S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[PRgal]

Edith is not, and would never be, a proud single mother.  She would never openly acknowledge Marigold is her daughter while she's single.  Marigold's parentage would still be a shameful secret to be kept from everyone but her family at Downton.

 

I wonder if Edith will ever allow Marigold to address her as "Mummy" the way George calls Mary?  We've never heard her speak, but I also wonder if she calls Robert "Donk" the way the other kids do...

[whatsatool]

A comparison to Austen's Emma is so apt; I was thinking something along these lines too! In fact I think the plot development of Emma, and the character development of Emma Woodhouse, provide a pretty good model for how the plot of this episode could have gone, if it were written competently. Tom's take-down of Mary in this episode is superficially similar to Mr. Knightley's admonishment of Emma after she insults Miss Bates, and the point for Emma is that if Miss Bates is as far beneath her as Emma believes, it should make Emma more compassionate, not less. The subtext too is that Mr. Knightley is so upset because he loves Emma, and knows how much better she is than that. This seems to be where Tom is coming from too, albeit in a platonic sense.

The difference is that Knightley doesn't dilute the criticism (and by so doing, kind of let Emma off the hook) by tying it to her angst over a guy. Emma's own love story is resolved in a separate part of the plot; her epiphany is purely about her own behavior and how she failed to be the best person she could. She doesn't end by deciding that she should just be polite and keep her unkind thoughts to herself; she interrogates the source of those unkind thoughts in her own vanity. She realizes that many of her prior, kind actions had been motivated as much by the gratification of her ego as by a real desire to do good. This doesn't make Emma irredeemable, and she gets her marriage and happy ending, but Austen very crucially lets Emma's moral redemption take place first. She has to work to regain Miss Bates' friendship, and it has to be completely unconnected to Emma's own romantic fate, or it wouldn't count.

What's damning of Mary, and of the...let's say, unique moral perspective of the show, especially in comparison to Austen's Emma, is that the insult to Miss Bates is treated as the climax of the novel, and the worst thing that Emma does - while it's no worse than the way Mary speaks to Edith every damn day. Emma would never have gotten to the point that Mary does in this episode, towards anyone, because Knightley would have read her the riot act the first time she publicly insulted that person.

I was really expecting an Emma-like epiphany for Mary, especially after the earlier episode where she reflected that she wasn't as good a person as Sybil. That epiphany might still be coming, but even if it does come, it'll be too late to make any kind of narrative sense. Which just shows I guess that Jane Austen was a better writer than Julian Fellowes, which (heh) is surely not a shock to anyone.

Well I think Edith is pretty irritating and there is no counterpoint in Austen. But yes its hard to see how Austen would have chosen anyone over Tom or Tom would have been a matchmaker. What man ever is?

[fishcakes]

Edith is not, and would never be, a proud single mother.  She would never openly acknowledge Marigold is her daughter while she's single.  Marigold's parentage would still be a shameful secret to be kept from everyone but her family at Downton.

 

She'll never acknowledge that Marigold is her daughter whether she's married or single. Publicly, she's ensured that Marigold will forever be the charity case of the Crawleys.

[shipperx]

Mary had just showed herself to be a person who in the midle of her thirties is still the same as she and Edith were in their early twenties when they stabbed one another's back. Then they at least had a reason (to revenge what the other had done) but now Mary acted for no other reason than to prevent her sister to be happy and outrank her, even if it was entirely in her power to call Henry back and she has in Downton more actual power, having the position that is usually that of the man, than Edith would have as a wife of a Marquess

This relates to one of the things that makes the Mary/Talbot relationship seem so very plot mechanics as opposed to a love story. I was utterly baffled when Mary summoned Talbot to Downton to tell him she was okay to marry him now ... And he came. Why? Oh I know the explanation is that it's Downton Abbey and she is the star and this is the star location. But character-wise it just doesn't work and makes Talbot a chess piece rather than a character. If it were character he would have a POV. From his POV he fell for someone who hates his career, fears it, and also looks down on him for his lack of title and station. She breaks up with him over the phone the day his friend died. Then when he reaches out to her, she makes a lot of noise about titles and station, tells him she doesn't want him and tells him that he should leave. So a few days later she summons him to travel to her house. And he goes. What? Why should he be the one traveling to her summons? Why is she required to make no gesture and make no effort to regain a relationship? It's as lazy as expecting Edith to offer the olive branch rather than Mary making any effort of her own to heal the breach.

One of the problems with Mary inside the story and in the meta is privilege. Her station has privilege. That's a given. And she's well aware of her station (see: many of her words this episode). Then she has privilege within the family dynamic. Most detrimentally as far as the writing goes is the privilege bestowed by Fellowes favorite. Because of this, the scene of Robert, Cora, and Rosamund chastising her is interrupted by something else, and everyone is ultimately about HER happy endin (however we the audience feels about the pairing. In the writing it's meant to be 'big love'). It's why Talbot arrives when summoned and is instantly on board with a wedding despite her behavior and despite to entirety of her 'winning him back' was summoning him to her turf. Same with Edith. Mary may have realized she crossed the line, but then she did nothing. The olive branch was offered by Edith coming to HER and Edith saying pax, and Edith wishing Mary happiness and reassuring Mary.

Very, very little is ever required of Mary. Her parents can't voice much criticism, Livia conveniently dies to pave the way for Mary. Discarded suitors promptly arrive when beckoned and are happy to be friends (or to insta marry her) whatever her behavior without her ever making much effort to win their good will and Edith arrives to wish Mary love and happiness in the same episode where Mary quite spitefully resented and plotted against Edith's love and happiness. Mary isn't required to make much actual effort, and this is a problem in writing.

If Fellowes wanted me to care about the Mary/Talbot romance he should have given Talvot a POV. And any reasonable POV after Mary's behavior would have entailed her actually doing more to win a happy ending than summoning him be phone call and him complying and wanting to insta marry her. He has virtually no character development in this scenario at all.

[Avaleigh]

Edith started pushing when she kept insisting that Henry dumped Mary.

Yep, she couldn't stop. She enjoys it when things aren't going well for Mary. Edith gets away with saying things where if Mary were to say the same thing there would be cries of how horrible she is to Edith. It's like Edith rubbing it in Mary's face that "everyone" else is moving on with their lives. Or when she needles Mary by smirking and implying that she won't have a job when Tom's back. Her glee at seeing Mary react to Gillingham moving on.

 

When it comes to Mary, up until the reconciliation scene, Edith was treating her sister the same way she has since the first season of the show when she was smug and satisfied anytime things went wrong for Mary with Matthew. 

 

Edith had at least one other scene with Bertie after he came back to Downton when she could have told him about Marigold, before the corridor discussion.  It had been a while since he first proposed to her, she had plenty of time to give it thought even before his cousin died and he became the Marquess.  After he arrived at Downton, he and Edith went for a walk and were alone outside sitting on a bench - that's when she should have been honest with him if not sooner.  But she chose to continue her lie.

 

I think that's why she made peace with Mary.  She knew she'd had a chance to be honest with Bertie and wasn't, so all Mary did was bring to light her lies - she was the one who lied, however.

 

Cora should have taken Edith aside for a moment and had a conversation with her about difficult mothers-in-law.

Edith had plenty of time but she couldn't face it. She didn't trust him and tried to trick him instead. Bertie didn't deserve to be treated that way. She could have even given herself a bit of breathing space by saying that she wanted to talk to him about something later but now isn't the right moment. At least some straightforward indication that they have things to talk about before being officially engaged. 

 

If you truly think Mary is the more injured party in the Mary/Edith relationship...I don't know what to tell you, honestly, other than to suggest you rewatch the series.

They've both lashed out at each other time and again. One huge difference is that the family doesn't know how low Edith can sink when it comes to her feud with Mary. Edith has the benefit of having never been found out about the time she tried to ruin Mary's life and kill her chances of ever receiving a proposal. Edith has been a bitch to Mary season after season but it's often ignored because Edith is the character who is considered to be "unlucky" while Mary is considered to be JF's favorite after Violet. A person can watch the series numerous times and still see that Edith is an equal participant in their feud. 

[whatsatool]

Yeah, that moment definitely got the tears flowing for me. I'm an easy get, but I cried several times near the end.

I don't mind Mary with Henry as much as others. I do enjoy Bertie/Edith more, but I don't find the pairing unsatisfying. I find him likable and straightforward actually, which brings Mary down to earth somewhat. I bought into the romance, but I was one of the few, I guess.

I think it could actually work out quite well. He would stand up to her and if her life must revolve around the estate she needs a mate. If he does die, I feel sure if Tom is unmarried he will be husband 3. Edited February 22, 2016 by whatsatool

[SusanSunflower]

Fellowes has been skating on very thin ice in suggesting that Bertie "accepting" Marigold would guarantee a "happy ending" since their wedding (simply by virtue of his new wealth - rags to riches - and title) will draw attention, even inquiring as to Edith's Gregson inheritance (likely a public record). If they moved to America people might simply not think to ask or question, but unless Marigold can be "parked" at Downton until Edith and Bertie are well settled in their new home, the child's backstory will be catnip, if only to demonstrate the vast generosity of Edith's family in rescuing the little tyke. 

 

Edith should have been honest particularly since an agreed upon strategy for dealing with questions about Marigold would still be needed, short of parking the child at Downton for severals months while wedding preparations and readying their new home would generate a lot of interest. Bertie has good reasons to worry about Marigold, first being his mother's reaction to his marrying a woman with child (even if just a ward) ...  Adoption was not a "fashionable" choice -- there was prejudice (towards the sort of people who "gave up" children and "blood lines") and worry about the status of adopted children when/if  bio heirs arrived. None of which is even hinted at, but Bertie needs to not only accept Edith's deception and Marigold as her daughter, but also his role as Marigold's "forever father" even when/if his own bio children arrive on the scene. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[amensisterfriend]

Which just shows I guess that Jane Austen was a better writer than Julian Fellowes, which (heh) is surely not a shock to anyone.

 

Wait, WHAT?! How could any sane and rational person ever conclude that? Shouldn't something this outrageous be confessed in the Unpopular Opinions thread? Ha---needless to say, I agree as a huge Jane Austen fan and a not-so-huge JF fan, and I love that this is something most fans can rally around regardless of where people stand on Edith, Mary, etc. :)

 

I do think the Emma comparisons are apt, though IMO Emma is more warm, caring and well-intentioned even on her worst day than Mary is, like, 98% of her waking hours. The thing is, I don't think Mary could coexist with a Knightley who will call her out on her atrocious behavior and strive to bring out her better self---I think she wants someone who's just fine with the nasty, snotty, frosty bitch that she is. And Henry, for all we hear about how 'strong' and 'clever' he supposedly is, seems a lot more likely than someone like Tom to just let Mary be Mary. Which would be great---(I'm not personally a big fan of relationships where one strives to 'change' the other)---if Mary being Mary weren't such a horror show. (FWIW, I really enjoyed Mary through the first few seasons---her feelings for Matthew did seem to bring out a comparatively soft, vulnerable, HUMAN side of her that's largely been lacking since his death.)

 

Even as someone who's not a huge Tom fan, I think he deserves someone way more kind than Mary...a category which includes nearly anyone. So I was relieved for a few reasons not to see them end up together as some were predicting, though I couldn't care less about Henry. 

 

Edith is no saint. She has many flaws and has made many egregious missteps, some of which involve Mary. But I'll never understand how that in any way absolves Mary from her awfulness---in this episode and in many, many others. And it's not like Edith is the only person Mary is loathsome towards. She's insufferable towards almost everyone other than Anna and (sometimes) Carson, who's certainly got issues of his own. I wanted someone to throttle her when she made that gross comment to Robert in the wake of Thomas' suicide attempt. 

 

I actually would have liked to see some of this LAST season, leaving this season for Mary to slowly but steadily become a slightly better person while still retaining her quintessential Mary-ness. But cramming all this into just this episode and expecting us to be excited that she got her 'happy ending' with a guy she at least thinks she loves just didn't work for me. Now I'm just hoping she ends up somehow destitute and is one day forced to swallow that massive ego of hers long enough to beg Edith for assistance :) 

Edited February 22, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[MakeMeLaugh]

I like to think Edith telling Bertie that "Marigold is my daughter" in a sense was her revealing that fact to the world, like a secret had been lifted (and how wonderful not to have to keep hiding it and her love for her). In keeping with "the times they are a'changing" theme of this entire show, an upperclass woman with a child born out of wedlock might become just part of the fabric of society as far as this show is concerned, just as the late Marquess seemed to be more or less out as an acknowledged homosexual in Tangiers.

 

And I also thought that everyone at the table knowing Marigold's status except Bertie was as offputting to him as the fact of her birth was, like this crazy family conspiracy where everyone lied by omission to him. 

 

Re Mary and Edith: Edith's character has grown through the years, Mary has stayed the entitled oldest daughter she was as a teenager. Arrested development.

Edited February 22, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[TheGreenKnight]

I am so in love with Edith right now. Such a complex situation (and she really had opened the door to telling Bertie by saying her life is so complicated. A simple "How so?" from him in response, and she might have told him all). Laura Carmichael is amazing and she ultimately has had the best storylines of the show and of the sisters, even though she is still "Poor Edith." Poor Michelle Dockery must be so sick of playing arch and having pretty much nothing happen to her character except one beau after another. Would she marry Henry, wouldn't she marry Henry--who cares, there would just be another beau if she didn't. I look forward to seeing her in other roles.

So true about Dockery, and I'm glad she's free now. It must be boring to play such a static character; she practically had the role of a mannequin these past two years. Mary's bitchiness isn't even OTT enough that I'd imagine it would be fun to play like O'Brien and Thomas. I liked how the episode ended with Edith at Sybil's grave--at least one of the two sisters isn't a complete monster at the end. This is why a Tom/Mary relationship could never happen; no way Tom could ever deserve to end up with someone as awful as Mary.

[gus]

 

They've both lashed out at each other time and again. One huge difference is that the family doesn't know how low Edith can sink when it comes to her feud with Mary. Edith has the benefit of having never been found out about the time she tried to ruin Mary's life and kill her chances of ever receiving a proposal. Edith has been a bitch to Mary season after season but it's often ignored because Edith is the character who is considered to be "unlucky" while Mary is considered to be JF's favorite after Violet. A person can watch the series numerous times and still see that Edith is an equal participant in their feud.

 

I don't remember if she reported it to the rest of the family, but Mary found out from Evelyn Napier (S2?  S3?) that Edith had written the letter about Pamuk.  Evelyn paid Mary a visit specifically to tell her, somewhat reluctantly, that he had learned this and that that is why the story was given credence - because the information came from her own sister.  That said, and being fully aware of Edith's part in the feud, I remain MUCH more sympathetic to her than to Mary.

[StatMom]

I know it was meant to be a lighter storyline, but the Mrs. Patmore bit did not entertain me as intended. First off, she had this dream that she long worked for, only to be immediately derailed by someone else's actions. Yes, it's ridiculous that her business should suffer from (now outdated) moral punishment, but that didn't make the devastation to her/her business funny to me. It was nice that she was so touched by Robert's declaration of loyalty, but again I was just saddened by the fact that she had to rely on it at all, and that it was even a question/decision that they should support her. Then everyone hah-hah-ing all over the place, isn't it just HILARIOUS that her plans for retirement are down the tubes. Oh my sides.

 

At least I am taking the Mrs. Hughes as Put Upon Wife storyline with glee. It helps that Carson got his comeuppance.

[lovinbob]

Tom and Lorenzo's post reminded me of something I thought last night: How nice it would have been if Carson had had a true epiphany or change of heart regarding Barrow. It wouldn't have had to be completely out of character, but if they'd shown him visiting Thomas, and demonstrating just a touch of gruffly paternal kindness, it would have gone a long way toward redeeming a character who has shown little of what made him a likable character in seasons past.

[Roseanna]

Edith started pushing when she kept insisting that Henry dumped Mary.

 

Edith just tried to explain to Bertie why it wasn't a good moment to announce the news. As it wasn't true that Henry had abandoned Mary, why did she act like it was - being visibly hurt that Henry had left although she had wanted him to?

 

In any case, the fateful phase of the conversation began only after Tom congratulated Edith and Bertie by saying that he and Mary were happy for them ("aren't we, Mary"). If she had just said "yes, we are", that would have the end of it.

 

After all, an upper class woman like Mary was brought to cope with situations like by saying things she didn't really mean and even plaster the smile on her face by saying it - as she did when she congratulated Matthew for his engagement with Lavinia.

[avecsans]

So, Tom supposedly knows Mary like a book, but yet when he passive-aggressively confirms to Mary that Marigold is Edith's child, he doesn't think to give Edith a heads up about it? If he had, it pretty much would have forced Edith's hand and she would have had to tell the truth to Bertie. Let's face it - no way Mary keeps quiet in that situation. I really miss Anarchist Tom who wouldn't have given a rat's ass about the toffs' love lives. I don't think Sybil would have liked this version of Tom very much.

Also, Anna and Bates can suck it right along with Carson, Mary and Daisy. Poor Mrs. Patmore is humiliated and all these twits can do is laugh and gossip about it, almost as if they were never in a publicly embarrassing situation. Or three. By the way, I feel like Fellowes paid the actor who plays the police officer a huge flat fee and decided to shoehorn him into every episode just to get his money's worth.

As bad as Edith has been in the past, I am fully on her team against the vile Mary. Don't forget, Edith was ready to call a truce with Mary after Sybil's death, but Mary put the kibosh on that very quickly. Mary is the worst. There was no logic in the way the Henry situation played out, but things that make sense are in short supply on this show.

I love Isobel and I admire her hat game.

[izabella]

I like to think Edith telling Bertie that "Marigold is my daughter" in a sense was her revealing that fact to the world, like a secret had been lifted (and how wonderful not to have to keep hiding it and her love for her). In keeping with "the times they are a'changing" theme of this entire show, an upperclass woman with a child born out of wedlock might become just part of the fabric of society as far as this show is concerned, just as the late Marquess seemed to be more or less out as an acknowledged homosexual in Tangiers.

 

I didn't see it that way - Edith was not relieved to be telling Bertie that she is Marigold's mother.  She knows if word got out in society, that she'd be ruined.  She was backed into a corner and had to say something, but I'm sure she's hoping and expecting Bertie to keep her secret.  I mean, he might blab to everyone I suppose, but I don't think Edith believes he will, nor that it would be a freeing thing if the world knew.

[SusanSunflower]

The prospect that JF intended Mary to end-up almost exactly where she started is massively depressing "creatively" -- and yet ... that's what it looks like ... Unless (oh noes) Fellowes once again utterly lost control of the reins and ended up there unwittingly ... 

 

Suddenly remembering Mary's quite deliberate lie to Strallan, by which she meant to stop him from proposing to Edith as he intended, back before he was injured, when he was just an old and pathetic dull-as-dishwater family friend, makes Mary's revelations to Bertie damningly "consistent" ... To say that Dockery's performance this episode was inconsistent is understatement intended as kindness... The writing didn't help, but she reminded me a bit of Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard plotting her final victory, or comeback. 

 

ETA: Bertie needs to accept that there will be questions about Marigold and those question will reflect on HIM ... full stop ... 

Marrying a divorcee was still shockingly marrying down for someone of his (new) prospects.  As long as they live in England (and leaving is now ruled out by his inhertiance) Marigold will need his unquestioning protection forever -- as she grows, makes friends, goes to school, comes out into society, and eventually gets married, etc.  The idea that there was not already gossip about Edith and Gregson (even minus Marigold) is ridiculous.  Even without knowing of Marigold's existence, anyone knowing Gregson would have "guessed" some sort of extramarital relationship between them ... 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

Well I think Edith is pretty irritating and there is no counterpoint in Austen.

 

Miss Bates really was irritating - she got to Emma's nerves. 

 

But that's not the point but that Emma was criticized for being a minor fault because it showed her heartless and she had to redeem herself before she got her happy end. Mary did a great wrong and although she was severely criticized by Tom, she didn't redeem herself but got married straight away.

 

Also, Austen didn't accept Mary and Henry Crawford in Mansfield Park even if they were lively and witty ​because they lacked moral sense. 

[gus]

 

I love Isobel and I admire her hat game.

 

The hats in the last few episodes have been to die for.  And what about Edith's coat in the Bertie breakup scene??  Especially the back view.  The only reason I wouldn't kill to have it is because it would look like a flour sack on me.

[Roseanna]

I don't remember if she reported it to the rest of the family, but Mary found out from Evelyn Napier (S2?  S3?) that Edith had written the letter about Pamuk.  Evelyn paid Mary a visit specifically to tell her, somewhat reluctantly, that he had learned this and that that is why the story was given credence - because the information came from her own sister.  

 

In the last episode of S1.

[AndySmith]

Edith just tried to explain to Bertie why it wasn't a good moment to announce the news. As it wasn't true that Henry had abandoned Mary, why did she act like it was - being visibly hurt that Henry had left although she had wanted him to?

 

Edith didn't have to keep pushing the issue. And she especially didn't have to contradict Mary. After all, an upper class woman like Edith was brought up to cope with situations like this by not pushing someone or contradicting them when it seems they aren't feeling pleasant.

 

And if anything, she could have avoided the issue by making another excuse, like Cora not being there.

 

n any case, the fateful phase of the conversation began only after Tom congratulated Edith and Bertie by saying that he and Mary were happy for them ("aren't we, Mary"). If she had just said "yes, we are", that would have the end of it.

 

No, it came because Edith just couldn't let. It. Go. Even if Mary didn't say anything...so what? Let it go and move on, Edith.

 

She would never openly acknowledge Marigold is her daughter while she's single.

 

Couldn't she legally adopt her, instead of just keeping her as her "ward"?

[Roseanna]

Edith is not, and would never be, a proud single mother.  She would never openly acknowledge Marigold is her daughter while she's single.  Marigold's parentage would still be a shameful secret to be kept from everyone but her family at Downton.

 

There were "no proud single mothers" at that time. Edith can't change the society's norms alone. By acknowledging Marigold openly as her own daughter, Edith would only cause that she would be harassed and called a bastard by other children.

[SusanSunflower]

She can't adopt a child whose birth certificate lists her as the mother .... Bertie might well adopt Edith's daughter for legal reasons (in the event of Edith's death or their divorce) but that wouldn't explain or put to rest questions wrt where Marigold came from or identify her bloodlines. ... which some people still persist in believing in.  Consider how long prejudice against those born or raised (or even worse, not born and raised) Roman Catholic or some other religion persisted ... interfaith marriage used to be considered a real challenge to a happy marriage, in no small part because of the presumed diapproval of in-laws (or the need to be "cut off" from one side or there other) 

[AndySmith]

I think that is basically what the original poster said.

[proserpina65]

Mary was awful and - I think - out of character. Yes, she has been snide and bitchy towards Edith, but this was a whole different dimension and we have never before see her act that way.

 

I don't think Mary's behavior was out of character at all.  She's always been this way except with a few select people.  She took it to a worse level in this episode, but it's always been there.

[SusanSunflower]

 

Edith didn't have to keep pushing the issue. And she especially didn't have to contradict Mary.

No one, not even Mary, had told Edith that Mary knew about Marigold ... she had no reason to fear Mary's sudden revelation. If Edith had been warned/told, she likely would have confronted Mary privately and/or been forced to tell Bertie post-haste, no waiting for a good moment, etc.

 

Edith was laughing because Henry had called Mary's bluff and simply taken his ball and gone home ... I can't blame her from rejoicing slightly that someone had stood up to the bully. 

 

(eta: I can't remember, did Edith rejoice when Matthew announced his engagement to Lavinia?) 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[terrymct]

Concerned on where Barrow is going to go. I like him. I want him to find a cushy job in service with someone who is a liberal thinker- much as Bertie seemed sympathetic to his cousin in Tangiers maybe he could go there. 

 

 

I really thought that Barrow might accompany Bertie to Tangiers to help him while Bertie arranges his cousin's affairs, then stay.

Concerned on where Barrow is going to go. I like him. I want him to find a cushy job in service with someone who is a liberal thinker- much as Bertie seemed sympathetic to his cousin in Tangiers maybe he could go there. 

 

 

I really thought that Barrow might accompany Bertie to Tangiers to help him while Bertie arranges his cousin's affairs, then stay.

[Artymouse]

I want to rewatch, but the more I think about it, the more I think Edith would have told Bertie the truth about Marigold,. As others have said, she was trying to work up to it, first by asking if Marigold could live with them after they were married, then with the mention of a complicated past. Even so, I remember what Violet said a couple of seasons ago, "Every couple goes to the altar with half the story hidden."

 

Being an American, I feel like I'm sort of tone deaf to the nuances that go along with class rank in Britain. Obviously, I know that the differences exist, but in practical/social terms, what would it mean (or how would it play out) for Edith to be a Marchioness when her sister is a Lady, father is an Earl, etc.?

 

And I'm on board the "Carson is even more of a pompous ass than usual" train. I don't know how much redemption they can fit into the final episode, but he's got a lot of ground to make up. And I wouldn't be sad if Mrs. Hughes bashed him in the head with a cast-iron skillet, since I can't imagine him changing much.

[Suzee2]

This was the worst Downton episode ever. It destroyed the whole show for me. Mary was awful and - I think - out of character. Yes, she has been snide and bitchy towards Edith, but this was a whole different dimension and we have never before see her act that way.

 

I hated how everyone bullied Mary about Henry. I hated Henry and this horrible "no means yes" storyline. It was sexist and disgusting. 

 

I even hated Tom. The only good scene was, when he yelled at Mary. She deserved it, but his whole behavior before was awful.

 

And then even the Dowager became completely out of character! In Episode 4 she said about Henry "Mary needs more than a handsome face with a hand on a gearstick" and then all the sudden she has changed her mind and Henry is the one? Where did we ever see any of this?

 

The stupidest thing: All family members told us over and over how "strong" Henry is and that Mary "can't control" him and then she whistles and he comes and brings a marriage licence. AWFUL!!

 

Edith was an idiot, too. She should have told Bertie of course, but she's a coward as usual. 

 

So it all ends in misery. I can't see Mary being happy with Talbot, I clearly see a divorce. Tom has no life anyway, he's a character from the very first season and he gets nothing in the end. It is endlessly depressing. 

THIS!! I can't say I'm surprised JF bungled this episode so badly, given the way the season has progressed with pointless plot lines (hospital feud, Baxter and the cops, Denker/Buddy Hackett, sad-sack Thomas), but I'd hoped for something better. The shallow plot lines were cringe-worthy -- e.g.,  Mary's meltdown over the risk of losing Henry to a car crash, that she couldn't live through that kind of loss again, and then suddenly it's okay, let's get married NOW! Oy. My expectations for this series have continued to fall since S4, so they're at rock bottom for the Christmas episode.

[Ohwell]

That final love talk between Mary and Henry before they got married was the most unromantic, dispassionate talk I'd ever heard between two people supposedly in love.  They are both so dry and cold.  I'd have rather watched Danker and Spratt have hate sex together.

[nara]

 

I've never heard of that (one-sided) feud before but given how badly things turned out writing-wise it does make sense. But what's a show-runner got to do if the male lead wants out? I was trying to think of similar scenarios where the show managed to course-correct. Unfortunately only TGW comes to mind and while Will's death sparked the show's best season what followed afterwards has so far been just a downward spiral.

Interestingly, in The Good Wife, Matthew Goode was one of the string of men they threw at the female lead after Will's departure. It didn't work there either IMO. I think he deserves better than these "replacement" roles.

[TheGreenKnight]

I've seen several people say this was a horrible episode, but I have to admit it's fast become one of my favorite episodes of the series, personally. The family learning Bertie is an heir, Mary ruining Edith at breakfast, the fight, Violet and Mary's scene, Mary and Isobel at Matthew's grave, Edith speech to Mary before the wedding, and the opening/closing shots of the episode--all these scenes were perfect. Things actually happening, emotions being shown, conversations taking place! Very unexpected. I felt everyone was in-character and most of what happened was a long time coming.

[Constantinople]

In the 5th episode of this season, Violet is talking to Robert and refers to his father, her husband as "Your late papa, the sixth Earl of Grantham."  That makes Robert the 7th Earl of Grantham.

 

In this episode, when Bertie is talking to Edith about getting married, he says, "The 7th Marquess of Hexham weds the daughter of the 5th Earl of Grantham".

[proserpina65]

The idea that no one in the family other than Edith knew that Bertie was the heir to Hexham seems a little unlikely.

 

These people, and Carson, are obsessed with social position and don't have a lot to do.

 

In Season 1, there was talk about cracking open the books to check on Mary's various suitors.

 

In Season 2, Carson remarked that Lavinia Swire was not in Burke's Peerege or Burke's Landed Gentry.

 

Violet knew that there were about 40 strong, healthy men between Talbot and the Earldom of Shrewsbury.

 

But no one has any idea that Bertie was the heir?

But then they would've actually had to care about Edith for five seconds.  Of course Violet knew all about the lineage and prospects of one of MARY'S suitors.

[SusanSunflower]

my favorite laugh was when, after telling everyone who would listen that she couldn't marry down, Mary accused Henry of calling her a gold-digger for suggesting she wouldn't marry him because of his lack of prospect (i.e. marrying down) ... I expected someone to administer a clue-stick to the side of Mary's head ... but at least she didn't accuse Henry of being a gold-digger (or if she did I missed it). 

 

Henry's role in polite society of Mary's boy-toy (with expensive hobby but no real income) deserves some consideration ... 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[roomtorome]

I just don't think - this is personal opinion only! - that Matthew Goode is that good of an actor.  He is ostensibly attractive (though I don't find him striking or interesting but that is subjective, of course) - I have seen him in The Imitation Game where I thought he was playing a certain type just fine but nothing very difficult or intriguing and I saw him pretty much as a nonentity in The Good Wife with zero chemistry with the lead and for me, he lacks charisma.  Pure and simple.  Oh, and in Death Comes to Pemberley - he just doesn't pop on screen or impress with an acting range - 

 

Maybe others see it in him - but, I don't.  But, in this respect (charisma-free) I find him the perfect match in the case of Mary and Henry - they both project being superficial (the characters) and the actors playing the characters are well suited to those roles.  

[proserpina65]

Edith is not, and would never be, a proud single mother.  She would never openly acknowledge Marigold is her daughter while she's single.  Marigold's parentage would still be a shameful secret to be kept from everyone but her family at Downton.

 

Because this is set in 1925, where proud single mothers were exceedingly rare, if they existed at all.  And coming clean in public about Marigold's parentage would ruin any chance the child had for a decent future.  Keeping quiet outside of the family is as much for the child's sake as Edith's.

[Roseanna]

 

No, it came because Edith just couldn't let. It. Go.

 

Sounds like a man who had hit his wife "explains" that the wife kept nagging him and he had to silence her. But even a violent man can learn not to react by hitting.

 

A person becomes mentally an adult when she admits that whatever the other people says or does, that does not make her behave like she does but it's only her own choice.  

[TheGreenKnight]

And I'm on board the "Carson is even more of a pompous ass than usual" train. I don't know how much redemption they can fit into the final episode, but he's got a lot of ground to make up. And I wouldn't be sad if Mrs. Hughes bashed him in the head with a cast-iron skillet, since I can't imagine him changing much.

The funny thing is that I think Carson becoming wholly unlikable had to have been unintentional on Fellowes’ part, but he couldn’t have done a better job of it if he’d tried. Mrs. Hughes is in my top favorites on this show, so watching Carson make her miserable caused me dislike him more than I thought I could.

[izabella]

ETA: Bertie needs to accept that there will be questions about Marigold and those question will reflect on HIM ... full stop ...

 

Marrying a divorcee was still shockingly marrying down for someone of his (new) prospects.  As long as they live in England (and leaving is now ruled out by his inhertiance) Marigold will need his unquestioning protection forever -- as she grows, makes friends, goes to school, comes out into society, and eventually gets married, etc.  The idea that there was not already gossip about Edith and Gregson (even minus Marigold) is ridiculous.  Even without knowing of Marigold's existence, anyone knowing Gregson would have "guessed" some sort of extramarital relationship between them ...

 

Edith is not a divorcee.  She was never married.  She had an affair with Gregson, who was married.  Then came Marigold, a bastard child of their affair. 

[shipperx]

I tend to think of it a bit as the last temptation of Edith. Here she is, the woman of perpetually doomed romances and there's this guy who loves her and wants her. And it's the fairytale ending. She knows the truth will jeopardize that. She understands the need to tell the truth but she's seduced by 'just one moment more' then another 'just one moment more' then another. She procrastinates too long. And Mary steals the march and blows it up in the worst possible way. Spitefully.

Edith is aware that it was her own fear and cowardice that she hadn't told Bertie, thus leaving the window of opportunity open for Mary's bitchery. Edith admits her fault to Bertie. She knows she was wrong and understands his position when he says he can't trust her. She does get that and accepts the blame for that.

And none of that exonerates Mary.

Yes, betweenEdith and Bertie, Edith made the (humanly) weak choice. He deserved to know and she dragged her feet to the point that even she is fuzzy about when she might have found the courage to come clean. That's all Edith's responsibility.

But Mary deliberately blew things up in an arch and cruel manner out of pure maliciousness. THAT is Mary's character fault. She didn't 'cost' Edith Bertie. She did, however, intentionally harm her sister over breakfast. So Mary is responsible for her intent because that was Mary's choice and it was petty, vindictive, and cruel. And then she tried to play innocent (even though no one was buying).

Edith admits her fault in regards to Bertie. She doesn't try to defend her actions. She accepted her part of this.

But Mary tried to play innocent when everyone but the butler knows she's a bully where Edith is concerned, and, yes, she was deliberately out to harm Edith's relationship. That malice of intent is on Mary alone.

Edith is responsible for her relationship with Bertie, but Mary is responsible for her own malice.

Edited February 22, 2016 by shipperx

[PRgal]

I think a child like Marigold could have issues even in 2016, considering that her birthfather was married to someone else and Edith is basically going to be seen as a "homewrecker."  A different story if it was an "accident" from a boyfriend or even a one night stand.  But maybe I'm just a tad old school.

[proserpina65]

my favorite laugh was when, after telling everyone who would listen that she couldn't marry down, Mary accused Henry of calling her a gold-digger for suggesting she wouldn't marry him because of his lack of prospect (i.e. marrying down) ..

 

My response was to tell her (through the magic of talking to the tv, of course she could hear me) "No, honey, he's calling you a snob.  Which you are.".

[SusanSunflower]

Edith is not a divorcee.  She was never married.  She had an affair with Gregson, who was married.  Then came Marigold, a bastard child of their affair.

No, but/and the child of a divorcee is not presumed to be illegitimate ... and yet, it was still considered "lowering,"  even an act of generosity and forebearance for a man to marry a divorced woman and raise her child "as his own" ... for Bertie to knowingly marry a woman with bastard child would reflect very badly on Bertie ... that's my point ... even the children of divorce were stigmatized.... my mother, born 1920, for instance, at the well-to-do boarding school she grew up in as a consquence of being an inconvenient reminder of a failed marriage. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[moonb]

The more I think about it, the more the writing/plotting of this episode irritates me. Mary is on edge, explaining her bad behavior to her family, because she's in love with Henry, but that's always told to us, not shown. They're certainly physically attracted to each other, but so were she and Gillingham. Henry is her match, somehow, because he's "strong" (how, exactly? We don't really know him.)  This whole plot was run by the series ending and everything needing to be neat and tidy. I mean, it was a fun episode to watch, but it didn't make a lot of sense. 

 

On the other hand, Mary and Isobel had a scene together! I'd practically forgotten that Isobel was Mary's mother-in-law, since Isobel's scenes are limited to Violet, Dr Clarkson, Lord Merton, and very occasional big family teas. And Mary mostly gets to interact with Tom, Edith, her parents, and various suitors.

 

I will miss Mrs. Patmore and Mrs. Hughes' friendship - always a highlight of the show. 

[Constantinople]

That's convenient.

 

Violet, Burke's peerage incarnate, visits "the South of France".

 

Now the 6th Marquess of Hexham is dead.

 

Malaria my ass.

[Roseanna]

I think Edith was trying to get there in stages. First, when Bertie proposed, she implied that she and Marigold were a package deal; then in the corridor, I think she was winding up to tell him that she wasn't a virgin. If he'd accepted that, the last step would have been a lot easier.

 

We have been never revealed whether Bertie made any conclusion about the fact that Edith had inherited her flat from Michael Gregson, that is, whether he suspected that he had been her lover. Or that he had generally understood and accepted that Edith, being over thirty and working and living partly in London, may have had sexual experiences.

 

His astonished reaction to Mary's words "Edith's past" seems to imply that he did ​expect her to be a virgin.  

 

For all his decency and sweetness he evidently isn't the smartest and wittiest of men for otherwise he would have answered to Mary for instance: "Come on, Mary, we are all over thirty, so naturally every one of us have a past."  

[Avaleigh]

Sounds like a man who had hit his wife "explains" that the wife kept nagging him and he had to silence her. But even a violent man can learn not to react by hitting.

 

A person becomes mentally an adult when she admits that whatever the other people says or does, that does not make her behave like she does but it's only her own choice.  

But Mary is being blamed for Edith getting snarky on her in the first place before Mary brought up Marigold. In this thread it has been claimed that Mary's "silence" is what gave her the right to rub Mary's nose in the fact that she got dumped. (ETA: Seriously, even when Mary remains silent she gets criticized.) Edith could have chosen to not react but she didn't make that choice. 

 

Why is it okay for Edith to react and not okay for Mary to react?

 

I think comparing it to spousal abuse it unfair since those are totally different things. Edith was nasty and Mary got nasty back. It's not like Edith was needling Mary for Mary to respond by physically attacking her. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Driad]

Too bad Larry Grey is engaged, because he and Mary would be a perfect match.  Mary and Larry (hee!) could spend gleeful evenings making lists of people to insult. 

 

And Carson could go work for them.

[Roseanna]

I think a child like Marigold could have issues even in 2016, considering that her birthfather was married to someone else and Edith is basically going to be seen as a "homewrecker." 

 

There was no home to wreck (if a third party can ever do it) as Gregson and his wife hadn't lived together for years. And Gregson could have divorced her a long ago before he met Edith. (Or are Britain's divorce laws still the same?)

 

In any case, no sensible person would nowadays blame a child, whatever their parents did.