S06.E02: Home

[OakGoblinFly]

On 5/2/2016 at 1:12 AM, Alayne Stone said:

ETA: I'm super happy Ghost did not have to be sacrificed for Jon to come back either. I know some of us were worried about that. Ghost has been getting a good amount of screen time these past two episodes. Hopefully he doesn't disappear after this.

I think that we've seen so much of Ghost is becuase Jon warged into Ghost so he was only mostly dead not not most sincerely dead - and when the magical sponge bath happened, Jon left Ghost and became Jon again.

Well, that's the story I'm writing in my head anyway.  =)

[stillshimpy]

Someone upthread wondered how the Wildlings would cope with a resurrected Jon.   It's an interesting question, but Tormund was on team "Let's try to raise the dead, shall we?"  so he made his peace with it.  Also, as long as Jon doesn't have ice-blue eyes, it doesn't seem like they'll associate him with wights/zombonis/others.   

It's actually the Men of the Watch who ought to be freaked the hell out.  

Plus, I think the key difference between Beric's many and varied resurrections and Jon's is that Jon wasn't really resurrected by magic wielded by Melisandre, or focused through another person.   Does that make sense?  Mel finishes her really rather goofy attempt, burning hair and laying on of hands, that just looked far too simplistic and then kudos to the actor, she had doubts aplenty.   

They leave, Jon's body is just in the room with Ghost and ....there he is.  So whatever Thoros and Beric were doing with the kiss of life seemed to be channeling a power that they could harness and focusing it.  Whatever Mel was attempting to do seemed to have failed, but her preparations actually reminded me of Arya in the house of Black and White, washing the bodies before they are carted off and their faces added to the Many Faced god's hall of assassin fame.  

Just saying, it looks like Mel gave Jon a needed hair cut and bath, but that whatever brought him back to life was something that wasn't heeding the call of Mel's brazier.   Or maybe it was, but it really didn't look that way to me.  

[OakGoblinFly]

On 5/2/2016 at 2:09 AM, J----av said:

 

 This is what bothers me too. Davos and SHireen had one of the closest relationships in the whole show, but Davos hasn't even acknowledged her death (or Stannis's really) and is all about Jon for some reason. It makes no sense

While I think Davos would have wanted to see Shireen again, he sees the big picture and realizes that the realm's best chance of surviving the Others and White Walkers is Jon and his ability to unite the Wildings.

 

To me, it makes perfect sense that he's willing to (temporarily) put aside his distrust/dislike of Melisandre for the good of the realm.

On 5/2/2016 at 3:44 AM, J----av said:

 If Jon on the show warged into ghost that the show did a terrible job setting that up

The show has shown Jon warging before; he had "dreams" and there were the conversations with the Wilding who could warg (Skinwalker, Skinchanger - something like that - at times I get names and timelines mixed up).  My friends who haven't read the book thought that Jon warged into Ghost and then back into his own body.

[stillshimpy]

The show has shown Jon warging before; he had "dreams"

When did the show depict Jon having a dream?  I remember Bran's dreams and he's encountered Jon and Robb in them, as well as Catelyn, but I don't recall any of Jon's dreams.  I remember them from the books, but it came as a giant shock to me when it turned out all the Stark kids are wargs to one extent or another.  

[OakGoblinFly]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:20 AM, benteen said:

Agreed that the Theon thing is odd.  He doesn't want to be forgiven and believe he deserves his punishment.  Great, then escort Sansa to the Wall and then accept that Jon will kill you.  Hell, I thought he was going to ask Brienne to behead him.  It would have worked since Oathkeeper is made from Ned's old greatsword.  But apparently Theon doesn't want to die.  Theon will no doubt make the Iron Islands stuff more interesting but I always liked him interacting with the Starks a lot more.

For the record, the current Iron Islands storyline is already a lot better than the entire Dorne storyline.

I suppose one could say that Theon feels death is too good for him; that he has to live with the torment, guilt, and knowledge of all the wrongs he has committed and that he needs to spend the rest of his life making amends (though he never can).

[AliShibaz]

Earlier in this thread, someone asked how it was that the very large man who was guarding Cersei was able to find out so very quickly about that fool who was boasting about Cersei licking her lips. By the way, is there any way we can know just who that large man is? Are we to assume he is The Hound and he wasn't killed by Brienne? People on this show can be very hard to kill - at least permanently.

Anyway, I'd like to suggest that the reason that large man found out so quickly was to give the audience a signal. It was about the High Sparrow saying words to the effect, "We are poor and lowly. But we are many and the many can easily overthrow the few. I think this signal was that although that may be true, the High Sparrow may rule a few very dedicated fanatics. But the majority of people in King's Landing feel the same way about those fanatics that we (the audience) do. I would expect to see the High Sparrow and his band of fanatics fall very easily. Without any need for violence or a big fight. Just a few words to make them realize they are not "the many" after all. They are just a bunch of goofs equivalent to the Hari Krishnas. They are ripe for a fall and I hope to see that soon. I hate them for fucking with Queen Margaery.

Edited May 3, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Haleth]

22 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

Earlier in this thread, someone asked how it was that the very large man who was guarding Cersei was able to find out so very quickly about that fool who was boasting about Cersei licking her lips. By the way, is there any way we can know just who that large man is? Are we to assume he is The Hound and he wasn't killed by Brienne? People on this show can be very hard to kill - at least permanently.

No, he is Gregor Clegane, the Mountain.

"I drink and I know things."  My new personal motto.

The line that made me do a spit take?  Tommen telling Cersei she had raised him to be strong.  Must be opposite day in Kings Landing.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Haleth

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

Whatever Mel was attempting to do [in her efforts to resurrect Jon Snow] seemed to have failed

Splutter, WaitWhat?  StillShimpy, you are suggesting that perhaps Jon's resurrection was independent of Melisandre and the Lord of Light?  Holy Moly.    

Edited May 3, 2016 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[stillshimpy]

  StillShimpy, you are suggesting that perhaps Jon's resurrection was independent of Melisandre and the Lord of Light?  Holy Moly.    

Well, certainly independent of anything Melisandre did.  She gave him a much needed sponge bath and haircut, but it looked to me like whatever she did failed, not that it was some delayed reaction.  

I don't know what brought Jon back.  I don't know if Mel will think "Zounds, look what I did!"  but if anything, it looked more to me like it had something to do with Ghost.  I know in the show there's no proof of Jon being a Warg and there really hasn't been a suggestion of it. 

Melisandre's ablutions seemed more like body preparation than accomplishing anything.  She cleaned up the house, something else moved in the furniture.  That's what it looked like to me.  I could be wrong, but I don't think Melisandre succeeded in anything other than helping everyone protect Jon's body for long enough for whatever else was at work to get the job done. 

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Someone upthread wondered how the Wildlings would cope with a resurrected Jon.   It's an interesting question, but Tormund was on team "Let's try to raise the dead, shall we?"  so he made his peace with it.  Also, as long as Jon doesn't have ice-blue eyes, it doesn't seem like they'll associate him with wights/zombonis/others.   

It's actually the Men of the Watch who ought to be freaked the hell out.  

Plus, I think the key difference between Beric's many and varied resurrections and Jon's is that Jon wasn't really resurrected by magic wielded by Melisandre, or focused through another person.   Does that make sense?  Mel finishes her really rather goofy attempt, burning hair and laying on of hands, that just looked far too simplistic and then kudos to the actor, she had doubts aplenty.   

They leave, Jon's body is just in the room with Ghost and ....there he is.  So whatever Thoros and Beric were doing with the kiss of life seemed to be channeling a power that they could harness and focusing it.  Whatever Mel was attempting to do seemed to have failed, but her preparations actually reminded me of Arya in the house of Black and White, washing the bodies before they are carted off and their faces added to the Many Faced god's hall of assassin fame.  

Just saying, it looks like Mel gave Jon a needed hair cut and bath, but that whatever brought him back to life was something that wasn't heeding the call of Mel's brazier.   Or maybe it was, but it really didn't look that way to me.  

They (writers) totally left it ambiguous, with just Ghost there sleeping like a corpse and Jon a corpse.

The writers can say no warging but they visually showed another side of the coin.

 

INCASE anyone wants to know:

Speaking of the resurrection, David J. Peterson, the show’s creator of High Valyrian, has helpfully published a translation of Melisandre’s High Valyrian dialogue spoken over Jon’s body in “Home.”

This is what she said (in High Valyrian):

Zȳhys ōñoso jehikagon Āeksiot epi, se gīs hen sȳndrorro jemagon.
“We ask the Lord to shine his light, and lead a soul out of darkness.”

Zȳhys perzys stepagon Āeksio Ōño jorepi, se morghūltas lȳs qēlītsos sikagon.
“We beg the Lord to share his fire, and light a candle that has gone out.”

Hen sȳndrorro, ōños. Hen ñuqīr, perzys. Hen morghot, glaeson.
“From darkness, light. From ashes, fire. From death, life.”

 

ETA: prayer added

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing
Mel's prayer.

[Avaleigh]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

As far as the sword, I don't think whoever needs it needs to kill any one to temper it, now what is the sword that fights the darkness there are a few candidates ( I can remember two or three maybe four )

1. Starks ICE re forged and split in two by Tywin forming Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, was hard to split but per Tobho Mott Valayrian swords have a memory and will try to get back into it's original shape, it's already tempered no sacrifice needed.

2. House Daynes sword Dawn : The name alone denotes light, again forge and tempered no sacrificed needed

3. The Nights Watch- it's all in their words

4. Lastly something in the crypts of Winterfell, what?? maybe the original ICE taken by the victor of the previous fight for the Dawn.

Maybe there is more, maybe Samwell will find the answer.

Add more folks.

I think there's a reason the books gave us the background on AA and Lightbringer. If AA really does need to be reborn then why wouldn't Lightbringer need to be remade as well? So far I don't think House Dayne or Dawn have even been mentioned on the show, have they? 

I think that ICE is ICE. Mainly because I feel like it's stretches credulity that the story of Lightbringer would be lost within the Stark family lore if the same people have had Lightbringer all of this time. Why would the sword be renamed if it was literally Lightbringer? To me they sound like totally different swords. I have no doubt that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail will be instrumental in fighting against the Others since they'll need all the Valyrian steel and dragonglass that they can get their hands on, but I don't think Lightbringer is just going to be any random Valyrian sword like Longclaw or Heartsbane. 

No sacrifice was made with the sword that Stannis and Mel were trying to claim was Lightbringer. There's something missing to the equation and I'm guessing that Jon and/or Dany are going to be key to making the real Lightbringer happen. I lean towards Jon being the one to wield Lightbringer over Dany because Dany isn't trained with a sword and seems like she's unlikely to start now.  

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

Anyway, I'd like to suggest that the reason that large man found out so quickly was to give the audience a signal. It was about the High Sparrow saying words to the effect, "We are poor and lowly. But we are many and the many can easily overthrow the few. I think this signal was that although that may be true, the High Sparrow may rule a few very dedicated fanatics. But the majority of people in King's Landing feel the same way about those fanatics that we (the audience) do. I would expect to see the High Sparrow and his band of fanatics fall very easily. Without any need for violence or a big fight. Just a few words to make them realize they are not "the many" after all. They are just a bunch of goofs equivalent to the Hari Krishnas. They are ripe for a fall and I hope to see that soon. I hate them for fucking with Queen Margaery.

I disagree.  The Lannisters' hold on power is extraordinarily tenuous at this point.  "The Crown", which at this point is equivalent to the Lannisters, is deeply in debt (even for all the gold supposedly held at Casterly Rock).  Everyone knows Tywin was the true power in the family.  No one respects Tommen, he's a child.  Everyone hates Cersei (she's pissed them all off) and as a woman she's not seen as even worthy of consideration.  Jaime is a cripple (having lost the only thing that would've inspired fear: his sword hand).  

At this point, the armed forces that are reliably available to the Lannisters consist of their own troops and the gold cloaks of the city watch, along with the Kings' Guard.

Indeed, Cersei's predicament of being essentially on house arrest (another play on the title "home") is a metaphor for how the Lannister power base doesn't extend much beyond the walls of the Red Keep.

We know from the crowds reaction when the Lannisters saw Myrcella off to Dorne at the harbor, in which they were practically killed by the mob (and some were) that the "ordinary people" of Kings Landing can't stand the Lannisters.  The war created massive poverty and privation.  And, as Kramer said to Jerry about his "Cubans", when they get restless "they come for el presidente".

It was in that environment that Cersei, short-sighted fool that she is, agreed to allow a band of religious fanatics to arm themselves.  If the High Sparrow and his followers decide to openly revolt against the Crown, he and his Sparrows will have a multitude of violent followers who just want to see the Lannisters strung up from trees (even if they don't care a wit about the High Sparrow's theology.)

Edited May 3, 2016 by Alapaki

[GrailKing]

9 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I think there's a reason the books gave us the background on AA and Lightbringer. If AA really does need to be reborn then why wouldn't Lightbringer need to be remade as well? So far I don't think House Dayne or Dawn have even been mentioned on the show, have they? 

I think that ICE is ICE. Mainly because I feel like it's stretches credulity that the story of Lightbringer would be lost within the Stark family lore if the same people have had Lightbringer all of this time. Why would the sword be renamed if it was literally Lightbringer? To me they sound like totally different swords. I have no doubt that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail will be instrumental in fighting against the Others since they'll need all the Valyrian steel and dragonglass that they can get their hands on, but I don't think Lightbringer is just going to be any random Valyrian sword like Longclaw or Heartsbane. 

No sacrifice was made with the sword that Stannis and Mel were trying to claim was Lightbringer. There's something missing to the equation and I'm guessing that Jon and/or Dany are going to be key to making the real Lightbringer happen. I lean towards Jon being the one to wield Lightbringer over Dany because Dany isn't trained with a sword and seems like she's unlikely to start now.  

What if Lightbringer is still in existence just hidden or disguised?

Many roads will lead to the same place, which road will it be?

Love GRRM's puzzles!   :>)

[Avaleigh]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

What if Lightbringer is still in existence just hidden or disguised?

Many roads will lead to the same place, which road will it be?

Love GRRM's puzzles!   :>)

Right now I'm guessing that the hidden swords that are going to be found are Dark Sister and possibly Blackfyre. Having a third sword conveniently pop up seems like it would be a bit much which is another reason I lean towards Lightbringer needing to be remade and that it will take a sacrifice to make it happen. 

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Right now I'm guessing that the hidden swords that are going to be found are Dark Sister and possibly Blackfyre. Having a third sword conveniently pop up seems like it would be a bit much which is another reason I lean towards Lightbringer needing to be remade and that it will take a sacrifice to make it happen. 

OR Lightbringer isn't a sword at all.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

No, he is Gregor Clegane, the Mountain.

Just as a gloss on what Haleth said, by way of explanation:

1. The Mountain was severely wounded by Oberyn Martell in the trial by combat in Season 4 and was near death, since Oberyn used a spear covered with poison.

2. Cersei charged Qyburn with reviving the Mountain, by any means necessary. Qyburn continued working on reviving the Mountain through Season 5, we are to assume through some pretty unorthodox means, since Qyburn was kicked out of the maesters for being too bold in his experiments.

3. At the end of Season 5, Qyburn introduced Cersei to the Mountain, only his face was blue and he was dressed as a Kingsguard. Qyburn informed Cersei that this was "Ser Robert Strong," who had taken a vow of silence and would not speak until all of Cersei's enemies were dead. He seems to be serving as Cersei's pet bodyguard and enforcer.

In the books, the Mountain actually died after the duel as a result of Oberyn's poison. His skull was provided to the Martells, but it's hinted that Book Robert Strong actually has another head attached...thus the fandom nickname of "Frankengregor."

Edited May 3, 2016 by Eyes High

[Chris24601]

Yeah... that definitely wasn't the Red God's Kiss of Life like Thoros did to Berric. That was both immediate and didn't require anything but words and maybe 'breath' from Thoros.

I think the most obvious difference for me was the use of WATER and not fire in the ritual. Sure, Mel cut bits of hair from him and burned them in a small fire, but the bulk of what she was doing was washing him, pouring watering onto his head in a way reminiscent of Baptism.

The next thing was the wording. Thoros spoke his prayers in the common tongue ("Lord, bring this man back from death and darkness") while Mel used... some other Language. It MIGHT have been Valyrian, but it didn't quite sound like it to me. I wonder if it wasn't something from Asshai.

Regardless, while it might have been a religious ritual Mel was performing, I don't think it was one to the Red God. If it worked at all and wasn't the work of some force we haven't seen yet (I find Stillshimpy's analysis that all Mel did was lay the groundwork to be quite plausible), then I suspect it was calling on some older and deeper magic than that of the Red God.

I'm left wondering if we aren't going to see something next episode that sheds greater light on it. It wouldn't be first time events have been shown out of sequence to further dramatic tension. Could we start next episode like we did this one with Bran's visions; this time of the Tower of Joy; and from it Bran learns of Jon's importance and witness him performing some Old God ritual (with or without a blood sacrifice) before we cut back to Jon waking up? Its not a structure we've really seen from Game of Thrones, but I can't say that it can be ruled out for that reason simply due to the fact that Jon's resurrection could actually be the most pivotal event in the entire series (the moment the hero returns from death) and focusing a good chunk of an episode building up to Bran's choice to raise Jon would undermine the shock value and surprise of both Mel's attempt and apparent failure and then Jon's awakening all being condensed into a single scene.

[Alapaki]

31 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

OR Lightbringer isn't a sword at all.

This is what I'm thinking as well.  Remember, thus far, Melisandre doesn't have a great track-record with interpreting prophecy.  The fact that she's convinced it's an actual sword would be a good reason to bet against that proposition.

[Avaleigh]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Yeah... that definitely wasn't the Red God's Kiss of Life like Thoros did to Berric. That was both immediate and didn't require anything but words and maybe 'breath' from Thoros.

I think the most obvious difference for me was the use of WATER and not fire in the ritual. Sure, Mel cut bits of hair from him and burned them in a small fire, but the bulk of what she was doing was washing him, pouring watering onto his head in a way reminiscent of Baptism.

The next thing was the wording. Thoros spoke his prayers in the common tongue ("Lord, bring this man back from death and darkness") while Mel used... some other Language. It MIGHT have been Valyrian, but it didn't quite sound like it to me. I wonder if it wasn't something from Asshai.

Regardless, while it might have been a religious ritual Mel was performing, I don't think it was one to the Red God. If it worked at all and wasn't the work of some force we haven't seen yet (I find Stillshimpy's analysis that all Mel did was lay the groundwork to be quite plausible), then I suspect it was calling on some older and deeper magic than that of the Red God.

I'm left wondering if we aren't going to see something next episode that sheds greater light on it. It wouldn't be first time events have been shown out of sequence to further dramatic tension. Could we start next episode like we did this one with Bran's visions; this time of the Tower of Joy; and from it Bran learns of Jon's importance and witness him performing some Old God ritual (with or without a blood sacrifice) before we cut back to Jon waking up? Its not a structure we've really seen from Game of Thrones, but I can't say that it can be ruled out for that reason simply due to the fact that Jon's resurrection could actually be the most pivotal event in the entire series (the moment the hero returns from death) and focusing a good chunk of an episode building up to Bran's choice to raise Jon would undermine the shock value and surprise of both Mel's attempt and apparent failure and then Jon's awakening all being condensed into a single scene.

I briefly wondered if it could be the Old Tongue. 

If Lightbringer isn't a sword then I can see it being Dany. 

That being said, Melisandre isn't our only source for the information that Lightbringer was a sword. The world book makes it seem like the story of lightbringer is something that is commonly accepted so it's not like this is strictly Mel's interpretation. 

[DigitalCount]

Also, Jon  is the result of Rhaegar, ahem, "stabbing" and killing Lyanna, which "forged" him, so to speak. I think he's much ?ore likely to be Lightbringer.

[GrailKing]

20 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

This is what I'm thinking as well.  Remember, thus far, Melisandre doesn't have a great track-record with interpreting prophecy.  The fact that she's convinced it's an actual sword would be a good reason to bet against that proposition.

I believed since I first saw the theory on Westeros.org by Apple Martini that it could be the NW.

So someone needs to reforge them into a unit and battle their true enemies.

ETA: Everything is in Old Nan's stories, the Wall will stand as long as the Watch stays true.

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing
Old Nan :>(

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

The Hound was Joffrey's personal guard when Sansa was in KL.  Now, Brienne has no idea they had any greater interaction than that, but she'd know Sansa knows who he is.

But would Brienne know that the Hound was Joffrey's personal guard?  She didn't get to KL until after the Hound had left.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

But would Brienne know that the Hound was Joffrey's personal guard?

Well, she reads detailed accounts of the royal family in Westeros Weekly at the market, just like everybody. ; )

Edited May 3, 2016 by sacrebleu

[AnnaMayWong]

... I don't believe that Melisandre had ANYthing to do with Jon's resurrection. I think his rising is something heretofore not seen nor even discussed in The Story hence the delay. Furthermore, I doubt Jon will lose any aspect of self, but he will gain some abilities/powers to actually Combat the oncoming 'Wight Winter'.

[AnnaMayWong]

...Or, as OakGoblinFly stated, Jon UNintentionally warged into Ghost then, later, out of Ghost into his own body.

[GrailKing]

30 minutes ago, BookElitist said:

... I don't believe that Melisandre had ANYthing to do with Jon's resurrection. I think his rising is something heretofore not seen nor even discussed in The Story hence the delay. Furthermore, I doubt Jon will lose any aspect of self, but he will gain some abilities/powers to actually Combat the oncoming 'Wight Winter'.

Well as I said up thread the writers made it ambiguous and I recently ETA the prayer said by her that the language guy wrote for the scene, if you did not see it.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

But would Brienne know that the Hound was Joffrey's personal guard?  She didn't get to KL until after the Hound had left.

The Hound was well-known, and regardless, Brienne has Podrick with her.

[blixie]

Quote

This is what I'm thinking as well.  Remember, thus far, Melisandre doesn't have a great track-record with interpreting prophecy.  The fact that she's convinced it's an actual sword would be a good reason to bet against that proposition.

Hee, as a non Melisandre fan I'm with you, but Aemon also seemed to think it was a sword, and I tend to think Aemon is one of the wisest people in A Song of Ice and Fire. And I don't want to see Dany reduced to a tool that AA "wields". Plus I love magic swords and Lightbringer seems like an obvious homage to Excalibur.

 

Count me in as thinking Mel had not much to do with Jon's resurrection, or that she was using older magic that isn't a part of Lord of Light business, unless Baylon's death paid for Jon's return to the living, I refuse to accept that any "god" would justify the murder of Shireen. But Baylon was as dick who arrogantly courted defeat again and again, so his murder is fine as an exchange.

Edited May 3, 2016 by blixie

[GrailKing]

19 minutes ago, blixie said:

Hee, as a non Melisandre fan I'm with you, but Aemon also seemed to think it was a sword, and I tend to think Aemon is one of the wisest people in A Song of Ice and Fire. And I don't want to see Dany reduced to a tool that AA "wields". Plus I love magic swords and Lghtbringer seems like an obvious homage to Excalibur.

 

Count me in as thinking Mel had not much to do with Jon's resurrection, or that she was using older magic that isn't a part of Lord of Light business, unless Baylon's death paid for Jon's return to the living, I refuse to accept that any "god" would justify the murder of Shireen. But Baylon was as dick who arrogantly courted defeat again and again, so his murder is fine as an exchange.

Well now it's even murkier with her printed prayer released.

[mac123x]

One interpretation of the Lightbringer prophecy is that it is a metaphor for the dragons.  Dany "forged" them in the fire of Drogo's funeral pyre.

 

Another alternative is Tyrion's (and Marywn's) opinions of prophecy:  "Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head".

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, BookElitist said:

... I don't believe that Melisandre had ANYthing to do with Jon's resurrection. I think his rising is something heretofore not seen nor even discussed in The Story hence the delay. Furthermore, I doubt Jon will lose any aspect of self, but he will gain some abilities/powers to actually Combat the oncoming 'Wight Winter'.

That would be one hell of a coincidence in terms of the timing. If Mel didn't have anything to do with it why not have Jon wake up on his own while she's still in her room thinking about how wrong she's been? This is on top of us knowing that red priests can bring people back in addition to seeing for ourselves that she has some kind of real deal power that goes beyond illusionist tricks. 

That Davos thinks she's the real deal is enough to persuade me that she absolutely played a part in bringing Jon back and the inclusion of Thoros and Beric in the story was to prepare us for this very possibility. 

I've always felt that the showrunners feel that Lady Stoneheart would somehow take away from Jon's resurrection and that's the main reason they chose not to include it. (As opposed to the oft made claim that it simply boils down to D&D "hating" the Starks.)

ETA:

Blixie, you beat me too it about thinking that Maester Aemon thought it was a sword. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Avaleigh

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, mac123x said:

One interpretation of the Lightbringer prophecy is that it is a metaphor for the dragons.  Dany "forged" them in the fire of Drogo's funeral pyre.

 

Another alternative is Tyrion's (and Marywn's) opinions of prophecy:  "Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head".

I actually forgot that one LOL, Ill give you a like   :>)

[nksarmi]

I said this in the season six thread - but it applies here. I could easily believe that Mel's magic resurrected John's body by petitioning the Lord of Light AND that John had warged into Ghost. I think the fact that Ghost was in close proximately to John at this death (not close enough to touch, but not far away either), that Ghost was with him while they were locked in that room (hell just the fact that Ed was able to bring Ghost to the room and Ghost recognized everyone in the room as a friend might suggest that John was within him), and that the camera focused a great deal on Ghost during Mel's attempted resurrection implies that Ghost might have been housing John for a bit.

I think the shot of Ghost waking up right before John's eyes was John realizing he could now leave Ghost and return to his body. The only thing that could have made it more clear to me would have been if Ghost licked John's face before he woke up.

And they could easily cover this possibility with a few lines from John to Mel upon his resurrection. Then Mel could be the one to confirm he's a warg and perhaps that leads her to wondering what else might be magical about him?

[Alapaki]

5 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I think the shot of Ghost waking up right before John's eyes was John realizing he could now leave Ghost and return to his body. The only thing that could have made it more clear to me would have been if Ghost licked John's face before he woke up.

I agree this is certainly within the scope of interpretation left open by the way it was filmed, and has to be weighted fairly heavily given what we've been told of warging.  

But, an equally plausible interpretation is that Ghost, as a direwolf, has extraordinarily strong senses and with his strong connection to Jon he was able to sense Jon's return before Jon actually woke up.

[Tikichick]

Just some random thoughts I've had about the situation with Jon and references to Lightbringer.

A lot of camera focus was spent on Jon's blood, a lot.  Several characters touched it and looked at their fingers or simply looked very consideringly at the blood in particular.

Ghost licked Jon's body in episode one. 

Melisandre touched Jon's cheek in episode one and then was able to feel the cold.

Even if the show doesn't cover details as fully as the books, time has been spent on getting to know an expert sword maker with a notable pedigree and making sure the audience knows Needle is significant for some reason.

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Just some random thoughts I've had about the situation with Jon and references to Lightbringer.

A lot of camera focus was spent on Jon's blood, a lot.  Several characters touched it and looked at their fingers or simply looked very consideringly at the blood in particular.

Ghost licked Jon's body in episode one. 

Melisandre touched Jon's cheek in episode one and then was able to feel the cold.

Even if the show doesn't cover details as fully as the books, time has been spent on getting to know an expert sword maker with a notable pedigree and making sure the audience knows Needle is significant for some reason.

Ifwe're talking Tobho Mott, he's only mentioned as teaching and taking in Gendry, in the two swords episode Tywyn states he had to send for someone from Valayria, the only other sword maker mentioned was Miken and he's dead I believe.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Ifwe're talking Tobho Mott, he's only mentioned as teaching and taking in Gendry, in the two swords episode Tywyn states he had to send for someone from Valayria, the only other sword maker mentioned was Miken and he's dead I believe.

Gendry himself is a sword maker of some note, and a character already known to the TV audience.  Mikken is sadly dead in the book, and it would seem very likely in the show as well.

[GrailKing]

Just now, Tikichick said:

Gendry himself is a sword maker of some note, and a character already known to the TV audience.  Mikken is sadly dead in the book, and it would seem very likely in the show as well.

He's known for his bull helmet, and was trained as a smithy but in show he's not shown to know the magic spells to forge Valaryian steel, book there's a bit more info but not much.

Would the watchers even remember him, last time they saw him he was adrift at sea.

[Avaleigh]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

He's known for his bull helmet, and was trained as a smithy but in show he's not shown to know the magic spells to forge Valaryian steel, book there's a bit more info but not much.

Would the watchers even remember him, last time they saw him he was adrift at sea.

I think the audiences would remember him and even if they don't that's what the recap before the episode is for. 

I can see Gendry being able to forge it especially if he has Mel's help. It would be kind of interesting for them to meet again. I wonder if she'd still feel the same way about burning alive a person with king's blood. 

[GrailKing]

I didn't forget him by the way, they just did not bring out he's a notable sword maker, he's an apprentice who's boss gave him to the NW and went to the BWB then went adrift.

[MrWhyt]

29 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Gendry himself is a sword maker of some note, and a character already known to the TV audience.  Mikken is sadly dead in the book, and it would seem very likely in the show as well.

He's an apprentice blacksmith, the only noteworthy thing about him is that he's one of Robert's bastards.

[RedheadZombie]

Is Bran pronouncing Lyanna's name differently than we've heard in the past?  I thought it was pronounced Lie-onna, but Bran sounds like he's saying Lee-onna.  Maybe I'm influenced by the pronunciation of Lysa.

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

They (writers) totally left it ambiguous, with just Ghost there sleeping like a corpse and Jon a corpse.

The writers can say no warging but they visually showed another side of the coin.

Maybe they're playing both sides.   Even if Jon didn't warg into Ghost, I would find it hard to believe that Ghost would not have wanted to stay near Jon's body, or react to Jon being killed.  So it's been set up for either scenario to work.  I thought at one point that Melisandre seemed to react to something as she was pressing her hands to Jon's chest.

2 hours ago, blixie said:

Count me in as thinking Mel had not much to do with Jon's resurrection, or that she was using older magic that isn't a part of Lord of Light business, unless Baylon's death paid for Jon's return to the living, I refuse to accept that any "god" would justify the murder of Shireen. But Baylon was as dick who arrogantly courted defeat again and again, so his murder is fine as an exchange.

The Old Testament is loaded with cruel acts by God.  In fact, He stands back and allows Job's entire family to die in order to test Job's faith.  I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM modeled his religions after the Old Testament.

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

I agree this is certainly within the scope of interpretation left open by the way it was filmed, and has to be weighted fairly heavily given what we've been told of warging.  

But, an equally plausible interpretation is that Ghost, as a direwolf, has extraordinarily strong senses and with his strong connection to Jon he was able to sense Jon's return before Jon actually woke up.

I actually find it much more moving that Ghost sensed Jon's resurrection and reacted.  The show seems to cater to fans who love Jon/Ghost interaction, and Dany/Dragons interaction.  In fact, in the book isn't it the smell of blood that brings Drogon to save Dany?  I prefer the show version that he was drawn by her fear.

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

I said this in the season six thread - but it applies here. I could easily believe that Mel's magic resurrected John's body by petitioning the Lord of Light AND that John had warged into Ghost. I think the fact that Ghost was in close proximately to John at this death (not close enough to touch, but not far away either), that Ghost was with him while they were locked in that room (hell just the fact that Ed was able to bring Ghost to the room and Ghost recognized everyone in the room as a friend might suggest that John was within him), and that the camera focused a great deal on Ghost during Mel's attempted resurrection implies that Ghost might have been housing John for a bit.

I think the shot of Ghost waking up right before John's eyes was John realizing he could now leave Ghost and return to his body. The only thing that could have made it more clear to me would have been if Ghost licked John's face before he woke up.

And they could easily cover this possibility with a few lines from John to Mel upon his resurrection. Then Mel could be the one to confirm he's a warg and perhaps that leads her to wondering what else might be magical about him?

I do think it was significant that Jon woke up as soon as he was alone in the room with Ghost. I do think that has to matter on some level.

Also, I do think the fact that Ghost is Ghost's name has to matter. Shaggy Dog is wild, Greywind was fast and everywhere in a battle, Lady was the gentlest of the wolves and Nymeria was fierce and in the books a warrior queen. Summer I have theories about based on his name and I think Ghost must have something to do with the afterlife. Those names have meaning and I think once Jon explains, we'll find out that Ghost somehow kept him alive.

[meep.meep]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

But would Brienne know that the Hound was Joffrey's personal guard?  She didn't get to KL until after the Hound had left.

Before the Hound was Joffrey's personal guard, he was Robert's personal guard.  Not too much of a stretch to think that Renly might have mentioned him.

[glowbug]

I agree with Avaleigh. The timing of Jon's resurrection so soon after Melisandre did her thing is too big of coincidence. Even if she wasn't the one who brought him back she had to have done something that allowed him to return to his body. It's entirely possible he warged into Ghost although if that is the case I wish the show would have laid the foundation a bit better. One thing I dislike about the show is that the writers love cheap surprises unlike GRRM who tends to set up his twists. I'd rather figure out the surprise than have it come from out of nowhere. Take R + L = J. There is no way anyone would have guessed Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar without the books. The show doesn't even hint at it. GRRM sets up the possibility from book one and throws in some more hints along the way. I much prefer his approach even though I was able to figure it out long before the reveal. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by glowbug

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I agree with Avaleigh. The timing of Jon's resurrection so soon after Melisandre did her thing is too big of coincidence. Even if she wasn't the one who brought him back she had to have done something that allowed him to return to his body. It's entirely possible he warged into Ghost although if that is the case I wish the show would have laid the foundation a bit better. One thing I dislike about the show is that the writers love cheap surprises unlike GRRM who tends to set up his twists. I'd rather figure out the surprise than have it come from out of nowhere. Take R + L = J. There is no way anyone would have guessed Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar without the books. The show doesn't even hint at it. GRRM sets up the possibility from book one and throws in some more hints along the way. I much prefer his approach even though I was able to figure it out long before the reveal. 

Whoa whoa whoa, you wrong!

You may not have my name, but you have my blood, Robert,Ned and Lyanna's statue, you went off to war and came home with another womans baby.Sansa and LF talking about Lyanna etc, and I'm sure I missed one or two.

My wife figured it out after the crypt scene and Neds words about blood and name and she doesn't read and GOT isn't her type of show.

[Statman]

23 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Before the Hound was Joffrey's personal guard, he was Robert's personal guard. 

The Hound was never Robert's personal guard.  His only interaction with Robert in both the books and the show is when he stops on Robert's command during his fight with the Mountain. 

[MissLucas]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

My wife figured it out after the crypt scene and Neds words about blood and name and she doesn't read and GOT isn't her type of show.

Yep, also not a book-reader but I was able to figure that out pretty soon into the show. I then went ahead to spoiler-land and was surprised how big of a secret that was supposed to be.

[nksarmi]

6 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I agree with Avaleigh. The timing of Jon's resurrection so soon after Melisandre did her thing is too big of coincidence. Even if she wasn't the one who brought him back she had to have done something that allowed him to return to his body. It's entirely possible he warged into Ghost although if that is the case I wish the show would have laid the foundation a bit better. One thing I dislike about the show is that the writers love cheap surprises unlike GRRM who tends to set up his twists. I'd rather figure out the surprise than have it come from out of nowhere. Take R + L = J. There is no way anyone would have guessed Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar without the books. The show doesn't even hint at it. GRRM sets up the possibility from book one and throws in some more hints along the way. I much prefer his approach even though I was able to figure it out long before the reveal. 

The show has sort of hinted at it, but I'm sure it will be a great surprise when the times comes. I think show hints are as follows:

1. First, we should probably take into account that even though Jon asked if his mother was still living (in season one)- we should assume that Jon's mother is dead. If Jon's mother was alive, would Ned have brought Jon back to live in WF? It seems more likely, he would have just claimed the child and sent him and his mother money while she raised him. Also, keeping that in mind, it also seems likely - given how cold Caitlyn is to Jon - that is Ned didn't specifically need to protect Jon from something, he would have allowed Jon to be raised by his mother's relatives (and sent them money for that task).

2. The repeated mention that Ned is not the type of man to dishonor his wife by fathering a bastard - most recently by Stannis at the Wall. This leads us to believe that Ned's mother is either someone Ned loved very, very much for him to put aside his honor to be with her OR Ned is raising someone else's son as his bastard. If it's the first, it must be a relatively short list of women Ned could have loved so much to dishonor himself, but who also died around that time. It seems like if that was the case - the truth of who Jon's mother is would be more well known. And honestly, I'm not sure why Ned would have kept it such a secret. The secret in and of itself implies something bigger than the girl Ned knocked up while he was away at war.

3. If you accept that Ned might not be Jon's father and that the secret of Jon's parents might be important - there are only a few candidates you can consider. After all, it has to be someone important enough to Ned that he would take on their dishonor as his own. That really only leaves Brandon to hide from Caitlyn what his brother had done or Lyanna.

4. If you consider Lyanna - who would the father be? Certainly not Robert B. So yea - that leaves Rhaegar. Making Jon a bastard Targ. Which explains why the secret is important enough to Ned to cover and why Ned doesn't like talking about it to Robert B (his supposed best friend). Ned is hiding a child that could supplant his friend's rule. Which would explain why Ned would tell no one. Except.....

5. The scene where Ned says goodbye to Jon and smiles and tells him that when they meet again, he will tell Jon about his mother - suggesting that Jon's mother is someone Ned thinks fondly of and would have good things to say about her. This conflicts with the image of her being a bar wench/one night stand that he sought comfort from while away at war. It also tells us that something is about to change that would make Ned more open to talking to Jon about his mother. What? Jon is joining the Night's Watch - forsaking all titles and crowns. Ned probably believes that once this happens he can tell Jon the truth of his parents and nothing bad will come of it since he will no longer have any claim.

6. The show has also implied heavily that Lyanna might have run off with Rhaegar - making the idea of them having a love child more plausible. I am almost certain that when Oberyn talked about what Rhaeghar did to his sister, he positioned it as "running off with some girl" as opposed to "kidnapping and raping" some girl. Just last season when Sansa was talking about the story in the WF crypts - Littlefinger insinuates that he had heard a different version of the story than Lyanna being kidnapped - leaving open the possibility that the girl ran away with the Prince voluntarily. And the show kept some of Barrister's characterizations of Rhaeghar which suggests that he isn't the awful man Robert B always said he was.

Obviously the show doesn't have Ned's repeated memory of "Promise me Ned" as he faces death in season one to really hammer it home - but it won't be totally out of left field when it comes.

[GrailKing]

You made those points well.

Better than my whoa whoas!

LOL