending point.  Plus, I'm looking forward to reading about book characters that never made it to the show.  But I'm a bit OCD when it comes to books (have to finish them, even if I hate the story two chapters in).

 

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 1:07 PM, Constantinople said:

OMG

Daenerys Targaryen is Carrie.

Except Carrie didn't need someone else to lock the gym doors for her at the prom.

LMAO!

20 hours ago, benteen said:

Well, in having Jon choose his successor, they did ignore the fact that the Night's Watch elects its own members.  Maybe they're just waiting for a vote to make it official.

He didn't choose his successor, as they did during the battle with the Wildlings, he left someone in charge, which is not the same (remember "You have the Wall").  Even in the books, someone was left in charge while the brothers chose the next Commander. The position is temporarily filled by the most senior officer, or a committee of senior officers, or whoever they figure the LC would have left in charge.

In this case the LC was there to make his choice, but that doesn't mean the NW isn't going to have a new election.  Although with so few of them left...

19 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I don't recall Tyrion having a hand in Sansa's imprisonment, or the murder of her father, brother or mother.  His only crime in any of that is his name. You are overlooking the fact that Tyrion was barely tolerated by his family, only having the support of Jamie.  My point here is that Tyrion was at best the kindest of the people she encountered in King's Landing.  Now, if you want to say that she lashed out at at him because of the actions of a few Lannisters, I will agree with you.  But that still makes her a snotty bitch who was unable to hold the proper parties responsible for injuries done to her.  Now while certain Lannisters may have been behind the murders of Catelyn and Rob (frankly, I don't remember), I believe that was actually carried out by the Freys.  The murder of Ned Stark rests firmly on Joffrey's shoulders.  If she meets Tyrion again, I hope that she is as kind as she was to Theron (who was responsible for Rob's betrayal and the subsequent fall-out) when they parted.  I don't think Dany would be bothered with Sansa Stark at all.

Regarding the part I bolded: It was planned and orchestrated by Tywin, Roose and Walder.  They were playing "The Rains of Castamere" while it happened (both in the books and on the show); that's the Lannisters hymn.  And while Roose killed Robb he said "The Lannisters send their regards" (for which he's later rewarded with the title of Warden of the North).

Walder might have been itching for vengeance and Roose might have been thirsty for power, but there are strong indications that Tywin was the mastermind behind the Red Wedding.

[Oscirus]

Quote

 

I think that for the "Dany is Azor Ahai" theory to work, she has to have some kind of connection to / awareness of these things before she meets her final enemy.  There's no groundwork in the material (written or in the visual media) that establishes any of these connections, and since we are approaching the end of the story in both, the books and the show, it's a little late to start establishing any of that right now.

Meanwhile, Jon, presumably a son of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) is aware and has actually fought White Walkers and wights.  I think he's a more likey candidate

 

I agree with a theory I read about the prince and Azor being two different people.  Dany's the only person in the story walking around with weapons powered with the souls of people that she loved/killed. Unless Jon gets another girlfriend in the next three seasons, I'm not seeing how he could be azor.

[Hecate7]

50 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

Jaime thinks about Cersei constantly in the Riverlands.  He on occasion thinks of Brienne when there is something that reminds him of her.  I don't think Book Jaime was ever done with Cersei.  He was angry with her and more angry with himself for being duped.  To me, it all related back to his pride.  He still has it and it becomes warped.  He took pride in being the one who would actually trebuchet a baby against a castle wall.  I think a lot of readers glossed over that because he had been more chummy than usual with his traveling companions and gave Brienne a sword one time.  I saw Book Jaime as someone who was continuing to wallow in his bad reputation.  Like, why did he never tell Ned the truth when they were both young and Ned would have believed it.  I think this is the angle the show runners  are playing up with Jaime.  He obsesses about what others think of him because he spends so much time pissing on everyone else.

What??? Why are you taking the trebuchet line literally?  The Lannister words are "Hear Me Roar." He's roaring. It's a threat, a threat so terrible that it MUST be taken seriously. But he doesn't intend to follow through--he's sure he won't have to, and he's right. Just as Tyrion fervently hoped he wouldn't have to go through with the threats he made against Tommen. The Lannister men all "roar," making theatrically horrible threats, and maintaining a reputation just scary enough that those threats will be believed.

I don't gloss over it. It's one of my favorite lines. It's just so shocking and glib, so what a Lannister should say.

He was not proud of the idea of trebucheting a baby. He was proud that he had thought of a threat terrible enough that Edmure would submit without Jaime having to draw a sword against a Stark or a Tully, or spill one drop of their blood. Had Edmure called Jaime's bluff, it would have been terrible either way, but I believe the one-handed lion would have revealed his toothlessness at that point. He was proud precisely because he was able to conceal AND keep his vow to Catelyn with one "roar."

 

But speaking of roars, there is one obvious reason, in the dialogue of the show, to play down or ignore a redemption arc for Jaime.

Spoiler

He has threatened a certain character, and if in the books it is his fate to kill the one person he loved as much as Cersei or himself, that would be a reason not to emphasize the redemption arc too much.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Hecate7

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

I think winter has been forgotten in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms at this point.  Hopefully by the end of the season we'll start seeing more of it.

Well, it was pretty much delayed in the books up until now as well.  However, with Theon apparently teleporting himself to the Iron Islands in record speed, and Sansa zooming to The Wall so fast, things might finally be moving along.  I will say that Littlefinger is aware of Winter Coming, and one of the very few actually preparing for that.  Buying food at any cost, choosing a very defendable location in The Vale.  So, Winter could arrive very soon!  I hope.

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, with how they've whitewashed a lot of Cersei's actions, I can't think of a reason that Jaime would leave her other than sleeping with Lancel.  I can't even imagine Show Jaime wanting to leave Tommen behind either.  D&D have a lot affair with the Cersei character, believing she's not evil and only a "misunderstood mom" who has a right to be angry while Jaime is a "monster who loves killing."  Stannis is another character they didn't like.  What characters you like and don't like is up to the person but to me it has affected the way the character is written for the show.  You either like or your hate Stannis but he's a great character in the books, capable of decisive action.  On the show, he can't even wipe his ass or think of an original idea without Melisandre.

NCW has always killed it as Jaime and should have gotten an Emmy nomination for Season 3, which was the high point of his character.  But since the return to King's Landing (and the decision to have him arrive before Joffrey's death) it has been slowly downhill for the character.  Whether it was having him rape Cersei in the sept or giving him a boring as hell mission to Dorne to his current role as lapdog/bulldog for Cersei, one of the best characters in the books has been completely misused.

Maybe they are going to dump the rest of the Riverlands story completely?  Or simply refer to it in passing and leave Jamie out of it?  They've ruined his character so completely, at this point, why include his heartbroken rejection of Cersei?  Oddly enough, for as ineffectual as GRRM's various tales of love can be, his writing was beautiful about the compelling attraction, and reasons for this pairing.  It did make Cersei more sympathetic, or at least understandable, the reasons for the twincest were compelling.  The show wasted all of that to bulk her character up in other ways, blunting both her motivations and her cruelty, in that capitol, and certainly with Jamie.  The rape just put the final nail in that story.  Book Jamie wasn't jealous, he was betrayed and crushed, his entire life had been devoted to Cersei and his own quite real sense of honor (killing the mad King and preventing him from burning Kings Landing to the ground.)  He was complex and compelling, but the show failed there, and I don't think it was to streamline things.  I think it was for Lena. (not Cersei, Lena.)

Oh well.

[RedheadZombie]

Can anyone explain where Bronn is?  I'm not as in love with him as some, but his humor is missed.  I heard a while back that the actor had a relationship with LH that ended poorly, and they couldn't/wouldn't film scenes together any longer.  Since KL has lost so many characters, maybe it's difficult to work Bronn into the script in a way that avoids Cersei.  Any thoughts?  Maybe he's just hanging around to re-join Jaime on his next journey.

10 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Well, there was a time I wish he had just put her on a horse and sent her North. Imagine her trekking through all those lines and lines of soldiers, all spoiling to rape any girl they saw...or off to Winterfell to be raped in its burnt ruins by Theon or Ramsey or both in sequence, or to be sitting in whichever castle got sacked next. Perhaps she could have gone to Riverrun to enjoy the Red Wedding with her family. Or sent to the Eyrie to be forcibly wed to Robin Arryn or murdered by Lyssa or both. She did narrowly miss falling to her death from the Moon Door. Or maybe he should have packed her off to Dragonstone to be burned alive by Melisandre. After all, her brother Robb was King of the North, and a traitor against Stannis Baratheon. I doubt he'd have objected at all to the sacrifice of the traitor's sister if her sacrifice could win him the throne or wake dragons out of stone.  But I think Tyrion was actually smart enough to know that precisely those fates awaited her if he did let send her away, and that, as horrible as it was for both of them, the safest place for Sansa actually was with Tyrion, who felt guilty every time he thought of or looked at her, and who, unlike anyone else outside her immediate family, considered that he owed her something. He considered taking her to Casterly Rock, far from Joffrey and Cersei, hoping out of sight would be out of mind. But fate and Littlefinger decided otherwise.

Sansa's status as prisoner is completely irrelevant to her relationship to Tyrion. He was never her jailer.

Sometimes it's easy to mix up someone's opinion on a message board with what I've actually seen on the show.  But was there a scene on the show in which Tyrion tells Sansa (or someone) that the Lannister name grants her protection.  As if part of the reason he didn't fight harder to avoid their marriage was because he knew she would be safer against sadistic Joffrey, or a plot of Tywin's.  Perhaps I'm romanticizing their brief relationship, but I still think Tyrion was the only male non-family member who treated her kindly - on the show at least.  And to add to the speculation upthread regarding why Tyrion got so drunk at their wedding - He gave Sansa a look when she was disrobing that implied he would not be averse to the bedding, and seemed a little entranced by her.  I wonder if one of the reasons for his absolute drunken state was to ensure he wouldn't give in to temptation.

6 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Ned's dealings with both Littlefinger is the biggest area I do fault him in. His wife told him to trust LF so he did, but holy shit Ned think!  This man was so smitten with Cat that he tried to duel your brother for his hand. Only Cat's begging saved the man's life. That is a huge wound to pride. Of all the men in KL's Ned should have been leery of trusting and expecting potential betrayal from - it's LF.

The rest of it - I can accept as him being naïve or too noble for his own good. But he should have seen LF coming a mile away.

As I've stated previously, I've only read the first chapters of the first book.  It seemed to me that Cat was very distrusting of LF in the early chapters of that first book.  It surprised me because from what I'd seen of the show, I thought she still cared for him (platonically) from their childhood.  That's before I knew LF had impregnated Lyssa and not married her.  So maybe that's why early book Catelyn didn't think much of LF.  Or I'm making that up.

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

She was offered a choice of Tyrion or Lancel. She chose Tyrion. It wasn't a great array of choices, but I think if she had requested a different Lannister--say, Tywin, she'd have gotten her request. The whole idea was to link Winterfell to Tywin, sure. No, she didn't have the option of simply remaining single, which would have been her first choice. But she did have a choice of which loathed Lannister to marry--an ugly dwarf she'd met who'd been kind to her, or a beautiful young man her own age who was clueless about the Lannister schemes apart from the whole "murder Robert" thing. Lancel would have been a terrific patsy for the murder of Joffrey.

Why did Tywin never remarry?  He lost Jaime as his heir, hated Tyrion, yet never seemed interested in making more sons.  I understand that he loved his wife, but he seems the type who always thinks of duty first.  Where was his duty to ensure the Lannister name continued?

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I agree with a theory I read about the prince and Azor being two different people.  Dany's the only person in the story walking around with weapons powered with the souls of people that she loved/killed. Unless Jon gets another girlfriend in the next three seasons, I'm not seeing how he could be azor.

Forgive me if this is an extremely ignorant question, but why does Jon's lack of girlfriend preclude him from being Azor Ahai?

[Knuckles]

Just a funny note that the director of the episode wondered if the audience would pick up on the Brienne/Tormund eyefest...he was concerned that it was too understated and would be overlooked.  Gee, you think? The internet lit up on that one.

And to Umbellina's point earlier in the thread that I labeled the poor folks coming together to protest the wrongs against them a mob...I acknowledge that "mob" is often pejorative. And I did not mean it as such. Alternatively, I tried a "gathering", or a "crush"...but "movement" seems too organized a term. I am open to suggestions. 

I did find a word for the nobles banding together against poors...a murder of nobles. (From, a murder of crows).

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Well, there was a time I wish he had just put her on a horse and sent her North. Imagine her trekking through all those lines and lines of soldiers, all spoiling to rape any girl they saw...or off to Winterfell to be raped in its burnt ruins by Theon or Ramsey or both in sequence, or to be sitting in whichever castle got sacked next. Perhaps she could have gone to Riverrun to enjoy the Red Wedding with her family. Or sent to the Eyrie to be forcibly wed to Robin Arryn or murdered by Lyssa or both. She did narrowly miss falling to her death from the Moon Door. Or maybe he should have packed her off to Dragonstone to be burned alive by Melisandre. After all, her brother Robb was King of the North, and a traitor against Stannis Baratheon. I doubt he'd have objected at all to the sacrifice of the traitor's sister if her sacrifice could win him the throne or wake dragons out of stone.  But I think Tyrion was actually smart enough to know that precisely those fates awaited her if he did let send her away, and that, as horrible as it was for both of them, the safest place for Sansa actually was with Tyrion, who felt guilty every time he thought of or looked at her, and who, unlike anyone else outside her immediate family, considered that he owed her something. He considered taking her to Casterly Rock, far from Joffrey and Cersei, hoping out of sight would be out of mind. But fate and Littlefinger decided otherwise.

Sansa's status as prisoner is completely irrelevant to her relationship to Tyrion. He was never her jailer.

Sansa was not being kept in King's Landing for her own protection.  That's preposterous.  And yes, Tyrion was one of her jailers, and her status as a prisoner is entirely relevant to her relationship with Tyrion, because it is the only reason her relationship with Tyrion exists.  She was forced to marry him at swordpoint.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

The Sansa/Tyrion debate seems to have taken over this thread. Please take any further discussion about that to a more appropriate topic and let's get back on track about the episode in here.

Thanks.

[Ambrosefolly]

While I don't think killing Osha will kill the show, I don't think that decision will help the show. Can you imagine the comedy gold if Jon, Sansa and the Wildings are successful and Osha was interacting with all those people? She knew Mance (or of him), I wonder if she knew Tormand? I would write in that she did, just for the interaction.

[screamin]

What may get mindless stooge Jaime to finally break with Cersei would probably be something like Cersei sending Frankenmountain on a Totally Sekrit Inconspicuous Mission to make utterly sure Margaery gets 'tragically killed in the battle' when the Tyrrells take the Sept. Tommen will likely panic when the battle starts and may even recklessly ride out to help Margaery. Cersei, panic-stricken and not having foreseen this eventuality, will have to confess what she's done to Jaime and send him out to save Tommen - which one-handed Jaime is unlikely to be able to do.

I just don't think the infidelity with Lancel is going to be enough to get THIS Jaime to give up on Cersei. She could probably cozen him back into compliance with the plea that she HAD to have Lancel's help killing Bob to save the kids.

Another thing: DID the High Sparrow really tell Tommen he was going to make Margaery do a Walk of Shame? It seems to me that would be revealing too much to Tommen. Tommen seemed rather calm about the revelation, and I don't think he'd be that calm knowing that his wife was about to go through the same ordeal he's already tortured with guilt for having allowed his mother to go through it.

Maybe the High Sparrow hinted that he was soon planning to let Margaery off easy - and Cersei, not wanting that to happen, told Olenna the exact opposite to induce her to attack the Sept before Margaery is allowed to leave it. What do youse all think?

Edited May 18, 2016 by screamin

[Audreythe2nd]

All the comments and the misuse of Jaime's character... I just don't think so. I don't think we're seeing what's happening on the show correctly due in large part to a preconceived idea of what's happening in the books, and how it happens in the books. I think there is going to be a really big twist this season with Jaime that even book readers don't see coming, and I think they've set it up differently to make it surprising. I can't quite guess what it is, but all I know is that Jaime and Cersei aren't acting... quite... right around each other. I can't explain it, it's a feeling that I have. I think we're underestimating Jaime here, and what's more, I think they want us to underestimate him.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[WearyTraveler]

14 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Forgive me if this is an extremely ignorant question, but why does Jon's lack of girlfriend preclude him from being Azor Ahai?

I think it's because of the story of how Azor Ahai's sword (Lightbringer) was forged.  From AWOIAF:

Quote

Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon

I believe the OP is saying that Dany's dragons are Lighbringer and that she "tempered" her weapons by killing Khal Drogo, while Jon hasn't tempered his sword by killing the woman he loves.

On that point, I don't know why Lightbringer needs to be re-forged and re-tempered.  It was created once, it was presumably passed down from generation to generation, or lost somewhere. There's no record of that sword having been destroyed.  I don't believe that Azor Ahai reborn needs to make Lightbringer again.  In fact, the prophecy says that (again from AWOIAF):

Quote

When the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn

The stars bleeding has been interpreted as the blood red comet, but we don't know if this is true.  The cold winds blowing could be the resurgence of the WW, or maybe they have not blown at all.  Maybe we need Winter to come, to have that part of the prophecy fulfilled.  In any case, the prophecy doesn't say anything about Azor having to forge a new sword.  It says that Azor will draw the sword from the fire.

Some believe that Jon pulling Longclaw from the fire when he was defending the Lord Commander against the wights at Castle Black is the moment prophesized, I don't think so.  In the books Maester Aemon wanted to know if Stannis sword emitted any heat.  He found it curious that it would glow, but that the steel was cold.

I think we haven't seen the moment Azor pulls Lightbringer out of the fire yet.  I think something will happen and the moment will be quite clear and the sword will emit light and heat, as Maester Aemon thought it should. I find Longclaw a good candidate for Lightbringer.  It's an ancestral sword from the North, where presumably Azor drove out the WW, and we have never heard how the Mormonts came to be in possession of it.

This season the show has had a few shots where the camera is focused on Longclaw, I found that to be interesting.

[paigow]

On 5/18/2016 at 8:55 PM, SeanC said:

Get on the Jedd train!

Add Loras to the mix... Tormund would be shocked at seeing another Westerosi pretty boy that can fight.

[Advance35]

Quote

There's no reason the ultimate message of Jaime's story won't be that some people just aren't capable of redemption no matter how hard they try and will backslide again and again and again... particularly if there are other available counterpoints where someone else viewed as irredeemable (ex. Theon) do actually pull off their redemption arc successfully.

This is my thought as well.  I don't think Jaimie will permanently break from Cersei, I think he's angry and that motivated him in terms of his last correspondence with her.   But I fully expect him to be back on team Cersei/Lannister and doing anything and everything for their advancement and domination of the top of the Great House Hierarchy.   It's the same reason I feel like Stoneheart was cut, ultimately she won't matter, she won't accomplish anything that can't be accomplished by living characters and GRRM saying Stoneheart wasn't in his original or intended storyline pretty much confirms that for me.   The man gets lost in his own ideas, which is understandable and tolerable when you have pages on end to fill but when you run a television show and have budgetary constraints, you don't have time/resource for GRRM's "gardening".

Quote

If this is actually Jaime's ending and D&D are aware of it, they may have just decided to not bother with it and, knowing that Jaime would never break free of Cersei, set up Tormund as the perfect ship for Brienne that we never knew we wanted until it smacked us in the face with its awesomeness

Well I think I am one of the few people to actually love the interaction between Brienne and Hyle Hunt, more then her scenes with Jaimie.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm still holding on to some small hope of salvaging Jaime, but I'll admit it's been rough going the past couple of seasons and I'm not sure I'd bother at this point if I didn't have the love that I do for the book character.  

Maybe it is just reaching on my part  but upon reflection of the mess of the past two seasons, I can see glimmers there that they're trying to do something.  Book Jaime stands guard over Twyin's corpse for a solid week but otherwise never shows any emotion over the role he knows he played in that death by setting Tyrion free.  He never expresses any thoughts about Tyrion at all.  If it wasn't addressed at all on TV, we'd be screaming about omissions and plot holes.  So it actually sort of worked for me that in season 5 he's feeling angry and betrayed at the position Tyrion killing Tywin left him in and tells Bronn that if he ever sees him again, he'll split him in two.  Whether he means it at that moment or if it's what he hopes is an empty threat like saying he'd trebuchet the Tully baby, who knows?  I don't particularly like his voicing book Cersei paranoia about their enemies last season or saying they'll take everything they've lost back and more this season either, but both times they're said on the immediate heels of another murdered family member when thoughts of vengeance are naturally going to be running high along with fears that you're letting the family legacy completely slip through your fingers on your watch.  Jaime's sending Trystane back in the season opener with the letter to Doran and his talk with the High Sparrow an episode or two ago actually did give me shades of book Jaime, wanting to threaten and act impulsively but accepting his limitations and reining it in in favor of the bigger picture of trying to prevent unnecessary bloodshed.

On further reflection, my hunch is that he's on the level with the new Tyrell-Lannister Sekrit Plan to rid the city of the Sparrow stranglehold but that of course Cersei is not and that that's about to become very apparent to him.   If that gets somebody that Cersei clearly wanted out the way killed in short order with Lancel dropping the truth bomb, maybe just maybe that will finally be enough to stop all the yeah, she's a psychopath who maybe murdered a foreign price but she really loves our family nonsense.

Again, maybe I'm reaching.

[lmsweb]

Well, I have to give you kudos for being very passionate in making your point. ;)

[Rockstar99435]

On 5/18/2016 at 5:16 AM, Chris24601 said:

...crucified people in a fit of pique without learning who was innocent or guilty of the particular crime and threw a possibly innocent man to be consumed alive by her man-eating dragons just to intimidate people.

Hizdahr zo Loraq can whine and cry all he wants that his dad didn't personally crucify 163 children, but there's no such thing as an innocent or kind slave owner. He's still guilty of owning people, of stealing their labor, of beating and/or whipping people who didn't work fast enough for free, of rape, of separating mothers from their children and husbands and wives from each other. Hizdahr's father was not an innocent man, and neither were any of the masters that Dany crucified. They were all guilty of continuing the system of slavery. If Margery is guilty because she wore fancy dresses then the guys who literally owned people are definitely guilty.

Also, if I'm hanging out with my friends and they decide that they're going to kill someone, I have a responsibility to do something about it. Even if I argue against doing it, I go along and watch them kill a guy without stopping them, the cops are still going to arrest me. I'm still guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. If Hizdahr's father really felt that torturing children as a way to punish Dany was evil, then he could have done a lot more than sit back and ineffectually said, "Hey don't do that" as children had nails driven through their arms and legs. I have zero sympathy for any of the masters who were crucified. They were perfectly okay with crucifixion being used to punish and terrorize slaves.  

[Oscirus]

Quote

Forgive me if this is an extremely ignorant question, but why does Jon's lack of girlfriend preclude him from being Azor Ahai?

Nothing to forgive, not ignorant at all.  Thanks to Weary Traveler for the thorough answer.

 

Quote

It says that Azor will draw the sword from the fire.

Her loved one's souls infuses her dragons and the dragons were hatched in fire. That seems to meet both prerequisites, even if it isn't necessary for the weapon to be reforged, just saying.

[WearyTraveler]

16 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Nothing to forgive, not ignorant at all.  Thanks to Weary Traveler for the thorough answer.

 

Her loved one's souls infuses her dragons and the dragons were hatched in fire. That seems to meet both prerequisites, even if it isn't necessary for the weapon to be reforged, just saying.

You're welcome!

I think many options are possible, I lean toward Jon, but I can see why others lean toward Dany.  Time will tell (or the TV show will, even if Martin doesn't)

Edited May 19, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Gertrude]

44 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

Hizdahr zo Loraq can whine and cry all he wants that his dad didn't personally crucify 163 children, but there's no such thing as an innocent or kind slave owner. ...They were all guilty of continuing the system of slavery.

Agreed. Even if zo Loraq senior didn't mistreat his slaves, even if he didn't own any, he was still a master and benefited from the power and wealth the masters enjoyed because of the economy built on slave labor. Unless he was screaming at the other masters that what they were doing was wrong, was helping slaves escape and speaking out against it in the streets and halls of power, and spending his slave wealth to further that cause, he is guilty by association. Hizdar certainly didn't present him as such, so yeah - he's as guilty as the ones who nailed up the slaves. What was Robb's line to the guard who stood by when others killed the Lannister kids? "Oh, you only watched? You hang last so you can watch the others die first."

To bring it back to this episode, I'll agree that Dany is becoming a tyrant. A benevolant tyrant for the most part, but she has those tendencies. I disagree that she is going mad or will become the villain. In the books we have her thoughts to go by. I get that no one thinks of themselves as evil, but I don't see any signs of madness or tyrany in her. She has obsessions - prophecy, slavery - but no more so than any other person in her position might be. In the show it's much harder to tell for a few reasons. We don't have her inner thoughts to go by. I also don't think Emilia is a great actress so the thing about the creepy smile, well, I'm not sure if she was just trying to project confidence and strength or was actively going for creepy. I tend to think confidence, but like I said, it's hard to tell. Also, we're off books here and the story D&D are telling is only similar to Dany's story in the books. Using examples like feeding people to the dragons and burning the temple are hard to evalute because of that. I don't trust D&D to portray her state of mind accurately as compared to the books.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Gertrude

[Alapaki]

Hizdahr's father's complicity in the Mereenese slave trade and Dany's mass-murders are not mutually exclusive.  The slavers in Astapor were pieces of shit too (probably worse when you consider how they raised/bred their Unsullied).

But that wasn't the reason Dany slaughtered them.  She slaughtered them because she didn't want to pay the price they wanted for the number of Unsullied she wanted to buy.  So she entered a bargain she had no intention of keeping, and not only reneged on the bargain but slaughtered her trading partners and took back her payment in the process.

And if she'd had sufficient ships, I'm guessing she would've continued west without a care in the world for the slaves of Yunkai and Mereen.  She only had to confront the slavers in those cities because they stood in the way of her land-path west.

[DigitalCount]

I'm going to comment later at a computer, but Dany is in no way acting out of hatred for slavery; there are always other reasons that primarily motivate her, with the anti-slavery stuff putting a pretty face on it.

[Alapaki]

2 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I'm going to comment later at a computer, but Dany is in no way acting out of hatred for slavery; there are always other reasons that primarily motivate her, with the anti-slavery stuff putting a pretty face on it.

And lest someone bring up Dany;s ostensible freeing of the Unsullied and allowing them to "choose" whether or not to join her, she knew that their learned helplessness would keep them all in the fold.

"You have no families, no way to support yourselves, and you've been brainwashed into automatons who are incapable of having an independent thought.  But let's go through this kabuki so I can tell myself I'm your leader and not your master"

[kittykat]

On 5/18/2016 at 6:15 AM, nksarmi said:

Ned's dealings with both Littlefinger is the biggest area I do fault him in. His wife told him to trust LF so he did, but holy shit Ned think!  This man was so smitten with Cat that he tried to duel your brother for his hand. Only Cat's begging saved the man's life. That is a huge wound to pride. Of all the men in KL's Ned should have been leery of trusting and expecting potential betrayal from - it's LF.

The rest of it - I can accept as him being naïve or too noble for his own good. But he should have seen LF coming a mile away.

I'm currently rereading A Game of Thrones (parsing for subtext and nuance) and this is the short version of Ned and LF's relationship.

Ned: Dude I don't trust you.

LF: Good.  Smartest thing you've done so far.

Ned: But...my wife likes you so, I guess you're alright.

LF: That's nice bro but you should probably trust your instinct.

Ned: Yeah you're right.  But you've been helping me find Lord Arryn's murderer I feel that earns you a trust.

LF: No dude seriously, don't trust me.

Ned: And Varys thinks you're squirrely and I'm not so sure about him so...trust it is.

LF: Yeah I agree, don't trust him.  While you're at it don't trust me.

Ned: Wow you're gonna help me overthrow Joffrey for Stannis.  Righteous, let's do this.

LF:  How many times do I have to tell you nobody likes Stannis. *pulls Valyrian dagger* I TOLD YOU. NOT. TO. TRUST ME!!!

Sigh, stupid, forgetful Ned.

[lmsweb]

That was an awesome summary, KittyKat. I am getting looks from my coworker for laughing so hard.