S02.E07: Semper Fidelis

[The Crazed Spruce]

Murdock and Foggy take on the DA in the trial of the century, but their client refuses to play along. Murdock struggles to balance his dual identities.

[Bec]

Damn, Karen is Team Punisher on the to kill or not to kill debate. I love this development though. Makes sense, she has shot and killed someone, too. Someone who would have been a threat to other people had he lived.

 

I admit I was siding with Foggy this time. There wasn't really any good reason to lie to Foggy about Electra in the first place. Foggy already knows just about everything. Matt ought to have taken the opportunity to tell Karen the truth, too, when they were alone(ish?) in his apartment and on the topic of vigilantism. All this lying to his friends really is making him look like an ass.

 

I'm happy to see Karen is fed up. Even though she isn't telling Matt everything either.

 

Not a big fan of creating drama from characters not talking to each other for no good reason.

[AimingforYoko]

Foggy's not wrong, but what he can't know is that the case and Matt's nocturnal activities are connected.

[zxy556575]

Not sure if this is the intended result, but I'm starting to dislike Matt and his pulp-smashing, sadistic violence. I think he enjoys it, in and of itself.

[Mars477]

Not sure if this is the intended result, but I'm starting to dislike Matt and his pulp-smashing, sadistic violence. I think he enjoys it, in and of itself.

Oh, he certainly does.  Plus he regularly tortures suspects in ways that are long-term debilitating.  It makes him more than a little hypocritical when he goes off on the Punisher or Elektra for their methods.

[Sakura12]

Yes, the only law Matt's not breaking is not killing people. Otherwise he's doing the exact same thing they are. And I think he enjoys hurting the bad guys because most of the time he goes well beyond just knocking them out. 

 

The most used tv trope has to be the lying about something you don't have to lie about for drama. 

 

I am liking this season more than last season. The Punisher and Elektra are great additions. I like seeing three different people with three different methods of handling situations. I kind of want the Punisher to meet Eletkra. 

[FurryFury]

I kind of want the Punisher to meet Eletkra.

 

Oh, totally. But at this point, she's not developed enough, I guess. I really hope we'll get more of her backstory this season. I'm liking her more and more with every episode, but I really need her to stop being all about Matt. It kinda limits the character.

 

I have to say, I expected the episode called "Semper Fidelis" to have more focus on Frank. Still, I'm glad he wasn't dropped after episode 4, even if he stopped having scenes with Matt.

[JustaPerson]

Does Frank realize that Matt = Daredevil? I mean, Matt made no attempt to disguise his voice around him and they talked to each other for a decent amount of time. 

[VCRTracking]

I kind of want the Punisher to meet Eletkra.

 

Hell, I want him to meet Jessica Jones already. "That was a pretty thick slice of bullshit, counselor" makes me think them on the Defenders will be giving so much snark.

 

Is it wrong that one of the things in Elektra's favor as Matt's love interest IMO is that she's shorter than him?

 

There's already a Frank/Karen ship. I don't but after these last few episodes I can understand!

[Racj82]

Oh, he certainly does. Plus he regularly tortures suspects in ways that are long-term debilitating. It makes him more than a little hypocritical when he goes off on the Punisher or Elektra for their methods.

He's not outright killing people which is the only thing he objects to.

[driedfruit]

The only way I can rationalize Matt keeping the secrets is that it's his way of keeping his friends at an arm's length. And perhaps he's worried about whatever it is between him and Elektra being brought into question and potentially jeopardizing his budding romance with Karen. But that's being generous, the pointlessness of his lying is a weak point in an otherwise stellar season (so far).

 

I do like how Punisher and Elektra challenge Matt's way, without the story delving deep into manpain. Karen getting swayed makes sense for her character and I guess legitimizes the other argument. They're doing a good job balancing the protagonist's narrative vs the other players, including Foggy.

[FurryFury]

Interestingly, this show kinda parallels Arrow season 2, and not just because Elektra's basically Sara Lance in a lot of ways, but also because of the much lesser focus on the lead character compared to s1. I just hope it won't peak at this point and then become unwatchable, because Arrow certainly did.

[Sakura12]

Interestingly, this show kinda parallels Arrow season 2, and not just because Elektra's basically Sara Lance in a lot of ways, but also because of the much lesser focus on the lead character compared to s1. I just hope it won't peak at this point and then become unwatchable, because Arrow certainly did.

 

After watching the whole season, yes Elektra and Sara Lance have a lot in common (along with both actresses having martial arts training as well). It's made me think the Arrow/LoT writers based Sara off of Elektra.

[Ottis]

This season feels like a meandering mess. There are hints of something better - i.e. using the Punisher to question  vigilantism, including Daredevil - but DD isn't established enough to compare and contrast well (DD keeps saying "nobody dies," but honestly, does even he think it makes sense to keep fighting the same people he knocked unconscious over and over?). And now with Frank in custody, we don't see any more about him to better flesh out the differences. Did he kill the people responsible for killing his family, and then stop? Did he kill anyone who was innocent? Where did he draw the line? Don't know.

 

Same for Elektra. She seems more like Catwoman than anything else now, interested in theft and stealth in the pursuit of ... what, exactly? Kicks, I guess. But again, we don't know enough about her to compare much with DD or Frank. Elektra seems to get off on fighting (though does she kill?), a pretty good sign that she is damaged somehow. 

 

They *all* are pretty much wrong if you view vigilantism as unlawful. The fact one says "no killing" doesn't change that. If you think justice can include vigilantism, then we need to see more of their methods to decide where to draw the line.

 

Meanwhile, Matt shouldn't lie to Foggy about silly things like Elektra coming back. What was the point? In terms of his character, if he is supposed to represent a crusader for those who have no voice, then lying to his friend undercuts his own image (to him, and to the viewers).

 

And his "romance" with Karen is pedestrian. 

 

This ep was pretty slow, and the show feels like it is stuck when it doesn't have to be.Free Frank. let's see more about this trio and then compare and contrast. The trial is a boring way to do that.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Ottis

[Grace284]

Meanwhile, Matt shouldn't lie to Foggy about silly things like Elektra coming back. What was the point? In terms of his character, if he is supposed to represent a crusader for those who have no voice, then lying to his friend undercuts his own image (to him, and to the viewers).

 

He knows Foggy would tell him it was stupid and he should stop seeing her. If Matt doesn't tell him, he can rationalise it to himself that it's just a one time thing or that she'll change or that he's doing it for the greater good. Foggy is usually the one who drags Matt down to earth and Matt doesn't really want that at this point. It's consistent, if frustrating.

[Kel Varnsen]

Oh, he certainly does.  Plus he regularly tortures suspects in ways that are long-term debilitating.  It makes him more than a little hypocritical when he goes off on the Punisher or Elektra for their methods.

There was a few times this episode where hr held a guy down and punched him 8+ times when 3 or 4 would have incapacitated him. He obviously enjoys this on some level.

I think my favourite part was the jury guy talking about New York and Frank and saying "where does the insanity end". I couldn't help but laugh considering he lives in a city where the sky literally opened up and space invaders came out. And he thinks the Punisher is insanity?

[ulkis]

There was a few times this episode where hr held a guy down and punched him 8+ times when 3 or 4 would have incapacitated him. He obviously enjoys this on some level.

I think my favourite part was the jury guy talking about New York and Frank and saying "where does the insanity end". I couldn't help but laugh considering he lives in a city where the sky literally opened up and space invaders came out. And he thinks the Punisher is insanity?

I assume it's the same incident they talked about in Jessica Jones? What movie/show did that happen in? Thanks. Edited March 22, 2016 by ulkis

[Sakura12]

I assume it's the same incident they talked about in Jessica Jones? What movie/show did that happen in? Thanks.

 

The incident they are talking about is from the Avengers movie. 

[tennisgurl]

You know, I kind of heard a Karen/Frank ship was happening, and I didn't get it. But now? I get it. Boy do I get it. 

 

Poor Foggy is going to need to get his blood pressure checked soon. The stress from knowing Matt's secret, and worrying about him, and dealing with his erratic schedule and behavior, defending a major criminal in a huge trial with the powers that be threatening to screw his career over, while trying to run a law firm, plus all the random violence that happens in MCU Hells Kitchen. Maybe its time for a vacation after this trial is over. 

 

Matt, just tell Elektra you have other things to do than mess around with her. Now is not the time to get into old girlfriend drama, especially when that drama includes punching a lot of goons in the face. 

[thuganomics85]

Daredevil kind of turned into American Crime Story: The People vs. Frank Castle there for this episode, except as great as Foggy was at stepping up to the plate, he's not quite the master at words and bullshit like Johnnie Cochran was.  And Frank's still more relatable then OJ Simpson, even if he killed 30+ people.

 

Glad Foggy and Karen are finally calling out Matt on his shit.  He really is just leaving these two all alone, in order to go play "Kick the Yakuza in the face" with Elektra. I know how keeps claiming it's to protect his city and everything, but I think he really does enjoy teaming up with Elektra again, more then he cares to admit.  And I also noticed that he is way more aggressive lately with his opponents.  Yeah, he might not kill like Frank and Elektra have, but he clearly does seem to get off on the violence and blood, and I suspect Frank wasn't that far off with is "You are one bad day away from becoming me" line.  Overall, not exactly a flattering episode for Matt.

 

I continue to love that this trial has led to Frank and Karen teaming up.  I really dig their interactions and Karen even admitting that she might understand and even agree with Frank's methods on some levels.  That bit clearly threw Matt for a loop.  Not sure how their relationship is going to survive.  This is a bit more then a difference in films or even political party.  This strikes me as something Matt will not be able to get over.

 

I did love that Foggy's reaction to Elektra was first like "Wait, what?  Your ex who almost made you flunk out of college?  She's back and now a ninja?!"  It really was stupid of Matt to keep this hidden.  He would have been better off just saying she was back and he took her on as client for that sweet payday.  And if he doesn't tell Karen soon, he'll only dig himself into a deeper hole.

 

Speaking of deep holes, what are the Yakuza up too? 

[derriere]

I'm finding Matt very unlikeable and his fight scenes too long and repetitive. If I could change the channel and watch 'The Punisher' instead I would; he's by far the more interesting of the two right now.

[that one guy]

Karen getting swayed makes sense for her character and I guess legitimizes the other argument.

 

I don't think she's been swayed, I think the whole Punisher case, for her, is about shooting Wesley. It wasn't really self defense, he told her he was going to kill Matt and Foggy and her family and friends if she didn't cooperate, and then get to her sometime later. Hence "What's the difference between saving someone and preventing them from needing to be saved in the first place?" or whatever exactly she says to Matt here. Matt thinks she's talking about Castle, but she's not. She's talking about herself. That's why she's taking this case so very, very personally.

Edited March 22, 2016 by that one guy

[Kel Varnsen]

I'm finding Matt very unlikeable and his fight scenes too long and repetitive. If I could change the channel and watch 'The Punisher' instead I would; he's by far the more interesting of the two right now.

I like the fights. The crazy over the top ninja moves are awesome. Seems like a change from the basic pummeling of season 1.

[Lady Calypso]

Does Frank realize that Matt = Daredevil? I mean, Matt made no attempt to disguise his voice around him and they talked to each other for a decent amount of time. 

 

I was convinced the moment Matt first spoke to Frank in the hospital and Frank seemed to recognize the voice. I really wouldn't be surprised if it is revealed that he knows Matt is Daredevil due to that. 

 

I agree that this was not Matt's best episode. This season has him running around and lying more than ever. His firm needs him, but it's more Foggy and Karen doing something. Sometimes, it's just Karen due to Foggy having to worry about Matt's well being. I do think we're supposed to see this happening and we're not supposed to fully be on Matt's side. He's very violent and I think he enjoys it. The shot this episode of Daredevil slamming the professor's head into the glass, then touching the glass afterward and watching it shatter seemed poignant. It was like he was deep in thought about what he was doing. I think he gets too much of a thrill on working with Elektra just because of how violent it is, and I'm sure he enjoys having a temporary partner. Plus, she listens to him and hasn't killed yet. It's like Matt is getting the best of both worlds right now and he probably just wants to stay in his little bubble of everything being good.

 

I'm glad he's being called out, because he needs it. He has Foggy constantly worrying about him and he's constantly dismissing his concerns. That's not fair to Foggy. He also has been lying to Karen about Elektra and his activities, which is unfair to her as well. I want to like Matt, but I think that he needs to grow as a person, and he really hasn't. He's trying to do the right thing, but he's doing it in the wrong way, much like Frank. And you know? Frank's reasons for doing all of this, although extremely wrong, are understandable. I can see why Karen's on his side. But Matt? He's a different kind of vigilante, but one who has let down his friends. I don't think she'll be on Matt's side once she finds out he is Daredevil. Not right away, at least. 

 

Basically, Matt has more work to do and he can't keep running around with Elektra. 

[Primetimer]

And other simmering, but not-quite-burning, questions from S02.E07!

Read the story

[Danny Franks]

I like the fact that we're finally seeing an extended courtroom case for the law firm. They couldn't keep sorting out insurance disputes for an apple pie, or whatever.

Removing the paperclips from Karen's files was a nice nod to how dangerous the Punisher is. Reminded me of Magneto being forbidden even a speck of metal in his plastic prison in X-Men 2. And I liked Frank refusing to use PTSD as a defence.

The scenes between Karen and Frank are so tense. He's such a coiled ball of fury, and she's being pushed into anger by his attitude. But I think he was being honest when he says he doesn't hurt 'innocent' people.

She's identifying too much with him though, and that's coming from her own guilt over Wesley. Which she still needs to come to terms with. Her admitting that the Punisher might be right made sense, given how much of a victim she was in season 1. She was defenceless in ways Matt never has been.

And maybe, if Frank is right to kill bad people, Karen can stop feeling guilty about killing Wesley.

Elektra just brings out the worst I'm Matt, doesn't she? He's more violent, more careless, he's lying to his friends. She's a toxic influence. I'm actually annoyed that he's out playing with her instead of doing his job. And I agree, their fight scenes are getting repetitive. But I like that they showed her being emotionally vulnerable. That she ran from Matt because she'd thought she'd found someone like her, while also feeling terrible that she wanted him to be like her.

Loved the reveal that Elektra put the screws on the medical examiner. I'm actually not sure whether she was trying to help, in her own twisted way, or if she just wanted to get Matt's attention off the case and back onto her plans. Unfortunately, if her intentions were good, they backfired. Glad Matt finally told Foggy that she was back, and came clean about it all. And the fallout was pretty much as expected. Foggy is absolutely right.

And what the hell are the yakuza up to?

[Pogojoco]

I think Karen might've killed more than just Fisk's associate last year. He was posturing when she grabbed the gun and she said something like "Do you think you're the first person I've shot?" She might've been putting on a show, but it's a weird thing to say. She's made cryptic comments about her family "They were religious, that's why I'm not." She nearly gets killed more than once in New York, yet refuses to return to her small town Vermont life?

I love Deborah Ann Woll- she was often the best part of True Blood and she can really act. And I actually like Karen- she actually has a lot of parallels to Daredevil in that they are both insanely stubborn and a bit insane. And I like her interactions with Frank Castle and I like that his most developed relationship is with Karen. The Punisher is the best part of this second season so far.

And I like the dynamic between her and Matt. They clearly are into each other but it's the classic superhero double life thing. He loves Karen for his Matt Murdock, Lawyer of Lost Souls persona but loves Elektra for his Daredevil vigilante persona.

 

I thought at first Matt ended their Thai food/wine date because Karen was agreeing with Frank's view of the world. And then I realized that he realized Elektra was listening. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Pogojoco

[Nutjob]

I don't like Elektra. She is characterized here as a jealous, manipulative bitch with little back story, and I hate Matt for falling for her bull and justifying it with money.

Hoo...I feel better now.

More courtroom shenanigans with Foggy and Frank, please. I don't think Foggy was angry enough at Matt, tbh, and I agree with the poster upthread who questioned why Karen would want to be with him with what she thinks she knows about him. Ugh.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Nutjob

[that one guy]

 

I think Karen might've killed more than just Fisk's associate last year. He was posturing when she grabbed the gun and she said something like "Do you think you're the first person I've shot?" She might've been putting on a show, but it's a weird thing to say. She's made cryptic comments about her family "They were religious, that's why I'm not." She nearly gets killed more than once in New York, yet refuses to return to her small town Vermont life?

Based on all these clues, Ulrich's remark about her past making people less likely to believe her, and her obsession with the question of when it's acceptable to kill people, I'm guessing she killed someone in her hometown and is no longer welcome there. The mystery is who, and why, and whether she can ever get to a place where she can live with herself. Her reckless pursuit of truth and justice definitely seems like a guilt-driven need to make up for some past wrongdoing. She and Matt would be perfect for each other if, you know, Matt wasn't such a dick.

[Bec]

I think Elektra was really trying to help by threatening that medical examiner, as unhelpful as that ended up being. She's not a lawyer, I don't expect her to have any idea this would make his testimony tainted in the eyes of the court. Hell, it might have worked if he didn't tell the court someone threatened him last night.

 

This fits her previous m.o. of expecting Matt to be happy with her practically handing him Roscoe Sweeney on a platter. Like someone else said before, she's like a cat who brings you dead mice and think you'll love it.

 

I'm not sure Elektra is even all that jealous or manipulative. She seems merely amused by Matt having a "girlfriend". And she did hardly anything to manipulate Matt. Okay, like someone else we know, she can be "very distracting". But Matt didn't have to let himself get distracted, he could have cut her out of his life at any point if he really wanted to. She never threatened to do anything to him if he didn't do what she wanted. In an earlier episode she "fired" him and told him to keep the money. He could have walked away then, but nooo... he had to go to her penthouse. Sure, her "confidence was high" (when is her confidence ever not high?) that he was going to do that. But, come on, I agree with Foggy, the problem isn't Elektra, it's Matt.

[AudienceofOne]

Yeah my problem is not do much with Elektra but the way she has been treated as a one dimensional complication. I have started to fast forward her scenes because they're just so boring. Kind of like Fisk and his girlfriend last season.

[Eneya]

After finishing the season... most of the comments are unintentionally hilarious. :)

[AudienceofOne]

After finishing the season... most of the comments are unintentionally hilarious. :)

 I have now seen the rest of the season. And I stand by all my comments about Elektra.

[sinkwriter]

On 3/18/2016 at 11:14 AM, Bec said:

I admit I was siding with Foggy this time.

Me too. I felt so bad for him. Both Matt and Karen seem to be turning this case into something super personal, for different reasons (whether she realizes it or not, Karen seems to want some sort of absolution for killing Wesley, and Matt wants to prove he's not the same kind of street vigilante). Meanwhile, poor Foggy didn't even want to take the damn case, and he's the one who's had to do the most work for it. 

I usually side with Matt in various episodes, but he was a mess in this one. I wanted to slap him upside the head. Foggy yelling at him was well warranted.