Tyrion Lannister: Impin' Ain't Easy

[Rhondinella]

Hell, I say let him have the iron throne.  He's smarter than pretty much anyone else fighting for it.

[Wilowy]

Agreed. Him or Dany. Tyrion was my favorite character in the books, no question, but on the show I find myself charmed by a number of them, especially Arya, she really captures the spirit of the character well.

[Constantinople]

Ultimately, he's done nothing but prop-up the Lannister regime, which is to say Joffrey.

Dude needs to die pronto.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I think Tyrion is hot.

There, I said it.

[Wilowy]

I do too.

There's something about a man who knows who he is and owns it, but tries to change the lesser of himself... sometimes in spite of himself. He's hilarious, well-read, and a survivor. 

I always was thrilled when I got to one of his POV chapters in the books. He's been my favorite character for a long time, but I didn't consider him 'hot' until I saw Dinklage play him. The man just transcends everything life has thrown at him.

[CletusMusashi]

I want to be him when I grow up. Or down. Whatever.

[Joystickenvy]

His character loses some luster in book 5 for me, but on the show and the early books he's a definite highlight.

Love his sense of humor.

Edited April 30, 2014 by SilverStormm
Book Talk spoiler tagged.

[DrSpaceman]

I love him, he is my favorite character. If there was an iron Throne election and we could vote for the rules, he'd get mine.

Haven't read the books, so no idea what happens to him later, hut he is certainly not just the smartest of them all but seems to possess the most political savvy of them.

[Wilowy]

Of course I blame 30Rock, but whenever I see the WORD "spaceman" anywhere? It's Spa-CHE-man. 

Poor astronauts have lost their cool word.

[jeansheridan]

It's a role of a lifetime for Peter Dinklage.  I love the idea for the character--how does a "weakling" survive in a world of sword-fighting and brute strength?  Money certainly helps and his brains serve him well.  But I also like that he makes serious mistakes too.  And he and Bronn make the best oddball couple on television.  

I am excited to see him chat with Jaime again now that all the Lannisters are back in King's Landing.  I assume there will be a reunion.  They haven't had a scene together since episode two, season one!  And Jaime pretty much started a war to get his little brother back.  

[Lady S.]

Ultimately, he's done nothing but prop-up the Lannister regime, which is to say Joffrey.

 

IA, I think it's a bit much when he's made out to be more of a Stark sympathizer than a Lannister loyalist. Tyrion clearly still craves his abusive father's acceptance/approval, even wants some gratitude from Cersei, and has shown sympathy for her. What's more, he enjoys playing the game, he's not just staying for the money. But there are his family, he does love his family, some of them anyway. I don't agree that he deserves to die for it,  and doing so now wouldn't help anyone. Tywin's the one who needs to pay pronto.

[Wilowy]

Saw this and had to put it here.

Peter and Lena went hula-hooping at a gay bar. Great pics! :D

[Constantinople]

So Cersei wants your head on a spike?

Big Deal. Get in line.

What a whiner.

He's not shackled. His room has plenty of light, thanks, in part, to the window. He's permitted all manner of visitors, and only a minimal effort is made to stop them from smuggling food to him. Apparently he has a change of clothes too.

Talk about Club Fed.

[Wilowy]

Ha! Well considering what he came from, shitting in a bucket isn't the most sanitary of designs... ;)

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Reminder: Please remember to spoiler tag any Book Talk in this thread. Thank you.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Hell, I say let him have the iron throne.  He's smarter than pretty much anyone else fighting for it.

 

He reminds me a bit of Captain America what with the whole "a weak man knows the value of strength" and whatnot. I think Tyrion would be the best leader of Westeros. He's smart, compassionate, and decent.

 

I really think he and Sansa could have made a good marriage but I guess that's off the table now. :(

 

I adore his relationship with Jaime. They seem to share a morbidly humorous sense of "this is a helluva family we're in, eh?"

[Wilowy]

I know! And their casual talk about Cersei wanting his head! Yeah, real healthy there, Lannisters. :D

[TooMuchCoffee]

So Cersei wants your head on a spike?

Big Deal. Get in line.

What a whiner.

He's not shackled. His room has plenty of light, thanks, in part, to the window. He's permitted all manner of visitors, and only a minimal effort is made to stop them from smuggling food to him. Apparently he has a change of clothes too.

Talk about Club Fed.

 

And he can't roll off the edge in his sleep... but he probably can't bribe the jailer either. 

[Lady S.]

I liked (what I took as) the confirmation that Tyrion knew Joffrey's parentage the whole time. There's signs in the early eps when Tyrion tells Jaime their sister has strange inclinations or whatever in his intro scene, and then noticing the sketchy look the twins share when he tells them Bran might live. Now he calls Joffrey Jaime's son and Jaime doesn't want to claim that abomination but he doesn't deny it, or act surprised that Tyrion would say that. And Tyrion half expects Jaime to choose Cersei over him because he knows how crazy for her Jaime is/was. It's not that I think the incest was already an open family secret before Stannis's letters, trying to imitate the Targaryens in that way was only cool to Jaime and Cersei, but I think Cersei was the one who actually cared about keeping their "love" a secret and Jaime only did so for her sake. But he's close enough to Tyrion to either not try to hide it with him or not care when he figured it out on his own. (Because c'mon Tyrion grew up with these weirdos, I doubt he needed help from the great detective work of Jon Arryn and Ned Stark to notice what was up.)

[NoWillToResist]

 

I think Cersei was the one who actually cared about keeping their "love" a secret and Jaime only did so for her sake. But he's close enough to Tyrion to either not try to hide it with him or not care when he figured it out on his own.

 

Well, I think the secrecy was probably born out of practicality. Women were probably supposed to be virgins on their wedding night, so Cersei being matched up with the king with a busted cherry - by her twin brother no less! - might have squashed Tywin's plans for his girl.

 

And then she's married to the king, so they can't really be open about her cheating on him and having illegitimate kids. Double standard? Sure! But typical.

 

I think the Lannister adults knew but as long as no one else did, they looked the other way.

[Constantinople]

And he can't roll off the edge in his sleep... but he probably can't bribe the jailer either.

Exactly

 

Four Walls!

But all we get is

Bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch.

Bitch, bitch, bitch.

 

He reminds me a bit of Captain America what with the whole "a weak man knows the value of strength" and whatnot. I think Tyrion would be the best leader of Westeros. He's smart, compassionate, and decent.

 

He's not that smart.

After the re-enactment of the War of the Five Kings at Joffrey's wedding feast, Joffrey said the winner (dwarf Joffrey) couldn't be the true champion unless he defeated all comers, asked if anyone still challenged his reign and then nominated Tyrion.

Tyrion had a perfect out. He could have just said that he would never dream of challenging the king's right to rule and that all of his work has been in service, all while bending one knee.

Instead, Tyrion let Joffrey get the better of him and started to mouth off.

 

Worse, Tyrion alluded to the truth in no uncertain terms.

They say pride goeth before a fall.

And if Tyrion really cared about the realm, he would have arranged for Joffrey's "accidental" death and Cersei's imprisonment while acting Hand.

 

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, I don't think anyone, aside from Varys, gives a flying fuck about the realm.  Everyone wants to solidify their own power.

 

Tyrion would be a good leader because he recognizes what is going on.  He had a good plan at the Blackwater.  He knows the realm needs to stop spending money on stupid crap.  Tyrion could keep the water flowing and the debts paid.  Was he totally brill?  No.  He would have gotten the people fed so they'd stop trying to kill all the Lannisters though.

 

But really, nothing would have satisfied Joffrey.  No amount of humiliation for Tyrion would have been enough.  Tyrion could have sucked his royal dick there at the wedding feast and Joffrey would have demanded more.  Impaling himself on Widow's Wail wouldn't have been enough.   Joffrey was, undoubtedly, a horrific king.  Tyrion would have been amazing in comparison. 

 

Tyrion is by far my not favorite character.  He's not even my favorite Lannister (Love you, Tywin, KISSES!), but he wouldn't totally suck as king.

Edited May 1, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[NoWillToResist]

 

Tyrion would be a good leader because he recognizes what is going on.

 

I feel he'd be the best leader because I don't think he really wants it, which means that he won't have his own selfish agenda.

 

All the other ones who want the throne feel that it's their right, rather than something they've earned (which is of course the big flaw in a hereditary monarchy).

 

There are no elections, no promises of what they'll do for the people of Westeros...just "I want the throne because it's my due". In his small capacity at KL, Tyrion has shown more interest in and care for its citizens than any of the kings. Crazy dude wanted everyone dead, Robert spent everything and let the city go belly up and Joffrey was a sadistic fuckhat.

 

Tommen might do alright with Margaery, but only if he's removed from Tywin's 'Lannisters above all' influence, IMO.

[Constantinople]

Oh, I don't think anyone, aside from Varys, gives a flying fuck about the realm.

 

Flying fucks are hard to come by in a land without dragons.

 

I feel he'd be the best leader because I don't think he really wants it, which means that he won't have his own selfish agenda.

I think Tyrion loves playing the game. He said as much to both Shae and Varys.

[BlackberryJam]

I think Tyrion would be as happier as Kingmaker than as King.  If Tyrion could have Casterly Rock, whores and wine, and no responsibility, he'd be happy as well.  Tywin will never let him have the Rock.  For Tyrion, someone has got to rule and better it be a Lannister or someone pro-Lannister than someone else.  Oh and not those dour, boring Starks.  A Stark King would suck all the fun out of Westeros.

 

I'm sure Tywin would have liked to put Jaime on the throne, but Jaime has no ambition.  Letting Tyrion rule through Tommen until Tommen is of age wouldn't be the worst idea.  Of course, with Cersei screaming for Tyrion's head, that's not going to happen.

 

Tyrion does like the game though.  He's better at it than Jaime, who doesn't give a doggy style fuck about it, and better than Cersei who is an idiot.

 

 

[Constantinople]

Yelling at everyone in the court room that you want them dead is no way to win the crowd over.

Win the crowd Maximus, and you'll win your freedom.

Too late for that: An Imp who became a Hand, a Hand who became a Night's Watchman, a Night's Watchman who defied an Emperor...or something.

[Independent George]

As much as the court might be stacked against him you have to admit: Tyrion looks guilty as hell. Take away Shae's perjury, and you're still left with:

1. Tyrion's threatened Joffrey numerous times

2. He did in fact have access to Pycelle's poisons during his incarceration.

3. He poured Joffrey's wine just before he died of poisoning.

4. His wife disappeared from the capital immediately afterwards.

If the clues all fit, you must convict.

[Lady S.]

I'm disappointed no one brought up his threat to cut off Joffrey's cock.

 

Yelling at everyone in the court room that you want them dead is no way to win the crowd over.

And after Jaime swore to Cersei that she was wrong about him wanting to kill them all. Whatever happens, Tyrion's future with Tywin is shot to hell. It may be okay for Tywin to badmouth Joffrey's corpse and say Jaime needs to father children named Lannister in private, but I have a feeling calling Joff a vicious bastard (implying Ned and Stannis had the truth about his paternity) and saying his death brought more relief than 1,000 whores in front of the court would be a big no-no.

 

Y'know, if it weren't for the killer jail cells, I'd say Tyrion got a fairer deall in the Eyrie. Lysa didn't have any lying witnesses on hand and only Ser Vardis to serve to her champion.

[Wilowy]

But would Tyrion EVER be so obvious? That's the thing! He's the cleverest of men, so why would he have poured Joffrey's wine in full view of everyone if he was plotting to murder him? Everyone just wants an easy scapegoat and not to piss off Cersei. Ugh.

[Lady S.]

The "evil demon monkey"'s cleverness has never been appreciated by the public.

[dr pepper]

Oh, I don't think anyone, aside from Varys, gives a flying fuck

 

Varys looks at you. "Perhaps not the best choice of words".

[Constantinople]

But would Tyrion EVER be so obvious? That's the thing! He's the cleverest of men, so why would he have poured Joffrey's wine in full view of everyone if he was plotting to murder him?.

 

Because that evil demon monkey thought he could use the old reverse psychology to kill Joffrey and then say he's too smart for something like that.  Fortunately, Cersei knows what a wicked monster he is.  Did she not, as Lady S. noted, predict that he'd kill them all if they could?

 

Little known fact.  The book that Tyrion was reading while travelling with Jon Snow to the Wall was titled "How to Blatantly Murder Your Nephew & Get Away With It By Claiming You're Too Smart To Have Blatantly Murdered Him".

[Conan Troutman]

That would've been one hell of a Columbo episode. 

[Constantinople]

Just realized what Tyrion's real problem is.

 

Tywin's desparate to cut back on expenses.  That's the real reason he told Tyrion no whores in King's Landing in Season 1.  KL whores are mother-effing expensive.

 

Now that the gold mines have run dry, some Lannisters have become surplus to requirements

 

Can't kill Alton, Martyn, Martyn's brother or Joffrey. They're already dead.  The Martells are paying for Myrcella's upkeep.  Tommen and Cersei are needed so they can get their hands on more of the Tyrell money.  Jaime's needs are few.  Tywin isn't going to volunteer himself, plus he's 67 so even if he volunteered he would'nt be saving that much over the long-term.

 

But Tyrion's still alive, in his 30s and he's a spendthrift.  He's the logical candidate for redundancy.

[Conan Troutman]

Nice thought. Plus they don't have Sansa any more, and I guess the ability to produce a Lannister heir to Winterfell and possibly the North was the only value Tyrion hat in Tywin's mind. 

I still think it's more of an emotional issue with Tywin, but those facts certainly don't help Tyrion. 

 

Oh, and wouldn't he want to get rid of Cersei then, too? Yeah, she might secure some of the Tyrell money, but when you count the cost of all this expensive wine she's boozing down all day against it, I'm not sure we're talking about positive numbers here...

Edited May 14, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Lady S.]

Wine is not an expense, it's a necessity for a Lannister.

[NoWillToResist]

 

they don't have Sansa any more, and I guess the ability to produce a Lannister heir to Winterfell and possibly the North was the only value Tyrion hat in Tywin's mind.

 

Would it be weird if I was rooting for Sansa and Tyrion to reconnect, have a family and totally renounce the Lannister name? I just think that would be a lovely 'fuck you' to Tywin.

 

Like, "oh hey, dad. Remember how you hated me and wished I'd died? Yeah, well, here I am, respectably married, a respectable member of society, with lovely children to carry on my name (unlike your other kids), only I've decided to take my wife's name, so my kids will be known as Starks. Burn in hell." ;)

[Holmbo]

Would it be weird if I was rooting for Sansa and Tyrion to reconnect, have a family and totally renounce the Lannister name? I just think that would be a lovely 'fuck you' to Tywin.

 

Like, "oh hey, dad. Remember how you hated me and wished I'd died? Yeah, well, here I am, respectably married, a respectable member of society, with lovely children to carry on my name (unlike your other kids), only I've decided to take my wife's name, so my kids will be known as Starks. Burn in hell." ;)

That would be nice :)

Or start a whole new family line. The Fyts (for Fuck You Tywin). Hmm I'm sure there must be a better one.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Holmbo

[Constantinople]

Oh, and wouldn't he want to get rid of Cersei then, too? Yeah, she might secure some of the Tyrell money, but when you count the cost of all this expensive wine she's boozing down all day against it, I'm not sure we're talking about positive numbers here...

 

Tywin is getting rid of Cersei.  He's marrying her off to Loras, so the Tyrells will have to pay for her upkeep.

 

Until then, Tywin can recommended several boxed wines that Cersei might enjoy, or perhaps 2 Buck Chuck.

 

Though it's possible the intoxication of destroying her brother has temporarily minimized the need for alcoholic intoxicants.

[CletusMusashi]

I think the reason he acted up so much at this trial was the same reason he acted up so much at the other one. The idea was work the crowd into such a furor that they would all be cheering to see him not only killed, but also hacked and humiliated in trial by combat. If the idea wasn't popular, Tywin might simply pull some legalese excuse out of his ass and deny the option. But Tywin knows that sometimes you've got to let the people have their circuses.

This way, even if Tyrion has to fight it himself, there's still a tiny long shot of victory. Maybe, say, The Mountain or whoever will underestimate him so much that he tries to kill him while eating lunch, and ends up choking to death on a pickle. There's still a better chance of that happening than of Tywin suddenly declaring Tyrion to be not guilty.

Tywin's not after the truth. He's after results that specifically suit his agendas. So getting everybody emotional about it was a way of slightly weakening Tywin's ability to control it. Same thing happened at the Eyrie, when Tyrion's antics convinced most of the room that they wanted to see him defeated in combat, thereby putting pressure on those who would much rather he departed quickly by way of moon door.

[Constantinople]

This way, even if Tyrion has to fight it himself, there's still a tiny long shot of victory. Maybe, say, The Mountain or whoever will underestimate him so much that he tries to kill him while eating lunch, and ends up choking to death on a pickle.

 

 

Perhaps Tyrion's strategy is to be declared the victor after the Mountain laughs himself to death.

[CletusMusashi]

From what we've seen of Gregor, I think that him choking on a pickle is more probable than him laughing.

However, Tywin is even less likely to choke on a pickle, and also not real big on the laughs.

Gregor can be outsmarted more easily than Tywin.

Ser Loras demonstrated that a long time ago.

Insert obligatory pickle joke here.

Edited May 16, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[CletusMusashi]

I'm re-watching Season 1, and kind of confused about what Tyrion has been doing for most of his adult life. Was he living in King Robert's castle the entire time? We don't get any hints that he's ever held any kind of job, yet he doesn't seem to have financial issues, either. Nor, actually, does he seem to suffer from a bad work ethic. I can't believe that Tywin spent over a decade throwing a wine and whore allowance at his unemployed adult son while bitching about it, because... Tywin is not that stupid. Tyrion mooching loans off of Jaime I could see, but not absolutely non-stop for that long. If that were the case, we should have heard some mention of it. There are mentions of Tyrion occasionally gambling, but the narrative does not do anything to indicate that it's a source of professional income.

What was he doing all those years? And don't say "drinking" or "fucking," because everybody does those things in their leisure time.

The question is: what was he doing to pay for his leisure time?

[Lady S.]

Tyrion says to Varys in s2 that his job was overseeing the sewer system at Casterly Rock. Tywin knows just how to honor him with a useful post.

[CletusMusashi]

Hmm. Maybe he could lighten up a little bit on the hooch then

If the sewers were actually working, maybe people in the castle wouldn't always be using chamber pots.

ETA: Oh. At Casterly Rock. I get it. So he was still an outsider to Robert's castle, hence the over-the-top whorehouse antics when he was able to get some vacation time joining the royal entourage up to Winterfell. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[bluvelvet]

I think Tyrion always had access to the Lannister cash/gold. Tywin might hate him but he's still a Lannister so he wouldn't cut him off. I got the sense that Tyrion was living a life of leisure, probably like other nobles at the time and didn't really "work". Since Tywin lived at Casterly Rock I don't see Tyrion hanging around there that much. Prior to becoming the Hand I don't think he had any real responsibilities.

[Lady S.]

ETA: Oh. At Casterly Rock. I get it. So he was still an outsider to Robert's castle, hence the over-the-top whorehouse antics when he was able to get some vacation time joining the royal entourage up to Winterfell. 

From Tyrion's intro scene in the pilot, where Jaime tries to speed up his whoring so Tyrion will join them at the feast, my headcanon is Jaime invited him along to join their entourage. So he'd have someone to hang out with when Cersei was busy, since he didn't want to be left alone with "these people". From there Tyrion invited himself along to visit the Wall, but he had to invite himself there, because Uncle Ben didn't want him around.

 

 

I think Tyrion always had access to the Lannister cash/gold. Tywin might hate him but he's still a Lannister so he wouldn't cut him off. I got the sense that Tyrion was living a life of leisure, probably like other nobles at the time and didn't really "work". Since Tywin lived at Casterly Rock I don't see Tyrion hanging around there that much. Prior to becoming the Hand I don't think he had any real responsibilities.

It's like the discussion in the House Lannister thread about the importance of Tywin keeping up the appearance of great wealth. If the lowest of Tywin's brood isn't "as rich as a Lannister", it's an embarrassment to all of them. Bad enough to have a dwarf son, a poor dwarf who still represents the Lannisters of Casterly Rock is even more disgraceful. (Which does beg the question of why Tywin didn't save money and make use of Tyrion's mind by sending him to became a maester. I assume Tywin sees that as a path for lesser nobles/bastards/commoners, and thinks a son of the main line of a Great House serving someone else's castle would be a disgrace in itself. And moreso he'd have to give up the prized family name to do that, when Tyrion's legitimate Lannister blood was Tywin's reason for letting him live. As Tyrion told Jon Snow, he could've been left to die if he was born a peasant, but as a Lannister of Casterly Rock, he has a duty to his House.)   Along those lines, I think it's possible Tyrion did live full time at Casterly Rock keeping charge of the sewers. Tyrion has been under Tywin's thumb the entire time we've seen them together, from going into a battle in the riverlands where Tyrion thought he would likely be killed, to marrying Sansa. The last time he acted with freedom was during his teen rebellion phase where he made an unsuitable marriage that Tywin punished him dearly for. So I think Tywin wouldn't give Tyrion free rein to be a roaming playboy. He'd probably be more inclined to keep Tyrion on a tight leash and give him menial responsibility to keep busy.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

I presume Tyrion was at Casterly Rock at some point in his adulthood to serve as Lord Plumber  -- perhaps someone could write The Drains of Casterly Rock to the tune of The Rains of Castamere -- but I just assumed Tyrion was living in King's Landing at the time Robert & Co. visited Ned.  Partly because nothing was ever mentioned about Tyrion meeting them mid-route, but also based on Tyrion's comment to Catelyn later in S1 that her sister Lysa was "...always a little touched, but she's changed".  Lysa was living with her husband, Jon Arryn, who was in King's Landing.  Tyrion couldn't very well have observed her changed behavior from Casterly Rock.  So, by the time the series had started, Tyrion had laid down his plunger, or it required only moderate oversight that didn't require his full time presence at the Rock.  Tyrion certainly had plenty of time to travel up to the Wall and back.

[Lady S.]

Well, his sister was the Queen and he was an uncle to the royal children, he surely had plenty of opportunity to visit court. (And we know Jaime also visited Tyrion back at Casterly Rock, because Tyrion's unfortunate marriage at 16 would have been after Jaime was already in the Kingsguard.) At the least, the whole family would be invited to events like Prince Joffrey's name day tourney, where Jaime lost to Loras, which happened shortly before Jon Arryn's death. He could have made that an extended visit once Jon Arryn fell ill, and things got interesting, and therefore still been around when Robert decided to go North. I'm pretty sure his time as Hand was his first time living full-time in King's Landing, since he had no post at court before and couldn't just live in the brothels. He arrives during King Joffrey's name day tourney in s2, obviously a less open celebration, and Joffers is surprised not just that Tyrion survived a battle, but also that he then chose to come to the capital during wartime, which seems a dumb question, even for Joffrey, if King's Landing was Tyrion's home. He wasn't chained to the drains of Casterly Rock, but I just don't see him laying down the plunger and being invited by Cersei to join the royal household with no responsibilities.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

Pity that Tyrion didn't have a Giant as his champion.

 

Any one of them looked as if they could have drop kicked the Mountain into Blackwater Bay.