S03.E13: Join Or Die

[Tara Ariano]

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Clarke embarks on a mission that could change everything. Meanwhile, Murphy gains information that could help ensure his survival; and Kane reaches his breaking point.

[AnnaMayWong]

Utterly lame.

[Solace247]

So, just so we're clear... Bellamy's still a crying douche, right?!

[thuganomics85]

Great, now Kane got forced into the City of the Light.  Honestly, I don't understand why it took Alie, Jaha, etc. that long to figure out that torture and physical pain wouldn't work.  They should have just gone straight to "Take the key, or we will kill Abbie", just like they did to Abbie herself.  Would have saved a lot of time.  But this is just getting depressing now.

I can't even began to comprehend what in the hell is going on with Bellamy.  He seems so flummoxed that Octavia is still pissed at him.  Does he really not understand what he did was pretty damn bad?  He was part of a group that massacred 300 or so Grounders, and yet he's all "But I didn't kill Lincoln!  And I turned in Pike!  So.... we're all good, now?", and then acts like a hurt puppy when Octavia tells him to fuck off.  I just have no clue what the writers are doing her.  And then they have Clarke just simply be all "Just give her time!", and look at him with pitiful eyes.  Boo, Clarke! Don't let his puppy dog act blind you from what he did!

So, thanks to all this crazy shit, not only is Pike still alive, they're heading towards him, Murphy, and Indra forming some kind of unholy alliance in order to take on the City of Light.  Pike is the lucky bastard on the planet.

The flashbacks were kind of fun in seeing how young everyone looked back then.  Disappointed thought that we didn't get a Wells cameo.

The group finds Luna, who is with some group who is living on a oil rig, and her response to becoming the new commander is a big, fat "No."  Going to have to come up with a better pitch, Clarke!

[Solace247]

46 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I can't even began to comprehend what in the hell is going on with Bellamy.  He seems so flummoxed that Octavia is still pissed at him.  Does he really not understand what he did was pretty damn bad?  He was part of a group that massacred 300 or so Grounders, and yet he's all "But I didn't kill Lincoln!  And I turned in Pike!  So.... we're all good, now?", and then acts like a hurt puppy when Octavia tells him to fuck off.  I just have no clue what the writers are doing her.  And then they have Clarke just simply be all "Just give her time!", and look at him with pitiful eyes.  Boo, Clarke! Don't let his puppy dog act blind you from what he did!

So, thanks to all this crazy shit, not only is Pike still alive, they're heading towards him, Murphy, and Indra forming some kind of unholy alliance in order to take on the City of Light.  Pike is the lucky bastard on the planet.

 

Bellamy is insufferable! I'll admit I was never really a fan, but I've never been aggravated with his character more than I am now. Season one Belkamy was acceptable. Season two Bellamy pleasurable. Season three--insufferable. A good chunk of my aggravation is coming, not just from his massacreing, village clearing, envoy shooting shenanigans, but from making Clarke's character refuse to call him out at all because apparently she equates her actions with his? Is this what I'm supposed to take away from this? He continues to be a douche. I just can't. Man, Clarke is disappointing me.

Don't get me started with Pike and his anvilicious flashbacks. "See guys? He really cares!!!" I do not care about Pike. In fact, I refuse to care because of how much time his shitty arc took up and how heavy-handed this flashback episode was at showing us his 'layers'. This guy will NEVER know how many times him and his people were almost wiped out. Luckiest guy alive is right. 

I've got to hand it to the Bellamy lovers out there. Kudos, for getting on board with this arc. It obviously required a lot of work. I'm obviously not a huge fan of Bellamy's, but what they've done to his character this season is ridiculous and I just want him gone. It's one thing to take him in this direction--it's another to have him continue to be a douche even after having done the things he's done. Screw the head and heart co-leadership, blah, blah. It's making me cringe (and shake with fury) having to watch this play out. There are not enough hugs and Bellamy tears in the world to make me care in the least. Is it bad that I'm envisioning Bellamy atop the Polis tower holding ALIE's backpack up to the sky amidst a lightning storm in one last-ditch attempt to destroy it a la EMP and free mankind? This is the only Bellamy arc I can muster up a damn about--a hero's death--redemption earned.

[Halliwell]

That was pretty much terrible. Like most of this season.

I thought they were doing a good job at destroying Clarke's character the last few eps with her many "It's all my fault" and "I'm sorry" and pretty much taking everything her dear good friends threw her way but the writers outdid themselves last night. Seeing her comforting, making excuses and hugging Bellamy makes me sick. Poor whiny boy is sad that her little sis is mad at him. How long is she going to be pissed at him for Lincoln's death and slaughtering 299 people in their sleep? Really, Octavia, you are so unreasonable. Give the guy a break. Don't you see his tears? LOL I need this character gone because I really can't stand it. But alas, not happening for sure.

These writers think that what Clarke did at MW and Bellamy did can compare so I shouldn't be shocked they are doing this but it's so painful to see Clarke right now. She is my favorite but there is only so much I can take. 

I'm not even going to comment on Pike. Why is he not dead, for the love of God. All the Polis stuff right now is... ugh. And Luna has showed up. Okay.

At this point I'm just hate-watching the show and holding on because I love Eliza, but the writting of Clarke can make it very easy to say goodbye after the season finale. To think I used to enjoy this show so much... Wow.

[AudienceofOne]

Wow, this Bellamy stuff has really messed up this season. I spent so much of this episode thinking that without that thorn I could probably be carried along with this. But Bellamy still thinking his biggest crime is Lincoln's death just coloured everything around it. I could handle it two episodes ago when they were talking about how Bellamy won't receive external blame for his actions because he's always just a follower. But it's another thing for him to be crying because his sister won't forgive him for Lincoln... while forgetting he slaughtered 300 people while they slept and was willing to wipe out a village of unarmed civilians for their land. Sorry, but "I was so angry when you left" (while true) isn't enough.

The problem with this is that Indra killing Pike would have been the release we need for these crimes. Indra skewering Pike? Perfect. But as soon as she said "300 cuts", I sighed. I knew exactly what would happen. And it did.

I typed a whole thing before the forums crashed for the third time about how the lack of Bellamy's redemption arc is increasingly convincing me his "redemption" is going to be dying for his sister. Because a lot of the emotional beats between him and Clarke in this episode are beats that I loved in Season 1 and 2. Now they're falling completely flat. So either the writers are completely obtuse or they're setting up his death.

[Solace247]

30 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Wow, this Bellamy stuff has really messed up this season. I spent so much of this episode thinking that without that thorn I could probably be carried along with this. But Bellamy still thinking his biggest crime is Lincoln's death just coloured everything around it. I could handle it two episodes ago when they were talking about how Bellamy won't receive external blame for his actions because he's always just a follower. But it's another thing for him to be crying because his sister won't forgive him for Lincoln... while forgetting he slaughtered 300 people while they slept and was willing to wipe out a village of unarmed civilians for their land. Sorry, but "I was so angry when you left" (while true) isn't enough.

I agree. Bellamy isn't even mourning Lincoln as a person, let alone friend. He is simply ticked that his sister continues to hold it against him hours after burning him on a funeral pyre! WTF?! A lot of people are saying that criticism has hit an all-time high because of Lexa's death (can't fully dispute that) and I'll be the first to admit it certainly gutted me, but the Pike/Bellamy storyline for me is what tainted the season to begin with and continues to do so. If the storyline had finished, perhaps I could move on and enjoy these episodes as many seem to be able to do, but alas Pike lives to be rewritten via flashback and Bellamy lives to make everyone around him service his shitty story. I resent the writers' overt machinations. I'm riding out what used to be my favourite show until the finale in the hopes that SOME likeable characters will survive along with MOST of the unlikeable ones dying, but dread has taken up residence in my very core when I think of the opposite happening. Yet another reason I am unable to muster anything greater than mild interest in the remaining episodes.

30 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

I typed a whole thing before the forums crashed for the third time about how the lack of Bellamy's redemption arc is increasingly convincing me his "redemption" is going to be dying for his sister. Because a lot of the emotional beats between him and Clarke in this episode are beats that I loved in Season 1 and 2. Now they're falling completely flat. So either the writers are completely obtuse or they're setting up his death.

I've actually been entertaining the thought of Bellamy dying this year, but realized this would be a big ask. But maybe JRoth is all about giving shipping moments and then killing off both ships. I'd actually give him mad props for that. I hesitated to bring up the possibility of Bellamy dying in any forum, but WTH. It's the only resolution I'll take. I'm equal opportunity--when Finn shot up a village, I required no less--the same stands for Bellamy.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Solace247

[ottoDbusdriver]

Massive blood pools in the streets, crucifixations aplenty -- the City of Light seems like a really cool place to visit.

Is the offshore oil platform in the opening credits going to come into play at some point ?  Are the drones ever going to make a re-appearance ?

Wow, there's a lot of retconning going on in this "6 months earlier" flashback.  So it's only been 5 and 1/2 months since 'The 100' landed on Earth, and Pike somehow gave 99 of the 100 2 weeks worth of a survival training crash course with none of them figuring it out what for.  Not even Murphy.

Octavia's little yell of angst when they found the "village" was just silly.

Where were Octavia's mad survival skills in Season 1 ?  Because she was clueless as everyone else back then.  Remember 'Camp Do Whatever We Want' and what a shit show that was ?

Oh look, Lincoln was telling them how to contact Luna because of a twig in the his diary.  Sure he did.

Really ?  ALIE and her minions have such high moral standards that they won't force anyone to take the key -- that just seems stupid.  Really, really stupid. The whole free will thing has to be the Achilles heel to ALIE's control.

And about the whole "sunbeams coming in through the holes in the container wall" scene, apparently the sun can be in two different places in the sky at once,

And they finally get to meet Luna -- who has apparently not changed her hairstyle since Lincoln made that drawing in his diary. And apparently Luna has a curling iron because her 'do is very stylish.

Finally, the oil platform comes into play -- so is this tribe called the BPkru ?  And how in the hell did they spot that tiny fire on the shore ?  Luckily they appear to have a tugboat.  But it begs the question where does the BPkru get their food from ? And while they showed the 4 legs of the oil platform in the water, there was no drilling gear under the derrick -- so where are they getting the fuel from to feed those fires onboard ?  I seriously doubt this platform would still be standing after 97 years -- salt water corrosion alone would have eaten away at this.

And per the preview,

Spoiler

ALIE's backpack power source is nuclear powered and back in play after being completely ignored since about Episode 3 of this season.  Apparently one of the writers remembered it existed.

Edited April 30, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[blixie]

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I'd actually give him mad props for that.

I will NEVER give JR props. Never. Every single aspect of this seasons has been an offensive mess. Including the torture of a black man, while his white counterpart pouts because his sister doesn't like him. Killing Pike would have been less offensive and more satisfying.

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 Because a lot of the emotional beats between him and Clarke in this episode are beats that I loved in Season 1 and 2.

Right? We have been here before! This lazy SOB, literally recycled 90% of the dialogue and blocking from Day Trip, which y'know was a tough enough sell in S1, given that Bellamy's actions only contributed to the deaths of the 320 people form the Culling,  because we SAW it all go down, and we understood the situation was complicated, those who died sacrificed themselves, and there was no guarantee even with the radio they'd have made contact. 

Replaying those beats now, and trying to sell a false equivalency between Clark killing 318 people in Mt. Weather including Children with Bellamy killing 300 sleeping peacekeeping allies, including children? Not the same, and yeah I figured the only reason to do this to Bellamy was to kill him off. Because his body count right now is 620 to Clarke's 318. But y'know he didn't kill Lincoln! I honestly don't know what reaction their going for, and I can't honestly say I care, but I do know that I love Bellarke hugs and the chemistry between Bob/Eliza, is always on point, even when they have to shovel their way out of hack writing.

And Clarke, wow, she just stands around and watches other people do stuff now, oh and counsels fellow mass murders about their feels. Murphy is now going to save the day because y'know letting a strong female character stay at the center of her own show was asking way way too much.

I do like the purely hypothetical potential of Luna, but this show can't even serve the character it has now well (Roan still missing, Raven, Monty all MIA this week). The sooner this season is over, and I can wipe it from my memory, the better. 

[kdm07]

3 hours ago, blixie said:

Murphy is now going to save the day because y'know letting a strong female character stay at the center of her own show was asking way way too much.

Strong female characters left this show when they decided to give Bellamy the voice-overs for this season.

I took the plunge and watched this episode because I was curious about Luna. I wish I hadn't.

- I've touched on the retconning of Luna's character before but it was back again in this episode.

- Speaking of retconning...5 months?! All of this has gone down in 5 months?! I'm sorry but how are any of these characters still functioning from a mental and emotional standpoint?

- Excuse the language but eff you Bellamy! If it wasn't for the fact that you have unbelievably thick plot armour (Jason has already previously stated that Bellamy is a hero) I'd be actively rooting for your death. At least Finn went out after he was set up by the writers to act like an idiot but we're stuck with your stupid self forever clearly. "How long Octavia?" Seriously eff you bruh!

- Pike the teacher flashbacks were like trying to make a stone bleed. I felt nothing and will continue to feel nothing for this incredibly frustrating character. No Wells, no Finn either. Oh and the great teacher that is Pike really emphasises his lessons by beating his students. Too bad all his teachings went out the window the minute those kids landed on earth (yes show, we haven't forgotten those first few episodes even though you clearly think we have).

- I'm bringing this podcast by Mo Ryan and Ryan McGee that they did in January back because their concern over the Pike/Bellamy arch and how it could affect the show going forward was spot on, and they'd only watched the first four episodes of the season: http://talkingtvwithryanandryan.libsyn.com/episode-174-the-one-with-too-many-shows-to-incorporate-into-a-punny-episode-title  The 100 starts around 1h 23minutes. (Bolded for emphasis)

- So Polis is some wannabe GOT-style city now? Writers, I know people have previously compared you to BSG and GOT (which...lol) but we didn't mean literally lift aspects of those shows and put them into your show without some amendment. It's tacky and shows a lack of creativity on your part.

I had planned on maybe watching the rest of this season over the summer because of Clarke but the systematic destruction of her character to prop up Bellamy has me at breaking point. I'll watch the season finale and then I'm out. I can't take any more of the mess that's being served up as "groundbreaking" writing by Jason Rothenberg and his team of writers.

Edited April 29, 2016 by kdm07

[quarks]

If nothing else, this episode wins kudos from me for finally answering the "how are they powering the car?" question - solar powered! Thanks, show.  And I loved Luna's, "Become Commander? Nah, I'm good," response. Most sensible response from anyone this entire season.  

But then there's the other stuff:  

1.  Clarke's horse watch: episode 5 and counting, and still no word on what happened to the horse, or if it's even alive. We get that you're now apparently ok with killing 300 Grounders in their sleep, Clarke, but do you care nothing about that horse?

2. Hey, Bellamy, if you're really trying to mend your relationship with Octavia, maybe try not trying to suggest to your sister that if she'd only trusted you, Lincoln might still be alive? 

3. Given that you're all aware that there's an AI around taking over the minds of Grounders and trying to conquer the world, why did you just leave the very useful truck out there unlocked and easily stolen by everyone, oh gifted leaders Clarke and Bellamy?

4. Do the oil rig people have a little garden on the rig, or do they just live on seaweed and fish? If they are getting green veggies and stuff from the mainland, do they have waterproof sacks to drag that stuff underwater?

5. Did the oil rig people deliberately plant trees with branches that would create green flames, or was that 

6. How many chips does ALIE have?

7. Why is ALIE insisting on crucifying people instead of just killing them outright? I'd think the killing outright would be equally effective in convincing people to swallow those chips - they even showed that in this episode.

Incidentally, if the idea here was to start to redeem Pike in the flashbacks, it didn't work for me - all I got out of that was that Pike was the sort of guy who would hit Murphy a lot just to get his point across, which was not all that redeeming.

On a related note, does anyone else think this really needs to be renamed the Everybody Hits Murphy show, or just me? 

[piequinn35]

Did Ontari even speak at all this episode?

[Primetimer]

Two of the post-apocalypse's biggest knuckleheads have a flashback face-off, while Bellamy continues being a burden in the present.

View the full article

[Aeryn13]

I agree that Bellamy`s storyline this Season has been epically mishandled. Both fall and "redemption". At first it made me angry, now it makes me sad to rewatch.

The reason IMO the 300 killed Grounders are largely ignored - and were there children among them? they were sent there as an army for protection, not as a travelling tribe - is because the person who still embodies the anger at Bellamy`s misdeeds is Octavia. And for Octavia, Lincoln`s death was the event horizon. She wasn`t happy with what her brother did previously but her response to him participating in the slaughter was as an exasperated "what the fuck is wrong with you?" She also still warned him out of concern when they were talking into a trap in this abandoned village. She had already forgiven him for all those events and then Lincoln changed her mind. 

Personally, I actually appreciated giving some belated depth to Pike. Bad enough they made him so one-dimensionally evil in the present, last thing I wanted was a mustache-twirling villain in the flashbacks, too. At least this way I can see where and how such a person could break and get twisted. He wasn`t leadership material in the flashbacks and the fact that he was apparently forced into such a role upon landing and then get a really raw deal in their new surroundings helps me to at least understand the character somewhat.

Lexa for example was far younger but she could have weathered such a storm and kept to the person she was but Pike wasn`t ever someone capable of this. He was meek in the flashbacks. If Farm Station just would have had another, more assertive person to lead them, maybe Pike could have been a good SIC or stabilizing force. Instead, oh well.

What did make me avert my eyes was the crucifixation stuff. It`s just such a viscerally brutal form of torture. Points for accuracy, though, you don`t drive nails through the palms of the hands but the joints because the palms can`t support the weight of the body. You`d literally rip yourself off from the cross. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Lion]

Didn't the kids on the dropship initially treat Octavia as though it was the first time they had seen her up close?

Talk about completely gratuitous violence with that crucifixion.  ALIE already knew there was no reason for it to be done considering the great success she experienced after getting Abby to drink the koolaid swallow the chip.  The only reason for the script to not immediately go the route of threatening Abby's life is because they wanted to include some completely unnecessary violence.  Guess they thought it was edgy.  Instead, it's only stupid.  

[xaxat]

Given the low bar established by this season, I kind of liked this episode.

I (finally) picked up on the themes the writers thought they were exploring. If last season was about people making choices they knew had a high probability of making everyone worse off, then this season is about those same people being stripped of free will in pursuit of an outcome that makes people "better" off. 

I think that's an interesting contrast! But the writers totally blew it. Bellamy's arc. (I annoyed me when everybody around the campfire looked at Octavia like she wasn't totally justified in hating him for his actions.) Torture porn. (Were we really supposed to be surprised that Jaha's trump card was to threaten Abby's life?) Clarke is still just along for the ride (literally) instead of actually doing shit. . . ugh.

[Nay]

I enjoyed it, the show has been getting better now the kids are back together and the AI storyline has really taken off.  Loved seeing the kiddies all clean and sulky on the Arc and it was nice to see a few faces of the dead. 

I'm very much in the minority but I don't get wound up about fictional violence so the Polis stuff really didn't bother me to watch, and it made perfect sense for Jaha to go this route. If only 3% are rejecting the chip then stringing up a few as an example will work to turn the remaining holdouts. Death is quick, torture is long and very painful. If its 'take the chip or die quickly' vs. 'take the chip or have days of prolonged pain' then I can see Jaha thinking he is likely to get more results with the second option.

 

A couple of thing that I've seen here and elsewhere online is the 'retcon 6 months' and 'Octavia being known already'.  

The timeline is fairly well established in the show and most people seem to have estimated it at about 5 to 6 months. Wikia even has a day to event count as well I think.  The timeline being so short does lead to problems for me as a viewer, because we are expected to buy into emotional moments that for me just can't have had actual time to develop. But thats a whole other issue. 

The Octavia thing is addressed in this very episode, Jaha and Kane tell Pike that the 99 will be broken into much smaller groups.  Octavia is in one group of about 20.  That leaves 80 who have no idea who she is when the dropship lands.. So I have no problem with a few of those 80 going 'ooh its the floor girl' when they land. 

[AudienceofOne]

My problem with the Polis violence was the hackneyed "Roman empire" religious imagery. This show has always flirted with religious references and imagery. Jaha's character makes sense as a misguided Messiah who tried to die for his cause and failed and has been flailing around trying to find a new way to earn his redemption. Also, he's the worst.

But this imagery was so unsubtle: Kane being crucified by the compromised ruler serving the false religion. Choosing on the cross to save his own soul or someone else's and sacrificing himself for them. Tonally it just made my eyes roll. There's nothing more uninspired than religious imagery, especially imagery this blunt.

Add to that the redemption arcs of Bellamy and Pike - mass-murdering purveyors of war crimes no less - and suddenly we have a season that's practically a parable. Everything can be forgiven, people, you just have to forgive yourself first. And you don't need somebody offering you a false 'City of Light' to do it. But Kane still sacrificed himself on the cross for you and that's why you should follow him. 

Ergh.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Well, I liked that this Luna isn't quite the idiot Clarke thought she was, so she naturally rejected Clarke's offer.

Everything else though was either so bad it's funny or so bad it's horrible. A few episodes ago I joked that the show was turning into the network TV equivalent of torture porn and this joke just seems less and less funny. More importantly, I just can't fathom why ALIE would need to use torture at all - either taking the pill only works when done voluntarily in which case it wouldn't have worked in the cases of Abby, Kane, etc. or it does work in which case she can just have her minions shove it down people's throats, no crucifixions needed. Also, it makes ALIE a sort of cartoonish villain that makes the machines from say The Matrix look positively full-fleshed in comparison.

The Indra that I knew wouldn't have bothered torturing Pike or at least wouldn't have relented after Murphy's rather unconvincing defence of him. But plot armor can lead to such ugly OOC moments, how many have we had this seasons? What's the number after infinity?

Bellamy should be studied in writing schools as an example how not to do redemption arcs. Even I couldn't believe he had the gall to ask "How long are you going to be mad at me, O?" And of course, Clarke had to go to soothe his hurt feelings because... I don't know why, other than a bone to throw to certain shippers. "The important thing is that you forgive yourself". Spoken like a true enabler. Or should I say, like the love interest of the Karma Houdini in every shitty redemption arc.

Though, Pike's arc seems certain to give Bellamy a run for its money in terms of sheer ineptitude. He couldn't think of anything better other than physically assaulting Murphy? And that's supposed to make me feel he was such a great teacher? Who writes this crap? I am starting to feel bad for the guy who play Pike, I can just picture him reading the script and wondering how the hell is supposed to sell these scenes.

Good thing the grounder politics are turning to be so important in the grand scheme of thing because we spent so much time on that early in the season, Oh, wait, Ontari is basically an extra with a few lines now and the Arkadia-Grounder coalition conflict is now everyone versus the evil computer. Yay?

Quote

I typed a whole thing before the forums crashed for the third time about how the lack of Bellamy's redemption arc is increasingly convincing me his "redemption" is going to be dying for his sister. Because a lot of the emotional beats between him and Clarke in this episode are beats that I loved in Season 1 and 2. Now they're falling completely flat. So either the writers are completely obtuse or they're setting up his death.

I will eat my hat if they kill Bellamy. Then take some popcorn and enjoy the outbursts of joy and indignation on the interwebz. Sadly, it's not going to happen. They are that obtuse - the scene where Indra spared Pike alone proves as much.

Come to think of it, it's somewhat funny that they spent that much screen time on Pike's flashbacks in this episode but are still to show us a single second of his experiences on Earth prior to season 3 - you know, the reason for his descent into genocidal ruthlessness. It would have even served his whitewashing arc better but no, better show him beat up on teens to show how much he cares.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Jack Shaftoe

[Lion]

1 hour ago, Nay said:

 

I'm very much in the minority but I don't get wound up about fictional violence so the Polis stuff really didn't bother me to watch, and it made perfect sense for Jaha to go this route. If only 3% are rejecting the chip then stringing up a few as an example will work to turn the remaining holdouts. Death is quick, torture is long and very painful. If its 'take the chip or die quickly' vs. 'take the chip or have days of prolonged pain' then I can see Jaha thinking he is likely to get more results with the second option.

Sigh.  It's not about getting 'wound up about fictional violence' or being 'bothered' to watch, but about gratuitous violence.  You'll notice that you haven't seen anyone remarking on Indra's violence against Pike. That was earned, it fit with what we know of the characters, and it served the story.  Kane's crucifixion was gratuitous.  The story had already determined that threatening the lives of chipped individuals was the fastest route to getting someone to swallow the chip.  This prolonged torture served no purpose considering the known method is the one that worked in the end.  The torture served no purpose in the story other than to just toss in their beloved and disgusting religious imagery.  In this way, it was bothersome.  At least to viewers who care about how stories are told.  Some obviously don't.  

[AudienceofOne]

I don't disagree with you about this episode but I do disagree that the Pike flashbacks were about painting him as the "good guy". If anything, they portray him as a weak man who quickly resorts to violence in times of stress. I felt it was more an attempt by the writers to finally explain the character and why he does what he does. My problem is that I don't care. Pike's awful. Understanding why he's awful doesn't interest me at this stage. They should have had more flashbacks to Farm Station earlier in the season so we could see the way this kind of person becomes the xenophobic genocidal asshole he is. I might have been interested then. At this stage I just want him gone.

Also, it made perfect sense to me for Indra to enact the Grounder tradition of torture before killing Pike. We've seen all Grounders respond to crimes in exactly this way. It's just that "300 cuts" was going to take such a long time that it was an obvious set-up for her to change her mind and delay revenge. I only hope it's delayed though. I hope the final scene of the final episode of this season is them winning over the AI and Indra going, "Well, that's done now. Truce over." And skewering him with something sharp and dirty.

Re Bellamy -  I don't think this is fan servicing at all. If anything I think this is the writers desperately trying to course-correct to the status quo. This show was always best when Clarke and Bellamy worked together - Queen and Knight, Pack Leader and Alpha (thanks, Wolfblood), Captain and Sargeant, however you like to look at it - and so they're trying to veer sharply back to that. But while I'd personally like to forget the stupid that was Bellamy's OOC behaviour this season, it happened. And the show is trying to pretend it didn't. Either that's deliberate and they're going to deal with it through killing him off. Or they're floundering and the cracks are showing.

[Jack Shaftoe]

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Also, it made perfect sense to me for Indra to enact the Grounder tradition of torture before killing Pike. We've seen all Grounders respond to crimes in exactly this way.

But that's when there is no danger of being interrupted. What if the guards had heard Pike's cries of pain and come to rescue him? I mean, they need them alive to take the stupid chip, after all.

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I don't disagree with you about this episode but I do disagree that the Pike flashbacks were about painting him as the "good guy". If anything, they portray him as a weak man who quickly resorts to violence in times of stress.

In Rothenberg's world, if you don't resort quickly to violence you are dead, so it's not just okay - it's actually commendable. So he wasn't being weak - he was showing leadership - which eventually saved his life (albeit, through the power of plot contrivance). Okay, maybe I am exaggerating a little but why bother with such an extensive flashback if not to whitewash Pike, even if just a little bit? Murphy could have saved him anyway without any flashbacks.

[ottoDbusdriver]

12 hours ago, quarks said:

1.  Clarke's horse watch: episode 5 and counting, and still no word on what happened to the horse, or if it's even alive. We get that you're now apparently ok with killing 300 Grounders in their sleep, Clarke, but do you care nothing about that horse?

Seriously, where is that horse ?  Did Clarke tie it to a tree outside the Grounder blockade and let it starve to death while she is off galavanting through the woods looking for Luna ?

[patchwork]

This season is going from bad writing to even worse writing. 

What was with Octavia dramatic screaming?

And how dare she not forgive her brother for his mass murdering ways, he's been a sulky puppy for a whole day and a half dammit.

I've been waiting on that Bellarke hug all season but coming in the midst of Bellamy's pity party and Clarke's enabling of said pity party I was nothing but annoyed.

Pike's flashback might have worked better in one of the earlier episodes, when the character desperately needed some depth, but I was sure right until Indra stopped slicing him up that he was going to die because we were treated to an extensive Finn flashback in episode he died. I would say something about fool me once The 100 here but as it's very unlikely I'll be back for next season they're not going to get the chance to fool me again.  

With all the effort Allie and Jaha put into getting people to take the chip voluntarily people must have to be open to accepting the CoL on some level, maybe they've found forcing it into the unwilling results in 100% failure? I could have done without the torture porn, it could have easily been skipped and just had Abbey's life threatened when she failed to convince Kane to divulge Clarke's whereabouts. 

[Duke Silver]

I finally watched this late last night, after spending some time bargaining w/ myself over whether I would watch or simply walk away from the show for good.  I'm making no effort to be articulate...

--what's w/ all the questioning about the horse?  LOL.  This show can't even handle human characters in palatable ways.  The last thing I expect this crew to address is a horse.

--I find the whole CoL plot beyond lame, at least in its execution.  Too many illogical things to enumerate, and it'd be ad nauseum anyway.

--Clarke really is just a prop now, isn't she?  Her only role now is to prop-up others.  Sad.  She used to be such a compelling character.

--It's been a while since I've wanted a main character to die as badly as I want Bellamy to die.  I know it it's not gonna happen, but I want what I want.

--Ontari, as written since she slaughtered the other nightbloods @ conclave, is pointless.

--I'm struggling to find anything that I actually enjoy about this show anymore.  Rothenberg has already given show watchers the middle finger multiple times, so I'm not sure what can be reasonably expected.  Truly, what's the point of watching anymore?  That's what I've been asking myself.

[RCharter]

13 hours ago, patchwork said:

Pike's flashback might have worked better in one of the earlier episodes, when the character desperately needed some depth, but I was sure right until Indra stopped slicing him up that he was going to die because we were treated to an extensive Finn flashback in episode he died. I would say something about fool me once The 100 here but as it's very unlikely I'll be back for next season they're not going to get the chance to fool me again.  

I also wish Pike's flashback had come earlier.  I think the show is trying to make a point about how the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and Pike started out good, and his intentions were just to protect "his people" and even "the kids.  But the time for that reveal was earlier.  I realize that it won't help him in the eyes of a lot of fans, but I think that even for the point they were trying to make, its too late.  I also assumed Pike was going to die given all the flashbacks.  But it looks like, in the end, it may be the Pike/Jaha showdown.....perhaps Pike ends up dying on that cross.

7 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

I finally watched this late last night, after spending some time bargaining w/ myself over whether I would watch or simply walk away from the show for good.  I'm making no effort to be articulate...

--what's w/ all the questioning about the horse?  LOL.  This show can't even handle human characters in palatable ways.  The last thing I expect this crew to address is a horse.

--I find the whole CoL plot beyond lame, at least in its execution.  Too many illogical things to enumerate, and it'd be ad nauseum anyway.

I always say it, but I think the show is trying to make a point about the mindlessness of organized religion.    And how it has been historically used.  The inquisition, the burning of Protestants by Mary Tudor, the drawing and quartering/hanging by Henry VIII for those who wouldn't swear to the Church of England (which I think, had he lived longer, was simply going to be Catholicism with the monarch taking place of the pope).  That its illogical is part of the point, IMO.

Here, you have to "take a pill," and become a convert, if you refuse to take the pill, you are tortured and killed.  Back in the day, you had to swear loyalty and for some (like Mary Tudor) you had to show true faith or else you were tortured and killed.  

That they actually put Kane on a cross and pretty much crucified him seemed to drive home the point....or that they are exploring themes of organized religion and the role it plays in society.  CoL is heaven.....you aren't expected to do much thinking, but to follow an all powerful leader...so on and so forth.

[Solace247]

1 hour ago, RCharter said:

I also wish Pike's flashback had come earlier.  I think the show is trying to make a point about how the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and Pike started out good, and his intentions were just to protect "his people" and even "the kids.  But the time for that reveal was earlier.  I realize that it won't help him in the eyes of a lot of fans, but I think that even for the point they were trying to make, its too late...

I always say it, but I think the show is trying to make a point about the mindlessness of organized religion.    And how it has been historically used.  The inquisition, the burning of Protestants by Mary Tudor, the drawing and quartering/hanging by Henry VIII for those who wouldn't swear to the Church of England (which I think, had he lived longer, was simply going to be Catholicism with the monarch taking place of the pope).  That its illogical is part of the point, IMO.

...or that they are exploring themes of organized religion and the role it plays in society.  CoL is heaven.....you aren't expected to do much thinking, but to follow an all powerful leader...so on and so forth.

For me, the Pike storyline wasn't enjoyable from the get go and only became worse as it ran on. The fact that he is still on my screen and probably still will be into season four has made me resentful--I fully admit it. The show continues to delve into the 'grey' which is fine, but the fact of the matter is, this season has made Skaikru itself practically despicable. Couple that with all the Jahas and Pikes and Bellamys that are probably going take up narrative real estate next year, and it's sucked all the goodwill I've extended to this show right out of me and sapped me of any real desire to watch next year. There's a fine line between a fascinating exploration of grey characters and a frustratingly unpleasant viewing experience populated with the aforementioned characters. Not all of us are dissecting this show with the eager glee and vigorous intensity of a Master's Lit. Student. We still want a good story.

As for the COL storyline as a reflection on organized religion--as you say (with more observance than I), it's there, but like most of this season in general, it's a veritable pot pourri of random imagery and subtext, with the actual contextual story short-changed. Plot-wise, it's shaping up to be nothing more than hive mind meets the Matrix (which also had it's Judeo-Christian allegory). Sure, they've tossed in some free will/consent/torture issues regarding the COL wafer-taking; Creator/creation and the Fall with Becca/ALIE 1.0/ALIE 2.0; Jaha's/Moses' destiny and leading his people to the promised land; and clearly, they got HIC to grow a beard this season and threw him up on a cross complete with barbed-wire/crown of thorns imagery (despite it being unnecessary since they've already established threatening loved ones is the most efficient means of coercion--but apparently ALIE isn't about efficiency). I just wish they'd had more faith in this story and exercised discernment in allocating time for other stories, including omitting certain story opportunities in favour of a.) a more cohesive and comprehensive season and b.) the remaining stories, the main one being the AI story, being done justice. (And I say all of this as one who audibly groaned when ALIE revealed herself last season.)

I must commend the writers, however, on the AI storyline in general, because it has NOT destroyed the season as I had feared it may have. I leave that distinction to the Pike/Bellamy storyline and in the interest of fairness, to a lesser degree, the Polis politics storyline (only because it now seems a merry-go-round in retrospect, unless Clarke somehow becomes Commander going forward and uses the political experience gleaned, which at this point, I'd consider a saving grace--otherwise, it's another instance of bait-and-switch for the sake of bait-and-switch which of course takes up narrative real estate.)

[RCharter]

^^see, and I wonder if you may have watched Pike's actions with a less jaundiced eye if you had some background....which may have been why it would have been nice to put it in earlier.  But I appreciate your point of view, it all makes sense.  I think some of the questions raised are interesting, but I understand where they might seem boring, annoying, or trod upon territory for others.  as you said, the story should always be the primary concern.

[Solace247]

2 hours ago, RCharter said:

^^see, and I wonder if you may have watched Pike's actions with a less jaundiced eye if you had some background....which may have been why it would have been nice to put it in earlier.  But I appreciate your point of view, it all makes sense.  I think some of the questions raised are interesting, but I understand where they might seem boring, annoying, or trod upon territory for others.  as you said, the story should always be the primary concern.

If I'm being honest the answer would probably still be no, for the simple fact that one of the most annoying parts of the introduction of Pike is that he and his crew came in from nowhere and took over Arkadia (obviously, by election--but shoddy election--where did the council go?). It was annoying to watch--especially because we never actually saw Arkadians, or if we did, they certainly weren't distinguished from farm station, yet we had to follow farm station for half the season--it grates when your characters are in the background. Also, the election was poorly constructed of course, and Kane and Abby written as stupid to facilitste the shoddy electoral process. If I'm going to follow your story, it helps if your characters are written exhibiting some intelligence. To create drama with intelligent characters making the best decisions they can--that's writing. I think they struggle to write more than two stories. Two stories should be their max. It worked in seasons one and two. Season three had the Ice Nation fake out (which may be brought in later), the Polis politics, the Arkadia politics, and the AI storyline at Arkadia with grounder mythology at Polis. It has all suffered as a result.

Also, I was a big fan of Battlestar Galactica--so, scifi and religion--I've seen done and done better. I thought I read somewhere that JRoth had read up on artificial intelligence between seasons, so I guess I was expecting something set apart from other scifi forays, but as the season has gone on, it has simply followed more and more characters getting chipped instead of exploring the concept further.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I must commend the writers, however, on the AI storyline in general, because it has NOT destroyed the season as I had feared it may have. I leave that distinction to the Pike/Bellamy storyline...

I don't know if I can agree. At least the Pike/Bellamy mess can make me get angry at those two and root for their painful death. As for ALIE, I just want this pathetic wannabe Caprica-6 to leave quietly and never came back because it's one of the most illogical, two-dimensional and non-threatening AIs ever.

Quote

. I thought I read somewhere that JRoth had read up on artificial intelligence between seasons...

And yet he makes his AIs as silly as those of the writers of any B-movie or pulp novel. "The AI needs to learn from humans the only way of doing that is to physically put it inside of human body... through genetic manipulation". What?!? And yet the older version of the AI needs no genetic manipulation whatsoever to insert itself into humans. I think instead of reading anything he watched too much Battlestar Galactica but ended up copying only the bad elements, not the good ones. The Cylons story arcs on BSG had a million plot-holes, sure, but some of the Cylons were still fascinating characters with real character development. Here we have ALIE who apparently has the mentality of a small child who doesn't understand what consent actually means and doesn't seem to have changed one iota in a hundred years. How exciting.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Jack Shaftoe

[Gulftastic]

If I were Bellamy or Clarke, and I'd just watched two people collapse to the ground after drinking the Kool Aid, I think I would have at least sat down before knocking my serving back.

[Nay]

3 hours ago, Gulftastic said:

If I were Bellamy or Clarke, and I'd just watched two people collapse to the ground after drinking the Kool Aid, I think I would have at least sat down before knocking my serving back.

They do. Clarke sits down then passes out and falls back, Bell sits then lays down then passes out.

[Gulftastic]

Really? Boy, did my attention wonder! This 

[Duke Silver]

3 hours ago, Gulftastic said:

Really? Boy, did my attention wonder! This 

Don't blame yourself.  My mind often wanders while watching this show these days.

[diebartdie]

Disclaimer, I just finished binging this show, Ive seen every episode but in a drastically compressed time frame. At first, I thought this show was pretty amazing. I loved how all these people were put in these incredibly tough situations where they had to make such terrible decisions and how those choices rippled out, it was just so interesting! Early on in this season, I realized two things pretty much at the same time. #1 Bellamy should have known better (he knew Trikru were masters of their environment, were adept at covert warfare, biological warfare and psychological warfare plus they had overwhelming numbers) and #2 I was 100% on the side of Trikru (and all the "grounder" nation/clans). Why did no one, not Chancellor Griffin, not former Chancellor Kane, not defacto General Blake sit Pike down and explain to him the fragile truce Arkadia had settled into with Trikru? Where did Pike get off thinking "his people", people that had been living IN SPACE for almost 100 years had any claim whatsoever to that spot of land where they had crash landed a few months before? The motivation provided by the writers for Bellamy are so lame. He was butthurt because Clarke decided to take walkabout for a few months and in the meantime Pike came in being all mister aggropants. We finally get some character shading for Pike this episode though! Yep, back on the space station he apparently thought the best way to get through to people was to lose patience with them, fail to understand how to communicate with them and then take out his frustrations by beating the shit out of one of them. Well at least he's consistent.

I love science fiction, always have, it's my favorite genre but this AI thing...I think I hate it so much because this season overall has been such a shitty mess. It almost feels like 2 seasons were crammed into one really. All of the political shenanigans with Lexa's 12 + 1 clans including her death (which should have been a proper assassination) and all the stuff that lead to the rise of Pike would have been plenty for one season. Bellamy could have made much more sense if the story had had room to grow organically, he could have been one tragic hero for real instead of this pile of vomit. The end of this season could have been the reveal of the dual dueling AI's. How it is now though I just hate it and I feel like it made this season so much worse.

I gotta say, it feels really weird that I spent a couple weeks tearing through season 1, 2 and this season and feel like I might drop it at the end of this season but really, this season has been so poorly thought out I may be done. Season 2 I was furious when Finn slaughtered 18 innocents and cheered when he died for it. Here we are nearly done with season 3 and what Bellamy did was far worse yet apparently the writers expect the audience to forgive him like we have Clarke the thing is, Clarke was fighting a war she didnt start; Bellamy was actively starting a war he KNEW  was doomed to failure, he KNEW he was betraying people that had put all their trust in (Abby, Kane, Lincoln, Octavia, all of Skaikru). Its just such a bizarre story choice to try to make such an ugly arc for him in just a tiny number of episodes.

[Lady Calypso]

God, this Bellamy arc is irritating as hell. Oh boo hoo, your sister won't look at you because you massacred 300+ Grounders with no remorse, and inadvertently got Lincoln killed by choosing Pike's side. I'm giving Clarke a minor pass on her not being angry at Bellamy because she's working through her own guilt and thinks their situations are the same. It's still irritating to see Clarke be so cool with Bellamy and still think they're co-leaders. No, Clarke. You genuinely made your choices because you thought it would help people. Bellamy made his choices out of fear and still hasn't owned up to them. I am super glad Octavia's pissed at him. Every episode she doesn't forgive him gives me hope that this will not be handwaved. I assume Bellamy will eventually come to the conclusion that he was wrong....but nah, it's almost too late for me to care. 

I guess I do appreciate that they are making Bellamy unlikable, and I think we're not meant to be on his side, so there is that. Not a lot of show allow for one of their main characters to be vastly hated throughout a whole season. 

So...they literally crucify Kane. Oh, great. More torture porn for characters this season. Basically, they could have just pointed the gun at Abby the moment Kane stepped through into Polis and their problem would have been solved immediately. 

Impressive flashbacks; they got all of their outward appearances right. I forgot how different each of them look now, especially Kane and Bellamy. I almost forgot about Bellamy's stupid ass hair in the pilot before they changed it for episode 2. 

I'm super glad Indra got some of her revenge in for what Pike did to her army. I wish she could have gone further, but I guess we're stuck with Pike for a while. It is nice to see that even in flashbacks, before the series started, he was still a ruthless dick. I guess it had to have come from somewhere if he is willing to just beat up kids to try to teach them a lesson. 

Oh, Luna. You immediately won me over by saying "Nah" to the Flame. I guess what Clarke stuffed inside of Emerson last episode was another pseudo-Flame, and not actually Lexa as I mistakenly thought. That makes more sense. Also, a side note. As much as I appreciate that they're not treating Lexa/Clarke's romance as out of the ordinary....I just want to know if any of them know about Clarke/Lexa, or if they have an inkling. It's one thing to treat it like it's no big deal. It's another to ignore it completely. The only person aware of it is Murphy. It would be like if nobody knew about Bellamy and Gina. It's just an odd choice. 

[Taryn74]

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I guess what Clarke stuffed inside of Emerson last episode was another pseudo-Flame, and not actually Lexa as I mistakenly thought.

No, Clarke put the real Flame in Emerson, she just removed it after he was dead.