S06.E07: Season 6, Episode 7

[kpw801]

PUPPY!!!! She was so cute chewing on her little basket. Watching that scene is the first time I smiled at something on DA in a long time. And Robert / HB's reaction was priceless - that's the face of a very happy dog lover!

Count me among the masses who really could do without Henry and Mary. Personally, I would prefer Mary single. I think her character works best in family and business scenes, but it falls absolutely flat for me in romantic ones. ~In lurve~ Mary just isn't true to the character imo. Why does she need to be married to get her HEA? And, at this point, there is no relationship that makes sense for her. If JF wants Henry to be her future husband, then leave the show off with that - with her realizing she's ready for a new relationship. That would be significantly more believable than a marriage at this point. The other problem is the character of Henry himself. He should have been introduced last season, or one of the eligible bachelors from last season should be on screen now, if matching up Mary is a necessity. I think both actors did well with what they were given, and the scenes, if taken alone - especially the telephone breakup - were really quite well done. The problem was, I just didn't care. The acting was good and I know I was supposed to care, but I didn't. The audience doesn't have enough history with this character or their relationship, and the attempted manipulation isn't working for me.

I also loved Edith and Bertie's sofa scene. I don't particularly care for either the actors or the characters, but that scene was absolutely beautifully shot. And I believed more about Bertie and Edith's relationship just from the visuals in that scene than I did from all the melodrama surrounding Henry and Mary.

Oh, Thomas, Thomas, Thomas. I used to really like you. Why can't you just be evil again? Thomas seasons 1-4 (maybe 1-3) was easily my favorite character. He was fun to watch, he was interesting, and Evil Butler is the best! But he was also a believable villain; he wasn't over the top. There was significant complexity there, and I actually rooted for early-seasons Thomas to get his ish together and succeed.

Now, I just want him to drown in his bathtub of sorrows and leave me alone. Self-loathing, self-pitying characters are my least favorite characters. I can find something to root for in almost anyone who is actually DOING something. But I imagine, after a long day of complaining about how people he treated like shit for a decade aren't suddenly his BFFs, Thomas retires to his room to play his orchestra of tiny violins overseen by a rain cloud. I just don't care. If he would DO something, anything, maybe I could feel something for his character again. But this constant drumbeat of pathetic isn't sad, it's annoying.  Moseley was sort of a sad sack mope the first few seasons, but I rooted for him because he was trying to do something, to better his lot, to get a job, whatever. Just shit or get off the pot, Thomas; I can't take it anymore.

Speaking of Moseley, he has come so far and I think his relationship with Baxter is probably my favorite "romantic" one on the show. This Coyle business, however...Why would I care about Baxter's connection to someone we've never seen regarding an incident/relationship that took place off-screen before the character was introduced?

And Violet was back in fine form this week! I hope we see her again before the end of the series.

I would watch the hell out of a Violet/Puppy/Mrs. Hughes/Mrs. Patmore spin-off.

The thing is, Thomas really wasn't created at first to be an evil genius.  He and O'Brien were a team act.  Thomas would pout about something he felt entitled to, and O'Brien was the evil psychopath who engineered all the schemes.  Thomas didn't even think at first that Pamuk died in Mary's bed.  He told O'Brien, "I know he died in his room because I found him there."  It was O'Brien who kept digging.  

 

They were both envious and and grumbly but O'Brien's resentment was deep and dangerous because she hid it so well.  I truly believe O'Brien hated not just being in service but she resented the people she had to bow and scrape to.  She probably deep down despised Cora because Cora was an American half Jewish newly rich person with no noble blood at all.  It seems she pretended to care about helping Cora do well but we all heard O'Brien call Cora a filthy ungrateful cow, when she assumed she was going to be sacked.  In fact, I never heard any other servant call one of the family nasty names like O'Brien did.  She sniped that she didn't feel she should have to serve a woman like Lady Mary with everything she and Thomas knew about her.

 

Thomas Barrow's character needs a partner in crime that is smarter and more devious than he could ever be.  Thomas may not have been slow or anything but he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, especially the way he let O'Brien trick him with all that crap about Jimmy.  And then, blackmailing Ms. Baxter was too over the top.  JF should have started rehabilitating the character way before now.  The Spratt and Denker show was his attempt to come up with another Thomas and O'Brien team but the characters were not interesting.  I have always hated Spratt after he botched Mosley's chances with Lady Shackleton.  

[RedHawk]

Maybe Spratt's nephew will turn out to be Thomas's (more) evil twin. That would explain a lot. Perhaps Thomas and his twin had been living at the Abbey together for years, switching out with amazing skill and dexterity, until Evil Thomas got caught and put in prison while Not Really Evil Thomas was away in the war. O'Brien would have been the one to figure it out and use it against NRE Thomas.

[Artymouse]

I agree that O'Brien was the mastermind of all evil in the first three seasons -- Her Ladyship's soap, shenanigans with Jimmy, Vera Bates' return (and maybe first visit too; I can't recall), tripping Mr. Bates in the driveway, planting seeds of doubt with Cora about Bates' capability for the job. Of course, Cora stupidly believed her and was a huge snot about Bates in Season 1, but O'Brien started it.

 

Thomas' post-O'Brien schemes tended to backfire and end up with positive outcomes, as with the nanny and outing Gwen at the luncheon.

 

But throughout the series, Thomas has been shown to have flashes of kindness and humanity -- the blind soldier, the death of Sybil, the friendship with Jimmy after the events at the end of S3. And I think his kindness to Andrew is an outgrowth of that.

 

As I've said before, I'm probably biased because I'm a Thomas fan, but I do think this season has been a bit of a redemption arc for him. The conversation with Miss Baxter about being disliked was a glimpse into his soul, and probably a turning point for him.

 

In this episode, we saw him trying harder to fit in than he ever has, and getting shot down each time. The teacher wasn't unkind about taking over Andrew's teaching, but it was just one more rejection onto a big pile of rejections for Thomas. I do believe people can change. Not in every aspect, but enough to make a difference in their behavior, so that's what I hope for his character in the final two episodes. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

What I like about this show is the historical accuracy--the characters and their plot-lines are fun, but the show really shines in its setting. The women's fashions, for example: per Wikipedia, under Chanel, and also under Ready-to-wear, the house of Chanel started in 1909, and by the time of the show's current mid-1920s, women's ready-to-wear (one of my favorite terms, prêt-à-porter) was becoming established, including high-end at the big fashion houses, so the Downton Abbey women had lots of options (which no doubt were altered to fit by Baxter, who is always stitching away in her off-hours) vs the seamstress-made clothing they grew up with.

The same is true for the evolution of the cars, and the household items, and even Mary's lipstick, which she used so casually in the last episode wfter watching Henry do practice laps--the show so expertly doesn't hit us over the head for the most part with drawing attention to these things as they are introduced into the characters' lives, they just happen and build the reality, and we are the lucky ones to enjoy them.

Edited February 17, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[kpw801]

Maybe Spratt's nephew will turn out to be Thomas's (more) evil twin. That would explain a lot. Perhaps Thomas and his twin had been living at the Abbey together for years, switching out with amazing skill and dexterity, until Evil Thomas got caught and put in prison while Not Really Evil Thomas was away in the war. O'Brien would have been the one to figure it out and use it against NRE Thomas.

Now that would be a real soap scheme but funny!  I may be dating myself - although who knows, I could have found this on the net as a millennial - but on the original Dallas back in the 1980s, Patrick Ewing just woke up one day and whole previous season had been a dream!  It could happen, if JF was adventurous enough lol.

I agree that O'Brien was the mastermind of all evil in the first three seasons -- Her Ladyship's soap, shenanigans with Jimmy, Vera Bates' return (and maybe first visit too; I can't recall), tripping Mr. Bates in the driveway, planting seeds of doubt with Cora about Bates' capability for the job. Of course, Cora stupidly believed her and was a huge snot about Bates in Season 1, but O'Brien started it.

 

Thomas' post-O'Brien schemes tended to backfire and end up with positive outcomes, as with the nanny and outing Gwen at the luncheon.

 

But throughout the series, Thomas has been shown to have flashes of kindness and humanity -- the blind soldier, the death of Sybil, the friendship with Jimmy after the events at the end of S3. And I think his kindness to Andrew is an outgrowth of that.

 

As I've said before, I'm probably biased because I'm a Thomas fan, but I do think this season has been a bit of a redemption arc for him. The conversation with Miss Baxter about being disliked was a glimpse into his soul, and probably a turning point for him.

 

In this episode, we saw him trying harder to fit in than he ever has, and getting shot down each time. The teacher wasn't unkind about taking over Andrew's teaching, but it was just one more rejection onto a big pile of rejections for Thomas. I do believe people can change. Not in every aspect, but enough to make a difference in their behavior, so that's what I hope for his character in the final two episodes. 

Yes I suppose I can sort of look past some of the crap Thomas did because unlike O'Brien and sometimes Mary, he ends up paying in some way sometimes.  That acting in the black market scheme was superb!  He was certainly getting what he deserved but the pathos emoted by the actor made you want to weep with him.  I guess we're getting off topic.

Edited February 17, 2016 by kpw801

[helenamonster]

Thanks for the info. That is interesting given that it's a regular episode.

 

Technically, next week's episode is the "season finale" while the ninth episode is the Christmas special, which airs about 1.5-2 months after Episode 8. So Episode 8 each season is usually longer, while the Christmas special is extra supersized.

[Clanstarling]

I think Mary being single and happily managing Downton for her son would be a fitting bookend to the series. IIRC, Mary wasn't particularly interested in getting married in the first season - she was mostly resigned as the only way for them to keep Downton Abbey in the family. She wasn't particularly upset about her fiance dying - only that now she'd be trotted out and be expected to marry the next in line. She does seem to have more affinity with Downton than any particular person.

 

Edith, now, she's been pining to be loved and have a purpose all along. So marriage and her magazine seem a fitting end for her.

 

I'm not particularly invested in any outcomes for anyone else (though I'd love to see Mrs. Patmore and Daisy's father-in-law get married). I think though, with so little time left, there'll need to be a few time jumps to resolve things.

[jschoolgirl]

Bertie and Edith won't work out, I am sure. Edith will have to sacrifice in favor of Marigold.

[Roseanna]

I think Mary being single and happily managing Downton for her son would be a fitting bookend to the series. IIRC, Mary wasn't particularly interested in getting married in the first season - she was mostly resigned as the only way for them to keep Downton Abbey in the family. She wasn't particularly upset about her fiance dying - only that now she'd be trotted out and be expected to marry the next in line. She does seem to have more affinity with Downton than any particular person.

 

That may be true now, but in S1 Mary said that she would married Patrick only if "nothing better" became. Then she was willing to marry the duke simply for his title, without loving him. And if Downton had been her first priority, she would have married Matthew straight away.

 

As for Mary not being "particularly interesting in getting married", she knew that she had to marry and marriage was the only way she could get a position and fortune that were so important yo her. But inside her there was conflicting aims which resulted that she did very little to reach her aim (after the duke at least) and with Pamuk she almost destroyed her chances to marry well. In short, she wasn't at all practical as in some other matters.  

[ShadowFacts]

 

I'm not particularly invested in any outcomes for anyone else (though I'd love to see Mrs. Patmore and Daisy's father-in-law get married). I think though, with so little time left, there'll need to be a few time jumps to resolve things.

I think the action in this episode is still summer-ish, and it's been said that the series won't go further than 1925, so, if the Christmas Special takes place at actual Christmastime, then there is enough time for people to pair up and perhaps marry or at least become engaged.  I think Mrs. Patmore and Mr. Mason would be the most organic (after maybe Baxter and Molesley), but Daisy and Andrew could move things right along, as well.  Of course Isobel could reverse course about Merton any time.  I hope some of them remain happily single.  Because marriage isn't the only happy ending, so I hope some resolutions take that into account.

[Athena]

As a reminder that mentions of what has happened in episodes that haven't aired in the US are considered spoilers including information from promos. No more hinting or discussion of things that have not aired in specific episode threads. There are only two episodes left and we want to make sure no one is unduly spoiled. Please be considerate and be careful when posting in certain topics. Thank you.

 

[seacliffsal]

I was really confused about why Baxter would stay at the Abbey and have two days off instead of going with Cora to London. How could Cora possibly be expected to dress herself and brush her own hair? Any insight as to why Baxter didn't go?

[Macbeth]

I was completely distracted during Mary and her latest's phone call by the sculpture of the woman/beast prominently being shown in the background. That is a piece of art that demands to be noticed.

 

Spare and deliver me from "Poor Thomas."  He was ruining the nicer moments during the show - Carson and Mrs. Hughes relaxing upstairs - Moseley being hired as a teacher.

 

Only a couple of  episodes ago he tried to embarrass Rose when she visited Downton.  Really Thomas you are surprised that people think of you as an ass? How about some self reflection while you are bathing in your tears.  

 

 

[WatchrTina]

 

Any insight as to why Baxter didn't go?

Baxter did go to London.  Remember the scene in the hallway of Lady Rosamund's house where she says to Anna "Am I right to congratulate you?"  That was after she overheard Bates tell Anna not to run after Mary "in your condition" after the crash at the track.

 

 

I was completely distracted during Mary and her latest's phone call by the sculpture of the woman/beast prominently being shown in the background. That is a piece of art that demands to be noticed.

I thought that sphinx sculpture was another deliberate shout-out to the family that owns Highclere Castle, along with Robert naming his dogs after Egyptian deities.  One of their ancestors funded the expedition that found King Tut's tomb.

Edited February 18, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Mrsjumbo]

If she did that would be a nice nod to realism since I think dinner the first night was family-only (that is until race-car-driver-whose-name-I-cannot-be-bothered-to-remember turns up.) So her only taking one evening dress for two nights in London including one dinner where she only expected to be seen by immediate family, seem eminently sensible.

I recently re-watched season's 1 - 3 and one thing I particularly noticed from season 1 was that you did see the same clothes on the upstairs cast many times. In fact, it being Sybil's turn to get a new dress was a plot point of one episode. But Season 6 Mary and Edith seem to have an unending supply of glamorous new clothes. If that gorgeous dress Mary wore in the last episode is "medium smart" I can't wait to see what pull-out-all-the-stops smart looks like. And while Mary looked fabulous at the race, let's not even being to discuss the impracticality of wearing a white/light beige coat to a car race.

I wonder if Cora's mother DID increase Cora's dress allowance after her visit (she said that was the most she could do when they were trying to get her to "save" Downton.) That would help explain their bigger wardrobes. And of course they no longer have to buy dresses for Sybil (sniffle). But really I think the answer is that the show-runners know how much we love the clothes so they gave the costume department a bigger budget and let them go wild with the costume porn.

You know I recently re-watched Gosford Park and one of the guests at the house-party that is the setting for that movie receives some criticism for appearing in the same dress at two dinners in a row but that was during a house-party. Wearing the same dress down to dinner with your family two days in a row surely wouldn't be an unusual decision.

Funny, but I remember in the 1980's version of Brideshead Revisited that the women's clothes (set in the 1920's) were rather bland & it was the men's wardrobe that was fabulous!

I love how Downton is really letting us have our clothes porn- the women's outfits just get better every season, & are a pleasure to study.

[Crs97]

 

 

Spare and deliver me from "Poor Thomas."  He was ruining the nicer moments during the show - Carson and Mrs. Hughes relaxing upstairs - Moseley being hired as a teacher.

Only a couple of  episodes ago he tried to embarrass Rose when she visited Downton.  Really Thomas you are surprised that people think of you as an ass? How about some self reflection while you are bathing in your tears.

 

I think you mean Gwen, but I totally agree.  I finally watched the full episode last night, and I found myself continuing to ask my husband, "Are we supposed to feel sorry for him?"  I didn't.  I thought Mrs. Hughes had the best remark that he needed a fresh start to find his place in the world with the unspoken line "because you burned all your bridges here with your continued unpleasantness."

 

I really felt for Mary.  I am sure she either never saw Matthew's body again or only saw him after he was cleaned up from the crash.  Not only did she watch Charlie die, but she now has a visual for Matthew's death and how awful it was.  She was reeling twice, but was still trying to console Henry and begged him not to force the relationship issue.  I know I am in the minority in finding Mary and Henry sweet together.  I like both of them in their scenes.

 

Edith and Mary seemed pleasant in this episode.  I thought Mary's first remark about Bertie's visiting Edith in London was nice, and she seemed surprised at Edith's response.  Then they ran together to the scene of the accident.  I am sure it won't last, but it makes me frustrated for the entire season that we could have watched their relationship evolve into something nice. With two episodes left, here's hoping.

[terrymct]

The downstairs drama was not very captivating except Mr Carson having to deal with all the kitchen chores. Thomas keeps getting the doormat treatment. Baxter keeps being a martyr, Moleseley gets finally some recognition. Maybe Moleseley's new career is the plot device to keep Thomas at Downton. Though you have to wonder why he should feel any incentive to stay in the place where he is (deservedly and undeservedly) loathed. His weak line about 'roots' wasn't very convincing. Oh and even without the promo we all know Mrs Patmore's B&B is off to a rocky start.

 

The Thomas story line is curious.  Most everyone has some sort of reasonable grounds for disliking him, but their avoidance seems more to be about his sexual orientation.  Does that trump all his machinations?  I wonder why no one has really brought up his actual actions rather than just trying to keep him away from the young man.  When he was shown as being so great with the kids, I wondered if that was going to lead to a discussion of his potentially having a role in caring for them...which would be nixed because he's gay.  I don't think that's the way they're going though.   It DOES seem like the male staff is going to be down to Carson, Bates, and Thomas.

 

I hope Moseley takes the teaching job.  He's been such a damn sad sack.  A way out for him would be welcome. 

[Roseanna]

I really felt for Mary.  I am sure she either never saw Matthew's body again or only saw him after he was cleaned up from the crash.  Not only did she watch Charlie die, but she now has a visual for Matthew's death and how awful it was.  She was reeling twice, but was still trying to console Henry and begged him not to force the relationship issue.  I know I am in the minority in finding Mary and Henry sweet together.  I like both of them in their scenes.

 

Although I did not feel for Mary (probably because I didn't care if Charlie or Henry died),  the scene when Mary tried to console Henry was the only time where they had had real closeness.

 

But then Henry spoiled everything by proposing - he was such a selfish ass, all was about his own needs to seize the moment, not a thought how Mary would feel. A man of some sensitive would have realized that it was the worst possible moment to propose as Mary, terrified as she was, was unlikely to accept. Even if she had said yes, it would have been wrong to use a moment when she was vulnerable and couldn't think soberly - that's not a good a basis on marriage. 

 

Also before when Mary told that her husband had died in a crash, Henry didn't show any empathy, still less understood what his profession meat to her.    

[AndySmith]

I know I am in the minority in finding Mary and Henry sweet together.  I like both of them in their scenes.

 

Save a seat for me...I like them too :)

[ShadowFacts]

 

Edith and Mary seemed pleasant in this episode.  I thought Mary's first remark about Bertie's visiting Edith in London was nice, and she seemed surprised at Edith's response.  Then they ran together to the scene of the accident.  I am sure it won't last, but it makes me frustrated for the entire season that we could have watched their relationship evolve into something nice. With two episodes left, here's hoping.

 

Some progression in the sisters' relationship would be welcome, but I think if anything should have kick-started it, it should have been their father's blood-spewing brush with death. 

[Artymouse]

I was glad to see Mary and Edith's moment after the accident, but I doubt they'll ever be close. They seem to be locked into their childhood roles. I've noticed something recently with my own sister. She's oldest, I'm youngest, and at 50-ish years old, she cannot stop thinking of me as the incompetent baby of the family, and I have to consciously make an effort not to react that way and let her boss me around like a kid. And we have a pretty good relationship, so I can see where Edith and Mary might have trouble breaking out of those patterns.

 

But I think Mary's best scene was talking to Henry after the crash. I think it was the best acting I've seen from Matthew Goode all season, and to me, it was also some of Dockery's best acting this whole season.

[photo fox]

I know I am in the minority in finding Mary and Henry sweet together.  I like both of them in their scenes.

Save a seat for me...I like them too :)

Let's get a table; I like them as well. They just click together for me.

But I think Mary's best scene was talking to Henry after the crash. I think it was the best acting I've seen from Matthew Goode all season, and to me, it was also some of Dockery's best acting this whole season.

This. I think he brings something out in her that no one else does. She seems to relax some of the "lady of the manor" routine with him.

[zoey1996]

And Mother of God, do we have another London detective hanging around trying to pin something on Mrs. Patmore?  Is she suspected of some crime we haven't yet heard about?  Buying black market sausages?  Serving tea without real cream?  Scones without sultanas?

Everyone knows you never serve tea with cream, only milk or lemon :-).  A cream tea is an entirely different thing, and delish too!

[fastiller]

The Thomas story line is curious.  Most everyone has some sort of reasonable grounds for disliking him, but their avoidance seems more to be about his sexual orientation.  Does that trump all his machinations?  I wonder why no one has really brought up his actual actions rather than just trying to keep him away from the young man.  When he was shown as being so great with the kids, I wondered if that was going to lead to a discussion of his potentially having a role in caring for them...which would be nixed because he's gay.  I don't think that's the way they're going though.   It DOES seem like the male staff is going to be down to Carson, Bates, and Thomas.

 

I hope Moseley takes the teaching job.  He's been such a damn sad sack.  A way out for him would be welcome. 

Sadly, I think it does, which isn't odd considering homosexuality was illegal at the time (even though they're probably avoiding him more for 'morality' than legality reasons).

 

Me too; it'll be nice to see him smile.

[helenamonster]

The Thomas story line is curious.  Most everyone has some sort of reasonable grounds for disliking him, but their avoidance seems more to be about his sexual orientation.  Does that trump all his machinations?  I wonder why no one has really brought up his actual actions rather than just trying to keep him away from the young man.  When he was shown as being so great with the kids, I wondered if that was going to lead to a discussion of his potentially having a role in caring for them...which would be nixed because he's gay.  I don't think that's the way they're going though.   It DOES seem like the male staff is going to be down to Carson, Bates, and Thomas.

 

Interesting. I always thought the opposite, that they'd all long ago gotten over his sexual orientation and simply disliked him because he was terrible, but he had somehow convinced himself that it was actually because of his being gay. I do, however, think that everyone is more inclined to give him side-eye when he has any kind of interaction with a young male servant than they might be if he was straight and had a habit of flirting with the maids. But I agree with fastiller that they are all products of their time and the morals with which they've always lived with.

[ShadowFacts]

Andrew was having some trepidation about Thomas' sexual orientation, and Carson famously called him 'foul' for being who he is, years ago. Andrew has apologized for not treating him very well, Carson, well not until pigs fly.  The women seem indifferent about it by now; some, like Baxter, and Hughes in this episode, are trying to steer him to a happier future.  But recently that butler he interviewed with made a snide reference to his marital status, so it's still a "thing" for Thomas and will be forever and ever. 

[Clanstarling]

Although I did not feel for Mary (probably because I didn't care if Charlie or Henry died),  the scene when Mary tried to console Henry was the only time where they had had real closeness.

 

But then Henry spoiled everything by proposing - he was such a selfish ass, all was about his own needs to seize the moment, not a thought how Mary would feel. A man of some sensitive would have realized that it was the worst possible moment to propose as Mary, terrified as she was, was unlikely to accept. Even if she had said yes, it would have been wrong to use a moment when she was vulnerable and couldn't think soberly - that's not a good a basis on marriage. 

 

Also before when Mary told that her husband had died in a crash, Henry didn't show any empathy, still less understood what his profession meat to her.    

Me, I'd cut Henry some slack. He's the one who just had the immediate loss - of a very, very close friend. He's arguably in way more pain than Mary, whose loss was not so immediate. Trying to get Mary to define their relationship was not wise - but understandable that he'd want to grab onto love in the midst of his grief. Mary was right to try to put him off and leave the conversation for a less emotional time, and then ultimately right in ending it. But I wouldn't call Henry an insensitive ass because he couldn't see past his own grief.

[Roseanna]

This. I think he brings something out in her that no one else does. She seems to relax some of the "lady of the manor" routine with him.

 

???

 

After Matthew Mary is most relaxing with Tom with whom she can spoke openly (he could even tease her for her selfishness and although she didn't like it, she didn't make any sharp comment back.). But she also spoke about her sorrow to Gillingham when they were riding, and Blake made her laugh and act spontaneously in the pig scene. With Henry she has been hard as nails, flirted calculatedly and played power games. She has never spoken openly with him. The only time there was any closeness was after the crash.

[photo fox]

Certainly many people share your opinion, Roseanna, but I see it differently. If we all agreed, this site would be no fun. ;-)

Yes, Mary is somewhat casual with Tom, and I like their friendship. But in my opinion, she never lets go of being "Lady Mary Crawley, estate agent of Downton Abbey". I feel like Henry distracts her from that a bit. She seems more like a "regular person" with him. *shrug*

[Roseanna]

Me, I'd cut Henry some slack. He's the one who just had the immediate loss - of a very, very close friend. He's arguably in way more pain than Mary, whose loss was not so immediate. Trying to get Mary to define their relationship was not wise - but understandable that he'd want to grab onto love in the midst of his grief. Mary was right to try to put him off and leave the conversation for a less emotional time, and then ultimately right in ending it. But I wouldn't call Henry an insensitive ass because he couldn't see past his own grief.

 

Henry lost his best friend, but Mary had lost her lover, her best friend, her husband, the father of her child, the heir of Downton Abbey and the only person who made her soft, so even after years Mary's grief is much greater.

 

If Henry was really grieving, he would have thought of his friend and how to comfort his family at least one night after his death  - not himself and how to be happy by making a decision in a rush.  

[Mrsjumbo]

The Thomas story line is curious. Most everyone has some sort of reasonable grounds for disliking him, but their avoidance seems more to be about his sexual orientation. Does that trump all his machinations? I wonder why no one has really brought up his actual actions rather than just trying to keep him away from the young man. When he was shown as being so great with the kids, I wondered if that was going to lead to a discussion of his potentially having a role in caring for them...which would be nixed because he's gay. I don't think that's the way they're going though. It DOES seem like the male staff is going to be down to Carson, Bates, and Thomas.

I hope Moseley takes the teaching job. He's been such a damn sad sack. A way out for him would be welcome.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm having increasing difficulty wrt Mary's aversion to Henry's profession -- because Matthew ... Mary didn't see Matthew's accident (no PTSD), and Matthew died quickly, even "painlessly" and there was no fire.  Matthew obviously should have been more careful when going over a blind-hill, but he was not going riotously fast or driving particularly recklessly ...

 

Being afraid of suddenly losing someone you love, because it happened before and you know know blah blah blah, that I understand ... 

 

I might (maybe maybe) understand Mary's alleged "aversion" if she had arrived at the scene before Matthew was removed from the car ... or if Matthew's corpse had been disfigured by a fire .... but seriously, even safe-as-houses railroad trains leave the tracks periodically because of similarly large impediments (boulders) to their continuing safely to their destination... 

I can think of many reasons to have no interest in a race car driver, who is likely to be preoccupied with carburetors and pistons, and to smell like gasoline ... see also weight-lifters ... all tolerable if they have other interests and other people to discuss their passion with, iykwim... 

Edited February 18, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Mrsjumbo]

When Anna has her baby perhaps they will leave service & open their pub or whatever they were going to do. Give Carson a heart attack & Boom! Thomas is it.

[skyways]

Roseanna you took the words out of my mouth. Cause I was huh?? at the same post too. I think by accepting that the Mary/Henry, car, Matthew drama was ridiculously written is the best way to make sense of it all. Unless it was to tell us, the audience that Mary feels something more for this person and that's why she reacted the way she did??? But if that were so, why tell him that their parting was for the best? His immediately pushing her to get married afterwards despite his 'overwhelming' grief is a bit unbelievable. Is he saying, ' my friend has died playing this dangerous sport I love. I too may die playing this dangerous sport so let's get married'??!! or is he saying, 'I'm really crying and grieving and I can't believe what just happened. My grief is such that I want to get married'???!!!

  I can't imagine what else could be going on in his mind to prompt that proposal at such a time ( bad writing aside) so either way it's nonsensical.

 

 

She seems more like a "regular person" with him. *shrug*

 

Maybe because she went to a pub for the first time? put on her lipstick in public?? How regular do you mean? Because her rolling in the mud and making eggs is something I NEVER thought I would see with her.

Edited February 18, 2016 by skyways

[jschoolgirl]

When Anna has her baby perhaps they will leave service & open their pub or whatever they were going to do. Give Carson a heart attack & Boom! Thomas is it.

I've been getting a feeling that Carson may not be long for this world. Some of the lingering shots of him have seemed to me to express forboding, especially when he took his name from his old room door and when he spoke of Robert's illness. And hs death would leave a vacancy Thomas could assume, but Thomas has such contempt for the way of life, the family, and the staff that I'd rather see him work at a hotel or restaurant or private club.

Carson's death at the end of the series would really hammer home that the old ways are over, in a way that even Violet's death would not. I am unspoiled, BTW.

Edited because punctuation is important.

Edited February 19, 2016 by jschoolgirl

[izabella]

Roseanna you took the words out of my mouth. Cause I was huh?? at the same post too. I think by accepting that the Mary/Henry, car, Matthew drama was ridiculously written is the best way to make sense of it all. Unless it was to tell us, the audience that Mary feels something more for this person and that's why she reacted the way she did??? But if that were so, why tell him that their parting was for the best? His immediately pushing her to get married afterwards despite his 'overwhelming' grief is a bit unbelievable. Is he saying, ' my friend has died playing this dangerous sport I love. I too may die playing this dangerous sport so let's get married'??!! or is he saying, 'I'm really crying and grieving and I can't believe what just happened. My grief is such that I want to get married'???!!!

  I can't imagine what else could be going on in his mind to prompt that proposal at such a time ( bad writing aside) so either way it's nonsensical.

 

If I still thought they were endgame, like in a romantic movie, I could see the car stuff as just being the impediment to their grand love that every good romance needs to be interesting.  Something has to keep the couple apart until the end, and sometimes it feels overly contrived, like it does on DA.

 

It's just that Tom's storyline is entirely about Mary, so I'm less certain that Henry is the one. 

[SusanSunflower]

I think at a moment like that -- after the death of a friend -- the LAST thing Henry would invite is REJECTION, which I think even he would acknowledge was likely after the events of the day ... etc.  It may have been characteristically "cold" of Mary, but it was both clueless and unlikely, given what we known about what Henry knows about Mary... etc.  Why was Henry home alone (and apparently stone-cold sober) and not with the rest of the "team"? 

[AndySmith]

Eh, people grieve differently, and in different ways. There isn't a textbook list saying we all grieve the same.

[Roseanna]

It may have been characteristically "cold" of Mary,

 

I don't regard Mary cold in this scene. She tried to avoid the issue, but Henry insisted that she would accept at once. ​That was quite senseless, for if Henry had any hope to get Mary accept, he would have given her time to ponder. As he didn't, it's hard to believe in his love. He thought first of all his own happiness, not Mary's. 

[Roseanna]

I can think of many reasons to have no interest in a race car driver,

 

Yes, but I can remember that Howard Hawks could make men of that kind interesting to also someone like me who isn't interested in their profession at all. And it was because these men had characters, values and problems that were generally interesting. 

 

For some reason JF had presented Henry in such way that we don't know practically anything about him as a person. Well, not quite, in Brancaster his questions to Mary showed that he had realized that she didn't know the woman who came there with her boy - he is also a keen observer. But after that his proposal was the first time one could make conclusions of his character - and not good one: he was selfish and insensitive. 

 

Instead, we have seen many qualities of Bertie whom we have seen in as few scenes: he isn't ambitious and seems unassuming, but in fact he can organize things, he is decent and helpful. And before all, he offers his love to Edith whereas Henry demands Mary to love him.

 

Also, as Mary is cold (at least on the surface), I don't think that it was a good idea that Henry is a cold fish also. What makes Mary's scenes with Matthew and then Tom so great that, because they are basically warm, she will become with them warmer also. When this warmth is in S2 only under the surface, it's even a greater enjoyment to the audience to realize it.

 

Despite the scene after the crash being the best between Mary and Henry, there was no such tenderness as with Matthew. She could have done the same for Henry simply for pity.    

[Roseanna]

Certainly many people share your opinion, Roseanna, but I see it differently. If we all agreed, this site would be no fun. ;-)

Yes, Mary is somewhat casual with Tom, and I like their friendship. But in my opinion, she never lets go of being "Lady Mary Crawley, estate agent of Downton Abbey". I feel like Henry distracts her from that a bit. She seems more like a "regular person" with him. *shrug*

 

It's of course OK to see differently. Only, would you please tell what you exactly see? And what you mean with a "regular person"?

 

All I see that Mary flirts more openly in London but that flirting seems cold and calculating, like this is a new fling, not a serious relatiosnhip. But I don't see a moment when she lets go her title and position (she even underscores them in the pub). 

 

I see also that Mary is now more active than she has ever been: she has twice arranged a date. And the meetings are mostly done outside Downton.

[Andorra]

Also, as Mary is cold (at least on the surface), I don't think that it was a good idea that Henry is a cold fish also. What makes Mary's scenes with Matthew and then Tom so great that, because they are basically warm, she will become with them warmer also. When this warmth is in S2 only under the surface, it's even a greater enjoyment to the audience to realize it.

 

Despite the scene after the crash being the best between Mary and Henry, there was no such tenderness as with Matthew. She could have done the same for Henry simply for pity.    

 

I couldn't agree more and here' where I think Julian Fellowes made a mistake. He should have created Henry less "dashing" but with more warmth and compassion. Two people who seem to be above all sentiment are no fun to watch. Tom and Mary is such a great  relationship, because he - unlike her - wears his heart on his sleeve and is not afraid to tell her what he thinks. It was the same with Matthew. 

 

 

It's of course OK to see differently. Only, would you please tell what you exactly see? And what you mean with a "regular person"?

 

 

I'll second that wish. I really, really can't see it. To me she is all facade when she is with Henry. Nothing genuine about her nor him. They're playing games and there's not one genuine conversation between them except after the crash. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Andorra

[Clanstarling]

I don't regard Mary cold in this scene. She tried to avoid the issue, but Henry insisted that she would accept at once. ​That was quite senseless, for if Henry had any hope to get Mary accept, he would have given her time to ponder. As he didn't, it's hard to believe in his love. He thought first of all his own happiness, not Mary's. 

I might disagree about Henry, but I do absolutely agree about Mary in this scene.

Edited February 19, 2016 by clanstarling

[ShadowFacts]

I am not sure what to make of Tom's belief in the Mary + Henry pairing.  He seems to sincerely believe they are right for each other.  He cares for Mary and her happiness obviously, but what does he see there that makes him think they are suited?  I can't recall him actually saying why. 

[Andorra]

I am not sure what to make of Tom's belief in the Mary + Henry pairing.  He seems to sincerely believe they are right for each other.  He cares for Mary and her happiness obviously, but what does he see there that makes him think they are suited?  I can't recall him actually saying why. 

 

He has no real reason. Nor does anyone else. There are an apparent mismacht, but Julian Fellowes has decided Mary has to be paired off to the most expensive actor of the lot. So Tom has to sell it to us (and Mary) at all costs and no matter if it makes sense or not. 

[dustoffmom]

Well Andorra, I find it hard to believe that he is the 'most expensive' actor of the group.  You telling me he earns more than Maggie Smith??  Heresy I say!  :)

 

[SusanSunflower]

If we didn't know the show was ending, I would say that Mary and Henry were ripe for a sloppy embrace, passionate kiss and some engine-racing ... but there's no way they are anywhere near ready to get married ... We might have been shown intimacy, even in that badly considered phone call, but in fact we weren't, I'm not even sure we saw a lasting thaw. A few tears by either party would have not been amiss, but... Mary reminds me of the fictional character (who/what/when??) who required her suitors to always ask permission (prego) before kissing and likely would expect that same after marriage... the character was horrified to be considered that "cold" and intimidating that she changed her ways to become more approachable. 

Henry kept looking -- rather unfortunately -- as if he was just waiting for her defenses to crumble because he knows they will -- or something -- which makes him look rather passive and/or egotistical and/or equally games-playing ... now that he's declared his intentions, and been rebuffed -- wait!! I think I've seen this movie. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

Well Andorra, I find it hard to believe that he is the 'most expensive' actor of the group.  You telling me he earns more than Maggie Smith??  Heresy I say!  :)

 

I think he's the most expensive of the guests. He's the biggest name. I'm sure Maggie has her own special contract, but Matthew Goode is by far the most "famous" name among the young actors they hired as guests. 

[Miss Slay]

I think Mary being single and happily managing Downton for her son would be a fitting bookend to the series. IIRC, Mary wasn't particularly interested in getting married in the first season - she was mostly resigned as the only way for them to keep Downton Abbey in the family. She wasn't particularly upset about her fiance dying - only that now she'd be trotted out and be expected to marry the next in line. She does seem to have more affinity with Downton than any particular person.

 

 

What? Mary mourned Matthew most of Season 4.

[SusanSunflower]

Patrick (fiancé) who drowned on the Titanic at the start of season 1 versus Husband Matthew? 

Edited February 20, 2016 by SusanSunflower