Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I think she's one of the characters that are bearable in small doses. If you remember that the entire series covered 10 years, ok. But in a binge-watch, it sure must be a lot.

Same here. Although with her horrible childhood there's no way she should be as well adjusted as she is on the show. I liked Lisa Kudrow better as Ursula on Mad About You.

[AgathaC]

13 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I think she's one of the characters that are bearable in small doses. If you remember that the entire series covered 10 years, ok. But in a binge-watch, it sure must be a lot.

Yep. I liked Phoebe fine when she was supporting another character’s story, but I never like Phoebe-centric episodes or storylines. She could be mean and frustrating, but as long as she was just commenting from the sidelines, I didn’t mind much. She was my least-favorite.

[Dimity]

I think you're right about the binge watching making her less bearable.  The episode I saw that ruined her for me completely was the stupid one where they retconned how Monica and Chandler got together in London.  She could not keep her mouth shut and seemed absolutely oblivious to anyone's feelings but her own.  And then they just moved on from that as if "oh that Phoebe" if I had been Monica I'd never have spoken to her again!

[Bastet]

17 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I think she's one of the characters that are bearable in small doses.

I had seen most, but not all, of Monk originally, and not in a long time, so decided to watch the entire series last year.  I quickly discovered - and, yes, this fits in the UO thread, as there are people in the show's thread who watch multiple episodes on a daily basis - it is not a show I can binge-watch, as all the characters become utterly unbearable with sustained exposure.  Monk is selfish and possesses not one ounce of empathy, Sharona is a blazing idiot when it comes to men, Randy is a buffoon, and Stottlemeyer is a jerk (who misses things a rookie, never mind a captain, should catch).  They are all also many other things, so when I watched once a week, they were a great group to look in on.  But a few episodes in a row?  All I saw was their worst traits and couldn't stand them.  So I watched an episode or two every other day or so and made my way through the series.  As the show went on, I really started losing interest, but at that pace at least I never hated everyone again.

Edited July 22 by Bastet

[bluegirl147]

I think what happens with binge watching is we don't have time to forget things.   When watching a show weekly a character doing something might just seem like a quirk but seeing that character do the same thing over multiple episodes in a day looks like a character flaw.  Also with binge watching you notice inconsistencies. I've mentioned this before.  I don't understand how TV shows don't have someone in charge of continuity.  Since we are talking about Friends in the first episode Rachel is introduced to Chandler as if they had never met.  In a later season we see they did meet when Ross brought him home for Thanksgiving and Rachel was there.  That error in continuity was noticed when it originally aired. But other things like changing character's birthdays to suit a plot point always annoys me.

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

I had seen most, but not all, of Monk originally, and not in a long time, so decided to watch the entire series last year.  I quickly discovered - and, yes, this fits in the UO thread, as there are people in the show's thread who watch multiple episodes on a daily basis - it is not a show I can binge-watch, as all the characters become utterly unbearable with sustained exposure.

I watched all of Monk and loved it, but 100% agree. I have on and off been watching it via Prime, or Freevee (whichever one it's on) and can only watch a few eps at a time.

And IDK if this is unpopular or not, but I utterly and completely preferred Sharona to Natalie. Natalie annoyed me from day one so I can't watch more than one of her eps at a time while I can plow through a fair few of Sharona's. It doesn't help that Natalie came in later when the show was starting to decline as most long running shows do. 

Second opinion I'm not sure is popular or not, I loathed Dale the Whale. But then, I tend to loathe all "Moriarty" type recurring arch rival characters. 

[kathyk2]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I watched all of Monk and loved it, but 100% agree. I have on and off been watching it via Prime, or Freevee (whichever one it's on) and can only watch a few eps at a time.

And IDK if this is unpopular or not, but I utterly and completely preferred Sharona to Natalie. Natalie annoyed me from day one so I can't watch more than one of her eps at a time while I can plow through a fair few of Sharona's. It doesn't help that Natalie came in later when the show was starting to decline as most long running shows do. 

Second opinion I'm not sure is popular or not, I loathed Dale the Whale. But then, I tend to loathe all "Moriarty" type recurring arch rival characters. 

I liked Natalie more than Sharona I liked her upbeat attitude. I also preferred Julie to Benji. Monk was depressed in addition to having OCD I think that affected his personality when they had flashback episodes Monk was more positive.

22 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Same here. Although with her horrible childhood there's no way she should be as well adjusted as she is on the show. I liked Lisa Kudrow better as Ursula on Mad About You.

I wasn't a regular Friends viewer did they ever explain how Joey and Phoebe joined the group? Joey and Ross had nothing in common.

[partofme]

13 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I wasn't a regular Friends viewer did they ever explain how Joey and Phoebe joined the group? Joey and Ross had nothing in common.

Joey answered Chandler’s ad for a roommate.  Chandler wanted to give the room to another guy who photographed porn stars but Mr Heckles tricked him into leaving so Joey got the room by default.  Phoebe was Monica’s roommate, but I don’t remember them explaining how she came to be Monica’s roommate when she had been living on the street and probably couldn’t pay much in rent but then again Monica’s apartment was rent controlled so she might not have asked much from Phoebe in rent.  

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, kathyk2 said:

I liked Natalie more than Sharona I liked her upbeat attitude. I also preferred Julie to Benji. Monk was depressed in addition to having OCD I think that affected his personality when they had flashback episodes Monk was more positive.

Yeah, if I were to guess, saying one likes Natalie more than Sharona is perhaps more of the "unpopular" take but I liked them equally.  One thing I liked about Monk was that they acknowledged that he was an unpleasant person to be around. 

[andromeda331]

I've been rewatching Sister, Sister and I'm wondering if Tamera was always so unbearable or that's the problem with binge watching. Her refusal to do homework or work when she has a job is really annoying. Her dad dates her science teacher she thinks the teacher won't give her bad grade for being late or doing a bad job on her work. She wants to drive Ray's car and crashes into the trash can (this gets Lisa in trouble Ray assumes she scratched his car).

She treats Tia like crap. Impersonating Tia when a hot jock wants Tia's help tutoring while Tamera thought at first he was her tutor. She doesn't correct him when she realizes the mistake and tutors him badly because she's as bad as a student as he is. She also almost ruins his life because he gets a worse grade on a test that he needed to do well to stay on the team. The school gets bad at Tia because she's the "tutor". Tia gets a manager job Tamera thinks she work even less then before,  she gets Tia fired because Tamera forgot to lock the freezer (she does tell their boss when she learns though), looking for a rave Tamera keeps telling Tia who's driving to follow the blue car which takes them to the Canadian border (they live in Detroit). in Hawaii to attracted two guys the girls borrow a boat to follow them on the water (stupid on both their parts) Tamera tosses the oars away so the boys will come rescue them. 

Was she always this terrible? Or maybe just because I'm binge watching. Tia makes mistakes too. But she doesn't bother me. One episode I felt bad for Tia she gets a chance to go to a really great boarding school and at school everyone seems more upset that she won't be around to do their homework for them.

[Lisa418722]

I always preferred Mike over Phoebe, but I liked Paul Rudd so I was biased.  

[Cloud9Shopper]

I admit that I haven’t seen the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders documentary on Netflix (don’t have Netflix because of the price) and it’s been a while since I’ve seen Making the Team, but based on the online chatter, I don’t really care that Dayton got cut again and I don’t understand why everyone is so upset about it and thinks she got cheated. She was flighty during her first audition and obviously isn’t good enough to be on the team, but has tried out three times and still isn’t making it. I’m sure she may be a nice person, and I even agree she is very attractive, but at what point do you move on and accept that maybe this isn’t for you? Does everyone just adore her because her mother posts on social media about her and how great she is? 

Edited July 23 by Cloud9Shopper

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

And IDK if this is unpopular or not, but I utterly and completely preferred Sharona to Natalie. Natalie annoyed me from day one so I can't watch more than one of her eps at a time while I can plow through a fair few of Sharona's. It doesn't help that Natalie came in later when the show was starting to decline as most long running shows do. 

It may or may not be unpopular, but you can come sit at my table because I hated Natalie and pretty much refuse to watch any of her episodes in reruns.

I will confess to often having a problem when a major character I like gets replaced partway through a show's run.  I call it the "Unacceptable Replacement" syndrome.  (See: Curtis, Rey, on Law & Order for another example.)

[bluegirl147]

22 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It may or may not be unpopular, but you can come sit at my table because I hated Natalie and pretty much refuse to watch any of her episodes in reruns

Can I join you?  I will bring snacks.

IMO Sharona had an easy rapport with Monk. She worked for him but they interacted on a personal level. She called him Adrian.  She would get exasperated with him but was very protective.  Natalie always felt forced to me.  I also feel like they gave Natalie a bigger role and more plots revolved around her.  And finally I liked Bitsy more than Traylor.

[Zella]

I've not watched Monk since I was a teenager, but I always felt like Natalie was a doormat and an enabler. I didn't hate her exactly, but I also infinitely preferred Sharona. 

[Ambrosefolly]

Better in the Moments That Anger Up the Blood thread

 

Edited July 23 by Ambrosefolly

[JimmyJabloon]

HoTD- So I caved and watched it. More like forced myself to stay awake during it. The show is really really bad. Characters have no personalities. They all just exist to serve as writers' placards for feminism and patriarchy as and when it's needed.

 

The show even looks bad. The lighting is dull, the costumes are dull. The city looks too clean and not lived in like GoT. Even the cgi is bad at many points. Don't know where all that money is going.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 7/22/2024 at 2:16 PM, Bastet said:

I had seen most, but not all, of Monk originally, and not in a long time, so decided to watch the entire series last year.  I quickly discovered - and, yes, this fits in the UO thread, as there are people in the show's thread who watch multiple episodes on a daily basis - it is not a show I can binge-watch, as all the characters become utterly unbearable with sustained exposure.  Monk is selfish and possesses not one ounce of empathy, Sharona is a blazing idiot when it comes to men, Randy is a buffoon, and Stottlemeyer is a jerk (who misses things a rookie, never mind a captain, should catch).  They are all also many other things, so when I watched once a week, they were a great group to look in on.  But a few episodes in a row?  All I saw was their worst traits and couldn't stand them.  So I watched an episode or two every other day or so and made my way through the series.  As the show went on, I really started losing interest, but at that pace at least I never hated everyone again.

I think this explains why I could not make it through the movie length sequel they showed last year.  I had never rewatched any episodes.  Monk was never a show that I sought to return to. But I thought it would be fun to watch the sequel. Nah. 

[Kel Varnsen]

I have been rewatching Stranger Things with my 11 year old and we are almost done season 2 and I realized last night that The Other Sister, where Eleven goes to Chicago isn't that bad (even though a lot of people hate it). 

It makes a ton of sense in how the season is set up. You have to get Eleven off the playing field otherwise the season lasts 2 episodes. Plus from about episode 4 it's non-stop action so a break to go to Chicago is a nice little breather. And in the episode Eleven's sister teaches her how to use her her powers which you need for the final episode. 

Plus it gives Noah Schnapp a break which is good since he was doing so much heavy lifting in the acting department, while giving Millie Bobby Brown the opportunity to carry an episode on her own.

[Irlandesa]

On 7/23/2024 at 11:06 AM, Zella said:

I've not watched Monk since I was a teenager, but I always felt like Natalie was a doormat and an enabler. I didn't hate her exactly, but I also infinitely preferred Sharona. 

They had different roles and different styles.  Sharona was his nurse and was focused on helping him get better.  Natalie was his assistant and her role didn't have a healing component.  Sharona was more brash and Natalie a bit more gentle but I do think they both set boundaries and deferred to him depending on the story. 

It's why I like both of them. 

[Gharlane]

On 7/18/2024 at 10:51 AM, proserpina65 said:

Don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but in what universe is The Bear a comedy?

It's a "dramedy".

 

On 7/18/2024 at 12:01 PM, proserpina65 said:

It really annoys me that Ghosts, an actually very funny comedy, gets no nominations when a show which is clearly not a comedy hogs them all in that category.

Ugh, that show is aggressively unfunny!

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, Gharlane said:

It's a "dramedy".

 

Ugh, that show is aggressively unfunny!

I agree. I really tried to get into because I really like Rose McIver and Utkarsh Ambudkar. But I couldn't get into it and didn't think it was funny.

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, Gharlane said:

It's a "dramedy".

 

Ugh, that show is aggressively unfunny!

I watched dramedies when they were a thing.  The Bear is not a dramedy either.  It's a straight up drama and belongs in that category.

And if you don't find Ghosts funny - I really don't know what to say to that because it's pretty damned hysterical most weeks.

[Dimity]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

And if you don't find Ghosts funny - I really don't know what to say to that because it's pretty damned hysterical most weeks.

Have you seen the British version?  I've just seen the first season so far and it was so, so good!  I'd hate to have to decide which version is better.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Sorry, Buffy fans, but Anthony Stewart Head's singing voice has never impressed me. 

[Mod-Tigerkatze]

Hi everyone, 

just dropping in to let you know that the discussion about combining Olympic events has been moved to a newly created Olympics Small Talk topic. 

Thank you and happy continued discussion "over there". 

[supposebly]

Rewatching Stargate Atlantis, I am reminded that I found Weir the most interesting character and Tori Higginson added layers to the character that the writing didn't manage. I still don't understand why she was written out other than sheer writers' incompetence who couldn't write interesting female characters beyond tropes. 

[proserpina65]

On 7/30/2024 at 5:57 PM, Dimity said:

Have you seen the British version?  I've just seen the first season so far and it was so, so good!  I'd hate to have to decide which version is better.

I saw the British version and was seriously unimpressed.  I thought only one or two of the ghosts had any personality at all, and the living characters were mostly lackluster.

Edited August 5 by proserpina65

[Dimity]

7 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I saw the British version and was seriously unimpressed.  I thought only one or two of the ghosts had any personality at all, and the living characters were mostly lackluster.

I thought it was really well done.  To the point where I've just ordered the DVD that has the complete series.

[Palimelon]

I haven't liked or cared for either version of Ghosts.

[Annber03]

I like both versions of the show, myself. MInd, I haven't seen all of the British version of "Ghosts" yet, but when they were showing the episodes on CBS last fall during the strikes, I did enjoy what I had seen. I'd had no idea there was a British version of the show until after I started watching the U.S. version and people commented on it being a remake. 

But yeah, I think both versions respective styles and characters work for them, and it's interesting to see the similarities and differences. I too also ordered the DVD of the British series, so I am looking forward to going through and watching the entire series in full. 

[Dimity]

11 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

MInd, I haven't seen all of the British version of "Ghosts" yet, but when they were showing the episodes on CBS last fall during the strikes, I did enjoy what I had seen.

Same.  We actually haven't even seen all the episodes of the American version as we only discovered it last year.  I ordered the British DVDs but haven't gotten the US ones (must check and see if they're even available) because we figured we'd see them all eventually.  I do wish we'd seen them right from season one but it's something to look forward to, so there's that.

[Annber03]

Just now, Dimity said:

I ordered the British DVDs but haven't gotten the US ones (must check and see if they're even available) because we figured we'd see them all eventually.

The first season of the U.S. version is on DVD, but the second and third seasons aren't on DVD thus far. Don't know if they ever will be released at some point - I personally hope so. 

[Mabinogia]

I am very frustrated that they haven't put season 2 or 3 on DVD. I prefer to have a physical copy of the shows I love and I have season 1. I can't stand that I can't get the full series. 

I liked UK Ghosts okay, not enough to buy it as I just don't like the characters enough to want to watch more than once.

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I liked UK Ghosts okay, not enough to buy it as I just don't like the characters enough to want to watch more than once.

That's how I felt about it.  Liked it well enough when CBS ran the episodes but not enough to want to see them again or to seek out the later seasons.  Maybe it was because there were fewer episodes and thus there wasn't enough time to really develop the characters.  There are plusses to the longer American tv seasons.

[kathyk2]

On 8/6/2024 at 9:32 AM, proserpina65 said:

That's how I felt about it.  Liked it well enough when CBS ran the episodes but not enough to want to see them again or to seek out the later seasons.  Maybe it was because there were fewer episodes and thus there wasn't enough time to really develop the characters.  There are plusses to the longer American tv seasons.

Exactly during the first season the ghosts attitudes changed from wanting Sam and Jay to leave to being glad they lived at the mansion. I doubt you could get that much character development in less than ten episodes. The first season of the German version will be six episodes long that's not long enough to learn everyone's name.

[Gharlane]

On 7/30/2024 at 12:28 AM, andromeda331 said:

I agree. I really tried to get into because I really like Rose McIver and Utkarsh Ambudkar. But I couldn't get into it and didn't think it was funny.

I did not know Rose was still acting after Charmed.

 

[andromeda331]

16 minutes ago, Gharlane said:

I did not know Rose was still acting after Charmed.

Wrong Rose. Rose McGowen was on Charmed. Rose McIver was in iZombie, Once Upon a Time as Tinkerbell, and others.

[kathyk2]

4 hours ago, Gharlane said:

I did not know Rose was still acting after Charmed.

 

Rose McGowan was in Charmed Rose McIver was in I Zombie before Ghosts.

[Spartan Girl]

On 8/2/2024 at 5:13 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Sorry, Buffy fans, but Anthony Stewart Head's singing voice has never impressed me. 

I’ve got another controversial Buffy UO: Xander using all his precious road trip money to buy Cordelia’s prom dress didn’t move me in the slightest.

Let’s pretend I don’t despise Xander with a passion. I still would have seen it as an obvious ploy by Whedon to make Xander out to be the big noble hero while making Cordy out to be the shallow one taking this long to forgive Xander…ignoring the fact that up until this point, Xander had been nothing but a petty jerkass to her because he was mad at her for dumping him. For cheating on her.

You know what costs less than a prom dress? An apology. But Cordy didn’t get one. She got a bunch a jokey calls trying to laugh it off, and when that didn’t work, he declared he was “tired of feeling guilty” and proceeded to act like a dick, pretending that he never saw a deeper side to her and that their whole relationship didn’t mean anything to him.

And when the gang pointed out repeatedly that maybe things would be easier if he didn’t constantly bait her all the time, he actually defends his dick behavior, saying he couldn’t help it because “taunting Cordelia was what he does” or some bullshit like that. It never occurs to him to just be the bigger person and move on with his life.

Had Xander actually apologized to Cordy sooner and told her that he understood why she couldn’t forgive, and then still bought her the prom dress at the end of the season, well maybe it would have felt more meaningful. But he didn’t and it didn’t. It was just another dumb grand gesture that felt hollow.

So again I say: fuck Xander, fuck that stupid prom dress, and fuck Whedon. Cordy still came off as the classier one for saying thank you without making a big deal out of it.

Edited August 25 by Spartan Girl

[Mabinogia]

I don't buy for a second that Xander ever cared about Cordelia. She was a trophy. She was proof (for Whedon) that the "good" guy can bag the hot chick. That relationship was 100% the creators teenage fantasy being played out on screen. 

Cordi, even if she's stayed the bitch she was at the very beginning, deserved better than Xander. 

My unpopular Buffy opinions are that I hated Angel, I hated everything about Angel, and much more unpopular, I like Cordelia better than Willow. It's not that I dislike Willow, I like her, i just find her kind of overrated. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’ve got another controversial Buffy UO: Xander using all his precious road trip money to buy Cordelia’s prom dress didn’t move me in the slightest.

Let’s pretend I don’t despise Xander with a passion. I still would have seen it as an obvious ploy by Whedon to make Xander out to be the big noble hero while making Cordy out to be the shallow one taking this long to forgive Xander…ignoring the fact that up until this point, Xander had been nothing but a petty jerkass to her because he was mad at her for dumping him. For cheating on her.

You know what costs less than a prom dress? An apology.

 

3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't buy for a second that Xander ever cared about Cordelia. She was a trophy. She was proof (for Whedon) that the "good" guy can bag the hot chick. That relationship was 100% the creators teenage fantasy being played out on screen. 

Bolded mine, great points, both.

Xander (and, honestly, Joss Whedon) strikes me as one of those men who practically break their neck nodding along in agreement to that Toby Keith song "How Do You Like Me Now?!"*

Sick of apologizing, Xander? Yeah, well, Cordelia was sick of knowing you cheated on her.

*Sorry, fans of the late Mr. Keith, but I really, really don't like that song.

[Spartan Girl]

56 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Sick of apologizing, Xander? Yeah, well, Cordelia was sick of knowing you cheated on her.

Xander, like I said before, never actually apologized (or at least we never saw him do so). He just said he was tired of feeling guilty, and that sure as shit isn’t the same.

 

Edited August 25 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

Xander, like I said before, never actually apologized (or at least we never saw him do so). He just said he was tired of feeling guilty, and that sure as shit isn’t the same.

Ooops, my fault. Oh, well, the point stands: Xander is a douche.

[Spartan Girl]

2 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Ooops, my fault. Oh, well, the point stands: Xander is a douche.

No problem.

And that’s why buying the prom dress didn’t strike me as sincere. It shouldn’t have taken Cordy’s family losing all their money and Cordy having to get a job for Xander to realize the bare minimum of compassion for her, especially after he was the one that hurt her. But sure, Cordy was just a mean, unforgiving bitch that shouldn’t have taken potshots at all his petty insecurities. 🙄🙄🙄🙄

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’ve got another controversial Buffy UO: Xander using all his precious road trip money to buy Cordelia’s prom dress didn’t move me in the slightest.

Let’s pretend I don’t despise Xander with a passion. I still would have seen it as an obvious ploy by Whedon to make Xander out to be the big noble hero while making Cordy out to be the shallow one taking this long to forgive Xander…ignoring the fact that up until this point, Xander had been nothing but a petty jerkass to her because he was mad at her for dumping him. For cheating on her.

You know what costs less than a prom dress? An apology. But Cordy didn’t get one. She got a bunch a jokey calls trying to laugh it off, and when that didn’t work, he declared he was “tired of feeling guilty” and proceeded to act like a dick, pretending that he never saw a deeper side to her and that their whole relationship didn’t mean anything to him.

And when the gang pointed out repeatedly that maybe things would be easier if he didn’t constantly bait her all the time, he actually defends his dick behavior, saying he couldn’t help it because “taunting Cordelia was what he does” or some bullshit like that. It never occurs to him to just be the bigger person and move on with his life.

Had Xander actually apologized to Cordy sooner and told her that he understood why she couldn’t forgive, and then still bought her the prom dress at the end of the season, well maybe it would have felt more meaningful. But he didn’t and it didn’t. It was just another dumb grand gesture that felt hollow.

So again I say: fuck Xander, fuck that stupid prom dress, and fuck Whedon. Cordy still came off as the classier one for saying thank you without making a big deal out of it.

I would point out that Xander did not cheat on Cordelia by himself, and I've had this discussion elsewhere so I know all of the arguments. Willow, who was also involved with someone else at the time, tries to badger Oz into talking to her so they can "work things out" until he finally tells her to back off by saying she just wants to talk so that she can feel better about herself, which is not his problem. But when he finally is ready to communicate, they do work things out and then get back together as if nothing happened, since no one ever really mentions it again.

"But, but, but, Willow had feelings for Xander for a long time, and he never even looked at her until she had a boyfriend!" So what? There were several points just off the top of my head when she could have said something, suggested that they try dating instead of "just" being friends, and she never does. There's always the argument that Xander telling Buffy "I guess a guy has to be undead to make time with you" (which is fair) is only different than Willow telling Xander "You'd rather be with someone you hate than with me" (referring to Cordelia) is that Willow isn't expected to cease to exist because things don't turn out the way she wants them to.

I'm fully aware that the fandom's favorite thing has always been to treat Xander as if he's some kind of monster and that the other characters (especially Buffy, which is a whole other conversation) never do anything wrong, but that's also how we got Spike as Romantic Hero instead of him filling up a vacuum cleaner bag. If Xander really is Joss' self insert, whose self-insert do we suppose Spike is?

[Palimelon]

Spike + Buffy = gross.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

If Xander really is Joss' self insert, whose self-insert do we suppose Spike is?

Apparently Spike/Buffy was Marti Noxon's fantasy. I'd still take Spike over Angel any day.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm fully aware that the fandom's favorite thing has always been to treat Xander as if he's some kind of monster and that the other characters (especially Buffy, which is a whole other conversation) never do anything wrong, but that's also how we got Spike as Romantic Hero instead of him filling up a vacuum cleaner bag. If Xander really is Joss' self insert, whose self-insert do we suppose Spike is?

Oh, I think parts of Spike were Joss’s self-insert too. And that’s all I will say about that.

[supposebly]

All this talk of self inserts is quite nauseating. Not you guys, just my thoughts of writer inserts in the context of Buffy.