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S05.E17: Thwack!

thewhiteowl

By thewhiteowl
in Scandal [V]

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

They should all be thwacked, every single one of them except Susan Ross.  And the writers who come up with this dreck.  The most offensive to me was Olivia not missing a single beat in threatening Abby with her HBIC rant, not a second of shakiness, horror at the scene, disbelief at what she'd done, no, right into Queen Olivia mode.  What a sociopath.  I'm sick of it.

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FilmTVGeek80

FilmTVGeek80

 

She deserved it. She was going to tank Mellie's campaign under the guise of "doing her job".

 

She deserved it why - because she went behind the back of the almighty Olivia Pope and actually did her job? She should be trying to tank Mellie's campaign because the White House is backing Susan. Abbie owed Mellie nothing. Olivia would have done the same damn thing  probably worse.

 

 

My least favorite part was probably Liv basically threatening Abby with "never cross me again." I don't feel that bad about her murdering Andrew. He was terrible. But Abby was her friend.

 

"Don't ever cross me again." Or what you're going to bash in Abbie's brains, too? I thought the implication of her threat was disgusting. They're all standing around and looking at the bloody pulp of Olivia's murder victim and she decides to start barking orders. "You have one hour." One hour or what? She's going to come back and kill Abbie and the president? She's going to frame them somehow for her murder. I'm going to just chock it up to shock because otherwise I have no idea why they did what she demanded.

 

 

Oh, he's a scumbag too.  Remember how they introduced him as a disingenuous politician who pretended to have integrity while simultaneously screwing his opponent's wife?  He also cowered in a closet and watched while that same woman (who he claimed to love so much) was brutally murdered. Sooooo, yeah.  Everybody's awful.

 

Just like with Susan committing adultery is a drop in the bucket compared to the other horrendous, criminal, disgusting things most of these other characters have done. And, yeah, hiding in the closet may have been a bit cowardly but I really can't judge him too harshly for it. Plus, unlike every other character on this show he actually owned what he did and was punished for it since he actually choose not to listen to Olivia and came clean about everything and he lost his job. To top it all off now he's working for the scumbags at OPA.

 

 

One person's ridiculousness is another's awesomeness, I suppose. For me, it was the most satisfying thing I've seen on TV in weeks. I've watched the scene 10 times now, everything from Andrew sneering about how he deserves revenge through Olivia telling off moron Abby. We live in a world with too little justice, where bad people get away with things everyday, where men hurt women all the time and there are too few happy endings. For all the plot machinations required to make it happen, this moment had a woman face down a man who had done terrible things to her without remorse, who threatened to keep doing bad things to her, and she had enough. She took him out.

 

For me this wasn't some righteous female empowerment moment, especially considering Liv is one of those bad people who gets away with everything. I'm certainly not going to cheer on Liv bashing in a guy in a wheelchair's brains, no matter how disgusting the man is, because Liv is just as deserving of that kind of beatdown. Maybe Susan should be allowed to strangle or beat Liv's face in with a chair because Liv drove her old boyfriend to commit suicide. Perhaps all of the families and friends of the people Papa Pope killed recently should get to viciously kill her since she let her psycho father out of prison so she could avoid marrying her boyfriend.

 

Given Shonda and her team's completely blind belief in this idea that Olivia is someone to be admired and wears a "white hat" I'm guessing we were supposed to root her on and feel sorry for her as she regroups to her psycho father's house. But Olivia has been far too tarnished me for to ever root for her, even when her actions are seemingly justified.

 

 

Of all the things the now deceased VP was guilty of with regards to Olivia Pope, he in fact did not try and sell her. Putting Olivia Pope up for auction was her idea.

 

Yep. As disgusting as it was that was all Olivia's brain child.

 

 

Then she could have strangled his ass, or taken a page out of her luv-vah's playbook and smothered him with pillow or chair cushion.

 

Maybe this was Shonda's plan all along, to show how made for each other Olivia and Fitz were since they both killed disgusting, yet defenseless people. Though in Fitz's defense he didn't go overboard and bash the woman's brains in.

 

I can see they're running out of material for Scandal since they're already ripping off HTGAWM. Now Liv is running to her childhood home (not sure if Rowan's current house is where she grew up) and going to spend an episode in her natural hair and no make-up or minimal make-up. Difference being Cicely Tyson is awesome and Papa Pope is a past his expiration date gas bag.

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KaveDweller

KaveDweller

I missed something - what did Abby do before she anointed herself Queen - she went in to talk to Andrew, closed the door and then we see her walking into Fitz' office - does anyone know what happened behind that door.  I may have missed it when I kind of gagging at all the sick crap going on this thing but am curious.  She seemed to have inflated herself to the point of believing she had more power than the president - somehow?

 

She convinced Andrew to change his story about Fitz going to war for his mistress to a story about how he and Mellie had an affair. So Mellie would be the only one hurt by the article and Firz wouldn't get hurt.

 

I thought that Olivia killing the ex-VP seemed like battered-woman syndrome, at least the way law shows always present it as a defense for a woman killing her abuser. She kept flashing back to being held, like she thought she was still in danger. So it felt like self-defense even if she wasn't really in immediate danger.

 

Question - The kidnapped storyline was last season. There was no major time jump between the end of last season and the start of this one, and there was a 6-month time jump during the winter hiatus. But on the show they referred to Andrew's "stroke" happening two years ago. Am I missing something?

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Calamity Jane

Calamity Jane

(edited)

All last week, I was expecting at some point to see Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower so someone could tell us it was all a dream.  Even more so this week.  Probably makes too much sense, though.  

 

I'm grateful that I will be able to get my weekly fix of ruthless greed, senseless violence, and general puzzlement when Game of Thrones returns.  April 24 is coming!  

 

Meanwhile, bye Scandal, I won't miss this mess at all.  

Edited by Calamity Jane
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Guest

Guest

Even if it would tank Mellie's campaign, it was by telling true things about Mellie. And even that wasn't in the top 3 of terrible things Mellie has done. Probably not even the top 5.

Off the top of my head, she's 1) stolen an election, 2) forged the President's signature on an important document, 3) induced dangerously early to trick Fitz, 4) faked a miscarriage for sympathy, 5) gotten a bus full of grand jurors shot, 6) helped Rowan get out of jail, and 7) covered up Daniel Douglas' murder.

As a viewer, I have no sympathy if her campaign is ruined.

FilmTVGeek80

FilmTVGeek80

After Olivia pulverized Andrew's head, the only thing I could think is 'Why?' Not why did she do it, but why am I still watching this steam pile? Even with all the bad things I can say about Grey's Anatomy at least that show isn't predominantly filled with soulless, unrepentant murderers and assorted scumbags. Yet I still dropped that show like a bad habit when my favorite left. But for some reason, even though I loathe 80% of these characters (I only like Susan, Abby to a certain extent, and Jake and that's mainly because I love Scott Foley) I still am watching this crap. I guess I just have too few options on Thursdays at 9.

 

And that they actually named this episode "Thwack?!" I guess they can't even go subtle with the episode titles. I bet TPTB at The Walking Dead are pissed they can't use that title for the season premiere in a few months (I say with a small amount of sarcasm.)

 

If they were expecting people to be surprised over what Liv did they probably shouldn't have spent weeks talking about Olivia doing something that would shock THE WORLD. Plus with all of her flashbacks and then them not once, but twice warning for adult content, you just had to know something gross and violent was coming. Half of the reasons those moments like Fitz getting shot were truly shocking was because it really was a surprise and the show didn't spend months overhyping it.

 

Not that Fitz deserves much loyalty but I was kind of surprised at how easily, and happily, Liv accepted that Fitz was going to fall on his sword for them. Considering how happy she was to turn her back on him, I'm not sure why she was so surprised and seemingly hurt that Abby turned on her. I guess Liv thought the prospect of being her lackey again should have had Abby kissing her feet.

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KaveDweller

KaveDweller

(edited)

Even if it would tank Mellie's campaign, it was by telling true things about Mellie. And even that wasn't in the top 3 of terrible things Mellie has done. Probably not even the top 5.

Off the top of my head, she's 1) stolen an election, 2) forged the President's signature on an important document, 3) induced dangerously early to trick Fitz, 4) faked a miscarriage for sympathy, 5) gotten a bus full of grand jurors shot, 6) helped Rowan get out of jail, and 7) covered up Daniel Douglas' murder.

As a viewer, I have no sympathy if her campaign is ruined.

 

I'd have no sympathy about any of these people's campaign's being ruined. They are all awful people who don't deserve to be president.  And Olivia (or Hollis, or Mellie, or Liz) would have done the exact same thing Abby did if the situations were reversed.

 

I might have had sympathy about Susan's secret coming out, because it's a personal issue and I don't think those should impact careers unless we're talking about criminal activity/abuse. And because her's would have also hurt her daughter. But I also wouldn't want Susan to get elected president because she doesn't seem tough enough for it.

Edited by KaveDweller
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FiveByFive

FiveByFive

(edited)

The most offensive to me was Olivia not missing a single beat in threatening Abby with her HBIC rant, not a second of shakiness, horror at the scene, disbelief at what she'd done, no, right into Queen Olivia mode.  What a sociopath.  I'm sick of it.

It seemed like she was going all through that between the time she killed Andrew and the President got her to "snap out of it," get up and move forward to leave the room.

 

She deserved it why - because she went behind the back of the almighty Olivia Pope and actually did her job? She should be trying to tank Mellie's campaign because the White House is backing Susan. Abbie owed Mellie nothing. Olivia would have done the same damn thing  probably worse.

She did more than that. Abby wasn't just doing her job.  Abby screwed over her "friend" whose crime was telling her that she wasn't a "Big Dog" she was "Abby."  So while you could interpret that to mean she was weak, she was also implying she wasn't like Cyrus (who is a monster) who tried to have his own husband killed at one point.  Her telling Abby that she was good and that she wouldn't end up teaching at some college in the middle of nowhere and that she could come back and work for "me" wasn't an intentional insult. It was her friend saying, I've got you.  

 

However, it's clear why Abby would have seen it as an insult because Olivia has never taken the time to figure out what's going on in Abby's head but it's not like she didn't previously encourage her to do a good job at work when she wasn't thinking about herself that is.

 

So, yes, Abby tried to take control of the situation and shift the article to trashing Mellie but more than that, she went behind Olivia's back and colluded with the guy who kidnapped and tortured her (killed her neighbor too) to hurt her client Mellie.  To add insult to injury she then told Olivia that not only did she lie to her but she was revoking her pass to the White House and that if she wanted to come she had to talk to her.  

 

Olivia burning Abby was well deserved IMHO because what Abby did wasn't just her doing her job, it was personal. If it wasn't personal there were other ways to show her strength like tell Olivia what she was doing first and ask her to tell her when she's coming to The White House and she'll give her permission.  Heck, back at Olivia's apartment she could have told her, "Nah, I don't want to work for you. I want to have my own thing going but thanks for the offer!" Nope, Abby snapped and tried to be a "big dog" but she chose the wrong time to do it because it involved her dealing with a person who kidnapped and tortured her best "friend" who was a vile human being.

 

Would other people have done what Abby did? Probably but the thing is they don't have a history with Olivia like Abby.

 

I thought that Olivia killing the ex-VP seemed like battered-woman syndrome, at least the way law shows always present it as a defense for a woman killing her abuser. She kept flashing back to being held, like she thought she was still in danger. So it felt like self-defense even if she wasn't really in immediate danger.

Agreed. They have always made it clear that Olivia is not over what happened to her at all. She should have never been alone in the room with him but he chided her until she reacted. He really shouldn't have been so stupid. Since he knew how close she was to the President, she was alone and that everyone already wanted him dead. 

 

Maybe this was Shonda's plan all along, to show how made for each other Olivia and Fitz were since they both killed disgusting, yet defenseless people. Though in Fitz's defense he didn't go overboard and bash the woman's brains in.

They're all horrible people except for Susan and that's exactly why she wouldn't be President in this world. Would Susan ever work with Rowan Pope? Nope. However, things are going well in the country and okay at the White House because of all of the horrible stuff they've done. 

 

There's a thing in acting called, "playing the negative" which is this idea that it's best to give a performance, even if you're a bad person or doing a bad "act," as if you believe what you're doing is "right" and the only way to do things. They all do that on this show constantly. Even if they're doing something bad they believe it's for a greater good. 

 

I think the one thing I have to remind myself as a viewer is that we know more about them than they do about one another.  Olivia still doesn't know that Jake killed James. How many people actually know that Fitz killed Verna? If they all knew half the stuff Cyrus had done in the past, Cyrus would have been out of the White House eons ago.  So while they're all sitting around saying they're going to "do" good at various points in the story they're simultaneously keeping up the illusion with one another that they are good people but as the show goes on they do it less and less but still it happens. 

Edited by FiveByFive
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Oblique Angle

Oblique Angle

Since I firmly believe that Olivia and Fitz will end up back together by the time the show ends, I can only imagine what their pillow talk will like:

Olivia: Oh Fitz, darling, what an exciting life we've had. Remember that time you killed the Supreme Court justice?
Fitz: Aw, shucks, Liv, that was nothing. What about the time you killed my vice president?
Olivia: Which one? The first or the second?
Fitz: The first one, of course. What you did to Susan, well, that's in a category all its own. They'll probably never get the stains out.
Olivia: Sigh, good times. Stop hogging the blankets, Fitz.

 

I give props to Abby for not laughing in Olivia's face when she had the audacity to tell her she could go back and work for her.

There was a very similar moment on this last season of House of Cards, which also has its key players running around killing people so they can get/stay in the White House. I wonder if Shonda is trying to make Scandal more like that series? Good luck with that.

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Dowel Jones

Dowel Jones

It would be interesting to chart a separate course if Abby had instead glared right back at Olivia and Fitz and said "This is your mess.  You're on your own.  I quit.  I'm calling the police."  The last part being rather superfluous as Fitz would no doubt issue some explanatory decree that would absolve Olivia.  I mean, as long as child murdering Tom is running around loose, what's the big deal with a quadriplegic ex VP with his head bashed in?  And, yes, it would bring the entire house down, but, somewhere along the line you have to save your own soul, at least.

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FilmTVGeek80

FilmTVGeek80

(edited)

 

She did more than that. Abby wasn't just doing her job.  Abby screwed over her "friend" whose crime was telling her that she wasn't a "Big Dog" she was "Abby."  So while you could interpret that to mean she was weak, she was also implying she wasn't like Cyrus (who is a monster) who tried to have his own husband killed at one point.  Her telling Abby that she was good and that she wouldn't end up teaching at some college in the middle of nowhere and that she could come back and work for "me" wasn't an intentional insult. It was her friend saying, I've got you.

 

So was it personal when Olivia didn't inform Abby that she and her OPA crew were trying to get dirt on Susan, who the president and Abby were helping run for President, so they could ruin her and get her out of the race?

 

Olivia might not have realized it was an insult probably because she doesn't really care to think about others feelings. Her line to Abby that she could just run back to her old job and be Olivia's lackey again was condescending.

 

 

 

So, yes, Abby tried to take control of the situation and shift the article to trashing Mellie but more than that, she went behind Olivia's back and colluded with the guy who kidnapped and tortured her (killed her neighbor too) to hurt her client Mellie.  To add insult to injury she then told Olivia that not only did she lie to her but she was revoking her pass to the White House and that if she wanted to come she had to talk to her. 

Olivia burning Abby was well deserved IMHO because what Abby did wasn't just her doing her job, it was personal. If it wasn't personal there were other ways to show her strength like tell Olivia what she was doing first and ask her to tell her when she's coming to The White House and she'll give her permission.  Heck, back at Olivia's apartment she could have told her, "Nah, I don't want to work for you. I want to have my own thing going but thanks for the offer!" Nope, Abby snapped and tried to be a "big dog" but she chose the wrong time to do it because it involved her dealing with a person who kidnapped and tortured her best "friend" who was a vile human being.

 

Olivia was busy trying to make deals with the man that kidnapped her, but somehow Abby's terrible because she also tried to make a deal with the same guy? Yeah she tried to flex her muscles and revoked her pass, which was actually the most sensible thing to do given that Olivia right now is on the opposite side to the White House. And LOL she should have told Olivia what she was planning? And Olivia would have what - rolled over and let her do it? Olivia would have just turned around and did the same thing she ended up doing.

 

And how exactly did she "burn" Abby, by what threatening to kill her? Abby should have laughed in her face and turned her murdering ass in.

 

 

Would other people have done what Abby did? Probably but the thing is they don't have a history with Olivia like Abby.

 

Olivia would have done the exact same thing that Abby did - and probably much worse.

 

 

They're all horrible people except for Susan and that's exactly why she wouldn't be President in this world. Would Susan ever work with Rowan Pope? Nope. However, things are going well in the country and okay at the White House because of all of the horrible stuff they've done.

 

I highly doubt if people weren't running around bashing people's heads in that even in this fictionalized Scandal reality that the world would collapse. 

 

 

I think the one thing I have to remind myself as a viewer is that we know more about them than they do about one another.  Olivia still doesn't know that Jake killed James. How many people actually know that Fitz killed Verna? If they all knew half the stuff Cyrus had done in the past, Cyrus would have been out of the White House eons ago.

 

Olivia does know Jake killed James. He admitted it to her. I don't know exactly how many people know Fitz killed Verna, though I'm fairly sure Olivia and Cyrus knows. Even if there are certain things they don't know, I don't think any of those people really have any illusions about the others being good, except for maybe everyone's opinions about Olivia.

 

 

15 minutes in and I gave the hell up.

 

I wish I'd done that.

Edited by FilmTVGeek80
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slayer2

slayer2

(edited)

Oh dear, thwack indeed. Well she sure can't call herself a white hat now, uh....red hat, dripping red?

Scandal seems to have the same problem as Arrow in regards to letting villains live, maybe Malcolm Merlyn and Rowan Pope can form their own Suicide Squad, where they both like, kill each other.

What else...hmmmm I love you Abby. Always and forever, you'll get 'em next time tiger.

Also second to Abby, really getting to like Fitz. Strange feeling that. When Fitz is the only one with a conscience things have taken a turn.

That former Veep had it coming, still haven't forgiven him for doing Mellie dirty like that and that was before I even realized the kidnapping was his fault. This unhinged, sociopath is on you, bro.

I'm enjoying rooting against Liv, I can still appreciate the wine drinking while hoping it clogs in her throat. Kerry is still incredible even when her counterpart needs serious, serious therapy.

#TeamAbitz

Edited by slayer2
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Lemontree23

Lemontree23

What I find super confusing is WHEN DID TOM BECOME GAY!? I thought he kind of had a lusty thing for Liv way back when, remember the speech about the "face that launched 1000 ships..."? I just don't buy him and Cyrus together AT ALL.

And what the hell!? Vargas' brother is going to be the one to find out that Tom was the real shooter of his brother? No police investigated the security cameras, but let's have Vargas' hot brother figure it out...that way no one will be held accountable, he'll just be able to hold it over Cyrus' head. Irritating to say the least. If there was ever an OUNCE of justice in this show, I would crap my pants. I am so sick of the nature of this show and I really think I should stop watching. And to think, I binge watched this show the first three seasons because it was fascinating and interesting and the chemistry between Liv and Fitz was tangible, and now it's just garbage. disgusting garbage.

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

 

Quote

    I thought that Olivia killing the ex-VP seemed like battered-woman syndrome, at least the way law shows always present it as a defense for a woman killing her abuser. She kept flashing back to being held, like she thought she was still in danger. So it felt like self-defense even if she wasn't really in immediate danger.

Agreed. They have always made it clear that Olivia is not over what happened to her at all. She should have never been alone in the room with him but he chided her until she reacted. He really shouldn't have been so stupid. Since he knew how close she was to the President, she was alone and that everyone already wanted him dead.

 

That might all be relevant as mitigating factors if she ever faced real justice, which she won't.  She beat a defenseless man's brains out, because she was verbally provoked, and pissed off at Abby who had one-upped her.  She was willing to deal with him right before he started his tirade.  That makes her no different than any other murderous thug. 

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Chaos Theory

Chaos Theory

I actually liked this episode. I have no illusions to the kind of person Olivia is. I never did. I enjoyed the gathering on the Andrew problem and everyone's reaction, especially Cyrus. Plus I liked the scene between Olivia and Abby. These were two people who used to be friends and now have nothing in common. When Olivia offered Abby her old job back it I think it was Abby worst nightmare

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TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

That might all be relevant as mitigating factors if she ever faced real justice, which she won't.  She beat a defenseless man's brains out, because she was verbally provoked, and pissed off at Abby who had one-upped her.  She was willing to deal with him right before he started his tirade.  That makes her no different than any other murderous thug. 

 

She was willing to deal with him until he sparked her PTSD by noting everything he could do to her again and gloating over everything he had done, hence the 20 million flashbacks before she snapped. Does every other "murderous thug" (and are you sure "thug" is a word you want to use to insult a black character?) have flashbacks before snapping? Somehow, I doubt it.

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thewhiteowl

thewhiteowl

  • Author

The White House may be supporting Susan but Abby is not her campaign manager, neither is Fitz as much as they may act like it. Liv working for Mellie is not working against the White House, just Susan and it is her job to get the dirt. It is not Abby's job to tank Mellie's campaign. She could have found a way that didn't but she chose to show Liv what a big dog she was. She lost.

Liv is a monster but I don't think she has ever done anything but support and defend Abby.

Fitz and Abby are on their way out of power, supporting Susan does not change that.

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FiveByFive

FiveByFive

(edited)

That might all be relevant as mitigating factors if she ever faced real justice, which she won't.  She beat a defenseless man's brains out, because she was verbally provoked, and pissed off at Abby who had one-upped her.  She was willing to deal with him right before he started his tirade.  That makes her no different than any other murderous thug. 

A "defenseless" man who was a kidnapper, murderer, committed treason and was gloating about it to her face, calling her a whore and threatening everyone around him (their livelihoods and futures) from a wheelchair because they tried to stop something that he started. 

 

Also nearly everyone on this show is a murderer, I'd be careful about calling Olivia Pope, an African American woman, a "thug" in this climate. 

 

So was it personal when Olivia didn't inform Abby that she and her OPA crew were trying to get dirt on Susan, who the president and Abby were helping run for President, so they could ruin her and get her out of the race?

Abby is not Susan's campaign manager and Abby wasn't upset about it when Quinn informed them because it had nothing to do with her personally.

 

Olivia might not have realized it was an insult probably because she doesn't really care to think about others feelings. Her line to Abby that she could just run back to her old job and be Olivia's lackey again was condescending.

I agree, it was condescending for the exact same reason you do. Olivia doesn't think about anyone but Olivia most of the time but it wasn't meant to be a, you're beneath me moment intentionally. I did also add that I think Abby should have stood up for herself right then and there.

 

Olivia was busy trying to make deals with the man that kidnapped her, but somehow Abby's terrible because she also tried to make a deal with the same guy?

Olivia was working with everyone (Mellie, The President, et. al.) to make a deal with the guy.  The only reason they brought him there was to protect him. Abby worked alone against Oliva's client and Olivia's response of going down there alone was a result of that. 

 

And LOL she should have told Olivia what she was planning? And Olivia would have what - rolled over and let her do it? Olivia would have just turned around and did the same thing she ended up doing.

And yeah! Totally! Just tell Olivia what you're doing and go and do it! Olivia would have been pissed and probably tried to talk her out of it or stop it but Abby like the big dog she wanted to be could have still done exactly what she tried to do but she wouldn't have been doing it behind Olivia's back! 

 

And how exactly did she "burn" Abby, by what threatening to kill her? Abby should have laughed in her face and turned her murdering ass in.

She didn't threaten to kill her. She told her not to cross her again. She'd never kill Abby. She'd also never work with her or help the White House again if it involved her. As for turning her "murdering ass" in - to who? She knew that Andrew was kidnapped and being held under the White House. The President knew.  They would all go down.

 

Olivia would have done the exact same thing that Abby did - and probably much worse.

Olivia would never do anything that would intentionally hurt Abby. She's left her out of things. She's gotten annoyed with her but she'd never try and hurt her or her job.

 

I highly doubt if people weren't running around bashing people's heads in that even in this fictionalized Scandal reality that the world would collapse.

My thing is, "they" believe unless they do the things they do it will collapse.  

 

Olivia does know Jake killed James. He admitted it to her. I don't know exactly how many people know Fitz killed Verna, though I'm fairly sure Olivia and Cyrus knows. Even if there are certain things they don't know, I don't think any of those people really have any illusions about the others being good, except for maybe everyone's opinions about Olivia.

Thanks, I didn't know if she knew or not. I feel like this show has been on forever. I don't think they think the others are good but I don't believe any one of them would admit anything that they did openly to the group. If anything I think Olivia had some illusion that she was good and this season has been about her giving it up and "going home" to daddy. I'm not sure I like this turn but it's more interesting than not to explore her limits. However, it totally has damaged the pristine white hat that she claimed she used to wear. 

 

Although I do think the funniest thing about this episode was that Andrew was down there to protect him from everyone that he crossed thanks to Huck 'n co since they wanted him dead. Olivia did what she could to prevent that from happening and in the end she, just like they wanted to do, offed him. Cyrus in bed laughing at the news report that Andrew was dead said quite a lot. 

Edited by FiveByFive
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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

She was willing to deal with him until he sparked her PTSD by noting everything he could do to her again and gloating over everything he had done, hence the 20 million flashbacks before she snapped. Does every other "murderous thug" (and are you sure "thug" is a word you want to use to insult a black character?) have flashbacks before snapping? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

A thug is a violent criminal, and that was a violent criminal act.  And I was describing her behavior, not insulting her.  A word which has taken on racial connotations, but yes, that is a word I am sure about.  A word doesn't need to be taken out of the lexicon because it has more than one meaning.   She happens to be black while commiting mayhem and murder.  Flashbacks, snapping, like I said, useful for a defense attorney or at sentencing. 

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slayer2

slayer2

(edited)

She was willing to deal with him until he sparked her PTSD by noting everything he could do to her again and gloating over everything he had done, hence the 20 million flashbacks before she snapped. Does every other "murderous thug" (and are you sure "thug" is a word you want to use to insult a black character?) have flashbacks before snapping? Somehow, I doubt it.

This! I have no illusions about what a narcissistic dick Olivia is but none of her previous dickish behaviour have any bearing on the fact that Andrew had her kidnapped, tortured and SOLD on the black market and honestly taunting a survivor about your former abuse? Uh, yeah that's what you get motherfucker, looks good on you. He's lucky that after all the abuse perpetrated upon these women that they didn't just do him Fried Green Tomatoes style. Secret's in the sauce.

Now her comments to Abby afterward fuck that insanity but I still maintain that Olivia needs therapy, serious therapy and tons of it.

She never got any therapy outside of copious bottles of wine when she returned and it's clear she's still in the fight or flight mode as evidenced by her turning on a dime and making everyone her enemy at a moment's notice. This is classic undiagnosed PTSD behaviour.

A thug is a violent criminal, and that was a violent criminal act. And I was describing her behavior, not insulting her. A word which has taken on racial connotations, but yes, that is a word I am sure about. A word doesn't need to be taken out of the lexicon because it has more than one meaning. She happens to be black while commiting mayhem and murder. Flashbacks, snapping, like I said, useful for a defense attorney or at sentencing.

Nowadays "thug" is the word used to describe Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown and most of the other unarmed black kids who've been executed so it probably wasn't the best one to use. Never mind that people generally don't use it on women anyway so yeah, it's sketchy. Also, this is the first violent act Olivia has personally committed on this show abd that's with Rowan as a father so thug? No, and on this show? No. Jake and Huck are thugs, trained thugs. I do not think that word means what you think it means. Edited by slayer2
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Dr Epi

Dr Epi

Yes, what Abby did hurt Olivia's client.

 

But it is plausible that Abby did what she did for Abby's own client, e.g., the President of the US.  As Chief of Staff, she needs to protect him at all costs. She did not want him to take the fall and did not want his to lose his presidency.  So she figured out another way to steer the reporter, using Andrew, to protect the President.  If it hurt Mellie, so be it.

 

And yes, she wanted to protect the President for selfish reasons too- that way she stays as Chief of Staff and does not end up as a professor at a mid-ranked university somewhere or working for OPA again.  But her primary reason, as stated, was to protect the President.  The fact that it hurt Olivia was cherry on top.

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33kaitykaity

33kaitykaity

I was greatly gratified by Olivia's thwacking of Andrew.  I'm all do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again!  The sexist and racist crap that Andrew was spewing to the obviously PTSD'ing Olivia was vile, loathsome, insulting, demeaning, degrading, among many other adjectives that I don't have the energy to come up with right now.  He deserved every single thwack that he got.  

 

My non-id brain did wonder how Olivia got out of the White House not being seen with her blood-splattered face, especially since she seemed to be completely unaware of it.  

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PrincessTT

PrincessTT

Olivia would have done the exact same thing that Abby did - and probably much worse.

 

When Abby's abusive ex was running for senator and Fitz was supporting him, it was Liv who went to run Susan's campaign pro-bono in order to get her elected over Abby's ex... She chose Abby over Fitz, so I personally don't think that she would have done the same thing that Abby did. 

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FilmTVGeek80

FilmTVGeek80

A "defenseless" man who was a kidnapper, murderer, committed treason and was gloating about it to her face, calling her a whore and threatening everyone around him (their livelihoods and futures) from a wheelchair because they tried to stop something that he started. 

 

Also nearly everyone on this show is a murderer, I'd be careful about calling Olivia Pope, an African American woman, a "thug" in this climate. 

 

Abby is not Susan's campaign manager and Abby wasn't upset about it when Quinn informed them because it had nothing to do with her personally.

 

I agree, it was condescending for the exact same reason you do. Olivia doesn't think about anyone but Olivia most of the time but it wasn't meant to be a, you're beneath me moment intentionally. I did also add that I think Abby should have stood up for herself right then and there.

 

Olivia was working with everyone (Mellie, The President, et. al.) to make a deal with the guy.  The only reason they brought him there was to protect him. Abby worked alone against Oliva's client and Olivia's response of going down there alone was a result of that. 

 

And yeah! Totally! Just tell Olivia what you're doing and go and do it! Olivia would have been pissed and probably tried to talk her out of it or stop it but Abby like the big dog she wanted to be could have still done exactly what she tried to do but she wouldn't have been doing it behind Olivia's back! 

 

She didn't threaten to kill her. She told her not to cross her again. She'd never kill Abby. She'd also never work with her or help the White House again if it involved her. As for turning her "murdering ass" in - to who? She knew that Andrew was kidnapped and being held under the White House. The President knew.  They would all go down.

 

Olivia would never do anything that would intentionally hurt Abby. She's left her out of things. She's gotten annoyed with her but she'd never try and hurt her or her job.

 

My thing is, "they" believe unless they do the things they do it will collapse.  

 

Thanks, I didn't know if she knew or not. I feel like this show has been on forever. I don't think they think the others are good but I don't believe any one of them would admit anything that they did openly to the group. If anything I think Olivia had some illusion that she was good and this season has been about her giving it up and "going home" to daddy. I'm not sure I like this turn but it's more interesting than not to explore her limits. However, it totally has damaged the pristine white hat that she claimed she used to wear. 

 

Although I do think the funniest thing about this episode was that Andrew was down there to protect him from everyone that he crossed thanks to Huck 'n co since they wanted him dead. Olivia did what she could to prevent that from happening and in the end she, just like they wanted to do, offed him. Cyrus in bed laughing at the news report that Andrew was dead said quite a lot. 

 

Good grief, a thug does not automatically mean "African-American" at least I'm pretty sure that's not part of the definition. Olivia is a thug. Fitz is a thug, Huck is a thug, etc.

 

Abby may not be her campaign manager, but she certainly works for the president who Liv was happy to let take the fall for everything.

 

Olivia going alone down there is on her. She knew the man was vile and loathsome and she already knew she was having flashes, but still she choose to go down there because she couldn't stand to lose. That's on her.

 

If Abby had told Olivia what she was planning she would have done a hell of a lot more than tried to talk her out of it. And, like I already said, Olivia hates to lose. So she would have still took it upon herself and gone to talk to this man she was allegedly petrified of facing.

 

She told her not to cross her again as she was soaked in the blood of the man she just killed. If that's not an implied threat I don't know what is. If she wasn't threatening that, then what exactly was that line about. "Don't cross me again..." or what?

 

Abby could have turned Olivia in without any harm coming to her or the president. Sure they all knew he was there, but I doubt anyone was going to offer up that information. Just like they were all willing to let Fitz go down, I'm sure they would have had no problem letting Olivia go down for everything.

 

Olivia is a sociopath. So, yeah, I believe if it came to win or serving her client she'd go behind anyone's back.

 

I think Olivia's pristine white hat was beyond tarnished before this episode and her officially crossing over into murderer land.

 

 

When Abby's abusive ex was running for senator and Fitz was supporting him, it was Liv who went to run Susan's campaign pro-bono in order to get her elected over Abby's ex... She chose Abby over Fitz, so I personally don't think that she would have done the same thing that Abby did.

 

That was back when I think Olivia still had a shred of a moral compass, which I don't believe she has now. Plus, that was pretty small potatoes. It was just some guy that Fitz was supporting. It's not like it was Fitz himself or that making that decision really hurt Fitz anyway.

 

 

But it is plausible that Abby did what she did for Abby's own client, e.g., the President of the US.  As Chief of Staff, she needs to protect him at all costs. She did not want him to take the fall and did not want his to lose his presidency.  So she figured out another way to steer the reporter, using Andrew, to protect the President.  If it hurt Mellie, so be it.

 

Exactly. Plus, with all the talk about Olivia beating Abby or burning her, she really didn't. Abby wanted to protect the president and Olivia's gross actions helped them anyway.

 

 

The White House may be supporting Susan but Abby is not her campaign manager, neither is Fitz as much as they may act like it. Liv working for Mellie is not working against the White House, just Susan and it is her job to get the dirt. It is not Abby's job to tank Mellie's campaign. She could have found a way that didn't but she chose to show Liv what a big dog she was. She lost.

 

It is Olivia's job to support her client, but that doesn't mean doing it in such way that even her employees - two serial killers - are giving her the "girl you've gone way too far" look. 

 

It isn't her job to tank Mellie's campaign, but it certainly isn't her job to protect Mellie. It is her job to protect the president, which she did. And as I said before, how exactly did she lose? Was the president ultimately protected? Yep. So no loss there.

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Chaos Theory

Chaos Theory

When Abby's abusive ex was running for senator and Fitz was supporting him, it was Liv who went to run Susan's campaign pro-bono in order to get her elected over Abby's ex... She chose Abby over Fitz, so I personally don't think that she would have done the same thing that Abby did.

But they are not as close as they used to be. It wouldn't be too much of an exaduration to call Abby Olivia's best friend but when she ran away from home...what was it season 3? Abby moved on and found a place for herself inside the White House. Olivia collected broken people and Abby wasn't broken anymore. I thought when Olivia took Susan Ross as a client that was the kind of thing friends do for each other. However I am not sure they are exactly friends anymore. I think this episode might have pushed them over to advisories.

thewhiteowl

thewhiteowl

  • Author

Liv didn't set in motion for Fitz to finally take responsibility for something he actually did. That was all his idea. I think Abby could have found a way without involving Mellie but she wanted to show Liv what a big dog she was. She really isn't but what she lost was the monster (Liv) who had her back.  Liv warned her she wasn't monster enough for Cyrus' job and she isn't. Just like Susan isn't monster enough for Fitz'.  These chickies are playing while Liv is the real deal. That's why I think Liv's client will win the election.

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

Nowadays "thug" is the word used to describe Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown and most of the other unarmed black kids who've been executed so it probably wasn't the best one to use. Never mind that people generally don't use it on women anyway so yeah, it's sketchy. Also, this is the first violent act Olivia has personally committed on this show abd that's with Rowan as a father so thug? No, and on this show? No. Jake and Huck are thugs, trained thugs. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

Generally not used on women -- maybe not, but why would it be gender-specific?  Is her father a thug, but she is not?  Is Huck a thug, but she is not?  There are union thugs (well, not so much anymore, unions are pretty dead), drug cartel thugs, terrorist thugs, ordinary street thugs, of all races/ethnicities . . . but if the word rankles, fill in the blank with descriptors of choice.  She could be an impeccably-dressed assassin, executioner, lethal weapon, vicious vengeance-seeker, etc., but to me, she fits the dictionary definition of thug, which is violent criminal.  That actually happened.  She's well-educated, powerful, complex and uses her words for her living, and she descended into perpetrating a mindless bloodbath the same as all the other aforementioned criminals, real and t.v. fictional.  Young, unarmed black men have zero in common with any of them.

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PrincessTT

PrincessTT

But they are not as close as they used to be. It wouldn't be too much of an exaduration to call Abby Olivia's best friend but when she ran away from home...what was it season 3? Abby moved on and found a place for herself inside the White House. Olivia collected broken people and Abby wasn't broken anymore. I thought when Olivia took Susan Ross as a client that was the kind of thing friends do for each other. However I am not sure they are exactly friends anymore. I think this episode might have pushed them over to advisories.

 

It was season 4 (episode 7)... Abby was already working at the white house, her and Liv were only just back on speaking terms after Liv's return from the island. 

 

I just think that if the roles were reversed with Andrew then Liv would have found a way to make a deal without tearing down Abby in the process, especially given the personal feelings & trauma involved. 

 

Abby did what she did to try and prove a point to Liv, but in doing so all she did was reinforce Liv's point that Abby isn't about that life. 

 

I like Abby more than I like Liv, but I like her best when she isn't trying to be Liv or Cyrus. Abby not being a "big dog" or a "monster" but just being very competent and good at her job is the most endearing thing about her for me. 

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KaveDweller

KaveDweller

That might all be relevant as mitigating factors if she ever faced real justice, which she won't. 

 

I really wish they'd explain exactly why she won't. Did they move Andrew's bloody corpse back to the facility he was staying in? Or did they say he "fell" while out visiting someone and everyone just took  that as fact? This show makes it look super easy to cover up murders and I really hope that isn't the case. Especially for someone as visible as an ex-VP.

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Dowel Jones

Dowel Jones

That was a point I raised earlier.  On such an important person, wouldn't someone want an autopsy?  If they're planting the body somewhere, the police would get involved at the basic level.  Has he no living relatives who would contact a mortuary to prepare the body for burial/cremation?  Does OPA have a mortician on call so they can fix his broken skull up, Godfather-style?

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dr pepper

dr pepper

Burn that white hat, Olivia. There's not enough red wine in the world to drown your awareness of having committed straight out murder.

Might as well made a grand finale: shoot your father, Jake, Quinn, Huck, Liz, and Cyrus.

Then drink something fast acting and painless. Let them find you, flawless in designer lingerie lying peacefully on your bed for one more headline photo.

Next season, the show can start up with Abby and Marcus running the firm and just doing image consulting. They can be joined by a cute young lawyer from Chicago named Cary.

Or don't, and give me no reason to with this anymore.

  • Love 3
slayer2

slayer2

(edited)

Generally not used on women -- maybe not, but why would it be gender-specific? Is her father a thug, but she is not? Is Huck a thug, but she is not? There are union thugs (well, not so much anymore, unions are pretty dead), drug cartel thugs, terrorist thugs, ordinary street thugs, of all races/ethnicities . . . but if the word rankles, fill in the blank with descriptors of choice. She could be an impeccably-dressed assassin, executioner, lethal weapon, vicious vengeance-seeker, etc., but to me, she fits the dictionary definition of thug, which is violent criminal. That actually happened. She's well-educated, powerful, complex and uses her words for her living, and she descended into perpetrating a mindless bloodbath the same as all the other aforementioned criminals, real and t.v. fictional. Young, unarmed black men have zero in common with any of them.

The dictionary definition of thug eludes to someone prone to violence. Olivia isn't prone to violence, again this one isolated incident of violence was brought on by PTSD. Wrt the word you can pretend it doesn't take on a racial connotation but nowadays it does. Wrong word.

Edited by slayer2
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kirinan

kirinan

(edited)

Next season, the show can start up with Abby and Marcus running the firm and just doing image consulting. They can be joined by a cute young lawyer from Chicago named Cary.

 

dr. pepper, if we can keep Danny Pino as a (mostly) reformed Alex Vargas as a love interest for Abby, I'm in. But I must insist on a haircut for him. I'm starting to like him scruffy, but to me nothing will beat his Nick Amaro SVU hair. 

 

Also, just curious: When you say Cary, are you talking about the character from The Good Wife? I don't watch that show, but the two are associated in my mind, probably from articles I've seen.

 

And in regards to the word thug, it could partially be an age thing, too. I'm older, and I knew the word for years and years before it ever had a racial connotation. To me, my siblings, my parents, my grandparents, a thug was/is just a violent criminal of any race, age, sex, etc. It may have a different meaning these days, but there are generations of us that used it for a long time as a general word--just like crook, murderer, etc.--who don't use it or think of it with any other intention.

Edited by kirinan
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SevenStars

SevenStars

(edited)

Thug: member of the Thugee, an indian cult of assassins and thieves who worship Kali, Mistress of Destruction. Once you've moved out of the original context, the term can be used to describe any brutal killer, no ethnicity has a claim on it.

Great definition, I wish the media and society would remember this and stop using it only when they are describing black people who they deem are not "innocent angels". Unfortunately, so far that has not happen. I mean they will call unarmed black kids who are killed a thugs, despite having no criminal or social record showing that, except their skin color, but call a white boy who walk into a church a kill people an "misguided, misunderstood" soul or a gang of white bikers in shot out are not call thugs. It really make you noticed this interesting use of this word when it happens weeks/months within each other. It's hard not to notice when you are paying attention.

So that's why I personally have a problem with it being use on black people because despite it's definition, it seems to only be reserved for black people.

So definitions are great but the reality of how this word is used and who people usually use it on, have a much greater impact.

Edited by SevenStars
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thewhiteowl

thewhiteowl

  • Author

This is not the place to debate the press and their use of the word "Thug" As Mod IMO the original poster was not using the word in a racially charged way so any racial context connected to that word is your own. Feel free not to use it, or report it and I will deal with it. Report, don't respond or you become part of the problem. Thanks.

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

I really wish they'd explain exactly why she won't. Did they move Andrew's bloody corpse back to the facility he was staying in? Or did they say he "fell" while out visiting someone and everyone just took  that as fact? This show makes it look super easy to cover up murders and I really hope that isn't the case. Especially for someone as visible as an ex-VP.

 

 

That was a point I raised earlier.  On such an important person, wouldn't someone want an autopsy?  If they're planting the body somewhere, the police would get involved at the basic level.  Has he no living relatives who would contact a mortuary to prepare the body for burial/cremation?  Does OPA have a mortician on call so they can fix his broken skull up, Godfather-style?

 

I suppose we're just supposed to accept that since Olivia is under the President's protection, he can make it all go away.  That's not as easy to suspend disbelief as it once was.  We can sort of understand how presidential scandals were once swept under the rug, or there were rumors but no proof.  Payoffs, threats, etc.  But nowadays in the digital age, evidence is harder to permanently destroy.  They guy's injuries are not consistent with a fall, someone along the line would know to snap pics, use them in the future.  The reporter who's cozy with Fitz isn't going to be buying it, for one, or her editors.

reggiejax

reggiejax

That was a point I raised earlier.  On such an important person, wouldn't someone want an autopsy?  If they're planting the body somewhere, the police would get involved at the basic level.  Has he no living relatives who would contact a mortuary to prepare the body for burial/cremation?  Does OPA have a mortician on call so they can fix his broken skull up, Godfather-style?

 

Or how about the simple fact that such an important person, who receives round the clock care in a medical facility, was missing for god knows how long, and then turns up dead.

 

The episode did not give specifics as to how long the Veep was in the bunker, but it could not have been simply for an afternoon. And even if it were, I cannot imagine he is in any condition where it is believable that he can just leave the facility of his own accord. Did none of his nurses realize he wasn't there for dinner, which would have been doubly strange since it was taco night?

 

But Scandal is so lazy that they basically wave all the questions away, and we, and the citizens of the Scandal universe, are supposed to just be OK with the main characters making statements about what a tragic loss this is.

 

Because they can't waste time with what would be obvious plot developments when they need to focus on next weeks episode, where Olivia has "the sads" over what she did.

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