S06.E06: Season 6, Episode 6

[sark1624]

The most simply thing that Edith could have done with Marigold is having the baby in switzerland, came back to London, stay there a few weeks and go to Downton with the baby. Then she can said that is the child of a relative of some one who works in the magazine or she got interesed in some charity about orphans; in the worst scenario if she face the negative of the family she could go easily go to live in London with the baby and a nanny, etc. And for excuse she can say that if she cant have a husband at least she can have something similiar to a daughter. A good plan is a simply one.

 

Also if we consider the lack of men in that period it wanst strange that rich spynters like Edith or Rosamound adopt some child. Even, it seems odd that Rosamound never adopted some orphan, i know that it sound like if they were taking a pet, but having in consideration the enviroment of some poor kids in that time, those were the "lucky ones". Even seeing as adopted girl by Edith, Marigold would have a far better future thatthe majority of the kids of the country, money for education, conexions, in the future could have inherit Edith´s business, etc

[Roseanna]

Mr Drewe was trying to protect Edith's reputation by distancing her from the child - not knowing that she was going to be unable to maintain any distance at all. After that, it was just a snowball effect. Like I said above: a chemical cocktail of personalities and circumstances spiralling out of control. All parties involved tried to do what they thought was best, based on the information available to them. And they all made mistakes, because they are fallible human beings. That's what made it such an interesting and complex story. It wasn't about right and wrong, or about goodies versus baddies. It was a story about flawed human beings acting according to their own needs, beliefs and emotions, and for me, the interest in such a story lies in trying to understand the perspective and motivations of the characters involved, rather than screaming abuse at them for not behaving as I think they should (or for being opposed to a character I favour).

 

I agree with you that it was a good example of escalation: one party does something, the other party reacts to it, then the former part reacts to it etc. The result was the one neither party originally wanted, still less planned.

 

One high officer answered when asked how the wars were begun: "It's like one restaurant in our youth. Never had one exactly a plan to go there, but somehow one just ended up there in the evening."    

[AndySmith]

Or she could have just had an abortion. Though I have no idea how safe the procedure was back then.

[Llywela]

Or she could have just had an abortion. Though I have no idea how safe the procedure was back then.

The safety of the rpocedure depended on who you went to - Edith considered it, and made it as far as the clinic (a posh clinic where safety standards would have been high), but ultimately couldn't go through with it.

[Roseanna]

The most simply thing that Edith could have done with Marigold is having the baby in switzerland, came back to London, stay there a few weeks and go to Downton with the baby. Then she can said that is the child of a relative of some one who works in the magazine or she got interesed in some charity about orphans; in the worst scenario if she face the negative of the family she could go easily go to live in London with the baby and a nanny, etc. And for excuse she can say that if she cant have a husband at least she can have something similiar to a daughter. A good plan is a simply one.

 

If Edith had returned from Switzerland with a baby, there would have been many who would have suspected about the truth of her story, being able to calculate Gregson's journey to Germany, Edith's stay in Switzerland and the child's age, especially if Marigold had looked like her or Gregson. And one must remember that Rosamund and Violet pressured Edith to leave the baby to a Swiss couple. That she breastfeeded her baby was probably a "mistake" for it created a bond and she couldn't stand to be part of her child which she couldn't know beforehand. Before she inherited Gregson's magazine and flat, she probably had no means to live in London and his unknown fate depressed her also.

 

The wisest course would from have to tell Cora who proved to be more warm-hearted than Rosamund and Violet. But f.ex. Dorothy L. Sayers never told her parents about her illegitimate son. Otherwise Sayers's solution was so good as was possible in the circumstances: the baby was cared by her unmarried cousin who also tended other children and when he was older, "adopted" by Sayers.

 

But if Edith had chosen the wisest course, there would be no plot which needs secrets and confrontation.

[millennium]

Type casting is one reason. The other is the matter both salary and career potential -- having to turn down much more interesting parts (often for new improved salary) because you're under contract is a quite real incentive to get out while you're on the upswing ... the more middle aged characters are happy for steady work ($$$) for so very long and the exposure ... but I suspect that McGovern and Bonneville, etc. were all very carefully and generously contracted  after Stevens left ...  particularly since their roles really have not expanded enough to be worth the years of  "treading water" in the same old part. 

 

Note that Bonneville and McGovern really don't need to worry about typecasting ... Carmichael and Dockerty being younger and relatively untried do .. Most of the older actors had plenty of credits before the first DA episode aired. That's how they got their parts. 

 

Dockery seems hell bent on eradicating every last trace of Lady Mary.    Have you seen the trailer for her new TNT series, Good Behavior?

[Haleth]

No, there wasn't a librarian mentioned in that episode. The Librarian was only mentioned when Gregson was there for a visit and Robert told him they had a Gutenberg bible, but he had no idea where and the librarian wasn't there that day. (I thought it was ridiculous that they would have a Gutenberg Bible and just have it stand around in a dusty corner? Very unbelievable!). 

I know!  That thing should be on loan to a museum where it can be cared for properly.

 

It's "interesting" to wonder who has been delegated to be on standby when Bates and Anna and now Carson and Hughes are out of the building, in fact making a very good case for Thomas to be standby butler and Molesley as off-hours valet to Robert ... with additional off-hour duties (Anna and Hughes) also going to Baxter ... meh. The scene of Bates and Anna walking to the big house in the "early morning" seemed off to me -- even though neither Robert nor Mary have ever been shown to be early risers .. still -- the sun was out and the sky was blue as they "sauntered" ...  FWIW, I assumed they were talking about being late for their own breakfast ... 

Ha!  The idea of backup staff on standby is funny, you know, in case of an emergency.  OMG!  Who will tie my shoe???  Who will brush my hair???  Oh, the humanity!

[JudyObscure]

Why and how on earth did people think they [Hughes and Carson} were a match????

 

Come to think of it, I believe I wanted the match due to the sad ending in Remains of the Day.  In that, one of my favorite movies, Emma Thompson plays a housekeeper in the 1920's -30's   who is in love  with  the butler, played by Anthony Hopkins.  He is even more stuffy and critical than Carson, but  too repressed to allow  himself to realize his love for Emma until the end of the film, when it's too late. 

 

So I shipped it, but I can't excuse Carson's behavior because he's a traditionalist.  It has never, ever been proper etiquette to find fault with a meal someone has prepared for you.  Adam probably complained about Eve serving him the same thing every day and look how that went down.

Edited February 10, 2016 by JudyObscure

[Roseanna]

Also if we consider the lack of men in that period it wanst strange that rich spynters like Edith or Rosamound adopt some child. Even, it seems odd that Rosamound never adopted some orphan, i know that it sound like if they were taking a pet, but having in consideration the enviroment of some poor kids in that time, those were the "lucky ones". Even seeing as adopted girl by Edith, Marigold would have a far better future thatthe majority of the kids of the country, money for education, conexions, in the future could have inherit Edith´s business, etc

 

Maybe Rosamund didn't like children, at least when they were young.

 

Otherwise it would have been a good idea that she would have "adopted" Marigold. Edith could have visited her aunt so often she liked. And after awhile she could have moved to live with Rosamund in London, presumably to follow betters matters about which she wrote. And when she inherited her own flat, Rosamund would have noticed that caring for Marigold caused too much trouble in her age.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Come to think of it, I believe I wanted the match due to the sad ending in Remains of the Day.  In that, one of my favorite movies, Emma Thompson plays a housekeeper in the 1920's -30's   who is in love  with  the butler, played by Anthony Hopkins.  He is even more stuffy and critical than Carson, but  too repressed to allow  himself to realize his love for Emma until the end of the film, when it's too late. 

 

So I shipped it, but I can't excuse Carson's behavior because he's a traditionalist.  It has never, ever been proper etiquette to find fault with a meal someone has prepared for you.  Adam probably complained about Eve serving him the same thing every day and look how that went down.

 

I think the trouble is that before they got married, they were effectively equals in the great house.  Now they aren't, at least Carson doesn't think so, and he is too old to change, as Mrs. Patmore observed.  Elsie herself said it before they settled on the reception site, he's going to get his way on everything else, just let her have this one day.  That's sad.  She's traded her independence for financial security.  He is a big booby, as she so aptly put it awhile back.  Even if she objects to his treatment soon, it won't be enough for me, I have buyer's remorse for her by proxy. 

[Haleth]

I have no doubt she will eventually have it up to here with his hints and insults and will blow up (in her own calm and rational way).  Then of course he'll see the error of his ways and all will be well.

[kassa]

It was Mr Drewe who decided not to tell her wife Edith's story that Marigold was a child of her late friend, but tell that Marigold was a child of his late friend. We were never told why. Didn't he trust his wife?

 

 

Mr Drewe was trying to protect Edith's reputation by distancing her from the child - not knowing that she was going to be unable to maintain any distance at all. After that, it was just a snowball effect.

 

 

 

This, plus Edith's story wouldn't really have made sense to people from Edith's world or the Drewes'.  You honor your friendship by taking your dead friend's child and handing her over to the pig farmer? When you have a nursery, nursery staff and a zillion rooms in your own house?  (Not that it's her house, precisely, but you know what I mean.)  To Edith's set, setting the kid up with a genteel foster family and then shipping her off to boarding school as soon as practical would be the thing to do if she didn't want the daily bother of her care -- not fobbing her off on a farmer.  There were plenty of gentlewomen struggling to get by who would take in a child with a healthy stipend attached.  Hell, Isobel would have done it for free AND kept the secret AND made it possible for Marigold to be in everybody's life from the get go. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by kassa

[WatchrTina]

I'm very interested to see how Mary is going to react when her suspicions about Marigold are confirmed.  Remember all the way back to Season 1 when Mr. Pamuk died in Mary's bed -- the whispered conversation between her and her mother about how, if it came out, she would be "notorious" until the end of her days.  She'd be "ruined".  Of course it did come out and she wasn't ruined, though perhaps a whiff of notoriety still surrounds her.  Edith was in a similar boat only more so because since Edith is the one who tried to ruin Mary, Edith knew she could not expect Mary's support in her time of trial (quite the opposite).  And Edith was equally desirious of not being "notorious", not being "ruined" so . . . secrets and lies ensued.

 

Now we're going to find out if Mary's reaction to Edith's secret shame is going to parallel Edith's reaction to learning of Mary's night of "Turkish Delights."  I don't think it will.  I think Mary has grown up some.  She may be jealous of Edith's freedom (career and flat in London) and resentful about the whole family lying to her but I'm hopeful that her reaction will be only to feel hurt that no one trusted her.  What's the worse thing she could do -- tell her friends that the family's ward is actually Edith's illegitimate child?  Leak it to someone who puts it in the gossip column of a newspaper?  That would hurt the family and hurt George by extension (because once she's public knowledge, the existence of a bastard cousin will continue to be bandied about.)  If it's not public knowledge then the worst she could do is snipe at Edith in private about being a "fallen woman" and in that case Edith can reply with three words:  Pot.  Kettle.  Black.  

 

No I'm hoping that Mary's reaction is simply to express her disappointment that no one trusted her and to affirm that Marigold is a member of the family and will be looked after as such.  She'll be imperious while she does it -- she's still Mary -- but I feel certain that this last big family secret will finally be defused.  Mary might even find common ground with her sister.  After all, they both lost the men they loved under tragic circumstances but have the solace of a child to help them through it.  I'm hoping a bit of that comes out.  Tom has been allowed to change and grow as a person.  Even Lord Grantham has mellowed (chatting with that little interloper in his bedroom with aplomb.)  Can't Mary and Edith's childhood rivalry finally be laid to rest (or at least mellow significantly) now in Season 6?  Especially if they both find love as well?

Edited February 10, 2016 by WatchrTina

[AndySmith]

Can't Mary and Edith's childhood rivalry finally be laid to rest (or at least mellow significantly) now in Season 6?  Especially if they both find love as well?

 

Considering JF, and his writing, they'll probably keep squabbling up until the final scene of the final episode. And even then, it will probably be the warmest and most cordial of handshakes, in a "bygones" kind of way.

Edited February 10, 2016 by AndySmith

[RedHawk]

Looks like we're headed for a verbal explosion from Mrs. Hughes-Carson, but if that's how she handles her husband I'll be disappointed. She's been shown to be no nonsense but also gentle and perceptive. She's making a big mistake by holding her tongue so long rather than figure out how to manage the big booby even if he's now her husband and not just her co-worker/boss.

Yes, couples have to wear down the rough edges when they marry, but I find this story line of Carson being such a jerk out of character for both him and Mrs. Hughes. He used to be solicitous of her and she subtly directed him.

Or maybe that's their problem? They each are playing the husband-wife roles they think they're supposed to play rather than treating each other like the friends they have always been.

Edited February 10, 2016 by RedHawk

[Clanstarling]

Yes, couples have to wear down the rough edges when they marry, but I find this story line of Carson being such a jerk out of character for both him and Mrs. Hughes. He used to be solicitous of her and she subtly directed him.

Or maybe that's their problem? They each are playing the husband-wife roles they think they're supposed to play rather than treating each other like the friends they have always been.

That's a good observation - I've seen that happen with friends and family. They think they need to behave a certain way (always do things together, give up interests and pursuits (largely women, but I have seen it happen with some men).

[terrymct]

 All Mrs. Drewe did was become a mother to a child in need. She committed fully to Marigold as if she'd given birth to her and in return she got treated like the problem when she thought she was being the solution. IMO, Mrs. Drewe is as innocent as Marigold. She got punished for being a loving, generous person. She lost her home, the child she loved and the ability to trust her husband.

 

Exactly.  The Drewe family, Mrs Drewe in particular, opened their hearts and took a child in and for their trouble they lost their home and farm.

[Hanahope]

So I have to wonder, if Edith doesn't have her own maid, who is doing her hair?  I can understand that she's likely able to dress herself given the much simpler clothes, but her hair is still fairly complex, since its still long, compared to Mary's.  And even though Edith is older, since she's never been married, isn't it odd that she's not traveling with some sort of companion?  And does she have any servants at the London flat or is she really making her own breakfast and bed?

 

I too have some sympathy to Mrs. Hughes/Carson.  I wonder if she really knew what she was getting into and really what sortof trade-off she's getting.  I'm sure she expected, at least to some extent, that they would do like the Bates' and take their meals at the big house so Anna didn't have to worry about cooking.  It really is a bit presumptuous of Mr. Carson to expect Mrs. Hughes to be this great cook when she's spent the last several decades (at least) as the housekeeper.

 

Daisy really is becoming a mini-Sarah Bunting, with her statement that the private homes of the rich should be opened to anyone and everyone that wants to have a looksee.  Why doesn't she just leave her bedroom door open for everyone?  What about Mr. Mason's door?  Obviously she thinks Mr. Mason should have more privacy than the Crawleys, especially since she's constantly harping on Mrs. Patmore to leave Mr. Mason alone.  What a up and true bitch she is.

 

The lack of knowledge of the family as to their history is just another example of how/why the big houses were being sold off lock, stock and barrel.  As stated by that one man selling his home, his kids weren't interested in any of the paintings or belongings.  That's because they didn't know anything about them.  Maybe if you toffs taught your children some of their family history, they'd be more interested in helping preserve it.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Hanahope

[SusanSunflower]

I'll admit I haven't paid attention (perhaps because there was nothing to notice) wrt Edith's relationship with Violet and Rosamund ... If.I.were.her I'd not be too quick to forgive ... I gave Edith some slack wrt the Drewes because she was improvising (badly) in a panic having lost faith in Violet and Rosamund's trustworthiness and support.  As I recall, she wasn't sure that they might not kidnap Marigold and spirit her away and she was still trying to pretend that nobody knew and it was a dire secret that must be kept ... even as more and more people were told or guessed. 

 

fwiw, Anna saw the "sneaky" hand off of Marigold between Edith and Mr. Drewe in the train at the train station on Edith's return to Downton after running away to London ... Ridiculous for Mr. Drewe to continue the charade with his wife, and she had been yelled at by him often enough there was no room for her to "demand" to be told the truth, etc. She obviously wasn't a simpleton, just written that way. 

[sark1624]

I think that the "worst" enemy to Edith and Marigold was Violet not Rosamound, it was Violet who in the first place wanted that Marigold was taken to go to some school in France, and if we noticed, Violet pressured Rosamound and Edith to inform her about Edith´s pregnancy and when she knew about Marigold with the Drewes she came up with the new plan. And in every conversation she seems to pressure Rosamound in everything, and for that reason, every time Rosamound take any oportunity to be againt her (the hospital, Edith, etc) even Mary admited that Rosamound would take any possition that allow her to contradict her mother.

[proserpina65]

Look, we can sympathise with Edith without twisting things to try to make Margie Drewe the villain of the piece.

 

I'm not trying to make Mrs. Drewe into a villain.  There are no villains in the situation, not Edith, not either of the Drewes, not even Violet and Rosamund, who certainly would've preferred that Marigold stay with her first foster family far, far away from the Crawleys, which is perhaps an unfortunate perspective but one well in keeping with the time period and the family's position in society.  It was a crappy situation not well-handled by ANY of the people involved.  But it will remain my opinion that Mrs. Drewe was the one who came off as obsessed with Marigold from early on, because that is how she seemed to me at the time based on her scenes with the child.

[proserpina65]

She always plays roles like that actually. At least in those shows I have seen her in. "Downton", "Cinderella", "Job lot", "Galavant". But actually I agree with Julian Fellowes somewhat: Being typecast is not always bad. If someone searches for an actress to play the annoying or nasty, little, pretty thing, they probably think of Sophie McSheera very early on. She's talented, but she is not "romantic lead type". She has a comical talented and can actually sing quite well (as you can see in "Galavant") and so she can do many variations of those kind of roles. And she looks extremely young. I think she will do well. 

Her role on Galavant isn't much like Daisy at all.  Yes, she was a servant, but not the shrew that Daisy has become over the last two seasons.

[AndySmith]

will remain my opinion that Mrs. Drewe was the one who came off as obsessed with Marigold from early on, because that is how she seemed to me at the time based on her scenes with the child.

 

I never saw her as obsessed at the beginning. She may have been later on, but I can understand that as she might have formed some sort of attachment to Marigold.

[proserpina65]

Exactly.  The Drewe family, Mrs Drewe in particular, opened their hearts and took a child in and for their trouble they lost their home and farm.

They lost the farm because Mrs. Drewe wouldn't accept that she couldn't keep Marigold, and for all intents and purposes kidnapped her (although possibly not in the legal sense).  Her taking Marigold from the farm show without permission was the deciding factor.  Prior to that action, the Drewes were still working Yew Tree Farm with the full support of Mary, at least.  So, yes, the situation sucked, but it was Mrs. Drewe's actions which caused Mr. Drewe and Robert to determine that they had to leave the area.  Had she simply accepted that Marigold was gone - and was living with her biological family, a fact of which Mrs. Drewe was well aware - they'd have been able to stay at the farm for as long as the Crawleys chose to continue to have tenants there.

[SusanSunflower]

and I beg to differ -- I think "something" -- even just the Drewes knowing the truth about Marigold -- would have arisen at some point.  It's one of those initimacy things.  I think the subtext is that when the borders of class relationships are broken down (by whichever party),  it throws everything off and that it is usually the lower classes who "pay"  -- the aristocracy simply go on with their lives ... tenants, servants, other underlings have to leave -- whee -- Remember "nothing happened" Robert's infatuation with Jane (or whatever her name was).  Downton really hasn't dwelled on "upstairs" exploitation of "downstairs" -- but then again there's Anna having to buy and then conceal Mary's contraceptives and Bates' "misunderstanding" ...  The Drewes were (and are) expected to take Edith's secret to their graves... 

Edited February 10, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Milburn Stone]

The Drewes were (and are) expected to take Edith's secret to their graves... 

 

Yes, and Mr. Drewe can certainly be expected to honor that commitment.

[terrymct]

They lost the farm because Mrs. Drewe wouldn't accept that she couldn't keep Marigold, and for all intents and purposes kidnapped her (although possibly not in the legal sense).  Her taking Marigold from the farm show without permission was the deciding factor.  Prior to that action, the Drewes were still working Yew Tree Farm with the full support of Mary, at least.  So, yes, the situation sucked, but it was Mrs. Drewe's actions which caused Mr. Drewe and Robert to determine that they had to leave the area.  Had she simply accepted that Marigold was gone - and was living with her biological family, a fact of which Mrs. Drewe was well aware - they'd have been able to stay at the farm for as long as the Crawleys chose to continue to have tenants there.

 

 

All of which was precipitated by Edith wanting to place the child near to herself, then waffling, and finally reversing the decision.  

[Driad]

Good blog about Downton's disappointing docents, and the history and treasures of Highclere Castle:

http://aknextphase.com/downton-abbeys-disappointing-docents/

[AndySmith]

All of which was precipitated by Edith wanting to place the child near to herself, then waffling, and finally reversing the decision.

Hell, Isobel would have done it for free AND kept the secret AND made it possible for Marigold to be in everybody's life from the get go.

 

Isobel would have been a sensible choice, but, no drama that way.

[proserpina65]

All of which was precipitated by Edith wanting to place the child near to herself, then waffling, and finally reversing the decision.  

Yes, but the situation, however unpleasant it was, needn't have ended with the Drewes having to leave if Mrs. Drewe had accepted reality.  I don't put them losing the farm down to Edith, because they could've stayed and simply had little contact with Marigold.  I understand her feelings and don't consider her - or anyone else - to be a villain, but taking Marigold away without permission was not rational.

 

And since we've gotten far off the topic at hand (the current episode), I'm leaving it at that.

[helenamonster]

Dockery seems hell bent on eradicating every last trace of Lady Mary.    Have you seen the trailer for her new TNT series, Good Behavior?

 

There's also Joanne Froggatt, whose first post-Downton role was a serial killer (cue the murdering Bateses jokes). I don't know if it has anything to do with being typecast. They might just want to change things up after playing the same character for six years.

[statsgirl]

I never saw her as obsessed at the beginning. She may have been later on, but I can understand that as she might have formed some sort of attachment to Marigold.

That's what makes it disturbing to me.  The attachment to Marigold was too much and rapidly moving towards unhealthy.  Even knowing that Edith was Marigold's birth mother and that she was in the Downton nursery, Mrs. Drewe still considered the farm Marigold's true home.

 

Yes, education is very important. But not so important that you accept any patronage under any circumstances. When those red flags go up, even poor working people are entitled to act on them and attempt to draw boundaries around their families - and the Drewes aren't so poor as all that. They are respectable working folk. The Drewe children attending the local school would get the same education Daisy has belatedly acquired for herself, sit the same exams - even in the 1920s it was possible for a farmer's child to get an education and better him/herself without selling them to the local gentry.

Daisy's exam will be enough to get her a job as a pastry chef in London but I doubt the village school would get her into a good university and probably not even a position as the editor of Edith's ladies magazine.  No parent who loves their child wants to see them end up in a worse position than she herself is.

 

I'm not saying to accept patronage under any circumstances but Edith coming to visit shouldn't have been that hard to take.

 

And one must remember that Rosamund and Violet pressured Edith to leave the baby to a Swiss couple. That she breastfeeded her baby was probably a "mistake" for it created a bond and she couldn't stand to be part of her child which she couldn't know beforehand. Before she inherited Gregson's magazine and flat, she probably had no means to live in London and his unknown fate depressed her also.

 

The breastfeeding seems to fall under Edith's conflict of wanting the baby and yet feeling unable to keep her.

 

What would have been easiest would have been to have an abortion (I have no doubt Mary would have) but Edith couldn't go through with it, she wanted the baby to be born and alive.  She wanted to breastfeed Marigold even though they could have found a wet nurse or handing the baby over to the couple sooner.  She found she couldn't bear to be separated from her but yet couldn't have Marigold live with her so she though up the Drewe plan.  When Mrs. Drewe refused to let her visit Marigold and Violet and Rosamund were pushing to have her put in a boarding school, Edith finally had the funds and the independence to take the risk and take Marigold herself

 

To bring it to this episode, if Bertie proposed and told Edith he wasn't willing to take Marigold too, it might have been interesting to see what she would have done. Would she have been content to leave Marigold with Cora and Robert, knowing she would be well taken care of, or would she have given up her chance at marriage to keep her child close to her?

  Hell, Isobel would have done it for free AND kept the secret AND made it possible for Marigold to be in everybody's life from the get go. 

I wonder if Isobel would have gone along with it.  She is an older woman herself at this point with a very busy life but it's not as if parents spent a lot of time with their own children in those days much less with other people's.

 

 

Good blog about Downton's disappointing docents, and the history and treasures of Highclere Castle:

http://aknextphase.c...inting-docents/

Interesting.

 

I can understand the family not knowing about the house because to be honest, none of them are that bright or curious.  Cora's brother seems to have inherited the brains in the family and Robert is no Mensa candidate.  The girls seem to know only what they want to know although to be fair, no one seems to ever have encouraged them to learn. Tom is the smartest but I can understand why he didn't want to appear to be studying up on his wife's and later child's inheritance.

Edited February 10, 2016 by statsgirl

[Clanstarling]

Back in the day, simply getting the equivalent of a high school degree (which is what I assume Daisy's taking exams for) was a huge leg up for the lower class, here as well as in Britain, I believe. It qualified people for entry into professions which would have been unreachable without it. University wouldn't necessarily even be a blip on the radar. You could teach with a high school degree in some places (which I believe, is what Mr. Molesly is going to do).

Even so, I hope Daisy has her comeuppance and fails. The character is just that grating - heck, I feel more sympathy for Thomas than Daisy. At least he's self-aware.

[Artymouse]

As Mary mentioned in an earlier episode this season, the only things they learned from their governess were "French, prejudice and dance steps." Though I find it hard to believe that some grounding in art appreciation wouldn't also be part of it.

They did all come across as a little clueless, everyone except Tom and Bertie, as when Edith lamented that people wanting to visit Downton made it feel like their life was viewed as "strange." Because of course it was, it always was. I'm assuming that unless you were an aristocrat or a servant, you rarely if ever got a peek inside a place like that. And it's hard to imagine that no one in the family understood that, or understood why it would be of interest.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Artymouse

[WatchrTina]

 

So I have to wonder, if Edith doesn't have her own maid, who is doing her hair?

I just re-watched season 3 and when Mary returns following her honeymoon and Anna is promoted to "proper lady's maid" someone new took over responsibility for dressing Edith.  There's a line about it when Edith comes into Mary's room at one point -- Mary asks her how the new maid is working out.  I assumed that whoever was promoted to head housemaid after Anna was promoted to lady's maid also had to take over helping Edith dress and do her hair.

 

But someone else asked if Edith has staff for her London apartment and I presume the answer is no.  I'm guessing she takes all her meals out when she is in London and takes all her laundry home to Downton.  As for cleaning -- well I've read a lot of novels by Anthony Trollope (earlier period but same class of people) and when upper class men "took rooms" in London their needs were seen to by the landlady (cleaning, laundry, etc.) while all their meals were taken at a club.  I assume something similar was possible for upscale ladies who could afford to own a London apartment in the 1920s -- some kind of service you can call in to clean periodically.  Nature abhors a vacuum.  Where there is a need, a solution will present itself.  Or perhaps Rosamund sends over one of her staff periodically to dust and change sheets after Edith visits.  She's still getting baskets of food from Downton, so pitching in for the upkeep of Edith's place seems plausible in that family dynamic.

[Calvada]

I must preface this by saying I abhor family violence of any type, but I would leap off my sofa cheering if Mr. Mason said to Daisy, "As your surrogate father, I feel I must do this," and then administered a sound spanking.  Daisy has been transformed into a thoroughly unlikeable character in this final season. 

 

I can't believe that Mary didn't know anything about the paintings and so on.  She strikes me as the kind of person who would know the entire inventory of the house, and the value of each item, from the paintings to the teaspoons. I think she would consider it her duty as the mother of the heir. 

 

 

 

[AndySmith]

Why would she, when the current Earl and his wife are just as clueless?

[mightycrone]

I must preface this by saying I abhor family violence of any type, but I would leap off my sofa cheering if Mr. Mason said to Daisy, "As your surrogate father, I feel I must do this," and then administered a sound spanking.  Daisy has been transformed into a thoroughly unlikeable character in this final season. 

 

 

My punishment for her would be for her to have to work at the Dowager's, under the direct supervision of Denker and Spratt.  

Edited February 11, 2016 by mightycrone

[mightycrone]

 

Come to think of it, I believe I wanted the match due to the sad ending in Remains of the Day.  In that, one of my favorite movies, Emma Thompson plays a housekeeper in the 1920's -30's   who is in love  with  the butler, played by Anthony Hopkins.  He is even more stuffy and critical than Carson, but  too repressed to allow  himself to realize his love for Emma until the end of the film, when it's too late. 

 

So I shipped it, but I can't excuse Carson's behavior because he's a traditionalist.  It has never, ever been proper etiquette to find fault with a meal someone has prepared for you.  Adam probably complained about Eve serving him the same thing every day and look how that went down.

 

What a great movie, and yes, it was it my mind, too.  I had so hoped that Carson would avoid this fate, and allow himself to be more fully humanized by our Elsie.  At this point, though, I'm a bit shy of "cautiously optimistic."    

[Roseanna]

Back in the day, simply getting the equivalent of a high school degree (which is what I assume Daisy's taking exams for) was a huge leg up for the lower class, here as well as in Britain, I believe. It qualified people for entry into professions which would have been unreachable without it. University wouldn't necessarily even be a blip on the radar. You could teach with a high school degree in some places (which I believe, is what Mr. Molesly is going to do

 

It was an ordinary village school, so how could it be a high school? Jane's son went to a "better" school.

[Llywela]

It was an ordinary village school, so how could it be a high school? Jane's son went to a "better" school.

An ordinary village school would have taught pupils through high school age (up to probably around age 14-16, depending on their family circumstances), and they'd have taken their school certificate there. However, there was an 11+ examination sat by all children, and under the Education Act of 1907 all grant-aided secondary schools (i.e. grammar schools) were required to provide at least 25 percent of their places as free scholarships for students from public elementary schools (which would include the village schools) - this was a way of making a higher standard of education available to children from poorer homes, as grammar schools had a more academic focus. My grandmother was born in 1918, the 10th of 12 children in a dirt poor family (her father was a lowly labourer), but she did well in her 11+ examination and won a place at the local grammar school - despite the scholarship, it was still not easy for her parents to send her, as there were extras to pay for (books, uniform, etc), but they managed it. The better school Jane's son went to would have been a grammar school, I'd imagine.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Llywela

[dangwoodchucks]

I must preface this by saying I abhor family violence of any type, but I would leap off my sofa cheering if Mr. Mason said to Daisy, "As your surrogate father, I feel I must do this," and then administered a sound spanking.  Daisy has been transformed into a thoroughly unlikeable character in this final season. 

 

I can't believe that Mary didn't know anything about the paintings and so on.  She strikes me as the kind of person who would know the entire inventory of the house, and the value of each item, from the paintings to the teaspoons. I think she would consider it her duty as the mother of the heir. 

What if Daisy is secretly in love with Mr Mason?

[AndySmith]

Millions of people would fly/drive/take the train/cycle/walk to meet JF in person and punch him in the face, I'm guessing, because, no. Just no.

Edited February 11, 2016 by AndySmith

[JudyObscure]

Daisy couldn't be in love with Mr. Mason, because we know, in her usual boneheaded fashion, she likes the pretty boys who are way out of her league.

I assume something similar was possible for upscale ladies who could afford to own a London apartment in the 1920s -- some kind of service you can call in to clean periodically. Nature abhors a vacuum.

...and so do upscale ladies, it seems. I don't know if the pun was intended but I loved it.

[Milburn Stone]

I can't believe that Mary didn't know anything about the paintings and so on.  She strikes me as the kind of person who would know the entire inventory of the house...

 

This whole sequence struck me as amusingly, universally human rather than unbelievable. I took it to be saying: "We all, as humans, take for granted the trappings we are born into, or have lived amongst for years. Even though we should appreciate them fully every day (whether we're rich or poor), we think about them no more than we think about the air we breathe. You might think it shouldn't be true for the rich, who live amongst treasures, but it's as true for the rich as it is for anyone."

Edited February 11, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Clanstarling]

It was an ordinary village school, so how could it be a high school? Jane's son went to a "better" school.

Because the chatter was about her going to a university, I assumed a higher level school certificate.

An ordinary village school would have taught pupils through high school age (up to probably around age 14-16, depending on their family circumstances), and they'd have taken their school certificate there. However, there was an 11+ examination sat by all children, and under the Education Act of 1907 all grant-aided secondary schools (i.e. grammar schools) were required to provide at least 25 percent of their places as free scholarships for students from public elementary schools (which would include the village schools) - this was a way of making a higher standard of education available to children from poorer homes, as grammar schools had a more academic focus. My grandmother was born in 1918, the 10th of 12 children in a dirt poor family (her father was a lowly labourer), but she did well in her 11+ examination and won a place at the local grammar school - despite the scholarship, it was still not easy for her parents to send her, as there were extras to pay for (books, uniform, etc), but they managed it. The better school Jane's son went to would have been a grammar school, I'd imagine.

Thank you. I didn't know the details of the British system, this is very informative.

[Roseanna]

This whole sequence struck me as amusingly, universally human rather than unbelievable. I took it to be saying: "We all, as humans, take for granted the trappings we are born into, or have lived amongst for years. Even though we should appreciate them fully every day (whether we're rich or poor), we think about them no more than we think about the air we breathe. You might think it shouldn't be true for the rich, who live amongst treasures, but it's as true for the rich as it is for anyone."

 

Actually I did know quite well about the furniture, paintings, china and glassware in my parents' house, where they were bought and if they were design whose.

 

And when I have visited local manors, the owners could have naturally told all about the history of their family and their house.  

[Milburn Stone]

Actually I did know quite well about the furniture, paintings, china and glassware in my parents' house, where they were bought and if they were design whose.

 

And when I have visited local manors, the owners could have naturally told all about the history of their family and their house.  

 

I congratulate you for being the exception.

[SusanSunflower]

I haven't seen pop reference recently wrt the difference between what the British study as "British History" and what Americans study in "American history" -- but I do recall that school children are supposed to demonstrate some fluency in the royal lineage and various wars and invasions going back to prehistory, Stonehenge, the various barbarian (generic) invasions. http://www.britannia.com/history/timelines.html..while American students start with 1492 and then skip rapidly to Plymouth Rock with a brief detour to Jamestown and maybe Nova Scotia (Norse) ... before plunging into the revolution ... the "other colonizers" (France, Russia, Spain, all sort of vague also-ran footnotes) 

 

For aristocrats, tracing one's lineage (and right to title) can go back only a few generations or can span multiple centuries ... as we see in historical dramas like Wolf Hall.... yes, some aristocrats are "more worthy" than others.  I assume Mary's aside about their governess was an witticism and that Cora (at least) understood that the girls needed a reasonable educational grounding in order to rise above her own history as a new world "bucconeer" type. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[AndySmith]

The whole Carwley's-being-ignorant-of-their-history plot could be that back then, most families of that class didn't know or care but probably did start to once the aristocracy became less prominent in the social order of things a few decades down the road. Or maybe the Crawleys are just idiots. Or maybe JF traded accuracy for "comedy". Pick whichever helps you sleep better at night.