S01.E05: The Race Card

[helenamonster]

There was definitely a point in this episode where I forgot that this was based on true events. One of the prosecution scenes, I think, where I just kind of thought to myself, "Marcia should really be listening to Chris, they're gonna lose if she doesn't." And then I remembered that I knew the outcome of this whole thing. I can't tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing, that I'm starting to forget the very real nature of this narrative. I'm gonna go with good for now. It means it's sucking me in and holding my attention.

 

Regarding Clark picking Darden and then not listening when he tried to give his insight as a black man...I think she believed in his competence but also realized how beneficial he would be for the "optics" (anachronistic term but the one this show is using). Unfortunately, I think her own color-blindness and that she had done so well with black women in the past prevented her from seeing that Darden's perspective could be much more beneficial to the prosecution than she had previously realized. Her hubris has gotten in the way of so many things already, why not this?

 

 

Are you talking about this poster? I think many people have that piece of art in their homes. It was a popular painting by Normal Rockwell, called "The Problem We All Live With." OJ may not really have owned it, but Johnny Cochran did and plenty of people, black and white, also do.

 

Ah, ok. Didn't realize it was famous/a Rockwell. I just saw it for a quick second then heard Cochran say "Here's Ruby!" and was like whaaa? My bad on that one. It's a powerful piece.

[Anela]

Vance is doing a great job. I forge that it's him, instead of Cochran. 

I love Darden, and I felt bad for him, too. I'm not sure Johnny was doing him a favour - but I'm not sure he'd be able to tell, since he's usually trying to psyche him out. 

 

I think I'm going to have trouble watching the rest of it. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Anela

[marsha]

John Travolta's performance in this show rates right up there with Patty Duke in Valley of the Dolls. Seldom do you ever see scenery chewed so exquisitely! I'm patiently waiting for the moment he bangs the courtroom table and says "Oh Robert, Robert, Robert .... ROBERT SHAPIRO!".

 

I wasn't sure I was going to keep watching it after the first episode but I'm in all the way now. Some really excellent acting from Sarah Paulson, Courtney B. Vance and Robert Morse's Dominick Dunne is flawless! Also thought Connie Britton was fabulous as Faye Resnick. It made me wish they had made her character on Nashville more of a cutthroat Diva instead of Mother St. Rayna of The Grand Ole Opry.

[VCRTracking]

Are you talking about this poster? I think many people have that piece of art in their homes. It was a popular painting by Normal Rockwell, called "The Problem We All Live With." OJ may not really have owned it, but Johnny Cochran did and plenty of people, black and white, also do.

 

Ah, ok. Didn't realize it was famous/a Rockwell. I just saw it for a quick second then heard Cochran say "Here's Ruby!" and was like whaaa? My bad on that one. It's a powerful piece.

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It's interesting that Cochran swapped one famous Rockwell painting for another.  The one OJ had of a kids playing football was done in Rockwell's early days painting covers for the Saturday Evening Post when the subject matter was more cute, folksy , Tom Sawyer-esque, Americana stuff.

 

The painting Cochran replaced it with was in the later Rockwell years when he was doing more contemporary subjects and reportage like the one of Ruby Bridges.

 

Great interview with Sterling K. Brown about playing Darden:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/sterling-k-brown-christopher-darden-people-v-oj-simpson.html#

[CeeBeeGee]

Johnnie Cochran did not introduce the race card into the trial, it was already there.  He just capitalized on it all the way to an acquittal.  Don't hate the player, hate the game.  He was a defense attorney, his job was to tell a better story than the prosecution to get people off. 

 

Johnnie Cochran was not "disgraceful" or "disgusting" to Christopher Darden.  It was not JC's job to skip through the tulips and sing Kumbaya to Christopher Darden.  Darden had been warned to stay away from this case by his dad and JC gave CD a heads up about how the prosecution was using him and setting him up to fail (Fuhrman).  Christopher Darden himself knew Fuhrman was bad news & that he was being set up to fail.  If anyone was disgraceful to Christopher Darden it was Marcia Clark & the prosecution who used him as a black token.  Johnnie Cochran was lending Christopher Darden a helping hand by telling him to stay out of the trap.

 

Ignoring a man's professional accomplishments and chalking up his position on the team due to his color, as well as baiting him in the press, is indeed disgraceful. And unprofessional. And obviously Darden felt that way as well--who are you to tell him he shouldn't object? If someone had treated Cochrane that way, he would've (rightfully) screamed bloody murder. And yes, he did indeed introduce race into the case. There has never been one shred of evidence that anyone framed him, much less that it was racially motivated. Remember, the LAPD loved OJ--that's why he got away with beating Nicole, that's why he was allowed to turn himself in (an accused double murderer! The LAPD laid down the red carpet for him until he broke and ran like the cockroach he is).

 

This case was always about domestic violence--about ongoing brutality in the home that was perpetuated by a violently jealous and narcissistic man against his wife, brutality that was overlooked and minimized by everyone else in that poor woman's life, and how that culminated in one deliberate murder, one spontaneous. Not only did Cochrane hijack the case to address his own cause (a very good cause but one which was irrelevant in this case), he did a grave disservice to women everywhere by ignoring the larger implications. Had someone hijacked Trayvon Martin's case or Rodney King's to address, say, child abuse or sexual violence against women--also very good causes but irrelevant to those particular cases--I would be equally outraged (much as it's disgusting to hijack "Black Lives Matter" discussions with the sanctimonious "All Lives Matter"--yes of course they do, but that's not what this is about right now). You can argue Cochrane was "playing the game," and certainly he had an obligation to execute the best defense he could, but cases like this always have larger social and cultural implications which is why we're still discussing it. Cochrane knew this, and knew very well he would be making his name with this case--he can take the blowback with the adultation. Sorry, it's not a "game" to me, or to anyone who cares about domestic violence. The simple fact is that justice was not served here--that smirking murderous POS got away with double murder just as his battered ex-wide predicted, and Cochrane gloated at the verdict.

[CeeBeeGee]

It's interesting that Cochran swapped one famous Rockwell painting for another.  The one OJ had of a kids playing football was done in Rockwell's early days painting covers for the Saturday Evening Post when the subject matter was more cute, folksy , Tom Sawyer-esque, Americana stuff.

 

The painting Cochran replaced it with was in the later Rockwell years when he was doing more contemporary subjects and reportage like the one of Ruby Bridges.

 

Great interview with Sterling K. Brown about playing Darden:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/sterling-k-brown-christopher-darden-people-v-oj-simpson.html#

 

I noticed that as well! Rockwell had a powerful social conscience and followed the civil rights movement closely. One of my favorite paintings of his is called Murder in Mississippi and depicts (as he imagined it, before we knew any details) the last moments of the lives of the three murdered civil rights workers in Neshoba County (James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Mickey Schwerner--the movie Mississippi Burning is about the investigation of this case).

 

 

[RedheadZombie]

Ignoring a man's professional accomplishments and chalking up his position on the team due to his color, as well as baiting him in the press, is indeed disgraceful. And unprofessional. And obviously Darden felt that way as well--who are you to tell him he shouldn't object? If someone had treated Cochrane that way, he would've (rightfully) screamed bloody murder. And yes, he did indeed introduce race into the case. There has never been one shred of evidence that anyone framed him, much less that it was racially motivated. Remember, the LAPD loved OJ--that's why he got away with beating Nicole, that's why he was allowed to turn himself in (an accused double murderer! The LAPD laid down the red carpet for him until he broke and ran like the cockroach he is).

 

This case was always about domestic violence--about ongoing brutality in the home that was perpetuated by a violently jealous and narcissistic man against his wife, brutality that was overlooked and minimized by everyone else in that poor woman's life, and how that culminated in one deliberate murder, one spontaneous. Not only did Cochrane hijack the case to address his own cause (a very good cause but one which was irrelevant in this case), he did a grave disservice to women everywhere by ignoring the larger implications. Had someone hijacked Trayvon Martin's case or Rodney King's to address, say, child abuse or sexual violence against women--also very good causes but irrelevant to those particular cases--I would be equally outraged (much as it's disgusting to hijack "Black Lives Matter" discussions with the sanctimonious "All Lives Matter"--yes of course they do, but that's not what this is about right now). You can argue Cochrane was "playing the game," and certainly he had an obligation to execute the best defense he could, but cases like this always have larger social and cultural implications which is why we're still discussing it. Cochrane knew this, and knew very well he would be making his name with this case--he can take the blowback with the adultation. Sorry, it's not a "game" to me, or to anyone who cares about domestic violence. The simple fact is that justice was not served here--that smirking murderous POS got away with double murder just as his battered ex-wide predicted, and Cochrane gloated at the verdict.

 

It is shameful how he treated Darden, and I think it was very personal.  I also found it quite hypocritical that for all his whining about unfair treatment of blacks, he made his black co-counsel take the fall for the white man's (Shapiro) mistake.  I can't imagine how he would have reacted if Shapiro had suggested this strategy.

[Umbelina]

According to Darden’s memoir, the defense was unconcerned about Hodgman’s health:

    The defense lawyers were delighted that he was out of the picture. As we left chambers, Cochran, Douglas, and the others could barely contain themselves.

    “We almost killed Hodgman,” they joked.

    “I guess he couldn’t handle your opening statement,” Douglas said. They laughed like children, the cold, insensitive bastards.

 

Wow, from the Vanity Fair link above.  Just wow.

[Avaleigh]

The scenes with Dominick Dunne were my favorite. I wish they'd given a shout out to whose house that was supposed to be. 

I love the casting of Robert Morse as Dunne, because so much of Dunne's writing was a reaction to, and reflection of Truman Capote's life, going so far as to create a character, Basil Plant, who was a Capote doppelganger...and Dunne was fully as much of a starfucker and gossip as Capote. Morse played Capote on Broadway in 'Tru' and won a Tony for it. He must find that symmetry kind of delicious. I do, anyway.

I had no idea that Morse played Capote. I came to post how much that dinner scene reminded me of him. 

[Spartan Girl]

It is shameful how he treated Darden, and I think it was very personal.  I also found it quite hypocritical that for all his whining about unfair treatment of blacks, he made his black co-counsel take the fall for the white man's (Shapiro) mistake.  I can't imagine how he would have reacted if Shapiro had suggested this strategy.

Know what else was shameless and hypocritical? Making OJ's house look "more African American" with "blacker kids" to boot. It's bad enough that he helped their father get away with murdering their mother...but to replace their pictures, and basically imply that it's not okay to have biracial kids?! THAT'S racism too, asshole!

I mean it's bad enough when white people stereotype other cultures, but when they do it to each other under the front of promoting black unity?! That's the lowest of low.

[Jade Foxx]

 

The simple fact is that justice was not served here--

 

I understand, and agree with most of your well-made points.

 

If only life, the real world were as clear cut and simplistic. If only the criminal justice system were as clear cut, and simplistic. Miscarriages of justice happen all the time, for technical, or fantastical reasons. The simple truth is that OJ murdered Nicole and Ron, but because of the perfect storm that was OJ's celebrity, his ability to hire the "Dream Team," the rampant racism within LAPD, an over-confident DA's office, an idiot of a judge, etc, etc. - all those factors did play a role in this travesty. Lots of people get caught up on the race angle ALONE.

 

The thing that bothers me (the general feeling I get from some comments, not all) is that when it comes to OJ being declared not guilty -  it's ZOMMG, the system failed, how could this happen, someone MUST pay, it's absolutely unacceptable (and it is), but when others, who are/have been the historic recipients of "miscarriages of justice" day in and out, (brown, black, and poor folk), it's kind of shrugged off like, HUNH, WELP, THEMS THE BREAKS.

 

So I'm thinking, maybe something so inconceivable, so jarring, so outrageous had to happen in order for EVERYONE to see injustice as the problem that it was/is (especially in that era in Los Angeles) - and begin to address and deconstruct it honestly. Because it we don't, something going to come around again and smack us all in our shocked, collective little faces. (oh wait...Trayvon Martin, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice)

 

And YES - domestic violence and it's escalation to the rage murder was what the case SHOULD HAVE been about. Here's the kicker: much to my heartbreak and horror, less than 10 years after the OJ verdict came down, my younger sister was murdered by her abusive boyfriend in college. Hello, criminal justice system - that shit is not for the weak. His defense lawyers did everything under the sun, resorted to very ugly tactics to get her murderer off. We had to deal with the smearing, the low blows, a smirky defendant, etc. (He ended up being sentenced to life without parole.) At any rate, what I'm saying is - a defense attorney is going to TRY to "derail" the case in every way possible - sometimes it works, sometimes not. Nicole and Ron were just as special, though not more so, than my little sister; whose name the public doesn't even know. Each of them deserves justice. It still pains me that the Brown/Goldman's didn't receive it in the criminal case. 

 

But, now OJ's in prison, whaddayaknow. 

 

Real life can be messy (and poetic) like that.

 

ETA: I'm black, and a woman, just in case my stats make any difference on how this is perceived. Edited again to include Ron as a murder victim as well. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Jade Foxx

[VanillaBeanne]

Wow, from the Vanity Fair link above.  Just wow.

Yeah, but he didn't collapse in chambers but later in the day. He was apoplectic in chambers and I can understand that the defense was happy that they made him lose his cool.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but he didn't collapse in chambers but later in the day. He was apoplectic in chambers and I can understand that the defense was happy that they made him lose his cool.

I know, but that would have required another scene, set up, lighting, etc.  I see why they condensed that.  It would be impossible to show everything in well under 10 hours of TV.

 

Meanwhile, from the Rolling Stone link: 

 

Cochran started his opening with the Martin Luther King Jr. quote, but what he presented to the jury (and the cameras) that morning was longer, and darker, than what we see on the show. Before he got to the full roster of surprise witnesses, the defense star — dressed in a periwinkle suit with a striped shirt and tie, not a conservative number as he is on the show — took time to list every one of Nicole's post-divorce sexual partners. (The idea was to disparage her before, in particular, the black female jurors.) Hodgman objected 13 times — and Douglas defended his team with their usual "mea culpa" approach — but he did not have a heart attack in Ito's courtroom.

 

It wasn't until later that day, as he and Clark briefed District Attorney Gil Garcetti on the day's happenings, that he had the chest pains that would send him to the hospital, and take him off the case.

 

ETA, I'm so sorry about your sister Jade Foxx.  My brother was murdered as well, and his killers (all young kids trying to get into a motorcycle gang that required a murder) were not prosecuted because of their age.  Luckily, the one who actually did the killing died a few years later, somehow his car went off the road after a drug buy. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[CeeBeeGee]

I agree, and understand with most of your well-made points.

 

If only life, the real world were as clear cut and simplistic. If only the criminal justice system were as clear cut, and simplistic. Miscarriages of justice happen all the time, for technical, or fantastical reasons. The simple truth is that OJ murdered Nicole, but because of the perfect storm that was OJ's celebrity, his ability to hire the "Dream Team," the rampant racism within LAPD, an over-confident DA's office, an idiot of a judge, etc, etc. - all those factors did play a role in this travesty. Lots of people get caught up on the race angle ALONE.

 

The thing that bothers me, is the general feeling I get from some comments are that when it comes to OJ being declared not guilty -  it's ZOMMG, the system failed, how could this happen, it's absolutely unacceptable (and it is), but when others, who are/have been the historic recipients of "miscarriages of justice" (brown, black, and poor folk), it's kind of shrugged off like, WELP, THEMS THE BREAKS.

 

So I'm thinking, maybe something so inconceivable, so jarring, so outrageous had to happen in order for EVERYONE to see injustice as the problem that it was/is (especially in that era in Los Angeles) - and begin to address and deconstruct it honestly.

 

And YES - domestic violence and it's escalation to the rage murder was what the case SHOULD HAVE been about. Here's the kicker: much to my horror, less than 10 years after the OJ verdict came down, my younger sister was murdered by her abusive boyfriend in college. His defense lawyers did everything under the sun, some very ugly tactics indeed to get her murderer off. (He ended up being sentenced to life without parole.) At any rate, what I'm saying is - a defense attorney is going to TRY to "derail" the case in every way possible - sometimes it works, sometimes not.

 

Real life is messy like that.

 

ETA: I'm black, and a woman, just in case my stats make any difference. 

 

I am so, so sorry about your sister. That is just awful, and so horribly sad. You have incredible courage to watch this, or even be thinking about the Simpson case.

 

After Trayvon Martin I felt a similar sense of outrage--such a clear-cut case of evil, it was SO clear-cut to me, I raged for weeks about that dumbass jury (especially the woman who said afterward she "knew in her heart" that Zimmerman couldn't have murdered Trayvon. How could you know that if he didn't testify and you swore under oath during voir dire that you hadn't followed the media about the case?!). Honestly after a case like that (and the Simpson case, and of course the King case), you really have to start wondering why we even have a jury system. Juries are so dumb sometimes, so easily led by their prejudices, so distracted by stupid stuff. I served on a jury and as far as I could tell from the deliberations we took it quite seriously and went over every bit of evidence we could, but there were no "hot button" issues in that case, just a simple case of perjury.

 

And I do know that of course Cochrane was going to try to derail the case--it's just the gloating at the verdict, the hypocritical taunting of Darden, the "blackifying" of OJ's house (complete with, as one poster noted, eliminating any pictures of poor Sydney and Justin), it's just so upsetting to me and I imagine it must've been ten times worse to the Brown and Goldman families. I guess at such times we have to take comfort in the civil trial, and the Las Vegas case. It may have taken a while but at least OJ is behind bars for now.

[VanillaBeanne]

Know what else was shameless and hypocritical? Making OJ's house look "more African American" with "blacker kids" to boot. It's bad enough that he helped their father get away with murdering their mother...but to replace their pictures, and basically imply that it's not okay to have biracial kids?! THAT'S racism too, asshole!

I mean it's bad enough when white people stereotype other cultures, but when they do it to each other under the front of promoting black unity?! That's the lowest of low.

See that's where the show took liberties. There was at least one pic of the kids with OJs white girlfriend per the nytimes article from the time. The show really overplayed the black washing. Edited March 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[Jade Foxx]

 

And I do know that of course Cochrane was going to try to derail the case--it's just the gloating at the verdict, the hypocritical taunting of Darden, the "blackifying" of OJ's house (complete with, as one poster noted, eliminating any pictures of poor Sydney and Justin), it's just so upsetting to me and I imagine it must've been ten times worse to the Brown and Goldman families. I guess at such times we have to take comfort in the civil trial, and the Las Vegas case. It may have taken a while but at least OJ is behind bars for now.

^^^ AGREED!

 

Thanks, Umbelina & CeeBeeGee.

 

And Umbelina, I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your brother. (couldn't bring myself to "like" the post) Life just isn't fair. I'm sorry for all the family of murder victims and domestic violence on these boards. People don't understand what it does to you, your family, and loved ones. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Jade Foxx

[VanillaBeanne]

I know, but that would have required another scene, set up, lighting, etc. I see why they condensed that. It would be impossible to show everything in well under 10 hours of TV

I don't get your clarification. In real life, the defense did not know hodgman was having a medical issue. No one did until later in the day. So why are the defense attorneys monsters for gloating after the day in chambers. They just thought they made him lose his cool. Edited March 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[Umbelina]

I don't get your clarification. In real life, the defense did not know hodgman was having a medical issue. No one did until later in the day. So why are the defense attorneys monsters for gloating after the day in chambers. They just thought they made him lose his cool.

Yes, they knew, and they laughed about it.  Read the excerpt from Rolling Stone.  They didn't know about it AT THE MOMENT it happened.

 

I'm just saying, condensing that scene didn't bother me, if it bothered me at all, it's that the show didn't SHOW Cochran in his electric blue suit denigrating Nicole for a good long time BEFORE springing the witnesses on the prosecution.   With a stronger judge, that could have been a huge problem for Cochran's team.

 

Thanks Jade Foxx, he was about Ron's age, just out of the army.  Maybe that's why I understand the Goldman's rage and grief so very well.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm so sorry about what happened to your sister, Jade Foxx and your brother, Umbelina. Life just is NOT fair when it hits us with such tragedy.

 

Let me say, if I hadn't before, that I am also a POC; actually East-Indian, and I raged over the verdict in this case, as well as in Trayvon Martin's case, and though I was born and raised here, I raged over the measly sentences the men who had gang-raped and murdered the woman in New Delhi, India, four years ago. Not just at the rapists themselves, but I was gobsmacked at the attitudes of the defense attorneys. In comparison, rape victims in this country are treated so much better. And most are treated horribly here. So that's saying something.  I really did naively think, and believe that OJ would be found guilty, considering the amount of evidence the State had.  I know better now, and am much more cynical.

 

And I don't know if it's just me, but I had to rewind and watch the scenes of when Cochran was removing the stuff in OJ's house with "black art" and pictures, because for a hot second, I thought that the pictures were of the real OJ and not Cuba!

Edited March 3, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[smiley13]

Dominick Dunne was a creepy man to me.  He was relishing in the tawdry details of a double murder to his rich friends.  Then he stopped speaking with the black servants entered the room?  

 

Cochran was masterful the entire episode.  Watching and knowing the outcome, you can see the foreshadowing of Marcia Clark's biggest mistakes,  

 

And after his interview prep with Fuhrman, seeing Darden realize that Cochran was right was interesting.  

 

All in all, I thought it was a fascinating episode.

[Umbelina]

You should read some of Dunne's columns.  He was an amazing writer, and he captured Tinseltown's fascination with the murders, as well as the grief of the victims, and Ito's fame ho' ways, the shock of the trial, just all of it.  He also wrote about several other murders, equally fascinating about how ranks closed around the Kennedy's, I really miss his column. 

[MsJamieDornan]

Umbelina, you mentioned that you've read Mark Fuhrman's book. I don't remember any part about the Nazi medals, do you?

 

I thought his book had great information on all the evidence and how and why it's collected.

[preeya]

From day one, Cochrane took control of that courtroom. He had Ito eating out of his hand. He would saunter around in his expensive pastel suits like a peacock in heat. I'm certain had he not been interjected into the case the outcome would have been different. He owned that trial.

[Umbelina]

I read it about 2 years after the trial, and I  honestly can't remember.  I do remember being far more impressed with his book than I thought I would be.  Did he address the race/Nazi stuff?  He probably did, but I'm blanking.  Anyone more recent?  I felt he was credible in the book, and I certainly didn't plan to, I bought it for $1, and had to practically hold my nose to do it.

[Kromm]

Dominick Dunne was a creepy man to me.  He was relishing in the tawdry details of a double murder to his rich friends.  Then he stopped speaking with the black servants entered the room?  

Exactly. People are glowing about his role on the show, and that's fine, but I hope it's because they see the irony of his whole portrayal and not just because they're seeing a quirky character acting quirky.

 

Here he is this lily white WASPy sophisticate, sitting in a room dressed up like a scene out of The Great Gatsby (or Downton Abby if we need a more current reference), using the breezy nickname "OJ" for a black man--where it's likely that in other circumstances Dunne would likely be all about formality in addressing or describing people's identity--talking about adultery, drugs and murder.  And the white sophisticates dine on that as much as they do the food.  Meanwhile the black servants linger in the background.

In his work Dunne may have written a lot about social injustices and race, but this show (and we have no idea if that dinner scene even happened, or anything like this if it did) was trying to portray him as a hypocrite.

[MsJamieDornan]

read it about 2 years after the trial, and I  honestly can't remember.  I do remember being far more impressed with his book than I thought I would be.  Did he address the race/Nazi stuff?  He probably did, but I'm blanking.  Anyone more recent?  I felt he was credible in the book, and I certainly didn't plan to, I bought it for $1, and had to practically hold my nose to do it.

 

I just remember him saying he was a history buff. 

 

I enjoyed the book. It was on Amazon for $1.99 for the Kindle edition. The evidence fascinates me. The stuff the prosecutors left out  was interesting.

Edited March 3, 2016 by MsJamieDornan

[MargotWendice]

In my opinion, people these days throw around the word 'creepy' far too easily. I am not sure what is creepy about Dominick Dunne. He is a man who was crushed by the brutal murder of his daughter by her former boyfriend, and the subsequent trial that let her killer off with a slap on the wrist. He did know the Hollywood elite well and that was his community. From what I have read about him he would never have stopped talking around the hired help and this article backs my assumptions: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/dominick-dunne-oj-simpson-american-crime-story.

I am not surprised he was fascinated by the OJ case as it was another women murdered at the hands of someone she formerly loved.

He did enjoy gossip, but most people do, and he made a career writing about the things that people wanted to read about (and he did it well).

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I love Dunne, loved his writing.  He went after the Kennedy's just as hard as he went after OJ.  Oh, and what else do you call someone than the name he's gone by for decades?  If he called him "Juice" I might have raised an eyebrow.  Dunne didn't exactly praise the people involved in the OJ soirees either, he mostly exposed them, and gathered extra information that way. 

[mojoween]

I realized what I found so hard to take about Sterling's portrayal of Darden and why it was so moving to me.

Sterling was playing Darden as someone who was genuinely hurt by the things Johnnie was saying in the press and the way Johnnie acted towards him. When they spoke in the foyer and Chris expressed his disappointment with Johnnie's behavior, he acted it as someone who was speaking to a colleague and a fellow human, and all Johnnie could do was sneer and growl "I wanna WIN."

I have a hard time pointing out financial errors to my coworkers. There is no way I could ever speak to another person the way Johnnie spoke to Chris. And Chris was so taken aback, and Sterling's eyes showed every bit of hurt and dismay and sadness that it just hurt me too.

I have no idea if Darden was that sympathetic in reality, but he's sure coming across that way now.

[7isBlue]

I burst into tears when Dunne showed up. His scenes were right out of his book, for the most part.

Dominic Dunne was a hero of mine. I always appreciated his refusal to back down to the powerful people he covered (The Kennedy's HATE him because of the Michael Skakel and William Kennedy Smith coverage). I followed all of his coverage of the trial at the time. I think he would probably love this show.

[FuriousStyles]

I think one of the biggest eye-openers was the Walter Scott murder. How many (white) people would have said no, a police officer would never shoot someone in the back (even though there'd been dozens of cases before to prove they would and do). But to see that video. To see irrefutable proof that cops wont hesitate to shoot black men like dogs, plant evidence and then lie about it ("I was in fear for my life") was incredible. That's a trial ill be looking forward to watching later this year. I get the sense a lot of people think this is an open and shut case given all the evidence, but we all know there's just no such thing, especially when it comes to high profile crimes.

I absolutely thought Dunne's dinner party was totally weird. They were all dressed up for Masterpiece Theater or something. His round glasses didnt really help either. All the gasping and ohh-ing and ahh-ing over the details of the trial didnt sit well. I cant say if it were me I wouldnt also be gossiping with my friends about it, but it felt like such an invasion of privacy to the Browns and Goldmans. Then it occurred to me that nothing Dunne said wouldnt have been on tv anyway since the trial was filmed, but still. It rubbed me the wrong way.

[suomi]

From Mark Fuhrman's Murder In Brentwood:

I was also attacked for collecting war memorabilia, some of which happened to be German. In fact, I'm something of a history and military buff and collect all sorts of memorabilia. Decorations, daggers, and sabres are about the only artifacts from Words Wars I and II which are neither too expensive nor too rare for me to collect.

 

[snip]

 

The defense claimed that because I had some German war memorabilia I was therefore supposedly a Nazi. That's like saying because I collect late 19th century American cavalry items, I approve of the slaughter of Indians. When I could still own weapons, I also collected old Winchesters and single action Colts. Does this mean I'm an outlaw? I'm not obsessed, only extremely intrigued by holding a piece of history, no matter what period it might come from.

 

[Umbelina]

You have to admit, Fuhrman's choice of where to live is pretty suspect though.  http://www.sandpointonline.com/sandpointmag/smw96/smwho.htm This article writes well about Sandpoint Idaho, but there is no mistaking how close it is to major white supremacy groups and survivalists, and that it's almost completely white.

[mojoween]

I'm not entirely up on the life and times of Mark Fuhrman - why can't he own weapons?

[suomi]

Dominic Dunne was a hero of mine. I always appreciated his refusal to back down to the powerful people he covered (The Kennedy's HATE him because of the Michael Skakel and William Kennedy Smith coverage). I followed all of his coverage of the trial at the time. I think he would probably love this show.

 

I think we all know that Dunne's daughter Dominique was murdered by her ex-boyfriend. The judge who presided over the murder trial, Burton Katz, was every bit as much a star fucker as Judge Ito was. At one point, in chambers, Katz modeled eyeglasses for a People photographer while trying to decide which lenses would show his eyes to best advantage. After the verdict was read:

 

He told them that justice had been served and thanked them on behalf of the attorneys and both families. I could not believe I had heard Judge Katz thank the jury on behalf of my family for reducing the murder of my daughter to manslaughter. Rage heated my blood. I felt loathing for him. The weeks of sitting impassively through the travesty that we had witnessed finally took their toll. “Not for our family, Judge Katz!” I shouted. Friends behind me put warning hands of caution on my shoulders, but reason had deserted me.

 

Katz looked at me, aghast, as if he were above criticism in his own courtroom.

 

“You will have your chance to speak at the time of the sentencing, Mr. Dunne,” he said.

 

“It’s too late then,” I answered.

 

“I will have to ask the bailiff to remove you from the courtroom,” he said.

 

“No,” I answered. “I’m leaving the courtroom. It’s all over here.”

 

I took Lenny’s wheelchair and pushed it up the aisle. The room was silent. At the double doors that opened onto the corridor, I turned back. My eyes locked with Judge Katz’s and I raised my hand and pointed at him. “You have withheld important evidence from this jury about this man’s history of violence against women.”

 

The jury foreman, when asked later by the press what finally broke the deadlock, replied on television, “A few jurors were just hot and tired and wanted to give up.”

 

The trial was over. Sentencing was set for November 10.

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1984/03/dunne198403

I'm not entirely up on the life and times of Mark Fuhrman - why can't he own weapons?

 

It's a condition of his probation following the perjury charge.

[teebax]

But if I were on the jury, I'd be questioning how a black man who lived in a predominantly white neighborhood, had mostly white friends, and dated only white women would have pro-black art work and pictures. And I don't see how the jury didn't find it strange that there were no pictures of his children with Nicole.

What you describe is my uncle, exactly. The only black people I've ever seen him around are his family. He won't date within his race. (FTR - I'm not against interracial relationships at all and have had my share of relationships with people of different races, but I also happily date within my own race.)

 

He lives in a predominantly white neighborhood and spends most of his time on the golf course with his rich, white friends. But you go into his house, and it looks like he bought out the inventory from a local African art store. He is always going on and on about black issues and is quick to complain about white people, but he only dates white women. It's the strangest dichotomy to me, but whatever. He's also abusive to his partners, physically and mentally, so I don't think our black community is missing him in the dating pool!

 

Courtney B Vance is amazing and wins at life

He is married to Angela Bassett. That in and of itself is enough to make me jealous. Add his acting ability to it, and I should despise him. 

 

We have it in our house.

Thirded (or fourthed)

 

I have had that print for as long as I can remember, and I think I got it from my parents.

[VanillaBeanne]

Could it be his felony conviction for perjury? Just guessing.

Also wonder how he explains the disability claim he made against the LAPD in the book

[VanillaBeanne]

Yes, they knew, and they laughed about it.  Read the excerpt from Rolling Stone.  They didn't know about it AT THE MOMENT it happened.

 

But they knew after the fact when it was clear that he didn't have a heart attack or serious condition, but was just having chest pains due to overwork and stress. I don't think it's beyond the pale to joke at this point. He's not dying. And no they don't care for the guy at all, and I'm sure they are very happy that he's gone. He seemed to be the only competent attorney on the prosecution side.

Just don't get all the ire directed at the dream team when Furhman and Vannater, with the vial, handed the dream team their defense on a silver platter.

[7isBlue]

Jade Foxx & Umbellina:

I am so sorry for the loss of your loved ones to such senseless violence.

I am horrified by aspects of this show. Like many of you, I expected to be angry and frustrated all over again, but I'm surprised at the intensity of my disgust for the Dream Team and anger/ frustration with Marcia Clark. I can't imagine being the Brown or Goldman family, or any victim's family.

Peace to you, both.

[Kromm]

In my opinion, people these days throw around the word 'creepy' far too easily. I am not sure what is creepy about Dominick Dunne. He is a man who was crushed by the brutal murder of his daughter by her former boyfriend, and the subsequent trial that let her killer off with a slap on the wrist. He did know the Hollywood elite well and that was his community. From what I have read about him he would never have stopped talking around the hired help and this article backs my assumptions: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/dominick-dunne-oj-simpson-american-crime-story.

I am not surprised he was fascinated by the OJ case as it was another women murdered at the hands of someone she formerly loved.

He did enjoy gossip, but most people do, and he made a career writing about the things that people wanted to read about (and he did it well).

Not the REAL man perhaps, but the one portrayed on screen here. The one with funny affectations, framed in a way that makes him look like a caricature of a WASPy white/society dilettante, with subtext that he's a hypocrite.

 

I don't know if I'd use the phrase "creepy" then, but I think it's clear they're doing a real job on him. The comments appreciating this version puzzle me a bit because of this--I mean it could be seen as campy fun, but it's also subtly indicting him.

[7isBlue]

I'm saving the Vanity Fair archives to read later but is that pic they put at the start Dominick Dunne or Robert Morse? Because with the way they styled Robert last night I really cannot tell.

Other than one notable exception, the casting crew on this show earned their pay and more.

That is, indeed, Dominic Dunne in the photo. They've done a great job styling Robert Morse for the role.

[Dev F]

Not only did Vance's talent rightly earn him this role, he is playing Cochrane with a subtly and finesse that would be lacking if played by a less talented actor. 

 

Yep. I was particularly struck by his delivery of the last line of his retort to Darden in court: "I would say this was outlandish, unfortunate, and unwarranted." That's such a prototypical Cochrane line that it would be very tempting for an actor to go full Jackie Chiles on it. ("This was outlandish! Unfortunate! And unwarranted!") In fact, I suspect the writers scripted it with the expectation that it would be delivered that way. But Vance's offhand delivery was much more effective.

 

Darden's speech about the N word was really uncomfortable for me, and I literally went hoooboy that was stupid.

 

Believe it or not, the real Darden's speech was apparently much, much worse. The Vanity Fair fact-check quotes Jeffrey Toobin:

 

Darden tried to have the N-word banned from the trial.

 

True. In what Toobin calls “nearly twenty minutes of stream-of-consciousness babbling,” Darden delivers much of what we see portrayed on-screen with feeling and clear intention, whereas in the courtroom, his statements seemed to veer off topic, coming back to O.J.’s “fetish” for “blond-haired white women.”

[Daisy head]

I think even a dramatization is supposed to be a truthful reflection of events.  For example, if they showed a scene where the trial suddenly stops and Marcia Clark and Johnnie Cochran start making out, while the jury goes "Wooooooh!' like they are on Saved by the Bell, you couldn't just say that it is a dramatization so that kind of thing is excepted. 

 

This mental picture is my everything!

[Jade Foxx]

 

Quote

    Darden tried to have the N-word banned from the trial.

    

    True. In what Toobin calls “nearly twenty minutes of stream-of-consciousness babbling,” Darden delivers much of what we see portrayed on-screen with feeling and clear intention, whereas in the courtroom, his statements seemed to veer off topic, coming back to O.J.’s “fetish” for “blond-haired white women.”

 

YIKES.

 

I don't remember this, but it sounds like an absolute train wreck. Even back then, I felt Darden was an idealistic kind of good guy, who thought truth and justice would be enough to prevail in the end. (ha) Talk about swimming with sharks. I really don't think he had the stomach, or desire, to get down with Johnnie & Company, on their level. Which is why I always rooted for him.

[Crs97]

I knew Dominick Dunne's history and that he wrote about this trial and was guest of honor at all these fancy dinners during it, but I hadn't really considered the reality of it all until that scene. Watching him hold court and enthrall his hosts and guests with his inside knowledge . . . watching them gasp and be all a twitter about these salacious little tidbits he feeds them . . . He writes his outrage when the defense in his daughter's trial suggested she had an abortion, but that is exactly the morsel he would have saved for the main course at these little soriees. Everyone is this story has feet of clay.

[Umbelina]

But he also mocks all that in his essays.  You guys really should read a couple, to get a feel for what he was doing.  He worked for Vanity Fair, so of course they wanted the rich and famous gossip angle!  He talks about Nancy Reagan either calling him or running up to him to ask about OJ.  That party was probably supposed to be one of Betsy Bloomingdale's.  There were "OJ parties" all over town, and the ones that got the best or most famous people had an insider there to dance for his dinner.  He was one of those, but while he danced for his dinner, he was also collecting enough for his column.  Later, also for his book, "Another City, Not My Own."

 

He was aware, very aware, of the absurdity of it all, still he attended and wrote about it, all the while writing for the victims of this, extremely friendly with the victim's families.  I guess it sounds gross, but I loved every one of them at the time. 

[PepperMonkey]

Everyone, including Travolta, is excelling in their roles, with the exception of Cuba. Still cannot look at him and even remotely envision OJ. Travolta and Schwimmer are both larger than their real life counterparts, but they are playing the parts so well, it doesn't bother me that much.

 

Chris Darden is my favourite character. I feel his pain every time he is slighted, belittled, marginalized and shut out. That scene with the bench, if that really did happen, almost made me cry.

 

The dream team didn't actually win this thing. The prosecution pretty much handed "not guilty" to them on a silver platter.

[ennui]

I’m sorry Jade Foxx and Umbelina. I can’t imagine.
I have too many posts to quote and respond …
RE: Fuhrman and Idaho:  Well, there are major portions of this country that are predominantly white. Once you get away from the coasts … mostly Caucasian. I’m a little bothered that, once again, people are making Fuhrman out to be the bad guy, when OJ is the [acquitted] murderer.
RE: Vance and L&O:CI … Maybe this is a soap opera, and Vance is playing dual roles. He’s ADA Carver, and his evil twin, Cochran.
I didn’t recall that Cochran died of a brain tumor.  From personal experience, I know that’s brutal, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
RE: Dramatic license … I don’t know which thread this belongs in, but I recall when the film about Ritchie Valens came out (“La Bamba”), the film had a big conflict between the two older brothers. In reality, they got along fine, but every story needs a conflict, so the writers created one. I wonder if the conflict here within the Dream Team is real, or manufactured for dramatic purposes.
I, too, remember this trial. I’m bothered that I’m pulled in, once again.

The Dream Team most certainly won this case. Without their formidable talents, Marcia and the evidence would have prevailed.

[MsJamieDornan]

1.  

   Could it be his felony conviction for perjury? Just guessing.

   Yes, a convicted felon cant own firearms. They cant vote either.

 

Thank you Suomi for the excerpts from the Furhnan book.

Edited March 3, 2016 by MsJamieDornan

[Kromm]

Yep. I was particularly struck by his delivery of the last line of his retort to Darden in court: "I would say this was outlandish, unfortunate, and unwarranted." That's such a prototypical Cochrane line that it would be very tempting for an actor to go full Jackie Chiles on it. ("This was outlandish! Unfortunate! And unwarranted!") In fact, I suspect the writers scripted it with the expectation that it would be delivered that way. But Vance's offhand delivery was much more effective.

 

 

Believe it or not, the real Darden's speech was apparently much, much worse. The Vanity Fair fact-check quotes Jeffrey Toobin:

This post gets the WIN for being the first one (that I've noticed at least) that's mentioned Jackie Chiles!  Ding-ding-ding-ding...