Tyrion Lannister: Impin' Ain't Easy

[Rocket]

 

Remember the Rat Cook? He was forced to live out his days (which may or may not be unending) as a gigantic rat forced to eat only his own young.

 Yep the gods really know how take their revenge. 

 

I already see part of Tyrions drinking as result of the guilt he feels. At the power grab level legal always goes a bit grey. If Danny or Stanis ends up judging the case they either are going to put Tyrion in the rebeling Lanister description and have him executed, (pardoned if they want to use him) and consider the killing of Tywin as infighting in the rebels not worth worrying about. Or Danny or Stanis if they consider Tyrion wronged by his father and only carrying out orders defending Kings Landing they probably will consider him killing Tywin and Shae s targeting legitimate targets. 

 

War is evil and killing people in war except for some political use not a justice system. It is normal and within the laws of war to kill members of the enemy leadership, who are legitimate war targets, with guilt or innocent totally not in the equation. In the laws of war the only question is, is the target a legitimate target or not. In the laws of war how good or bad a person is does not apply. Solders are legitimate targets no guilt of crime is needed even if they are your citizens, the only requirement is that they are members of an organization you are at war with. 

[Constantinople]

He admits he was drunk at most of the Small Council meetings, and he still can't resist the urge to mouth off.

Adviser of the Year material.

[BlackberryJam]

He admits he was drunk at most of the Small Council meetings, and he still can't resist the urge to mouth off.

Adviser of the Year material.

 

Did he have much competition? Pycelle? Mace? Littlefinger? Ned Stark? Maybe Varys, but he had his own agenda. 

[Shanna]

I don't think you can take everything Tyrion says at face value. Some of it is just because he wanted to be irritable. He was not drunk at all the council meetings and was a fairly good hand.

Of course he's pretty drunk lately! I still think he could round out Danys advisors in a beneficial way if he actually makes it there.

[Constantinople]

I don't think you can take everything Tyrion says at face value. Some of it is just because he wanted to be irritable.

This too is a bad quality for someone slated to be a trusted adviser

 

He was not drunk at all the council meetings and was a fairly good hand.

Tyrion referenced council meetings that he attended during which Jorah was mentioned. Those meetings weren't on screen, because, as far as I recall, there were no on screen council meetings attended by Tyrion that mentioned Jorah. The only on screen council meetings that referenced Jorah were in Season 1, before Tyrion was acting Hand and in Season 4, when Tyrion was locked-up.

So if Tyrion is telling the truth about attending council meetings that discussed Jorah, he can be telling the truth about being drunk at most of those meetings.

Also, in Episode 8 of Season 2 -- I remember it because it was the episode before the Battle of Blackwater -- Varys tells Tyrion that Varys has heard from Qarth and that Daenerys "lives". This seems to suggest that they've discussed her before. Then Varys mentions Daenyers has 3 dragons.

 

Of course he's pretty drunk lately! I still think he could round out Danys advisors in a beneficial way if he actually makes it there.

I think so too, but sometimes it seems as if the show is portraying Tyrion as the all wise, all knowing sage who can solve any political problem. (provided it doesn't involve a rigged trial).

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, I don't think Tyrion is played as the wise, all-knowing sage. He's just better at things than the rest of the shitty people trying to rule Westeros. Doesn't make him perfect and I'll take a drunk Tyrion making decisions over a sober Cersei any day.

 

And you can't take anything any of these characters said at face value.  I mean, the wise, kindly High Sparrow is all "I just don't like the taste of wine" yet you arm his underlings and the first thing they are doing is making King's Landing a dry town.

[LuciaMia]

Just curious,  is Peter Dinklage the only American actor in the whole series?

[Constantinople]

Just curious,  is Peter Dinklage the only American actor in the whole series?

 

Khal Drogo (Jason Momoa) is American.

[Hecate7]

I think so too, but sometimes it seems as if the show is portraying Tyrion as the all wise, all knowing sage who can solve any political problem. (provided it doesn't involve a rigged trial).

 

Tyrion is being portrayed as having a chance, at least a chance, of besting the villains. But solving any political problem? If he could do that he wouldn't have ended up marrying Sansa, strangling Shae or shooting Tywin. He would have been able to out-maneuver Tywin and get peace with the Starks. We've seen him outwitted by Littlefinger twice now, and nearly dead because of it.

 

He's managed to get himself out of tight spots before, and he's outwitted a few of the top brains a few times, but it's been firmly established now that he isn't so brilliant that he'll outwit them every single time. And now he's no longer part of a Damon and Pythias team--no more Jaime or Bronn watching his back.

.

[Lady S.]

Disappointed no one's worried about the most suspenseful part of Tyrion's trip with Jorah: will he get his hands on some wine or ale he so desperately needs before developing the DTs? I can't wait to find out!

[Jaded Sapphire]

 

Just curious,  is Peter Dinklage the only American actor in the whole series?

 

Khal Drogo (Jason Momoa) is American.

Peter Dinklage is the only American in the current main cast. Apropos of (almost) nothing, when I checked to see if the kid currently playing Tommen is American (he isn't) I found out he also played Martyn Lannister (one of the boys Karstark killed) back in season 3.

[Spartan Girl]

Gotta hand it to Tyrion for proving once again that size doesn't matter when he kicked his captor's ass despite being chained up.  *applause*

 

SO HAPPY Tyrion met Dany!  I think the fact that murdering Shae has destroyed (at least for now) Tyrion's libido, I think if a platonic relationship with Dany (if, that is, he manages to earn her trust) would help him grow as a character.  I also love his sort-of friendship with Jorah.  It's a pity his days might be numbered due to the Greyscale...

[nksarmi]

I love the way Tyrion talks to Dany, so matter of factly, so honestly, so not full of worship.  She desperately needs someone like Tyrion in her life, in her council.  I believe she actually has half a shot to sit the Iron Throne with him by her side.  Though he did forget Dorne in his little assessment of the realm.  I expect he should remember that even if House Martel is unbowed, unbent, unbroken - they of all the seven kingdoms will be likely to support her the most.

[Oscirus]

You think that the Martells would help the Targeryans who didn't send Elia and her kids to safety so that they could force the Martells to fight for them?

  But yea, Tyrion definitely should've had at least noted their presence in his speech.

Also did the writers forget that Varys bought up defeating Dany and her evil dragons in season 2 to Tyrion without his even asking about her? I'll just hand wave that I reckon.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Oscirus

[Constantinople]

Also did the writers forget that Varys bought up defeating Dany and her evil dragons in season 2 to Tyrion without his even asking about her? I'll just hand wave that I reckon.

I wouldn't necessarily characterize is as advocating her defeat. From The Prince of Winterfell, Season 2, Episode 8:

 

Varys: This morning I heard a song all the way from Qarth beyond the Red Waste. Daenerys Targaryen lives.

Tyrion: A girl at the edge of the world is the least of our problems.

Varys: She has three dragons. But even if what they say is true, it'll be years before they are fully grown. And then there will be nowhere to hide.

Tyrion: One game at a time, my friend.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Constantinople

[Oscirus]

Why else would Varys bring up hiding from her dragons?  He didn't directly say it, but he pretty much implied it.

[Spartan Girl]

Never thought I'd see the day when Khaleesi had a drink with the Imp.

Props to Tryon for getting Dany to spare Jorah. She needs all the help she can get right now. It almost makes me wish they would hook up but like I said before, a platonic relationship would do them good.

Screw GRRM had his slow place. This was so worth the wait on the show.

[nksarmi]

You think that the Martells would help the Targeryans who didn't send Elia and her kids to safety so that they could force the Martells to fight for them?

  But yea, Tyrion definitely should've had at least noted their presence in his speech.

Also did the writers forget that Varys bought up defeating Dany and her evil dragons in season 2 to Tyrion without his even asking about her? I'll just hand wave that I reckon.

Do I think the Martells would fight with the Targeryans against the Baratheons and Lannisters?  Hell yea. 

 

And I think what Tyrion said about Varys is true - if he had wanted Dany dead, she would have died in her crib.  Varys' was a former slave from beyond the narrow sea - if I am not mistaken, he served in her father's court, likely knew her brother, and spent 17 years watching Robert B be every bit as bad of a ruler as any other he had seen.  I can completely believe why he would have wanted to protect Dany to see what type of woman she would become.

[MyrtleGroggins]

Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent, but a question has been bothering me recently.

 

Where are Tyrion Lannister's bastard children?  Why haven't we heard of *any*?

 

The only other (male) characters that seem to have as much sex as Tyrion were Robert Baratheon and Oberyn Martell, and they both have LOADS of random kids running around, some recognized, some not (both in book and show).  I can see a few possibilities as to why we haven't been introduced to Tyrion Jr., but none are wholly satisfactory to me:

 

     1. Because he's a dwarf, and thus hated generally by society (sad, but true in Westeros), anyone who might become accidentally pregnant would be sure to abort the fetus lest it also be a dwarf (which is not at all how genetics works in the real world, of course, but clearly nobody would be expected to know that given the story's setting).

 

     2. At this point, Tyrion has only had sex with prostitutes

(other than Tysha, in the books)

.  (Is this true? I can't remember if any non-brothel-related shenanigans are mentioned...)  If a child had resulted from a liaison with a higher-born woman, perhaps there would be greater impetus to recognize (though probably not legitimize) the child, in part to take advantage of the wealth and opportunities that the Lannisters could theoretically provide.  (Though, by that measure, I would expect at least one or two instances of pregnant prostitutes trying to get some support from the Lannisters, but who knows, maybe that did happen and we just didn't hear about it.)

 

     3. For whatever reason, Tyrion is infertile.  Sort of a boring reason, but heck, could be true.  Granted, one could argue against that given the discussion between Tywin and Tyrion about the latter's ability to provide a new Lannister heir when married to Sansa Stark.

 

     4. Given his low-ranking position in the family, any bastard children wouldn't be recognized unless he becomes the family's sole heir or the head of Casterly Rock, etc.  I'm not sure that this holds water, as characters more removed from the monarchy (such as Roose Bolton/Ramsay Snow,

Littlefinger/Alayne (even though that's not actually their true relationship)

, and various other Flowers, Waters, and such that I can't remember off the top of my head) crop up with moderate frequency.  There are even a couple of Hills (the name for Lannister bastards, IIRC) that show up, so it's not a "Lannisters don't play the bastard game" thing.

 

     5. There is/are bastard child(ren), and they may later come into play in the plot.  Because we clearly need more characters.

 

Anyway, weird musings about the character, but since the topic struck me, it's been bothering me!  I'd love to hear people's theories on the subject!

 

Apologies if this has already been discussed someplace, but I didn't find it in my searches of the boards...

 

P.S. Sorry for the weird spoiler tagging - I tried to tag things that were in the books but differed from the direction of the show.

 

P.P.S. I feel like I've written a really angry post, given the frequency with which I typed "bastard"! :D

[Jaded Sapphire]

My best guess is, since he's only slept with experienced pros, the women he's been with are careful to not get pregnant. It wouldn't be impossible, for one thing they are aware of the unlikelihood of getting pregnant around their cycles (Cercei mentioned as much to Sansa in season 2).

[Oscirus]

Do I think the Martells would fight with the Targeryans against the Baratheons and Lannisters?  Hell yea.

 

You bring up a good point. But still I doubt they'd fight with Dany to legitimatize Dany's hold on the throne when at the moment, they're about to get married to the person who is second in line to the throne.

 

As for Tyrion and his lack of kids, I'd agree with point one.  You have a lot of moon tea drinking prostitutes having sex with Tyrion.

I can't imagine that having a kid with a king or a prince wouldn't seem appealing on the surface.  Tyrion has no such title and he has the dwarf stigma going against him as well.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Oscirus

[Hecate7]

I'm  waiting to find out Tysha had one.

[Holmbo]

My thought on Tyrion's bastards is twofold.

1. As said he seems to only be sleeping with prostitutes who would likely have methods for preventing and aborting pregnancies.

2. There's probably some bastards around but unless they're dwarfs it really would be hard to know for sure.

These are my thoughts based on show information since this is a show thread.

It would be kinda interesting if some Tyrion bastard where to pop up at some point. I don't know any purpose this could serve though.

[FemmyV]

As a general principal, when someone is head of state, is engaged in a conspiracy to have you murdered, yes, you did get to break into their house and kill them instead.

Are we talking poetic justice/morality here? Cause in real world, that argument will not fly unless the incoming head of state is prepared to exonerate, which isn't Tyrion's case. Not yet, anyway. But even if it was a morality issue, Tywin's murder had little to do with political self-defense and everything with Fuck You.

[Spartan Girl]

So Tyrion is on Team Dragon now, ruling Mareen while Jorah and Dario go look for Dany. 

 

I had to laugh at how Tyrion, after listing his skills (or lack thereof) while arguing about why he should go with them, said defensively, "I survived this far!"  Because it's so true.

 

Anyway, I hope they don't drag out Dany with the Dothraki for all of season six because I want more Dany/Tyrion interactions!

[TudorQueen]

The Tyrion/Varys reunion made me so happy! Loved, too, that Missandei pointed out that Tyrion saved her life.

[Constantinople]

I had to laugh at how Tyrion, after listing his skills (or lack thereof) while arguing about why he should go with them, said defensively, "I survived this far!"  Because it's so true.

 

I was amused when with what Tyrion said immediately before that

 

Daario*: So mainly you talk.

Tyrion: And drink (pause) I've survived so far.

 

* I think it was Daario, though it might have been Jorah.

 

Too bad Tyrion forgetto mention he once saw his brother chopping wood with an axe.

[Spartan Girl]

Also had to laugh at Tyrion pointing out to Jorah and Daario that neither one of them had a chance of being Dany's consort.

Although I kind of hope that their relationship stays platonic, I can't help wondering...if Tyrion and Dany are among the survivors at the end of the show, what are the odds that they'll decide to a political marriage? I know most thought and hoped she'll wind up ruling with Jon Snow, but...that might not be happening now.

[thegreathoo]

Tyrion is the Boss!  From slave chains, to being surrounded in the pits by Sons of the Harpy, to ruling Mereen, all in a week, without a drop of blood.  The True King!

[Lady S.]

Quoting myself here, forgive me

Disappointed no one's worried about the most suspenseful part of Tyrion's trip with Jorah: will he get his hands on some wine or ale he so desperately needs before developing the DTs? I can't wait to find out!

Dany helped reunite Tyrion with wine! The most joyful moment of s5, I'm glad at least someone ended on a good note.

[marys1000]

Disappointed no one's worried about the most suspenseful part of Tyrion's trip with Jorah: will he get his hands on some wine or ale he so desperately needs before developing the DTs? I can't wait to find out!

 

Funny but I think the most suspensful part is Jorah getting grayscale.  And if he got it, how can Tyrion not? 

[Hecate7]

Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent, but a question has been bothering me recently.

 

Where are Tyrion Lannister's bastard children?  Why haven't we heard of *any*?

 

The only other (male) characters that seem to have as much sex as Tyrion were Robert Baratheon and Oberyn Martell, and they both have LOADS of random kids running around, some recognized, some not (both in book and show).  I can see a few possibilities as to why we haven't been introduced to Tyrion Jr., but none are wholly satisfactory to me:

 

     1. Because he's a dwarf, and thus hated generally by society (sad, but true in Westeros), anyone who might become accidentally pregnant would be sure to abort the fetus lest it also be a dwarf (which is not at all how genetics works in the real world, of course, but clearly nobody would be expected to know that given the story's setting).

 

     2. At this point, Tyrion has only had sex with prostitutes

(other than Tysha, in the books)

.  (Is this true? I can't remember if any non-brothel-related shenanigans are mentioned...)  If a child had resulted from a liaison with a higher-born woman, perhaps there would be greater impetus to recognize (though probably not legitimize) the child, in part to take advantage of the wealth and opportunities that the Lannisters could theoretically provide.  (Though, by that measure, I would expect at least one or two instances of pregnant prostitutes trying to get some support from the Lannisters, but who knows, maybe that did happen and we just didn't hear about it.)

 

     3. For whatever reason, Tyrion is infertile.  Sort of a boring reason, but heck, could be true.  Granted, one could argue against that given the discussion between Tywin and Tyrion about the latter's ability to provide a new Lannister heir when married to Sansa Stark.

 

     4. Given his low-ranking position in the family, any bastard children wouldn't be recognized unless he becomes the family's sole heir or the head of Casterly Rock, etc.  I'm not sure that this holds water, as characters more removed from the monarchy (such as Roose Bolton/Ramsay Snow,

Littlefinger/Alayne (even though that's not actually their true relationship)

, and various other Flowers, Waters, and such that I can't remember off the top of my head) crop up with moderate frequency.  There are even a couple of Hills (the name for Lannister bastards, IIRC) that show up, so it's not a "Lannisters don't play the bastard game" thing.

 

     5. There is/are bastard child(ren), and they may later come into play in the plot.  Because we clearly need more characters.

 

Anyway, weird musings about the character, but since the topic struck me, it's been bothering me!  I'd love to hear people's theories on the subject!

 

Apologies if this has already been discussed someplace, but I didn't find it in my searches of the boards...

 

P.S. Sorry for the weird spoiler tagging - I tried to tag things that were in the books but differed from the direction of the show.

 

P.P.S. I feel like I've written a really angry post, given the frequency with which I typed "bastard"! :D

 

In Episode 8, "Baelor," Tyrion talked about his first wife, Tysha. It is quite likely, though, that the pressure on Tyrion to impregnate Sansa might actually have been a preliminary to some other Lannister doing so.

[Lady S.]

Yes, Tyrion has only ever had sex with prostitutes, and I don't find it at all weird that they weren't any pregnant whores trying to claim gold from Casterly Rock. Not if they were at all aware of Tywin's feelings about Tyrion's sex life. Either Tywin doesn't believe the child is Tyrion's and has mother and baby both disposed of, or he takes the Lannister bastard from the mother and has only her killed. I can't imagine a scenario where he just pays out some child support/hush money and lets the woman and child live in peace. I think a whore daring to claim she is mother to his grandchild would be just as bad for him as an undesirable trying to be his daughter-in-law. The woman would have to be punished for her insolence somehow like Tysha was. Even tv Shae didn't want to have Tyrion's children and Shae proved to be a first class idiot when it came to danger. I also don't think any working woman would risk birthing a dwarf for the chance at such an uncertain payday. Shae was the first one to have anything resembling a steady relationship with Tyrion, for the others he would have been one john among many, but one with a condition perceived as grotesque whose money and power came from a terrifying father known for his willingness to murder women and children.

 

In addition, I just generally assume that most of the whores on this show try to avoid having babies because it's not like their work offers maternity leave or free childcare. Littlefinger's brothel probably sees use of poisonous herbs to cause miscarriages while whores without access to even that might resort to infanticide. The only one we've seen with a baby was the mother of Barra, Robert's infant daughter, and a king's baby is a different matter than risking pregnancy by each and every john. I think it was also mentioned that there were other babies besides Gilly's at the Mole's Town brothel but I think that was just another element of how grim and bleak that establishment was, that the NW brothers didn't even care about fathering bastards or mind fucking with the cries of children as mood music while those women were desperate enough to work through pregnancy and early childcare for the sake of the few coins those men had or whatever the fuck their barter system was up there.

[Hecate7]

My best guess is, since he's only slept with experienced pros, the women he's been with are careful to not get pregnant. It wouldn't be impossible, for one thing they are aware of the unlikelihood of getting pregnant around their cycles (Cercei mentioned as much to Sansa in season 2).

 

I suspect there are plenty of Tyrion's bastards running around, and either the world is filled with beautiful gold-haired, green-eyed creatures under 25 who look more like Jaime than Tyrion, but are Tyrion's, OR, Tyrion is a chimera, and the bit in his pants isn't Lannister at all, but Targaryen. (Tyrion could be a Targaryen chimera with Lannister gonads, in which case his bastards are gonna look like Lannisters, but I digress).

 

But IF he's got Targaryen DNA in there too, and the reproductive bits are Targaryen, then Tyrion's bastards look like their mothers, for the most part, with the occasional purple eye or shock of white hair intruding into the mix when the mother, too, has a bit of Targ in her. Elia's children, Rhaenys and Aegon, apparently looked Dornish. Jon Snow looks like Lyanna Stark. The Baratheon boys, despite their Targ granny, were black of hair. I suspect that Targaryens tend to favor their mothers, just as Baratheons favor their fathers, and only display Targ traits if their mothers also had some. If I'm right, Tyrion could have invisibly sired armies of bastards who do not resemble him in the slightest, and certainly not enough to make their mothers single him out as the father. There could be some dark-eyed, dark-haired Implets out there.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

From the episode thread:

 

Quote

If Tyrion weren't Tywin's son he would then be Tywin's first cousin once removed. I know there was discussion on the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread about how close of a relation one has to be in order to be considered a kinslayer because distant blood relations apparently do not apply. Robert was distantly related to Rhaegar and no one calls him a kinslayer. Granted those two were much more distantly related*, but I do wonder how close of a relation one has to be to be considered a kinslayer.

Given that Jaime pointed out to the High Sparrow that he had killed his own cousin, I think first cousins definitely count. I'm not so sure about first cousins once removed, though. Speaking of Jaime, I wonder if he also objected to Tywin's drowning of Tyrion. As much as he hated Tyrion, he loved Jaime and would not want Jaime to have to have a kinslayer for a father.

[Oscirus]

Quote

Yes, he did. He continued to have sex with Shay on the show also. She came to the Office of the hand, he scolded her for it... Because it wasn't safe because of his father... And then they had sex.

I think you're referring to this scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsKJanYHmqY

Which as you can see is before Tyrion was even engaged to Sansa which was the last time they had sex.

While Sansa's circumstances were fucked up, let's not forget what led to that in the first place. Mainly Cat and her sister kidnapping, and trying to legally force (torture) a confession out of Tyrion for something he had no part in so that they could kill him.

That being said, ignoring the no sex thing, they had a fairly functional marriage, Sansa was fairly open around Tyrion not even bothering to try and put up shields around him, and Tyrion was fiercely protective of her often to the detriment of himself ( the court case pretty much consisted of things he was saying/ doing to protect her). I'm failing to see the problem with their relationship or even how one person acted negatively towards the other.

[Gertrude]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

While Sansa's circumstances were fucked up, let's not forget what led to that in the first place. Mainly Cat and her sister kidnapping, and trying to legally force (torture) a confession out of Tyrion for something he had no part in so that they could kill him.

Or maybe it was Ned confronting Cersei that was more directly responsible. Or hey - this is crazy - Cersei and Jaime for committing treason repeatedly which eventually led to pushing a kid out of a window? But nah, let's lay all the blame at Cat's feet because she's a bitch, you know.

[Oscirus]

48 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Or maybe it was Ned confronting Cersei that was more directly responsible. Or hey - this is crazy - Cersei and Jaime for committing treason repeatedly which eventually led to pushing a kid out of a window? But nah, let's lay all the blame at Cat's feet because she's a bitch, you know.

Note that you called her a bitch not me.  Please, explain to me how Cersei and Jaime's actions justify murdering Tyrion? What did Cat think was going to happen when she kidnapped and killed ( as she wanted to do) the queen's brother while her daughters were in King's landing?

[Hecate7]

From the Tyrion/Sansa debate on the episode thread:

Quote

To be fair, Tyrion didn't have our book knowledge about the Red Wedding or that Lysa was so unstable that she would attempt to murder her own niece. Either place would have been with family and would seem safer for Sansa than King's Landing where she was surrounded by enemies. I'm not trying to argue the point of whether Tyrion should have let her go or not, but if others do, we should at least use character knowledge rather than book knowledge.

Actually, Tyrion knew more about Lyssa than Cat or Sansa. He DID know that Lyssa was unstable, having observed her in King's Landing, and having been her prisoner. There was nothing safe about sending Sansa to live with an aunt who breastfed her 10 year old son and eagerly attempted to execute a man she KNEW to be innocent, and I think Tyrion knew that. He, more than anyone else besides Littlefinger, knew Lyssa was extremely dangerous.

Now, the Red Wedding is a fair cop. He knew nothing about that. But he did know that the lands between King's Landing and Winterfell, and the entire Riverlands, were filled with armies, and that the likeliest outcome of sending Sansa North would be that some Lannister captain or soldier would kidnap her, and either hold her for ransom, or simply rape her to death and leave her in a ditch somewhere, earning an "attaboy" from Joffrey. Jaime Lannister, the kingdom's top swordsman, Brienne of Tarth, superior even to Jaime, and Tyrion Lannister, were all taken prisoner basically for walking around out there. There's no reason at all for Tyrion to think that Sansa would fare better out there. Tyrion also, more than most, knows that "family" isn't a magical little utopia where you're safe. You can be murdered in your bed by a family member, and both Tyrion and Sansa nearly were. So was the Hound. Just because a group of people is "family" to you, doesn't mean you're safer with them than with your "enemies.

Tyrion's intent was to do right by Sansa, and he did end up doing what was best for her under the circumstances

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Note that you called her a bitch not me.  Please, explain to me how Cersei and Jaime's actions justify murdering Tyrion? What did Cat think was going to happen when she kidnapped and killed ( as she wanted to do) the queen's brother while her daughters were in King's landing?

yeah, it's not so much that she's a "b" as it is that she kidnapped Tyrion and tried to have him killed. Karma.

[Gertrude]

13 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Note that you called her a bitch not me.  Please, explain to me how Cersei and Jaime's actions justify murdering Tyrion? What did Cat think was going to happen when she kidnapped and killed ( as she wanted to do) the queen's brother while her daughters were in King's landing?

Yeah, I did call her a bitch because usually the same people that argue that Cat started the war or set things in motions are the same ones who don't see any nuance in Cat and think she's the ultimate bitch because she was mean to Jon. If you're not one of those, I apologize. But then again you're saying that Cat wanted to murder Tyrion when that isn't the case. Cat knocked down a set of dominoes that were set up for her by J and C all those years ago when the they decided to commit treason. All Cat wanted to do at that moment was get home undetected. When that wasn't happening, she wanted to bring Tyrion to trial. At that time, she thought he tried to kill Bran. Imperfect infomation, you know? Even if Tyrion was killed as a result of a trial, it wouldn't be murder. So you're using loaded language that makes me think you're not one to see nuance in Cat at all.

Did Cat makes good decisions? That's something I will debate and concede on many occasions, but to say she wanted Tyrion murdered? Flat out wrong. And Cat was completely appalled at what Lysa put in motion - it wasn't her intent at all.

And Hecate - yes, Tyrion knew Lysa was unstable - but more unstable than Joffrey who was having Sansa tortured and beaten on the reg? Probably not.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Gertrude

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Now, the Red Wedding is a fair cop. He knew nothing about that. But he did know that the lands between King's Landing and Winterfell, and the entire Riverlands, were filled with armies, and that the likeliest outcome of sending Sansa North would be that some Lannister captain or soldier would kidnap her, and either hold her for ransom, or simply rape her to death and leave her in a ditch somewhere, earning an "attaboy" from Joffrey.

Tyrion at no point indicates a desire to send Sansa home.  If we're going purely by the show, he outright states in 206 that they need her as a hostage; in the books we see his thoughts, and the idea that it would be dangerous to send Sansa away is never once present.  Her safety had nothing to do with it (and in any event, send her by boat, if that's your concern).

Edited May 19, 2016 by SeanC

[Oscirus]

Quote

At that time, she thought he tried to kill Bran. Imperfect infomation, you know? Even if Tyrion was killed as a result of a trial, it wouldn't be murder.

She was taking him to the Vale to set him up for a trial where he was definitely going to be found guilty and thrown out the moon door. If that's not murder, I don't know what is.

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

She was taking him to the Vale to set him up for a trial where he was definitely going to be found guilty and thrown out the moon door. If that's not murder, I don't know what is.

Catelyn said in the book and the show of Tyrion when Lysa wanted to execute him straight off the bat, "This man is my prisoner, I will not have him harmed." The problem is that she lost control of the situation the minute she set foot in the Vale; Lysa was running the show and was determined to make sure Tyrion went out the Moon Door. Catelyn I think was taken off guard by the changes in her sister and by the time she realized her mistake, it was too late. Tyrion then forced the issue by demanding a trial by combat, hoping he could stall for time by getting Jaime to come to the Vale to be his champion, which again took control out of Catelyn's hands. I think we can acquit Catelyn of plotting to put Tyrion under the care of a madwoman who would stop at nothing to see him killed, since her POVs indicate that she had no idea that Lysa would be acting the way she was. 

[Gertrude]

She was taking him to the Vale because she thought she had the best chance of getting there unmolested (mountain clans or not) and gaining an ally and witness in her sister. She meant to put him up on on a fair trial. Cat absolutely did not count on her crazy pants sister taking over and causing a shit show.

(Eyes High posted as I was writing this and agreed on all counts)

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

She was taking him to the Vale to set him up for a trial where he was definitely going to be found guilty and thrown out the moon door. If that's not murder, I don't know what is.

It wouldn't strictly be murder if he had been found guilty in a fair trial.  But anyway, Catelyn didn't intend to put him on trial, as others have said, she wanted to use him as a bargaining chip in the presumed coming struggle with the Lannisters.  Which would have been the rational thing to do, but for Lysa actually being the villain of the piece, which she obviously didn't know about.

[Hecate7]

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Spoiler

And Hecate - yes, Tyrion knew Lysa was unstable - but more unstable than Joffrey who was having Sansa tortured and beaten on the reg? Probably not.

 

He had seen her breastfeeding her far-too-mature son. He had seen her behavior when people suggested that he be fostered like a normal kid from court. He had been her prisoner and knew that she was murderously unstable and probably responsible for her husband's death. Just as he knew about his siblings' incest, he probably knew Lyssa was dangerous. The last thing he heard Lyssa do was offer to throw Cat out the moon door if she ever attracted attention to Lyssa's family again. So yes, more unstable than Joffrey, and Tyrion was in a position to know it. That's what Tyrion does--he drinks, and he knows things.

Even before Tyrion stood trail at Lyssa's house, he said to Catelyn, "She's changed," in a voice of absolute authority, in a tone that implied that Catelyn might as well just kill him where he stood, as put him at the mercy of her lunatic sister. In fact, when he learned he was going to Lyssa, didn't he say, "you might as well just kill me right here?" Cat was offended because she had no idea how crazy Lyssa was, but everyone else actually did know. The reason it never occurred to him to send Sansa to Lyssa, was that even before his trial he thought that was just like sending someone to be killed. Some people believe in family as a safe place, but Tyrion isn't one of those people--never has been. Because family wasn't a safe place for him, and he had seen too many murders, rapes, and betrayals of one family member by another, even before he grew to manhood, to ever think, "well, the safest place for this girl is with her insane aunt who tried to murder me."

Edited May 19, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

. I think we can acquit Catelyn of plotting to put Tyrion under the care of a madwoman who would stop at nothing to see him killed, since her POVs indicate that she had no idea that Lysa would be acting the way she was. 

Agreed. It's just frustrating because Tyrion DID know and tried to tell her. And just as in the case of the dagger, Catelyn ignored Tyrion's knowledge and warnings and rolled right over him. It's understandable that she didn't listen to him, but it's still frustrating as hell to watch.

[SeanC]

32 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

He had been her prisoner and knew that she was murderously unstable and probably responsible for her husband's death.

Tyrion had no inkling she was responsible for Jon Arryn's death.

Quote

The reason it never occurred to him to send Sansa to Lyssa, was that even before his trial he thought that was just like sending someone to be killed.

The reason it never occurred to him to send Sansa to Lysa was that he had no interest in sending Sansa anywhere, because she was a valuable hostage, and he knew that.  If he had wanted to send Sansa away, he could have had Varys put her on a boat for White Harbor at any point.  Indeed, he invested a lot of him in a dishonest attempt to spring Jaime from Tully captivity, which would have made Sansa's position in court much, much worse than it already was (as subsequently happened with Catelyn let him go on her own).

Edited May 19, 2016 by SeanC

[FemmyV]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion at no point indicates a desire to send Sansa home.  If we're going purely by the show, he outright states in 206 that they need her as a hostage; in the books we see his thoughts, and the idea that it would be dangerous to send Sansa away is never once present.  Her safety had nothing to do with it (and in any event, send her by boat, if that's your concern).

And he did attempt to negotiate her release. It just happened that Tywin and Littlefinger betrayed his plan and killed Rob et al after Cat accepted and released Jamie.

Edited May 20, 2016 by FemmyV
Spellin

[Oscirus]

Quote

It wouldn't strictly be murder if he had been found guilty in a fair trial.

How would that have even remotely been a fair trial? Tyrion had no way of disproving the charges against him. Cat might've wanted to have a trial to ease her conscience  and she might not have even expected her sister to be so crazy, but the intended consequence was definitely for Tyrion to pay.

As for why didn't Tyrion set Sansa free, just like people say that Sansa owes Tyrion nothing ( a fact I agree with) the same goes for Tyrion. And he definitely shouldn't have turned his back on his family for someone he barely knew.