S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[trif]

Quote

Afraid of some wildings?  What a crap reason for turning over Rickon and Osha

I don't know, it makes sense to me. Do all the wildlings really come in peace and does Lord Umber have any way of knowing if so? Basically we see that he is fiercely independent and from his perspective Jon Snow forced his hand, and so he made his choice to sacrifice two people for his land and his people. Not that I think it's right, but I think it's nice to get non-crazy, non-sadistic allies for Ramsay and to see their reasoning. Though he will probably turn out to be a gratuitous a-hole soon enough, given the flippancy about patricide.

[KaleyFirefly]

40 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Hello, Kit Harrington's butt.  I'll be in my bunk.

That was a nice butt, I have to say.

[ChromaKelly]

PLEASE let the Shaggydog thing be a fakeout! I've been holding out hope of Davos, Osha, and Rickon returning from Skagos on a unicorn with Shaggydog at their side. If we can't have that on the show, then I needed the Umbers and a The North Remembers. I can't believe they would do the Tower of Joy so well and then have the Umbers turn on the Starks.
Having a lot of nerdrage right now.

[that one guy]

Quote

There were more than four assassins in episode 510.  What happened to them?

Wun Wun happened to them, last week.

I loved the look on Dany's face when she heard that all the Khalasars would be meeting in Vaes Dothrak to decide which cities would be sacked. She's like "I can work with that." Crisis is the intersection of danger and opportunity and all that.

Jon is obviously the Oathbreaker.

I'm with Bran. Show us the Tower already! That was just obnoxious. But I like that Ned could hear him. I think the "old gods" in the Weirwoods might just be greenseers from the future talking to people in the past.

Tormund rules.

ETA: I don't care about Shaggydog. I know this makes me a bad person in many people's eyes, but I actually don't like dogs. But if they hurt Osha I'll be super pissed. Enough with the violence against women already. I get it, it's a fallen, evil, patriarchal world. But I really hope they don't go there. But I don't hold out much hope, because this show always goes there. Sigh.

Edited May 9, 2016 by that one guy

[stillshimpy]

I think Arya's scenes exist to give us all processing time for the actually interesting developments.  

I could give a flying fig about Jon Snow or Kit Harrington's bits and parts. but what I did like was that he is just fucking DONE with that Night's Watch.  The "My watch has ended" earned a "hell yeah, it has" from me. 

Again, I don't believe Umber is a traitor. Period.  He's Lord Manderey.   You know how I can tell?  Good looking guy.  Clean hair.  This show seldom bothers to cast the attractive as villains. 

Plus Jojen and Meera sent Osha to the Umbers and Jojen was a Greenseer.  No, I will not believe that they walked into a trap.  

What I will believe is that was a random, extra wolf and that Shaggy Dog is going to help Ghost and tear Ramsay Bolton's throat directly out.  

Osha would have died protecting Rickon rather than let him be taken back there if it wasn't part of a plan.  Hell, she'd have killed him herself (a la Luwin) before she'd have let him be turned over to someone known for SKINNING people.  

Edited May 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[RedheadZombie]

Poor Jon.  When he rose again, all he could talk of was Olly's betrayal.  I thought he would go lenient on him.  One of my favorite lines of Lonesome Dove would have been perfect from Jon to Thorne:  "You're the kind of man it's a pleasure to hang."

Strangely, I noticed that Tommen and Sansa have almost identical voices - accent, tone, and inflection.  They're both such lambs.  Perhaps they were separated at birth.

I hope we see Tyrion's reaction to Myrcella's death. 

I love how Grey Worm and Missandei just stare at Tyrion when he talks.  They just don't know what to make of him, and I think it has little to do with his dwarfism. 

Olenna seemed a little joyful for having her beloved granddaughter as well as her heir in the fanatic's hands.  She should have struck a better deal with the High Sparrow.  All she's ended up doing is pushing Cersei off the deep end.

Mace Tyrell looks like a character from The Wizzard of Oz, but I can't remember who.

27 minutes ago, SFoster21 said:

I'm just breathless.. It was really wonderful to me.  Smart and funny and exciting and horrible.. Without naked women.. Just a great hour of television.

Gratuitous nudity provided tonight by a man - and not a saggy bottomed elderly man.  So glad that EC has let them know she's no longer interested in being the designated T&A.

[Tippi]

I think Isaac is doing a fine job, and the flashbacks have been some of the strongest scenes of the season so far.  I want to see more of them too!    I don't mind the Arya scenes, because Maisie is terrific and Jaqen is sexy and mysterious. 

[ChromaKelly]

One thing I did like - that they are just straight up calling FrankenGregor Gregor Clegane. None of this Robert Strong crap. One thing GRRM has too much of is identity switches, this person is really that person, fake names, all that crap.

[MarySNJ]

8 minutes ago, trif said:

I don't know, it makes sense to me. Do all the wildlings really come in peace and does Lord Umber have any way of knowing if so? Basically we see that he is fiercely independent and from his perspective Jon Snow forced his hand, and so he made his choice to sacrifice two people for his land and his people. Not that I think it's right, but I think it's nice to get non-crazy, non-sadistic allies for Ramsay and to see their reasoning. Though he will probably turn out to be a gratuitous a-hole soon enough, given the flippancy about patricide.

Book Umbers were Northmen through and through and would not have so flippantly waved off Ramsay's kinslaying. So I'm hoping TV-Umber is playing both sides and maybe setting some version of the Grand Northern Conspiracy.

It's true that Umber has a legit grievance, and he's got to make nice with the new Lord Paramount (I may vomit thinking of Ramsay in that title). But I don't think he's got any love for any Boltons. As you say, he's protecting his own interests, and showing as little fealty as he possibly can get away with. Turning over Rickon though... maybe he doesn't know that Ramsay is a psychopath? 

[Captain Stable]

6 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Mace Tyrell looks like a character from The Wizzard of Oz, but I can't remember who.

The Mayor of Munchkin Land!

4 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

[..] maybe he doesn't know that Ramsay is a psychopath? 

Surely they all know by now - he hasn't kept it secret. In fact he's actively promoted the fact that he flays people alive to help "persuade" them to pay their taxes...

[RedheadZombie]

28 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Young Ned killing a man who was stabbed in the back. Tsk. Tsk.

Considering what the Targaryens did to the Starks, it didn't bother me.  But it seems very unlike Ned to brag on himself, and a lie at that.

30 minutes ago, glowbug said:

 I want Ramsay dead.

Right?  Killing your dad - whatever.  Harm another hair on a Stark head - Death.Now.  This is me:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UceGF3M56bE

[lmsweb]

I'm going to have to rewatch the last episode. I am confused as to how Davos was in the room when Jon woke up, and Melisande came back in pretty quick. I swear the end of the last episode had them all leaving one by one, including Davos, and then Ghost looked at Jon, and then he woke up. Maybe I'm just so addled by Jon's nicely formed ass that I can't remember clearly. He was also suddenly naked as opposed to having a loincloth on, and these things are distracting...

I cringed through the Tyrion scene with Grey Worm and Missandei. Even the scene with Varys felt a little off to me.

I still love the Arya scenes. And I think her confession that she is confused about whether or not she wanted the Hound to die was very genuine and touching.

I'm going with the assumption that the Umbers turning over Rickon is a ruse. That wolf's head was too small to be a direwolf head. (crosses fingers and toes)

[nodorothyparker]

This was a bookend episode in that the interesting stuff was all either at the beginning or ending.  

I love that Jon is just done.  He's met the terms of the oath and he's out of there.  It's not like anyone's really going to argue the spirit or semantics of it with the guy who just came back from the dead.

Also really loved the Tower of Joy and for maybe the first time ever was totally with Bran in wanting to stay and see where it went.  I can already hear the book purists ginning up their online outrage over Arthur Dayne's two swords but I really don't care.  That was a beautifully done fight.

I'm willing to take a wait and see before condemning Umber.  This has all the feel of a modified North Remembers storyline.  Is anyone in the scene even in the position to even remember what a direwolf looks like other than it just being bigger than the average wolf?  I'm not buying that that was Shaggy Dog yet.

The rest?  A girl doesn't care.  Unless the head Harpy turns out to be what Baelish has been up to offscreen all season, don't care.  Don't care that Dinklage is apparently guaranteed a scene every episode even if they have absolutely nothing for him to do.  Don't care if Dany of the twenty titles spends another three seasons circling the same storyline and going nowhere. I'm also about past the point of caring that there's still no movement in the High Sparrow/Kings Landing story or that they're continuing to ruin one of my favorite book characters.  Really, Jaime?  Cersei has the reanimated corpse of a man you saw die following her around everywhere and you're just now thinking to ask about it? 

[lmsweb]

Oh I almost forgot. Sam and Gilly = yawn. That's why I forgot.

The TOJ scene was great except young Ned Stark sounds like a 12 year old boy. His voice is sort of....I don't know. Not really confidence inspiring. EDIT: OK I am rewatching this scene now. The voice is ok. It's the actor. He just looks....I don't know. Like a kid dressed in his father's clothes. It's really bugging me for some stupid reason.

Edited May 9, 2016 by lmsweb

[Macbeth]

Ser Davos will talk to Jon and set him back on his path.  He is the man who convinced the Bravos bankers to back Stanni.

[MadMouse]

The Tower of Joy scene, I don't know what to think. At this point I don't expect an exact adaptation of the scene but it felt flat to me. So many great lines cut that hinted at the real reason they were there, "We swore a vow, The KG do not flee, etc. Why mention the White Bull in the small council but not have him in the flashback? Didn't like dual wielding Dayne and he didn't come off honorable at all just smug. I did like Howland ganking him in the back though, that's my head canon at how it went down. Only with a spear though. I loved Bran's reaction to it and him realizing that his father wasn't a paragon of virtue.  I know it comes off like a book snob but I've waited to see this scene for years and it just didn't live up to expectations. Of course nothing probably would.

Bloodraven is a thousand years old? Did someone mess up on editing the script, they meant a thousand and one eyes right? 

The Umbers well I'll wait and see. The SmallJon was one of Robbs loyalist men and lost his head defending him. If they really turn him into a traitor it would be terrible. And did he just casually drop that the GreatJon is dead? Screw that if the Shaggydog dies off screen, the fiercest wolf of them all.

Jaime is going to the Riverlands right? He actually comes off worse now then he did in season one. Biggest disappointment in the whole series.

[trif]

I want to believe you guys that Umber is setting Ramsay up, primarily because it would mean it wasn't Shaggydog's head, and secondarily because it would be nice for book fans (and TV only fans who remember that far back) of the Umbers. And I can totally see how that would work with how they just portrayed his personality. But I don't know, it still seems too risky to me to be a real plan when there are simpler alternatives like, oh, kneeling and pledging fealty. This is Ramsay, he could easily torture and permanently disfigure Rickon immediately even if he thinks he's too valuable to kill. (Although, it didn't make sense for Littlefinger to dump Sansa with Ramsay for the same reason, and that happened.) Is it still possible we get the real Manderly and Karstark and Umber are setup for that? Not sure if there's time for that though.

Edited May 9, 2016 by trif

[Dev F]

Definite improvement over the first couple episodes of the season, "Some ladies totally took over Dorne!" reference excluded.

The introduction of Lord Umber this week was miles better than the intro of Lord Karstark last week. The Smalljon was actually given a legitimate political purpose for seeking the Boltons' aid instead of a silly soap opera motivation, and he had a recognizable perspective on this dodgy new alliance, instead of Harald Karstark's "Revenge, therefore we are now brothers in evil!" placeholder characterization.

The pacing is still a little weird, though. I assume that there's meant to be a counterpoint between Jon having to kill his young steward Olly and ultimately deciding to lay siege to Winterfell to rescue his little brother Rickon, but all the pieces weren't in place in time, so Jon has to cede control of the Watch before even learning about Rickon's return. It still pretty much works, but it's a little fuzzier than it could've been.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

I liked Sam and Gilly in the books, and Sam seemed about to do something fairly important as well. 

The "spinning in place" of characters is the books, now that we are done with the books, maybe they will stop and begin to walk a straight line, although if this were a drunk driving test, at this point, not one could pass it.

The Jamie adaptation is the biggest disgrace of this show.  Hand's down, no question.  Oh well, must let Lena look good!

Edited May 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[Avaleigh]

So much for my hope that Shaggydog would end up guarding Sansa. :(

When I consider that Alys was the only Karstark I was fond of, I didn't have a huge issue with the Karstarks being traitors. Rickard, Arnolf, Cregan--they don't come across as nice guys at all to me in the books. 

Same with the Umbers. Apart from the Greatjon who seemed nice enough in the show, I mainly think of them as the northern house who is rumored to think that it's a great idea to continue the rape tradition of the First Night just like the Boltons and however other many northern Houses. It makes perfect sense to me why they'd be down to have a new regime just so that they can take advantage. 

[dbell1]

What is it with ungrateful spawn on this show?  Ramsey, ugh. I need that annoying man fed to direwolves, feet first, but by bit.  

Umber turning on Rickon and Osha? There better be some major level lying there. Going with my happy thought that it's not Shaggy Dog and it's all a trick. If a Stark has to be in Winterfell to defeat the White Walkers, and the Umbers know it, then I can get on board with it.

If I ever get brought back to life after being stabbed, I want Davos there. 

Epic scene with Jon walking out on the Watch. Technically he was dead, so unless he signs back up again, he should be able to leave.

Waiting for the rest of the Tower of Joy scenes. Farewell Ser Arthur Dayne, you were super impressive in those few minutes of screen time. 

[Eyes High]

I loved the head widow's reaction to Dany's belief in her destiny to conquer the world as something pretty standard that all the widows have to get over. Heh.

[that one guy]

Quote

Bloodraven is a thousand years old? Did someone mess up on editing the script, they meant a thousand and one eyes right?

 It sounds like the Three Eyed Raven isn't Bloodraven  on the show. The fact that he has two eyes kind of confirms that.

[Avaleigh]

29 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I could give a flying fig about Jon Snow or Kit Harrington's bits and parts. but what I did like was that he is just fucking DONE with that Night's Watch.  The "My watch has ended" earned a "hell yeah, it has" from me. 

I've been waiting years for Jon to be done with the Night's Watch so I couldn't be happier. The idea that he owes this organization a single thing is completely absurd to me and I've never understood why people think that he should still keep the vow that he made with them even after being brought back to life. If ever there was a reasonable dealbreaker Jon definitely has one. 

My hope is that the wildlings take over the Night's Watch and that it doesn't have to be exclusive to men. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

Wun Wun happened to them, last week.

I loved the look on Dany's face when she heard that all the Khalasars would be meeting in Vaes Dothrak to decide which cities would be sacked. She's like "I can work with that." Crisis is the intersection of danger and opportunity and all that.

Jon is obviously the Oathbreaker.

I'm with Bran. Show us the Tower already! That was just obnoxious. But I like that Ned could hear him. I think the "old gods" in the Weirwoods might just be greenseers from the future talking to people in the past.

Tormund rules.

ETA: I don't care about Shaggydog. I know this makes me a bad person in many people's eyes, but I actually don't like dogs. But if they hurt Osha I'll be super pissed. Enough with the violence against women already. I get it, it's a fallen, evil, patriarchal world. But I really hope they don't go there. But I don't hold out much hope, because this show always goes there. Sigh.

The violence is an equal opportunist in this series.

Or did people forget: A man was castrated tortured and raped ( by 2 women and maybe some men),Baby boys were slaughtered ( depending on the media you follow Cersei or Joffery), about a few hundred men with 2 or 3 women( again book or show media)butchered at a wedding, at least 2 Northern Lords beheaded one in the first season a Southern Lord who died on a shitter by his son.

Two LC of the NW murdered by their own men one by a child who also killed a female with an arrow, same LC hanged them and beheaded another.

a Lord beheaded for vengence in using blood magic, another Lord knifed and his wife and child fed to the dogs an old woman skinned alive, a Khaleesi who burned a woman, a slave owner and a warlock, placed a man and woman in a vault to die, a Septon who killed men and woman in a brothel, A woman who sets up eunuchs  to be murdered.

a child beater being knifed by a female child, an old woman who poisoned a child at his own wedding the same said child shot a prostitute with a cross bow and though I can add more I'll just end with this: a child burned to death on her father's orders but the biggest outcry was for a (to me anyway)loved major character was raped but it was off screen.

A lot of violence, except the female gender didn't have the market on it as a matter of fact they were also participants.

Edited May 9, 2016 by GrailKing
Added info and replaced a word

[mac123x]

Arthur Dayne duel-wielding was passable, since they needed to make him distinct from the other KG that was there.  It bugged me a little when he kept twirling his swords -- a little too show-boaty.  I guess he was that confident.  What really annoyed me was Ned using a long-sword.  Where the hell was Ice?

 

Strangely, I noticed that Tommen and Sansa have almost identical voices - accent, tone, and inflection.  They're both such lambs.  Perhaps they were separated at birth.

Dean-Charles Chapman has a pretty thick London accent in real life.  He's affecting the RP accent on the show, so maybe he's intentionally mimicing Sophie Turner.

[Avaleigh]

Is it really that surprising that Osha would try to make a deal with the other side to save herself only to ultimately realize that these people aren't going to play ball with her? 

She tried the same thing with Robb and Theon. She always tries to save herself first only this time it seems like it isn't going to work out for her. 

[LilaFowler]

I just want to know where they're going with Arya's storyline.  I feel like I've watched the same scene with her about a dozen times now and it's just so boring.  She's doing all of this -- to what end?  If she leaves that place, remembers who she is and returns to Winterfell, all of this will seem like a massive waste of time.  Theories?

[Miles]

That head was awfully small for a direwolf. But I fear it was actually supposed to be shaggy dog and the prop masters just fucked up.

1 hour ago, Captain Stable said:

We never saw the Umbers swear an oath to keep Rickon safe...

The Umbers swore an oath of fealty to the Starks. Delivering the heir of the house to his enemies certainly breaks that oath.

49 minutes ago, that one guy said:

Jon is obviously the Oathbreaker.

He is not. His watch ended with his death. It's in the oath.

[lmsweb]

2 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Is it really that surprising that Osha would try to make a deal with the other side to save herself only to ultimately realize that these people aren't going to play ball with her? 

She tried the same thing with Robb and Theon. She always tries to save herself first only this time it seems like it isn't going to work out for her. 

You mean the same Osha who slept with Theon, then killed a guard, to sneak Bran and Rickon out of Winterfell, and then doubled back to keep them safe under the crypts at Winterfell? The Osha that when last we saw her had traveled countless miles with those same two boys to keep them safe? The same Osha who could have walked off at ANY TIME before or during those events and abandoned the boys? That Osha?

[Captain Stable]

Just now, Miles said:

The Umbers swore an oath of fealty to the Starks. Delivering the heir of the house to his enemies certainly breaks that oath.

I think we'll both disagree on this point. My viewpoint says Greatjon swore the oath. He's now dead and Smalljon is thinking he's not bound by the oath.

[Susan79]

7 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 What really annoyed me was Ned using a long-sword.  Where the hell was Ice?

Ice is ceremonial, it's not for actual fighting. It's been too long since I read the books so I don't remember exactly how it was described. but I really enjoyed the Tower of Joy fight.

[GrailKing]

Just now, Susan79 said:

Ice is ceremonial, it's not for actual fighting. It's been too long since I read the books so I don't remember exactly how it was described. but I really enjoyed the Tower of Joy fight.

How did Tywin get ICE in the book I forgot myself?

[Miles]

7 minutes ago, Captain Stable said:

I think we'll both disagree on this point. My viewpoint says Greatjon swore the oath. He's now dead and Smalljon is thinking he's not bound by the oath.

Pretty sure he would have had to swear such an oath when he came of age. That's just the way when one house is pledged to another. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Some things are just obvious.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Miles

[huahaha]

Count me as one who LOVED that sword fight. I haven't enjoyed on-screen swordplay that much since The Princess Bride first came out. Usually, one or two guys against several looks like a joke, but I believed in Arthur Dayne and his (apocryphal) double sword action.

I'm surprised to see so many people think the wolf wasn't a direwolf. The head looked huge to me, though I refuse to replay the scene to check.

This was the first episode this season that felt like the old Game of Thrones to me, and I have to wonder whether having Ned on screen was part of that. I loved seeing how the myth of Ned was made, and the scene was even better because young Ned looked every bit the baby that Robb and Jon did at the start of the series. Heroes are grown, not born.

One other detail that I don't think has shown up in the show so far: Ned clearly accepting that Rhaegar should've been the king and Robert was a usurper. The Ned we saw in season 1 showed nothing but his Team Baratheon side. Young Ned obviously didn't feel the same.

Edited May 9, 2016 by huahaha

[mac123x]

Ice is a two handed greatsword that is used in fights.  It's Valyrian steel so it's lighter and easier to wield than a standard steel greatsword.  I'm guessing the actor couldn't wield it effectively.

 

"Oathbreaker" -- I think the title refers to several people.  Sam is breaking his oath not to leave Gilly.  Dany broke her oath (though she never took one, the Dosh Kaleeen see it that way) to return to them when Drogo died.  Some people will say Jon broke his NW vows, though they should have expired when he died.

[Avaleigh]

11 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

You mean the same Osha who slept with Theon, then killed a guard, to sneak Bran and Rickon out of Winterfell, and then doubled back to keep them safe under the crypts at Winterfell? The Osha that when last we saw her had traveled countless miles with those same two boys to keep them safe? The same Osha who could have walked off at ANY TIME before or during those events and abandoned the boys? That Osha?

I was talking about book Osha who fooled Bran into thinking that she had sided with Theon. The book Osha who decided to side with Robb when she realized that she had no choice unless she wanted to die. I can totally see her siding against the Starks only to think that she'll be able to change sides again just as she's always done. It isn't that hard for me to believe that she would raise her hands and yield in order to save her own skin and think of a better plan later. 

ETA:

The fact that she slept with Theon is proof enough to me that she'd do just about anything to save her own skin. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Knuckles]

So last week Ramsay was planning to head to Castle Black, and attack the undefended south side. Great idea, let him run into the willings camped south of there. Unfortunately, this week, the shifty Lord Umber tells him the wildlings are camped there...damn. Umber refusing any sign of submission to Ramsay will be remembered by the evil one, even with the gift of Osha and Rickon. Do I think it's a set up? No, the North in the D&D version now seems hopelessly fractured, with every house for itself. Handing a Stark over to Ramsay, who has been flaying northern lords, is nobody's idea of a set-up. And Umber is very clear that Ramsay offed his old man, poison be damed.

Glad Jon's last act was to swing the sword...he looked heartbroken at Olly, but they deserved to answer for treason and murder. And as Jon said and now  my watch is done...I heard Aemon saying, kill the boy and let the man be born. Go Jon.

[Pogojoco]

I'm on board with this Umber teaming up with Osha and Rickon on the long con. Which might've been activated when they heard Roose was dead- Roose, who knows the size of a full grown direwolf (having seen Grey Wind)- Shaggy Dog could still be alive and hiding in the crypts or something (he's done it before.) 

Umbers are hard Stark loyalists and have no real reason to turn against them. This might be wishful thinking, but I'm kind of over Ramsey Snow torturing Starks and wards of Starks and friends of Starks. Shaggy Dog taking him out might be fun. 

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

How did Tywin get ICE in the book I forgot myself?

When Ned was executed, he was executed with Ice. So the Lannisters had it. Tywin had it split into two swords, but Tyrion thought he should've had it sent back to Robb with Ned's body. 

[placate]

16 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Ice is a two handed greatsword that is used in fights.  It's Valyrian steel so it's lighter and easier to wield than a standard steel greatsword.  I'm guessing the actor couldn't wield it effectively.

Benjen might not be a ranger yet. He'd be ahead of Ned to be lord of Winterfell.  I forgot what the "a Stark must always be in Winterfell," stuff but it'd make sense for Benjen to be there with Ice.

Edited May 9, 2016 by placate

[Eyes High]

I don't know what I liked better about the scene where Jon comes back: Tormund's hug or Edd grinning like an idiot. Aw.

I rolled my eyes at Varys' affronted "I would NEVER hurt children" when the prostitute suggested he was threatening her child, when Book Varys cut out his little birds' tongues. (Ditto for TV Varys apparently bribing his birds with sweets and not removing their tongues. Whatever.)

Quite liked Smalljon Umber's zero tolerance for Ramsay and Karstark's bullshit...although I wasn't thrilled that apparently TV Karstark is a pedophile ("nice and young...the way Karstark likes them"). Can't he just be an asshole, like most of the male book Karstarks? Does he have to be a pedophile, too?

Edited May 9, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

I'm on board with this Umber teaming up with Osha and Rickon on the long con. Which might've been activated when they heard Roose was dead- Roose, who knows the size of a full grown direwolf (having seen Grey Wind)- Shaggy Dog could still be alive and hiding in the crypts or something (he's done it before.) 

Umbers are hard Stark loyalists and have no real reason to turn against them. This might be wishful thinking, but I'm kind of over Ramsey Snow torturing Starks and wards of Starks and friends of Starks. Shaggy Dog taking him out might be fun. 

When Ned was executed, he was executed with Ice. So the Lannisters had it. Tywin had it split into two swords, but Tyrion thought he should've had it sent back to Robb with Ned's body. 

Couldn't remember if that was in book

[Avaleigh]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She slept with Theon to get Bran and Rickon out of Winterfell then they doubled back and hid in the crypt, did you miss that?

No I didn't miss that, I just think that we've seen her try to save herself first at multiple points so it isn't hard for me to think that saving herself is what led her and Rickon being in the position that they're in now. I'm guessing that she wasn't willing to die in order to save Rickon and that's where we are in the story. 

[DigitalCount]

2 hours ago, vendredi3 said:

I believe the place where Dany is staying is known as a retconvent, where the writers have suddenly decided Khal's wives go once they're widowed.

Can I ask why so many people seem to be saying this? This isn't the only place I've seen such sentiment, despite Vaes Dothrak being referenced early on in both the books and the show. Maybe it's just been too long since last we saw it? I guess they didn't explicitly say it was compulsory, but I really don't see the retcon here.

[huahaha]

If taking Rickon and Osha, with what looks like a real direwolf's head, to the craziest mofo left in the land is someone's idea of a stealth play, I have to believe they won't be around for very long. Ramsey killed a baby he considered a rival just last week. He easily could've walked straight up to Rickon and slit his throat (and may still, though the plot seems to be headed in another direction).

Edited May 9, 2016 by huahaha

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

No I didn't miss that, I just think that we've seen her try to save herself first at multiple points so it isn't hard for me to think that saving herself is what led her and Rickon being in the position that they're in now. I'm guessing that she wasn't willing to die in order to save Rickon and that's where we are in the story. 

That scene with Umbers has ambiguity written all over it, especially with that wolf head, she has constantly shown she cared for Bran and Rickon, as she said they spared her when they had no real cause to do so.

ETA: isn't self preservation high on the human chain?

Edited May 9, 2016 by GrailKing

[Jazzy24]

9 minutes ago, placate said:

Benjen might not be a ranger yet. He'd be ahead of Ned to be lord of Winterfell.  I forgot what the "a Stark must always be in Winterfell," stuff but it'd make sense for Benjen to be there with Ice.

Benjen is not ahead of Ned to be Lord of Winterfell. Ned is the second born son and older than Benjen so he's Lord of the North. 

[Avaleigh]

Just now, GrailKing said:

That scene with Umbers has ambiguity written all over it, especially with that wolf head, she has constantly shown she cared for Bran and Rickon, as she said they spared her when they had no real cause to do so.

I won't be surprised at all if Osha is playing along to save her own skin just as she's always done. Rickon wasn't responsible for saving her life at all. Hopefully she's become fond of him since they've spent so much time together. 

I love the idea of Shaggydog still being alive and eventually (hopefully) being attached to Sansa. 

[Ambrosefolly]

If word got out that Sansa got away, Ramsey would use Rickon to lure her back and torture Rickon in front of her to get her in line to produce an heir. While I understand that the villains hired have certain amount of charisma, and it might be too early to tell (Charles Dance!,Michael McElhatton), I think that Lord Umber's actor came across as a bit too likable. I too am hoping for a long con.

[GrailKing]

Just now, Avaleigh said:

I won't be surprised at all if Osha is playing along to save her own skin just as she's always done. Rickon wasn't responsible for saving her life at all. Hopefully she's become fond of him since they've spent so much time together. 

I love the idea of Shaggydog still being alive and eventually (hopefully) being attached to Sansa. 

Not Rickon, Robb, they as in Starks in general.