S06.E02: Home

[Hecate7]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The book description of Tyrion.  I've thought he was a Targ, and possibly a chimera for a very long time.  I honestly can't remember when it first occurred to me, but it was fairly early in the books, and kept being reinforced throughout.  Frankly, I was more interested in the chimera side of him, but apparently, at least so far, that is unimportant.

"Hair so blond it seemed white" was probably my first clue though.
 

In the books they are definitely foreshadowing a chimera thing with Tyrion. I think in the womb there was a Targ twin and a Lannister twin. One absorbed the other, which is why Tyrion dreams of being two-headed. One head weeps as he's killing Jaime in his dream, and the other laughs. Tyrion in the books is odd-eyed, like many chimeras. One eye is Lannister green, the other black--possibly purple? And his hair is white. There are a few odd-eyed Targ bastards in the books, and this figures in Tyrion's dream too.

Jaime and Cersei are fraternal twins--it's possible Tyrion was meant to be a set of fraternal twins, too. If the surviving twin is Targ, Tyrion is still a Lannister through his mother and through his absorbed twin. It would fit with his kinslaying storyline--it would mean even before birth he was killing Lannisters. If true, Tywin would have been looking at that black eye and the white hair this whole time, sure Tyrion wasn't his but unable to prove it. We assume that Tywin means "you are not my son," in the way any outraged or disappointed father might, but he may actually be speaking literally. He may have conveniently died before he was able to tell his whole story. If it's that important, we'll probably find out through Bran.

[proserpina65]

Quote

According to IMDB, Aeron Greyjoy was indeed the (delightfully bitchy) priest who informed Yara about the kingsmoot. He was played by Michael Feast, a "Hey! It's That Guy!" if ever I saw one. 

OMG that was Michael Feast?!?!  Wow, I saw him on stage in Measure For Measure eons ago (1995, to be precise).  Cool.

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in fact the only reason to warg a dragon someone else is already riding is to get it to do something they do NOT want it to do.

We don't actually know that.  I mean, it makes sense, but we haven't really been given much info on warging either on the show or in the books.

Edited May 5, 2016 by proserpina65

[nksarmi]

39 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

 

So far, this story doesn't reward good deeds. In fact, no good deed goes unpunished. Look at what sparing Theon Greyjoy did for the Starks. Or Jon's kindness to Ollie, or Danaerys' attempt to be kind to Mirri Muz Dur. Or Ned's attempt at mercy for Cersei and the kids. Just because we like Bran, doesn't mean he'll save Tyrion's life. He may in fact be the death of Tyrion. Tyrion probably won't require anyone to warg any dragon he's riding--in fact the only reason to warg a dragon someone else is already riding is to get it to do something they do NOT want it to do.

 

First - bah! Just because good deeds haven't been rewarded yet.... I'm an eternal optimist.

I understand if you - or anyone else - doesn't agree with me. But please say that so I can be sure I'm explaining this properly. When you say the only reason to warg a dragon someone else is already riding is to.... it makes me feel like you don't understand that I'm proposing that the ONLY WAY Tryion WILL ride a dragon is if Bran is warging it.

Because I do NOT believe that Tyrion is any part Targ.

I could be wrong, but I honestly don't believe that is where Martin is going with this.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Of course you do. It's exactly how the rich and powerful kill each other. He thought he could get a little use out of Tyrion, but Tyrion was always just a place marker for Tywin, and if Joffrey or Cersei poisoned him or had him murdered, as someone DID DO during Blackwater, it would have suited Tywin just fine. Sending Tyrion was not about honoring him, it was about putting him at the mercy of Cersei and Joffrey. Tywin might have been in denial about the twincest but he wasn't an idiot, and he knew Cersei and Joffrey would want to kill Tyrion, and might succeed. In fact someone very nearly did succeed in killing him, and there may have been other attempts which failed.

History is full of examples of queens and kings sending people on "prestigious" assignments, like making them the general of an army or putting them in charge of a province, in order to get them killed. The person can't refuse the assignment so off they go to Ireland or wherever, and either they die, or they infuriatingly survive and their ruler has to come up with a more direct means of offing them. Happens all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was trying to honor Tyrion. I  just seriously doubt that Tywin the strategist removed Tyrion from a dangerous war to one of the most powerful jobs in the nation in hopes that his incompetent daughter and grandson would find a way to kill Tyrion, Tywin would never give someone his job if he didn't think they'd be good at it.

[Oscirus]

sorry

Edited May 5, 2016 by Oscirus
dupe post

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

OMG that was Michael Feast?!?!  Wow, I saw him on stage in Measure For Measure eons ago (1995, to be precise).  Cool.

We don't actually know that.  I mean, it makes sense, but we haven't really been given much info on warging either on the show or in the books.

LOL, if 1995 is eons, I be afraid what you would think of me...... probably like my kids older then dirt. LOL

[MarySNJ]

5 hours ago, nksarmi said:

The only speculation I've seen regarding why Ned would have lied if he was hiding Brandon's bastard would be to spare Catelyn's feelings (since he was her betrothed). To me, it's a stretch to think he would endure 15 years of his wife being bitter toward him and hating Jon to protect "Brandon's memory." I can believe he would do it to protect Lyanna's son's life if he feared someone would kill Jon for being a Targ bastard.

Agreed. Catelyn was aware the men often fathered bastards while off on campaign, and not even that would have been a problem for her - IF Ned had not brought "his" bastard home to live amongst her own children as a reminder of his assumed unfaithfulness and that he'd loved someone else deeply. She may have loved Brandon but they never got a chance to marry. If he'd fathered a bastard before he married her, I don't her feelings would have been that hurt. She would have probably thought the Gods meant for her and Ned to marry and care for their orphaned nephew. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by MarySNJ

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was trying to honor Tyrion. I  just seriously doubt that Tywin the strategist removed Tyrion from a dangerous war to one of the most powerful jobs in the nation in hopes that his incompetent daughter and grandson would find a way to kill Tyrion, Tywin would never give someone his job if he didn't think they'd be good at it.

And given that he hates Tyrion it makes it even more notable that he gave him the job of running the kingdom while he was off fighting the war. If Tyrion gets offed while he is The Hand then that puts the kingdom and more importantly the Lannisters at risk. Tywin would not take the risk of having Joffrey or Cercei in charge in order to be rid of Tyrion.

[Triskan]

On 2/5/2016 at 4:16 AM, stillshimpy said:

Also, poor man's Ewan McGregor threw Balon to his death.  Hey Euron/Ewan, pity you couldn't have done the story a solid and stepped off after him.  

Nooo ! ^^

I'm so looking forward to see show-Euron this season ! 

Loved the little moment when he kept a perfect footing on the bridge during the storm ! Tells a lot about the character !

[stillshimpy]

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Quoting Triskan: Nooo ! ^^

I'm so looking forward to see show-Euron this season !

Actually responding, the hell board? : All right then, you can keep him!   But you're going to have to feed and walk him yourself ;-) 

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by stillshimpy
Trying to beat this quote function to actual death

[magdalene]

I am looking forward to seeing Euron in action. Not because of the character who is one of those books characters I loathe. I want to see if this actor can do something with Euron. He was on BORGEN which I love, and he was terrific in it.

On a different subject, I have been telling myself that Davos does not know that Melisandre had Shireen burned to death. I have such a hard time buying that Davos of all people would be so civil to Mel if he knew.

Edited May 5, 2016 by magdalene

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am looking forward to seeing Euron in action. Not because of the character who is one of those books characters I loathe. I want to see if this actor can do something with Euron. He was on BORGEN which I love, and he was terrific in it.

On a different subject, I have been telling myself that Davos does not know that Melisandre had Shireen burned to death. I have such a hard time buying that Davos of all people would be so civil to Mel if he knew.

Things will shift as he moves south and as

promos show

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

In the books they are definitely foreshadowing a chimera thing with Tyrion. I think in the womb there was a Targ twin and a Lannister twin. One absorbed the other, which is why Tyrion dreams of being two-headed. One head weeps as he's killing Jaime in his dream, and the other laughs. Tyrion in the books is odd-eyed, like many chimeras. One eye is Lannister green, the other black--possibly purple? And his hair is white. There are a few odd-eyed Targ bastards in the books, and this figures in Tyrion's dream too.

Jaime and Cersei are fraternal twins--it's possible Tyrion was meant to be a set of fraternal twins, too. If the surviving twin is Targ, Tyrion is still a Lannister through his mother and through his absorbed twin. It would fit with his kinslaying storyline--it would mean even before birth he was killing Lannisters. If true, Tywin would have been looking at that black eye and the white hair this whole time, sure Tyrion wasn't his but unable to prove it. We assume that Tywin means "you are not my son," in the way any outraged or disappointed father might, but he may actually be speaking literally. He may have conveniently died before he was able to tell his whole story. If it's that important, we'll probably find out through Bran.

Yeah, I completely agree. 

That would make Tyrion both a Targ and a Lannister, which could be interesting.  I never put it together than his "black" eye could be a very dark purple one though.  Good catch.

[Macbeth]

Tywin definitely tried to have Tyrion killed on at least 2 occasions.  The first was during the Battle of the Green Folk (first time we saw Charles Dance).  How massively pissed was Tywin that he had to go to war, draining  the rest of his family finances, because Tyrion was captured?

Pissed enough to put him in the vanguard of the army with Bronn and the Hill Tribes. Tyrion you won your freedom from your captors?  How wonderful.  Tomorrow you will be leading the army into battle, probably won't survive, but everyone has to do their part. 

He survived because Rob pulled a feint, only a couple of thousand of his men fought Tywin, while Rob's larger forces fought Jaime's army and captured him.

I know in the book, he did some fighting, but the show in no way had the $ had that point to show a battle, so Tyrion had an accident beforehand with a member of the Hill Tribes hammer and was knocked unconscious. 

I do appreciate that even though he was unconscious before the battle had begun, he still woke up on the battlefield.  The show knew Tywin's attitude would be - "Conscious, unconscious, Tyrion will still be in the vanguard."  I so miss Charles Dance.

2nd time was the trial a/k/a Tywin no longer has the funds to pay for Tyrion's whoring and drinking, and it is about time that little shit had died.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Macbeth

[glowbug]

I don't find it at all believable that Tywin knew Tyrion was the product of his beloved wife Joanna's rape by Aerys if indeed he is. There is no way he would continue to raise that child and give him all the benefits of being a true born Lannister if he knew. Even if he didn't want to expose Aerys to protect Joanna's memory or to protect his pride, it would have been so easy for him to arrange an accidental death in the years that Tyrion was a child and most vulnerable. I don't see Tywin having any qualms, for example, about suffocating an infant in his crib. Sometimes babies do stop breathing for no reason so no one would have been the wiser. The only possible reason he didn't was because he believed Tyrion to be his son. So in spite of the fact that he hated him for "killing Joanna" and for being a dwarf, something Tywin saw as reflecting negatively on himself as well as a weakness in his son (and we all know how Tywin feels about weakness), he didn't kill him or have him killed. If it turns out that Tyrion is Aerys' son and Tywin did know then I consider it poor writing on GRRM's part because it would be so out of character for Tywin, who has committed and sanctioned many atrocities in this series.

[Hecate7]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was trying to honor Tyrion. I  just seriously doubt that Tywin the strategist removed Tyrion from a dangerous war to one of the most powerful jobs in the nation in hopes that his incompetent daughter and grandson would find a way to kill Tyrion, Tywin would never give someone his job if he didn't think they'd be good at it.

 

Tyrion was the interim manager paving the way for the real boss. The more everybody hated him, the more they would LOVE Tywin. Tywin WAS a strategist, yes. And it is a very common strategy to fill an interim position with someone so bad, you can't possibly fail to look great by comparison. Tiberius chose Caligula as his heir, for that very reason--the more afraid they were of Caligula the longer Tiberius assumed he'd live, and the more they'd love him. Great strategy if you don't really care about the nation, which frankly Tywin does not. He cares about his reputation and his family name, and getting more power, and very often the best way to achieve those goals is NOT by doing the best job. That is why Tyrion is in some ways not as smart as other people. He wants to do the right thing, the smartest thing, the most useful thing, while everybody throws rocks and dung and calls him a "demon monkey." Tywin probably started that whole demon monkey thing himself, to make Joffrey look good and to make himself look better when he arrived.

Although Tywin doesn't trust Cersei to run the nation, he is fully aware that she'd love to kill Tyrion, and having the detested dwarf as Joffrey's Hand was the perfect way to set him up to be murdered by either Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle, or Baelish, and it cost Tywin nothing in terms of personal or professional risk. Lots of people might have done the honors. Do we actually really truly know who sent Mandon Moore, or do we just know who Tyrion thinks did it?

[Avaleigh]

19 hours ago, Oscirus said:

From a personal standpoint, my main objection to A+j= t is the fact that Jon is the main character of the story. So the revelation that he has secret parents should be his and his alone.  Tyrion has his own unique story without the convoluted addition of an unknown parent.

I see Jon, Dany, and Tyrion being the central characters to the story. I think Dany, Jon, and Tyrion are the dragons in the title of the fifth book and that's why ADWD focuses on them so much. 

I honestly can't see why the world book would bother to mention the situation with Aerys and Joanna. The world book was the perfect opportunity to splash cold water on the theory and instead the book only lends more support to the idea that Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen. The other one time popular theory that Jaime and Cersei could be bastard Targs was pretty much shot down by the world book. Even Elio had to admit that the world book gave more support to the theory that Aerys could be Tyrion's biological father and I'm pretty sure that he's not at all fond of the theory.

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

I don't find it at all believable that Tywin knew Tyrion was the product of his beloved wife Joanna's rape by Aerys if indeed he is. There is no way he would continue to raise that child and give him all the benefits of being a true born Lannister if he knew. Even if he didn't want to expose Aerys to protect Joanna's memory or to protect his pride, it would have been so easy for him to arrange an accidental death in the years that Tyrion was a child and most vulnerable. I don't see Tywin having any qualms, for example, about suffocating an infant in his crib. Sometimes babies do stop breathing for no reason so no one would have been the wiser. The only possible reason he didn't was because he believed Tyrion to be his son. So in spite of the fact that he hated him for "killing Joanna" and for being a dwarf, something Tywin saw as reflecting negatively on himself as well as a weakness in his son (and we all know how Tywin feels about weakness), he didn't kill him or have him killed. If it turns out that Tyrion is Aerys' son and Tywin did know then I consider it poor writing on GRRM's part because it would be so out of character for Tywin, who has committed and sanctioned many atrocities in this series.

I don't think it's hard to believe that Tywin would allow Tyrion to live if he harbored suspicions that Tyrion wasn't his biological child. I think Tywin was unsure. I agree too that kinslaying is a line that seems as though even men like Tywin and Roose Bolton aren't willing to cross. I also don't think it's hard to believe that Joanna might have asked him not to since we're told that he would listen to her and seemed to genuinely love her. 

I think Tywin likely went back and forth about the issue from the moment Tyrion was born. On the one hand, he hates the idea of Tyrion being his son but then when he contemplates the alternatives (the love of his life was either raped or unfaithful) he goes back to accepting the idea that Tyrion is his as much as he hates doing it. 

I think with show Tywin explaining that he wanted to kill Tyrion on day one and that it was in his instinct to do so is an indication that Tywin was going against his instinct and felt that his personal feelings and preferences had to come in second. I think that's what he meant when he told Tyrion that he has indeed made a personal sacrifice for the family when Tyrion accuses him of never having to take one for the team. I disagree that it would be poor writing to reveal that Tywin's motives turned out to be more complex than they first appear to be. I also think it's significant that Joanna was a Lannister. Tyrion is related to Tywin either way. According to show Tywin, Tyrion is the "lowest" of the Lannisters but he's still part of their tribe. 

Cersei has a line in the show where she tells Sansa that her father very much believes in the gods 'he just doesn't like them very much'. To me it isn't a stretch that kinslaying wasn't something that he was willing to personally do because he does fear the judgment of the gods on some level. I think he was totally fine with the idea of the gods being the ones to take Tyrion out. I don't think he'd be willing to smother baby Tyrion in his crib because the gods would know what he'd done. It's not that it wouldn't have been easy to kill a baby. It's that he didn't want to be the one who is responsible. I don't think that he sees putting Tyrion in the vanguard as the equivalent of murdering him even if Tyrion happens to see it that way. 

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

 

Tyrion was the interim manager paving the way for the real boss. The more everybody hated him, the more they would LOVE Tywin. Tywin WAS a strategist, yes. And it is a very common strategy to fill an interim position with someone so bad, you can't possibly fail to look great by comparison.

I don't believe Tywin was thinking that far ahead re: planning to take control, himself. Really, I doubt he gave a golden shit what anyone in KL or beyond would think of him as ruler. I see the whole thing fairly straight up: Tywin had some begrudging respect for the Imp and he had to send someone who would a) follow his orders b) keep Cersei & Joffrey in line, at least temporarily.

 

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Although Tywin doesn't trust Cersei to run the nation, he is fully aware that she'd love to kill Tyrion, and having the detested dwarf as Joffrey's Hand was the perfect way to set him up to be murdered by either Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle, or Baelish, and it cost Tywin nothing in terms of personal or professional risk. Lots of people might have done the honors. Do we actually really truly know who sent Mandon Moore, or do we just know who Tyrion thinks did it?

Tywin's pride is the source of so much angst and conflict where Tyrion is concerned. Tyrion represents Tywin's imperfect seed, something too unbelievable to contemplate — and yet, there he is. Of course Tywin doesn't want to believe it's his child, but the other options, again, something he doesn't want to give credence to.

I think Tyrion's failure to impregnate Sansa was what made Tywin finally give up on him. It was the one thing Tywin wanted him to do, for the sake of the family's future, and Tyrion's refusal to man up made him expendable, at last. Likewise, trying to marry Cersei off to Loras ... between Jamie's refusal to leave the KG, Cersei being nuts, and the Imp's independent-mindedness, I think Tywin pretty much gave up on that generation at that point, at was ready to start grooming Tommen.

[glowbug]

If Tyrion weren't Tywin's son he would then be Tywin's first cousin once removed. I know there was discussion on the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread about how close of a relation one has to be in order to be considered a kinslayer because distant blood relations apparently do not apply. Robert was distantly related to Rhaegar and no one calls him a kinslayer. Granted those two were much more distantly related*, but I do wonder how close of a relation one has to be to be considered a kinslayer.

I actually think that if Tywin's motives for hating Tyrion were based on his suspicion that he was Aerys' son and not his own then his motivation would actually be less complex. Hating the product of your wife's rape or extramarital affair is very understandable and straightforward in my opinion. For me the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion is more complex if he is his son or at least if Tywin believes he is. 

*ETA: So it turns out Robert and Rhaegar were much more closely related than I thought. They were second cousins which makes them only slightly less related than first cousins once removed. Aerys II and Robert were first cousins once removed. Since Robert wasn't considered a kinslayer (that we know of) for killing Rhaegar I find it doubtful that Tywin would have been considered a kinslayer for killing Tyrion if he isn't his son. First cousins I could see being closely related enough to be considered off limits but once you get to your cousins' children and so forth it seems like the relation is too distant. Otherwise any high ranking noble who killed another high ranking noble would probably be considered a kinslayer since there was a lot of intermarrying at that social class. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by glowbug

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

 

Tyrion was the interim manager paving the way for the real boss. The more everybody hated him, the more they would LOVE Tywin. Tywin WAS a strategist, yes. And it is a very common strategy to fill an interim position with someone so bad, you can't possibly fail to look great by comparison. Tiberius chose Caligula as his heir, for that very reason--the more afraid they were of Caligula the longer Tiberius assumed he'd live, and the more they'd love him. Great strategy if you don't really care about the nation, which frankly Tywin does not. He cares about his reputation and his family name, and getting more power, and very often the best way to achieve those goals is NOT by doing the best job. That is why Tyrion is in some ways not as smart as other people. He wants to do the right thing, the smartest thing, the most useful thing, while everybody throws rocks and dung and calls him a "demon monkey." Tywin probably started that whole demon monkey thing himself, to make Joffrey look good and to make himself look better when he arrived.

I have a few problems with this:

1. Tywin was already a legendary King's hand from his time with Aerys, he wouldn't need to pull such a trick

2. Tyrion's still a lannister, if he failed, that brought shame to the family name. Which was something that Tywin always tried to avoid.

3. Tywin didn't offer Tyrion the position until after Tyrion proved himself an adept strategist. 

Quote

honestly can't see why the world book would bother to mention the situation with Aerys and Joanna. The world book was the perfect opportunity to splash cold water on the theory and instead the book only lends more support to the idea that Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen. The other one time popular theory that Jaime and Cersei could be bastard Targs was pretty much shot down by the world book. Even Elio had to admit that the world book gave more support to the theory that Aerys could be Tyrion's biological father and I'm pretty sure that he's not at all fond of the theory.

While the book may have evidence, the show doesn't.  All the evidence supporting it on the show is based on hearsay and not historical fact.  It wouldn't take much to slip in Aerys' Joanna obsession, yet the show doesn't do it once. Doesn't even hint at it.

If anything, last week pretty much shut the door on the theory when Tyrion pointed out that anybody who was willing and Dany's friend could talk to the dragons. Hell, even George himself said that the riders didn't have to be targeryans.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Oscirus

[stillshimpy]

It seems like the books might go for the "Tryion: Turns out he too was a Targ.  And you're secret Targary, and you are!  Everyone look under your seats!  You get a dragon and you get dragon and you do too! If he doesn't violently immolate you, you win by the Targaryen Blood Bingo." 

It doesn't seem likely in the show for a variety of reasons.  For one thing, to the TV Audience it would seem a giant retcon, Tywin's dead, no one other than Tywin has ever even hinted that Tyrion could be anyone else's son, but more importantly, in the TV show there's no reason for anyone to believe that only someone with Targaryen blood could ride or control a dragon.   

So maybe it goes something like Dany, because ....blood ties!  Bran....because he can Warg things (with Jon's recent resurrection possibly bringing in "and Bran wasn't the only Stark who could warg creatures....Under Death Duress Jon discovered his inner warg) and....Tyrion ....because...book learning! 

The show doesn't need to go to the Secret Targ well for Dragon riding, taming, affinity because it's never been suggested that only Targs can tame or control dragons.  

[Macbeth]

Quote

Tywin had some begrudging respect for the Imp and he had to send someone who would a) follow his orders b) keep Cersei & Joffrey in line, at least temporarily.

Tywin had respect with Tyrion after the battle, when they were making plans.  But in no way does he think Tyrion is going to control Cersei (he had no clue at this point on how bad Joffrey would prove to be.)  He thinks Tyrion can work with with other members of the small council, and he needs to put him somewhere so he won't get kidnapped again.  The city runs itself.

It didn't matter at that point who was Hand, the major thing that was needed to be  done was to keep Ned alive, and the only person who could have prevented his death would have been Tywin.

To me the Hand is the VP.   If the President, the King, won't listen to you...

Tywin was too arrogant to think Battle of Blackwater was at all plausible.  At this point Tywin think he will put the rebellion down within a couple of weeks.

[Constantinople]

Admittedly it was a short scene, but Lyanna still exhibited the personality of a postage stamp.  But perhaps, like of Helen of Troy, it's one of those expectations that can't be met.

If/when we meet Rhaegar, I hope he's not as equally unremarkable.

[benteen]

6 hours ago, glowbug said:

If Tyrion weren't Tywin's son he would then be Tywin's first cousin once removed. I know there was discussion on the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread about how close of a relation one has to be in order to be considered a kinslayer because distant blood relations apparently do not apply. Robert was distantly related to Rhaegar and no one calls him a kinslayer. Granted those two were much more distantly related, but I do wonder how close of a relation one has to be to be considered a kinslayer.

I actually think that if Tywin's motives for hating Tyrion were based on his suspicion that he was Aerys' son and not his own then his motivation would actually be less complex. Hating the product of your wife's rape or extramarital affair is very understandable and straightforward in my opinion. For me the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion is more complex if he is his son or at least if Tywin believes he is. 

You know, I never thought about that but you're right.  Tyrion and Tywin would still be related no matter what.

[mac123x]

Tyrion was the interim manager paving the way for the real boss. The more everybody hated him, the more they would LOVE Tywin.

Tywin was already a legendary King's hand from his time with Aerys, he wouldn't need to pull such a trick

 

Tywin had a strong reputation with the folks of Kings Landing already, and it was not good.  They still hated him for sacking the city at the end of Robert's Rebellion.  Even before that when he was Aerys's Hand, they didn't love him.  They respected his abilities, but he wasn't popular.  Moreover, he didn't care.

[stillshimpy]

Admittedly it was a short scene, but Lyanna still exhibited the personality of a postage stamp.  But perhaps, like of Helen of Troy, it's one of those expectations that can't be met.

Agreed that she exhibited no real personality, she rode in as a particular type from central casting of fantasy lore:  The plucky young woman who is not a slave to gender roles, despite how her society would try to enforce them, and as such is the Medieval version of the manic-pixie, dream-girl: The tomboyish rule-breaker who is nonetheless gorgeous and all the men of the kingdom go weak at the knees.  

In fairness to the young actor:  good luck!  That's impossible to bring to vivid or individual life in the amount of screen time given to her.  She had a single line and needed to sit a horse while looking like she was naturally good at it.  She got the job done.  

So I agree with you that she had no discernible personality other than a bunch of plucky cliches, but Cate Blanchett, crossed with Meryl Streep and an added dash of Helen Mirren couldn't have pulled off that "Show the folks at home how a Kingdom went to war for you!  While in motion! And not falling off!  And with precisely one line that mainly will exist to Exposition Identity!"  She also didn't walk on water.  I find this equally unsurprising. 

It does look like the show has just decided to ignore the "by the Weirwood" thing and instead it's out of the godswood and proximate to it.  Gives the scenes a decent chance of illustrating things if Bran has more freedom of movement.  

My favorite set dressing extra was back for that scene though:  Guy in charge of bustling by with big sheaf of wheat that amounts to carrying a Pottery Barn staging piece from one side of the set to another.  Like that's a thing.   

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

 

Tyrion was the interim manager paving the way for the real boss. The more everybody hated him, the more they would LOVE Tywin. Tywin WAS a strategist, yes. And it is a very common strategy to fill an interim position with someone so bad, you can't possibly fail to look great by comparison. Tiberius chose Caligula as his heir, for that very reason--the more afraid they were of Caligula the longer Tiberius assumed he'd live, and the more they'd love him. Great strategy if you don't really care about the nation, which frankly Tywin does not. He cares about his reputation and his family name, and getting more power, and very often the best way to achieve those goals is NOT by doing the best job. That is why Tyrion is in some ways not as smart as other people. He wants to do the right thing, the smartest thing, the most useful thing, while everybody throws rocks and dung and calls him a "demon monkey." Tywin probably started that whole demon monkey thing himself, to make Joffrey look good and to make himself look better when he arrived.

Although Tywin doesn't trust Cersei to run the nation, he is fully aware that she'd love to kill Tyrion, and having the detested dwarf as Joffrey's Hand was the perfect way to set him up to be murdered by either Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle, or Baelish, and it cost Tywin nothing in terms of personal or professional risk. Lots of people might have done the honors. Do we actually really truly know who sent Mandon Moore, or do we just know who Tyrion thinks did it?

That's all unsubstantiated.  Tywin sent Tyrion to the capital to root out enemies at court and take charge of the defence of the city.  If the city falls, Tywin's cause is screwed.  It's not all some convoluted ploy to wreck Tyrion and make himself look good.

11 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I honestly can't see why the world book would bother to mention the situation with Aerys and Joanna. The world book was the perfect opportunity to splash cold water on the theory and instead the book only lends more support to the idea that Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen. The other one time popular theory that Jaime and Cersei could be bastard Targs was pretty much shot down by the world book. Even Elio had to admit that the world book gave more support to the theory that Aerys could be Tyrion's biological father and I'm pretty sure that he's not at all fond of the theory.

TWOIAF is clearly playing with the idea.  I don't think anybody denies that.  But I don't think it's actually true.  Among other things, the complete absence of buildup in the books themselves, which is even more pronounced in the show, weighs against such a revelation being the case to me.

[Avaleigh]

11 hours ago, glowbug said:

If Tyrion weren't Tywin's son he would then be Tywin's first cousin once removed. I know there was discussion on the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread about how close of a relation one has to be in order to be considered a kinslayer because distant blood relations apparently do not apply. Robert was distantly related to Rhaegar and no one calls him a kinslayer. Granted those two were much more distantly related, but I do wonder how close of a relation one has to be to be considered a kinslayer.

I've wondered if cousins count too and I don't see why they wouldn't. It always bothered me that the show had Jaime kill his cousin because I disagree that it's something book Jaime would have done. One of the Ds claimed that Jaime is a monster who loves killing and since being a kinslayer is said to be among the most monstrous things a person can do in the eyes of the gods, I'm inclined to think that killing cousins counts. For Tywin, on top of not wanting to be a kinslayer, I think the Joanna factor is likely what kept him from murdering Tyrion outright. 

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Admittedly it was a short scene, but Lyanna still exhibited the personality of a postage stamp.  But perhaps, like of Helen of Troy, it's one of those expectations that can't be met.

If/when we meet Rhaegar, I hope he's not as equally unremarkable.

I didn't have high expectations and I found her to be unmemorable. The actress is pretty but I don't get the impression of her being a 'wild beauty' nor does she remind me at all of Arya. 

Quote

While the book may have evidence, the show doesn't.  All the evidence supporting it on the show is based on hearsay and not historical fact.  It wouldn't take much to slip in Aerys' Joanna obsession, yet the show doesn't do it once. Doesn't even hint at it.

 

Obviously, I disagree that we haven't gotten any evidence on the show. I also think that there's still plenty of time for them to mention Aerys' obsession with Joanna. We didn't find out about that until the fifth book and we're only just now edging past book five territory on the show. 

I feel that the show has done a fair amount of foreshadowing that there's something special about having the 'blood of the dragon'.

There's also no satisfactory explanation for why the dragons would already know that Tyrion is a friend to Dany when they never even saw Dany with Tyrion and have no idea what's happened to her. 

Quote

The show doesn't need to go to the Secret Targ well for Dragon riding, taming, affinity because it's never been suggested that only Targs can tame or control dragons. 

I thought it was stated on the show that the Targaryens were the only family in Westeros to ever have dragons. (I can't recall if the show talks about how the Valyrians were the only ones to ever learn the secret of taming and controlling dragons.) Kind of makes me wonder why if riding a dragon is something that anyone can potentially do. Having a dragon would a pretty useful thing for other families to have but for whatever reason this didn't happen. If a person can learn to ride and tame dragons simply from having read enough books, surely at least one Maester would have been able to accomplish that. 

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

TWOIAF is clearly playing with the idea.  I don't think anybody denies that.  But I don't think it's actually true.  Among other things, the complete absence of buildup in the books themselves, which is even more pronounced in the show, weighs against such a revelation being the case to me.

I think GRRM has been hinting at it in every book. The first book especially, I was struck by how obvious it seemed once I had the theory in my head. Tyrion's description right off the bat is curious and the first book casts doubt on his paternity early on IMO. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by Avaleigh
Spelling.

[GrailKing]

We may have more then 1 actress playing Lyanna, she looked too young to be ~16.

[qtpye]

Quote

Personally I'm hoping the whole "Tyrion is a secret Targ" thing isn't true, because that's one secret child too many imo.

And the next secret Targaryan is...Hot Pie.

That really would be taking it a step too far.

Quote

 

 

Agreed that she exhibited no real personality, she rode in as a particular type from central casting of fantasy lore:  The plucky young woman who is not a slave to gender roles, despite how her society would try to enforce them, and as such is the Medieval version of the manic-pixie, dream-girl: The tomboyish rule-breaker who is nonetheless gorgeous and all the men of the kingdom go weak at the knees.  

In fairness to the young actor:  good luck!  That's impossible to bring to vivid or individual life in the amount of screen time given to her.  She had a single line and needed to sit a horse while looking like she was naturally good at it.  She got the job done.  

So I agree with you that she had no discernible personality other than a bunch of plucky cliches, but Cate Blanchett, crossed with Meryl Streep and an added dash of Helen Mirren couldn't have pulled off that "Show the folks at home how a Kingdom went to war for you!  While in motion! And not falling off!  And with precisely one line that mainly will exist to Exposition Identity!"  She also didn't walk on water.  I find this equally unsurprising. 

It does look like the show has just decided to ignore the "by the Weirwood" thing and instead it's out of the godswood and proximate to it.  Gives the scenes a decent chance of illustrating things if Bran has more freedom of movement.  

My favorite set dressing extra was back for that scene though:  Guy in charge of bustling by with big sheaf of wheat that amounts to carrying a Pottery Barn staging piece from one side of the set to another.  Like that's a thing.   

 

Word to all of this.  I hate it when war or bloodshed is attributed to a woman's "beauty".  It's so shallow and stupid.  I know everyone describes Lyanna as incredibly beautiful, but I would love it if in truth, she was just average looking, but was just a fascinating person.

However, I guess wars are never fought over a woman's "great personality".

[Bookmistress]

Quote

Since the books very heavily hints that Ashara Dayne and Brandon got it on.  The timing of her illegitimate child suggests that Brandon like stopped by on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat :-/  Book Brandon being such a booger came as a complete shock to me, because they series has Littlefinger refer to him square-jawed and honorable.  

I had wondered if it had happened at Harrenhal and Ned accidentally walked in on them, when going to visit his brother's tent for some reason - I could have sworn I remember reading in a Barristan chapter that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. I could have imagined that though, it's been a while since my last reread. I'll have to search my Nook.

After readers learned more about Brandon's nature, that Ashara had had a baby, and that Barristan loved Ashara and still considered Ned honorable, Brandon + Ashara made a whole lot of sense to me; she wouldn't be the first teenage girl to politely dance with the shy, quiet younger brother but decide that she really wanted the one who was brave enough to talk to her. (That would give a new dimension to Ned's "Never mention that name to me again" to Catelyn, when she felt brave enough to ask if Jon was Ashara's. Gosh, poor Ned. No, you can't have the pretty girl you danced with, but your brother can. Also, here, marry this redhead who has no idea your brother probably made the eight during their betrothal.)

[Avaleigh]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Word to all of this.  I hate it when war or bloodshed is attributed to a woman's "beauty".  It's so shallow and stupid.  I know everyone describes Lyanna as incredibly beautiful, but I would love it if in truth, she was just average looking, but was just a fascinating person.

However, I guess wars are never fought over a woman's "great personality".

I think Kevan is a pretty objective character and he gave the impression that he thought Cersei was a lot prettier than Lyanna. I don't think this was Lannister bias either since we know he can't stand Cersei.

I think it was more for Rhaegar than just Lyanna's looks. I think he probably thought that she was strong, brave, passionate, and fascinating. I've never had the impression that he went after her just because of her beauty. She also seemed to be different than Elia in every way. I'm sure that Rhaegar was fond of Elia but I get the impression that for him Elia was basically boring in comparison to Lyanna. 

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

. Having a dragon would a pretty useful thing for other families to have but for whatever reason this didn't happen. If a person can learn to ride and tame dragons simply from having read enough books, surely at least one Maester would have been able to accomplish that. 

I suspect that dragons aren't as common as say, cats or dogs. The Targaryans brought them over from Valeria, why would we assume there were any running about freely for other families to tame?

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

I suspect that dragons aren't as common as say, cats or dogs. The Targaryans brought them over from Valeria, why would we assume there were any running about freely for other families to tame?

Spoiler

The world books says that there were wild dragons. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tag added

[polyhymnia]

On 5/3/2016 at 9:49 PM, AuntieMame said:

First, hey Polyhymnia! Is your screen name after the character from the Madeline L'Engle books? If so way cool. If not, still cool.

 

It is!!

[Chris24601]

57 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I think Kevan is a pretty objective character and he gave the impression that he thought Cersei was a lot prettier than Lyanna. I don't think this was Lannister bias either since we know he can't stand Cersei.

I think it was more for Rhaegar than just Lyanna's looks. I think he probably thought that she was strong, brave, passionate, and fascinating. I've never had the impression that he went after her just because of her beauty. She also seemed to be different than Elia in every way. I'm sure that Rhaegar was fond of Elia but I get the impression that for him Elia was basically boring in comparison to Lyanna. 

My hunch? Stark blood and some unrevealed chunk of prophecy.

We know Rhaegar initially believed he was the Prince That Was Promised ("it seems I must become a warrior.") but later learned some additional detail that led him to believe that it would instead be one of his children, specifically his first son, Aegon (i.e. Dany's vision from the House of the Undying).

Just a guess, but I think that sometime after the birth of Aegon, Rhaeger found out some additional aspect of the prophecy he was trying to fulfill... perhaps something related to the Ice side of the "Song of Ice and Fire" and that this is why he honed in on and fell for Lyanna because, as the only daughter of House Stark, she was the only one who could become the mother of TPTWP (third time's a charm).

Since we're kinda heading into the home stretch of the series, my bet is that whatever this additional element of the prophecy is will be something that Sam uncovers in the Citadel this season... something to set the stage for Jon's role in the final battle.

My completely tinfoil hat theory on that is that what Rhaegar might have uncovered was that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/The Stallion Who Mounts The World (their stories are all pretty similar and all have their origin in Asshai) is actually the VILLAIN of the story (i.e. The Bloodstone Emperor reborn from AWoIaF) and that only a child born of both Ice and Fire could prevent them from ending the world.

Like I said... pretty tinfoil hatty, but half of the fun of the series is trying to puzzle out wild theories from the unfinished narrative.

[Unknown poster]

if in fact Tyrion IS a Targaryian, (which I'm not in favor of) I'm curious to see how spoke think it will be revealed. After all, There isn't anyone living who could have such knowledge, as far as we know. Selma knows about Arey's "busy hands" on her wedding night, but so far that's all he's admitted to, even internally. And if he knows more, and is gong to reveal it, why kill him off on the show? (Personally, I assumed he wasn't long for the book world either, even before last season. Too much of Ned Stark in him.)

[Meredith Quill]

On 3 May 2016 at 4:18 PM, stillshimpy said:

Well, certainly independent of anything Melisandre did.  She gave him a much needed sponge bath and haircut, but it looked to me like whatever she did failed, not that it was some delayed reaction.  

I don't know what brought Jon back.  I don't know if Mel will think "Zounds, look what I did!"  but if anything, it looked more to me like it had something to do with Ghost.  I know in the show there's no proof of Jon being a Warg and there really hasn't been a suggestion of it. 

Melisandre's ablutions seemed more like body preparation than accomplishing anything.  She cleaned up the house, something else moved in the furniture.  That's what it looked like to me.  I could be wrong, but I don't think Melisandre succeeded in anything other than helping everyone protect Jon's body for long enough for whatever else was at work to get the job done. 

I also believe it is too much of a coincidence that it happened minutes after Melisandre's ritual. If Jon had warged into Ghost, why return at that moment and not sooner? I believe it was because he couldn't warg back into a lifeless body? So it could be a combination of the 2 but it definitely couldn't be simply Jon warging back into his own dead body, because the injuries that caused his death were still present.

Therefore, Mel undoubtedly had something to do with his resurrection.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: 

Further speculation on Tyrion's possible Targ blood should be taken to either the Tyrion topic (where book info should be spoiler tagged) or one of the Bookwalker speculation topics in this forum. A certain amount of discussion has been allowed but this topic really needs to get back on track and concentrate on the episode itself now.

Thanks.

[Bill1978]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

I also believe it is too much of a coincidence that it happened minutes after Melisandre's ritual. If Jon had warged into Ghost, why return at that moment and not sooner? I believe it was because he couldn't warg back into a lifeless body? So it could be a combination of the 2 but it definitely couldn't be simply Jon warging back into his own dead body, because the injuries that caused his death were still present.

Therefore, Mel undoubtedly had something to do with his resurrection.

On my commute home from work yesterday, I was thinking that if Jon had warged into Ghost, he was unable to warg back into his body because his physical body was actually too damaged from the knife wounds to be functional. What Melisandre did during her ritual was actually heal Jon's body of the injuries caused by the attack allowing the body to be functional for Jon to warg back in.

[Hecate7]

13 hours ago, qtpye said:

However, I guess wars are never fought over a woman's "great personality".

 

They aren't fought over her beauty, either. They are fought over her property and her lineage, even if her name is Helen of Troy.

[Oscirus]

I see what they tried to do with that Lyanna scene with it paralleling the earlier Arya scene but at this point, that introduction was lacking. With Arya, Brienne, Yara and even Cersei, such women are not a novelty on this show.  If you're going to tell me a woman is one of a kind then you better back it up.
 

Quote

 

I think Kevan is a pretty objective character and he gave the impression that he thought Cersei was a lot prettier than Lyanna. I don't think this was Lannister bias either since we know he can't stand Cersei.

I think it was more for Rhaegar than just Lyanna's looks. I think he probably thought that she was strong, brave, passionate, and fascinating. I've never had the impression that he went after her just because of her beauty.

 

I bet looks played a large part in his pursuit of her. If she looked like Gilly, I'm betting that he wouldn't be interested in her regardless of how strong brave and passionate she was.

That being said, in terms of reasons for the war, I'd say she would be four or five on the list, behind an unchecked crazy assed king, lack of respect for the great houses, and just a nation in general that was already on the verge of a civil war.

[Dev F]

So . . . can we talk about the fact that Harald Karstark's motivations make precisely zero sense? He decides to support the Boltons because Robb Stark cut off his father's head. Fair enough -- your king killed your father, so you support the lord who killed the king. But why on earth would you support the son of that lord in his plan to kill his own father? Isn't being a disloyal little upstart who killed a right and proper lord the one thing that should most disqualify Ramsay in Harald's eyes?

The show tries to explain it by having Harald claim that the North needs "new blood," but that makes even less sense. He can't mean that the North needs an ambitious young ruler, because that's what they had in Robb Stark, and it was a complete disaster for the Karstarks. And he can't mean that the North needs a new house other than the Starks, because then why not just support the rightful Lord Bolton instead of his psycho son?

It's frustrating . . . The show has always had moments like this where the characters' motivations get really dodgy -- the Robb/Talisa relationship, Shae's turn against Sansa in season 4 -- but in the past they've generally been because the writers are trying to join new material and book material together in a way that doesn't quite fit. But more and more, they're just making shit up out of whole cloth and it's a hot pile of nonsense: "My lover was killed and I want revenge, so I'll murder his beloved brother and completely innocent nephew and take over their entire kingdom somehow!"

I've always tried to give the producers the benefit of the doubt, that they were talented writers who were running up against the pressures of adapting a complex series and sometimes not making the best decision in a crunch. But if this soap opera bullshit is what they come up with when they're staring at a blank canvas at the beginning of the season? It doesn't speak highly of their fundamental abilities.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Dev F

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

So . . . can we talk about the fact that Harald Karstark's motivations make precisely zero sense? He decides to support the Boltons because Robb Stark cut off his father's head. Fair enough -- your king killed your father, so you support the lord who killed the king. But why on earth would you support the son of that lord in his plan to kill his own father? Isn't being a disloyal little upstart who killed a right and proper lord that one thing that should most disqualify Ramsay in Harald's eyes?

The show tries to explain it by having Harald claim that the North needs "new blood," but that makes even less sense. He can't mean that the North needs an ambitious young ruler, because that's what they had in Robb Stark, and it was a complete disaster for the Karstarks. And he can't mean that the North needs a new house other than the Starks, because then why not just support the rightful Lord Bolton instead of his psycho son?

The only thing I can think that makes it make any sense is that Karstark wants ALL the remaining Starks wiped out.

Roose wanted to use Sansa to make heirs with Ramsey because that would legitimize the Boltons by making the next generation half-Stark. Roose didn't want to murder the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because it would upset the North and Ned's bastard who took the Black would be no threat to the trueborn children of Ramsey and Sansa (the trueborn heir known to still be alive) in terms of ruling the North.

So if Ramsey pledged to Karstark that he'd eliminate all the remaining Starks (I don't think he'd want Sansa back as anything other than a toy for his amusement because he seems to think he can rule by force and fear rather than by using blood right to provide legitimacy) I could see someone who wanted all the Starks wiped out siding with Ramsey over Roose (who wanted to use the Starks to legitimize his rule).

A more interesting notion with that too is that the Karstarks could see siding with Ramsey as a means of getting him to do their dirty work. After all, King Robert's main claim to legitimacy (other than conquest) was that he had a Targ ancestor back in his family tree (and all the Targs with better claims were killed). The Karstarks are an offshoot of the Starks and so if all the living Starks were killed off by Ramsey, the Karstarks might think they could pull a King Robert and make a claim to Lordship of Winterfell due to have the strongest remaining claim by blood.

[AuntieMame]

On 5/6/2016 at 1:31 PM, polyhymnia said:

It is!!

Ah, another L'Engle fan. So fun!

Now, to all of this talk of Lyanna's beauty and spirit and her and Arya's refusal of feminine roles as chattel by way if being a tom boy. I've always hated the idea that the only way a woman or girl can refuse to be an object or chattel is by being a tomboy.... That the only supposed refusal if these things is by being a male, or loving male things, because of course the only possible refusal of the female arts of design, seamstress and embroideress is by embracing the martial arts and refusing to wear a dress. Really? And I like Arya, but the construction of her character is a complete cliche. BookSansa could end up being the most interesting character with the biggest arc if Martin can manage the writing. Sansa started as an overly romantic young girl who didn't even see the game of thrones being played around her and her unwitting betrayal helped her father's coup attempt fail. She is now an apprentice at Littlefinger's academy of politics and power and Sansa, of all the remaining Stark children could end up knowing the most and holding the most power that she earned herself. I'm talking before Jon Snow gets awarded thrones (possibly) for being a special, prophesied snowflake. Even Jon's election as Lord Commander wouldn't have happened in normal times. Jon still needed experience and seasoning and in the usual way of things would have served another Commander in increasing positions of responsibility. Jon is marked as exceptional and is exceptional but it's been his snowflake status and crisis that have put him ahead rather than earning it over time. 

Sansa on the other hand, is learning and in much more realistic ways. I refer here to BookSansa, as show Sansa has become a bit if a vehicle for rape porn. Sansa, if the rest of her arc is handled right could vend up being a genuinely feminist character and could be holding more earned and understood power in the game than either Jon or Arya. Poor Arya at this point seems to be gearing up to be a plot twist wearing a face not her own. 

I just hate the tomboy, the only way to not be a stupid girlie is by loving all things boy. I'm sorry they did this to Lyanna too. The only woman in history I can think of loved for her personality was Cleopatra. Her legendary beauty was just that. She was known for speaking many languages, being a brilliant conversationalist and knowledgeable about everything from agriculture to war and everything in between. These are the things that bewitched Caesar and Antony. 

And yes, the young actress playing Lyanna had impossible expectations to fill. I just hope they do something more interesting with her than seems likely. I sometimes think that Sansa became such an interesting character in the books almost by accident. Most interesting of all, she is far from safe. She could still be killed or lose everything if Little finger has setbacks. Sansa is doing what women have always had todo, e.g. survive and thrive within the boundaries of patriarchy. The whole tomboy trope used with Arya and now Lyanna accepts the premise that femininity and all things female are bad by definition and defines the characters with that unconscious assumption. 

[mac123x]

And yes, the young actress playing Lyanna had impossible expectations to fill. I just hope they do something more interesting with her than seems likely.

The show skipped the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  I lean towards the theory that it was Lyanna in disguise and that when Aerys ordered everyone to unmask the KotLT, Rhaegar succeeded.  They conversed, and he let her go.  My guess is they made a more meaningful connection then, rather than he just picked her for the Queen of Love and Beauty laurel because she was pretty.  Who knows, Rhaegar was obsessed with the PtwP prophecy, maybe during their conversation he thought she fit an interpretation of that prophecy as the appropriate mother for his 3rd child,

 

It's speculation though, and I doubt we'll see that much detail in the Bran-o-Vision.  It'd have to be a montage almost like the Penseive flashback of Snape falling in love with Lilly in the  last Harry Potter movie.

[AuntieMame]

As for the Karstarks, their support of Ramsey, and the Boltons in general makes zero sense from a political perspective. With no publicly remaining Starks the Karstarks, as a branch of the Stark family could claim the North themselves with the support of noble and commoner alike. This is just a way to keep Ramsey's terrible acts shocking viewers for a while longer. I loved that I was reading and watching a show about realpolitik in a gritty medieval setting, but the show is sacrificing a game that makes sense in service of the gritty. At this point, there is no way to serve justice on Ramsey. He's caused untold suffering and there isn't a way to take it out of his individual hide. His death can't help but be anticlimactic and can't happen soon enough as far as I'm concerned. If the Karstarks were acting with sensible motives, it would have already happened. Plus, the Bolton's were in league with the Lannisters, you know, the king and family that the entire North went to war with? So, let's fall in under their lackey who clearly is only loyal to his own ambition? Not to mention, even though the Karstarks are piqued about Rob, Ned and generations of the Starks are well remembered leaders. Yep, no sense at all. And my interest in watching the show top its own sadism vis a vis Ramsey is beyond on the wane. I had to mute when Fat Walda and her son were fed to the dogs. We get it. Life is brutal in this world and Ramsay is a serial killer. Is there no longer any such thing as restraint and elegance in storytelling? And while I'm glad we're going to get an ending from HBO and realize that the source material suffers from some of these same flaws, I think Martin is a better writer than the guys who will finish the series.

[GrailKing]

Ned's coup was due to fail anyway in my opinion, because 1: Ned confronted Cersei face to face a few days before he planned to have his kids leave, it was on that day he told Van Poole to hunt down a ship and we are in his thoughts where he says he can't hold off any longer because of safety concerns??? what1, really?

2: Not listening to Renly and trusting LF, though LF has been fooling everyone for 15-20 years and because Cat vouched for him Ned was like OK.

3:Sansa knew nothing of it, as far as she knew she was being sent home for safety concerns so said her dad, what triggered her off was Arya could still do her thing and bring her teacher with her but Sansa couldn't say good by to Joffery ( poor naive girl could not see beyond a pretty face )  even when Mordane said she go with her and this was while Ned was talking about the time and ship, which was all Sansa knew.

Now don't get me wrong Sansa was wrong in disobeying her father and it cost Ned the slim chance that he could get them out; but betrayal is too strong of a word to use for her.  In disobeying her dad she got her,Jeyne and almost Arya as political prisoners, but they would not have been in that position if Ned played it differently, I mean really you confront someone who you know has crimes to hide, has spies watching you, and he doesn't think she would have the roads watched or the docks, and how hard is it to get information out of a child, not hard I bet, parents do it every day in life, criminals do it every day in life, safety people can convince children to do things their parents teach them not to do to their shagrin and horror .

Ned knew he was going to get caught, once his kids were safely away and he was willing to die if need be to get the truth out, he had too many people against him who's agendas would have been destroyed if he succeeded.

Ned, Cat and Sansa didn't make smart choices but ultimately Ned screwed up.

Blame is like 98% stupid adults, 2% across others.

Edited May 7, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling

[AuntieMame]

36 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Ned's coup was due to fail anyway in my opinion, because 1: Ned confronted Cersei face to face a few days before he planned to have his kids leave, it was on that day he told Van Poole to hunt down a ship and we are in his thoughts where he says he can't hold off any longer because of safety concerns??? what1, really?

2: Not listening to Renly and trusting LF, though LF has been fooling everyone for 15-20 years and because Cat vouched for him Ned was like OK.

3:Sansa knew nothing of it, as far as she knew she was being sent home for safety concerns so said her dad, what triggered her off was Arya could still do her thing and bring her teacher with her but Sansa couldn't say good by to Joffery ( poor naive girl could not see beyond a pretty face )  even when Mordane said she go with her and this was while Ned was talking about the time and ship, which was all Sansa knew.

Now don't get me wrong Sansa was wrong in disobeying her father and it cost Ned the slim chance that he could get them out; but betrayal is too strong of a word to use for her.  In disobeying her dad she got her,Jeyne and almost Arya as political prisoners, but they would not have been in that position if Ned played it differently, I mean really you confront someone who you know has crimes to hide, has spies watching you, and he doesn't think she would have the roads watched or the docks, and how hard is it to get information out of a child, not hard I bet, parents do it every day in life, criminals do it every day in life, safety people can convince children to do things their parents teach them not to do to their shagrin and horror .

Ned knew he was going to get caught, once his kids were safely away and he was willing to die if need be to get the truth out, he had too many people against him who's agendas would have been destroyed if he succeeded.

Ned, Cat and Sansa didn't make smart choices but ultimately Ned screwed up.

Blame is like 98% stupid adults, 2% across others.

I'm not a Sansa hater, I think at this point, she is one of my book favorites, but her young girl mistakes in King's Landing have always caused fan outrage. Yes, betrayal is too strong a word and Ned was being naive enough on his own that his coup was most likely doomed to failure but Sansa running to Cersei certainly didn't help. Ned could have given the girls information they needed to understand too. And, he could have and should have formed some alliances of expediency. But alas. So, replace betrayal with naïveté and you have it. 

[GrailKing]

30 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I'm not a Sansa hater, I think at this point, she is one of my book favorites, but her young girl mistakes in King's Landing have always caused fan outrage. Yes, betrayal is too strong a word and Ned was being naive enough on his own that his coup was most likely doomed to failure but Sansa running to Cersei certainly didn't help. Ned could have given the girls information they needed to understand too. And, he could have and should have formed some alliances of expediency. But alas. So, replace betrayal with naïveté and you have it. 

Which I agree, the adults were stupid, the kids naive, but from story to real life has anything change :>\