S01.E09: A Priest Walks Into A Bar

[Tara Ariano]

A priest who suspects a drug operation has been set up at a local youth center seeks Lucifer's help. Meanwhile, Malcolm finds a way to keep tabs on Dan.

[Rosiejuliemom]

Bullshit! Bring back the priest!

Amenadude wants nothing to do with waffles? Fair enough, more for me.

Next week looks deliciously awkward.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Amenadude is evil.

[storyskip]

Oh I'm looking forward to re-watching this one.

 

I will admit that parts I was excited for from the preview, fell a little flat.  I was really hoping we'd get an answer to the question "what happens if someone else shoots Luci" in this episode. ;)

 

That said, I loved a lot of this and I was like "Noooooooo" at my TV screen when Father Frank was shot.  So an episode that can draw me in and get me invested in a character in one 45 minute segment, I'm going to give it props!

 

I love some of the twists.  Dan is not completely dirty/evil!!!  Amenadiel is evil!  I was surprised by the fact that Malcolm realizes he was pulled back from Hell and who his "savior" was to boot, that was a neat twist.

 

Though I know some people won't like Luci's "human-ness" in his grief, I genuinely felt for him and I think it's also part of what made Father Frank's death hit me (as a viewer) so fully as well.  

 

The piano playing ... all of it.  Yes, it was anvil-icious but those two over grown boys derping ... 

 

Next week looks ... so much awkward.  I do hope there is enough Trixiefer to offset the awkward.

[TobinAlbers]

There comes an episode in the first season of a show where it all comes together and it is a pivotal turning point for the show and lead character and makes it a crime for the show not to get a renewal. For me, this episode was it.

Father Frank was perfect as another person to spar and learn from/with regarding his Father's plan. They crammed it all in one episode but the fact in the end, Frank fulfilled a purpose and conveyed the message from Dad to his son that he hasn't given up on him was just gutting.

Loved Father Frank stunning Luci with the thought that his father's plan for him may not be done.

Lucifer losing it when Frank got shot? His anger and sadness and betrayal was just great. Although I was wondering if Lucifer could even lay hands on a priest without igniting. Also his going full Lucifer in church would've been something to see. Would the consecrated ground stem his wrath or enhance it?

Unexpected nice touch was Chloe coming to check on Lucifer, knowing how upset he was to lose Frank. Her concern felt earned and genuine.

'God has a plan.,

'Yes, but why does everyone always think that it's good?'

Dang, Amendiel, you've already been turned and going all ends justify the means evil. What exactly is YOUR plan?

[Gigi43]

Well this evened out Luci's OTT-ness last week. I really wish the priest had made it because I'd have liked to see him (another piano duet!) again. Tom Ellis had great facial reactions throughout. I thought maybe we'd get more insight into Chloe's view (or lack of) on religion. I really didn't like the graphics of the sky at the end when Lucifer was alone on the balcony... It was distracting and the words/acting were go enough heightened effects weren't needed.

I really thought Chloe would see him do the face to that guy (Doyle?) That guy yelling at Connor to shoot was doing exactly what Lucifer hates getting blamed fo since he doesn't stand around telling people to kill, I don't to that was accidental.

Did Lucifer not tell Linda then "Dr. Caanan" is a fraud? He could leave out the Angel aspect and say he's someone he knows looking for information, that would fit with "not lying but not telling the whole truth sometimes."

Next week looks like it's back to some fun. Trixie better be at that dinner!

[HalcyonDays]

OMG, I loved this episode. Just loved it to death. The back and forth with the priest, Lucifer being upset at his death, the realizations that Priest Frank possibly made for Lucifer. First, and foremost, whoever plays Priest Frank needs to find a way to market his amazing voice, because damn.

 

There was something in my raised Catholic, properly atheist heart that truly loved this episode. Just flat out adored it. Everything worked beautifully. I really loved Father Frank. Usually sermons and declarations like he made would make me roll my eyes, but I loved the former "bad boy" turned holy man, and therefore embracing his beautiful self.

 

Quotes of the episode.

 

Lucifer: "Ten Hail Mary's then and a good shag."

 

Lucifer: "Why does everyone always think it's a good plan?"

 

Brilliant. Just fucking brilliant. Spot on, I can't even....

[izabella]

Lucifer: "Ten Hail Mary's then and a good shag."

 

 

Even better, I think it was, "Ten Bloody Mary's, then, and a good shag."

[gwhh]

I guess Luc is NOT immortal or bulletproof anymore.

So is bad cop with worst mustache NOT going to hell now for doing the Lord works?

[CheshireCat]

Deputy Deputy CoS, on 21 Mar 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

Amenadude is evil.

 

My sentiments exactly. I thought that it was such an interesting twist, that in order to get the one who is perceived as evil, he becomes evil himself.

 

Wish they hadn't killed the Priest. Can you imagine how fun it would have been to give Lucifer the Priest as a friend? I have to admit, I much prefer that idea over Lucifer and Chloe. Team Luci up with a Priest and have them get into all kinds of trouble. I'd watch that all day long!

Loved what the Priest brought to the episode and that he asked the question why Lucifer thought God's plan for him was already finished. That was an awesome scene all around.

I'm kind of relieved that Dan isn't really a dirty cop. That gives me hope for him and Chloe to get back together.

 

And I have to admit in retrospect, Chloe fell a little short in that episode. The guys killed it and I felt, outshone her.

[jewel21]

I loved this episode so much, there aren't enough words to describe how I'm feeling.

 

I loved the priest and his interactions with Lucifer. I loved the piano playing, both times! The second time with Chloe made me tear up, you could see that Lucifer was touched when Chloe said he needed a friend and he realized that is exactly what she is to him. And chopsticks! To this day, that is my favorite song! Ever since I was a kid and saw "Big."

 

So sad the priest died, but I loved that scene of Lucifer going vengeful in the church.

 

I also loved the sky when Lucifer was shouting to God.

 

Gah, so good! I can't wait until next week. I just wish I had seen a preview because I have no idea what it's about.

 

Also, has this show been renewed yet for a second season? Because if it's not, I will cut a bitch.

[Lion]

Really good episode! The casting on this show has been top notch.  I connected so well with the priest that I felt an itch in my throat when he died.  Wish he could have stuck around.  Bummed we still haven't seen whether or not Luci is still bulletproof to people not named Chloe or Amenadude.  Hopefully we get certainty when Malcolm tries to assassinate him.  

 

Very interesting interactions between Luc and Maze.  He sniped at her multiple times and she was giving him the eye.  What happens if she turns against him?  Is she even physically capable of doing so or is her loyalty oath just words? 

 

Really bummed this show is bleeding viewers.

[rue721]

I really enjoyed this episode, too.

 

It was hilarious when Chloe called Lucifer and Father Frank adorable, because she was completely right. There was a lot that was adorable about this episode. I really liked that, though. It's not what I would expected (not in terms of plot, or tone, or Lucifer's character), but I actually really like where this show is going.

 

Unfortunately, Lucifer is taking a little while to find its feet, and that has probably cost it in viewers. I hope that Fox gives it a real shot, because I'm starting to kind of love it.

 

Did Lucifer not tell Linda then "Dr. Caanan" is a fraud? He could leave out the Angel aspect and say he's someone he knows looking for information, that would fit with "not lying but not telling the whole truth sometimes."

 

I think that Lucifer's got a few pretty good reasons to keep that information from her:

 

1. Trying to convince Dr. Linda of a conspiracy theory concerning the angel/doctor in the office next door is liable to backfire on Lucifer and make her think that he's straight up delusional.

 

2.  If Linda WERE to believe him, that would just put her in more danger. Plus, the fight between Amenadiel and Lucifer is personal and hurtful, and I think Lucifer would prefer to keep it private.

 

3.  Amenadiel seems to be a lot more powerful than Lucifer is, especially now that Lucifer might be mortal. Amenadiel can slow time, bring people back from the dead, etc. Lucifer clearly can't. A confrontation between them would probably go badly for Lucifer -- especially now that Mazi has revealed that she's on Amenadiel's side in this conflict. So Lucifer would probably be prudent to let Amenadiel think that his plan is still working, and that Lucifer has no idea of the trap that Amenadiel is trying to set (while Lucifer gets to work setting his own).

 

I thought that it was such an interesting twist, that in order to get the one who is perceived as evil, he becomes evil himself.

 

Amenadiel has apparently been ruling hell for a few years now -- maybe the job itself corrupts whoever does it?

 

Lucifer is changing now that he's not "on the job," so maybe Amenadiel is also changing, now that he is?

 

Very interesting interactions between Luc and Maze.  He sniped at her multiple times and she was giving him the eye.  What happens if she turns against him?  Is she even physically capable of doing so or is her loyalty oath just words?

 

Honestly, they did seem very much like friends who are on the outs. I was actually expecting for them to be more adversarial than they were.

 

I think Mazikeen genuinely believes that she's got Lucifer's back, so the jury's still out on whether she's literally capable of disloyalty.

 

To be honest, she's probably got as much reason to be angry as he does, because he really doesn't seem to care about having her back at all. Why can't she rule hell? Does it have to be an angel?

[Commando Cody]

I really enjoy this show. It's kind of turning into another "Equalizer" type of viewing - with people seeking Lucifer out for help. I was a big fan of Leverage and Burn Notice so I can get on board with this. 

 

I was really hoping that the priest would pull through. He would have been a great recurring character. 

 

I wasn't sure how this show was going to go in the beginning. The devil goes to L.A. to fight crime. Odd concept. Difficult to believe because it doesn't seem to be in his nature, but at least they are trying to give reasons for his odd behavior. It has been getting better every week. 

[CheshireCat]

rue721, on 22 Mar 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

3.  Amenadiel seems to be a lot more powerful than Lucifer is, especially now that Lucifer might be mortal. Amenadiel can slow time, bring people back from the dead, etc. Lucifer clearly can't.

 

 

Maybe he can or could but I don't think bringing back the dead ever was in the devil's interest...

 

Quote

To be honest, she's probably got as much reason to be angry as he does, because he really doesn't seem to care about having her back at all. Why can't she rule hell? Does it have to be an angel?

 

 

Probably, because a demon wouldn't answer to God, would they?

 

And technically, Amenadiel hasn't been ruling Hell, he just patrolled the gates, so I think it's his very own doing.

[GaT]

I'm getting the feeling that all this is actually some kind of test for Amenadiel, & Lucifer is unknowingly part of it.

[Sandman87]

This episode left me cold. Lucifer was being an obnoxious moron even more than usual, and acted as though the question "why do bad things happen to good people?" was completely new to him. Father Frank should have done a better job of addressing Lucifer's doubts about God, since that's part of the job when you lead a congregation.

 

 

Amenadude is evil.

I think "amoral" would be a better description. He reminds me of the  way that angels were portrayed in The Prophecy.

[BooBear]

I liked the episode but am a little confused. I thought Lucifer made sure Chloe was ok in the pilot. I took that as some supernatural mojo, pulling her away from "the light" but here he couldn't and didn't even try to save the Priest.  I am also confused that he seems to just getting the friend's concept at the moment. Clearly in the pilot he was friends with the rock singer what was killed. So I don't love the idea that somehow he is only realizing friends are out there now.  Surely in 5 years he had friends who were true friends.

 

The actress who plays Chloe really failed in the Lucifer anger scene. She should have been far more freaked and begging Luci not to hurt that guy. Her career would have been over of Luci killed him on her watch. She was like 1/2 asleep.  I would have preferred that Lucifer exacted his revenge in front of her. Then there would have been no doubt about him being the devil and I do think that Luci was rather upset because the good father would be going to heaven. So he wouldn't see him again and I bet that really hurts Luci that his father, who he hates, got his friend.

 

But I did like the bomb dropped on Luci that perhaps everything that was happening was part of god's plan.

 

On the guy that is going to kill Luci, anyone think that Dan is going to take him out first? I think in real life if I was Dan, I would take him out again. I don't understand that guy being so stupid. Dan killed him once. Dan can do it again. Keep threatening him and his family.

[Marianne]

 

This episode left me cold. Lucifer was being an obnoxious moron even more than usual, and acted as though the question "why do bad things happen to good people?" was completely new to him. Father Frank should have done a better job of addressing Lucifer's doubts about God, since that's part of the job when you lead a congregation.

 

 

 

 

--I agree re Lucifer's behavior.  I think it was mostly the writing, but also Ellis's acting was a little too over the top, and one-note.

 It was also obvious that the social worker colleague Doyle was going to be the bad guy.  And then the dialogue for him and his acting at the end were bad, almost cartoonish:  "I can't afford to show weakness, especially now that I've just taken control!"  "Bang, bang"

 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Marianne

[vampdetective]

Loved this episode! As a non-supernatural case-of-the-week, it was pretty perfect.

Since Lucifer is a character-based procedural (where the case is solved through meeting people and sussing out their motivations vs. following the evidence), it was nice to have a character like Father Frank that we care about and that challenged Lucifer intellectually, such that "what do you desire?" didn't tell Lucifer all he needed to know about a person. While Father Frank would have been a great recurring character, if he hadn't died, we wouldn't have that great monologue from Lucifer to dad.

Every episode should have a bit of religion or philosophy as well. The show about the devil lends itself to ruminating on the big questions, and it's what would separate Lucifer both from typical procedurals and typical fantasy/superhero shows.

I'm really glad that the Palmetto stuff is over, or at least, merged into the main supernatural arc. Also glad that all the regular characters had a place in the episode. Except Trixie, who I miss, so next episode better have her.

This episode left me cold. Lucifer was being an obnoxious moron even more than usual, and acted as though the question "why do bad things happen to good people?" was completely new to him.

It's not that "bad things happen to good people" (or jealousy, in last week's episode) is something new that Lucifer doesn't understand. It's that understanding something in theory is different than experiencing it for real. I know that child porn exists but I don't spend my days broken up about it; however, if a child that I know became a victim, asking why/how this could have happened and who should be punished would consume my days. As a former Lord of Hell, Lucifer is well aware of humanity's failings, but his knowledge is all second-hand. Working with Chloe (as opposed to sitting around a nightclub as he has for the last five years) is putting him in situations where he's experiencing first-hand all the bad (and good) things he's only heard about before now.

Edited March 22, 2016 by vampdetective

[Primetimer]

Sure, 'a priest walks into the Devil's bar' seems like a joke, but the man of the cloth provides an opportunity for Lucifer to reframe how he's looking at this whole 'my dad forced me into the family business' complaint.

Read the story

[Gigi43]

 

 

Gah, so good! I can't wait until next week. I just wish I had seen a preview because I have no idea what it's about.

The preview was Chloe's mom showing up, and an at home dinner with her/Chloe/Dan/Lucifer in which Lucifer points out he's been trying to sleep with Chloe upon her mom commenting about maybe Dan/Chloe getting back together.

[CoyoteBlue]

And chopsticks! To this day, that is my favorite song! Ever since I was a kid and saw "Big."

 

I think that's "Heart and Soul", not Chopsticks.

 

Amenadiel has apparently been ruling hell for a few years now -- maybe the job itself corrupts whoever does it?

 

Remiel (who actually took over Hell in the comic) went batshit crazy, so... maybe. :) And Remiel volunteered, IIRC.

 

Also his going full Lucifer in church would've been something to see. Would the consecrated ground stem his wrath or enhance it?

 

Lucifer is an angel, fallen or not, and in this mythos, he has no problem walking into the very heart of Heaven. I was expecting him to zap the Spider with his Luciferness and drive him crazy like that guy from the pilot, though.

 

Lucifer was being an obnoxious moron even more than usual, and acted as though the question "why do bad things happen to good people?" was completely new to him. Father Frank should have done a better job of addressing Lucifer's doubts about God, since that's part of the job when you lead a congregation.

 

 

What could Father Frank pull out of his hat that Lucifer (or any of us) haven't heard a million times before? "God has a plan, we can't understand it with our tiny human minds, believe the God, obey the God, blah, blah." Repeating that crap over and over doesn't make it make any more sense than the first time I didn't buy it.

[Bruinsfan]

Apparently I'm in the minority in not being thrilled that the hokey "Dan sees that Chloe is about to get shot and springs out of his foxhole to the rescue with guns blazing" twist was actually used as predicted. Blechhhh. I did like Father Frank and his rapport with Lucifer, even if I'm likewise skeptical of him offering any theological arguments that the latter wouldn't have already heard a million times. In the source material it's an objection in principle to predestination that is the core issue behind Lucifer's rebellion.

 

So is bad cop with worst mustache NOT going to hell now for doing the Lord works?

I would assume that Amenadiel can return him to the world of the living, but the final dispensation of his soul is between him and God.

 

Remiel (who actually took over Hell in the comic) went batshit crazy, so... maybe. :) And Remiel volunteered, IIRC.

Nope, the orders for Morpheus to turn the keys to Hell over to him came as a big surprise to him as he was conveying them from Yahweh. At first he protested and contemplated rebelling, but Duma calmed him down into accepting the responsibility.

[Gigi43]

What makes Amenadiel so very sure Luci will go back to hell upon dying? Has he made sure thats how it'll go with Dad? The church supposedly teaches redemption and yeah Lucifer ruled hell for eternity but he's been making the choice to help people lately. He chose to not to want to torture people anymore. If he dies via Amenadiel encouraging a human to kill, couldn't it have the opposite effect? At the very least Lucifer goes to Purgatory (is that still a thing? I know they got rid of the ever offensive "Limbo") and this becomes Amenadiel's official fall. If Lucifer finds Heaven boring he'd certainly despise Purgatory so there's still reasons for him to try to escape back to Earth for more seasons.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Gigi43

[rue721]

I did like Father Frank and his rapport with Lucifer, even if I'm likewise skeptical of him offering any theological arguments that the latter wouldn't have already heard a million times. In the source material it's an objection in principle to predestination that is the core issue behind Lucifer's rebellion.

 

Father Frank understood Lucifer's actual identity and was speaking directly to him, though. That's different from any other human that Lucifer has talked to. Nobody else has told Lucifer specifically that maybe God hasn't condemned to Hell for eternity, and that maybe he's out because God wants him to be (because God has a different plan for him now).

 

Whenever other theologians have talked about God's love or forgiveness, I guess Lucifer has assumed that that didn't apply to him personally, and whenever they've brought up the idea of God's plan, I guess he's assumed that God's plan for him personally is terrible. But since Father Frank knew exactly who Lucifer was when he was telling him those things, I think he managed to convince Lucifer that there might be hope for him after all, and maybe God could love and forgive him, and might have a plan for him that's not The Worst. 

 

And Father Frank also told Lucifer that he thought that God had sent him to Lucifer. So maybe God is communicating with Lucifer again, albeit indirectly. I think that by the end of the episode, Lucifer believed that Frank was a messenger from God, sent to give Lucifer hope and to tell him that it's OK with God that he's not in Hell anymore. That was one of the reasons he was so upset when Frank was killed imo; he thought Frank was a message/gift to him from God himself.

[gwhh]

So who was the better piano player?

Edited March 22, 2016 by gwhh

[maxineofarc]

So who was the better piano player?

I'm calling it a draw. Would have liked to see who was the better singer, though; Luci has quite a voice.

[ProudMary]

How fitting for this episode that Lucifer's choice of songs to be played on piano has progressed from "King of Pain" in an early episode to "Knocking on Heaven's Door" in this one.

Does anyone know if Tom Ellis can actually play piano? He seems incredibly natural and relaxed in those scenes.

And, on a much shallower note, Tom Ellis has never looked hotter than he did in his rage against the Spider.

[Zipper]

I liked this episode, particularly the reveal that Amenadiel (kudos to the inventor of Amenadude) has a crooked, ill-advised plan for Lucifer.  I think we're not supposed to know if any bullet would harm Luci, or just Chloe bullets.  And I appreciate the potential risk for Luci in the unknowing.  Whether the writers are following a theme that predestination is ruthlessly unfair for an angel (or anyone) or more the free-will/desire/resulting unforeseen consequence with a side of redemption-in-some-form theme, either works for me thus far.  But I truly hope they figure out which is which if they get another season, because those are two very different narratives the latter of which doesn't require much heavenly involvement.

 

Like others, I didn't initially buy the idea that this Particular Priest would be able to shake a little faith into Luci, but Luci's certainty about the unfairness of being cast out and the implications of that judgment may be loosening as he gains other mortal characteristics (even temporarily or situationally).  The doubt about the existence of God doesn't factor in, but other kinds of doubt may creep in-- whether, for example, he could be a prodigal son instead of doomed to rule Hell (even if he considers Heaven so very boring).  And Ellis played that moment, whether hope or doubt or less certainty, really well.

 

The actress who plays Chloe does such a good job with empathy and compassion-- her reactions when Father Frank told the story of Connor's loss and his own were perfect.  And I completely buy the idea that she couldn't do any more than yell at Lucifer while he was getting ready to rip off Spider's legs-- she doesn't want to shoot him (again), he just lifted a huge dude five feet off the ground with no visible effort, and he seems like he is terrible emotional pain and seriously pissed.  She's torn in the moment, waiting to see if her appeal to his better nature will work before she has to take more drastic steps.  I thought it was well-played, a little fear about his capabilities and a lot of uncertainty about what comes next if he doesn't relent. 

 

I sure hope this gets picked up for another season, where the fallout of Amenadiel's plan could open the window for more angel politics.  If this season is about setting up the possible transformation of Devil to something else and drawing lines for the inevitable challenge to his heretofore believed permanent destiny, I sure would like to see how Luci plans to address an attempt on his life. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Zipper

[CheshireCat]

ProudMary, on 22 Mar 2016 - 3:22 PM, said:

And, on a much shallower note, Tom Ellis has never looked hotter than he did in his rage against the Spider.

 

He would have, had he worn a black shirt instead of the grey one. I didn't know how much I liked the all-black ensemble until I saw him without it but I guess they did it because they needed to set him apart from the Priest.

[izabella]

Father Frank understood Lucifer's actual identity and was speaking directly to him, though. That's different from any other human that Lucifer has talked to. Nobody else has told Lucifer specifically that maybe God hasn't condemned to Hell for eternity, and that maybe he's out because God wants him to be (because God has a different plan for him now).

 

Whenever other theologians have talked about God's love or forgiveness, I guess Lucifer has assumed that that didn't apply to him personally, and whenever they've brought up the idea of God's plan, I guess he's assumed that God's plan for him personally is terrible. But since Father Frank knew exactly who Lucifer was when he was telling him those things, I think he managed to convince Lucifer that there might be hope for him after all, and maybe God could love and forgive him, and might have a plan for him that's not The Worst. 

 

And Father Frank also told Lucifer that he thought that God had sent him to Lucifer. So maybe God is communicating with Lucifer again, albeit indirectly. I think that by the end of the episode, Lucifer believed that Frank was a messenger from God, sent to give Lucifer hope and to tell him that it's OK with God that he's not in Hell anymore. That was one of the reasons he was so upset when Frank was killed imo; he thought Frank was a message/gift to him from God himself.

 

This is where I'm at a disadvantage.  I grew up without religion or religious teachings, and while I've learned a lot over the years, I really know nothing of angels, demons, or God's relationship to them and their relationship to humans.

 

I don't know why Lucifer was chosen to be Hell's cruise director, I do not understand why God would need to speak through a priest instead of directly to Lucifer, or why he'd need to send messages, nor why he wouldn't stop Amenadiel from his plan to kill Lucifer...God knows all, right?  He is all powerful, right?  So why does he need middlemen to do whatever he wants with his own angels.

 

I'm digging the show, but I feel I'm missing a lot of "understood" back-story that is supposed to make sense here.

[maxineofarc]

Does anyone know if Tom Ellis can actually play piano? He seems incredibly natural and relaxed in those scenes.

I'm guessing if he did, we'd see more shots of his whole upper body rather than having the piano blocking him and occasionally cutting to somebody's hands.

I don't know why Lucifer was chosen to be Hell's cruise director, I do not understand why God would need to speak through a priest instead of directly to Lucifer, or why he'd need to send messages, nor why he wouldn't stop Amenadiel from his plan to kill Lucifer...God knows all, right? He is all powerful, right? So why does he need middlemen to do whatever he wants with his own angels.

Most of this kind of stuff isn't in the book, it's sort of collected folklore, though my understanding is that Muslim religious texts deal a lot more with angels and whatnot. There's no "real" answer for those questions, though- it's sort of "because for purposes of this show/comic, this is what we decided to do." The general mythology holds that Lucifer was God's favorite but that he was cast down for trying to start a heavenly rebellion, so in this version he got exiled to hell.

[rue721]

Yeah, my parents are both atheists, weren't born into the same religion/ethnicity anyway, and none of their family members are religious. I'm American, and Christianity is definitely dominant here, but I still remember the first time I entered a church, because I was like 8 y/o at the time, lol. But tbh, I don't feel like much is going over my head because of that, because I don't think that this show is hewing that close to the actual Bible or Sunday School teachings anyway. I agree that its canon is coming more from folklore. Stories like Paradise Lost, stuff like that.

 

I don't remember, though -- in this version, did Lucifer incite a rebellion in Heaven? I got the idea that Lucifer didn't actually know the reason why God decided to send him to Hell, or at least that the reason was private enough that it's not common knowledge even among the angels -- but that impression might be wrong.

Edited March 22, 2016 by rue721

[CheshireCat]

rue721, on 22 Mar 2016 - 2:11 PM, said:

Father Frank understood Lucifer's actual identity and was speaking directly to him, though. That's different from any other human that Lucifer has talked to. Nobody else has told Lucifer specifically that maybe God hasn't condemned to Hell for eternity, and that maybe he's out because God wants him to be (because God has a different plan for him now).

 

Whenever other theologians have talked about God's love or forgiveness, I guess Lucifer has assumed that that didn't apply to him personally, and whenever they've brought up the idea of God's plan, I guess he's assumed that God's plan for him personally is terrible. But since Father Frank knew exactly who Lucifer was when he was telling him those things, I think he managed to convince Lucifer that there might be hope for him after all, and maybe God could love and forgive him, and might have a plan for him that's not The Worst. 

 

But did Father Frank know when he was talking to Lucifer? They weren't really clear at which point he knew or if he knew from the start, were they?

[rallymantis]

New to the thread, my bad! as I have seen most of the eps so far.  Tom Ellis is the attraction (nobody faint!), though I feel like the plots are improving as we go along -- this ep, definitely, the highlight.  Loved the "Why do you assume that it's a good plan?" = ranks right up there with the "Captain Chandler" MASH ep ("Is it true that God answers prayers?" "Yes...and sometimes the answer is, 'No.' ") for the heart of that theological argument.

 

And the actress who plays Chloe has finally improved.  She was so stiff in the first few eps that I was begging for Stana (Castle's Kate) to parachute in and take over.

Edited March 22, 2016 by gutette1

[sinkwriter]

(paraphrasing from memory)
Dr. Linda: Has it ever occurred to you that you may be trying to fill a void?
Lucifer: Well, actually, last night I filled five voids...

 

Me: *gasp* Lucifer! Naughty! (LOL.)

 

I'm digging the show, but I feel I'm missing a lot of "understood" back-story that is supposed to make sense here.

 

Quite frankly, I grew up Catholic, and even though I'm no longer a practicing one, I still don't have answers to any of those questions you posed. Perhaps that's the thing about this show (and about religion). There are no good answers, only more and more questions.

 

I really liked Lucifer's final question: "If it doesn't matter if we sin or don't sin, what's the point?"

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Unfortunately, Lucifer is taking a little while to find its feet, and that has probably cost it in viewers. I hope that Fox gives it a real shot, because I'm starting to kind of love it.

It's up against some tough competition. It doesn't help that this show starts at 9:00 and the two reality competitions go from 8-10. The network seems to be treating it more like a sacrificial lamb than something it wants to succeed. I watched this episode IRT because the premise had unusual promise, but haven't consistently done so.

[emma675]

Tom Ellis is a tall drink of water. I didn't realize how tall and lean he was until that shot of him lying on Dr. Linda's couch--his legs went on for miles. Yum.

 

I wish the priest could have lasted a few episodes, he brought out a lot in Luci and I loved their rapport. I also liked the reaction shots we got from Chloe--her expressions when she realized Luci had the dancers dressed as nuns cracked me up.

 

I hope Fox gives this show a chance to find its legs because I would love for it to have a second season.

[Gigi43]

 

Quite frankly, I grew up Catholic, and even though I'm no longer a practicing one, I still don't have answers to any of those questions you posed. Perhaps that's the thing about this show (and about religion). There are no good answers, only more and more questions.

 

I really liked Lucifer's final question: "If it doesn't matter if we sin or don't sin, what's the point?"

Same here!

I'd love to know when/if the people involved with the show realized this specific episode would air during Holy Week. I kind of love it did.

[HalcyonDays]

Tom Ellis is a tall drink of water. I didn't realize how tall and lean he was until that shot of him lying on Dr. Linda's couch--his legs went on for miles. Yum.

 

I was amazed when Lucifer and Chloe found the body in the school, and the camera panned away from them, and Ellis just towered over Chloe - she looks so small but she'a actually pretty tall.

 

I hope Fox gives this show a chance to find its legs because I would love for it to have a second season.

 

I thought for sure this show WAS renewed, but I couldn't find the article, then realized I was thinking Gotham. The ratings numbers are similar, so I think there will be a season season.

[Rosiejuliemom]

Apparently I'm in the minority in not being thrilled that the hokey "Dan sees that Chloe is about to get shot and springs out of his foxhole to the rescue with guns blazing" twist was actually used as predicted. Blechhhh.

 

Can I come sit with you? I hated that reveal, as well. I'm not particularly fond of Dan, and the whole Palmetto thing is my least favorite plot thread so far.

[vampdetective]

The preview was Chloe's mom showing up, and an at home dinner with her/Chloe/Dan/Lucifer in which Lucifer points out he's been trying to sleep with Chloe upon her mom commenting about maybe Dan/Chloe getting back together.

 

How awkward would it be if Chloe's mom starts hitting on Lucifer, and would he take her up on it? Eek. It would also be very interesting if Chloe's mom is immune to Lucifer like Chloe.

 

Whenever other theologians have talked about God's love or forgiveness, I guess Lucifer has assumed that that didn't apply to him personally, and whenever they've brought up the idea of God's plan, I guess he's assumed that God's plan for him personally is terrible. But since Father Frank knew exactly who Lucifer was when he was telling him those things, I think he managed to convince Lucifer that there might be hope for him after all, and maybe God could love and forgive him, and might have a plan for him that's not The Worst.

 

If Father Frank is right about God's plan for Lucifer not being over yet, then it seems God is intending Lucifer to follow a similar path to Jesus -- go to Earth, live among humans, learn love and compassion for humans, and maybe in the end be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for humans. (I almost want the show to go there just to see how apoplectic One Million Moms would get!)

 

I know in this show's universe (and the comics as well?) that Jesus doesn't exist as the literal son of God (or else he would be God's favorite son, not Lucifer). But I wonder if Jesus exists as an actual person that lived who humans mistakenly think was divine, or if he is a complete myth like the Greek gods.

 

I liked the episode but am a little confused. I thought Lucifer made sure Chloe was ok in the pilot. I took that as some supernatural mojo, pulling her away from "the light" but here he couldn't and didn't even try to save the Priest.  I am also confused that he seems to just getting the friend's concept at the moment. Clearly in the pilot he was friends with the rock singer what was killed. So I don't love the idea that somehow he is only realizing friends are out there now.  Surely in 5 years he had friends who were true friends.

 

Since saving someone from death is like the ultimate favor, maybe Lucifer can't do it unless the person he is saving asks for it. When Chloe was shot, she said she didn't want to die, whereas Father Frank was at peace with dying.

 

Lucifer's friendship with Delilah was more like mentor/student. So far, Chloe and Father Frank seem to be the only humans that Lucifer relates to as equals in that he values their opinions and interacts with them on more than a superficial level. His relationship with Dr. Linda is a more formal doctor/patient, otherwise she could be in Lucifer's circle of friends as well. I don't find it surprising that Lucifer never made any true friends in the past five years since he sees himself as superior to humans (with good reason) and hasn't had a reason to question his hedonistic lifestyle till now.

 

I love the songs chosen for Lucifer to play on the piano. It seems like he uses the songs to express feelings that he is unwilling or unable to verbalize. The last two times, the songs followed scenes where Lucifer expressed anger at God. In "Wingman" he burns his wings, then plays "Hurt" on the piano, and in this episode, he rails against God treating sinners and saints alike then plays "Knocking on Heaven's Door." Despite all his outward rage, deep inside Lucifer still wants love and acceptance from his father.

[storyskip]

Since saving someone from death is like the ultimate favor, maybe Lucifer can't do it unless the person he is saving asks for it. When Chloe was shot, she said she didn't want to die, whereas Father Frank was at peace with dying.

 

I love the songs chosen for Lucifer to play on the piano. It seems like he uses the songs to express feelings that he is unwilling or unable to verbalize. The last two times, the songs followed scenes where Lucifer expressed anger at God. In "Wingman" he burns his wings, then plays "Hurt" on the piano, and in this episode, he rails against God treating sinners and saints alike then plays "Knocking on Heaven's Door." Despite all his outward rage, deep inside Lucifer still wants love and acceptance from his father.

 

I had kinda wondered about the 'saving' also and hadn't thought about that twist!  But now that you bring it up I think it fits perfectly.  Lucifer saving Father Frank, then Father Frank expressly said "I am at peace with this" would have been a selfish thing to do because it would have been for Lucifer's benefit, not Father Frank's.  Lucifer still tried to maybe coax Frank to change his mind with "It's boring...." describing Heaven but he wasn't really pushing it.

 

Interesting how Lucifer didn't even suggest Frank was going anywhere other than up to Uriel.

 

As for the music, YES!!  I love the sound editors for this show, no doubt but the pieces they choose for Lucifer to play on the piano are just such perfect expressions of the emotions he's struggling with and his inner thoughts.  I really enjoy how the writer's have used the piano as an extension for exploration of Lucifer's character, not just a simple prop.

[storyskip]

Yeah, my parents are both atheists, weren't born into the same religion/ethnicity anyway, and none of their family members are religious. I'm American, and Christianity is definitely dominant here, but I still remember the first time I entered a church, because I was like 8 y/o at the time, lol. But tbh, I don't feel like much is going over my head because of that, because I don't think that this show is hewing that close to the actual Bible or Sunday School teachings anyway. I agree that its canon is coming more from folklore. Stories like Paradise Lost, stuff like that.

 

I don't remember, though -- in this version, did Lucifer incite a rebellion in Heaven? I got the idea that Lucifer didn't actually know the reason why God decided to send him to Hell, or at least that the reason was private enough that it's not common knowledge even among the angels -- but that impression might be wrong.

 

I don't want to go too deeply into the comic's mythology because there is a comic's thread in this forum where we discuss them but to help a little bit.

 

Neil Gaiman, who created *this* version of Lucifer co-wrote a book called "Good Omens" with Terry Pratchett, with has similar 're-telling' of Biblical stories only with the Guardian of the East gate to Eden and the original Serpent. 

 

Neil Gaiman in his comics "Sandman" introduced Lucifer.  He said at the time he based his Lucifer on the anti-hero type of John Milton's Paradise Lost.  So right there, you have a fictionalized version of a fictionalized version.

 

When Mike Carey picked up Gaiman's Lucifer and spun it into it's own DC Vertigo comic series, the fictional world expanded, as we discuss in the comic's thread so I'm not going to put it here, included Lucifer's motivations and attitudes.

 

Now we have the TV series, which is based off the comics.  So effectively it's like 4 layers of fictionalization/mythos at work here.  John Milton -- > Neil Gaiman ---> Mike Carey ---> TV Showrunners.

 

These characters do reference a lot of Biblical themes, events, other Biblical figures (like Amenadiel and Luci snarking on the saint and his love of honeycakes) but there is also a lot that is simply pure story-telling, with theological themes explored, rather than following the theological basis, directly.

[sinkwriter]

 

Neil Gaiman, who created *this* version of Lucifer co-wrote a book called "Good Omens" with Terry Pratchett, with has similar 're-telling' of Biblical stories only with the Guardian of the East gate to Eden and the original Serpent.

 

I think it's time for a re-read of Good Omens. It's been years since I've read it, but I remember really loving it. Funny AND thought-provoking.

 

In fact, I just plucked the book off my shelf and found one of my favorite passages that (back then) made me say "Whoa," regarding the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and how we as humans don't always see what we should in the world:

 

"No one paid any attention to them [the four Horsemen]. Perhaps they saw nothing at all. Perhaps they saw what their minds were instructed to see, because the human brain is not equipped to see War, Famine, Pollution, and Death when they don't want to be seen, and has got so good at not seeing that it often manages not to see them even when they abound on every side."

[CheshireCat]

I've been wondering - doesn't Amenadiel's plan have a flaw? Lucifer said a few episodes ago that Maze only exists to know where he is at all times and to protect him whether she wants to or not. Wouldn't that mean that she'd protect him if anyone tried to kill Lucifer? And why doesn't Amenadiel know that?

[izabella]

Maybe Amenadiel has a plan for Maze, too.

[Sonja]

The piano playing ... all of it.  Yes, it was anvil-icious but those two over grown boys derping ... 

 

It was good to see Lucifer actually having fun with something that isn't violence or debauchery. Not that I don't enjoy those aspects of the show or how he treated the Spider in the church.

 

I really thought Chloe would see him do the face to that guy (Doyle?) That guy yelling at Connor to shoot was doing exactly what Lucifer hates getting blamed fo since he doesn't stand around telling people to kill, I don't to that was accidental.

Did Lucifer not tell Linda then "Dr. Caanan" is a fraud? He could leave out the Angel aspect and say he's someone he knows looking for information, that would fit with "not lying but not telling the whole truth sometimes."

I was disappointed that he didn't throw Doyle across the church when he was letting him down, but that probably wasn't in the episode's budget.

 

He already introduced Amenadude (thank you whoever coined this, I could never spell him rightly) to Chloe as his brother. Chloe and Dr. Linda know each other, so if he told her something else, the wires might have become crossed. If he told her 'Dr. Caanan' was actually his brother, that would have opened another can of worms in his sessions with Dr. Linda that he very likely wouldn't be too keen on.

 

Quotes of the episode.

 

Lucifer: "Ten Hail Mary's then and a good shag."

 

Lucifer: "Why does everyone always think it's a good plan?"

 

Brilliant. Just fucking brilliant. Spot on, I can't even....

The Hail Marys made me laugh, thinking back to our ridiculous childhoold confessions (our teacher gave each of us a list of potential sins we might want to confess as most 7 year olds don't tend to steal or get it on with their neighbour's spouses) that had been used for her pupils for decades much to the amusement of the priest who 'sentenced' everyone to 10 Hail Marys and 5 Lord's Prayers after a chat about the next soccer practice.

 

The second quote was pure brilliance.

 

Wish they hadn't killed the Priest. Can you imagine how fun it would have been to give Lucifer the Priest as a friend?

Maze would have been constantly nauseous *g*

 

How fitting for this episode that Lucifer's choice of songs to be played on piano has progressed from "King of Pain" in an early episode to "Knocking on Heaven's Door" in this one.

I thought he played it because that was what the priest played before he asked him to switch it up (can't remember the wording).

 

Can I come sit with you? I hated that reveal, as well. I'm not particularly fond of Dan, and the whole Palmetto thing is my least favorite plot thread so far.

Is there space for one more? I don't care about weird moustache guy (who probably can't shoot anyone for a few days while he's praying to the porcelain god after stuffing his face with the entire menu) or Dan. Even if Dan shot him to save Chloe, what was he doing there in the first place that prevented him from coming clean right after the shooting?  If they turned Dirty Dan into Dead Dirty Dan, I wouldn't give a ****; which they are not likely to do because he's apparently a good(ish) dad, so I fear they are in some way going to try to redeem him.

[HalcyonDays]

"No one paid any attention to them [the four Horsemen]. Perhaps they saw nothing at all. Perhaps they saw what their minds were instructed to see, because the human brain is not equipped to see War, Famine, Pollution, and Death when they don't want to be seen, and has got so good at not seeing that it often manages not to see them even when they abound on every side."

 

Wow. Okay, I need to get that book. Sounds fascinating.

 

The Hail Marys made me laugh, thinking back to our ridiculous childhoold confessions (our teacher gave each of us a list of potential sins we might want to confess as most 7 year olds don't tend to steal or get it on with their neighbour's spouses) that had been used for her pupils for decades much to the amusement of the priest who 'sentenced' everyone to 10 Hail Marys and 5 Lord's Prayers after a chat about the next soccer practice.

 

Oh man, I remember that. I also remember making up some "sins" for confession because I otherwise I had nothing to say but some white lie, then being told X numbers of Hail Mary's and X numbers of Lord's Prayers, then mumbling them out in my head as fast as possible because, "really, Priest?" Why not 11, or 13 or 27? Why those specfic numbers?? If I say only 9 Hail Mary's, am I not forgiven?

 

That's why I love this show, the subtle little digs at some of the absurdities of this religion, coming straight from Lucifer's own voice! The "Why does everyone think it's a good plan?" really made me laugh - so dead on and I'm was yelling at the TV, "OMG, he's so right!" :')

 

If Father Frank is right about God's plan for Lucifer not being over yet, then it seems God is intending Lucifer to follow a similar path to Jesus -- go to Earth, live among humans, learn love and compassion for humans, and maybe in the end be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for humans. (I almost want the show to go there just to see how apoplectic One Million Moms would get!)

 

Oh, I love this speculation to death. A "gift" to his 'favourite son", and I'm thinking it's also so his father can also get Lucifer to decide he wants to rejoin his father in heaven, maybe? Interesting.