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S05.E19: Sisters

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I need to rewatch the episode. But I didn't get the impression that they were saying Regina had redeemed Robin. 

 

I would agree with you if the conversation had only included this dialogue...

Regina: I know you don't believe me, Zelena, but I am trying to do what's best for you.

Zelena: And how do you know that isn't being with Hades?

Regina: Because he's a villain!

Zelena: Yeah, but he doesn't always have to be. Like with you and Robin.

 

If they had stopped the conversation right there, that would have been perfect because the audience would assume Zelena was talking about how Robin helped redeem Regina. But they went on to include this part...

Zelena: You two helped each other. He used to be a bloody thief!

Regina: Yes, who stole from the rich to give to the poor. You want to redeem the God of Death.

 

By adding the second part of the dialogue, the writers seem to be implying that Robin was just as much of a villain as Regina and that Regina had a hand in redeeming him, albeit not as much as Zelena would have to redeem Hades. By not using Regina as the example of a villain being redeemed in Outlaw Queen's situation, the writers are whitewashing her past actions again by erasing her history. The writers could have easily had Zelena call Regina out and remind her that she also used to be a villain who was redeemed by Robin, so why shouldn't she give Hades a chance? But the writers didn't do that and instead brought up Robin's past as a thief. It also doesn't help that Regina comes off as holier-than-thou again when she's yelling at Zelena for dating a villain when she was one of the worst villains on the show. I don't know if it's the writers setting Regina up for a fall or if it's just the Regina Exception Clause where the writers don't realize how hypocritical Regina sounds in these sisterly conversations.

Edited by Curio
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It's okay, I'm sure he apologized at the last second and is partying in heaven with Cora.

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We now have confirmation that Zelena's father was physically abusive. Cora saw it and returned her to him. That's disgusting.

It's also possible that the way she returned Zelena to Oz would cause him to treat Zelena even more poorly than before. Cora magicked him still, without memory wiping him about Zelena moving the logs, and then returned Zelena after a noticible amount of time passed. Did Cora fix that, or did Zelena take the blame?

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What I now get from the underworld is that it is just a holding cell for baddies to bide their time until they are able to find one selfless(ish) thing they can do to get their pass to the light and that the good people that are down there are there to support the baddies in their endevour because good must suffer in order for evil to come around to being good one time which is enough to get you up those glowing stairs.

 

Cora didn't actually do something good. All she did was undo one of the many shit thing she did to her two daughters, both of whom are evil pretty much because of her and her actions towards them. Mother of the Year!

 

So, according to OuaT, if I kill hundreds of people fairly arbitrarily, abandon one child, psychologically torment another, mind rape them both, rip people's hearts out because I'm a collector, all I have to do is take back just one of those things and my soul is clean?

 

Yeah, day later and I'm still pissed about this.

 

In happier news, I agree with those who say Cruella rocks! Never change. I don't want her redeemed or punished. I want her just the way she is, snarky, a little dangerous (has she killed anyone? I can't remember what her body count is, though a high body count seems to be a badge of honor on this show) and totally enjoying her evil side. I like my villains to embrace their dark side, not be all emo about it.

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Zelena: You two helped each other. He used to be a bloody thief!

Regina: Yes, who stole from the rich to give to the poor. You want to redeem the God of Death.

By adding the second part of the dialogue, the writers seem to be implying that Robin was just as much of a villain as Regina and that Regina had a hand in redeeming him, albeit not as much as Zelena would have to redeem Hades. By not using Regina as the example of a villain being redeemed in Outlaw Queen's situation, the writers are whitewashing her past actions again by erasing her history. The writers could have easily had Zelena call Regina out and remind her that she also used to be a villain who was redeemed by Robin, so why shouldn't she give Hades a chance? But the writers didn't do that and instead brought up Robin's past as a thief. It also doesn't help that Regina comes off as holier-than-thou again when she's yelling at Zelena for dating a villain when she was one of the worst villains on the show. I don't know if it's the writers setting Regina up for a fall or if it's just the Regina Exception Clause where the writers don't realize how hypocritical Regina sounds in these sisterly conversations.

I didn't take it that way - I interpreted as a "One of These Things is Not Like the Other" so stealing from the rich to give to the poor was technically a crime, but morally not.  Hades being Hades doesn't compare.

 

But who knows what he intention of these writers are/is?

 

Even a brief second of Robbie Kay on my screen and he radiates villainy so much better than anyone else.

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Even a brief second of Robbie Kay on my screen and he radiates villainy so much better than anyone else.

I loved, loved, loved Zelena's reaction when he said they say you're wicked, but I'm worse. She was scared.

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In happier news, I agree with those who say Cruella rocks! Never change. I don't want her redeemed or punished. I want her just the way she is, snarky, a little dangerous (has she killed anyone? I can't remember what her body count is, though a high body count seems to be a badge of honor on this show) and totally enjoying her evil side. I like my villains to embrace their dark side, not be all emo about it.

 

Cruella's  body count is pretty low from what I recall, just her mother's husbands correct? And how many were there, maybe 3? I also was surprised Cora moved on. I mean it was pretty obvious that the show wouldn't have that touching moment with her daughters and then have her end up in the worse place, but I'm not certain she redeemed herself enough. Speaking of Cora was anyone else pleasantly surprised by the hook and cora reunion? I didnt realize I needed that until it happened.  One of my favorite parts of the episode. Overall the episode was okay. It wasn't terrible and if it had been earlier in the season I may have enjoyed it more, but I feel like the underworld arc is dragging on now with no real progress. I can't wait for next week's though.

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I didn't take it that way - I interpreted as a "One of These Things is Not Like the Other" so stealing from the rich to give to the poor was technically a crime, but morally not.  Hades being Hades doesn't compare.

 

That was probably the writers' intent, but the unintended result comes from not mentioning Regina's time as a villain in that conversation. If you line up Regina, Hades, and Robin in a row and decide to have a discussion about comparing two villains from that group, why would you choose Robin and Hades?

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Cruella's body count is pretty low from what I recall, just her mother's husbands correct? And how many were there, maybe 3?

 

Um, she also killed her mother.  Horrifically.  By having dogs rip her apart.  And then she killed the dogs too.

 

I love Cruella as well, but let's not sugercoat what a monstrous homicidal psychopath she is.

 

but I feel like the underworld arc is dragging on now with no real progress.

 

There was a lot of progress in this one: the whole thing with Zelena that's been going on since "Our Decay" was finally resolved, the Cora and James plot threads were wrapped up, and Rumple has brought Pan into play and that has directly caused the climax of the arc to happen.  Much more happened here than in the previous two episodes, in any case.

 

It's also possible that the way she returned Zelena to Oz would cause him to treat Zelena even more poorly than before. Cora magicked him still, without memory wiping him about Zelena moving the logs, and then returned Zelena after a noticible amount of time passed. Did Cora fix that, or did Zelena take the blame?

 

 

Actually, since he only had his outburst revealing she wasn't his daughter when totally drunk, I take it as the reverse: he probably treated her better for a while because he thought she froze him magically and was now scared of her and what she might do to him.  Only when drunk did he lose his fear (he even said "Why do you think I took to drinking?")

Edited by Mathius

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Um, she also killed her mother.  Horrifically.  By having dogs rip her apart.  And then she killed the dogs too.

 

I love Cruella as well, but let's not sugercoat what a monstrous homicidal psychopath she is.

 

No I agree. She is definitely a psychopath and would have killed many more if the author didn't take away her ability to kill. I just meant it's pretty low compared to Regina and Rumple. Also, I completely forgot about her own Mother - I should probably rewatch 4B. I didn't care for that Arc much, but maybe I will like it better on a rewatch, especially compared to Season 5 so far. 

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Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna lose Cruella either, but "low body count" shouldn't be an excuse used.  Let's just be totally upfront and honest about our reason for wanting her to stay: she's entertaining as Hell (pun intended).

Edited by Mathius
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Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna lose Cruella either, but "low body count" shouldn't be an excuse used.  Let's just be totally upfront and honest about our reason for wanting her to stay: she's entertaining as Hell (pun intended).

 

Haha yes I agree. I wasn't saying that was THE or even A reason for her to stay. any murder is still murder and the fact that she didn't destroy an entire village doesn't mean she more redeemable or anything. It's just funny that compared to other villains and former-villains her body count is low, despite being truly messed up and evil. I think that's why I like her and peter pan though because they are apologetically crazy. I had high hope for Hades and he was fun in the beginning, but he isn't a top villain for me.

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Other random thoughts from this episode.. those anti-magic cuffs seem to pop up everywhere - how did they even end up in the underworld? In my head I want to believe Hades made them for Peter Pan and also gave him the portrait of Henry during some deal they made. I know PP said he created them, but if they were made for him it wouldn't be too much of a stretch and would also explain why there are more of them floating around underbrook. OR perhaps PP made more of the cuffs for Hades in exchange for a cushy underworld life?

 

Oh and I know others have pointed this out already, but that Hook and Cora reunion was amazing. I didn't realize I needed it until it happened. Probably my favorite part of the episode.

Edited by Aglepta

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Oh and I know others have pointed this out already, but that Hook and Cora reunion was amazing. I didn't realize I needed it until it happened. Probably my favorite part of the episode.

 

It would have been so much better if Cora could have found out that Hook and Emma are now in love. I consider Cora the first Captain Swan shipper. "You chose her." :)

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It would have been so much better if Cora could have found out that Hook and Emma are now in love. I consider Cora the first Captain Swan shipper. "You chose her." :)

 

YES! I didn't about it before, but Cora and Zelena are totally CS shippers (like mother like daughter?) I can see them swapping stories now of how their actions have encouraged CS to happen.

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When I watch Cora going into the light, it was a major facepalm moment. TS,TW. But after thinking about it, it makes sense within the context of the episode. Cora got her crap together and apologized to her daughters. That was the focus, which is why it was her unfinished business. It's very screwy morality, but it's setup well within the 42 minutes and it sent the character off in a very satisfying fashion.

 

While I wish A&E weren't dictating who was going to heaven or hell based on the arbitrary needs of their plot, I don't think emotions over logic is always bad in storytelling. (If I did, I would have stopped watching this show a long time ago.) Some instances can be passable if they're delivered in a satisfying way. The stupidity of Once's writing is almost always on display because it's not engaging enough to immerse you. You can always see the puppeteers pulling the strings and the man behind the curtain. But in this episode, I did feel emotionally engrossed in what the Mills family was going through. It had a nice conclusion.

Edited by KingOfHearts

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Barbara Hershey is so good as Cora - she really sold Cora's regret at how she treated Zelena and Regina - that being said I don't think she's done enough to move onto a happier place.

 

Also I thought it was a bit rich Rumple blaming Zelena for Belle taking the the sleeping curse - Belle only took it coz she wanted to get away from Rumple, it's the same as when Rumple blamed the Blue Fairy for giving Bae the magic bean and he's hated her ever since.  Also I didn't think it was possible for Dark One Rumple to use light magic - as the Dark One I assume he ONLY has dark magic.  I'm guessing he could use his magic to help people if he wanted to but every time he uses magic he's using his dark one powers so it'll always be dark magic…..

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I actually really liked Cora's ending and I know I will be in the minority but my feelings on the show is forgiveness is its own reward. Sometimes all it takes to find peace is to forgive the one who hurt you the most and to accept their forgiveness.

 

I have noticed that some of the people who are stuck are the ones who can do neither.

 

I actually like that it's never too late for people to repent - otherwise, there is little reason to change one's way. If you are going to the bad place based on your past, then it takes away incentive for changing.

 

The problem is that Cora got a bazillion chances to repent. She never took them and doubled down on evilness. If at any point previously, she had been forced across that bridge, she would be very toasty.

 

So, it is somewhat arbitrary who deserves to be in the Lost Souls river/bad place and who gets to be in heaven. The show wants me to think that James deserves to be in the river of eternal torment, but if he'd had as many chances as Cora, he might too have gone to heaven. Why are his chances cut short and why am I supposed to think it is deserved? Sure, he was an unrepentant jackass, but so was Cora half-way through the episode. She was all for stealing some more memories from the daughter she has abused all her life. She never got the chance to say "Hello" to Zelena? No, she never took the opportunity to do so. Getting to Oz was easy for her and she knew exactly where Zelena was (and what her father was doing to her).

 

If the show was pitched to make me mourn for Blacktooth, Captain Silver, Gaston and James losing their opportunity to save themselves, it would be one thing. But it seems to be telling me that those guys all deserved their fates.  Why didn't they get more chances like Cora? If falling into the river/fire just meant sending you to a new type of Underbrooke to try again, then I would be okay with it. But as far as we know,  it doesn't. It means eternal torment.

 

It's all just so arbitrary, so I can't feel glad some bad characters get punished while worse characters get sent to heaven. All I'm getting is that Cora is lucky and James is not.

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I don't think we can compare people who are in the lost river of souls to people who have moved on. The way I see it, "God", or whoever, decides who gets to move on to "heaven". I got the impression that most people in the river were put there by Hades, or by other people in the underworld. It's not that those people don't deserve to move on, they just had the misfortune of being thrown into the river. It's pretty ridiculous to think that anyone can just push another person into the water, and they're pretty much damned for all of eternity. I have no doubt though that all those people will be freed by the nevengers.

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I don't think we can compare people who are in the lost river of souls to people who have moved on. The way I see it, "God", or whoever, decides who gets to move on to "heaven". I got the impression that most people in the river were put there by Hades, or by other people in the underworld. It's not that those people don't deserve to move on, they just had the misfortune of being thrown into the river. It's pretty ridiculous to think that anyone can just push another person into the water, and they're pretty much damned for all of eternity. I have no doubt though that all those people will be freed by the nevengers.

 

YES.  Why are people up in arms about people getting thrown in the river "deserving" it or not?  It's not like the Heaven-Hell passageway, there's nothing supernatural about winding up in the river and morality is a non-issue with it: people wind in the river because some asshole puts them there (or in James' case, because he was being an asshole and forced the other person to put him there.)  And given how the river keeps coming up, I too think they'll be freed in the end.

 

And while the two people who ended up in Hell were also thrown there by some assholes, the actual reason the fire accepted them and not Henry Sr., Liam, and Cora even though in all three cases the fire touched them initially is because those two were unrepentant.  Black Tooth was just as much of a greedy, conniving sell-out in death as he was with life, and Silver was maliciously attempting to make Liam and Killian (the latter having nothing to do with what killed him) walk the plank into Hell and showed no remorse for being such a douche in life.  Henry Sr., Liam and Cora all regretted the evil things they did, it doesn't matter if you argue "but they did worse than Black Tooth and Silver", because the magnitude of the deeds themselves clearly doesn't matter in the end, it's how you feel about them now that counts.

Edited by Mathius
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There's a difference between redemption and unfinished business. These people aren't "going to heaven". They're moving on to the afterlife because whatever was keeping them in the Underworld has been resolved. Someone's "unfinished business" could be that they tried to wipe out an entire family line and there was one left to kill. Conceivably when that person appears in the Underworld and they skewer them as well then their unfinished business is done and they can move on too. This is not a morality tale. At all. I can't work out if it's a problem of the writers for not making that clearer or of them underestimating that their audience would want it to be a morality tale.

 

Cora wasn't rewarded for doing one good thing. She resolved the issue she had regarding keeping her daughters apart by bringing them back together. You only go to the "bad place" if you try to move on with your issues unresolved. Which means the writers made a big mistake creating the "bad place" to begin with. Because as soon as you do that, humans inherently want the bad people to go to the bad place and the good people to go to the good place. And they don't cope well with redemption unless it's perceived as earned. Basically, the writers didn't take into account our monkey brains.

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My biggest problem with Cora getting a free pass into Heaven? The fact that she knew her older daughter was living in an abusive situation and she sent her back there! She could have wiped out Zelena's memory and placed her somewhere else (not that I'm excusing that:  I don't even like Zelena but watching her get dragged away screaming, begging her mother to accept her, was heartbreaking). But to purposely send her back to her adoptive father knowing what he was like:  to me that's unforgivable. 

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The problem with Cora's ending is the same as with Regina.  Its the writers.

 

They kept pushing very hard on Regina having changed and as just as the audience would start to adjust, they would have a flashback where Regina wold randomly murder a village and not in a way to demonstrate that she had changed.

 

They made similar, although lesser, mistakes with Cora in this arc.  If you are going to decide that Cora is going to bury he hatchet, and not in their backs, with her daughters and move on and avoid hellfire then the writers should have taken that into account in the episodes leading up to this.

 

The biggest issue I had is that Hades waved his hand an made Cora the Miller's daughter again.  Really, if that hadn't happened and Cora chose this path from a seat of power in UnderBrooke, even lesser than Hades, I'd be more likely to believe that Cora was being genuine.  But I 1000% don't believe that Cora would have done this if she was still in a position of power.

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I'm hoping we get some follow-up on David/James, or that David was the one who got stuck in the River of Lost Souls and now they must save him. The brother feud felt pointless because no one learned anything. James is a heartless jerk - the end. David didn't get any new information. It was odd how quickly James' demise was handled. There was very little emotion on David's face. Emma just reassured him he did the right thing, and we went to the next scene. All that was setup over the course of 5B and it didn't amount to anything but a fight. It was a retread of stuff we've already seen with other characters.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Yeah. The lack of more James-David interactions was very disappointing. David had more "meaningful" conversations with Cruella than with James in Underbrooke. 

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I can only hope KingOfHearts that David is now motivated to find a way to save the souls in the river (the river that is apparently also the ocean and means random fishermen must be lost to it all the time).

 

Because this whole 'hope' thing would be benefited from saving the souls that are lost.

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Yeah. The lack of more James-David interactions was very disappointing. David had more "meaningful" conversations with Cruella than with James in Underbrooke.

 

This is one of the things that pissed me off about this episode, other than the laughable notion of Cora earning a spot in a "better place." The promos made a big deal about the confrontation between James and David. There's been a lot (well, at least, a lot in terms of how this show usually treats David's storylines) of build up to James and David meeting and when it finally happens it's basically allotted five minutes in an episode yet again devoted to Regina and her family issues. There should have been more than one thirty second conversation between the brothers before it basically turned into a two minute fight scene and then James dispatched. Even if James does eventually get "rescued" from the river of lost souls, I doubt any time at all will really be given to exploring his and David's storyline. 

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Why doesn't everyone carry around a pocket magic mirror to keep tabs on people? Why do they only pop up randomly when the plot conveniently calls for it, only to disappear again? Why didn't Regina bother to use it earlier in the arc?

Edited by Curio
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It would make for a more interesting story if Regina/Zelena had to face leaving their mother in the Underworld or worse. Would that be the catalyst that made Zelena realize that she needs to be a good mom? Could that be the reason that Regina wants to be a better person - to avoid her mother's fate?

 

This is what I thought. That it would have been really powerful and interesting and character testing to see Zelena and Regina reunited by their mother then have to watch her still go to the bad place. It could either push one or both of them back to the dark side, like "she tried to reform and was still damned so why bother trying" or pushed them harder towards being good "guess I have to be really good to make up for my crimes" kind of thing.

 

I hadn't thought of it that way AudienceofOne. I think the flames from below/light from above thing makes it really hard not to see it as heaven and hell. I think it was a failure on the part of production because seriously flames from below vs warm white light from above really really cries heaven and hell to most people. And there is clearly a "good place" and a "bad place". So yeah, I don't think they made it clear because you just did and it makes perfect sense to me now. Like a "wow, how did I not see that" moment.

 

That said, it is pretty shitty that anyone can push anyone into moving on without resolving your issues, thereby condemning them to eternal torment. So, yeah, those pushed are totally going to be rescued.

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Emotionally, I thought it was a good episode.  Damn if I don't feel sympathy for Zelina.  How horrible has Cora been to her daughter?  I also don't understand this idea of a parent giving up a child, whether it was David/James or Zelina/Regina.  Who does that?!  I thought the scenes with Cora, Zelina, and Regina were very good, and yes, it tugged at my heartstrings.  Did Cora deserve to go into the light?  Wellllllllll, I'm guessing the lesson was that true repentance would be rewarded, and I'm guessing Zelina would have felt she had no chance at redemption if her mother got thrown into the fire.  That's my guess anyway.

 

The David/James thing was way too rushed.  Really?  One episode and he's gone?  I was hoping that David would get to see his evil stepfather King (James' father) along with David for an extended period of time in the Underworld, but I guess I should be grateful that David got some screen time at all.  Also, did Hook rescue David?  I know David got out of his cell, but the fact that Hook and David showed up together told me that maybe Hook figured out David was in trouble.  I don't know.  

 

It was good to see Peter Pan again because I thought he was a great character.  

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I think the flames from below/light from above thing makes it really hard not to see it as heaven and hell.

That's the big problem. They're stealing the heaven/hell imagery with the glowing light above and the flames below, so it's natural to assume that's what they're depicting. They could have skipped the moving on to the good place vs. the bad place thing and only had people moving on to one place beyond. The only ones who've gone to the "bad" place were knocked there, not people who were actually resolving things and moving on, so they could have used the River of Souls for that. The outcomes they've shown are resolving unfinished business and leaving the Underworld, getting knocked into the bad place, or being knocked into the River of Souls.

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We're also given the impression that we should be happy when someone walks through the bridge into the light.  I have doubts the Writers intend us to think that Cora walks across the bridge and gets swarmed by her former victims and must endure one hundred years of hard labor.

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I forgot to mention this before.

 

As Emma was leaving with fake David to find Robin Hood, I noticed two jackets were hanging on the door.  I knew as soon as Emma put on the black winter coat that James was going to get the upper hand on her.

 

Its so weird that this show is protective of Emma's red leather jacket's badass reputation when they don't worry that much about the characters.

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It was good to see Robbie again. That kid can really act. Certainly better than most of the older actors on the show. That tidbit of Pan in this episode wasn't enough.

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So what was Regina and Zelena's plan?  Zelena makes Hades fall in love with him, and he will eventually do everything she says?  Huh?   Or she will manage to make him a hero too, and then he'll be A-Ok with letting everyone go?  

 

Why didn't Regina or Emma just magick the baby supplies over to Robin?  

Edited by Camera One
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So what was Regina and Zelena's plan? Zelena makes Hades fall in love with him, and he will eventually do everything she says? Huh?

 

That's basically what happened once Robin started dating Regina... maybe that's where she got the idea from.

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So what was Regina and Zelena's plan?  Zelena makes Hades fall in love with him, and he will eventually do everything she says?  Huh?   Or she will manage to make him a hero too, and then he'll be A-Ok with letting everyone go?  

 

This makes perfect sense using show logic*. 

 

Regina has decided, now that she knows about a brief moment when she and Zelena knew each other as children, to give Zelena a chance and believe in her in hopes that it turns out how Snow/Emma giving Regina a chance did and allows them to be sisters.

 

Zelena has bought that Hades created Underbrooke and wants to punish Regina/Emma/etc. as a gift to her.  So if Zelena decides that isn't what she wants then she believes that Hades will no longer want it.

 

I understand what they are doing and why.

 

*That doesn't mean that I don't recognize that show logic is pretty dumb.  After the last episode, I complained they didn't immediately use Hook's carving hook to get as many of them out of Underbrooke as possible to get bad guys to swap places with them, starting with Rumple  This episode, the first thing I did was call everyone an idiot for letting Hades carve all their names on headstones.

Edited by ParadoxLost

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I understand why Regina wants to give Zelena a chance, but Hades is a different animal completely.  Giving a chance for Zelena to convince Hades to change his mind is fine... being all optimistic that it would actually work is a bit far-fetched.

 

In previous episodes, Hades wasn't only punishing the heroes as a gift to Zelena.  He was irked by their spreading hope in the Underworld and helping souls to move on.  Just last episode, he disposed of Aunt Em in a most horrific fashion.  As he said to Regina, "This is about so much more than just your sister."   

 

It's hard for me to take their plan seriously when it's so naive.

Edited by Camera One

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I was so disengaged from the Mills family shenanigans that during a two shot of Cora and Zelena I thought "wow, RM's like half a head taller than BH." I even mentioned it out loud to my friend as we were watching. At least now, it's mostly over, I hope. Not really loving Cora's fate either, but it's TS, TW.

I loved the bit when Hook asked after the baby. He did get to see the sonogram after all. That must of been a fun conversation with Emma afterwards ("umm...Swan...").

I also enjoyed the Hook/Cora scene. Now wondering if we'll get any Hook/Pan interaction.

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Hook's rather cavalier attitude about killing Zelena being a step in the right direction was jarring, given that he's otherwise become a lot more mellow and less bloodthirsty in death, but then I realized that she's largely responsible for what happened to him. It was her betrayal that got him and the Charmings captured by Arthur, and she tethered Merlin to Excalibur, which led to the hostage stand-off in which he was mortally wounded. I'm not sure exactly how all the sword tethering stuff works (then again, neither are the writers, more than likely), but it's possible that even if he had been wounded by Excalibur, he couldn't have been turned into a Dark One with it if Merlin hadn't already been tethered to it.

Or is it possible that it was the tethering that made it so that Excalibur wounds wouldn't heal? That would explain why Arthur didn't get cut in all his years of playing with his broken sword and why Merlin didn't think to warn them.

At any rate, I figure Hook has some reason to be a bit bitter with Zelena. If she hadn't betrayed them, he'd probably still be alive.

Also, it's suddenly striking me how weird it is to talk about a character's current actions and attitudes while talking about his death that's already happened. When he was alive, he was like this, but now he's like that.

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11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Hook's rather cavalier attitude about killing Zelena being a step in the right direction was jarring, given that he's otherwise become a lot more mellow and less bloodthirsty in death, but then I realized that she's largely responsible for what happened to him.

Hook's comment also made me do a double-take, especially since he was the one who was so adamantly against Emma murdering Zelena in cold blood in 5A. But that could easily link back to Hook's self-loathing issues where he might think it's more acceptable for him to kill someone because he's already gone off the darkness deep end and can't redeem his soul, but someone like Emma can still keep her soul untainted if she avoids killing Zelena. However, now that we know dead people can still live relatively normal lives in the Underworld, killing someone doesn't have quite the same impact it used to have on this show. In fact, killing Zelena would actually just mean she gets to live with Hades forever in the Underworld.

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Sorry to say it, Oncers, but I think the show has run it's course.  I'm having a hard time even following the logic/storyline anymore.  The frequent memory wipes is kind of reminiscent of Heroes.  By like the 3rd season, half the characters were able to change the past, so something big would happen, and three episodes later it never happened.  It's obvious that the writers have absolutely no plan, and didn't think the show would last anywhere near this long.  So they're going to keep coming up with more ridiculous, inconsistent plots.

So now are we supposed to believe that Zelena and Regina are going to be the new Anna and Elsa sister-friends?  Because of a couple of fun days that they forgot about until now?  What about the awful, hurtful things that happened since then?  Like Zelena purposefully getting pregnant with Regina's true love's baby?  Or Regina keeping Zelena away from her child?  There's a lot of reasons for them not to trust each other, but of course they will because FAMILYYY.

31 minutes ago, Curio said:

Hook's comment also made me do a double-take, especially since he was the one who was so adamantly against Emma murdering Zelena in cold blood in 5A. But that could easily link back to Hook's self-loathing issues where he might think it's more acceptable for him to kill someone because he's already gone off the darkness deep end and can't redeem his soul, but someone like Emma can still keep her soul untainted if she avoids killing Zelena. However, now that we know dead people can still live relatively normal lives in the Underworld, killing someone doesn't have quite the same impact it used to have on this show. In fact, killing Zelena would actually just mean she gets to live with Hades forever in the Underworld.

Well, you have to add in the fact that Emma is the savior and is special, because her parents were in love when they boinked.  And they transferred all of her potential evil into Lilith.  So therefore, Emma can do absolutely no wrong, because true love.  And family.

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Watched the episode!

Liked:

  • Cora and Hook reunited! My favorite evil brotp! Cora was happy to see him, and I'm sad that's all we got of those two.
  • Cora looked fab the entire episode.
  • I still ship Zades. I can't help it. Sorry. 
  • That last seen with Pan was great. Got chills with Pan's "I'm worse" line. A tumblr gifset summedit up perfectly: 3a and 3b finally collide.
  • I was actually fine with the flashbacks and the Mills family stuff. All except for the cliché "we got our memories back of our few days spent together so now this changes everything and we're besties"

What I didn't care for as much:

  • I thought the James/David stuff was short changed.
  • didn't like how at first Regina was saying how she got to decide what was best for Zelena, so I'm glad that ended.
  • i also thought Hook's comments about Zelena were jarring, but I'm chalking that up to the writers' fault. 
  • Robin's stealthy? Who knew? Maybe if he showed up on our screens more we'd get to learn other stuff about him.

I enjoyed the episode better than last weeks.

also, because I've seen a lot of people commenting about it (and I don't know if anyone else has addressed this): the young girls playing the young Mills' sisters got to do their own makeup for that scene. And I think it looks fairly realistic for young girls playing dress-up.

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20 hours ago, Curio said:

Hook's comment also made me do a double-take, especially since he was the one who was so adamantly against Emma murdering Zelena in cold blood in 5A.

At that time, though, he still didn't have his memories so he had no idea what Zelena had done. He thought at that time that Emma was just murdering Zelena in cold blood to save herself. Now he knows that they're in this situation largely because of Zelena and that she seemed to be actively working to trap all of them, so killing Zelena might have been a way to save everyone. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with Zelena going forward, now that she does seem to be repenting, as I'd hope he'd have some sympathy toward a recovering villain (at least, I'd expect him to be better about it than Regina has been).

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Also, when David said they'd find a way without killing anyone, Hook responded with a grim "I'm waiting for the better option".  It didn't seem at all like he WANTED to kill Zelena, it was just a case of him being his cynical self and not being able to see another way to get through to her (he was imprisoned and tortured when the others were dealing with Cora in the Underworld, so he certainly wouldn't know she was there and come up with that idea.)

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Good episode but the whole Regina/Zelena met each other, briefly knew they were sisters and forgot thing felt way too convenient for it's good though.

Cora's 'redemptive' arc had it's moments but it felt way too quick to be truly satisfying though I liked the flashbacks quite a lot and present scenes with Regina and Zelena.

Zelena won't be able to change Hades but she more than likely will play her own role in his downfall, intentional or not. Rumples and Pan snatching her at the end though.

Liked the Emma/Robin vs. James/Cruella scenes. Almost a shame that James was quickly dealt with though, 7/10

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