S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[SabseH]

So, the scene where "a girl" is talking about how she used to be Arya Stark... she gets whacked for lies... why was there a whack for "4 brothers"? Arya always regarded Jon as a brother, Ned always insisted he was, everyone who knows him knows. Is the many-faced god so uptight as to be only concerned with full-blood relatives? Or does he/she know something we only suspect? 

And Thorne's last words... about how Jon 'betrayed the Watch' by letting in rapists and murderers (=wildlings). Considering the Watch is made up of people that are not a whole lot better, I chuckled a bit.   

[Pogojoco]

3 minutes ago, SabseH said:

So, the scene where "a girl" is talking about how she used to be Arya Stark... she gets whacked for lies... why was there a whack for "4 brothers"? Arya always regarded Jon as a brother, Ned always insisted he was, everyone who knows him knows. Is the many-faced god so uptight as to be only concerned with full-blood relatives? Or does he/she know something we only suspect? 

And Thorne's last words... about how Jon 'betrayed the Watch' by letting in rapists and murderers (=wildlings). Considering the Watch is made up of people that are not a whole lot better, I chuckled a bit.   

"4 brothers" indicates her Arya feelings. She says she has four because she has four in her heart. The actual fact, not taking into account how she was raised, how she feels towards Jon,  is three full brothers and one half. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Pogojoco

[GrailKing]

Just now, Pogojoco said:

There is no way. They are all dead. All we know is that Ned didn't have ill feelings towards Rhaeger. 

The past speak that's why Bran is there, he will learn everything so sayeth the TER.

[Hecate7]

On 5/9/2016 at 8:59 PM, snowblossom2 said:

What the hell? What about the North Remembers? That's a huge part of the books so why would turn over Rickon?!?! I am not happy. I thought maybe it was a way to infiltrate and kill Ramsey but that doesn't seem to be the case :( Show - you are ruining the North storyline

The North remembers. The North remembers the execution of Lord Karstark. The North remembers how Robb's direwolf terrified the Greatjon into aborting his rebellion and bending the knee to Robb. I suspect NONE of their "loyalty" was sincere, and that Roose was just the weakest link.

[Hecate7]

On 5/9/2016 at 9:15 PM, GrailKing said:

Head seemed damn small from when we last saw them.

I thought that, too. There may be a glimmer of hope there. Now you have me hoping this is all a ploy to infiltrate Winterfell, take out Ramsey, and restore the Starks.

[dr pepper]

On 5/9/2016 at 8:36 PM, GrailKing said:

The violence is an equal opportunist in this series.

Or did people forget: A man was castrated tortured and raped ( by 2 women and maybe some men),Baby boys were slaughtered ( depending on the media you follow Cersei or Joffery), about a few hundred men with 2 or 3 women( again book or show media)butchered at a wedding, at least 2 Northern Lords beheaded one in the first season a Southern Lord who died on a shitter by his son.

Two LC of the NW murdered by their own men one by a child who also killed a female with an arrow, same LC hanged them and beheaded another.

a Lord beheaded for vengence in using blood magic, another Lord knifed and his wife and child fed to the dogs an old woman skinned alive, a Khaleesi who burned a woman, a slave owner and a warlock, placed a man and woman in a vault to die, a Septon who killed men and woman in a brothel, A woman who sets up eunuchs  to be murdered.

a child beater being knifed by a female child, an old woman who poisoned a child at his own wedding the same said child shot a prostitute with a cross bow and though I can add more I'll just end with this: a child burned to death on her father's orders but the biggest outcry was for a (to me anyway)loved major character was raped but it was off screen.

A lot of violence, except the female gender didn't have the market on it as a matter of fact they were also participants.

You forgot Arya killing a man (not a Man) who bragged about deserting the Night's Watch.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, dr pepper said:

You forgot Arya killing a man (not a Man) who bragged about deserting the Night's Watch.

Not in show, but I did state I would forget some so we could add it, but I covered her with a certain KG.

[SFoster21]

52 minutes ago, screamin said:

Oh, I'm sure she initially went off with Rhaegar willingly - but to me, the Kingsguard being willing to kill Ned before they'll let him talk to his sister smacks more of them holding her prisoner under Rhaegar's orders than of Lyanna still being willingly a guest at the tower. I'd guess that the bloom went off the romance after the horrid consequences to Lyanna's father and brother, and at some time Rhaegar ordered his KG to keep her in the tower and let no one come near her - regardless of what her wishes might be on either of those points. I can envision charismatic, loony Rhaegar being sweet enough to initially seduce Lyanna and unyielding and obsessive enough in his pursuit of 'the third head of the dragon' not to let Lyanna out of his possession once things started going sour...

I think the guards were there to protect her and her baby and keep her safe from the war.

Ned was an odd exclusion, but from the screams, she was perhaps in labor and unable to receive visitors.

[dr pepper]

On 5/9/2016 at 8:51 PM, GrailKing said:

How did Tywin get ICE in the book I forgot myself?

Ned brought it with him to King's Landing. After his execution, the Lannisters kept it instead of sending it back to Winterfell.

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

Ned brought it with him to King's Landing. After his execution, the Lannisters kept it instead of sending it back to Winterfell.

Thanks, I forgot that.

[vesperholly]

I am going cross-eyed from all the discussion, but someone brought up the Waif reacting to Arya saying Walder Frey. I rewatched the scene and it wasn't a reaction to the name. When Arya is reciting her list, they are both sitting down facing each other. The Waif's reaction was to hearing Arya get up after being knocked down during their fight; the audio was still playing from the sitting down portion.

I thought the entire HOBAW scene was quite good this time - intercutting that discussion with the scenes of them fighting gave it more tension and it was almost rhythmic. We could have skipped all of the other scenes and just cut right to this one.

[dr pepper]

16 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The show's never provided a real clear sense of how widespread the faith of the Red God even is in the east.

In the books, it has to do with demonstrable power. Practitioners of the red god's faith have always had fire rituals. Recently, these rituals have started producing real fire. That's a great asset to proselytizing. Add that it is historically a minority sect, and it's already attractive to the common people. Now it looks as if the Red God is getting ready to burn the oppressors, it's really popular.

[dr pepper]

16 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I still don't know why Varys is in Meereen.  Tyrion can't go back without a regime change but Varys seems to be there just to have somebody to snark with.

In the books, Varys puts Tyrion on the boat but stays behind to take the active role he has avoided all his life, assassinating the last few left in the Lannister administration with any hope of holding things together. It didn't make sense for the showrunners to have him go onboard as well. Your explanation seems as good as any.

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, SFoster21 said:

I think the guards were there to protect her and her baby and keep her safe from the war.

Ned was an odd exclusion, but from the screams, she was perhaps in labor and unable to receive visitors.

Ned had just come from KL where Rhaegar's wife and children were brutally raped and murdered by Tywin who was excused for that crime I'm sure the 3 remaining Kingsguard heard. 

Nobody was getting near that baby if the Kingsguard could help it  

[dr pepper]

13 hours ago, glowbug said:

The idea that Varys' little birds can read and write and have no tongues comes from one of Arya's chapters in A Game of Thrones where she overhears Varys and Illyrio Mopatis talking. Here is the exact quote:

There may be other references as well. I'm not sure.

"if they kept their tongues" could mean "if they kept their mouths shut". cutting out tongues would be a lousy idea it would make his spies easier to identify.

[Oscirus]

14 hours ago, Paradigm14 said:

Well, what do you think Robert Baratheon would have done if he discovered that Lyanna had left intentionally and had married Rhaegar?

I assume you mean if Rhaegar bought his best fighters into the war with him, in which case, Robert would have gurgled no while swallowing blood and feeling the life seep out of him because he lost that battle. Which would've won the war for targaryans. And you know what else wouldn't have happened? Elia wouldn't have got raped/killed and his other kids wouldn't have gotten slaughtered.

The really funny thing is that the only reason that Robert didn't find out is because he had his maester tending to Selmy's wound so the only thing that kept her safe from "evil Robert" was luck.

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Tywin Lannister had Rhaeger's other children killed and Robert Baratheon rejoiced in their deaths. Robert hates Targaryens. He is still trying to kill the last ones in the first book, 13/14 years (more in the show) after he "won" the war. The threat to Lyanna's child was very real. I don't think he was that dumb or that arrogant. Protecting this child was something Lyanna believed in, too and it, in many ways, defined the rest of Ned's life.

He would've won the war and kept all of his children and his wife and his side piece out of danger if he had his best men with him going into battle. But Just going off of your quote, ole Rhaegar chose to leave his other two children out in the open with only one guard who's motives was dubious at best knowing that their lives were in danger.  If I go by that, not only is he stupid and arrogant but he's also callous as shit.

[Oscirus]

On rewatch, my only problem with Tyrion is that the fact that he and Varys are already getting things done makes dany look incompetent. Sure she's probably eventually going to lead the dothraki army to quell the rebellion, but still, she's coming off as a one trick pony when it comes to ruling.

 At least I can see an end game forming for Mereen. More on that in speculation.

I actually liked the Arya scene watching her transform into a nobody was frightening.  But if the 2 truths and a lie game played by Sophie and Maiise and Arya's list is true that must mean that

Lady Stonehart is actually appearing this season since there's no way that Arya gets to Cersei

. But she could also be lying about her list to these people.

The Ramsay scene was eye opening. Admittedly Rickon in the hands of Ramsey is scary. But the fact that he's not even inspiring respect from his perspective allies is really telling.  Umber threw Rickon to Ramsey like you throw meat to a dog. Roose's words are coming to fruition.

Tommen is so out of his depth. Cersei shouldn't allow him to go anywhere by himself. I didn't even realize there was a fart joke until I read about it (so embarrassed).

I actually feel sorry for Olly. I don't imagine how I'd react if I was forced to congregate with my parent's killers. Davos would've been good in Mereen since he seems to need to follow an inspiring person.

[Kate87]

6 hours ago, SFoster21 said:

I think the guards were there to protect her and her baby and keep her safe from the war.

Ned was an odd exclusion, but from the screams, she was perhaps in labor and unable to receive visitors.

I didn't have a problem with them excluding Ned. At that point, Ned was supporting a man who just killed the heir they promised to protect (and who by most other accounts was well regarded by the people). My guess is that Lyanna was in labor when Ned arrived or near death (crying/screaming sounds), thereby making it difficult for her to refute the accepted story of her kidnapping. Had they let Ned & Co see her, they ran the risk of Jon being killed on the spot (just like Rhaegar's other children). To me, until they knew she and the baby were safe and she made the choice to talk to Ned, they had no reason to let him into the ToJ. 

5 hours ago, dr pepper said:

In the books, Varys puts Tyrion on the boat but stays behind to take the active role he has avoided all his life, assassinating the last few left in the Lannister administration with any hope of holding things together. It didn't make sense for the showrunners to have him go onboard as well. 

Varys in KL would have made that plot so much more interesting! I'm getting extremely bored with that storyline, mainly becauce the characters (excluding the High Sparrow) lack depth/unknown motivations. Varys vs. High Sparrow would have been fun to watch IMO.  

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

Here's the issue with a story this vast being portrayed in 10 hours a year. There is no time to portray opposing political forces, or the social context, in Slaver's Bay, in any depth at all. Thus, for years now, we have a few minutes of expository dialogue  a week, from one perspective and now it's really, really, getting forced.

I said years ago that Tywin Lannister was the character that glued this story together on television, especially as well acted as he was,  and the writers would find it very difficult to make things anywhere near as compelling once he was dead. I wish I had been wrong. 

I agree completely. I'd also include Joffery as a character that held the story together initially. With Joffrey and Tywin, there was a clear reason for regime change; I feel like that reason has gone away now to a great degree. There are too many characters in seemingly unconnected locations for just ten hours a year to cover (disclaimer: I skimmed the books because I couldn't deal with the level of details GRRM uses in the books -  love the story, hate the amount of time it's taking to tell it). I hope that Jon (even though I find him whiny) can begin to fill Tywin's role by linking some of the plot together (Wall + Winterfell, etc.).

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I really liked Smalljon's actor: loads of charisma, great presence, really connected with his dialogue. He seemed to "ground" Iwan Rheon in the scene and keep him from getting too silly. Great stuff.

Loved Smalljon! To me, the actor nailed what the personality I'd expect someone in his position to have. I  liked this episode because it called BS on several stupid things, notably Roose being "poisoned" and "Robert Strong". I'm really worried Ramsay is going to end up sitting on the Iron Throne; I don't like how much power he's gaining lately, given how bat shit crazy all the North must know he is at this point. D & D are just giving him too much of storyline, he needs to begin dying (slowly, painfully, but without the chance for survival).

Regarding Rickon, honestly he's being gone so long don't really care about him. I hope Ramsay doesn't harm him but after last week, nothing will suprise me with him. I hope Osha being there with Rickon means he will have a network protecting him but I doubt it based on how his family has fared thus far. If Smalljon's attitude is shared and the northern houses are more concerned about protecting their lands than "remembering," so long Rickon.   

18 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

What, is that Ice Prince guy taking a vacation? Jamaica maybe?

Nice to see the Queen of Thorns, but I think she'd be doing a lot more than sitting on the small council to free her grandchildren. At the very least she would ally with Cersei and the Lannisters to take out the Faith Militant. 

Yes! I know it's only three episodes in but had they cut Arya's scenes down and eliminated Sam and Dany, Olenna could have given the KL plot more depth. I hardly remember that Margaery is in prison (and I like her!). I get that her continued imprisonment is meant to show Tommen's weakness/High Sparrow's growning power but it seems like there should be more people speaking up when the Queen gets locked up. I want to see the Queen of Thorns meet some Faith Militants and show the Lannisters how one deals with those who mess with your house.  

Regarding the WW...  no idea why no one in Westeros is paying attention to anything north of the Wall. Given everything that's happened at Castle Black, you'd like people in Westeros would be a bit more concerened. Maybe the endgame is that the Wildlings will takeover Westeros, they do seem to be the smartest lately since they're moving south... 

I was so upset that Jon didn't warg into Ghost! I feel like they cut things (Stark children as wargs, Lady Stoneheart, etc.) to add more shock value/uniqueness to Bran's and Jon's respective stories and in doing so lost a lot in terms of potential storylines for Arya and Jon.  

Overall, I really did like this episode. I feel like some of the stroylines are moving a bit faster. I enjoyed Kevan walking out on Jamie and Cersei (I pictured the ghost of Tywin cursing his children for their miscalculation). Maisie Williams was really good (just a dull plot). I'm liking the High Sparrow as a villain, likability makes him far more powerful IMO than Ramsay could ever hope to be. 

As much as I wanted to see it, I'm happy R+L=J wasn't confirmed. My hope is that Jon will take up a leadership role in his own right, rather than because of who his father was, and then find out the truth. I thought we saw a lot of Ned in Jon at the end of the episode which was nice. His last line was perfect! 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Kate87

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

He would've won the war and kept all of his children and his wife and his side piece out of danger if he had his best men with him going into battle.

Two guys (or three, in the books) would not likely have made all that big a difference on the Trident, however good they were as swordsmen.

Edited May 10, 2016 by SeanC

[snowblossom2]

7 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

The North remembers. The North remembers the execution of Lord Karstark. The North remembers how Robb's direwolf terrified the Greatjon into aborting his rebellion and bending the knee to Robb. I suspect NONE of their "loyalty" was sincere, and that Roose was just the weakest link.

Except that's not the North Remembers storyline in the books 

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I suspect NONE of their "loyalty" was sincere, and that Roose was just the weakest link.

That's literally the exact opposite of the story.  The Northern love for the Starks is deep and abiding -- that's why thousands of them march through a blizzard to rescue "Ned's girl".

Edited May 10, 2016 by SeanC

[paramitch]

This wasn't a bad episode. But I'm still frustrated with the storytelling. The bad characters are the ones with all the autonomy while the good ones are captive, abused or powerless, and sometimes in ways that feel forced or artificial to me.

I did love some little moments -- the initial sounds of breathing, and not Jon's breaths (as expected), but Davos's shocked breaths at the sight of Jon returned (the door being open was a nice touch too -- he'd obviously heard Jon gasp and burst back into the room).

And simply for Pryce's acting, I loved the High Sparrow with Tommen -- winning his sympathy, getting him to share the bench, to confide. So smart. And I loved every scene with Max Von Sydow (who hasn't changed in three decades, basically), even if I wish the Tower of Joy would just get to Lyanna already for the least shocking reveal ever.

But I was frustrated with Tyrion's scene because it was such a wasted opportunity! They could have actually TALKED about something. I'd think that Tyrion, Grey Worm, and Missandei might have some actual genuinely interesting things to say about, you know, power, enslavement, freedom, kingdoms, life, or even love. Instead, Tyrion just made some wisecracks. On a show in which every minute of attention paid to a plot is at a premium, this felt like an exorbitant waste.

However, I did love Varys's questioning of the woman. Such a superb scene for Conleth Hill, and it also was a great reminder of what a fantastic statesman Varys is. Instead of torturing and killing the woman for useless information, he got the information he needed, made an ally, and quietly gave her exactly what she wanted in exchange -- a way out.

On 5/9/2016 at 7:11 PM, stillshimpy said:

No.  Just no.  I reject this narrative!! That was not Shaggy Dog.  Osha would need to be carried in there in forty seven pieces before she would let ANY of that go down.  The part of Lord Manderley is now being played by Lord Umber, the part of Shaggy Dog was played by some unfortunate wolf.

This is my take as well. Because the alternative has me so enraged that at this point I'd just feel like the whole damn story is trolling us. So that's what I'm gonna believe until otherwise. (Drinks heavily)

On 5/9/2016 at 7:21 PM, jcin617 said:

Something tells me the thing with Rickon is a set-up.

(Pauses drinking) Please let this be the case! The poor Starks, man. Never a break.

On 5/9/2016 at 7:42 PM, VCRTracking said:

I think his bitchface season that go me really hating him but I remember that he saw his parents killed by Wildlings, one of whom was Ygritte.

Not only did he see his parents viciously murdered in front of him, but that stupid overacting Thenn then gave a speech about how DELICIOUS his parents were going to taste. So despite the fact that I've never reconciled that Wildling raid as something that actually made sense, I do think Ollie had a reason to pout. I just hated how far he chose to take it.

On 5/9/2016 at 7:51 PM, stillshimpy said:

I think Arya's scenes exist to give us all processing time for the actually interesting developments.  

I could give a flying fig about Jon Snow or Kit Harrington's bits and parts. but what I did like was that he is just fucking DONE with that Night's Watch.  The "My watch has ended" earned a "hell yeah, it has" from me. 

Osha would have died protecting Rickon rather than let him be taken back there if it wasn't part of a plan.  Hell, she'd have killed him herself (a la Luwin) before she'd have let him be turned over to someone known for SKINNING people.  

I'm torn on Arya's scenes because I like her as a character, and I love Jaqen 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc. But again the message just feels so repetitive and heavy-handed. Do we really have to spend so much time watching them beat a little girl into relinquishing her identity?I get that she's willing to do this for power, but it still feels twisted.

I don't always find Jon all that interesting, but he totally had a mic drop moment there with "My watch has ended," and the subsequent walkout. Just a sensational moment.

I absolutely agree that Osha would never let them capture Rickon with her alive, unless it was some kind of feint. I just think she would never. I think her loyalty is hard-won, but fierce and unblinking. 

On 5/9/2016 at 8:55 PM, Avaleigh said:

I was talking about book Osha who fooled Bran into thinking that she had sided with Theon. The book Osha who decided to side with Robb when she realized that she had no choice unless she wanted to die. I can totally see her siding against the Starks only to think that she'll be able to change sides again just as she's always done. It isn't that hard for me to believe that she would raise her hands and yield in order to save her own skin and think of a better plan later. 

ETA: The fact that she slept with Theon is proof enough to me that she'd do just about anything to save her own skin. 

But Book-Osha wasn't fooling Bran in order to gauge the wind and change sides. She specifically bent the knee to Theon in order to save Bran (with TV-Osha going so far as to sleep with Theon in order to do so). She pretty specifically was shown to have done this in order to save the Stark boys -- which she went on to do, at considerable danger to herself. 

So I'm having trouble with this idea that Osha is constantly changing sides. In both the book and show, she bonded pretty quickly with Bran, was honest with him about her life and beliefs (even telling him she had killed a member of the Night's Watch), and attempted to warn Robb that he was "going the wrong way." I don't remember a single instance in which Osha actually betrayed the Stark boys after giving them her friendship.

On 5/9/2016 at 9:08 PM, Eyes High said:

I rolled my eyes at Varys' affronted "I would NEVER hurt children" when the prostitute suggested he was threatening her child, when Book Varys cut out his little birds' tongues. (Ditto for TV Varys apparently bribing his birds with sweets and not removing their tongues. Whatever.)

Quite liked Smalljon Umber's zero tolerance for Ramsay and Karstark's bullshit...although I wasn't thrilled that apparently TV Karstark is a pedophile ("nice and young...the way Karstark likes them"). Can't he just be an asshole, like most of the male book Karstarks? Does he have to be a pedophile, too?

I like the fact that the show has removed some of the book implications about Varys, which always irritated me as being over the top anyway. I vastly prefer TV-Varys, and the actor is fantastic, so I think those changes are an improvement. I vastly prefer TV-Tyrion, as well. (Just don't get me started on the wrongs the show has done poor Jaime, however.)

I do agree with you though on Karstark -- I rolled my eyes the moment he was revealed as a pedophile. Of course he is. It's the Game of Thrones shorthand.

On 5/9/2016 at 9:18 PM, Avaleigh said:

I won't be surprised at all if Osha is playing along to save her own skin just as she's always done. Rickon wasn't responsible for saving her life at all. Hopefully she's become fond of him since they've spent so much time together. 

I'm confused on this. We saw Osha try to save herself very early on, when she was a prisoner of the Starks. But pretty quickly, after she began to form a friendship with Bran (and developed a respect for him as the "little lord"), she was no longer in chains and pretty visibly able to escape anytime she wanted.

We've also had plenty of private scenes away from the boys that showed her as having real feelings of love and loyalty for them, both with Luwin, with Meera and Jojen, and with Theon -- if she was intent on saving her own skin all along, she certainly didn't have to hide and save the boys, and then feed and care for them on their long journey North as well. She has been free to go anywhere and do anything for a long, long time now. Yet her choice has always been to serve Bran, and to help Rickon.

So I will seriously never believe that Osha's presence as a captive is anything but some sort of ruse or tragic misstep (I definitely can't interpret it as evidence that she simply didn't find Rickon worth fighting for).

Quote

I love the idea of Shaggydog still being alive and eventually (hopefully) being attached to Sansa. 

While I desperately want Shaggydog to be alive (yep! still drinking!), I don't think it's feasible to imagine he would ever attach himself to Sansa, since the whole thing is that each wolf seems to 'match' its owner/warg partner. So as he's Rickon's wolf and half-wild and shaggy, just as Rickon always is, I just can't see him partnering up with Sansa.  I do think it would be interesting if Nymeria ever met Sansa again, however.

Edited May 10, 2016 by paramitch
stupid apostrophes

[WebosFritos]

So I’ve been catching up with the show lately because I heard things might finally happen with the White Walkers.

After this episode I think the North clearly doesn’t remember and they seem as stupid as the Night’s Watch. Maybe they were just waiting for someone to get rid of the Starks but it makes you wonder why they went to war against the Lannisters and proclaimed Robb King in the North when it probably cost them lots of men. The Umbers don’t make any sense. They’ve presumably had Rickon for a while and never brought him to Roose but finally decided that Ramsay would help them? And they’ve apparently decided that turning in the last Stark heir to the remaining Boltons was a good way to avoid a potential wildling's invasion led by Jon? If his half brother comes marching south, it makes more sense to me to keep Rickon close. He’s a good bargaining chip. Now they won’t have any leverage left and they are counting on Ramsay keeping his word. And why did they let Osha live? They hate the wildlings and she has no value to them, Jon, the North or even Ramsay. And if it's all a ruse it makes even less sense.

1 hour ago, Kate87 said:

Regarding the WW...  no idea why no one in Westeros is paying attention to anything north of the Wall. Given everything that's happened at Castle Black, you'd like people in Westeros would be a bit more concerened. Maybe the endgame is that the Wildlings will takeover Westeros, they do seem to be the smartest lately since they're moving south...

After what happened at Hardhome, it’s clear that any man they leave behind is one too many if they want to have any chance of beating the White Walkers. I don’t know why some in the Night’s Watch still refuse to see that. Maybe it’s because most of them are cowards, thieves and rapists. Hopefully now that Jon is leaving the Wall he’s going to be able to bring more people together to fight the real enemy.

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I actually feel sorry for Olly. I don't imagine how I'd react if I was forced to congregate with my parent's killers. Davos would've been good in Mereen since he seems to need to follow an inspiring person.

I don’t feel sorry for Olly. Jon didn’t kill his parents and he took out his anger on the wrong person. I would have felt a lot sorrier for him if he was hanged because he had killed a wildling.

[Cherpumple]

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

OK, as for Sansa your eyes and ears had to be closed or covered, Joffery is gloating about Robb and Cat's death and how he is going to present the wolf head or skin to Sansa, Tyrion said Sansa's not Joff's to torment any longer, cut to Sansa in her room by a window Tyrion enters says Sansa! zoom in tears are falling like rain.

A scene Shae is trying to get Sansa to eat, she tells Tyrion she needs to eat, Tyrion trys to talk to her, Sansa describes through tears how she lies awake at night thinking how Robb and her mother died, sewing Greywinds head on his body and cutting her mother's throat to the bone and the body tossed into a river.

They were referring to the moment where she was actually told about it.

Thank you, SeanC, I was referring to the actual moment where Sansa was told about the Red Wedding. Of course she found out about it (my eyes and ears were definitely not covered to all those scenes mentioned), but for me, seeing her silently crying by the window and acting generally sullen afterwards was not at all satisfying, and did not meet the gravity of the situation by a long shot. I know that Sansa's character is difficult to change from book to screen because she tries so hard to remain outwardly impassive, but to be honest, I chalk much of my disappointment with her screen version to Sophie's limited acting abilities. She's a lovely girl, but I just don't think she's a very strong actress, and the post-RW scenes with her were particularly disappointing to me.

[nodorothyparker]

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I said years ago that Tywin Lannister was the character that glued this story together on television, especially as well acted as he was,  and the writers would find it very difficult to make things anywhere near as compelling once he was dead. I wish I had been wrong. 

I agree completely. I'd also include Joffery as a character that held the story together initially. With Joffrey and Tywin, there was a clear reason for regime change; I feel like that reason has gone away now to a great degree. 

 

Still can't figure out how to make the make the quote in a quote thing work properly.

I'll agree with this and I'll add Roose to the list, which goes beyond just being completely over Super Ramsay and missing the silky smooth menace that Michael McElhatton brought to the role.  Finally getting the North Remembers storyline if we are getting it is weakened by Roose's absence.  He's the man who double crossed their king by cutting a deal with their enemies and then stabbed him in the heart at a wedding.  He's the one they're then expected to bend the knee to as their new warden of the North sitting in their dead lord paramount's castle.  That's why the idea of the long burning resentment and vengeance of The North Remembers is so poignant in the books.  He personally did this to them and their families.  Ramsay at this point is just a psychopathic bastard sitting in Winterfell.

That's a larger problem I have with the series as whole in both forms though.  By the time anyone is in any position to try to set things right or mete out some much deserved justice, all the perpetrators will have been long since dead.  None of them have to live with the carnage they created.  And if Dany and her dragons ever do get around to showing up, all the hard work will have already been done for her.  Nearly everyone who bears any responsibility for what happened to her family is gone too.

Edited May 10, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

The actor playing Tommen's voice really sounds a lot like the Jack Gleeson, the actor who played Joffrey.

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

Thank you, SeanC, I was referring to the actual moment where Sansa was told about the Red Wedding. Of course she found out about it (my eyes and ears were definitely not covered to all those scenes mentioned), but for me, seeing her silently crying by the window and acting generally sullen afterwards was not at all satisfying, and did not meet the gravity of the situation by a long shot. I know that Sansa's character is difficult to change from book to screen because she tries so hard to remain outwardly impassive, but to be honest, I chalk much of my disappointment with her screen version to Sophie's limited acting abilities. She's a lovely girl, but I just don't think she's a very strong actress, and the post-RW scenes with her were particularly disappointing to me.

I agree that not showing her actually learning about it was a mistake.

I completely disagree about the issue being Sophie, though.  For me, she's the main thing keeping the show's version of Sansa afloat even as the writers routinely undermine or ignore the character.  I'm sure she'd have been terrific in the scene described in the books where she'd told about it; the writers of the show simply weren't interested in Sansa's perspective, and the result is ironically that the moment is far more Tyrion-centric than the moment in the books even though the latter is actually described through Tyrion's POV.

[PatsyandEddie]

On May 9, 2016 at 11:08 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Considering what the Targaryens did to the Starks, it didn't bother me.  But it seems very unlike Ned to brag on himself, and a lie at that.

Right?  Killing your dad - whatever.  Harm another hair on a Stark head - Death.Now.  This is me:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UceGF3M56bE

I don't think Ned would have bragged about anything. IMO he chose to remain silent while others told the stories. Some may have seen HR as a coward for stabbing AD in the back but this was war. HR helped destroy the enemy. Shit happens. 

Awesome clip! Thanks for the laugh! Same here. 

[Tikichick]

I understand that we've been pushed to accept Olly went over to the dark side and betrayed his friend, however I have to remember he was a child, a child who watched his parents not only murdered, but eaten by the Thenns as well.  Whenever they showed them on the screen I got the same feeling I get watching Ramsey's escapades or when Joffrey was playing with the crossbow or toying with Sansa and Tyrion.  Honestly I feel like the show is burning me out with that completely out of control malevolence and evil.  As bad as Tywin and Roose were and as much of a threat they may have been to some of the characters I care about, I at least felt like there was a fair fight possible -- unless you accepted a wedding invitation, of course. ; )

[mac123x]

9 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

"4 brothers" indicates her Arya feelings. She says she has four because she has four in her heart. The actual fact, not taking into account how she was raised, how she feels towards Jon,  is three full brothers and one half. 

It's also a bit of foreshadowing.  I noticed that the specifically didn't have her correct it to "3 brothers and one half-brother", which would also be a lie, though Arya wouldn't know it was.

 

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Osha and Rickon are in Winterfell as some sort of scheme, but given how much the show runners love Ramsey, I would expect that the scheme will fail.  They did it last season with the old woman who tried to help Sansa.  They love Ramsey so much that I'm kind of expecting if he does die, it'll be to something out of anyone's control, like a slip in the bathtub.  Can't let any of the protagonists get one up over SuperRamsey.

[DigitalCount]

I understand that this is only tangentially related to this episode, but this episode brought it to the forefront, and I think maybe a helpful suggestion might be...helpful?

Obviously we can post in the no book talk thread, but it feels like it's not that book talk has crept in, but that recent events have emboldened us re: RLJ. While I understand that the show has given us more hints, the book and book culture gave us a reason to look for those hints, and I think that's what people are objecting to. What is being said? What isn't being said? Why is it being said now? These are questions that a savvy non-bookwalker could think of upon reading a post in the no-book thread. I think it behooves us to ask the same questions when reading over our own posts, especially those in defense of other posts we've made.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I'm sorry that this is only slightly related to the episode, but I wanted to say it where other people would read it.

[GrailKing]

55 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

Thank you, SeanC, I was referring to the actual moment where Sansa was told about the Red Wedding. Of course she found out about it (my eyes and ears were definitely not covered to all those scenes mentioned), but for me, seeing her silently crying by the window and acting generally sullen afterwards was not at all satisfying, and did not meet the gravity of the situation by a long shot. I know that Sansa's character is difficult to change from book to screen because she tries so hard to remain outwardly impassive, but to be honest, I chalk much of my disappointment with her screen version to Sophie's limited acting abilities. She's a lovely girl, but I just don't think she's a very strong actress, and the post-RW scenes with her were particularly disappointing to me.

It's director's decision though, in this case they went by the book, Sansa doesn't show her emotions publicly, especially in front Lannisters, in book Tyrion is telling us how she reacted when he told her as he was laying in bed as she was sleeping, before he slithers away to meet Shae at the dragon heads.

As I said below? the writers are damned if they do and damned if they didn't; as for Sophie's acting, even though she nailed that particular scene to me it was in her second year? she has improved much since then.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I do agree with you though on Karstark -- I rolled my eyes the moment he was revealed as a pedophile. Of course he is. It's the Game of Thrones shorthand.

I'm no huge fan of Karstark, but I assumed that was just the Smalljon taking a piss.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

It's director's decision though, in this case they went by the book, Sansa doesn't show her emotions publicly, especially in front Lannisters, in book Tyrion is telling us how she reacted when he told her as he was laying in bed as she was sleeping, before he slithers away to meet Shae at the dragon heads.

It wasn't the director's decision, though.  They didn't go by the book there; in the book, we do get her being told about it.

And show!Sansa absolutely shows her emotions publicly.  Heck, she does it in that very scene.

[GrailKing]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It wasn't the director's decision, though.  They didn't go by the book there; in the book, we do get her being told about it.

And show!Sansa absolutely shows her emotions publicly.  Heck, she does it in that very scene.

where?, I remember Tyrion telling us as he's laying in bed, can't remember when GRRM had her told in public to let us see it.

SOS chapter 53, Tyrion hears of the deaths; Lord Tywin expects that the remaining insurgents will be ready to yield by spring, also pointing out that the North will eventually go to the son of Tyrion and Sansa. In this context, he reminds Tyrion that Joffrey is not the only one who must take a maidenhead. Tyrion asks his father acidly when he believes his wife to be most fertile; before or after he tells her that the Lannisters have killed her mother and brother.

Tyrion # 58 SOS: Tyrion dressed himself in darkness, listening to his wife's soft breathing from the bed they shared. She dreams, he thought, when Sansa murmured something softly - a name, perhaps, though it was too faint to say - and turned onto her side. As man and wife they shared a marriage bed, but that was all. Even her tears she hoards to herself.

He had expected anguish and anger when he told her of her brother's death, but Sansa's face had remained so still that for a moment he feared she had not understood. It was only later, with a heavy oaken door between them, that he heard her sobbing. Tyrion had considered going to her then, to offer what comfort he could. No, he had to remind himself, she will not look for solace from a Lannister. The most he could do was to shield her from the uglier details of the Red Wedding as they came down from the Twins. Sansa did not need to hear how her brother's body had been hacked and mutilated, he decided; nor how her mother's corpse had been dumped naked into the Green Fork in a savage mockery of House Tully's funeral customs. The last thing the girl needed was more fodder for her nightmares.

It was not enough, though. He had wrapped his cloak around her shoulders and sworn to protect her, but that was as cruel a jape as the crown the Freys had placed atop the head of Robb Stark's direwolf after they'd sewn it onto his headless corpse. Sansa knew that as well. The way she looked at him, her stiffness when she climbed into their bed . . . when he was with her, never for an instant could he forget who he was, or what he was. No more than she did. She still went nightly to the godswood to pray, and Tyrion wondered if she were praying for his death. She had lost her home, her place in the world, and everyone she had ever loved or trusted. Winter is coming, warned the Stark words, and truly it had come for them with a vengeance. But it is high summer for House Lannister. So why am I so bloody cold?

Where were we shown before these chapters of her reaction, and who told her before Tyrion?
 

Edited May 10, 2016 by GrailKing

[Clanstarling]

23 minutes ago, mac123x said:

It's also a bit of foreshadowing.  I noticed that the specifically didn't have her correct it to "3 brothers and one half-brother", which would also be a lie, though Arya wouldn't know it was.

 

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Osha and Rickon are in Winterfell as some sort of scheme, but given how much the show runners love Ramsey, I would expect that the scheme will fail.  They did it last season with the old woman who tried to help Sansa.  They love Ramsey so much that I'm kind of expecting if he does die, it'll be to something out of anyone's control, like a slip in the bathtub.  Can't let any of the protagonists get one up over SuperRamsey.

IIRC, Arya did amend her statement to 3 brothers and a half brother.

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It wasn't the director's decision, though.  They didn't go by the book there; in the book, we do get her being told about it.

And show!Sansa absolutely shows her emotions publicly.  Heck, she does it in that very scene.

That's not public, it's private behind the door of their apartment.

The only difference is someone told her before Tyrion, who?

The rest is as said in book, behind an oaken door he hears her sobbing.

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

That's not public, it's private behind the door of their apartment.

The only difference is someone told her before Tyrion, who?

The rest is as said in book, behind an oaken door he hears her sobbing.

It is in "public", because Tyrion is there.  The writers have no issue having her confide in Tyrion (or, really, almost any other character), pal around with him, cry in front of him, etc.

That's really not the same, in my view.  In the book we get the scene where she learns, and Tyrion's description gives us what she's doing behind the door.  In the show, we don't see her learn it, and then the camera leaves with Tyrion.  The moment in the books is a small scene, but it feels very much about Sansa to me.

Edited May 10, 2016 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I agree that not showing her actually learning about it was a mistake.

I completely disagree about the issue being Sophie, though.  For me, she's the main thing keeping the show's version of Sansa afloat even as the writers routinely undermine or ignore the character.  I'm sure she'd have been terrific in the scene described in the books where she'd told about it; the writers of the show simply weren't interested in Sansa's perspective, and the result is ironically that the moment is far more Tyrion-centric than the moment in the books even though the latter is actually described through Tyrion's POV.

Everything seems Tyrion centric with Dinklage in the role, I wished they showed more of his evil character, in stead of Saint Tyrion.

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That's really not the same, in my view.  In the book we get the scene where she learns, and Tyrion's description gives us what she's doing behind the door.  In the show, we don't see her learn it, and then the camera leaves with Tyrion.  The moment in the books is a small scene, but it feels very much about Sansa to me.

Public to me is like at court where she's told in front of everyone, or outside on traitor's walk, in a private chamber is not public, it's private, hence a term private quarters.

Our views may be different on this scene; but Sophie brought out Sansa as GRRM envisioned her at least to me.

ETA: yeah the writers wanted everything in season 5 and beyond for her.

Edited May 10, 2016 by GrailKing

[Sunnydayman]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

It's also a bit of foreshadowing.  I noticed that the specifically didn't have her correct it to "3 brothers and one half-brother", which would also be a lie, though Arya wouldn't know it was.

 

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Osha and Rickon are in Winterfell as some sort of scheme, but given how much the show runners love Ramsey, I would expect that the scheme will fail.  They did it last season with the old woman who tried to help Sansa.  They love Ramsey so much that I'm kind of expecting if he does die, it'll be to something out of anyone's control, like a slip in the bathtub.  Can't let any of the protagonists get one up over SuperRamsey.

How would the Faceless Men know how many brothers Arya has?  Did they mean living brothers or have they been speaking to GRRM?

[Alapaki]

Quote

IIRC, Arya did amend her statement to 3 brothers and a half brother.

I'm embarrassed to admit that the whole Arya scene was disorienting to me with all of the interspersed short flashbacks.

But . . . my wife suggested something which may be totally off the wall, but here goes: Maybe in that scene it was the Waif, having assumed Arya's face, who was answering the questions, and Arya testing/correcting her until she got the biography right.

I realize there are many reasons why that wouldn't be the case, primarily because we haven't seen the faceless men/women having the ability to assume the visages of living people.  And I'm not endorsing the theory, just tossing it out there.  

But, otherwise, either I was zoning out (a definite possibility) or I failed to see the reason for Arya to be answering questions about her background in one scene only to revert the "a girl has no name" routine with Jaquen before being given her eyes back.

What if that scene, where Jaquen gives Arya the drink from the well, actually came first and Arya regained her sight but then died, with the waif or Jaquen assuming her face?  [frankly that might be more interesting than what D&D are doing with the story thus far].

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Kate87 said:

I didn't have a problem with them excluding Ned. At that point, Ned was supporting a man who just killed the heir they promised to protect (and who by most other accounts was well regarded by the people). My guess is that Lyanna was in labor when Ned arrived or near death (crying/screaming sounds), thereby making it difficult for her to refute the accepted story of her kidnapping. Had they let Ned & Co see her, they ran the risk of Jon being killed on the spot (just like Rhaegar's other children).

The Kingsguard trusted Ned to parley like a gentleman when he stuck his sword in the ground, instead of taking advantage to attack him. The offer could have been made to Ned to allow him to speak to his sister if he agreed to disarm himself and enter the tower alone on the KG's famous word of honor that he would be unharmed. Being in labor is not an excuse, women can talk between contractions. The fact remains that the Kingsguard decided to kill Lyanna's brother - something she almost certainly would have preferred they not do. This kind of means they don't take her preferences about the life and death of her nearest and dearest into the least account - which to me points to her being a prisoner of the KG by that point.

 

Quote

To me, until they knew she and the baby were safe and she made the choice to talk to Ned, they had no reason to let him into the ToJ.

No reason? The entire country has fallen into the hands of the Usurper. Ned is the only relative of Lyanna's left with any political power. Kill him, and an army will come to find out what happened to their lord. However cool Dayne looks with two swords, he can't defeat a whole army. Wouldn't it be better to at least TRY to talk to Ned and see if he can be persuaded to help them escape or hide instead? If after letting him talk to Lyanna they decide his word can't be trusted, nothing would stop them from leading him out again, handing him his sword back with a bow, and proceeding to fight to the death. IMO, the fact that they didn't even bother trying shows the KG had decided to do a Heroic Last Stand grimly following the last orders of the deceased Rhaegar, ("Guard her and let no one near her until I return," probably) no matter how hopeless how they are.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Two guys (or three, in the books) would not likely have made all that big a difference on the Trident, however good they were as swordsmen.

If one of them had been riding besides Rhaegar when Robert came up to fight him to the death, it would have made all the difference in the world.

[Alapaki]

Quote

The fact remains that the Kingsguard decided to kill Lyanna's brother - something she almost certainly would have preferred they not do. This kind of means they don't take her preferences about the life and death of her nearest and dearest into the least account - which to me points to her being a prisoner of the KG by that point.

Quote

 IMO, the fact that they didn't even bother trying shows the KG had decided to do a Heroic Last Stand grimly following the last orders of the deceased Rhaegar, ("Guard her and let no one near her until I return," probably) no matter how hopeless how they are.

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If one of them had been riding besides Rhaegar when Robert came up to fight him to the death, it would have made all the difference in the world

I agree that these facts all point to the KG being there to protect the child rather than Lyanna.

But the question I have is why Dayne wished Ned "good luck in the wars to come"?  Was that just a catch-phrase for the afterlife?  Or did Dayne know that he stood a good chance of dying on that plain and that whatever Ned would find in the Tower would lead to further wars?  Was Dayne assuming that Ned would protect Lyanna's child and go to war with Robert over him/her?  

[Tikichick]

Maybe it's as simple as they were laboring under the belief that Ned would never let his sister's connection to a Targaryen stand and therefore were doing what they believed necessary to protect it, while Ned was acting to free his sister from the Targaryens.  Neither side had the true understanding of the realities until Ned actually spoke to Lyanna.

Anybody else have any feeling about Melisandre's attempts to resurrect Jon specifically including his hair in order to allow Kit to cut his hair in an attempt to throw the audience off by having him demonstrably walking around with a haircut to prove he was off the show?

[Jazzy24]

11 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I agree that these facts all point to the KG being there to protect the child rather than Lyanna.

But the question I have is why Dayne wished Ned "good luck in the wars to come"?  Was that just a catch-phrase for the afterlife?  Or did Dayne know that he stood a good chance of dying on that plain and that whatever Ned would find in the Tower would lead to further wars?  Was Dayne assuming that Ned would protect Lyanna's child and go to war with Robert over him/her?  

Well the throne had just changed dynasties and that brings wars so that's what this Dayne was hinting at. 

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

...I chalk much of my disappointment with her screen version to Sophie's limited acting abilities. She's a lovely girl, but I just don't think she's a very strong actress, and the post-RW scenes with her were particularly disappointing to me.

Agreed. I'd rather they'd cared more about talent than looks when hiring Sophie, although to be fair, when the kids were being hired it was hard to know which of them would develop as actors and which of them wouldn't. Nina Gold's awesome, but she's not omniscient. Also, the fans cried bloody murder about all the actresses who are supposed to play beautiful characters not being pretty enough--Lena Headey, Emilia Clarke, Natalie Dormer, Michelle Fairley, etc.--so I can only imagine the hue and outcry if TV Sansa were played by someone not as beautiful.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

I agree that not showing her actually learning about it was a mistake.

I completely disagree about the issue being Sophie, though.  

All of the actors on GOT have had to deal with less-than-stellar writing at one point or another. The good ones can sell it; heck, the really good ones can make it sound like the finest poetry (look what Jonathan Pryce did with the High Sparrow's word salad blathering this episode, or the way Iain Glen can give a hundred different readings to "Khaleesi"). The bad ones, like Sophie, can't.

I've noticed that Sophie Turner needs to be in a scene with a really good actor for her to be do anything worthwhile in her scenes; otherwise, she's a disaster. It's why so many of her scenes have fallen flat. Unfortunately, she's been mostly paired with terrible actors and/or otherwise good actors who are terrible in GOT for whatever reason: Rory McCann, Aiden Gillen, Sibel Kekilli, Iwan Rheon, Finn Jones, etc. Give her a good actor, and she brings something of value, however limited her gifts otherwise. Put her with a terrible actor, or an otherwise good actor who's shitty in GOT, and watch her flounder. Compare this to Maisie Williams, who has an effortless rapport with and who pulls great performances out of shitty actors like Rory McCann (another one cast for a specific "look," and it shows), and the difference is clear. Good actors elevate their scene partners; that's why Charles Dance was such a loss, since he raised the game of everyone with whom he shared a scene. Sophie Turner needs to be elevated. That's the difference.

From an acting perspective, I'm not looking forward to Sophie and Kit sharing scenes; it will be the blind leading the blind.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[Winter Rose]

The Kingsguard's job first and foremost is to protect the king. Anything that comes after can only do so if it doesn't interfere with that first duty. Ned may have been Lyanna's brother but he was still one of the people to rebel against the crown, in addition to being Robert's best friend, and he didn't come to the ToJ alone. And Jon being next in line following the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon (and NOT swearing fealty to Robert, as they only saw him for a usurper), protecting Jon would've been too important for the Kingsguard to take a chance that they MIGHT be able to reason with Ned. And at the time I doubt Ned's legendary honor would've been as well known as it was after he officially took his place as Lord of Winterfell. And even if Lyanna could talk between contractions and ask them to spare Ned, she was well inside the tower while the Kingsguard were outside. It would've been difficult for her to yell to them to spare Ned, or even for her to know when Ned arrived.

That doesn't mean the Kingsguard wanted to kill Ned, or he them, but they couldn't risk Jon's safety in any way. But I think both sides still had a respect for each other, which is why I think Dayne wished him luck in wars to come. But I loved the ToJ scene, I just wish the lead up to the fight with Arthur Dayne was longer. I certainly wouldn't have minded cutting out something from one of the other storylines.

As much as I'd love to believe there's some sort of plot going on to take down Ramsay and that that wasn't really Shaggydog's head, I feel like D&D either really love Ramsay or really love Iwan Rheon that they want to hold onto him for as long as possible. I still think Ramsay's days are more numbered than it seems but I think D&D will wait till the last possible moment to get rid of him.

[Oscirus]

Jon wasn't next in line though, Viserys was.  

That's the one situation where I'm with Ned. You're trying to kill me before I see my sister, screw honor.

[MarySNJ]

11 hours ago, SFoster21 said:

I think the guards were there to protect her and her baby and keep her safe from the war.

Ned was an odd exclusion, but from the screams, she was perhaps in labor and unable to receive visitors.

I think she was in labor too. Those screams sounded like child birth, not torture or terror. The war was effectively over at that point, wasn't it? Although I guess that's less clear in the episode because they didn't say it in the dialog. In any case, I think it's clear in the book dialog that the Kingsgaurd at the TOJ were aware of what happened to Rhaegar's other children. They would have reason to fear for Rhaegar's child by Lyanna, as Lord Stark was close friends with the "usurper" King who had justified the slaughter of Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia. 

[Jazzy24]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Jon wasn't next in line though, Viserys was.  

That's the one situation where I'm with Ned. You're trying to kill me before I see my sister, screw honor.

No Jon could be if he was legitimate. 

And Ned's best friend who he just fought against the Targs with was the man who just stepped over the brutalized dead bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys, Rhaegar's two baby children. 

They were protecting a innocent baby whose life was in danger because his daddy was a Targ. Nobody was getting to that tower if they could help it.