The Star Wars Saga

[Cobalt Stargazer]

40 minutes ago, Joe said:

George Lucas looks as happy as ever. As for the Ralph joke, that's fair enough. It's one thing for us fans to mock Ren, but official sources should uphold the official POV.

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but haven't the movies presented Kylo Ren as a spoiled child? Because I think they've showed him as both a serious threat, if only in murdering Han and as a spoiled brat who went into overkill mode firing at what turned out to be a projection of Luke.

[Joe]

40 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but haven't the movies presented Kylo Ren as a spoiled child? Because I think they've showed him as both a serious threat, if only in murdering Han and as a spoiled brat who went into overkill mode firing at what turned out to be a projection of Luke.

Yeah. He's a spoiled child who is actually totally dangerous.

[Ravenya003]

3 hours ago, Joe said:

Yeah. He's a spoiled child who is actually totally dangerous.

Agreed. I think he's a great villain BECAUSE he's a spoiled child. He embodies the banality of evil in a way that no other villain has in recent years, and if Disney is somehow doing this all accidentally then colour me baffled. 

That said, I refuse to analyse an off-handed comment too much. It doesn't even make clear who said "no" to the joke in the first place. 

[Luckylyn]

I remember one youtube commenter saying that Kylo had a hero’s background and Rey had a villian’s background.  That it made it more interesting that he’s a villian because he’s had every good opportunity and still turned out evil while Rey had nothing but still chose good.   Kylo came from a heroic family and had so much love.   He saw the love of his family as a flaw he needed to get rid of because power is ultimately what matters to him.  So, I agree he comes off as a petculant brat whose power allows him to do serious damage as he seeks his selfish goals.  He doesn’t care about any ideology and just wants to be the most powerful person in control of everything.  The trilogy started to push the idea that Kylo’s choices were becasue of  Snoke’s influence, but The Last Jedi eliminated that excuse when Kylo killed Snoke and made it clear he just wants to be the most powerful.  There is no tragic sob story in his past to somehow make his choices understandable which I think makes him a more interesting villian.  In real life people who came from good families grow up to do inexplicably evil things which confuses people because I think society wants to believe that something horrible had to happen to make a person do something horrible.  Sometimes, there is no pat explanation, and a person just did something horrific because they simply wanted to. 

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I remember one youtube commenter saying that Kylo had a hero’s background and Rey had a villian’s background.  That it made it more interesting that he’s a villian because he’s had every good opportunity and still turned out evil while Rey had nothing but still chose good.   Kylo came from a heroic family and had so much love.   He saw the love of his family as a flaw he needed to get rid of because power is ultimately what matters to him.  So, I agree he comes off as a petculant brat whose power allows him to do serious damage as he seeks his selfish goals.  He doesn’t care about any ideology and just wants to be the most powerful person in control of everything.  The trilogy started to push the idea that Kylo’s choices were becasue of  Snoke’s influence, but The Last Jedi eliminated that excuse when Kylo killed Snoke and made it clear he just wants to be the most powerful.  There is no tragic sob story in his past to somehow make his choices understandable which I think makes him a more interesting villian.  In real life people who came from good families grow up to do inexplicably evil things which confuses people because I think society wants to believe that something horrible had to happen to make a person do something horrible.  Sometimes, there is no pat explanation, and a person just did something horrific because they simply wanted to. 

 

The Force Awaken initially presents Kylo Ren as a cool, powerful villain with a sympathetic backstory of being corrupted by an evil figure. A clear pastiche of Darth Vader. But then TFA tears down that entire image. It reveals that the man under the mask is just an angry young man lashing out because he's frustrated and afraid he's not as powerful as his legendary family before him. His angry tantrums are played as comedy rather than a show of real power. He has every chance to do the right thing and be good. He speaks of feeling the pull of the light. He's away from Snoke. His father arrives to reach out to him and offer him redemption, and he rejects it out of his selfish desire and jealousy and murders Han Solo. He tries to corrupt Rey because, if he can't match her natural gifts, then he wants to use her instead. Rey sees through this and kicks his ass in the climax of the film.

Kylo Ren is not sympathetic in TFA, he's pathetic. He's a deconstruction of the cool/powerful/sympathetic villain and the allure of evil that has previously dominated Star Wars. He's not dangerous because he's strong, he's dangerous because he's weak. I thought it was a brilliant attack on one of the more unsettling things about Star Wars fandom, the Fetishiztion of the Sith/Empire.

The Last Jedi then rebuilds Kylo Ren into the cool, powerful, sympathetic, alluring villain he was presented as at the start of TFA so Rey can be taught a lesson about what happens to pretty girls who try to save bad boys or something even though she clearly rejected him at the end of the previous film.

[ursula]

57 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

 

The Force Awaken initially presents Kylo Ren as a cool, powerful villain with a sympathetic backstory of being corrupted by an evil figure. A clear pastiche of Darth Vader. But then TFA tears down that entire image. It reveals that the man under the mask is just an angry young man lashing out because he's frustrated and afraid he's not as powerful as his legendary family before him. His angry tantrums are played as comedy rather than a show of real power. He has every chance to do the right thing and be good. He speaks of feeling the pull of the light. He's away from Snoke. His father arrives to reach out to him and offer him redemption, and he rejects it out of his selfish desire and jealousy and murders Han Solo. He tries to corrupt Rey because, if he can't match her natural gifts, then he wants to use her instead. Rey sees through this and kicks his ass in the climax of the film.

Kylo Ren is not sympathetic in TFA, he's pathetic. He's a deconstruction of the cool/powerful/sympathetic villain and the allure of evil that has previously dominated Star Wars. He's not dangerous because he's strong, he's dangerous because he's weak. I thought it was a brilliant attack on one of the more unsettling things about Star Wars fandom, the Fetishiztion of the Sith/Empire.

The Last Jedi then rebuilds Kylo Ren into the cool, powerful, sympathetic, alluring villain he was presented as at the start of TFA so Rey can be taught a lesson about what happens to pretty girls who try to save bad boys or something even though she clearly rejected him at the end of the previous film.

I wish I could give your post more Likes.

Edited October 21, 2018 by ursula

[Zuleikha]

The Last Jedi then rebuilds Kylo Ren into the cool, powerful, sympathetic, alluring villain he was presented as at the start of TFA so Rey can be taught a lesson about what happens to pretty girls who try to save bad boys or something even though she clearly rejected him at the end of the previous film.

So much this!

[ICantDoThatDave]

I dunno - I thought Kylo Ren was a lame villain in both movies.  He's not really intimidating or scary, except that maybe one of his temper tantrums might cause a put-upon orderly droid to have to clean up his mess.  When your villain is pathetic, not respected, or easily dispatched by noobs (or in Kylo's case all 3), it generally hurts your story.

I also don't think anyone fetishizes the Dark Side/Sith.  Darth Vader was an iconic, great villain.  Darth Maul was a cool adversary.  But no one really cares about Count Dooku.  Even the Emperor isn't really a fan favorite.  It's just that some bad guys are cool & some aren't.  It's no different than any other franchise.  Loki: cool.  Thanos: awesome.  Ronan the Accuser?  Not so much.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 10/21/2018 at 5:29 PM, Perfect Xero said:

Kylo Ren is not sympathetic in TFA, he's pathetic. He's a deconstruction of the cool/powerful/sympathetic villain and the allure of evil that has previously dominated Star Wars. He's not dangerous because he's strong, he's dangerous because he's weak. I thought it was a brilliant attack on one of the more unsettling things about Star Wars fandom, the Fetishiztion of the Sith/Empire.

I've spoken (Well, typed. Whatever.)  about this at length in various places, because I don't think it's just a fetishization of the Empire, but of villains in general. There's even a meme, which of course I now can't find, that says "Ugly villains are evil, but hot villains are just misunderstood." They were talking about Loki at the time, not Kylo Ren, but it's all of a piece since one's about as much of a little asshole as the other. A dangerous little asshole, maybe, but.....yeah.

[raven]

On 10/21/2018 at 5:29 PM, Perfect Xero said:

The Last Jedi then rebuilds Kylo Ren into the cool, powerful, sympathetic, alluring villain he was presented as at the start of TFA so Rey can be taught a lesson about what happens to pretty girls who try to save bad boys or something even though she clearly rejected him at the end of the previous film.

What happens is she tries to model herself on the famous Luke Skywalker, who she views as arguably redeeming an even greater villain than the pathetic Kylo; kicks Kylo's ass AGAIN; flies in to helps save the day and then clearly rejects him at the end of the movie by slamming a door in his face.

[Ravenya003]

Anyone else seen this?

 

Though to be honest, we can't be 100% sure who or what Kylo Ren is (in the characterization sense) until the last movie comes out. For instance, JJ may have deliberately gone for the above interpretation, though I think the character was born more out of a brainstorming session that ended with: "well we can't top Darth Vader, so let's lean into that by making the next villain a Vader wannabe," than something as self-aware of its audience as the above comic (which would require a certain degree of clairvoyance as to how fandom would react).

And Rian Johnson may have played up on some sympathetic traits in Kylo, though in hindsight I feel it had less to do with a genuine interest in Kylo's psychology, and more to do with misdirecting the audience so he could pull off his GOTCHA! moment when Kylo rejects Rey's olive branch. (And I don't think Rian entirely ignored the "Kylo is an alt-right, MRA, incel, internet troll" take on the character, since after all the franchise's talk on how people are TEMPTED and SEDUCED by the Dark Side, when his big moment to lure Rey over to his way of thinking finally comes, the best he can do is neg her. NEG HER. I have mixed feelings about the entirety of The Last Jedi, but that moment was hilariously f**king perfect.

Love him or hate him (or love to hate him) the fact that he's garnering this much discussion means that SOMETHING went right. It's not like you can say he's boring.

[ICantDoThatDave]

That cartoon implies that not only was The Mouse prescient in regards to some fan reactions to three characters, one of which doesn't even appear until episode VIII, but that Jar Jar Binks was really a great character that people only disliked because the guy in the suit was a black guy.  Then, given all that, they decided to make the main bad guy of the new trilogy whiny & pathetic in order to ridicule a small part of the American fanbase.  I'm not buying it.

[Danny Franks]

6 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

And Rian Johnson may have played up on some sympathetic traits in Kylo, though in hindsight I feel it had less to do with a genuine interest in Kylo's psychology, and more to do with misdirecting the audience so he could pull off his GOTCHA! moment when Kylo rejects Rey's olive branch. (And I don't think Rian entirely ignored the "Kylo is an alt-right, MRA, incel, internet troll" take on the character, since after all the franchise's talk on how people are TEMPTED and SEDUCED by the Dark Side, when his big moment to lure Rey over to his way of thinking finally comes, the best he can do is neg her. NEG HER. I have mixed feelings about the entirety of The Last Jedi, but that moment was hilariously f**king perfect.

I never felt a moment of sympathy for Kylo Ren, and I didn't think Rian Johnson wanted me to. The alt-right, MRA, incel, internet troll take is something I think he was 100% on board with. He gives us a Nice Guy Kylo, who tries to win Rey over with sweet words about how no one can understand her like him, and how he can help her get answers and address her pain, and he's the only person truly being honest with her. And, as you say, the second she rejects him, he essentially says, 'omg, you worthless thot! Your parents were losers and you're a loser!' He might as well have called her fat and ugly too.

I said, from the first time I saw The Force Awakens (pretty sure I said it in my reaction to the movie, on this site) that Kylo Ren is a very contemporary, modern kind of villain. He came off as a school shooter archetype, in that movie. Glorifying evil and worshipping a mass murderer, rejecting his parents, lashing out to hurt them, and to hurt as many people as possible. I'm absolutely convinced this is what JJ Abrams was going for. And between them, he and Rian Johnson have created the most on trend, utterly fitting villain for this generation and, in particular, for the last few years of Western culture.

Kylo Ren is the distilled essence of toxic masculinity, reinforcing the archetype at every turn, with new and disturbing behaviour. The fact some fans still see him as some kind of romantic hero says far more about the way some modern media portrays relationships, than anything else.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Danny Franks

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Kylo Ren is a very contemporary, modern kind of villain. He came off as a school shooter archetype, in that movie. Glorifying evil and worshipping a mass murderer, rejecting his parents, lashing out to hurt them, and to hurt as many people as possible. I'm absolutely convinced this is what JJ Abrams was going for. And between them, he and Rian Johnson ...

I'm nodding and agreeing with everything up to Rian Johnson. 

[Cherpumple]

12 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

said, from the first time I saw The Force Awakens (pretty sure I said it in my reaction to the movie, on this site) that Kylo Ren is a very contemporary, modern kind of villain. He came off as a school shooter archetype, in that movie. Glorifying evil and worshipping a mass murderer, rejecting his parents, lashing out to hurt them, and to hurt as many people as possible. I'm absolutely convinced this is what JJ Abrams was going for. And between them, he and Rian Johnson have created the most on trend, utterly fitting villain for this generation and, in particular, for the last few years of Western culture.

Kylo Ren is the distilled essence of toxic masculinity, reinforcing the archetype at every turn, with new and disturbing behaviour. The fact some fans still see him as some kind of romantic hero says far more about the way some modern media portrays relationships, than anything else.

This is an excellent description of Kylo. There are certainly shades of Anakin in his layers of anger, frustration, and arrogance, but it's presented in a way that feels very instep with current events and mindsets.

As for the fans who see him as a romantic hero, I get it. I'm not saying it's healthy or appropriate, but I get it. The Beauty and the Beast trope is incredibly alluring, especially for young women ("but I can *change* him!"), and he's just one of many in a long line of terrible men who have captured the imagination of fans. I'm well past my impressionable years, and have NEVER been interested in dating a "bad boy" in real life, but when it comes to fiction, I love and root for Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, the Hound from Game of Thrones (even before he became "nice"), and yes, even Kylo. I definitely chalk part of that up to Adam Driver's acting - he really sells those small moments of vulnerability, fear, and loneliness, which make me feel a glimmer of sympathy for him and hope that he gets his shit together and finally starts making the right choices.

I have the same theory about Snape from Harry Potter (which reinforces the ugly vs. hot villain comment above by Cobalt Stargazer). I think he's an interesting and complex guy who did some good things overall, but I always scratch my head at people who gush about what a romantic hero he is, even to the point of having a Snape-themed wedding cake. I absolutely think that a lot of that kind of reaction is down to Alan Rickman's performance, and if Snape had instead looked and acted like Grima Wormtongue from LOTR (which is probably more accurate to the book version TBH), a lot of people would have a different reaction to his undying obsession for Lily Potter.

[Katsullivan]

7 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

This is an excellent description of Kylo. There are certainly shades of Anakin in his layers of anger, frustration, and arrogance, but it's presented in a way that feels very instep with current events and mindsets.

There aren't shades of Anakin, that's the point. There were reasons why Anakin turned Dark - being born a slave, and then conscripted as a child-soldier into something that wasn't much better included. Kylo was the opposite of that.

Kylo is wannabe-Anakin. That's the point. 

 

7 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

As for the fans who see him as a romantic hero, I get it. I'm not saying it's healthy or appropriate, but I get it.

The only thing appealing about Kylo is that he's a fairly attractive white man. If a black man played the same role, no one would have left the cinema shipping Reylo.

[VCRTracking]

Hey what's everybody talking about here these last few days?

......

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 10/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, Katsullivan said:

The only thing appealing about Kylo is that he's a fairly attractive white man. If a black man played the same role, no one would have left the cinema shipping Reylo.

Well...

There are many people who ship Rey with Finn, who still ship Rey with Finn despite the fact that Rose now exists, and even if....whoever....thinks that Rian Johnson brought Rose into the picture just to sink the ship before it could leave the harbor, that doesn't alter the fact that many people were pissed because Rey and Finn spend almost the entirety of TLJ apart. So is it that they really want them to get together or just that they hate Rose for existing?

[Zuleikha]

The only thing appealing about Kylo is that he's a fairly attractive white man.

Adam Driver isn't conventionally attractive. He has that jolie laide look that works for modeling and makes him interesting, but I think it's all about the acting charisma between him and Daisy Ridley. And that there's a segment of fandom that  always goes for the redemption of the villain romantic storyline.

I also am in the camp that thinks TLJ leaned into the Reylo hardcore. Sure Johnson's intent may have been to pull the rug out from under it but anyone who knows anything about fan ships know that putting the types of scenes Johnson put in canon is going to be waaaay more powerful than another rejection moment. Reylo didn't exist in canon after TFA. It would have been much better to leave things there.

[VCRTracking]

17 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Adam Driver isn't conventionally attractive. He has that jolie laide look that works for modeling and makes him interesting, but I think it's all about the acting charisma between him and Daisy Ridley. And that there's a segment of fandom that  always goes for the redemption of the villain romantic storyline.

Abrams tends to cast the same type or his love interest in shows like Felicity and Alias. Scott Foley, Scott Speedman, Michael Vartan, Bradley Cooper.

[Wynterwolf]

I don't know... I'm not sure it had anything to do with them wanting to detract from any romantic reading between Rey and Kylo, I think it was more that because of the character type, they wanted someone 'dark and broody', which as you say is quite different from JJ's usual choice for an overtly romantic 'good guy' lead.  But they also gave him flowing dark hair, and dressed him in all black which is also a common look for a romantic 'bad boy' who often times do have an 'interesting' face.  

Edited October 28, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Joe]

Anyone seen Hardware Wars? It was possibly the first SW parody, and inspired the iron scene in TLJ. Also actually pretty funny, which is a bonus. And one odd thing. The actor playing Ham Salad looks more like he could be Adam Driver's dad than Harrison Ford. I'm not even the first to notice it.

[Cherpumple]

On 10/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, Katsullivan said:

There aren't shades of Anakin, that's the point. There were reasons why Anakin turned Dark - being born a slave, and then conscripted as a child-soldier into something that wasn't much better included. Kylo was the opposite of that.

I see lots of shades of Anakin. Both he and Ben were taken from their families at young age to begin Jedi training, and both were singled out and groomed by powerful evil men until their minds were twisted with fear and anger. Both arrogantly thought that their inherent power (and in Ben's case, his pedigree) entitled them to do whatever they wanted, and lashed out violently, even against those they claimed to love, when things didn't go their way. Their lives started very differently, but IMO Ben/Kylo being a Vader wannabe is the point. Han explicitly said that there was "too much Vader in him" and now I see many similar beats of Anakin's story playing out again with Kylo, and I'm interested to see how it resolves differently this time. I'm ESPECIALLY interested to see if the theory is true that Kylo will be visited by Anakin's force ghost in episode IX. That could be a great scene.

On 10/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, Katsullivan said:

The only thing appealing about Kylo is that he's a fairly attractive white man.

There's definitely more to it for me. I personally think that Domhnall Gleeson is more attractive than Adam Driver, but since Hux is written and performed as a one-note generic baddie, with no particular motivation or personality, I have no interest in that character, or desire to see any kind of redemption or backstory for him. On the other hand, I see much more nuance and depth to Kylo, in both the writing and Driver's performance, and am very interested in his fate, for better or worse.  

On 10/28/2018 at 1:02 AM, Zuleikha said:

I also am in the camp that thinks TLJ leaned into the Reylo hardcore.

Me too. And I say this as someone who neither wanted nor expected it. And yet there it was, as plain as day IMO. I was actually pretty surprised by how blatant it was. I have no idea where it will go, or even where I want it to go, but I definitely saw it.

[VCRTracking]

[Cherpumple]

On 10/28/2018 at 7:07 PM, Joe said:

Anyone seen Hardware Wars? It was possibly the first SW parody, and inspired the iron scene in TLJ.

I've seen it! I didn't think it was that funny, but I loved seeing the Death Star as a giant waffle maker. And I just discovered that you can actually buy ones that makes waffles in the shape of the Death Star and Millennium Falcon. Something for the Christmas list! I also liked the use of Paul Frees as the narrator. He's done a ton of stuff, but I mostly know him from several Rankin Bass specials (the Burgermeister Meisterburger!) and the Last Unicorn.

As much as I love getting sucked into the emotional drama of SW, I also love a good parody of the series, probably because I grew up watching Spaceballs (which I thought was hilarious as a kid), which I saw years before I saw a real Star Wars movie. I didn't actually see the OT until the prequels started coming out and I decided to finally see what all the fuss was about. I liked them well enough, but since I already knew the major spoilers and the general plot, I missed out on having a "moment" when Vader reveals that he's Luke's father. I've liked them more as I've rewatched them over the years, but it really was a slow burn, and I don't have the nostalgic childhood attachment to them that so many others do. And I still love Spaceballs. Actually, if I'm being completely honest, the first Star Wars movie I ever saw was the Ewok Adventure, which my parents taped when it first came on TV, and my sisters and I watched an embarrassing number of times (one of my sisters is still terrified of the Gorax). And now I'm really into the sequel trilogy, so clearly my Stars Wars journey has been a bit unusual.

Anyone else remember the first time they saw Star Wars and what you thought of it? 

[Joe]

35 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

I've seen it! I didn't think it was that funny, but I loved seeing the Death Star as a giant waffle maker. And I just discovered that you can actually buy ones that makes waffles in the shape of the Death Star and Millennium Falcon. Something for the Christmas list! I also liked the use of Paul Frees as the narrator. He's done a ton of stuff, but I mostly know him from several Rankin Bass specials (the Burgermeister Meisterburger!) and the Last Unicorn.

As much as I love getting sucked into the emotional drama of SW, I also love a good parody of the series, probably because I grew up watching Spaceballs (which I thought was hilarious as a kid), which I saw years before I saw a real Star Wars movie. I didn't actually see the OT until the prequels started coming out and I decided to finally see what all the fuss was about. I liked them well enough, but since I already knew the major spoilers and the general plot, I missed out on having a "moment" when Vader reveals that he's Luke's father. I've liked them more as I've rewatched them over the years, but it really was a slow burn, and I don't have the nostalgic childhood attachment to them that so many others do. And I still love Spaceballs. Actually, if I'm being completely honest, the first Star Wars movie I ever saw was the Ewok Adventure, which my parents taped when it first came on TV, and my sisters and I watched an embarrassing number of times (one of my sisters is still terrified of the Gorax). And now I'm really into the sequel trilogy, so clearly my Stars Wars journey has been a bit unusual.

Anyone else remember the first time they saw Star Wars and what you thought of it? 

I remember a podcast talking to someone who'd seen Spaceballs first. Is that you? Was it Steele Wars or SWM or both?

I was five when my mum took me to see ROTJ. So I never had the big reveal either. However, I better remember my second viewing. The neighbours taped it several years later. But we all remember FFing through the ads? When I went over, back on to the show or movie itself, I always rewound. They didn't, and I remember being annoyed at that. Also, even around age 8 - 10, I had a crush on Leia. Still do, really.

Also, I had a comic adaptation of ROTJ. The cover made it look like Jabba had double pupils in his eyes. I think it might have been awkward positioning of Jawas, now I think about it. But it's a nice little alien moment that I intend to borrow for my own fiction sometime.

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

As much as I love getting sucked into the emotional drama of SW, I also love a good parody of the series, probably because I grew up watching Spaceballs (which I thought was hilarious as a kid), which I saw years before I saw a real Star Wars movie.

Rick Moranis' Dark Helmet was so hilarious. Also he got down James Earl Jones' accent and cadence he spoke as Darth Vader, perfectly!

The first Star Wars thing I saw was probably the parody on Muppet Babies:

[Matt K]

The Muppet Babies was the very first Star Wars related thing I ever saw.  I actually never watched any of Star Wars until 1995 but I did see Spaceballs years earlier.

[Browncoat]

I saw the original Star Wars in the theater in 1977, when I was 13 -- I was little, though, and told the ticket guy I was 11 to get in for kids' prices.  I saw it multiple times in the theater, and then when the VHS tape came out, we checked it out from the public library, and watched it over and over until it was due.  Some of the changes to the original trilogy are disappointing (though I understand why they needed to add "A New Hope" to the original -- it was not originally Episode IV), particularly the CGI Jabba/Han scene in Mos Eisley (which is more idiotic than disappointing). 

Of course I saw Empire and Jedi multiple times in the theater when they came out, too.

The real original was so remarkable and ahead of its time at the time.  I still have the whole trilogy on VHS, but alas, no way to view it.

[Matt K]

I have the 1995 VHS edition (where they cleaned up the transfer but didn't add anything) in my basement and a working VHS player (at least as of when I last checked which was a few years ago).

[Cherpumple]

20 hours ago, Joe said:

I remember a podcast talking to someone who'd seen Spaceballs first. Is that you? Was it Steele Wars or SWM or both?

It wasn't me, but I'll definitely look for the podcast! I still find Spaceballs highly quotable, even to the point of quoting some lines when I'm watching the real Star Wars ("My hair! He shot my hair!")

 

8 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Some of the changes to the original trilogy are disappointing (though I understand why they needed to add "A New Hope" to the original -- it was not originally Episode IV), particularly the CGI Jabba/Han scene in Mos Eisley (which is more idiotic than disappointing). 

This is one reason why I'm glad I didn't watch it as a kid. I didn't form any attachments to the original look, so I don't really mind all the "improvements" that have been made since. I've seen before/after videos showing all the ways George Lucas messed up the originals with unnecessary CGI, and I can understand why some fans are so bitter about it. It's like watching some weird imposter version. I don't even mind the idea of having an updated version, as long as the original version is still available. The one change I can get behind is the new song at the end of ROTJ, to replace the Yub Nub song that I found so cringey. But of course the trade-off is the horrible Jedi Rocks song at Jabba's Palace, which is the only scene I actively skip over when watching the movies.

Speaking of "first timers," a few months ago someone I know (a male in his 20s) wanted to watch Star Wars for the first time, and asked people what order he should watch the first six movies in. I said episodes 1-6, but someone else argued for the original release order. Then I found something online that recommended 4-5 then 1-3 then 6. I think the argument for the last two options was about getting the "reveal" of Vader's connection to Luke and Leia, rather than getting "spoiled" by watching the prequels first. I get that, but honestly, I would be very surprised if an adult raised in the US didn't know the big secret already. But I am intrigued by the 4-5-1-2-3-6 watching method because it definitely has potential to be very dramatic. At the end of Empire you're left with the WTF feeling of the big reveal, then you dive into the prequels to find out how it's even possible for Vader to be Luke and Leia's father, and then right after seeing a flaming limbless Anakin writhing in pain, you get to watch ROTJ, and see how his last shred of humanity redeems him. Very dramatic! I may try that the next time I feel like a marathon.

[Joe]

7 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

It wasn't me, but I'll definitely look for the podcast! I still find Spaceballs highly quotable, even to the point of quoting some lines when I'm watching the real Star Wars ("My hair! He shot my hair!")

 

This is one reason why I'm glad I didn't watch it as a kid. I didn't form any attachments to the original look, so I don't really mind all the "improvements" that have been made since. I've seen before/after videos showing all the ways George Lucas messed up the originals with unnecessary CGI, and I can understand why some fans are so bitter about it. It's like watching some weird imposter version. I don't even mind the idea of having an updated version, as long as the original version is still available. The one change I can get behind is the new song at the end of ROTJ, to replace the Yub Nub song that I found so cringey. But of course the trade-off is the horrible Jedi Rocks song at Jabba's Palace, which is the only scene I actively skip over when watching the movies.

Speaking of "first timers," a few months ago someone I know (a male in his 20s) wanted to watch Star Wars for the first time, and asked people what order he should watch the first six movies in. I said episodes 1-6, but someone else argued for the original release order. Then I found something online that recommended 4-5 then 1-3 then 6. I think the argument for the last two options was about getting the "reveal" of Vader's connection to Luke and Leia, rather than getting "spoiled" by watching the prequels first. I get that, but honestly, I would be very surprised if an adult raised in the US didn't know the big secret already. But I am intrigued by the 4-5-1-2-3-6 watching method because it definitely has potential to be very dramatic. At the end of Empire you're left with the WTF feeling of the big reveal, then you dive into the prequels to find out how it's even possible for Vader to be Luke and Leia's father, and then right after seeing a flaming limbless Anakin writhing in pain, you get to watch ROTJ, and see how his last shred of humanity redeems him. Very dramatic! I may try that the next time I feel like a marathon.

ROTJ has always been my favourite, though I've only seen the SE once, in the cinema. So I like Yub Nub.

I wouldn't recommend anyone watching the prequels first. While there are some good parts, I find them generally underwhelming and offputting. But yeah, the machete order is interesting. If I was going to watch the prequels again, I'd probably try it. Note that some people drop TPM entirely, seeing it as superfluous. They say that pretty much everything you need to know is gone over in AOTC, with the bonus of minimal Jar Jar.

[VCRTracking]

The best way to watch the prequels and I mean this sincerely is to watch Episodes 1 and 2, then the entire Cartoon Network Clone Wars series, in chronological order as opposed to airdate starting with the theatrical feature (here's a helpful guide)  and then Episode 3. Basically treat TPM and AOTC as a 2 part pilot for the Clone Wars show and ROTS as the series finale! I mean, think about the shows you're devoted to and your favorite episodes are usually not the first or last episodes anyway, but the ones in the middle. "Rookies", "Landing at Point Rain" the "Ryloth trilogy", the "Mortis" arc, ANY episode featuring Cad Bane, the Darth Maul and Mandalorian arc,  Asoka's final arc(before the upcoming new episodes) are some of the best stories in the Star Wars canon.

Edited November 3, 2018 by VCRTracking

[WritinMan]

My favorite Star Wars parody is probably Troops.

I first saw Star Wars at the theater when I was 8 years old and my mind was blown. I think I watched it with my mouth hanging open for the full running time. I have never had a movie experience like that since although Fellowship of the Ring was close. I also have the letter-boxed original trilogy on VHS--part of really nice boxed set--with no way to play them. And I mean without all the edits--Han shooting first, Yub Nub, and all that other good stuff.

Edited November 4, 2018 by WritinMan

[Perfect Xero]

On 11/3/2018 at 2:22 AM, Cherpumple said:

It wasn't me, but I'll definitely look for the podcast! I still find Spaceballs highly quotable, even to the point of quoting some lines when I'm watching the real Star Wars ("My hair! He shot my hair!")

 

This is one reason why I'm glad I didn't watch it as a kid. I didn't form any attachments to the original look, so I don't really mind all the "improvements" that have been made since. I've seen before/after videos showing all the ways George Lucas messed up the originals with unnecessary CGI, and I can understand why some fans are so bitter about it. It's like watching some weird imposter version. I don't even mind the idea of having an updated version, as long as the original version is still available. The one change I can get behind is the new song at the end of ROTJ, to replace the Yub Nub song that I found so cringey. But of course the trade-off is the horrible Jedi Rocks song at Jabba's Palace, which is the only scene I actively skip over when watching the movies.

Speaking of "first timers," a few months ago someone I know (a male in his 20s) wanted to watch Star Wars for the first time, and asked people what order he should watch the first six movies in. I said episodes 1-6, but someone else argued for the original release order. Then I found something online that recommended 4-5 then 1-3 then 6.

This is very similar to the "Machete Order" (named after the blog that first suggested it), except that the Machete Order omits Episode 1 entirely (or leaves it to be watched later as a sort of standalone prequel).

The idea being that Episode I is largely irrelevant to the story of the fall of Anakin Skywalker, and rather boring on the whole. By removing TPM it also 'edits' the relationship between Anakin and Padme so we skip over seeing adult actress Padme with little kid Anakin.

[andromeda331]

I first watch Star Wars with my dad in the ninth grade ever year USA or TNT would do play the originals (the prequals hadn't been made)  I always seen it listed but never watched it until then. Then got hooked immediately. I've been a fan ever since then bought all the books, watch the Prequals. I like the prequals but do think reading the books and watching the Clone Wars helped fill in a lot of pieces. I've had hard time adjusting to the "new" Disney canon the old canon is so burned into my memory its hard to switch over. I don't know what I think about the current trilogy. I didn't mind TFA but it didn't grab me like the other six did. I did like Rogue One the battle was easy my favorite part. I didn't like the Rebel Alliance acting so scared and giving up when they heard of the Death Star it just didn't feel like that would be their reaction. I think its going to depend on what happens in the third one. 

[BetterButter]

'Star Wars': Diego Luna to Star in 'Rogue One' Prequel Series

[Joe]

56 minutes ago, BetterButter said:

'Star Wars': Diego Luna to Star in 'Rogue One' Prequel Series

Given the choice, I'd prefer something with a few more lightsabres, but I'll certainly give this a shot.

[VCRTracking]

RIP Gloria Katz, and condolences to husband Willard Huyck.

[Joe]

It's been three years since TFA was released, two since Rogue One, and one year since TLJ.* We've had time to digest, to think, rewatch, and to come up our longer-term verdicts. Have we changed from our initial reactions? Have any moved up in our perception? Down? Or do we like them just as much, only for different reasons?

My views are pretty much the same, I think. I like all of them. Rogue One is my favourite, though more for the second half than the first. However, I find that the second half doesn't have the appropriate weight without the first.

Second is TLJ. Yeah, it's wonky. Yeah, I would have done some things differently. Even given the screenplay to touch up, I'd have made one small change. I'd have Holdo go to lightspeed the moment she hit Snoke's ship, rather than just before. I don't know why that sticks out at me, but it does.

TFA is still fun, though some of Finn's dialogue... I can see why he's trying too hard, but that doesn't mean I like it.

*I don't count Solo, because it didn't come out in December.

[Danny Franks]

I like all three movies, to varying degrees.

I can never really order the Star Wars movies in terms of definitive favourites (other than to say I think the prequels are all garbage), because the emotional attachment to A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back can't be quantified.

I think my favourite of the three new ones is The Force Awakens. It was the first new movie, and the one that proved Disney can do Star Wars, and do it well. It introduced a couple of enjoyable characters, in Finn and Poe, and one legitimately great character, in Rey. As well as an intriguing, very modern villain, the petulant, school shooter archetype, Kylo Ren. I really liked the way the movie handled the iconography of the franchise, with a deft touch and just the right amount of nods to fans.

Rogue One is a lot darker, with less sympathetic characters, but it has a more grown up take on the Rebellion, and it also has what is definitely the best Star Wars battle sequence, as the climax to the movie. Seriously, that whole third act is fantastic, in content, pacing, emotional connection, everything. It also reminded us why Darth Vader was so terrifying.

The Last Jedi is definitely the most polarising, and there are aspects I don't like at all. The framing device of a drawn out, tortuous, chase scene is a bit lame (and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny), and the detour to the casino planet, while successfully conveying a message about the lack of impact these supposedly seismic changes in the galactic order have on the rich, and on those who profit from war, was just the wrong fit for Star Wars. It felt like something from an inferior franchise.

And the Yoda cameo made my heart move, in the way the nostalgia-driven parts of these movies should. Hell, R2 replaying Leia's message from all the way back in A New Hope genuinely brought a lump to my throat.

I do not want to reignite the endless debate about Kylo Ren, so I'll just say that my view is he came out of the movie as more of an irredeemable villain than he was going in, which is what I wanted them to do. And Rey came out of this movie as the figurehead of the new Rebellion, which again, is what I wanted. She is the Big Damn Hero, and I expect the final movie of this trilogy to complete her journey, like Jedi completed Luke's.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Danny Franks

[starri]

6 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Rogue One is a lot darker, with less sympathetic characters, but it has a more grown up take on the Rebellion, and it also has what is definitely the best Star Wars battle sequence, as the climax to the movie. Seriously, that whole third act is fantastic, in content, pacing, emotional connection, everything. It also reminded us why Darth Vader was so terrifying.

I liked both TFA and TLJ, but Rogue One and Star Wars Rebels are the most interesting thing they've done with the franchise in a long, long time.

[Zuleikha]

TFA is easily the best for me. It was beautiful, powerful, and had great characters. IMHO, it's only weakness is that it didn't do enough exposition about the political realities of the post-Empire world. I needed supplemental material to understand the relative power and histories of the New Republic/First Order and that's never great. The actual idea for the history was fine, though. I initially didn't love the Starkiller concept, but I think getting a better idea of the First Order caused me to reverse myself. Of course, they would make their big weapon a Death Star clone. That's who they are. It's appropriate character wise and I thought it worked thematically as well.

Rogue One was interesting, and I like a lot of what it did. Unfortunately, so much of it was supposed to get emotional strength from Jyn Erso, and I never felt the movie knew who she was. She was more interesting and defined in the trailer. The movie seemed to have a better idea of who the other characters were. Also, I thought Saw Gerrera was a misstep. There was no character consistency between Saw in Rogue One and in Clone Wars. Better to have had him be a new character, and also be less cruel to the pilot character.

It does get a bonus in my heart for introducing me to Donnie Yen, who is amazing. 

The Last Jedi was simply a failure for me. I enjoyed it because of the strength of Ridley's, Driver's, and Hamill's acting as well as the beautiful cinematography. I've talked at length in this thread and in the TLJ thread about why I thought the movie's story didn't work, so I won't belabor the point here.

[VCRTracking]

All four movies in the Disney era so far were kind of about Star Wars in a meta way and going forward they really have to be treated as just stories set in the universe.

The Force Awakens: Despite it being too retro for me, Abrams did a fantastic job introducing new characters and I got emotional seeing the old ones again.

Rogue One: I really wish the movie was at least 10 to 20 minutes longer so we could get to know the characters more like the old war movies did. I will say The Battle of Scarif is now my favorite SW space battle.

The Last Jedi: Rian Johnson set out to put characters we love through the wringer and while some people hated how he did that I thought it was great. I especially love Luke's arc. TFA built up Luke as this now legendary figure so there was disappointment from many that we didn't get that. Luke in the OT though was an imperfect human being who made mistakes and it makes sense to me that that legendary status would be a burden. His learning to accept his own failure and truly embrace that legend the way he did on Crait was more meaningful and important than what people expected or wanted IMO.

Solo. I think it works as both a biopic of an iconic character and a heist movie. I also liked seeing new aspects and corners of the universe.

Edited December 16, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Ravenya003]

The Force Awakens: It leaned a bit too much on nostalgia in several respects, and (as has been mentioned above) the political landscape wasn't build up very clearly or coherently (when episode 9 comes out, I'm certain that I'll look back on this sequel trilogy and say its biggest weakness was retreading the Resistance=underdogs, First Order=powerful oppressors setup, instead of making the New Republic the powerful but vulnerable default, and the First Order little more than a terrorist faction, albeit one that can cause incredible damage). But the new characters were instantly loveable and intriguing, the legacy characters were exactly as I imagined they would be, and there were some fantastic set-pieces along the way (Kylo and Rey fighting in the snowy forest is possibly my favourite Star Wars battle ever). 

Rogue One: A great change of pace and a "war story" that shone a light on those who were struggling through the mud instead of playing space-wizards with magical swords and familial legacies and operatic destinies. Unfortunately, the characterization was a bit weak (Jyn and Cassian didn't resonate with me until literally a few minutes before their deaths) but as others have said, the second half of the film more than makes up for the weak first half. And I can't complain that we got a second female SW protagonist in as many years. 

The Last Jedi: Rian Johnson wanted to deconstruct the tropes, themes and expectations of Star Wars. I understand that, and I can even respect that - but at the end of the day, I simply didn't want that. Maybe this is some weird form of reverse-snobbery, but I was looking forward to a straightforward good-versus-evil story that didn't play out like a long train of GOTCHA! moments (Rey's parents are nobodies - GOTCHA! Luke is a cynical old hermit who throws his lightsaber away - GOTCHA! Poe should have trusted Admiral Holdo - GOTCHA! Finn shouldn't have trusted DJ - GOTCHA! Snoke is irrelevant - GOTCHA! Kylo Ren doesn't want to be redeemed - GOTCHA! Okay, I GET IT. Can you just tell me the story now and stop trying to catch me off-guard?)

Not only were most of these twists not even remotely surprisingly, but characters felt like they were being punished for acting like Star Wars characters (Rey, you were stupid for thinking you could redeem someone from the Dark Side, Poe, you were stupid for not following the chain of command, and Finn, you were stupid for trusting a roguish cad; how DARE all three of you try to emulate your heroes!) Again, I GET this this was a deconstruction of what we usually expect from Star Wars movies (anyone can earn redemption, it's good to flaunt authority, feel free to trust the dodgy-looking guy who insists he's only out for himself) but to me it all felt too manufactured for shock value. 

There was stuff I genuinely liked, such as the removal of Snoke and Kylo Ren coming out worse than when he started, and other things I'm neutral on (I wasn't mortally offended by Luke's characterization as many others were) but I've always been more invested in the heroes rather than the villains of this franchise, and felt that they were shortchanged here. The movie just wasn't what I wanted, though I accept that's MY problem, and not Johnson's (that there are six hour YouTube videos whining about this movie just makes me cringe, not to mention all the backlash the cast and crew had to endure).

Solo: It was a fun heist movie, but there's not really much more to say about it. Like Rogue One, I appreciated the glimpse of non-Jedi characters just trying to survive under the Empire's grip (though in this case it was the criminal underworld rather than the rebel alliance) but despite all the many, many call-backs and in-jokes, I was never quite able to connect the young version of Han with his older self. To me, this was just a story that happened to be set in the Star Wars universe, rather than a prequel concerning the early years of a fan favourite. 

Star Wars Rebels: I'm throwing this in because I binged watched all of it this year, and I'd go so far to say that it's the best story of the lot of them (involving the best love story of the franchise). Television shows have lower budgets, but they also have a lot more room to explore storylines and character development, and despite my complete lack of interest in protagonist Ezra (another plucky and semi-obnoxious orphan with power in the Force) I loved the rest of the crew, especially Hera and Kanan. The latter's fate is right up there with Luke learning about his father and Han getting frozen in carbonite as a Big Emotional Quintessential Star Wars Moment, and it also takes the time to really explore the mysticism of the Force and make meaningful links to the original trilogy (at one point Ezra is in a place that echoes with voices from past, present and future, and it gave me CHILLS). 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Ravenya003

[benteen]

Rogue One was definitely the best.  I still like The Force Awakens despite it being a rehash of A New Hope.

Quote

The Last Jedi: Rian Johnson wanted to deconstruct the tropes, themes and expectations of Star Wars. I understand that, and I can even respect that - but at the end of the day, I simply didn't want that. Maybe this is some weird form of reverse-snobbery, but I was looking forward to a straightforward good-versus-evil story that didn't play out like a long train of GOTCHA! moments (Rey's parents are nobodies - GOTCHA! Luke is a cynical old hermit who throws his lightsaber away - GOTCHA! Poe should have trusted Admiral Holdo - GOTCHA! Finn shouldn't have trusted DJ - GOTCHA! Snoke is irrelevant - GOTCHA! Kylo Ren doesn't want to be redeemed - GOTCHA! Okay, I GET IT. Can you just tell me the story now and stop trying to catch me off-guard?)

I think that's a great assessment.  I blame LFL for not having at least a basic overlying storyline for this trilogy ahead of time.  The sequel trilogy surpasses the prequel trilogy in many areas but the prequel trilogy at least had a far stronger and more coherent overarching storyline.  It's hard to figure out what that is supposed to be with the sequel trilogy.

I did love the Yoda cameo.  Though storyline wise it would have made 100 times more sense for Luke to have talked to Obi-Wan there.  Obi-Wan had lost an apprentice to the dark side, making him far more appropriate to be discussing the subject with Luke and brought things full circle with ANH.

Star Wars The Clone Wars will always be my favorite Star Wars animated series and it's a great one as well.  But I did learn to really, really enjoyed Star Wars Rebels, though I had some issues with it stepping on the toes of the original trilogy (the use of the Emperor, Ezra and Kanan's powers, etc.).

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

I did love the Yoda cameo.  Though storyline wise it would have made 100 times more sense for Luke to have talked to Obi-Wan there.  Obi-Wan had lost an apprentice to the dark side, making him far more appropriate to be discussing the subject with Luke and brought things full circle with ANH

But Luke and Yoda also have the shared experience of being head of the Jedi Order and seeing it destroyed and then  isolating himself on a planet. Anakin wasn't just an apprentice to Obi-Wan, he was a friend and brother who betrayed him. He felt let down by Anakin while Luke feels he let down not just Ben, but Leia and Han and all his students.

Edited December 17, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

12 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

The Last Jedi: Rian Johnson wanted to deconstruct the tropes, themes and expectations of Star Wars. I understand that, and I can even respect that - but at the end of the day, I simply didn't want that.

And I can understand and respect that kind of opinion. People have a right to not like something because it's not what they wanted or expected. It's only when they state something is objectively bad and I don't agree is when I feel that it's debatable. So many fans online though make the latter kind of statement.

Edited December 17, 2018 by VCRTracking

[WritinMan]

Well, this is an interesting bit of information. Matt Martin is part of the Lucasfilm story group, by the way....

 

[Perfect Xero]

17 minutes ago, WritinMan said:

Well, this is an interesting bit of information. Matt Martin is part of the Lucasfilm story group, by the way....

 

He clarifies that he's talking about the script being written before TFA was released, which has been said before.