S02.E03: Useful Occupations And Deceptions

[Athena]

Jamie’s time is dominated by political machinations, while Claire finds solace in her healing skills.

 

This is the No Book Talk thread. Spoiled/Book Talk posters, your thread is here.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I can understand why Claire doesn't want to become a lady who lunches, but I also understand Jamie's concern for her health as well as the baby's. But Bouton! So cute!

 

Raymond still seems shady to me. And for some reason he reminded me of an oompa loompa this week. I'm not sure if it was the outfit or the wig but that's all I could see when he was talking to Claire.

 

Even though I wanted Claire to tell Jamie about Blackjack being alive right away, it kind of made me go awwwww when she and Murtagh talked about keeping it a secret in order to keep Jamie from charging off and getting himself killed.

 

How trustworthy is Fergus? If he gets caught, will he spill the beans? He's just a kid so I don't know how much they can rely on his loyalty.

 

Poor Mary. Not only will she have to put up with the indignity of sex, but with that sadist Randall? So far Claire's reaction is limited to realizing that Randall has to stay alive for at least another year so that he can marry and impregnate Mary, but I hope that she soon realizes all that will entail for Mary who is already aghast at S-E-X.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Hm...well that was... Well, honestly, it was a little boring.  Yeah.  That's gonna be an unpopular opinion with some.  Oh well. Let's see...

• Jamie was kind of jerk the first half (at least) of  this ep.   I get he's still suffering the PTSD, but he's also spending all night, several nights - LOTS of nights from the look of it at brothels, and well, even if he ain't getting any, neither is Claire AND she's home alone.  So...
• the fact that she wanted something to do (work at the charity hospital) I can't blame her.  And he can get over himself that she wasn't waiting patiently at home like  a good little wifey should.  (Then again, he hasn't been the good little hubby, has he?)
• Jamie did seem very happy to have a purpose and be staying busy - and away from Claire, which is really sad.
• So nice then that Claire got to have a purpose and stay busy.  Though she didn't do it to stay away from Jamie, but because he's been staying away from her.  
• I really expected better from Murtaugh.  I don't blame him from getting it on with the lady's maid, but he didn't think about the possible consequences of sex (with Claire pregnant...) at all?  Really?  What would he have done if the girl got with his child?  
• Seriously, this not telling Jamie that BJ is alive is not going to turn out well.
• Oh, Murtaugh...Claire's what?  5 or 6 months pregnant now?  And she still hasn't gotten any?  No wonder she is not herself.  I'm shocked he couldn't figure that out on his own.
• Agree with ElectricBoogaloo that Master Raymond still seems shady.

 

I'm sure there is more, but can't think of it right now.   

Edited April 23, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[RulerofallIsurvey]

One more thing: Jamie and Claire seem to be drifting further and further apart.  They were more affectionate, physically and otherwise even without actual sex, in the first episode than they were in this episode.  If this trend continues, I'm not sure how either the characters or the writers are going to fix it.

Edited April 25, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Wouldofshouldof]

I'm impatient with this season.  It pales in comparison to S1 IMHO.  I miss Jamie riding around the highlands in his scruffy beard and kilt and I miss Claire and Jamie not being able to keep their hands off one another.  I haven't read the books - hopefully they won't be in Paris forever.

[HowdyTV]

 

Poor Mary. Not only will she have to put up with the indignity of sex, but with that sadist Randall? So far Claire's reaction is limited to realizing that Randall has to stay alive for at least another year so that he can marry and impregnate Mary, but I hope that she soon realizes all that will entail for Mary who is already aghast at S-E-X.

Actually, ElectricBoogaloo, marrying a gay man might be advantageous for her. Outside of delivering one heir, he may likely leave her alone to act the part of his wife. It would suit her, and leave him free for his sadistic pleasures elsewhere.

[ganesh]

This season is seriously hilarious. Interjecting all this humor is a good choice considering the literal doom on the horizon. 

 

Why do they show the snake in the opening theme? The positioning of the snake looks exactly like the opening theme to I, Claudius. Which is awesome if it's deliberate, but I feel like that might be too much of a leap. I know it's Jamie's snake, but it's in the same shape. 

 

Claire remembered a tiny detail like Mary Hawkins and probably, nearly invented the first time travel paradox. Good job, Claire, for storing that away in your memory. I commend Claire on her situational awareness and being able to draw on her knowledge within the larger context. It's good that she paid careful attention to Frank and is able to draw on all those details now in the past.

 

Oh, Jamie. I guess they had manpain back then too? Och, I have to go to teh whorehouse and drink. Then play chess! I get that he's taking Claire on faith, so it can be frustrating. You're playing a long con though. I have to say

 

Good plan by Jamie to hire the boy, and good for Claire to recognize the value. 

 

I could watch people sit around all day and decode letters all day. Claire doesn't know all the tiny details leading up to the battle (and she shouldn't), so it's fair to lay the groundwork of them actually putting in the work. 

 

Seriously, though, if I'm writing things in code, I'm signing myself as Q. Everyone would be like, who is Q? No one is Q. Who uses their own initial? 

 

The dog! Brilliant!

 

It terms of Blackjack, it's for the greater good with Jamie not knowing. Claire shouldn't have said anything to anyone. She didn't tell anyone that Frank is a descendant of Black Jack. Why not stfu?

 

I really like this season. It's clearly on a slow burn, and that's not an issue with me. It's setting up a good contrast with the main theme being to stop the battle. I think they're clearly showing that a monarchy is just a stupid way to run a government, by Charlie being one of the biggest bags around. And they show "court life", which amounted to Claire playing cards. I'd strangle someone. 

 

On the other hand, Claire is in a public area to hear gossip, and maybe something useful.

Edited April 24, 2016 by ganesh

[GenieinTX]

I felt awful at the end of this episode.  Jamie and Claire are so distant and unhappy and now there is this big secret between them.  This is not going to go well.  Our sweet couple is going to be on the outs for a while I suspect, and I don't like it!  And it's totally bothering me that they are so openly talking in front of the servants.  I get they think they are loyal, but that seems like a dumb move.

 

But Murtagh is getting some - good for him! 

[Kate47]

I have to rewatch, but one thing I noticed and found interesting was that Jamie finally returns to his formal kilt when he has the breakthrough. He spends the whole episode in this finery and being super uncomfortable and then when he finally solves the puzzle he's in the clothes he feels most comfortable in.

[ganesh]

I don't think the show is going to go there, but I'm wondering if Claire being in the hospital could have repercussions. What if her assistance saves the life of someone who actually died in the original timeline?

[kayma]

Maybe I'm easy, but I loved this episode and was surprised when it ended. I don't always know who the new characters are when they show up again, but I get enthralled anyway. I like that Claire is feeling useful again. I like the Claire and Jamie distance for now. I love Murtaugh and am glad he's enjoying himself. And, I'm glad they all got a win at the end even if, I'm sure, it's short lived.

[nara]

I like this episode, including the slower pace. One issue I had with season 1 part 2 (and most book adaptations) is that they go quickly from major event to major event without lulls in between. In the case of Outlander, that's part of the reason it seems so rapey and why some people struggled to see why Claire would pick Jamie. We never really saw them enjoy a normal day.

I'm assuming there will be a rapprochement between Claire and Jamie before she's sent back to the future, but I want it to happen soon. What they are going through is realistic, given Jamie's trauma and his schedule, but I don't watch this show for realism-- dammit!

A few things:

Shouldn't Jamie change his smelly shirt and brush his teeth before going to see the king in Versailles? I mean, a little respect, please!

Claire tasting the urine--ew!

I guess we've met our next rape victim, poor little Mary Hawkins. What are the chances that Blackjack will impregnate her gently? She was sent to France to marry an aristocrat--why didn't her mother or governess educate her on the facts of life before sending her? I really hope Claire teaches her some stuff and helps her understand how she can be better prepared for sex. Oh well, at least BJR is not old and covered with warts...

I am not a doctor, but didn't cutting open that pus filled wound expose Claire and the child to infection? I hope she doesn't get sick and lose this baby. That would definitely put a barrier between Claire and Jamie. That being said, I like that Claire has a strong need to help people. Deep down, Jamie likes that about her too.

How I would hate to be the actor with Buton smelling my face and crotch.

I'm surprised that it took them so long to land on Sandringham as a player supporting Prince Charles. Claire has known since the beginning that he was suspected of it.

I assume St. Germain will be thebig bad of the season, but I want to see where he fits in soon.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Actually, ElectricBoogaloo, marrying a gay man might be advantageous for her. Outside of delivering one heir, he may likely leave her alone to act the part of his wife. It would suit her, and leave him free for his sadistic pleasures elsewhere.

 

Just in case, though this information does not come from the books, but interviews and such, I thought

the author has come out and said that BJR is not gay?

 In any event, in the first season, BJ was about to rape Claire, so I'm not sure that would save Mary.  If anything, I'd be afraid that he would be more likely to take out his frustration on her as his wife (she's convenient) if he doesn't have anyone else to torture.  

 

Seriously, though, if I'm writing things in code, I'm signing myself as Q. Everyone would be like, who is Q? No one is Q. Who uses their own initial? 

LOL!  Love this!  Brilliant!

 

And it's totally bothering me that they are so openly talking in front of the servants.  I get they think they are loyal, but that seems like a dumb move.

I completely forgot about that until you mentioned it.  But yeah, I cringed the first time they did that.  I know they said the servants were trustworthy, but trustworthy to whom?  To Jared?  (They are HIS servants after all?)  And he is a loyal Jacobite - unlike Jamie and Claire.  So...kind of worried about that bit.

 

I assume St. Germain will be thebig bad of the season, but I want to see where he fits in soon.

I think he will be (is?) a villian, but not the big bad.  Since BJR is still alive, I'm going to say it's still him.  

[kylies-lips]

This episode was a bit boring but full of good information.

 

So re: Mary Hawkins. We saw in the previous episode that she was making googly eyes with Black Jack's younger brother. Could it be that he may actually be direct line ancestor of Frank? Perhaps she does marry Black Jack but has a more passionate love affair with the brother and BJR is none the wiser?

 

It is very uncomfortable watching this show with Claire and Jamie so distant from one another. I do like Claire explaining her need for a purpose and Jamie being frustrated with that. Obviously Claire being from the 1940's and having a wartime nursing career would find tea time and other ladies' activities boringsville. And Jamie being from the mid-1700's would really have no concept of a woman wanting to feel productive. Jamie is obviously open minded (he is married to at time traveler!) he is still living in his contemporary time.

[nara]

This episode was a bit boring but full of good information.

 

So re: Mary Hawkins. We saw in the previous episode that she was making googly eyes with Black Jack's younger brother. Could it be that he may actually be direct line ancestor of Frank? Perhaps she does marry Black Jack but has a more passionate love affair with the brother and BJR is none the wiser?

 

It is very uncomfortable watching this show with Claire and Jamie so distant from one another. I do like Claire explaining her need for a purpose and Jamie being frustrated with that. Obviously Claire being from the 1940's and having a wartime nursing career would find tea time and other ladies' activities boringsville. And Jamie being from the mid-1700's would really have no concept of a woman wanting to feel productive. Jamie is obviously open minded (he is married to at time traveler!) he is still living in his contemporary time.

BJR cuckolded would make me very happy!

Also, even in today's world, a person might want a spouse to have a fulfilling career, but still want him/her to be available when you need to vent/be comforted. We all reserve the right to be selfish and needy at times...as long as it's infrequent.

This episode was a bit boring but full of good information.

 

So re: Mary Hawkins. We saw in the previous episode that she was making googly eyes with Black Jack's younger brother. Could it be that he may actually be direct line ancestor of Frank? Perhaps she does marry Black Jack but has a more passionate love affair with the brother and BJR is none the wiser?

 

It is very uncomfortable watching this show with Claire and Jamie so distant from one another. I do like Claire explaining her need for a purpose and Jamie being frustrated with that. Obviously Claire being from the 1940's and having a wartime nursing career would find tea time and other ladies' activities boringsville. And Jamie being from the mid-1700's would really have no concept of a woman wanting to feel productive. Jamie is obviously open minded (he is married to at time traveler!) he is still living in his contemporary time.

BJR cuckolded would make me very happy!

Also, even in today's world, a person might want a spouse to have a fulfilling career, but still want him/her to be available when you need to vent/be comforted. We all reserve the right to be selfish and needy at times...as long as it's infrequent.

[WInterfalls]

I think it makes total sense that Jamie would not want Claire to work. It's shows that in many ways he is a man of his time and it doesn't necessarily make him come off well because of it. But at the same time he doesn't forbid her to do it and she keeps going back.

I agree that it's pretty sad that they are not connecting as a couple so much right now, but based on Claire's response when she gets back home it won't last forever. I actually appreciate that Jamie is having PTSD problems because it's real.

[iMonrey]

This was a rather slow, talky episode but I liked it. The first season was such a torture-pornfest I didn't even know if I'd watch this season, but I'm glad I am (so far). It's been a nice break from capture-rescue-capture-rescue. And Frances de la Tour! Didn't expect to see her here. I'm intrigued by where this is all going and how they think they can stop the Jocobite war, but they prefaced the entire season by a flash-forward that clearly demonstrates they won't be successful in this effort, so it's sort of anti-climatic. 

[abbey]

as far as the servants overhearing Jamie and Claire's discussions, this was addressed by Diana Gabaldon over on the compu-serve forum she frequents.  She says that there has been a whole lot of jacobite gossip going on for years and it truly wouldn't be of interest to the servants.  Personal gossip would be of interest (i.e. suzette mentioning to Murtagh that there was no sex happening between Jamie and Claire).  But political gossip would not be of interest so they wouldn't be paying attention.  In addition it was mentioned in a previous episode that they were loyal to Jarod, so presumably that loyalty would extend to his relatives. 

[ganesh]

What is this "compu-serve" of which you speak?

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

What is this "compu-serve" of which you speak?

When I first heard people talking about it, I googled Compuserve Diana Gabaldon and found a forum that discusses the show and books. Mostly they talk about the books there (but I did look during the hiatus). Diana comments on threads from time to time.

 

99.9% of the threads run under the assumption that the people reading them have read the published books so it's not a good place for non-book readers who want to stay unspoiled. I can't remember if the show threads are show only or if they can talk about books. Even the thread titles could be spoilery since they mention characters and plots that haven't shown up yet.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Rilla my Rilla

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I'm intrigued by where this is all going and how they think they can stop the Jocobite war, but they prefaced the entire season by a flash-forward that clearly demonstrates they won't be successful in this effort, so it's sort of anti-climatic. 

Agreed.  Which is why I'm actually kind of dreading the rest of the season.  But I realize, that's just me. :/

[RulerofallIsurvey]

as far as the servants overhearing Jamie and Claire's discussions, this was addressed by Diana Gabaldon over on the compu-serve forum she frequents.  She says that there has been a whole lot of jacobite gossip going on for years and it truly wouldn't be of interest to the servants.  Personal gossip would be of interest (i.e. suzette mentioning to Murtagh that there was no sex happening between Jamie and Claire).  But political gossip would not be of interest so they wouldn't be paying attention.  In addition it was mentioned in a previous episode that they were loyal to Jarod, so presumably that loyalty would extend to his relatives. 

That's actually very interesting - and I am not actually trying to be snarky here - but it's not evident just from what is presented in the show.  

 

At the same time, after thinking about what you said a little more, it makes sense.  The servants would not be as well educated as their "masters", ie: Jamie and Claire, etc.  (They probably couldn't even read back then.)  So they likely would not even understand all the political intrigue.  Whereas the personal gossip would be something to which they could better relate - and laugh at their "betters".  I just wish that had been explained better in the show.  

[ganesh]

Just because we know they fail doesn't mean they don't come really close. They're could be a couple of decisions that do them in.

Or, everything is set to stop the war and Jamie goes nuts when he hears BJR is alive.

[Andorra]

About the servants: How many French are able to follow a talk about politics between two native english speakers today? They all are taught English in school and they're confronted with English nearly every day in the Internet, but still if I look around, out of 10 people in my acquaintance there's maybe one who says she understands enough English to watch a movie or a TV series in the original language and even those say they have to concentrate very hard to understand what they're saying. Even more so if someone speaks with a heavy accent like Jamie does.

 

200 years ago? I don't think servants, who probably didn't go to school at all nor were able to read, didn't have news, books or read newspapers, would know enough English to get what Jamie and Claire were talking about. And even if they did, they would probably not care. What interest did they have in politics? They weren't allowed to vote, they probably only barely knew that there was a country named Scotland, but I doubt they knew about the Jacobites or the conflict with the English. 

 

Jared was fluent in French as are Claire and Jamie. They probably talk French with them. I know at least Suzette and the Butler (Antoine?) speak broken English, but I'm sure that is mostly for the benefit of the American viewers,to not have too many subtitled conversations in French. I think Suzette and Antoine would probably be able to understand basic commands and talk about things related to their daily work, but not politics. 

Edited April 26, 2016 by Andorra

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 4/24/2016 at 11:11 PM, Kate47 said:

I have to rewatch, but one thing I noticed and found interesting was that Jamie finally returns to his formal kilt when he has the breakthrough. He spends the whole episode in this finery and being super uncomfortable and then when he finally solves the puzzle he's in the clothes he feels most comfortable in.

For anyone who can't get enough, here's a deleted scene of Jamie putting on his kilt.  I never knew it was so involved!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky8P_ARhIeA

[iMonrey]

I think it's also important to remember that a lot of the French at the time - servants or otherwise - probably didn't give a flying fig about any kind of Jacobite rebellion. I mean, how would it have directly affected anyone in France, other than perhaps the very wealthy and the nobility? I'm sure it was a hotter topic in England and Scotland, but not so much in France, especially among the working class. So no matter how much of their plans Claire and Jamie are discussing in front of their servants, it's unlikely any of them care about such political intrigue. 

[MamaMax]

Am I the only person who was surprised at how wealthy Jamie & Claire appear to be? I thought back at Lallybrook, there were money problems and lots of talk about keeping the estate afloat if the rents weren't paid. So how are they affording the clothes and other accoutrements in Paris? I know it's Jared's house...but still. Would the 35% of the wine sales be that much?

[kieyra]

On May 25, 2016 at 2:34 PM, MamaMax said:

Am I the only person who was surprised at how wealthy Jamie & Claire appear to be? I thought back at Lallybrook, there were money problems and lots of talk about keeping the estate afloat if the rents weren't paid. So how are they affording the clothes and other accoutrements in Paris? I know it's Jared's house...but still. Would the 35% of the wine sales be that much?

Yeah, I'm catching up on S2 right now (after swearing off the show for a while), and the shift is jarring. I haven't read other episode threads yet, and I don't know how book readers are reacting, but honestly it feels like this was just a situation where the author wanted an excuse to shift the milieu to 'wealthy French lady' instead of highlander clan or whatever. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 6/6/2016 at 10:26 PM, kieyra said:

Yeah, I'm catching up on S2 right now (after swearing off the show for a while), and the shift is jarring. I haven't read other episode threads yet, and I don't know how book readers are reacting, but honestly it feels like this was just a situation where the author wanted an excuse to shift the milieu to 'wealthy French lady' instead of highlander clan or whatever. 

I don't know about the other accoutrements, but as @MamaMax noted, it is Jared's house.  Also, his carriages, horses, servants, etc.  He might have even had food (for the servants at least) budgeted during his absence.  So, I would think the only thing they would really have to pay for on their own was their clothes and some miscellaneous expenses (certainly Jamie's expenditures at the brothels).  I could be completely wrong about that though.  

I don't know about the author, but it does feel like the show's producer used the setting as an excuse to have as many elaborate costumes as possible.

[bettername2come]

Bouton is my new favorite character. He's adorable and talented! I liked the more peaceful episode. I'm enjoying the change in setting. I was way too excited to see no violence or nudity warnings when the episode started. 

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:34 PM, bettername2come said:

I liked the more peaceful episode. I'm enjoying the change in setting. I was way too excited to see no violence or nudity warnings when the episode started. 

I agree 100%. This episode had a lot going on and I thought it was great. I'm enjoying getting to see the educated side of Jamie and I enjoy Claire's future medical experience at work in the 1700's but tasting pee, ewwww. I loved them working together decoding the letters, more of that please! The pick-pocket boy was a great catch Jamie, I can see using him as a spy too, he could probably gather a lot of useful information being around the drunk men at the brothels.

I wished this season didn't start with the flash forward. We could've had hope that everything they are doing in France will make a difference but with the flash forward we know it doesn't.

[Cdh20]

6 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I agree 100%. This episode had a lot going on and I thought it was great. I'm enjoying getting to see the educated side of Jamie and I enjoy Claire's future medical experience at work in the 1700's but tasting pee, ewwww. I loved them working together decoding the letters, more of that please! The pick-pocket boy was a great catch Jamie, I can see using him as a spy too, he could probably gather a lot of useful information being around the drunk men at the brothels.

I wished this season didn't start with the flash forward. We could've had hope that everything they are doing in France will make a difference but with the flash forward we know it doesn't.

It's kind of a rotten spoiler!

[Camera One]

This was the first episode in Season 2 I really liked.  I too enjoyed the slower pace, seeing their everyday life.  Plus there is now momentum in their plans to change the past.  I liked seeing them work through the letters.

The costumes and sets are nicely immersive.  The contrast from last year is a tad jarring.  I watched Season 1 years ago, so I only remembered Jaime as hotheaded warrior than meticulous bookkeeper and clever chess master/code-breaker.  

On 4/25/2016 at 1:40 PM, iMonrey said:

The first season was such a torture-pornfest I didn't even know if I'd watch this season, but I'm glad I am (so far). It's been a nice break from capture-rescue-capture-rescue. 

Yes, that was just so tiresome.  I'm dreading a return to that.

I'm also hating the soap opera-ish Secrets and Lies, Jack Randall is Alive edition.  I'm assuming that's going to bring the return of these characters charging into situations with zero planning.

[gingerella]

So...yeah...still not liking Paris even though there was no horrible flashbacks for Jamie or other gore. Claire’s outfits are rather fabulous but Jamie is too goofy in his French frock coats, I miss the kilts if I’m being honest 😊, I miss Claire’s Scottish frocks as well. Okay, that is the superficial review. And according to the maid, there is still no hanky panky going down with Jamie and Claire, which is realistic I think given his PTSD.

I’m still baffled that Claire’s pregnancy is barely mentioned, it seems odd between these two people who have been through so such a short time, having a baby seems like it should be more of a big deal than the show is making it, it’s like an afterthought right now. I did like that we get to meet the apothecary again, I like him and hope he doesn’t betray claire and disappoint me. The priggish Comte is giong Otto be a problem at some point but I’m not sure when...he’s like a slow burn villain.

The whole reveal that Mary is destined to be BJRs wife, didn’t surprise me that much, I mean it did and it didn’t. I figured at some point Claire would run into something like this but I wasn’t sure if BJR was a direct descendant of Frank’s or a distant relative, and I thought Jonathan was his brother because he’s called Jack, so it took me a few minutes to realize it was as THAT Randall, which now sucks because he has to live long enough to impregnate Mary until she has whichever child is the direct descendant to Frank, poor woman...I pity her so much. I started to think that okay, so no big deal if Frank never gets born since Claire knows Jamie is her soul mate, not Frank. But then I realized that if Frank didn’t exist, then Claire wouldn’t have been in Inverness and gone to the Stones in the first place. But THEN I thought, If the Stones summon specific people to them, why wouldn’t they still summon Claire there in some way?! So it was back to, is it really that imperative that Frank lives? Clearly I am not a seasoned time traveler viewer! So now I am wondering if Claire will play a role in hooking up Mary and BJR because if I was her I’d be trying to get those two together ASAP so he can impregnate her ASAP and then someone can kill the bastard once and for all! I live for that day...

There is no way Sandringham will stand down with the rebellion so why would they even entertain that? Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice...

I was so NOT a fan of Jamie dashing in and out of the house, constantly hobnobbing with BPC and the Ministry of Finance, that isn’t the same Jamie, and I blame that on Claire and her half baked idea to thwart the rebellion - her hair brained idea has changed him. Right about now, she’s also having thoughts about Mary and BJR and I assume she’s starting to realize what it means, and what it would have meant if BJR had died by stampede. So why would she continue to think she can change history? This baffles me greatly. 

The one bright spot for me was seeing Murtagh get some good, good lovin’! And it was sort of endearing that Claire was trying to help him by getting protection for her maid. With each episode, my Murtagh love grows! He would not only do anything for Jamie, he would now do anything for Claire too. I hope we have him around for many seasons as I cannot imagine this story without Murtagh. I take hope that Murtagh seems to have a good head on his shoulders. 

All in all, color me confused, this story is sitting weird with me right now...

[SassAndSnacks]

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

I’m still baffled that Claire’s pregnancy is barely mentioned, it seems odd between these two people who have been through so such a short time, having a baby seems like it should be more of a big deal than the show is making it, it’s like an afterthought right now.

Yes. Let's also keep in mind that both Jamie and Claire believed she was unable to have children, which makes it even odder to me that they aren't talking about the pregnancy more.  At this point, Claire has no idea that the fertility issues were actually on Frank's side of things and not hers, so THIS pregnancy would/should seem to be more miraculous and special.  

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was so NOT a fan of Jamie dashing in and out of the house, constantly hobnobbing with BPC and the Ministry of Finance, that isn’t the same Jamie...

Though I understand his side, I was disappointed in his reaction to Claire volunteering at the hospital.  He is playing this great game of pretend, and we've seen before that he can more easily slide in and out of roles.  But Claire cannot.  She couldn't possibly sit all day, having tea and playing cards with the ladies without shooting off her mouth and saying something wrong.  She is obviously very passionate about helping people and she's freaking good at it.  I'm glad he saw the opportunity the hospital presented in the end. 

The distance between them is unsettling, but I think that's the point.  They are fish out of water here, both in Paris proper and with the game they are playing.  They know it and we know it, yet they keep at it and we keep watching.  

[Anothermi]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

I’m still baffled that Claire’s pregnancy is barely mentioned, it seems odd between these two people who have been through so such a short time, having a baby seems like it should be more of a big deal than the show is making it, it’s like an afterthought right now

Except for Jamie using it as an excuse to be upset with Claire—for completely unrelated reasons—I wasn't expecting 18th century husbands to talk about their possible off spring except in private bedroom moments. And that only if the marriage is as close as C & J's. BUT we learn that bedroom encounters were not currently happening so...

I did notice that Claire walked around the house with her dressing gown open and I could recognize a baby bump. That was good enough for me. Of course Jamie is aware of the many negative outcomes of pregnancy in his "time" and is probably relieved that he hasn't got time to worry about them.  What Claire knows about pregnancy—except as a medical professional—seems to have come from Jenny whose view is to just get on with things. 'Nuff said. 

What I found interesting is the juxtaposition of the male POV on women's role as a wife between 1744 and 1945. I didn't see much difference. Both men express their concerns—which I accept as appropriate—by trying to control what the woman can do—which I don't find acceptable in my time. In Jamie's time he is cornered into being the one who is actually able to step into the political world they both agree is the means to achieve their ends.  Frank's world is still skewed towards men being the ones to be active in the world, but even he would be aware that women are doing things that were unthinkable—in genteeler circles—the generation before him. Both act as if it is their role to tell the woman what to do. Happily Claire just does what she needs to do—even if it conveniently assists her and Jamie's cause.  

 

I took the reappearance of newly-formed-enemy The Priggish Comte as an omen of impending conflict, but if he ends up on BJR's team I'll be right pissed off!  I'll just hope for a shocking! twist! in that guy's storyline. At least until I view the next episodes.

And what is with Claire acting as though every herbalist is going to be her bosom friend? First Geillis and now French-Apothecary-Guy? It may be true that he's savvy enough to butter up the rich patrons, but what if he's doing the same with Claire? I want to like him, but I'd rather his assistant turns out to be Claire's real ally.

I liked that we got a new character in the form of Oliver "Fergus" Twist. It explains that weird scene where Jamie randomly searches for his carved snake and discovers it's missing! The snake Claire passed on to him from Jenny at Lallybroch. But then goes on to mansplain what it is to Claire? Lots of eyerolling from me during that scene. As soon as we were shown the boy engaged in pickpocketing I knew where the snake had gone. Score 1 for me! (that gives me a whopping total of 1 on my scoreboard now). I'm planning on enjoying his role in this story.  🤞

I also looked a bit side-eyed at the decoding and chess abilities of our lovely Jamie—but I'll take it over what we were served last season.

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

The one bright spot for me was seeing Murtagh get some good, good lovin’! And it was sort of endearing that Claire was trying to help him by getting protection for her maid.

I'm totally in favour of the gradual unfolding of Murtagh as a fully fledged character. Loved that he started as an enigma who was clearly on Jamie's side. Loved learning how this bond came to be. Loved the bond that formed between Claire and Murtagh.  

This episode they were both sidelined to Jamie's manic pursuit of the wacky-plan-to-change-history. Both wanting to do something useful... And they got to. Thanks show.

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

The whole reveal that Mary is destined to be BJRs wife, didn’t surprise me that much, I mean it did and it didn’t. I figured at some point Claire would run into something like this but I wasn’t sure if BJR was a direct descendant of Frank’s or a distant relative, and I thought Jonathan was his brother because he’s called Jack

Jeez. Until I read that I was happily thinking that the charming Randal Brother was young Mary's target. Does that mean he is an intermediary?  What will Mary think when she learns what Englishmen do to women? Or will Mary become to BJR what Claire is to Frank? (don't think so)

Does that mean BJR might come to France? No. no. no. no. no. no. no.

[SassAndSnacks]

37 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

What I found interesting is the juxtaposition of the male POV on women's role as a wife between 1744 and 1945. I didn't see much difference. Both men express their concerns—which I accept as appropriate—by trying to control what the woman can do—which I don't find acceptable in my time. In Jamie's time he is cornered into being the one who is actually able to step into the political world they both agree is the means to achieve their ends.  Frank's world is still skewed towards men being the ones to be active in the world, but even he would be aware that women are doing things that were unthinkable—in genteeler circles—the generation before him. Both act as if it is their role to tell the woman what to do. Happily Claire just does what she needs to do—even if it conveniently assists her and Jamie's cause.

This is a great statement.  I often wonder if I had gone back to this time, could I do it?  Could I handle it?  Hell no.  I think any woman of this current time would struggle more than Claire did, not even considering Claire's unconventional upbringing for the time or modern conveniences.  The social norms between the two time periods aren't vastly different for Claire, and it would be even more shocking for women today.  The men are still calling the shots in both 1945 and 1745.  The major adjustment for Claire, in terms of shot calling and agency and usefulness and belonging, probably came more from returning from the front after the war and settling back into her life as a wife.  

While thinking of that, and getting a little bit down a rabbit-hole, consider the number of changes that have happened in Claire's life in a very short time - war ends, return home, reunite with husband, go through stones, face death and danger, function as an outsider, get married again, nearly lose spouse, get pregnant, go to France...some things we don't yet know...and then back into the present and back to Frank.  It's a lot.  So I forgive her for being a little outspoken and crabby sometimes.  

[Anothermi]

On 3/1/2021 at 11:46 PM, Camera One said:

I'm also hating the soap opera-ish Secrets and Lies, Jack Randall is Alive edition.  fI'm assuming that's going to bring the return of these characters charging into situations with zero planning.

Ha ha. Whether soap opera-ish or Panto-ish—that reveal was never going to be well accepted.

And another snicker at the possible return of our beloved characters charging into situations with zero planning. Between boring rounds of chess playing and brothel visiting—or charging in? I'm hoping a third approach will be offered. 

[gingerella]

On 3/29/2021 at 7:57 AM, SassAndSnacks said:

I was disappointed in his reaction to Claire volunteering at the hospital.  He is playing this great game of pretend, and we've seen before that he can more easily slide in and out of roles.  But Claire cannot.  She couldn't possibly sit all day, having tea and playing cards with the ladies without shooting off her mouth and saying something wrong.  She is obviously very passionate about helping people and she's freaking good at it.  I'm glad he saw the opportunity the hospital presented in the end. 

The distance between them is unsettling, but I think that's the point.  They are fish out of water here, both in Paris proper and with the game they are playing.  They know it and we know it, yet they keep at it and we keep watching.  

Thank you for expressing this better than I could Sass! Yes, it was disappointing to see his reaction, but then later on when she isn't home and he's sitting at his desk frustrated, he tells her he is out running around trying to stop the rebellion - HER IDEA, not his! - and he wants to come home to his wife and her support to share his recon info with. So I think that he is upset that she is possibly putting their unborn child in harms way, and also wants to hurry home to her so she can help him piece things together. Claire is very smart and Jamie knows this. I'm sure he knows he has limitations and so that is why when he and Murtagh break the code I'm sitting there thinking, "Seriously?" I mean, I love me some Murtagh, and god knows he's shown his street smarts with the cattle stampede into prison, and Jamie too has street smarts and can read a room, but still, I found I really had to suspend disbelief that they could crack the code! And that right there is my issue with Paris right now - it's more like a 1744 Laurel & Hardy episode, it doesn't feel like the same show as last season.

As for Claire being a healer, I think Colum did her the biggest favor by making her the healer at Castle Leoch because it allowed her to tap into her medical/herbal healing skills and that is standing her in good stead now.

Lastly on the above, yeah, I think the distance between them is what is so unsettling. Since they married they've barely been apart (I mean when one of them isn't being held captive somewhere, they never spend their nights apart) and the fact that Jamie is never home seems so odd and worrisome. The thing is though, I'm not entirely sure they do know they're in over their heads here, I think they think they can pull this off. I am way too invested in these two!

On 3/29/2021 at 10:48 AM, Anothermi said:

What I found interesting is the juxtaposition of the male POV on women's role as a wife between 1744 and 1945. I didn't see much difference. Both men express their concerns—which I accept as appropriate—by trying to control what the woman can do—which I don't find acceptable in my time. In Jamie's time he is cornered into being the one who is actually able to step into the political world they both agree is the means to achieve their ends.  Frank's world is still skewed towards men being the ones to be active in the world, but even he would be aware that women are doing things that were unthinkable—in genteeler circles—the generation before him. Both act as if it is their role to tell the woman what to do. Happily Claire just does what she needs to do—even if it conveniently assists her and Jamie's cause.  

Such an interesting take! I agree with most of this and also want to add that when we've seen Claire try to take the reins and insert herself into certain situations - her private meeting with the Duke before Jamie met with him, her meeting with the Duke at the party after Jamie takes Murtagh away, her meeting with the British soldiers when she's taken there with Dougal, when she meets the Finance Minister alone, when she meets the head of the prison - none of the instances where Claire inserts herself and tried to take matters into her own hands seem to work, all those situations seem to end in one disaster or another. So even when she plows ahead in this man's world, it's not successful for her. Though in the man's world of the WWII, she does exist successfully in a man's world as an army field nurse. Interesting...

ETA:

On 3/29/2021 at 10:48 AM, Anothermi said:

Jeez. Until I read that I was happily thinking that the charming Randal Brother was young Mary's target. Does that mean he is an intermediary?  What will Mary think when she learns what Englishmen do to women? Or will Mary become to BJR what Claire is to Frank? (don't think so)

Does that mean BJR might come to France? No. no. no. no. no. no. no.

Yes @Anothermi, I also thought Mary was sweet on BJRs brother. I didn't realize that Jonathan Randall was Jack Randall until I re watched several times and Claire says to Murtagh she met his brother, Alex Randal, then I want AHA! I wonder if Mary marries Alex, who seems to be of sensitive constitution, gets her pregnant, and then dies and BJR marries her because brothers did that sort of thing back then. So maybe there is hope that BJR doesn't reproduce?!? I'll hope for anything right now that stops the spread of his demon seed. Another possibility is that Alex introduces Mary to BJR and he decides to marry her himself because he is the eldest and requires a bride and/or offspring in order to inherit something? Also a common situation back then.  As for BJR coming to France, it is possible but unlikely. He's only a captain, and he would have to get approved leave to come to France, let alone be able to afford passage. And THAT brings another query to mind - how long was the passage between Scotland and France? In ships with sails that huge, it couldn't take more than a week or less to sail across the Channel, could it?

And last but not least, if the Duke of S is 'S', then he's likely going to double cross BPC because I don't think the Duke stands for anything or anyone that isn't enriching himself directly. He is a flatulent asshole. And BPC is perfectly cast as a feeble-minded yet entitled twit who thinks everyone exists to do his bidding. Sorry Charlie...

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by gingerella

[Cdh20]

One of the big things I read into Jamie’s frustration with Claire working at the hospital was some sexual frustration. Hear me out- those 2 are off kilter all because they aren’t connecting in the bedroom ( with good reason). This is usually where they talk over everything and Jamie is staying out night & day to avoid her advances I think ( also to work their cause). They work best together! It seemed ooc for Jamie because usually he is so proud of her medical skills. 

[gingerella]

6 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

One of the big things I read into Jamie’s frustration with Claire working at the hospital was some sexual frustration. Hear me out- those 2 are off kilter all because they aren’t connecting in the bedroom ( with good reason). This is usually where they talk over everything and Jamie is staying out night & day to avoid her advances I think ( also to work their cause). They work best together! It seemed ooc for Jamie because usually he is so proud of her medical skills. 

I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense!

[SassAndSnacks]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Claire is very smart and Jamie knows this.

I think this ties back so nicely to the point you made in the the S2.01 thread, where you pointed out that Frank dismissed Claire's knowledge of what and who the Jacobites were and why they were named as such.  Jamie doesn't take Claire's knowledge for granted.  In fact, he values and embraces it.  

But I'll stop with the Frank pile-on now. 

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

The thing is though, I'm not entirely sure they do know they're in over their heads here, I think they think they can pull this off. I am way too invested in these two!

Oooh, good point.  These two are both so confidant - in their cleverness, their relationship, their perceived destiny - they underestimate other people in the process.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

none of the instances where Claire inserts herself and tried to take matters into her own hands seem to work, all those situations seem to end in one disaster or another. So even when she plows ahead in this man's world, it's not successful for her. Though in the man's world of the WWII, she does exist successfully in a man's world as an army field nurse. Interesting...

Hmm, perhaps as a field nurse, she was able to rely on her natural talents for empathy and healing?  She was in her zone, comfortable, and in control.  In these other situations, she was playing someone else's game and foolishly thought she could gain the upper hand.  In a battlefield hospital, SHE was needed.  The men needed her to advance their position, which in this instance was getting better, gaining some comfort, a simple touch.  In those other situations - with the Duke, Dougal, Colum, BJR - she needed something from the men.  

2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

One of the big things I read into Jamie’s frustration with Claire working at the hospital was some sexual frustration. Hear me out- those 2 are off kilter all because they aren’t connecting in the bedroom ( with good reason). This is usually where they talk over everything and Jamie is staying out night & day to avoid her advances I think ( also to work their cause). They work best together! It seemed ooc for Jamie because usually he is so proud of her medical skills. 

This makes sense.  They are physical, emotional people.  When the physical is taken away, other facets of their relationship suffer.  

Edited March 30, 2021 by SassAndSnacks

[gingerella]

Something I forgot to mention above is I was looking closely for that ring that Claire is looking for when she lands back at the Stones again, the one with the missing center stone. I do see Jamie wearing it on his right pinky finger IIRC, it is there. So this leads me to believe even more that it's a Jacobite ring, with some secret code that denotes that he is working for the Rebellion and reinstatement of BPC. I mentioned this in the S02E01 thread when we were talking about that ring. Let me see if I can find an example of this:

If you want to read more about the above, here is a link to the 2019 article: https://www.scotsman.com/regions/emerald-ring-jacobite-secret-service-549064

They were made in different styles but you can see how a center stone such as the one above could have been what is missing from Claire's ring at the Stones. Also, I noticed in the episode that Jamie's ring doesn't appear to be an emerald like this courier's ring, but it could have been another type of Jacobite ring like examples the below:

A portrait ring of BPC painted on enamel or porcelain, set under rock crystal

A signet ring with an intaglio seal with a Jacobite motto on it:

I feel that one of these Jacobite rings is what Jamie is wearing, it would give him entree into the BPC world without being questioned.  And if he does indeed send Claire away just before the Battle at Culloden, it might make sense that he gives her this ring as a reminder of his love (even though he tells her to forget him) and also because he knows if the battle does not go in their favor, as he already knows is likely from Claire, he will be killed on sight if seen with such a ring on as that would be considered treason towards King George. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I do see Jamie wearing it on his right pinky finger IIRC, it is there.

In S02E01 it is cousin Jared who is shown wearing a ring like you've pictured on his pinky finger. It's about 47 minutes into the show (12 minute before the end).  Jamie is not wearing any rings on his good hand and the other is still wrapped for healing. 

But I caught a glimpse of a ring on Jamie's pinky in S02E02. It really was a glimpse. It was when the Letter of introduction to BPC from cousin Jared arrived—around 15 minutes into the episode. But then it appears more fully in the scene of first meeting with BPC in the brothel. 

I doubt he wore it in S01. It would be too dangerous. Perhaps it was in the box of Jamie's keepsakes that Jenny asked Claire to give Jamie? 

Thanks @gingerella for the heads-up of where to look. 

 

[gingerella]

6 hours ago, Anothermi said:

In S02E01 it is cousin Jared who is shown wearing a ring like you've pictured on his pinky finger. It's about 47 minutes into the show (12 minute before the end).  Jamie is not wearing any rings on his good hand and the other is still wrapped for healing. 

But I caught a glimpse of a ring on Jamie's pinky in S02E02. It really was a glimpse. It was when the Letter of introduction to BPC from cousin Jared arrived—around 15 minutes into the episode. But then it appears more fully in the scene of first meeting with BPC in the brothel. 

I doubt he wore it in S01. It would be too dangerous. Perhaps it was in the box of Jamie's keepsakes that Jenny asked Claire to give Jamie? 

Thanks @gingerella for the heads-up of where to look. 

 

I finally got a good look at the ring during Jamie's chess game with the Finance Minister, it is the Fraser family crest of a stag, though the real Fraser crest is a stag's head and Jamie's ring has a full standing stag - mystery solved! It seems he must have gotten it at Lallybroch but why would the prison return that, it seems something they'd steal and sell. If anyone has the fortitude to go back to the Wentworth scene where the prison warden gives Claire Jamie's personal effects, maybe they can see if the ring is in that box, along with the carved snake. That said, it looks solid so it's odd that the seal portion would be missing when Claire lands at the Stones, I'm still puzzled by that part.

[Anothermi]

33 minutes ago, gingerella said:

If anyone has the fortitude to go back to the Wentworth scene where the prison warden gives Claire Jamie's personal effects, maybe they can see if the ring is in that box, along with the carved snake.

I'd checked that out after I posted above. Nothing. We only got a peek into a portion of the box of Jamie's things. It wasn't full.

• the snake, of course
• his clan pin/ brooch
• some twine or fishing line
• a knife barely visible under everything else
• 2 greyish coloured thingies that I couldn't figure out but wondered if the were for starting a fire

That's about it. Nothing round like a ring. It is a mystery where the Fraser ring came from—unless Murtagh was keeping it safe for Jamie from some time before? They didn't have time to pack anything it seemed.  Just head for the boat and set sail.