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S05.E19: Sisters


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Now that Hades and Zelena are reunited, Hades tells Zelena that he wants a future with her outside of the Underworld. All she needs to do is heal his heart with True Love’s Kiss so they can leave the Underworld and trap the heroes there for eternity. When Regina overhears of this plan, she enlists Cora’s help to find a way to separate Zelena from Hades. However, Cora reveals a family secret that could change Regina and Zelena’s lives forever. Meanwhile, David finally meets James, only to realize that his twin is determined to seek revenge on him for stealing the life he could have had

 

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Son of a bitch!   This show.

 

I knew it.  I knew the show would decide to let Cora go into the light.

 

For a second, I thought maybe they’d send her to hell after all.  I thought that would prove that there was some hope for the skewed morality of this show.  But not, of course not.

Edited by ParadoxLost
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Did the show just present the idea that Regina reformed Robin?  What?  Robin was the “villain” in that scenario?  I know the writers work in a sort of bizarro world, but, um, huh?

 

And, no, your sad face doesn’t make us feel bad for you, Rumple, and Belle did it to herself. 

 

No,  not even Barbara Hershey, as splendid as she usually is, could make those last “we’re family, let’s hold hands” scenes with Regina, Zelena, and Cora less than yucksome.  It was awfully treacly for characters who are usually pretty full of snotty zingers and one-liners.  After all, it’s hard to take a line like “we never even got to say hello” seriously when one character abandoned the other in the woods to die as an infant.  Of course she gets to "Go into the light."    Of course she does.

 

This was not the worst episode they’ve delivered so far, but, well, can we have a little less Zelena for a while?  She’s enjoyable in little spurts, but not massive doses. 

 

 

Lots of the Cruella/James/David subplot was rather fun, though.

 

Please, please, please let Hades be playing Zelena.  Please.

  • Love 7
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I thought this was a very good episode, good mix of character moments and plot moving along.  

 

Awwwww, Hades took Zelena on a picnic date, how adorable…and then Zelena came home to an interrogation by her sister.  Regina’s attitude puzzled me; she was a villain and then found love; why can’t Zelena and Hades do the same? Perhaps if Hades embraced love he would turn toward good instead of evil.  After all, that is what happened to Regina.  I’m glad Regina finally came to this conclusion in the end.

 

It was great seeing Cora/Barbara Hershey again.  Cora’s scenes with Zelena and Regina was very moving. 

 

Ever since the Underworld arc began I’ve been looking forward to a showdown between David and James.  Its about time Josh Dallas had something more to do than standing around looking stalwart.  Unfortunately Emma’s bullshit detector was once again on the fritz until it was too late.  And of course James ends up a lost soul.  I do hope they eventually rescue all those lost souls swimming around.

 

Edited to add: I forgot to say I continue to adore Cruella.  I want more Cruella!

 

Robin plus baby wandering around the woods prompts so many questions.  How did he feed the baby? Did they live in a shelter made of grass and pine cones?  Where did he get the baby carrier? 

 

I thought the younger Regina and Zelena were perfectly cast.

Edited by Worsel
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I don't recall who it was on the spoiler page who predicted that Cora wiped the girls' memories of knowing each other as children, but I want to congratulate you. Good job!

Also, excellent job predicting the witchnapping.

While the brother fight was good in concept, the execution was lacking. The stunt doubles so clearly missed each other on the punches. Alas, another one falls into the green goo of tortured souls to be 'rescued' in a future episode.

As for Cora's crossing over; I know this season is about hope, but that is total CRAP.

No blue flame hair again. Hurray!

  • Love 1
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I actually am completely on board with Regina's redemption at this point.  I actually like the Regina and Zelelna reconciliation.  But I think that they should have gone with Cora manipulating a reconciliation so she could move on to a good place and have her burn because you can't fool the fire.

 

Show of hands, who stupidly thought Cora's comment about when she died in Storybrooke would be about Snow.

 

Oh, and now that I'm on board with Regina's redemption it means she is going to go full on Evil Queen pretty soon.  Every time I accept the characterization of Regina they show me, she murders a village.

Edited by ParadoxLost
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I think that whole lets wipe someones memories might come in hand at the end of the season. That's all I got from the episode because I was literally waiting for GoT and Firebird promo to come tbh. lol

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"Why is everything in the woods with you people" - I love you Cruella. LOVE.

I'm sorry, the Mills family Kumbaya session had me rolling my eyes. Cora sashaying to the light? Really? Bye.

I'm kinda sad James is a lost soul now, mainly because he is leaving behind my gurl Cruella. But the James playing David stuff was kinda amusing.

Fairy godmother Hook? Haha.

Oh look, Robin and green bean made an appearance in the woods. 

 

I need the next episode. NEED IT. 

  • Love 6
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So, that little fake out with Cora, was I supposed to be all "oh, no, don't send her to hell!!!!" and then feel all swept up with warm fuzzies when she got to go to heaven because, I had the opposite reaction. I was pleasantly surprised that they were actually going to send an unrepentant evildoer to hell and then heartbroken that she got to go to heaven. What, exactly, is the point of doing good? All you have to do is say you are sorry, do one selfishly good deed and poof, you go to heaven. The fuck, show?

 

The James/David stuff felt a bit tacked on. What was the point? Is the only way they will get out of Underbrooke if each of the heroes condemns some other soul to eternal torment? Why did Zelena and Regina waste their chance? They could have jointly shoved their mother in there. At least she deserved it unlike Mila and Gaston.

 

I really need this underworld story to end while I can handle still watching the show. Time is running out.

  • Love 9
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I don't see the issue of Cora going into the light. I thought it was well done, since you could see some light materializing as she hugged Regina and Zelena goodbye, and then as the sisters held hands. It was the love that all three shared for each other that did it, Cora didn't automatically get in, she would have burned had it not been for the reconciliation.

Also, unlike Milah, Gaston and Em, I have zero sympathy for James. The man's a sociopath, he even confirmed that it wasn't what David got from his mother than he envied him for, it was him getting his name, title, glory and privelages after he died. Geez, what a spoiled brat!

Please, please, please let Hades be playing Zelena. Please.

The man was doing a dance preparing for his date. No way he's playing her, sorry.

Pan, yes! Things are about to get green

Robbie Kay and his one line gave me the freaking chills, man. It also kind of made me laugh, since even the show itself is acknowledging who the superior Big Bad of Season 3 was. Edited by Mathius
  • Love 9
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I think that whole lets wipe someones memories might come in hand at the end of the season. That's all I got from the episode because I was literally waiting for GoT and Firebird promo to come tbh. lol

 

Yeah, an unused vial of memory wipe is a little anvily.

 

The other thing that I find odd is that they aren't sending anyone but random extras to the 'bad' place.  Instead they are tossing them into the River of Eternal torment.  They'll definitely free them all before they leave the Underworld; otherwise a few would be tossed into the 'bad' place because they won't change.  I'm starting to think a hero is going to get tossed in there and it will spur them to figure out how to free those souls.

 

At least David responded to throwing someone into the River in a more sympathetic way than Belle.

 

Rumple's speech to Belle was kind of interesting.  It seemed he was worried about saving the baby.  I don't think he mentioned saving Belle at all.  Just that she'd be disappointed in his methods to save the baby. 

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How adorable was Hook being worried for Baby Green? lol

 

I to have zero sympathy for James. He didn't care that he was about to throw his niece in the land of lost souls, why should I care that he smugly thought he'd be able to beat the heroes and ended up in the water himself. I will say I love when Josh gets to smile.

  • Love 5
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I thought the episode was moving. I liked the show of humility by the Mills women at the end, and that they forgave each other. The scene between Hook and Cora was brief, but marvelous.

I really am tired of the memory wiping though. These characters have got to be so screwed up by now.

I still think Hades is playing Zelena, but I don't know if the show will go there. I mean, they redeemed Cora, why not Hades? I dunno, it's hard for me to buy that it's genuine for him at this point.

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Milah, Gaston, James in the river of lost souls.

 

Cora goes into the light.

 

Henry Sr will never rid of her.

 

I love how in an episode where Robin's kid gets kidnapped, he is shown a total of 15 seconds, and says half a line.

Edited by YaddaYadda
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I to have zero sympathy for James. He didn't care that he was about to throw his niece in the land of lost souls, why should I care that he smugly thought he'd be able to beat the heroes and ended up in the water himself. 

True.

 

The circumstances are just different enough that David comes off far more sympathetically than Belle does--James was more of a threat and rather an evil jerk, plus David wasn't "Well, spit.  So, why doesn't this work for the deal I rejected?  How unfair is that?"  

Edited by Mari
  • Love 9
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The scene between Hook and Cora was brief, but marvelous.

Yes, I loved that, especially a version of the S2 Hook theme playing. Good times.

What, exactly, is the point of doing good? All you have to do is say you are sorry, do one selfishly good deed and poof, you go to heaven. The fuck, show?

Wait, so doing good needs to be rewarded to "have a point"?

And there are belief systems in which love in one's heart and love toward that person from others can redeem them for Heaven, I think that is what they're going for. Nothing Cora DID per se got her into Heaven, it was the love in her heart and in her daughters' hearts that did it.

Edited by Mathius
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Mockingbird, on 24 Apr 2016 - 9:25 PM, said:

If this show allows frickin' CORA to cross over into the light while leaving Milah and Auntie Em to remain in the river of lost souls, I'm going to enact my own dark curse. 

 

I think in this case it's not so much about "allowing them to" but more about the people who enable someone like Cora to cross into the light and condemn others to the River of Lost Souls.

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Did anyone actually go to the bad place in this arc? It seems everyone gets redeemed, except those thrown in the river. Maybe it doesn't actually exist then, because if Cora doesn't deserve it, no one does.

  • Love 1
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Did anyone actually go to the bad place in this arc? It seems everyone gets redeemed, except those thrown in the river. Maybe it doesn't actually exist then, because if Cora doesn't deserve it, no one does.

 

Cora tossed the villager that was willing to betray Snow to Regina in a flashback into the bad place.

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Okay, it was very touching and everything, but Cora moved to heaven becasue... ?? Seriously, Show? Sigh...

 

Overall, I quite liked the episode. The flashback was interesting, but how convenient that the Rv. Lethe bubbled up near Cora's house.

 

I was trying hard not to yawn whenever Rumple was on-screen. 

 

Aww... Hades is such a romantic at heart. Still don't trust him, though.

 

The B-plot with Cruella and James was fun. I keep saying these geniuses need to have secret handshakes to verify identity. After being Cora'd, Zelena'd, and Rumple'd, you would think they'd learn. When James and David started fighting, I knew the former was going to end up in the River. Ugh... I wish we got more scenes with James and David. 

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I think in this case it's not so much about "allowing them to" but more about the people who enable someone like Cora to cross into the light and condemn others to the River of Lost Souls.

True, it's pretty much saying that it isn't just the person who crosses over or gets condemned that matters, it's the people around them. Regina, Snow, Hook, Zelena...they helped Henry, Herc and Meg, Liam and the other men, and Cora to cross into Heaven, while Rumple, Belle, Hades and David condemned Milah, Gaston, Em, and James to the River of Lost Souls, although in the last case it was justified since James was trying to do the same to David and his family.

 

Other than Black Tooth or whatever that dude's name was, Hell must be pretty empty.

Captain Silver went there too, Hades blew him over the edge.

 

Cora was the evilest evil to ever evil.

"Pan: Well, I'm much worse."

Edited by Mathius
  • Love 3
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Zzzzzzzzzz

 

I was so bored.

 

I liked David vs. James. Annoyed we didn't get more of them.

 

Regina/Zelena in flashback did not work. The globs of makeup were especially annoying. I know what the writers were going for, but again, they used a heavy hand instead of letting characters develop naturally.

 

I will stop there. I get tired of reading my own bitching lol. Hope the next one is better.

 

 

  • Love 6
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I actually don't think going into the light has anything to do with whether you are a good person or not.  This is purgatory right?  The person or persons involved just have to let go of their unfinished business to move on from underbrooke.  The way they have portrayed it is kind of confusing tho.  I didn't think Liam deserved to go into the light either.  But honestly, whatever to Cora going into the light.  I don't expect anything different from this show at this point.

 

They actually made me care about Zelena and Zelena and Regina as sisters.  Their separation as children was quite sad, they were quite cute together throwing imaginary fireballs at each other.  Of course when Zelena is trying to turn over a new leaf Rumple comes along and ruins it.  He's the worst. 

 

I like Charming having some screen time.  Even if it's just to show that someone feels remorse about dooming someone to eternal torment.

Edited by blugirlami21
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I was mostly bored and checking the clock the entire hour. I actually thought Zelena/Bex's acting was the MVP of the episode, but everything else was so slow moving.

 

And the most amount of screen time Emma and Charming spend together all season isn't even between Emma and Charming, it's between Emma and freaking James. Of course.

 

Did the show just present the idea that Regina reformed Robin?  What?  Robin was the “villain” in that scenario?  I know the writers work in a sort of bizarro world, but, um, huh?

 

Thank. You. This is exactly what I was going to complain about. How in the hell has the Regina Exception Clause expanded to the point where the writers think Robin is the villain of Outlaw Queen?! I'm pretty sure he was the one who helped reform Regina. And their example didn't even work because Marian was the one who supposedly redeemed Robin during his bad thieving days, not Regina. (Not like this show will ever give Robin enough screen time to explain why his thieving was so bad.) But apparently stealing one horse is much more villainous than murdering entire villages and casting Dark Curses. Whatever, REC. 

 

So, that little fake out with Cora, was I supposed to be all "oh, no, don't send her to hell!!!!" and then feel all swept up with warm fuzzies when she got to go to heaven because, I had the opposite reaction.

 

Heh, me too. When I saw the fire engulfing Cora, I was like, "Wow, I didn't know the show had it in them! That's refreshingly...oh wait. Never mind. There's the light." I think a much more fitting ending for Cora would have been to leave it open-ended about where she ended up and ultimately let the viewer decide which fate she deserved.

Edited by Curio
  • Love 9
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I actually don't think going into the light has anything to do with whether you are a good person or not.  This is purgatory right?  The person or persons involved just have to let go of their unfinished business to move on from underbrooke.

 

I've got to disagree.  The fire definitely went to consume Cora and then sensed her sincerity over her regret for separating Zelena and Regina and the light came.  You can definitely end up in a good or bad place.

  • Love 3
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But apparently stealing one horse is much more villainous than murdering entire villages and casting Dark Curses.

Regina was just being "bold and audacious" while Robin was evil enough to steal from Rumple. He's lucky Regina gave him a second chance to reform.

 

We learned tonight that slaughtering an entire village doesn't preclude you from going to heaven. Tossing nannies out a clock tower doesn't count either - even if you've already been given what you asked for. Heck, even if you are in the underworld and send a henchperson to a fiery death to show your daughter what can happen, you are still good to go for heaven.

 

Meanwhile, if you ever sought revenge on somebody who killed you or your entire village or broke-up with one of our woobies, it's eternal torment in the River of Lost Souls for you. If you ever spied on one of woobies, it is off to the fiery pit of hell for you.

 

Is that Sir Percival I saw floating around with the other lost souls?

  • Love 10
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I find judging this episode hard. There many aspects I enjoyed (I'm a Regina/Cora/Zelena fan through and through), but there were many WTF moments. 

 

The flashback would have been interesting in theory. However, it was more like a cop-out to avoid writing any organic sisterhood for Regina and Zelena. Instead of showing them growing closer together, they got hit with a retcon memory that made everything better instantly. And was it me, or were they paralleling Anna and Elsa? The young actors were great, but to me it was all very much for the OMG factor. Pretty convenient that a river from the Underworld had a spring near Cora's estate. 

 

David/James stuff was bland. Another person got added to the Charmings' list of who they killed in self-defense. First Cora, then Cruella, and now James. Not that I judge David for doing it, but it's this show. David probably has a dark spot on his heart now he can't remove without resurrecting his brother. Also, how the heck did he break out of the jail cell? Couldn't Hook have just rescued him? Even though it was "his own jail cell", I don't buy it. I'm kind of hoping he went into the water and James is actually the survivor.

 

"Why do you people always have to meet in the woods?" You're so awesome, Cruella. I'm sad your boyfriend got tossed into eternal torment.

 

 

Robbie Kay and his one line gave me the freaking chills, man. It also kind of made me laugh, since even the show itself is acknowledging who the superior Big Bad of Season 3 was.

 

Oh, I know. Pan meeting Zelena was the best. It's Pan Never Fails vs. Wicked Always Wins.

 

 

Cora was the evilest evil to ever evil. So who deserves hell more? Ava?

Cora going to the light was dumb. Even though she probably spent a lot of time humbling herself, they should have left her fate ambiguous. Maybe leave her in the Underworld or something. At this point, there doesn't seem to be any moral reasoning for who goes to Olympus or into the fire. I liked her closure with her daughters, but couldn't she have stuck around to help stop Hades? She is arguably more powerful than both of them.

 

Did Cora not have any unfinished business with all the people she ripped hearts from? Is separating two sisters who barely knew each other really the one thing that was holding her back?

 

 

I've got to disagree.  The fire definitely went to consume Cora and then sensed her sincerity over her regret for separating Zelena and Regina and the light came.  You can definitely end up in a good or bad place.

IIRC, it did the same thing to Henry Sr. Her moral standing was much iffier than his.

Edited by KingOfHearts
  • Love 2
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I was not in a good for this episode I mostly watched like it was a chore.

So I still liked Cruella but I have a Zelena fatigue!

I loved that Josh D. shine tonight.

Honestly Cora going directly to the better place!!

Really ! !

The morality of this show is so weird !!

At the end I was just waiting for the firebird promo.

And what promo!!

Usual I do not look at the sneak peak but it been so long since I was really exciting for a episode. ..

It will be hard not to look at every tiny promo for next week.

I already looked the promo almost 10 times

  • Love 1
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I will confess that I shed some tears when Regina and Zelena got their memories back, but then I had a rough day and needed a good cry, and I just needed a proper trigger to set it off. A Hallmark commercial would have worked, as well.

 

Young Zelena was perfectly cast, but I'm not sure about young Regina. It may be that I'm used to seeing her as young Rebecca on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, and her playing with makeup with Zelena only made me think of that more, so I was seeing Rebecca rather than Regina.

 

I doubt they have any kind of worldview or theology planned here, and it's all down to the plot who gets to move on, but to a large extent it looks like they're going with a warped form of Christian theology, in which it's not your past sins that matter so much as your repentance and acceptance of grace. However, the Lost Souls don't really fit with that, as Milah, at least, seemed to have repented, and Auntie Em didn't seem to have anything to repent. So I hope they manage to free those people from the river. So it does seem to come down to what reaction they want the surviving characters to have.

  • Love 5
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I will confess that I shed some tears when Regina and Zelena got their memories back, but then I had a rough day and needed a good cry, and I just needed a proper trigger to set it off. A Hallmark commercial would have worked, as well.

I'm happy for Regina and Zelena. They need each other. I'm happy Zelena got to meet her mother as well. Barbara Hershey totally sold it.

Edited by KingOfHearts
  • Love 4
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Auntie Em goes into the River of Lost Souls and Cora goes to Heaven?!? Fuck off, Once.

I wonder if Robert Carlyle now hates his character as much as I do because tonight in both his scenes he was mumbling his dialogue through clenched teeth.

All that said, Cruella continues to be made of win. I'll be disapointed if she doesnt come back to Cruella, but even moreso if she comes back and then gets redeemed.

  • Love 4
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I really liked seeing Cora interacting with Zelena and bringing her and Regina together in the present; that's the kind of stuff they should be mining in this arc -- bringing together characters who never got to interact before.  Rebecca Mader was killing it in those scenes, and it's getting easier to buy a redeemed Regina.  The flashback was ... kinda cute but kinda over the top.  I really couldn't take the baby Regina dramatizing with that makeup smudged all over.

 

Cora going to the light though?  SMH.

 

I feel like they could've done more with James.  I liked that he was such a spoiled brat that he was jealous for such a petty reason.

 

I am soooo ready for more Pan!

  • Love 3
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Please, please, please let Hades be playing Zelena. Please.

The man was doing a dance preparing for his date. No way he's playing her, sorry.

Oh, I laughed at this!  I thought the first quote meant Hades "was pretending to be" Zelena, like she did with Ariel, not how she then went and played Hook.

 

The comments are the best thing about this show!

Edited by elle
  • Love 2
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It was totally emotional when young Zelena and Regina were separated. I didn't buy the present scenes as much though. 

 

Cora seemed to repent, but only about  what he did to her daughters. What about all those other people she murdered? I hope she was sorry too! It could've been mentioned. Again, this show seems to give hope...hope to bad people who shed a tear or two. 

 

James and David fighting right next to the River of Lost Souls. What a surprising conclusion when James fell over the edge! -__- 

 

I liked the ending with Pan! And next week looks good. It seems the mid-season dull is over! 

  • Love 3
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This is the second week in a row where a flashback showing a relationship that formed over a few hours significantly impacted the present day. Last week, Ruby and Dorothy spent a few precious hours together in the flashback, but that was enough to solidify them as True Love. This week, Young Zelena and Young Regina spent a few precious hours together in the flashback, but that was enough to overcome years and seasons' worth of bad blood between the two sisters. I guess this show really likes the quick and easy fixes.

  • Love 10
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The flashback would have been interesting in theory. However, it was more like a cop-out to avoid writing any organic sisterhood for Regina and Zelena. Instead of showing them growing closer together, they got hit with a retcon memory that made everything better instantly. 

 

Agree. It was over the top and way too fast. Everything is resolved with a hug in this Show.

I will confess that I shed some tears when Regina and Zelena got their memories back, but then I had a rough day and needed a good cry, and I just needed a proper trigger to set it off. 

 

It was quite moving. I got a bit teary too. :-p

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This week, Young Zelena and Young Regina spent a few precious hours together in the flashback, but that was enough to overcome years and seasons' worth of bad blood between the two sisters. I guess this show really likes the quick and easy fixes.

Yeah, that was one thing that kind of bothered me. I'm not sure I entirely buy the idea that remembering spending a day or so playing together as kids would hit a huge reset button on their relationship and make them really start acting like sisters. Based on Zelena's character and history, wouldn't it have set off her jealousy to remember the luxury Regina grew up with and the knowledge that Cora banished her from it and sent her back to the hut with the adoptive father who loathed her? Cora rejected her twice. It might have made Zelena feel better toward Regina that Regina had once accepted her enthusiastically as a sister, but I don't know that learning that Cora had rejected her, brought her back just to save her second daughter, and then rejected her again would really have cured all of Zelena's issues.

  • Love 8
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So Emma has magical powers to save her father but not to save a BABY?

Emma had the anti-magic cuff around her wrist that James put there while they were in the woods.

 

I think Hook removed it from her since his hook was used earlier to remove Cora's cuff.

  • Love 1
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I doubt they have any kind of worldview or theology planned here, and it's all down to the plot who gets to move on, but to a large extent it looks like they're going with a warped form of Christian theology, in which it's not your past sins that matter so much as your repentance and acceptance of grace.

I would call it low or twisted standards instead of grace. Cora wasn't forgiven or gifted with salvation. The requirement was completing unfinished business, which is identified arbitrarily by the Church of A&E. Black Tooth probably tripped a kid and didn't make amends before he attempted to cross the bridge. Apparently you have all the time in the world to finish your business in Purgatory AKA the Underworld, but once you attempt to cross into Olympus, you either pass or fail. All the other horrible things Cora went unnoticed because they were not her selected business.

 

That's my theological analysis of a show with breast crickets and crypt sex.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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