S06.E01: The Red Woman

[stillshimpy]

I thought Mel was going to turn out to be a reanimated burn victim, just because in the books she radiates heat.  

 

Mel's POV was the biggest surprise to me, because she's so sincere.  I think the scene where Show Mel takes off the necklace and she's a withered crone wasn't taking her out of the running.  I think it's something else that the Show decide to adopt from the books.  Mel's faith seemingly has kept her going for a long time, I thought she was simply crushed and saddened.  

 

Something is bringing Jon back.   

 

 

 

Only death can pay for life.  I'm hoping if Jon resurrects on the funeral pyre in a parallel to Dany's Mother of Dragons moment, that Ollie will be filling the role of Mirri Maaz Dhur.  I'm afraid it might be Ghost though.

 

Two things about that:  When the Show was concentrating so much on Ghost's reaction and his reaction was heartbreak vs.  "I'm gonna kill all y'all, fuckers!"  I sincerely thought for a moment that the show was going to introduce the "Jon's a Warg too!" stuff this season.   The other thing was that I'm not sure if it is having read the source material or what, but I really feel like the show improved their depiction of the Men of the Night's Watch.   That scene where everyone draws their swords was actually a little moving, as was the scene where some men reacted to the news that Alliser Thorne had Jon killed did so as if they were in possession of something resembling ethics and honor.  

 

Again, maybe it's just because I now know to look for it, but I was startled that there were two scenes of the Men of the Wall where essentially no one behaved like a cannibalistic rapist.   Stabbing Jon also apparently gave Ollie's actor a case of the Bran's because he's at least six inches taller now.  

 

I loved the scene where Tyrion tries to give woman a coin and she think he wants to eat her baby.  On this show it's at least a little surprising that she didn't hand the tyke over with a salt shaker, because good parenting on this show is not exactly the norm.  However, I feel like I missed something.  

 

When did Varys show back up?  Great to see him, I just thought he was last seen losing Tyrion in a Brothel.  

Edited April 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Greta]

Eh, maybe?  Still seems a completely unrealistic way for anyone to act in the situation. 1) Even if Jaime doesn't want to take his wrath out on the innocent Trystane (which Cersei would certainly have no problem with), I still don't see how they just calmly sail on home when his daughter is murdered WITHIN SIGHT of the murderers.  I guess maybe he figures he'll sail home and come back with an army since he and Bronn alone can't do anything? But, of course, in the scene we saw between him and Cersei he gives no hint that he even suspects murder, so is it possible he doesn't even KNOW she was murdered?  Jaime is merciful and soft-hearted and times but not usually stupid.  But even if he were in this case you know Cersei would be screaming (literally) bloody murder all over the place because she's never trusted the Martells.  So it just seems weird to me that they're all taking this so calmly.  Of course, next week may prove different.

 

Secondly, if I were the Sand Snakes planning a coup and wanted to get rid of the heir to the throne, I'd put him on a boat with my enemies' princess, right before we assassinated her and dust off my hands.  Let my enemies do the rest. Or at least keep him hostage in exile while we take over.  Seems unnecessary to chase him all the way across a continent to put a spear in the back of his head immediately.

 

So, still, some serious narrative disfluency even if it can be plausibly explained.

 

Trystane's assassination actually made the most sense to me.  Even if Ellaria is right and the entire country of Dorne hates Doran for his inaction, killing Trystane might be a bridge too far for many Dornish since he hadn't really done anything himself. If he died in Kings Landing, it's easy to blame the Lannisters for it. Obara and Nym setting sail right after the finale to carry out this part of the plan doesn't really require the fanwanking that a lot of the rest of that plot does. 

[proserpina65]

two thousand years from now the dominant faith of Westeros will recount how Saints Davos, Edd and Tormund protected the Lord Jon Snow's body during the three days before his resurrection).

 

All hail St. Edd!

[Eyes High]

On Shireen: I thought I read an interview with Liam Cunningham circa the end of Season 5 where he suggested that Davos on some level was aware that something bad would happen to Shireen if he left her behind, whether it was logic or intuition, which is why Davos all but begged Stannis to allow him to take Shireen with him. 

 

I can buy Davos being upset about the manner of Shireen's death if and when he finds out about it, but I doubt he'd be shocked. Davos knew Shireen wasn't safe with Stannis, but Stannis gave him a direct order and he obeyed it, as opposed to trying to sneak Shireen out the way he once snuck Gendry out. 

 

Trystane's assassination actually made the most sense to me.

Killing any potential challengers preemptively, including heirs, is a standard MO for any power grab. That's why Oberyn's beloved Elia and her children met their end, in fact.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[benteen]

The woman thinking Tyrion was going to eat her baby worked for me because that's exactly what would happen to Tyrion in the books.  Always looked at by the smallfolk and peasants in the worst possible way.

[WearyTraveler]

I see blue eyes in Jon's future when he comes back.  How else would the White Walkers be defeated or controlled unless there is someone on their level to fight them?

 

Blue eyes and a flaming sword would be pretty bad ass...

 

Dragons, Valeryan steel, dragon glass... Plus Azor Ahai was a man, not a Walker (according to the book's lore) and he managed it.  I don't think Jon needs to be a Walker to defeat the Walkers.

 

Plus, in the books we already have Coldhands, who seems to be a wight that didn't completely turn, for some reason.  I doubt the books will have two Coldhands characters.  And while D&D certainly take plenty of liberties with the story, I don't think they'd do a deviation as large for a character as important as Jon.  His story has been one of the most faithful to the books (with some exceptions) so far.

Edited April 25, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[stillshimpy]

On Shireen: I thought I read an interview with Liam Cunningham circa the end of Season 5 where he suggested that Davos on some level was aware that something bad would happen to Shireen if he left her behind, whether it was logic or intuition, which is why Davos all but begged Stannis to allow him to take Shireen with him.

 

I thought the actor did play it as if he was very apprehensive about leaving Shireen, but I also thought that part of the reason he didn't ask is he assume they're all dead.  The fact that Mel came back to the Castle at all would suggest that Stannis was a goner and god knows it's not like the Boltons would hesitate to slaughter a child.  

 

.  Always looked at by the smallfolk and peasants in the worst possible way.

 

That's a good point.  I'm always so thrilled to see a scene with Tyrion where he isn't sodden drunk though. 

 

The residents of King's Landing are being remarkably chill about Cersei's non-speaking, clearly some kind of zombie Kings Guard.   Not, mind you, that there's much they could do about him, but it did make me wonder if the High Sparrow was going rouse the villagers against the reanimated, armored thing.  I mean, I can't imagine that The Faith is going to come down on the side of being Zombie Positive.   Just wondered what he might be doing in trying to seemingly sincerely reach out to Margaery.   It's just he might have an actual interest in getting her back into the castle as an ally.  Not that there's anything she could do against Mountainstein but he can't be okay with the Lannisters being in power either.  

[SeanC]

When did Varys show back up?  Great to see him, I just thought he was last seen losing Tyrion in a Brothel.  

He appeared in Meereen in Tyrion's last scene in 510.

[stillshimpy]

He appeared in Meereen in Tyrion's last scene in 510.

 

Aha!  Thank you.  I was blind with fury by then so I guess I didn't notice.  

[SeanC]

On Shireen: I thought I read an interview with Liam Cunningham circa the end of Season 5 where he suggested that Davos on some level was aware that something bad would happen to Shireen if he left her behind, whether it was logic or intuition, which is why Davos all but begged Stannis to allow him to take Shireen with him. 

 

I can buy Davos being upset about the manner of Shireen's death if and when he finds out about it, but I doubt he'd be shocked. Davos knew Shireen wasn't safe with Stannis, but Stannis gave him a direct order and he obeyed it, as opposed to trying to sneak Shireen out the way he once snuck Gendry out. 

I think he knew on some level, but consciously, he didn't, and I believe Cunningham said as much.  There's no way that Davos would have consciously abandoned Shireen to that.

[kcbuckeye2]

Not sure if this was already brought up, but I haven't read the entire thread. 

 

How did the two sand snakes get on the boat to kill Trystane? 

When we last saw them in S05, Ellaria was on the dock with all three SS taking the antidote to the poison, while Trystane sailed off with Jamie, Bronn, and soon to be dead Myrcella.  We know that the boat did not turn around to go back, so when it arrived to KL to offload the body, there should not have been any SS on the boat. 

So when Trystane turned around to see the two SS there to kill him, his first question should have been "How the hell did you get here?"

[RedheadZombie]

There's a few things I've been pondering over.

 

I won't root for Cersei, but I can feel for her at times.  LH can really manipulate me with her sad faces.  And there has to be something positive about her love and parenting if two out of her three children were sweet and kind.  They didn't get that from Robert.  I also appreciate how self-reflecting Cersei can be.  She knows she's an awful person, and she's known it for years.  She also (presumably) allowed Tommen and Myrcella to be their kind selves, and wasn't disappointed they didn't take after the Lannisters.

 

So what's the deal with the snow underneath Jon's body?  It seemed black as if it was burned.  Davos noticed it and was possibly intrigued, but it didn't seem to be a WTF moment for him.

 

I was so moved by Davos and Jon's friends protecting his body that it didn't occur to me until later to wonder why.  Jon's dead, they don't seem to believe there's even a tiny chance that he can be resurrected, and they know what happens to dead bodies at the wall.  Yet they're willing to die to guard the body.  Why?  And now we're supposed to believe that the wildlings are willing to die to protect a corpse?  It made sense at the time because it seems obvious that Jon will resurrect somehow, but that's not known to the characters.  And since they knew they were going to die fighting, Jon's body would still be taken. 

[SeanC]

Not sure if this was already brought up, but I haven't read the entire thread. 

 

How did the two sand snakes get on the boat to kill Trystane? 

When we last saw them in S05, Ellaria was on the dock with all three SS taking the antidote to the poison, while Trystane sailed off with Jamie, Bronn, and soon to be dead Myrcella.  We know that the boat did not turn around to go back, so when it arrived to KL to offload the body, there should not have been any SS on the boat. 

So when Trystane turned around to see the two SS there to kill him, his first question should have been "How the hell did you get here?"

They (presumably) took another boat to KL and then boarded Trystane's.

[Bookmistress]

The woman thinking Tyrion was going to eat her baby worked for me because that's exactly what would happen to Tyrion in the books. Always looked at by the smallfolk and peasants in the worst possible way.

I thought that too, but once Varys mentioned his terrible Valyrian it made me wonder if one day he's going to misunderstand or mis-speak something more vital than "Here's money for baby food."

[stillshimpy]

I thought that too, but once Varys mentioned his terrible Valyrian it made me wonder if one day he's going to misunderstand or mis-speak something more vital than "Here's money for baby food."

 

That or it is also just marking the difference between his life as part of the ruling entity in Mereen vs. in King's Landing.  Tyrion always sort of paved his way with Lannister gold.    Recognized as being powerful because of that.   

 

Basically it sort of seemed like his calling card being rejected, if that makes sense.  

[Winter Rose]

Wow! For all the complaining at the show's unfair treatment of Stannis, I don't think it compares to how bad they've butchered Dorne, and Ellaria as a character. I've given the side-eye ever since learning Arianne was cut from the show but while the storyline was laughably bad last year, there was at least hope for it with Doran there biding his time. But now they've pretty much rendered House Martell useless and left us with the worst parts of the Dorne storyline from last year: Ellaria 2.0 and the Sand Snake caricatures.

 

Other than that I actually liked the episode and am at least hopeful this season will be better than S5 (although I'm not sure it could get much worse). I think they're going to drag the Jon Snow thing out as long as possible. For one thing, if this season reveals R+L=J, I feel like we'd have to get that in order for Jon rising a Targaryen to make sense within the narrative. Also, since no one's been able to shut up about Jon Snow since last season, that's free publicity right there (not that the show was lacking for it) and I'm sure D&D would love to milk that for as long as possible.

 

I'm so glad we saw Ghost again. I also loved the final scene with Mel taking off her necklace and seeing the old woman underneath. I'm thinking that may play a part in reviving Jon, should she be the one to do it. But this is the most interested I've been in her character.

 

And I'm thrilled at Brienne and Pod meeting up with Sansa and Theon. It finally shows progress in Brienne's storyline and maybe, just maybe, we can see Sansa and Theon do something that's not being tortured.

[Advance35]

After watching Davos tonight I am more convinced that Sansa needs him as Politics teacher and not Petyr. Davos made mistakes of course, some of them very big mistakes, but I think he is a good man and he know how to deal with almost every kind of people. And I think he could help her to inspire people. It seems like Petyr wants teach her how to manipulate and that is wrong.

 

Really?!?!?!  I feel like Davos would be useless amidst real players.  Inspiring people is all well and good, but I feel like the Onion Knight would be cut into pieces if he had to get into the political ring with just about anyone in Kings Landing.   LF, Varys, Olenna, Tywin, Margaery, Tyrion.   Ned Stark was honorable but he didn't know how to deal with dishonorable people.   And it doesn't mean just slaughtering villages, I consider the Tyrells dishonorable, secret assasinations, switching sides left and right.   LF can teach her how to deal with people like himself much better then Davos Seaworth IMO.

 

I won't root for Cersei, but I can feel for her at times.  LH can really manipulate me with her sad faces.  And there has to be something positive about her love and parenting if two out of her three children were sweet and kind.  They didn't get that from Robert.

 

Maybe I'm getting the book and show confused.  I always considered Cersei the problem.  Robert was absentee and/or uninvolved, like most of the parents in the Westerosi world, Cersei was/is something else entirely.  Maybe it's because VIA the novels we've been in her head.

[piequinn35]

Of course we have to see Mel's tits whenever she is on this show,

and she likes sleeping naked ;)

[madam magpie]

Oops! Wrong thread.

Edited April 25, 2016 by madam magpie

[Haleth]

I won't root for Cersei, but I can feel for her at times.  LH can really manipulate me with her sad faces.  And there has to be something positive about her love and parenting if two out of her three children were sweet and kind.  They didn't get that from Robert.  I also appreciate how self-reflecting Cersei can be.  She knows she's an awful person, and she's known it for years.  She also (presumably) allowed Tommen and Myrcella to be their kind selves, and wasn't disappointed they didn't take after the Lannisters.

 

I credit the septas and maesters who raised Myrcella and Tommen while Cersei was busy spoiling Joffrey.

[Pachengala]

Regarding Sansa and Pod, didn't Sansa run into Brienne and Pod traveling together at that inn last season? So it wouldn't have been a shock to see him with Brienne now.

I'm with you, elzin. There were parts of the episode I enjoyed, but overall, I feel like the show's gonna be a clunker now that we're basically off-book. I shouldn't be surprised; the show runners have not been adept so far with their attempts to go off-book. It's still disappointing though. For his faults, GRRM has created a nuanced, complicated, fascinating world--I mean, I root for Cersei in the books! That's lost on the Ds, as rape-obsessed and binary (good or evil! Madonna or whore!) as they are.

[Shanna Marie]

I credit the septas and maesters who raised Myrcella and Tommen while Cersei was busy spoiling Joffrey.

That's my thinking, as well. Cersei's devotion pretty much ruined Joffrey. Maybe he was also born as a psychopath, but her acting like he was the center of the universe certainly didn't help matters. She may have loved the other two, but it doesn't seem like she paid much attention to them. Therefore, they stood a better chance of growing up to be decent human beings.

 

Regarding Sansa and Pod, didn't Sansa run into Brienne and Pod traveling together at that inn last season? So it wouldn't have been a shock to see him with Brienne now.

That's what I thought. And I didn't feel like it was a slight against her that Pod had to cue her. She was in shock, possibly barely remembering her own name at that point, and all it took was the one cue before she was able to get through the rest of it. It's like freezing on stage and going totally blank, and all it takes is to get cued one word and the rest of the entire play comes back. Plus, it was nice to see her getting positive encouragement, someone being there to back her, in even a tiny thing like that. She wasn't being talked down to, criticized, or manipulated, for a change, just getting help in getting through something.

[Haleth]

Something is bringing Jon back.

 

Maybe this guy.

Don't forget the chocolate coating.

[Lamima]

Also, Sansa better get a cup'o Moon Tea pronto.

[Heathrowe99]

I felt the lack of GRRM at the end of the last scene. There's this dramatic transformation of Melisandre and then she just shuffles off to bed and gets under the covers. I guess she needs a nappy.

 

GRRM is KNOWN for his page turning cliff hanger endings. It would have been better if it ended with her in front of the mirror. Or shuffling over to Jon's body to do something unknown to him. But instead she just got in bed. Zzzzzzzzzzz...........

[VCRTracking]

The shock of her true self was enough for me and a lot of people.

 

I don't mind arrogance if a person can back it up. So far the Sand Snakes haven't.

Edited April 25, 2016 by VCRTracking

[WearyTraveler]

Not sure if this was already brought up, but I haven't read the entire thread. 

 

How did the two sand snakes get on the boat to kill Trystane? 

When we last saw them in S05, Ellaria was on the dock with all three SS taking the antidote to the poison, while Trystane sailed off with Jamie, Bronn, and soon to be dead Myrcella.  We know that the boat did not turn around to go back, so when it arrived to KL to offload the body, there should not have been any SS on the boat. 

So when Trystane turned around to see the two SS there to kill him, his first question should have been "How the hell did you get here?"

 

 

They (presumably) took another boat to KL and then boarded Trystane's.

 

Yeah, and there are fast ships and slow ships.  That galley where Jaimie, Myrcella and Trystane were looked pretty heavy, so, it was probably on the slow side.  For all we know the Sand Snakes took a lighter, faster boat, and were actually waiting for Trystane at KL.  That wasn't the part that bothered me about the whole Dorne storyline.

Edited April 25, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[mac123x]

I was so moved by Davos and Jon's friends protecting his body that it didn't occur to me until later to wonder why.  Jon's dead, they don't seem to believe there's even a tiny chance that he can be resurrected, and they know what happens to dead bodies at the wall.  Yet they're willing to die to guard the body.  Why?  And now we're supposed to believe that the wildlings are willing to die to protect a corpse?  It made sense at the time because it seems obvious that Jon will resurrect somehow, but that's not known to the characters.  And since they knew they were going to die fighting, Jon's body would still be taken. 

 

The staging was unclear, but what I think happened was:

1.  Davos spotted Jon lying in the snow.

2.  Davos, Edd, and some extras grabbed Jon and hustled him inside, noting the "TRAITOR" sign.

3.  Inside, Edd checked for vitals, and realized that Jon was dead. 

4.  Everyone In the room realized that they were in the middle of a coup, and as Jon-loyalists, they were probably marked for death already, and needed to defend themselves.  Edd got Ghost,

5.  They got vengeful, and Davos convinced them to get Tormond and friends to help with the vengeance.

 

So basically they weren't defending Jon's body.  Circumstances just put them locked up in a room with Jon's body.

[GrailKing]

Regarding Sansa needing help with the words to Brienne and Pod helping her, it's damn realistic to me, she jumped a wall, she's running for her life from pursuers with dogs, she is wading almost neck high across a freezing running river, she's freezing,hungry, surrounded suddenly by wild dogs then rescued; but she manages to stand tall and when again offered a vow of protection she knows the words to say but her mind is racing so she stumbles on a portion of it, normal thing to me, once Pod helped with a couple of words she was able to complete the rest herself.

[dr pepper]

This episode left me wondering two things most of all.  Wouldn't Sansa be very familiar with Pod already from her time married to Tyrion?  Are we ever going to get a look at Jon's ability to warg on the show?  Just occurred to me, if Arya stumbles into an ability to warg it could give a whole new meaning to the Many Faced God.  

 

In the book, her blindness seems to bring out her mindriding abilities. In fact, she's able to do it across the sea and find her mother's body through the eyes of her direwolf.

[WearyTraveler]

I felt the lack of GRRM at the end of the last scene. There's this dramatic transformation of Melisandre and then she just shuffles off to bed and gets under the covers. I guess she needs a nappy.

 

GRRM is KNOWN for his page turning cliff hanger endings. It would have been better if it ended with her in front of the mirror. Or shuffling over to Jon's body to do something unknown to him. But instead she just got in bed. Zzzzzzzzzzz...........

 

I took an acting class once and one of the scenes I had to do involved a character who appeared to be strong slowly becoming more and more vulnerable as she had a conversation with another character, effectively revealing herself as the conversation progressed.  The coach's suggestion was for me to start shedding coat, jacket, hat, scarf, and jewelry as the scene went on, accompanying the soul baring with actual physical baring (it wasn't suggested that I get naked, though :D ).

 

I can see how this Melisandre scene is similar to that. She had been unwavering in her faith and her belief in the Lord of Light, even when things didn't go as planned (see Blackwater).  But now she's lost Stannis, who she truly believed to be Azor Ahai reborn, apparently, and when she comes to the Wall she finds Jon dead; a person she had actually seen waging battle at Winterfell.  It's all crumbling for her.  She's tired of carrying the glamour, she's tired of the illusions, and her God seems to be sending her false visions.  I totally bought it.

 

I also agree with poster upthread that it would be the best possible outcome if Jon resurrects on his own, so to speak, and this is what gives Mel her faith back.  It would be even better if Mel recited the whole Azor Ahai prophecy as Jon is coming out of the flames and her faith starts returning.  She can start in a low voice and increase the volume as the resurrection takes place (what do you mean it's too dramatic? It's just perfect! Perfect, I tell you!).

Edited April 25, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[RedheadZombie]

While Melisandre is having her crisis of conscience and self-doubt, I'd like to think the sounds of Shireen's screams are echoing in her head in an endless loop.

[OhOkayWhat]

The staging was unclear, but what I think happened was:

1.  Davos spotted Jon lying in the snow.

2.  Davos, Edd, and some extras grabbed Jon and hustled him inside, noting the "TRAITOR" sign.

3.  Inside, Edd checked for vitals, and realized that Jon was dead. 

4.  Everyone In the room realized that they were in the middle of a coup, and as Jon-loyalists, they were probably marked for death already, and needed to defend themselves.  Edd got Ghost,

5.  They got vengeful, and Davos convinced them to get Tormond and friends to help with the vengeance.

 

So basically they weren't defending Jon's body.  Circumstances just put them locked up in a room with Jon's body.

Yes, I agree!

[ACW]

This page includes a picture of the note Doran was reading (which would have been really useful for the audience to read in the show).  It's from Jaime, and among other things, says that he's sending his son back to Dorne for his own safety.  So, can we assume that he was killed when he was almost back in Dorne, despite the editing making it seem otherwise (and despite the fact that he was painting a funeral eye-rock)?

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne

[VCRTracking]

Someone posted this on Reddit's Live discussion thread of the episode and I think it actually works:

 

The Red Woman is an ancient witch with very real powers. She has taken off her necklace before - in season 2, whilst taking a bath, but she was only seen by Selyse, a devout follower and Stannis' wife. Selyse sees Mel's true form as a hag - but we as viewers see her only as the sexual creature she takes the form of, a smoke to hide the real her. It's why Selyse acts quite strangely, as though she cannot look away but does not wish to set her eyes upon the Red Woman.

The ruby choker could be a large part of her power, though not necessarily entirely. The camera also panned over a potion bottle and we have seen her use these before.

 

[Heathrowe99]

I buy Melisandre's transformation-I think she is the best actress on the show, by the way. I just don't understand why it ended with her getting in bed. I suppose I will have to wait until next week to see if that action meant anything or if it was just odd stage direction.

[Avaleigh]

One change I have to admit liking is Cersei telling Jaime about the prophecy. I believe that the prophecy was a retcon and it never made any sense to me that Cersei wouldn't share that with her twin especially at that age. I could believe her keeping it to herself if we didn't see her talk to not one but two characters who are virtual strangers to her. I could just about buy her telling Qyburn but to tell Taena too? That struck me as ridiculously unbelievable so I thought having Cersei finally tell Jaime about it in this episode now that she's down to one kid made a lot of sense.

 

Another thing that occurred to me is that Jaime doesn't look at Cersei's hair with any curiosity. I'm not expecting her hair to be the first thing on his mind since they're dealing with the death of their daughter, but it did strike me as odd that Jaime doesn't seem to have been told about the walk yet. I'm curious as to whether or not this is going to be on his mind during that visit with the High Sparrow. 

I think he has a date with Robert Strong that won't go well.

 

What makes you think she's off the board?  I think she's battling a crisis of faith but will come back to herself in time to do the job.

I think Loras has a date with Lancel and Lancel will surprise everyone by being the winner. 

 

I agree that there's every reason to think that Melisandre will be part of Jon's resurrection. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Avaleigh

[dr pepper]

Ok, having read the comments and thinking about it, here's what i think would have worked better.

 

Sansa starts the recite the words of a liege accepting service. She stumbles, uncertain. Pod starts to cue her, but Theon puts a hand on his arm and shakes his head grimly, shutting him up. Sansa stumbles a little more, then remembers. She finishes her oath, her voice getting stronger and more confident as she does, and by the last sentence she sounds like her father.

 

No one notices a nearby weirwood opening its eyes.

[dr pepper]

Also, Sansa better get a cup'o Moon Tea pronto.

 

Good point. I think she's ready to strangle any septon who'd tell her she was sinning.

[OhOkayWhat]

Really?!?!?!  I feel like Davos would be useless amidst real players.  Inspiring people is all well and good, but I feel like the Onion Knight would be cut into pieces if he had to get into the political ring with just about anyone in Kings Landing.   LF, Varys, Olenna, Tywin, Margaery, Tyrion.   Ned Stark was honorable but he didn't know how to deal with dishonorable people.   And it doesn't mean just slaughtering villages, I consider the Tyrells dishonorable, secret assasinations, switching sides left and right.   LF can teach her how to deal with people like himself much better then Davos Seaworth IMO

 

Remember he comes from Flea Bottom where probably to detect a lie is a very serious matter. And then he became a smuggler, I do not think in that  world of deception, bribery and corruption he only met liars among the poor people. I think he also met liars among the rich and nobility, people wanting to have more money and to ascend the ladder even if they already had gold and titles. In Braavos where it seems he lived (or at least visited) you can find rich people from Westeros and Essos too. And he seems to know almost all kind of people.

 

I imagine Davos talking just 10 minutes with Petyr and going back to Sansa to say: "that man? do you really think he is working to help you?". Petyr is very dangerous because he can teach you stuff...to use you as a pawn. Inflate your self-confidence.....to manipulate you later.

 

Sansa needs to know how to detect a lie and a liar. As I said, she does not need to lie. She does not need to manipulate, she needs to inspire.

[Alapaki]

Ok, good.  I came here strictly to see if I had missed something with the whole Trystane thing, and I'm glad to see it isn't just me who was like, "Uh, . . .what?"  I thought he was on the boat with Jaime and Myrcella as well.  And I was kinda looking forward this season to seeing that whole thing play out, whether they would hold him hostage now, or do something to him in retaliation.  Or just seeing how Cersei would react to having him in the mix.  But instead he's just . . . hanging around . . . somewhere?  And gets killed by his own countrywomen?

 

 

I'm not sure how to link them all here, but I googled photos of scenes of Myrcella and Jamie and scenes of Trystane last night, and the window panes in the rooms were identical.  So I'm pretty sure he was on the boat.  I think the question is how the Sand Snakes get on the boat, and how Trystane is still free after Marcella dies. Possibly he's on "boat arrest" in the Kings Landing Harbor?

 

As far as Melisandre, I'm nearly certain I'm over-reading here, but I read a lot more into that final scene (especially since for all that happened last night the episode is named after her, and she probably had the least screen time of all the major characters that were shown).

 

Maybe the choker not only makes her look young, but keeps her young, and that by taking it off and putting herself to bed she was in a sense committing suicide. 

[Audreythe2nd]

 

I also hate everything to do with Jamie and his relationship with Cersei. It appears they're going to paint that pairing as true love instead of toxic as it should be. I don't know that Jamie will ever get a decent redemption arc in the show.

 

Granted I'm a huge Jaime fan, but I think fans are seeing his trajectory on the show all wrong (ie. very pessimistically). The remainder of his "redemption" has been delayed until this season, but that first scene with Jaime and Cersei (a great one btw - very well acted) couldn't have made me more convinced that everything is going to end totally ironically for them at the end of the season. Cersei saying that she thinks the two of them need to keep close, Jaime saying they are the only ones who matter that it's just the two of them, and to fuck prophecy... lol. They are quite clearly telegraphing that by the end of the season Cersei will probably still be trying to keep her claws in him (because him and Tommen are basically all she has left) while he will basically have dipped out of KL, no more "just the two of us." Which is what happens in the books anyway. He hasn't even found out about the reason for her walk, the fact that she was the one who empowered the Faith, the weirdness with Frankengregor, etc. etc. That's where this is going, clearly.

 

ETA: The reintroduction of the Dothraki was really, really good I thought.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[Maximum Taco]

Regarding Sansa needing help with the words to Brienne and Pod helping her, it's damn realistic to me, she jumped a wall, she's running for her life from pursuers with dogs, she is wading almost neck high across a freezing running river, she's freezing,hungry, surrounded suddenly by wild dogs then rescued; but she manages to stand tall and when again offered a vow of protection she knows the words to say but her mind is racing so she stumbles on a portion of it, normal thing to me, once Pod helped with a couple of words she was able to complete the rest herself.

 

Not to mention (IIRC) this is the first and only oath of fealty she has ever had to accept.

 

She may have been taught the words, or heard her father, mother or brother say them, but hearing and learning something and doing it are different things. Some people just go blank when things are real.

[OhOkayWhat]

Not to mention (IIRC) this is the first and only oath of fealty she has ever had to accept.

 

She may have been taught the words, or heard her father, mother or brother say them, but hearing and learning something and doing it are different things. Some people just go blank when things are real.

 

I agree. And it made the scene more beautiful. Interestingly a byproduct of the scene is that  it seems a few people are starting to ship (if they did not before) Sansa and Pod......and you know what?. It makes sense somehow.

Edited April 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Alapaki]

Really?!?!?!  I feel like Davos would be useless amidst real players.  Inspiring people is all well and good, but I feel like the Onion Knight would be cut into pieces if he had to get into the political ring with just about anyone in Kings Landing.   LF, Varys, Olenna, Tywin, Margaery, Tyrion.   Ned Stark was honorable but he didn't know how to deal with dishonorable people.   And it doesn't mean just slaughtering villages, I consider the Tyrells dishonorable, secret assasinations, switching sides left and right.   LF can teach her how to deal with people like himself much better then Davos Seaworth IMO.

I think Davos proved his political skills several times. He got away with stuff under Stannis that few others would have, and it was because he knew how to appeal to him.

Likewise, he convinced the Iron Bank to back Stannis against all odds.

Neither Stannis nor the Iron Bank respond to inspiration.

[kittykat]

I think if/when Jon returns that he and Davos will make a great team.   I'm loving this Jon/Davos/Mel/Edd/Tormund team they're teasing us with right now.  I'd back that team any day.

 

I totally believe that Sansa wouldn't remember the oath word for word.  She's running away from flesh eating dogs, presumably suffering from PTSD and FREEZING (although I wonder if Starks don't freeze the same way certain Targaryens don't burn) yeah she's gonna miss a couple of words.  Luckily she had Podrick the ever-so-loyal.

 

I was also amused by the "It is known".  It annoyed me in the books when Jhiqui and Irri repeated it over and over but it was a nice touch to the Dothraki scene.

[Avaleigh]

Jaime & Cersei: I found it charming that Cersei wondered out loud where Myrcella's goodness came from. Grandpa Tytos, would be my first guess. Her Daddy, would be my second. Yes, yes, I know, the Kingslayer threw a kid out a window, he boffs his sister, he's such a bastard...but he loves Tyrion. He rescued him. He loves Cersei with a selfless devotion that knows no limits, and is probably simply incapable yet of seeing that she is cruel and evil and hard. He is always conveniently away from court when Cersei commits her worst actions, and so can give her the benefit of the doubt.  I cried for them in spite of everything.

My thought has always been that Myrcella takes after her grandmother Joanna. We only ever hear good things about Joanna. I suspect that Tommen probably takes after Tytos a bit. 

 

I agree that Jaime seems capable of great love. Not only his devotion to Tyrion but I thought his love for Myrcella was apparent in their brief scenes together. He's also the only guy in the story apart from Ned who has been faithful longterm to the woman he loves.

 

I liked the moment where Cersei acknowledged what a monster she is because it's something that is only barely touched on in the books. I thought it was a good touch too to see her smoothing down the back of her hair because you could see that Cersei is still being tortured by the walk. In earlier episodes on the show, her solar was bright and airy and the drapes weren't partially closed the way they were here. Now, she's sitting alone in the shadows replaying the walk over and over again. In the beginning she was surrounded by various family members and they're each being picked off one by one for various reasons. I thought Lena Headey really hit it out of the park because she was able to say and indicate so much in that first scene without a word of dialogue I think apart from saying her daughter's name.  

[RedheadZombie]

Something that I found questionable - that the Khal Dany encounters knows who Khal Drogo is, knows Drogo died, yet never heard of his wife.  Whether she was described as the most beautiful woman, a witch, or an albino, she was extremely distinctive.  And quite a few Dothraki witnessed Dany walking into the fire and living, along with her dragons hatching. 

 

Then they encounter an albino woman who's beautiful, knows Dothraki, and wears a Dragon wrapped around her neck.  Now I can buy them not knowing about the dragon and fire part, but if Dany ate the horse's heart at a grand gathering of Dothraki, I just don't get how word wouldn't spread about Drogo's Khaleesi.  Also, wouldn't people know her from the golden crown occurrence?

[RedheadZombie]

 She's running away from flesh eating dogs, presumably suffering from PTSD and FREEZING (although I wonder if Starks don't freeze the same way certain Targaryens don't burn) yeah she's gonna miss a couple of words.  Luckily she had Podrick the ever-so-loyal.

 

I read the first chapters of the first book recently.  In Cat's POV, she talks about how her and Ned's bedchamber is built over a natural hot spring, and how she's constantly cold while Ned likes the windows open.  But that can be attributed to where each of them was raised.

[Avaleigh]

Something that I found questionable - that the Khal Dany encounters knows who Khal Drogo is, knows Drogo died, yet never heard of his wife.  Whether she was described as the most beautiful woman, a witch, or an albino, she was extremely distinctive.  And quite a few Dothraki witnessed Dany walking into the fire and living, along with her dragons hatching. 

 

Then they encounter an albino woman who's beautiful, knows Dothraki, and wears a Dragon wrapped around her neck.  Now I can buy them not knowing about the dragon and fire part, but if Dany ate the horse's heart at a grand gathering of Dothraki, I just don't get how word wouldn't spread about Drogo's Khaleesi.  Also, wouldn't people know her from the golden crown occurrence?

Not only that but in the book anybody who was anybody in the Dothraki attended the wedding. He should have at least heard of her IMO. 

 

ETA:

 

The Dothraki who witnessed the birth of the dragons continue to travel with Dany so that explains why the Dothraki didn't hear about the dragons. 

 

No idea though why he wouldn't already know of her or have heard about the crowning of Viserys. Blood might not have been spilled but somebody dying a violent death at Vaes Dothrak is surely a story that would spread fast among the Dothraki. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Avaleigh