S04.E08: The Magic of David Copperfield V: The Statue of Liberty Disappears

[VCRTracking]

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Also, been meaning to say for a while now that I think one thing people often forget about with a character like Elizabeth, is that she was raised in a collectivist culture. Soviet citizens did not value "rugged individualism" and "personal rights" and "self-actualization" the way Americans did (and do). Remember her collectivist - the-whole-matters-more-than-any-individual-part - is key. Thinking back to the Cold War, this really was a clash of civilizations; two different perspectives on what it meant to be a human being and part of a human society. Elizabeth really could (based on her history) justify killing innocents for "the sake of the greater good" and really believe it. She was raised to think this was right. That's why I think the sociopath labelling is off. She is a loyal Soviet, through and through - and it shapes her entire worldview.

It also why she's finally found a friend in Young-Hee who even though she's part of a mission. Elizabeth finds it easier to befriend her because she's from another country  whereas with an ordinary American born in this country she would have total contempt for.

Edited May 5, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Conan Troutman]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

Not sure if you really mean dead or not, but...

Nah, I just meant the expression, not Martha herself. Although it was interesting how Elizabeth and Philip referred to her in the past tense. I don't think that means anything about her actual fate (it looked like she did make it safely to Russia and I think we're supposed to take that at face value, there won't be any kind of twist to that), it just kind of stood out a bit that they were talking about her like that just hours after she boarded the plane. Maybe because both of them realized it would probably be for the best if they move on, for the sake of their marriage. 

Anyway, great send-off for Alison Wright, who has been absolutely killing it this season. I assume that was her last scene on the show, and damn, was brilliant! The same goes for everyone else though, everybody brought their A-game tonight. 

1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

Elizabeth and Philip are now Paige's handlers, less her parents. The kid is robotically going along with reporting on the Tims, while withdrawing completely into herself. She can no longer trust her parents with her thoughts or feelings, essentially she is on her own. And she knows it. 

So the question is, does she continue along like a mule in harness, as she is just a teenager, or does the girl who got on a bus to see her "grandmother"
 for herself make a break for it?

I guess she'll continue working Pastor Tim for the time being. I kind of expected Paige to play the "or what?" card when Elizabeth ordered her back after Paige told her she didn't feel like going to bible study, but she was obviously scared shitless once Elizabeth went into rage mode. Still, I think things will have to get a lot worse before she's doing anything drastic. 

[VCRTracking]

The AfterBuzz show recap said Phillip would have probably handled Paige better in that scene and I agree.

Edited May 5, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Conan Troutman]

Short term, I think Elizabeth' approach worked and I'm not sure Philip would've been able to get her to fall in line (whether it was absolutely necessary is a different question). But long term, there have to be repercussions. Also, if she has to chose sides at some point, no doubt she's rolling with Philip. 

[scartact]

There's such a vast wealth of things to unpack in this episode and if I could, I would just want to watch this episode several more times and address them all, but I also definitely need to go to bed now.

Very quickly, I just want to bring up that one thing I really loved about Philip and Elizabeth's fight is the way they throw at each other all these various betrayals in such rapid succession. It was ugly and spiteful and unearthed a lot of these unspoken and unresolved tensions that only a relationship as long as theirs could have. Their fight also made me think back to "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep" when Betty says during their second chance at marriage, one of the two things her husband absolutely never talked to her about was his marriage and relationship with the other woman. Their respective betrayals toward one another in Gregory and Irina (and perhaps Martha may become another unspoken betrayal) must have become constructs like that. Sensitive subjects that they never bring up with one another; and yet when exhausted and pushed past their limits and with their guards down, they bring in the things that have hurt them the most about one another. More specifically, I love that Elizabeth brings up Gregory because I could definitely buy that as the entire Martha plotline was unraveling, Gregory may have crept into her mind.

Okay, and one more thing. This episode sort of made me think back to "In Control", probably the one episode of the show I consider subpar relative to everything else, and how much better I find this depiction of Elizabeth losing control than I did in that season one episode.

[albaniantv]

This episode felt so different from other ones, it rattled me. I was scared for Martha, nervous for Paige, suspicious of Gabriel and the Residentura boss who was looking so intently at Oleg. Am even suspicious that Gaad is now watching Stan because too much went wrong in that office for it all to have been Martha.

The pace was erratic and framing overly dramatic -- like Martha's strong profile in that little plane window, the alcoholic, grey faced woman lunging around her kitchen before she gets a broken bottle planted in her. 

Before the actual time jump, it felt like the adults were aging too rapidly. All of a sudden Gaad was dressed in old men's leisure clothes; Gabriel and Claudia start talking like comedy tropes of old folks discussing the young: "we had to" "they can't imagine;" Stan can't figure out where his beer is going even though he lives with adolescents all around him. Philip is looking for his lost youth in a driveway hockey match?

On the other hand, there were a few heartfelt moments that felt important --Elizabeth seems to have found a real friend even if she can't let herself realize that yet and Philip got some emotional relief from Stan's news that the FBI had been upside down for 3 days, confirming Philip's instincts were right to uproot Martha. When Nina was sent back to Russia, I thought we would never see her again and was delighted to be wrong. Now I wonder if we will see Martha again.

[VCRTracking]

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This episode felt so different from other ones, it rattled me. I was scared for Martha

I was totally waiting for either Martha to be shot on the plane or for the plane to blow up!

Poor Martha, telling Phillip not to be alone. *shakes head*

[BetyBee]

Wow!  I thought Elizabeth was scary as she was laying out Paige's horrid life plan, but when she met with Lisa, I felt full on hatred for her.  The contrast of her relationship with Young Hee only served to make me realize she could easily dispatch "agent" Young Hee too, if need be.  Philip going to Eugene's grave and mourning the loss of Martha makes him seem more human.  If one survives, I hope it's him.  It's the only hope their kids have.  Speaking of their kids, I think Henry is starting to get a clue that something is off about his parents.  This is still my favorite show, but now I'm hoping for a bad ending for P&E and for a good one for Henry & Paige.

[Chaos Theory]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Elizabeth probably loved The Outsiders. All that class warfare and a rich asshole "Soc" getting killed.

Probably would have hated Star Wars....or maybe not.   I don't know.  Rebels fighting a big mighty evil empire.   I thought so when it was brought up but not sure now.  Not sure if she would have gotten anything out of it or found a way to make it "Very American" like EST even though I thought it fit her well and effected her at the time.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[SunnyBeBe]

I was impressed with this episode and noticed it was directed by Rhys.  I normally don't notice, so I'm not sure if he does this regularly or not. It was an episode that I found myself wanting Philip to do or say certain things, which he did not. The EST influence perhaps.  Before Martha boarded the plane, I wanted him to comfort her.  His words would have meant a lot.  Something like, "I really cared for you.  I do want you to have a good life.  Know that you meant so much to me."  Small words that I think were true. Why not give her that in parting.  It seemed cruel to me.  

Then when Elizabeth tried to comfort Philip.  It was awkward, but she was trying.  But, no, he was at first mopey, then disagreeable.  What was the point.  HE was being honest, but still a jerk.  Then, when Stan came over.  He seemed so depressed. I mean, he really was a turn off for Stan.  If you really wanted to know more about what was going on in the FBI office, agree when E invites him to dinner, instead just standing there.  Rude, IMO.  And don't Philip and Gabriel realize that the FBI have Martha's parent's phone bugged?  Of course, they would.  So, why suggest that Philip could CALL them with a message?  Crazy talk, IMO.

Elizabeth was my favorite last night.  She bent over backwards to be supportive of Philip.  To me, he provoked her.  She tries EST and gave her honest opinion about it.  Isn't that what EST stands for?  Speaking the truth?  She did and he goes off.  And I agree.  I was thinking what she was, before she said. EST seems like a gimmick to me.  E tried to get the woman to go to AA, but no....E had no choice. You can't reason with a drunk person.  

And Elizabeth had to address Paige.  The girl is a dangerous prima donna.  She needed the dress down.  It was for Paige's own safety too.  If she spouts off again, the Center could take Paige down.  E knows this. 

Why is there talk of Martha being dead?  I thought it was clear she was alive and well.  Didn't Titianna and Oleg confirm this in private? 

Is Gaad gone for good?  I hope not. I like him.  Can someone tell me what he was advocating with Stan?

Edited May 5, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[millennium]

8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Martha handled that fairly well.  Even when Clark/Philip blew up her life she had the decency to wish him well. 

I liked that even though Martha only appeared in about five minutes of the episode it was ALL ABOUT HER and there was a parallel to Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappearing and the Russians making her disappear.  

 

The last we saw of Martha was a lone light in the sky.    The only part of the Statue of Liberty that remained after Copperfield disappeared it was the torch light.

Elizabeth deserves a very ugly fate.

[Ellaria]

3 hours ago, albaniantv said:

This episode felt so different from other ones, it rattled me. I was scared for Martha, nervous for Paige, suspicious of Gabriel and the Residentura boss who was looking so intently at Oleg. Am even suspicious that Gaad is now watching Stan because too much went wrong in that office for it all to have been Martha.

I thought this was a strange episode but not in a "bad" way. Martha's departure was brilliantly underplayed. Can't decide on whether or not we will ever see her again. The explosion between P&E was hard to watch because it was so raw. Their marriage is so complicated; it may be the heart of this story.  

I would like the plot in the Rezidentura to get moving along. Tatiana is hiding something. Her repeated attempts to "play" Oleg are becoming obvious (to the audience) and hopefully to Oleg. Gaad's advice to Stan indicates - to me - that his relationship with Oleg is going to yield something important.

Elizabeth's monster tendencies were on full display. Her scene with Paige was frightening on so many levels. She doesn't understand her daughter. She sees everything through her own prism and it will have destructive effects. To share a secret of that magnitude with a teen-ager with the intent of recruiting her as a spy is a horror. Then, to not comprehend Paige's confusion/mistakes about the handling of that information...well, as a parent, I find it disturbing. 

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The more I watched Paige tonight, the more I thought "That teenager is more likely to turn them in than anyone on the show."

I know, I know, but that girl is pissed, and hormonal, and hates what she's being forced to do, and hon?  It's only going to get worse.  Stan's right across the street after all, one tantrum is all it would take.

Paige made a grave mistake in sharing that information but that's what teens do...they don't use good judgement. She could well be the one that brings down her parents but I'd prefer that it didn't happen that way. I think that it would destroy her.

I also don't want Smug Stan to bring them down. His slurping beer scenes in P&E's kitchen and then with Gaad made me want to scream. Wait until its discovered that spies have been under Stan's nose the entire time. Maybe another agent will tell him a story about stamp collecting before he gets on the elevator of doom.

Right now, I'd like to see Henry below the lid off all of this...

[RedHawk]

24 minutes ago, millennium said:

The last we saw of Martha was a lone light in the sky.    The only part of the Statue of Liberty that remained after Copperfield disappeared it was the torch light.

Elizabeth deserves a very ugly fate.

Good catch on how only a single light remained of both.

For Martha, the Statue of Liberty disappeared, maybe forever. 

[Chaos Theory]

Now that I have had a bit of time I think these last three episodes might have been the best of the series.  If this is Alison Wrights last hurrah then I couldn't  have thought of a better one.  You can't kill off every character like it was Game Of Thrones up in here and having Martha walk off Into the sunset was both beautiful and immensely sad.  

 

I also loved that that there was throwback for the Jennings marriage.  Philip may not have loved Martha but he did like her and he did get comfort from her that Elizabeth is just unable or unwilling to give him.   In a lot of ways Martha understood him in ways Elizabeth just doesn't.  I loved how everything just finally boiled over and erupted between them.

Plus there is Paige.  Paige who is about to erupt on her own.  She wasn't built to be a spy and yet her parents are running her like one.

i also loved the ending with Gaad who was right.  His career is over.  I wonder if this is the last we will see if him as well.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Chaos Theory
Clarity

[Anela]

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Wow!  I thought Elizabeth was scary as she was laying out Paige's horrid life plan, but when she met with Lisa, I felt full on hatred for her.  The contrast of her relationship with Young Hee only served to make me realize she could easily dispatch "agent" Young Hee too, if need be.  Philip going to Eugene's grave and mourning the loss of Martha makes him seem more human.  If one survives, I hope it's him.  It's the only hope their kids have.  Speaking of their kids, I think Henry is starting to get a clue that something is off about his parents.  This is still my favorite show, but now I'm hoping for a bad ending for P&E and for a good one for Henry & Paige.

I liked the way they ended the episode with Gaad saying, "You have to remember who these people are." 

I liked Phillip standing up for Martha, and that he wasn't fine after she left on the plane. He really did care for her. Elizabeth horrified me all over again, and I felt sad for Paige - she's ended up being an agent of sorts. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Anela

[stagmania]

I have so many thoughts that I'm struggling to get out right now, I barely know where to begin! Forgive me the long post. 

8 hours ago, crashdown said:

 My take on Elizabeth is a bit different from what I'm reading in a lot these posts.  Elizabeth is just about ready to crack, and it's because little bits of doubt about her life choices are creeping in, whether she wants to admit it or not.  

I completely agree with this take. It's been pretty clear over the last few episodes that Elizabeth has been starting to crack, just as Phillip did last season. It's just for different reasons. For Phillip, who doesn't seem to be a true believer in the cause anymore, it's the guilt he feels for destroying lives that eats him up. For Elizabeth, the demands of her job don't get to her as much because she really does believe it's all in service of an ultimate good. Instead, it's the reality that she's come to care about other things just as much, if not more, than the cause, and the complicated feelings and doubts that creates for her as she tries to understand the way she's changing and how that fits with her life. 

In this episode, you see her reaching out to Phillip for support and trying her best to connect with him. He's not letting her, because he's too lost in his own heavy shit at the moment. The scenes where she tried to get him to talk to her about Martha and how he was feeling were painful-he knows now how his behavior around this Martha situation has made her feel, and he knows what she needs from him, but he refuses to give it to her. That's his way of lashing out to deal with his pain, and she lashes out in turn-by tearing into him about EST. I think she went to that seminar with good intentions, but it struck a nerve when she was already feeling so raw and angry with Phillip, and her better angels deserted her. (Nevermind that in my opinion she's completely right about EST; she knows what it means to Phillip and that she could easily goad him into a fight by attacking it.) Add in her daughter not wanting to do what she must to secure their safety, and yeah, her anger and frustration and complete loss of patience was understandable.

And then on top of this, when she's frayed at the edges and feeling lost and uncertain in her own relationship and worried about the situation Paige has put them in, she has to deal with an asset suddenly going off the deep end. I don't believe there was any part of her that took pleasure in killing Lisa, or that she was working out her rage with that broken bottle. I think she did what she felt she had to in an awful situation, and it was clear that it drove her to the breaking point. Gabriel could see it when she walked into his place, which is why he finally admitted that the Centre was asking too much of them and pushed for relief. 

8 hours ago, whiporee said:

While I thought it hit a lot of important plot points, I thought that was really, really, really bad. I don't know whether it was the writing -- which felt like nothing but exposition after exposition -- or the directing that felt choppy and ham-handed, or the acting which didn't have a trace of subtlety anywhere. 

I liked the episode quite a lot, but I understand this perspective. While I thought the acting was great as always, it felt like the writers got themselves into a narrative jam, and the only way out of it was to pile on to make the situation completely untenable and then resolve it with a time jump so that they can get right back to the constant spy shenanigans without completely undermining Phillip and Elizabeth's emotional journeys. They drove them to a breaking point, so they had to let them break-but we can't have a show about them being travel agents, so the jump allows them to have their cake and eat it, too. 

Speaking of the time jump, I think the fact that they did it makes it very clear that we are to take Martha's escape at face value. She made it to Russia and has been living there for months; I don't believe for a second that this show would give such an important character an off-screen death. I'm on the fence about whether we will ever see her again, or whether I want to. It's clear that they value the character and actor and we've seen the lengths they'll go to to keep someone involved in the story, but I also think it's right that we would never see her again or know much about her new life, as it will be for Phillip.

I have to say, I was disappointed by Martha's final words. Not in that I think it was at all out of character, but that I just wanted to shake her. He's not Clark! He's lied to you every day! Your relationship wasn't wholly real! He's ruined your life! Why do you care if he's alone!? I guess I just kind of hate that she left the story as Poor Martha, still clinging to some idea of "Clark" and feeling warmly toward him. I wanted, even for a moment, to see a Martha who fully grasps what he did to her and holds him accountable for it and doesn't let him off the hook. But I suppose that wouldn't be true to who she is.

I am definitely very interested to see where the story goes from here. They've pretty much hit the reset button, and are now free to introduce completely new missions and emotional dimensions for Phillip and Elizabeth. I have no doubt they've got some great stuff in store for the rest of the season.

[babyPhat279]

I agree that speech at EST was definitely on the nose, but it was still interesting. How would Elizabeth handle entertaining real doubts? That leaving her mother and alienating her daughter weren't necessarily worth it, in the end? Better to double down, keep everyone in line.

I think Phillip (and maybe even Elizabeth, if less stressed) would have found a better way to handle Lisa than immediately murdering them.

I'm glad Gabriel gave them a break. I can understand when younger people seem soft, but just because his life was shitty doesn't mean he can't sympathize when Phil and Elizabeth are having problems.

Edited May 5, 2016 by babyPhat279

[Shriekingeel]

The irony in this show. Last season, from beginning to end, the rallying cry was "don't you dare think of turning our beloved Paige into an agent" and now they're running her like one of their East German or Central American flunkies.  

[PinkRibbons]

I thought it was fairly clear that Elizabeth didn't have an easy time killing Lisa. She came into the safehouse clearly in shock (and I love that Philip immediately went to help her). She was bloody and hurt and didn't notice, and I especially loved the little moment where she doesn't even realize that she's not holding her cigarette anymore.

Everyone has said so much already about this episode, I'm going to go into a really silly detail -- that ribbon Martha put in her hair. It somehow struck me as very Russian, like something out of my mother's photo album. In my teens I grew my hair very very long (terrible idea, thick Jewish hair to the nth degree, it use to hurt my arms to put it up into a bun) and had to start thinking of ways to control it. And I remember very specifically considering braiding a ribbon through my hair. But Mama was vehemently opposed to the very thought because to her that was a reminder of how that was one of the few sad ways girls tried to look pretty in the Soviet Union when nothing else was available. So I've never wore ribbons wound in my hair. From my youngest years Mama made me and my sister giant bows with charms in the center and sparkles. She also dressed us up in the prettiest clothes we could afford (then realized her 4 year old had 100 dresses [mostly thrift-shop finds] and sent half of them to Russia where my cousin almost had an embolism over how beautiful everything was). She hates Ikea to this day because she despises seeing what she thinks of as signs of poverty presented as minimalism.

So yeah, that ribbon on Martha. Very Russian.

[Auntie Anxiety]

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Before Martha boarded the plane, I wanted him to comfort her.  His words would have meant a lot.  Something like, "I really cared for you.  I do want you to have a good life.  Know that you meant so much to me."  Small words that I think were true. Why not give her that in parting.  It seemed cruel to me.  

It seemed like she was waiting for Philip/Clark/Misha to say something about how being with her really wasn't all lies, that he did have feelings for her, that he was sorry for using her, that he'll always remember her.....and he was sincerely sorry about it all.  Seems that their spy training never included learning how to deal with their emotions, thus Philip's need to be an EST-ian.

I'm old enough to remember that EST was the original psychobabble from which the self-help industry sprung (how did anyone manage to live a fulfilling life before learning that you are supposed to "find" yourself?).  Elizabeth was right about it being a for-profit scam.

On a shallow note, Margo Martindale's eyes looked very "refreshed."

Edited May 5, 2016 by Auntie Anxiety

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, shura said:

Until now when he decided to throw it in Elizabeth's face that she still thinks of Gregory.

Not really. I'm not saying Philip wasn't being just as spiteful and lashing out as Elizabeth in this fight, but he didn't throw it in her face. This was an argument where both of them were reacting to far more than the person was saying in context. It was Elizabeth who brought up Gregory in the context of her starting out by talking about how EST is so "American." Given their history, this is directly connected to all those things she informed on Philip about. Here she brought him to basically say he needed to grow a spine and stop moping about Martha because she dealt with worse like a boss when Gregory got killed. This was Elizabeth not quite reacting to what Philip was saying, because his point wasn't that he'd lost somebody important to him, but that Martha was a human being whose life he'd destroyed. We also saw him at Gene's grave. It's not about his personal loss of Martha.

But bringing up Gregory in that context is bringing up exactly the problems Elizabeth had with him back then, that Gregory was more like her because he was more committed to the cause and more badass and ready to sacrifice. This was, unbeknownst to Elizabeth, exactly what Gregory threw in Philip's face, that he needed to remember that he and Elizabeth were happy to sacrifice people like him and Paige. So Philip by accusing her of preferring Gregory, as if she was saying she wished she was with him--which she couldn't be because he was dead. (She took Philip back after Gregory was gone.) 

So when Philip said "You still think about him" he wasn't saying she wasn't supposed to think about him, but that she was thinking about him in the context of him being better than Philip. Which I think in a way she was. Not truly, but she was I think desperately trying to get back to that simpler time when Gregory was the one she thought she was her "real" self with and the two of them were just committed to the cause. By comparing Philip's reaction here to hers with Gregory she really was championing that worldview vs. Philip's.

Btw, interesting that some of Gregory's last words to Elizabeth was that she shouldn't go back to Philip but found someone who appreciated her for her strength while Martha's last words were just not to be alone.

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It does make a lie of all of Philip's concern for Paige...when push comes to shove, his daughter is there to be used.

I wouldn't consider this a situation where she's just there "to be used." She made herself in charge of Pastor Tim when she decided to put her family's lives in his hands. If she doesn't want her parents put in jail, she needs to keep him happy. She wanted to be an adult and know secrets, this is what knowing the secret is like. It sucks and it isn't fair, but this is a job only Paige can do now so letting her just be free isn't really an option.

Not that this makes them the true victims or anything--they set up the situation Paige was too young to handle. But I consider what Paige is going through now a pretty good metaphor for growing up rather than an example of parents who see their child as something to use. I don't see them as just "her handlers" now. They're her parents, but she needs to take care of them in some ways. 

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Those two attempts at smiles by Gabriel in the opening were both the creepiest and most hilarious faces I have seen on him.  

Totally one of my favorite moments. LOL!

 

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Elizabeth is just about ready to crack, and it's because little bits of doubt about her life choices are creeping in, whether she wants to admit it or not.

 

I totally agree. Her face in that EST meeting was furious. She was upset about Martha, sure, but I saw Elizabeth in this ep making a Herculean effort to get herself back to that simpler time when she just needed to be badass. So perfectly natural that she brought up Gregory, comparing her stoicism with Philip's caring about Martha, her orders to Paige, her accusations that EST was "American" (shades of her earlier informing on Philip). And also her and Philip having their same fight from S1 about the separation/reconciliation. 

It makes me think of S6 Mad Men where the characters wound up regressing and finding themselves in situations they thought they'd gotten past--only it's different now. They were having the same fight, but they were different people and it was forgotten when Elizabeth walked in shell-shocked after killing Karen. They even ended with that "Let's take the kids to EPCOT" which was an echo of Elizabeth's "Let's take the kids away this weekend" in The Colonel.

Also, note that Philip's angst is catching--Gabriel, too, is now defensively talking about sending his friend to his death and how terrible it was and trying to say this is just the way things have to be. It's really fascinating how he's suddenly thinking about the Purge so much. 

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And I think from Elizabeth's POV, Gregory and Martha are very different. Elizabeth got to Gregory through political activism and ideology, Martha was a honey trap.

And Elizabeth was in love with Gregory. They had an actual affair. She keeps trying to understand Martha through that lens, but that difference is important. Sometimes, I think, in ways she doesn't even realize. Her and Gregory's whole relationship centered on how the cause came above all else, and she did send him out to die. Gregory was very different from Martha because he made an informed decision and died on his own terms. But Elizabeth may also be seeing that Philip fought harder for Martha and got to keep her alive. Philip is basically the one person in Elizabeth's life who has fought for her personally and she hasn't fought for others that same way. She's always thought sacrifice was the priority.

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 If you really wanted to know more about what was going on in the FBI office, agree when E invites him to dinner, instead just standing there.  Rude, IMO. 

Stan wasn't going to talk about what was going on at the FBI. 

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She bent over backwards to be supportive of Philip.  To me, he provoked her.  She tries EST and gave her honest opinion about it.  Isn't that what EST stands for?  Speaking the truth?  She did and he goes off.  And I agree.  I was thinking what she was, before she said. EST seems like a gimmick to me.

Oh, I disagree she was doing anything like that in that scene. Her manner was very reminiscent of their confrontations in S1 when she was angry imo. She was mad at hell at what she heard at EST (this woman ADORES her cage) and needed to undermine it completely. She was, of course, totally right about it being a gimmick, but sometimes dumb things can be helpful. It depends much more on how the person uses it than the intentions of the thing--I think Sandra and Philip are both great examples of people who are using EST wisely as a way of getting themselves together without becoming proselytizing. This is exactly what Elizabeth did with Paige and the church. She was threatened by it on principle and couldn't separate that from what the person might be getting out of it. She finally calmed down with Paige and church when she could relate it to herself and see Paige as really seeking what she'd get in socialism. 

But this may make it sound like I was angry at Elizabeth in this ep and I wasn't--I found her really sympathetic. She was trying to get control of everyone including herself using her old simple rules and she couldn't. Nobody could go back to the easier ways of before, especially her and Paige. 

[attica]

Oh, I was really tired of poor Keri's trench coat by the end of the ep, I can't even imagine how sick of it she must have been. Having to find an excuse to have Elizabeth just entering a room, and never taking her coat off? Zero to tedious in only one ep! Oh, well. Needs must.

For all of Elizabeth's brusqueness, she was totally correct about the money-suck that was/is est. And, imo, totally correct in laying down the 'too bad you don't like it, buck the fuck up' with Paige. Like Claudia's 'boo hoo', the women know that there's no time for 'your precious moods.' Even Martha stiffened up to make her journey!

[scartact]

This is the first episode in a very long while I remembered and agree with posters how Elizabeth really can be downright scary at times. This episode sort of brought us back to Elizabeth at her hardest and most unrelenting, so I completely understand why people are taken aback by her actions and reactions throughout, which I interpreted as her reaching the end of her rope and trying to situate herself in feelings and emotions she just doesn't understand. She surely does make the effort to, and yet at every step she's been frustrated.

A lot of people may view her as being selfish, but I actually read so much of her actions as really coming from a selfless place (this doesn't mean she isn't being selfish though). Elizabeth is frustrated that she does her best to be a good soldier, very rarely/never indulges her emotions on the job, and will put a lot of those hard and complex feelings she does have about her job into a box and bury it somewhere deep in herself. This season, she's made a huge amount of compromises especially for Philip and Paige. I also agree with the poster who mentioned we also have to understand that Elizabeth wasn't brought up believing in rugged individualism, and that this also has a definite influence on where she places herself. What she really wants is for Philip and Paige to place cause/family above self, yet each one gives into their emotions in ways that make Elizabeth angry, probably also because it something she has so rarely allowed herself to indulge. Is there maybe even some jealousy on her end that these two can do this, yet for her it's almost an impossible compromise of self that she just won't allow herself to do?

That fight with Paige definitely revealed so much of what Elizabeth feels she has to do everyday. It's really cold, but I loved that it really speaks to how much Elizabeth must be thinking about how she and Philip have sacrificed so much and those last few days of trying to find the best possible resolution for Martha in contrast to her daughter's inability to sit through bible study. You can understand why she snapped at Paige, but damn do I feel really awful for the position Paige is in now. Both mother and daughter kinda get what they want (she tells her daughter their true identity, and Paige gets the truth) and yet nobody is really happy with it.

[soapfaninnc]

It just hit me why Stan took the rest of the beer. 

They made a pretty big deal out of the fact they found a fingerprint that wasn't Martha's. Stan has been suspicious of the Jennings before. What better way to get prints than to swipe something you know they've touched?

If they just give me one scene of master spy Elizabeth getting a beat down like she put on Claudia, I will be a satisfied viewer, or her watching the Berlin Wall fall behind prison bars. I hated Gregory. He acted like the kids were not important. Just their beloved 'cause'. Elizabeth is treating her daughter like she has no identity apart from what Elizabeth wants for her. I see Paige starting to engage in destructive behavior - sort of Kimmy like behavior, or they're going to come home and find her dead. Elizabeth may mourn for two seconds, shrug, and then recruit Henry.

The reason EST was able to be successful was that there is an element of truth in it. That's how those cult like things work. The part that the truth sucks a person in, and the rest is just piled on bs. Elizabeth's smug - 'See.... he's a lousy agent but I'm a faithful solider!' - look when they were talking about EST makes me want her in jail - yesterday. She's always been a smug character. No sympathy for her. At all. 

[izabella]

7 hours ago, albaniantv said:

When Nina was sent back to Russia, I thought we would never see her again and was delighted to be wrong. Now I wonder if we will see Martha again.

I am hoping we'll get a brief scene, maybe as part of a montage or something, of Martha being served borscht by her handsome lover in a cozy little love nest saying, "Martina, sweetheart, I tried to make this borscht just like my mother did.  I hope you like it," in Russian.  And Martha, with her Russian translation book next to her answers, "Thank you, Boris, this is wonderful!" 

Edited May 5, 2016 by izabella

[madam magpie]

If they just give me one scene of master spy Elizabeth getting a beat down like she put on Claudia, I will be a satisfied viewer.

That mark a few seasons ago who beat the shit out of her during creepy sex wasn't enough for you?

[shura]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Not really. I'm not saying Philip wasn't being just as spiteful and lashing out as Elizabeth in this fight, but he didn't throw it in her face. This was an argument where both of them were reacting to far more than the person was saying in context. It was Elizabeth who brought up Gregory in the context of her starting out by talking about how EST is so "American." Given their history, this is directly connected to all those things she informed on Philip about. Here she brought him to basically say he needed to grow a spine and stop moping about Martha because she dealt with worse like a boss when Gregory got killed. This was Elizabeth not quite reacting to what Philip was saying, because his point wasn't that he'd lost somebody important to him, but that Martha was a human being whose life he'd destroyed. We also saw him at Gene's grave. It's not about his personal loss of Martha.

But bringing up Gregory in that context is bringing up exactly the problems Elizabeth had with him back then, that Gregory was more like her because he was more committed to the cause and more badass and ready to sacrifice. This was, unbeknownst to Elizabeth, exactly what Gregory threw in Philip's face, that he needed to remember that he and Elizabeth were happy to sacrifice people like him and Paige. So Philip by accusing her of preferring Gregory, as if she was saying she wished she was with him--which she couldn't be because he was dead. (She took Philip back after Gregory was gone.) 

So when Philip said "You still think about him" he wasn't saying she wasn't supposed to think about him, but that she was thinking about him in the context of him being better than Philip.

It still means that he doesn't want Elizabeth to think about Gregory though, even if only because it hurts him to see her do it. She didn't mean to bring up Gregory per se there, she brought up her reaction to what she sees as a similar situation and contrasted it to Philip's reaction to Martha's loss. This reminds Philip of all his insecurities, if you will, that you are describing, and he slams her about it - unfairly, imo. Of course she is going to bring up Irina after that! 

And Elizabeth's objections to his moping about Martha weren't purely about him needing to grow a spine because they need it to go on fighting for the cause. She has her own equivalent insecurities about how his feelings about Martha are different from his feelings about her, so she wants him to get over Martha partly for the same personal reasons Philip wants her to get over Gregory.

I love how this fight was very realistic in the sense that each of them was responding to something other than what the other person actually meant. It happens all the time, people just assume they got the other person's point without making sure they actually got it right and start firing away. I am probably doing it right now replying to your arguments ;).

[Bunnyhop]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I have limited sympathy for Paige. Sorry for her being under pressure, but this is pretty much the consequence of telling someone a dangerous secret. If her parents weren't pushing it Pastor Tim probably would tell. Maybe he still will. As I said on twitter, the Pastor Tims have essentially become that whole pack of cigarettes Paige now needs to smoke because she got caught smoking one.

Yes, I hate to sound heartless, but Paige has always been on eye roll away from my last nerve.  Reminding her that she got herself into this situation by blabbing after being explicitly told not to was satisfying.  In fact, since Elizabeth is going on a little spy hiatus, I'd like to see her put her talents to good use on Fear the Walking Dead.  There are teenagers over there who are pretty precious about their "feelings" too. 

[sistermagpie]

Quote

What she really wants is for Philip and Paige to place cause/family above self, yet each one gives into their emotions in ways that make Elizabeth angry, probably also because it something she has so rarely allowed herself to indulge. Is there maybe even some jealousy on her end that these two can do this, yet for her it's almost an impossible compromise of self that she just won't allow herself to do?

I don't think she really wants them to put the cause over everything. That's what Gregory did and what she told herself she wanted, but she loves Philip in part, imo, because he does put her over everything. She's just terrified of wanting them to do that.

Quote

They made a pretty big deal out of the fact they found a fingerprint that wasn't Martha's. Stan has been suspicious of the Jennings before. What better way to get prints than to swipe something you know they've touched?

Why would he be checking that fingerprint against his next-door-neighbors'? That would imply he's just testing the fingerprints of every single person he knows or meets or sees.

Just now, shura said:

It still means that he doesn't want Elizabeth to think about Gregory though, even if only because it hurts him to see her do it.

But I think that while of course he doesn't want to see her do it, in this context he's accusing her of thinking about Gregory specifically in terms of how he's better than Philip. To paraphrase Elizabeth/Paige, he can't help how he feels, but he can choose how he acts, and his reactions about Gregory have always been hands-off. When Elizabeth explained how she felt about him, he accepted it and let him choose his own death for Elizabeth's sake. His accusation here isn't "You're cheating on me in your mind with Gregory," (although of course that would be painful) it's the bigger issue of Elizabeth always being "disappointed" that he's not someone else, someone more like Gregory. Which was not where Elizabeth was coming from, but like you said, this is a fight where each one is hearing something other than what the other person is saying. For instance:

 

4 minutes ago, shura said:

And Elizabeth's objections to his moping about Martha weren't purely about him needing to grow a spine because they need it to go on fighting for the cause.

Right, but what her insecurities are and what she said are two different things, though. (When she made it clear to him that she was insecure about Martha he could tell her he wasn't.) Here, I think he's angry at her trying to tell him (he thinks) that Martha isn't worth grieving over because they lose agents. He's telling her--loudly--that human beings are worth grieving over. That's why he also went to Gene's grave later in the episode. Elizabeth may see Martha as "his" Gregory, but Philip doesn't, which is why invoking Gregory sent him on a totally different tangent than Elizabeth was on.

This actually also links back to Philip's experience at EST in the pilot when he was talking to Sandra about the bully story and said "I just feel bad." It's not about this particular woman meaning something to him. He feels bad about Gene too. And that bully. People keep telling him it shouldn't matter, but he thinks it does.

So it's almost hard to tease out all the different levels of the argument, but it seems like the top level really is about the cause. Elizabeth is saying that she sacrifices everything for the cause--she even accepted the death of Gregory, whom she loved--as necessary. That's exactly what Philip is refusing to do on principle. Which gets them back to that original problem of strong/weak, loyal/traitorous. Which for Elizabeth is a minefield because it leads right back to Mom.

[benteen]

I have to admit, when Elizabeth suggested going to Epcot, my first thought was that she wanted to go to Florida so that she could kill Lisa's ex.

I was speaking with a friend of mine that and reminded me, just who is replacing Elizabeth and Philip in the field?  Hans is still a relative novice.  It's about time the Centre realized they didn't have to give EVERY SINGLE MISSION to the Jennings but who else do they have in the field?

[Dev F]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I honestly don't think she did provide that at all, though. This ep even reminded us that because of Martha, Philip was away from home. He'd much rather have been at home hanging out with Henry than sitting with Martha pretending they were domestic while he was manipulating her.

But it's not like Philip had a great situation at home that Martha was keeping him from; part of the reason he started bonding with Martha more and more was because his home life was degenerating over his dissatisfaction with his espionage work, his and Elizabeth's arguments over Paige, etc. Yeah, Martha was primarily an asset, but she also served as a refuge from all the shit he was getting at home, and often a way for him to understand his real wife better (as when her desire to have a child to share their life with helps him better understand Elizabeth's support for recruiting Paige).

Indeed, I'd argue that one of the reasons why he's so eager to fall back into a more domestic role at home is because he feels the loss of Martha's support so acutely. It's not that he loved spending time with Martha more than his family or anything like that, but without Martha to fall back on, he can no longer endure eating so much shit at home. Which is part of what Gabriel recognizes at the end of the episode, I think -- and why he allows the Jenningses to reconstitute their domestic sanctuary.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Dev F said:

But it's not like Philip had a great situation at home that Martha was keeping him from; part of the reason he started bonding with Martha more and more was because his home life was degenerating over his dissatisfaction with his espionage work, his and Elizabeth's arguments over Paige, etc.

Maybe. I just honestly never saw Martha as any sort of respite from anything for Philip. His homelife seemed to be degenerating in part because he was never there, so I never saw him as wanting to get away from it. He and Elizabeth may have sometimes fought but he wanted to be with the kids.

[Conan Troutman]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Then when Elizabeth tried to comfort Philip.  It was awkward, but she was trying.  But, no, he was at first mopey, then disagreeable.  What was the point.  HE was being honest, but still a jerk.  Then, when Stan came over.  He seemed so depressed. I mean, he really was a turn off for Stan.  If you really wanted to know more about what was going on in the FBI office, agree when E invites him to dinner, instead just standing there.  Rude, IMO.  And don't Philip and Gabriel realize that the FBI have Martha's parent's phone bugged?  Of course, they would.  So, why suggest that Philip could CALL them with a message?  Crazy talk, IMO.

Is Gaad gone for good?  I hope not. I like him.  Can someone tell me what he was advocating with Stan?

Of course they know the phone's bugged. But Philip also knows how long it takes for them to trace the call and the location isn't really worth anything by itself. So he could just A) keep it short and/or spread it out over multiple calls (not that there's a ton that needs to be said) or B) go to a location where he knows the FBI won't make it there fast enough so he has ample time to escape. It's not like he'd be calling them from his house. 

 

Re: Gaad: I thought that was simply a send-off for Gaad. He's now retired and maybe Stan visits him every once in a while. It also served as a reminder that Stan would continue to search for Clark on his own, even if the agency moves on. 

 

2 hours ago, soapfaninnc said:

It just hit me why Stan took the rest of the beer. 

They made a pretty big deal out of the fact they found a fingerprint that wasn't Martha's. Stan has been suspicious of the Jennings before. What better way to get prints than to swipe something you know they've touched?

I don't think Stan's suspicious, let alone convinced, of Philip being Clark. Besides, there was the time jump after that, so if he had been suspicious, it would be game over already. Him taking the beer was purely comic relief I think (well, that and product placement). People often complain about a lack of humor on the show, but there are always little gems like that missing beer story. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[VCRTracking]

These tweets made me laugh:
 

Quote

 

Michele ‏@michele866 10h10 hours ago

@bendreyfuss Paige is so over Pastor Tim and Alice now, I think she'd actually be ok if they died in some fluke accident.

 

Quote

 

Angel Cruz ‏@_angel_087 14h14 hours ago

Paige starting to Hate pastor tim makes me think that she might be the one to give the green light to kill him #TheAmericans

 

Quote

 

alex ‏@steven_lebron 12h12 hours ago

seeing paige trapped in daily pastor tim hell is one of the best payoffs in television history

0 retweets 2 likes

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by VCRTracking

[jrlr]

I'm expecting to see Paige start cutting herself or attempting suicide.  I don't like the character (or maybe it's the actress), but Paige is convincingly distressed, angry, guilty, trapped - and self-destruction has always been a teen go-to.  

Why did Elizabeth have blood on her neck?

This may have been covered, but I finally realized that Elizabeth used a stun gun on Martha, which would account for the terrible bruising she had on her torso.  

Yes, to whichever poster commented on Margo Martindale's refreshed eyes.  I'd add botox to the other "little changes" she has made.  Hope she doesn't go too far with the cosmetic surgery, because she already looks blander (not a good thing IMO) and less distinctive than she did before she got the work done.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, jrlr said:

This may have been covered, but I finally realized that Elizabeth used a stun gun on Martha, which would account for the terrible bruising she had on her torso.  

I think she just punched her. She didn't need to use anything to do that. Can't explain that blood on her neck, though. I was confused by that.

7 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

alex ‏@steven_lebron 12h12 hours ago

seeing paige trapped in daily pastor tim hell one of the best payoffs in television history

LOL! So true. The week after she decides to hang out and drink a beer she's getting dragged to miniature golf. Sober.

[VCRTracking]

Quote

This may have been covered, but I finally realized that Elizabeth used a stun gun on Martha, which would account for the terrible bruising she had on her torso.  

I didn't hear a stun gun noise. Elizabeth is a trained assassin so a punch from her would hurt, especially someone like Martha.

[stagmania]

I think the blood on Elizabeth's neck was supposed to be Lisa's, I guess from disposing of her. Really, it was a sloppy way of telegraphing that Elizabeth was emphatically not okay and off her game to be out in public looking a mess with a victim's blood visible on her skin.

[Conan Troutman]

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think she just punched her. She didn't need to use anything to do that. Can't explain that blood on her neck, though. I was confused by that..

I assume what's-her-name simply fought back. She shouldn't have been able to hurt Elizabeth at all, but it seems like maybe she got reckless because she was tired/distressed or went a bit berserk. That has to be Gabriel's takeaway too, because it convinced him to give them their vacation. 

 

I don't think it's Lisa's blood. It's looking like a wound with blood running down, either Lisa scratched her or pulled her earring or something like that. 

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[TimWil]

I reckon Elizabeth was impressed by Betty Buckley's singing and devil-may-care mother character in Tender Mercies but repulsed by Ellen Barkin's bitter, self-involved teen daughter character. Maybe that fed into her letting it rip with Paige.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Conan Troutman said:

Of course they know the phone's bugged. But Philip also knows how long it takes for them to trace the call and the location isn't really worth anything by itself. So he could just A) keep it short and/or spread it out over multiple calls (not that there's a ton that needs to be said) or B) go to a location where he knows the FBI won't make it there fast enough so he has ample time to escape. It's not like he'd be calling them from his house. 

 

Re: Gaad: I thought that was simply a send-off for Gaad. He's now retired and maybe Stan visits him every once in a while. It also served as a reminder that Stan would continue to search for Clark on his own, even if the agency moves on. 

 

I don't think Stan's suspicious, let alone convinced, of Philip being Clark. Besides, there was the time jump after that, so if he had been suspicious, it would be game over already. Him taking the beer was purely comic relief I think (well, that and product placement). People often complain about a lack of humor on the show, but there are always little gems like that missing beer story. 

They might have a time lag on the tracing the call and getting to the location, but what about recognizing his voice?  Obviously, Stan would be listening to it and he might pick up that it's Philip's voice.  The voice recognition was my concern. 

And regarding E's neck injury. I thought that the glass from the bottle flew up and cut her.  Shivers of glass can go flying when they break that way.  I do wonder if the scene was cleaned up and the body disposed of or was it left there?  How much investigation will there be?

Edited May 5, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[blueroses]

Alison Wright looked as beautiful as she ever has as Martha in the first scenes of the show in the bathroom.

[stagmania]

Just wanted to share this excerpt from Mo Ryan's review for Variety, because I think she nailed the feeling of this scene and Phillip and Elizabeth's dynamic in general:

Quote

Despite the difficult state of their relationship, Philip rushed to his wife, dabbing at the blood on her neck, trying to provide some support and comfort. The small moment was a metaphor for their relationship as a whole: Two damaged people in a house on fire (metaphorically speaking), reaching out to each other, one trying to save the other, both hoping they can connect, maybe. Two wounded animals, tending each other’s wounds. In this instance, Elizabeth was too far gone to even really notice what Philip was doing, but you could tell, on some level, that she was glad he was there, tethering her to reality. In that quiet, dirty, sad house, it was so obvious that they were both hanging on by a thread.

[Conan Troutman]

13 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They might have a time lag on the tracing the call and getting to the location, but what about recognizing his voice?  Obviously, Stan would be listening to it and he might pick up that it's Philip's voice.  The voice recognition was my concern. 

I'm sure he would use some trick to alter his voice. Even if it's something as low tech as clamping your nose or putting a hand kerchief over the microphone. 

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

I'm sure he would use some trick to alter his voice. Even if it's something as low tech as clamping your nose or putting a hand kerchief over the microphone. 

Okay. Makes sense.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They might have a time lag on the tracing the call and getting to the location, but what about recognizing his voice?  Obviously, Stan would be listening to it and he might pick up that it's Philip's voice.  The voice recognition was my concern. 

I assumed that when they talked about him contacting them they meant it in a more complicated way than him just calling them up so they would address these concerns.

[TimWil]

Something tells me that's not the last we've seen of Gaad OR Martha.

[lulee]

24 minutes ago, TimWil said:

Something tells me that's not the last we've seen of Gaad OR Martha.

Definitely not the last of Gaad. Martha, I'm not sure. Maybe if at the end of the series, Philip goes back to Russia, he'll check on her.

It felt consistent for me that Philip didn't get emotional or (even more) confessional with Martha in their goodbye. They had a final night together, which probably infuriated Elizabeth, and shared a closeness then.

[Conan Troutman]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I assumed that when they talked about him contacting them they meant it in a more complicated way than him just calling them up so they would address these concerns.

That could be true. Maybe arrange for a good opportunity to contact them so the FBI can't even listen in. Have someone follow them so Philip can call them in a restaurant or something like that. I still think it would be safer to call them rather than contacting them in person, just in case they're under surveillance. But I do think Philip wants to speak to them and not just send a written message.

[soapfaninnc]

3 hours ago, madam magpie said:

 

That mark a few seasons ago who beat the shit out of her during creepy sex wasn't enough for you?

No, because then she wasn't coming across the way she is now. I don't want a mark to beat her up - I'd like to see her go against an American version of her - a female agent who could actually hold her own and not shown to be a keystone cop like Gaad and whatshisname were.