S06.E06: Season 6, Episode 6

[Crs97]

Frankly, she doesn't have to say anything about Marigold. Edith outed Mary to the Turkish ambassador! I would think Bertie would shut up after that story.

This is why I want their fight to be private and end with both owning their roles in this toxic relationship. I will be seriously annoyed if Mary is treated as the only villain.

[ZoloftBlob]

Frankly, she doesn't have to say anything about Marigold. Edith outed Mary to the Turkish ambassador! I would think Bertie would shut up after that story.

 

How does Mary pointing out to Bertie that she's hateful to Edith because Edith told the Turkish ambassador that Mary, an unmarried woman, slept with Kemal Pamuk in any way make Edith look bad to Bertie? I mean sure Edith could have destroyed the family with that bitch move but when it comes to Mary screwing over Edith's chances with Bertie because she's put out by Bertie calling her rude.... Doesn't it make more sense to go to "My sister's ward is really her illegitimate baby with the married man she had an affair with!" rather than "Edith told the Turkish Ambassador about my having sex out of wedlock!"?

 

I mean, I get your point, she's not *locked in* to revealing the illegitimate child but really, why would she raise the spector of Kemal again when she doesn't have to? She would look as bad as Edith, if not worse.

 

I agree and I hope that the confrontation if it happens, is private.

[RedWolf]

This is why I want their fight to be private and end with both owning their roles in this toxic relationship. I will be seriously annoyed if Mary is treated as the only villain.

This^^^ is what I want to happen.

 

BiB - I will be as well. 

[saki]

The Turkish embassy stuff didn't start this - Mary was awful to Edith all along, that's why Edith did it, she didn't write that letter from nowhere. I also don't think that's what is in Mary's mind when she makes these comments anyway, it's just habit for her to be mean.

[ElizaD]

I wonder if the series ends with Mary and Tom in charge of Downton (occasionally open to the public) and Robert and Cora living in a smaller house somewhere. That little boy felt like obvious foreshadowing.

 

The Turkish embassy stuff didn't start this - Mary was awful to Edith all along, that's why Edith did it, she didn't write that letter from nowhere. I also don't think that's what is in Mary's mind when she makes these comments anyway, it's just habit for her to be mean.

 

Edith spent season 1 starting fights. In their scenes together she was constantly the one who sought out Mary for the specific purpose of making a nasty comment and then looked hurt when Mary struck back with something wittier. That's how the letter came about: she snarked about Mary's apparent failure to interest Matthew, Mary responsed by insulting her clothes, and Edith retaliated on an entirely different level. If Edith is treated as the victim, that will extremely annoying. She already got away with making a deliberate, calculated effort to destroy Mary's reputation not with just one man but with their society in general, and her utter lack of empathy or shame over how the Drewes ended up paying for their kindness to her daughter shows how selfish she can be; Mary had her moment of realization when she acknowledged she wasn't good like Sybil, Edith just sees herself as the victim. If Mary ends up figuring out the truth about Marigold, I doubt she'll reveal it to Bertie with the same kind of intentional spite and slutshaming that Edith showed towards her.

[Ravenya003]

Bit late to the party, but here are my thoughts:

 

I think this being the final season and having the finish line in sight has really invigorated Fellowes's writing. Sure there are a few plot-threads I don't care about, but I honestly don't think I've enjoyed the show this much since season one. The Crawleys showing off their house without having the faintest idea of what was in it, Lord Grantham having a little conversation with a runaway village boy, Bertie side-eyeing Mary and saying "God bless you" to Marigold, Maggie Smith getting the chance to actually act instead of making arch comments - all gold.

 

I'm in such a weird place when it comes to all this Mary/Tom/Matthew Goode stuff. I mean, I'm happy to go along with Mary/Matthew Goode as endgame, as I do find it reasonably charming (though mostly because of Matthew Goode - heck, I don't even know what the character is called, he's just Matthew Goode to me) and I DON'T ship Mary/Tom at all, especially as someone who appreciates platonic male/female friendships...

 

And yet Mary/Tom are just the perfect fit for each other at this stage. They tease each other, they communicate without speaking, they make each other laugh - my God, they act more married than either of them did with Sybil or Matthew. What is happening here?? 

 

TV Tropes would call this a Relationship Writing Fumble, and it's hilarious to behold. 

 

Mary has pretty much figured out what's going on with Marigold, but I hope she'll rise to the occasion and take it graciously. Obviously she's going to be more upset that her family kept it a secret from her than the fact Edith had a child out of wedlock, but I hope it'll result in introspection rather than outrage. After all, what does it say about her that everyone thought it would be best she didn't know? (And I say that as someone who enjoys Mary). 

 

Having read an interesting article earlier this week about how wives provide unpaid emotional labour (as well as unpaid labour period) to their husbands, Carson has become my new poster-child for explaining to my parents why I'm happily single. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Ravenya003

[RedWolf]

And yet Mary/Tom are just the perfect fit for each other at this stage. They tease each other, they communicate without speaking, they make each other laugh - my God, they act more married than either of them did with Sybil or Matthew. What is happening here??

This^^^^ So much this.

 

If Julian Fellowes had kept their dynamic as it was early on in series 5 where they are only in a couple scenes together every episode and really pushed the Mary/Talbot relationship my "Brary" heart would have stayed resigned to the fact that Talbot is/was endgame and Mary and Tom only have/had a platonic relationship. But he didn't. Mary and Tom are practically joined at the hip. Tom asks Mary about her love life every episode (which is kind of weird to me because my own brother doesn't ask as often about my love life as Tom has about Mary's and we are pretty close), and Mary has taken him to every "date" with Talbot (except for that first one) when she has never done that before. Either Julian Fellowes is doing the unthinkable (and my biggest dream) and actually working towards a Brary endgame or this is the biggest writing fumble ever.

[Crs97]

 

How does Mary pointing out to Bertie that she's hateful to Edith because Edith told the Turkish ambassador that Mary, an unmarried woman, slept with Kemal Pamuk in any way make Edith look bad to Bertie? I mean sure Edith could have destroyed the family with that bitch move but when it comes to Mary screwing over Edith's chances with Bertie because she's put out by Bertie calling her rude.... Doesn't it make more sense to go to "My sister's ward is really her illegitimate baby with the married man she had an affair with!" rather than "Edith told the Turkish Ambassador about my having sex out of wedlock!"?

Taking this to the speculation thread.

[hafo]

And yet Mary/Tom are just the perfect fit for each other at this stage. They tease each other, they communicate without speaking, they make each other laugh - my God, they act more married than either of them did with Sybil or Matthew. What is happening here?? 

 

TV Tropes would call this a Relationship Writing Fumble, and it's hilarious to behold.

 

This is it exactly.

 

Tom and Mary could call each other ‘brother’ and ‘sister’ forevermore. But they aren’t siblings. It is a convenient excuse to use Tom as Mary’s platonic pseudo-husband. Mary invites Tom on all of her dates? That’s completely normal sibling behaviour! Tom gives up all of his long-yearned-for personal endeavours in order to go on Mary’s dates? No one will suspect a thing! They’re siblings!

 

Either being with Mary is the most important thing to Tom (after his daughter) or he’s nothing more than an accessory Fellowes is attaching to Mary to humanize her.

Edited October 30, 2015 by hafo

[Tetraneutron]

It's the second one. 

 

Tom fulfills a narrative need, which is why he survives despite never having his own stories independent of the other characters. The heroine (that would be Mary) needs a confidant so the audience knows how she feels. 

[HausfrauoftheDE]

Can someone please explain the Larry's fiancé back story. I can't remember.

[Llywela]

Can someone please explain the Larry's fiancé back story. I can't remember.

I don't think we've met the fiancee before. But Larry and his brother are the reason Isobel didn't marry Lord Merton. They were appallingly rude to her, in public, and without remorse. They made it clear that they did not consider her good enough for their father. Isobel decided that she preferred to remain single rather than marry into what would always be an acrimonious family situation.

 

Larry is also the dude who drugged Tom to show him up when he first came back to Downton with Sybil after their marriage.

[oceanblue]

We don't know what the fiancee's plan is; hopefully it's just kindness toward her future father in law.  She seems too nice to marry Larry.

[nora1992]

It seems ironic that Mary is the one to defend Thomas's job, when it was Thomas who started spreading the word about Pamuk long before Edith even knew about it.  Remember the letter Mr. Carson got in season 1 from one of the staff in Susan Flintshire's house?  Carson didn't believe it then, but he did bring it up to Cora.  Edith's letter to the Turkish ambassador was confirmation of the rumors, but she didn't start them.  And Thomas was the one who showed Pamuk the way to Mary's bedroom in the first place.  Thomas's actions concerning Mary make Edith's letter seem "small beer" BUT this is overshadowed by new evil machinations in season after season.  Edith did one thing five seasons ago, and she must pay for it for the rest of her life (to some posters).

 

But the sniping didn't start with Edith this episode: she tried to join the conversation in a neutral way ("I used to go to the Criterion with Michael") but was met with Mary's snideness (enough with your gloom already!, or words to that effect).  Putting Edith down makes Mary feel better about herself. 

 

And while I'm on the subject of Mary, she has no reason to be upset that others in the family knew about Marigold before she did.  After all, she knew well before Bates did that Anna was pregnant, and she even told Tom.  If she can know about the baby's existence BEFORE THE FATHER, she has no right to complain about being kept in the dark about Marigold.

[Avaleigh]

It seems ironic that Mary is the one to defend Thomas's job, when it was Thomas who started spreading the word about Pamuk long before Edith even knew about it.  Remember the letter Mr. Carson got in season 1 from one of the staff in Susan Flintshire's house?  Carson didn't believe it then, but he did bring it up to Cora.  Edith's letter to the Turkish ambassador was confirmation of the rumors, but she didn't start them.  And Thomas was the one who showed Pamuk the way to Mary's bedroom in the first place.  Thomas's actions concerning Mary make Edith's letter seem "small beer" BUT this is overshadowed by new evil machinations in season after season.  Edith did one thing five seasons ago, and she must pay for it for the rest of her life (to some posters).

 

But the sniping didn't start with Edith this episode: she tried to join the conversation in a neutral way ("I used to go to the Criterion with Michael") but was met with Mary's snideness (enough with your gloom already!, or words to that effect).  Putting Edith down makes Mary feel better about herself. 

I agree that Thomas is lucky that Mary and the family don't know the half of it when it comes to him. One of many reasons I don't think he's been given some wildly unfair ordeal at the hands of life. He so rarely has it in him to treat others the way that he'd want to be treated.

 

I think those lines perfectly describe the constant misunderstanding between Mary and Edith. Mary thinks that Edith is trying to make the moment all about her in the sad way that she can sometimes do when Edith is really only making conversation and reminiscing about something happy. Then there's the fact that Mary thinks it's weird that Edith is still thinking about the dead boyfriend because she doesn't know about the depth of the relationship. (Edith went out of her way to keep it a secret and has forced her family members to do the same.) I also thought that Mary's question to Edith about whether or not she can manage without them was to give Edith a chance to speak up just in case she needed one of them for anything. To me, Mary's eye roll made it seem like she wasn't trying to start a fight and was bored with Edith for being snide as usual. I thought Tom noticed it too.

 

Edith claims that she's only treating Mary the way that Mary would treat her but I don't think that's true. When each sister had their chance to congratulate the other on her wedding day it was Mary who was the most gracious and genuine. Even though Edith at that point had every reason to think that she would marry Anthony Strallan she still couldn't find it in herself to not prick at Mary on her special day. When it was Edith's turn marry, Mary was able to genuinely wish her well. Not that the wedding ended up happening of course but when it came down to it, Mary was happy for her sister. Edith definitely seemed less pleased for her sister but I guess the argument is that she had a right to be even though I disagree. I see the sisters as being very even in the way they treat each other and I think Tom does too. He's definitely noticed the snark coming from both sisters. I definitely Tom is like Sybil now as far as the comment Mary made when Sybil died about how Sybil was the only one who thought that Mary and Edith are nice people. Even though I think Mary was exaggerating when she said that, I do see what she means and think that Tom loves them both. (Although I do think he seems to prefer chatting and hanging out with Mary in general.)

[Andorra]

I agree. I thought the comment "is he worth it?" was also meant as a serious question, but of course, due to their history, they're both unable to take comments the way they're meant. That's why Edith reacts snarky and in the next scene Mary reacts with a snide comment to the "Criterion" comment even though Edith was just making an observation. It's like snowball reaction for both of them.

 

I do think Tom loves both sisters, but - just as Sybil - he feels closer to Mary. I think it might be, because Mary and Sybil resemble each other much more. They're both very confident and secure while Edith is just the opposite. 

[JustSaying16016]

My first post here! This board is way more calm and respectful than other boards, which is appreciated. For the most part, I agree with the comments above. However, I always think back to Season 1 when Edith hears the conversation between Cora and Mary about her "lack of advantages." So, while I like Mary, I do root for Edith. However, they are both in their 30s and need to move beyond. But, I digress.

My real reason for posting is to comment on the development of Henry and Bertie, respectively. Again, I am echoing other comments but I surprised how much Bertie has developed and how little Henry has. Admittedly not a Brary fan (had such high hopes for Tom's character), is JF is going to have Mary end up not married or are we going to find out that Henry was just after her money after they are already married? In last year's CS, I liked Henry and thought Bertie was dull. I like Edith and Bertie together a lot and find Mary and Henry so very dull. So is JF that bad of a writer -- (again, I point to Tom Branson and many other plots...LOL) or does he have something up his sleeve that we are missing?

[Roseanna]

One thing I really liked about this episode was how much Michelle Dockery channeled Maggie Smith in that last scene where she told the rest of the family that they are all weaklings - she gave a great impression of how the Dowager must have come across in her prime.

I don't think the others Crawleys were at all weaklings to recognize that the world would change and their way of life would be likely to disappear - on the contrary they were realists.

Instead, it was Mary on her haughtiest, supposing that she is entitled to have a better life than the rest of people, simply because of the accident of her birth. Never has she given even a thought to the common good (vs. Blake).

Of course Mary can't know what we know: that during 20thcutury millions of people were driven of their home and even from their country (although she does know that it happened to Prince Kuragin). But still her prideful sureness that it can't happen to her and George makes me shudder.

[Roseanna]

Edith claims that she's only treating Mary the way that Mary would treat her but I don't think that's true. When each sister had their chance to congratulate the other on her wedding day it was Mary who was the most gracious and genuine. Even though Edith at that point had every reason to think that she would marry Anthony Strallan she still couldn't find it in herself to not prick at Mary on her special day. When it was Edith's turn marry, Mary was able to genuinely wish her well.

Actually Edith and Mary's situation in the other's wedding day was completely different.

On Mary's wedding day Edith had no surety that she would ever get married all and, although she had again begun to pursue Strallan, she was likely to remain a spinster. So she has a real reason to envy Mary. Her remark that she got "all" wasn't nice, but I doubt it really hurt Mary at all for the content was true in a happy way. Edith sort of admitted that Mary had won and she had lost - which was just how Mary has wanted to see their relationship all along.

On Edith's wedding day with Strallan Mary was happily married with Matthew, a handsome young man who was also the heir of the title and the estate, so she had no reason to feel envy towards Edith who was marrying a middle-aged man with a handicap, on the contrary Mary had a reason to pity her sister for accepting only a consolation prize and feel that she would ever be the loser. When Mary wished Edith happiness, it sounded nice and Edith seems to took it at that way. But considering that Violet and Robert thought that Edith could do better, was there a double meaning of Mary 's words that she wished her happiness "on this day at least"? Not only that she couldn't wish her sister happiness any other day, but that she anticipated that Edith could be happy only on her wedding day when she was the center of attention in the only time in her life?

Maybe that is guessing too much, but the fact is that when Mary wished Edith well, it didn't cost her anything.

Mary can be given a credit she really deserves for the genuine concern for Edith when she and Sybil came to her room to comfort her although Edith didn't want it which was understandable.

[Roseanna]

I think those lines perfectly describe the constant misunderstanding between Mary and Edith. Mary thinks that Edith is trying to make the moment all about her in the sad way that she can sometimes do when Edith is really only making conversation and reminiscing about something happy. Then there's the fact that Mary thinks it's weird that Edith is still thinking about the dead boyfriend because she doesn't know about the depth of the relationship. (Edith went out of her way to keep it a secret and has forced her family members to do the same.) I also thought that Mary's question to Edith about whether or not she can manage without them was to give Edith a chance to speak up just in case she needed one of them for anything. To me, Mary's eye roll made it seem like she wasn't trying to start a fight and was bored with Edith for being snide as usual. I thought Tom noticed it too.

You make a good case for Mary, but I think you forget some aspects.

Mary's remark how Edith makes anything gloomy sounded like she felt that Edith tried to spoil her sister's fun with her sad memories about the place Mary was going to, could have had a meaning only if Edith succeeded doing it. But as Mary wouldn't give a fig of Edith's sad memories, her fun wouldn't be spoiled by it. So the remark was pointless - unless as an intentional cruelty. However, Edith wasn't provoked by it but explained calmly that she had in fact a very happy memory. She even sent her regards to Evelyn Napier.

As for Mary not knowing the depth of Edith's relationship with Michael Gregson, Edith told after his death was confirmed that she loved him. Anybody but Mary would have said even a person she wouldn't know well that she was was sorry to cause distress in a such time, but to Mary Edith "spoiled everything".

Mary invited Tom along with her when Edith was present which anybody would regard at least lack of common courtesy if not a deliberate insult in the way children use. When she after that asked if Edith could manage without them a day, it was either stupid or deliberately meant to provoke. But instead of acting like she did in S1, i.e. looking hurt, Edith had the last word. That the balance in the sister's relationship is changed is seen also in other conversations after Edith succeeded with her magazine and met Bertie. Mary can't stand that Edith has self-confidence and is no more second to her.

As for Tom, he should really have reproached Mary, as he indeed did in S5.

[Andorra]

So is JF that bad of a writer -- (again, I point to Tom Branson and many other plots...LOL) or does he have something up his sleeve that we are missing?

 

Yes, unfortunately he is just that bad a writer. Nothing else can be said. The Henry/Mary storyline is the worst written storyline in the history of TV romances. 

[saki]

I do think Tom loves both sisters, but - just as Sybil - he feels closer to Mary. I think it might be, because Mary and Sybil resemble each other much more. They're both very confident and secure while Edith is just the opposite. 

 

I don't agree with this.  I think Mary and Sybil do have those similarities.  But Sybil and Edith also share a lot of qualities too - they were both always more interested in life outside Downton, both have much more progressive politics, both actually did something in the war effort (nursing and driving a tractor being a lot more similar than moping and singing one song)...

 

I also don't see any particular evidence for Mary and Sybil having been closer.

[Andorra]

I don't agree with this.  I think Mary and Sybil do have those similarities.  But Sybil and Edith also share a lot of qualities too - they were both always more interested in life outside Downton, both have much more progressive politics, both actually did something in the war effort (nursing and driving a tractor being a lot more similar than moping and singing one song)...

 

I also don't see any particular evidence for Mary and Sybil having been closer.

 

Sybil and Mary call each other Darling on more than one occasion. I've never heard Edith and Sybil call each other that. Sybil also has much more intimate conversations with Mary than with Edith. It is Mary she confides in, that Tom asked her to run away with him. It is Mary who persuades her to go back when she elopes with him. It is again Mary who she talks to about her marriage in season 3, she also talks about wanting the child to be christened catholic with Mary. 

 

The only "deeper" conversation between Sybil and Edith, that we see, is in season 2, when Sybil tells her she is much nicer than before the war. To me that is telling. So she wasn't that nice before the war? Also we see Edith mocking Sybil's political interests in season 1 and we also see her mocking Sybil gaining weight in season 1. They don't seem to have a bad relationship, but not a particularly good one either. 

 

About Edith and Sybil having similar interests: IMO Edith is the most traditional of the girls by nature. She would have been perfectly happy in a good marriage and with a good husband (she didn't even seem very picky. It always seemed she could fall in love with every single guy who paid a little attention to her). That she is forced by circumstances to find interests outside her own expectations is not the same as Sybil's curiosity and Sybil's thrive to change the world and her own life to get away from her family's expectations. 

 

And about Tom being closer to Mary: When he wants to christen his daughter, she asked him whether he didn't want to tell them and he said "you and Matthew". 

[sark1624]

Maybe Edith and Sybil were not close it was ovbious that, but that was in season 1-3, in that time Mary had changed a little. But i think if Sybil would had lived she would not be so pleased with Mary "evolution" after season 4. Even if Sybil and Edith werent close, they share similar interests and Sybil would have been very pleased, for example Edith became more interested in modern causes like the woman issues, becoming a trustee for a woman college, knowing how to drive (sort of statement in that period), having a life outside of Downton and that way of life, she fought for her daughter and she was in a relation with a man who wasnt suitable for a woman of her class. In the other hand i dont think that Sybil would have been very pleased with Mary toying with the suitors, her snobbery, the treatment of Gwen, and the treatment of Edith (especially the treatment when Edith knew about Gregson´s death) and her daughter later on. But knowing Sybil´s personality she would have been sympathetic towards both of them

[Andorra]

That is mere speculation though and not what we saw on screen. What we saw on screen was also, that Tom was closer to Mary than to Edith. He spent much more time with her, he had much more intimate conversations with her. They were always chatting to each other in the background, sitting next to each other etc. Mary was the one the most unhappy for him moving to Boston. She was the one he was writing to. We don't see Edith getting a letter from him. Mary was the one who was most delighted to have him back. They shared secrets, gave each other advice, teased each other and worked together. Mary is the one taking him with her for a fun evening in London. 

He likes Edith and he gets along well with her, but he is closer to Mary.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Andorra

[sark1624]

in any part i said that he was more close or should be more close, either i said that Sybil would be more close to her; i tried to said that if Sybil would have lived she would have been very sympathetic to Edith story and not so pleased to Mary´s actions in the past seasons, thats all. We all knew that Tom loves both sisters as her brother but he is more closer to Mary. 

[saki]

It's true that Sybil was much more of a rebel than Edith but Mary is overwhelmingly the most traditional of all three, which is a massive difference between her and Mary. Mary's obsession with the estate and nice dinners and traditions is all completely alien to Sybil. Edith is kind of in the middle there.

I just wanted to make clear that your assertion about Mary and Sybil's affinity and Edith not being at all like Sybil is not shared by all

Edited February 6, 2016 by saki

[Andorra]

I didn't say that Edith is "not at all" like Sybil. They're related, aren't they? But in personality they're very different. Sybil was optimistic, curious and very self assured. She had not an insecure bone in her and she wanted to try new things, leave the old traditions behind and live a life on her terms.

 

Edith wanted just the opposite. She would have been perfectly happy with the life that was drawn out for her by tradition. She would have loved to marry some rich Aristocrat and live the typical life of a Lady. It was not her inclination that changed life for her,it was by force of circumstances. THAT is the big difference and I don't know why people have such a problem to admit to it? And personality wise they are extremely different. Edith has always been insecure and pessimistic. First episode of this season? Edith is moaning "do I have a life now?" She has inherited a newspaper, she brought her daughter home even though it seemed impossible, but she is still negative. It's night and day between Sybil and Edith. 

 

Mary wants power. She is a traditionalist, too, but more ambitious than Edith. She wanted to be a number in society and to be the queen of her own domain. In her class for a woman it was only possible to become a woman of influence by marrying a man of influence so that was what she wanted to do. She's again different to Edith, who just wanted to be happy and content.

 

Of course Sybil would have been sympathetic to Edith, because she was a lovely person. She would also have been sympathetic to Mary and she would have understood where Mary came from (just like Tom does, who took over Sybil's role in the family anyway). Remember when Mary was such a bitch after Patrick died? Sybil was the one feeling that there was more to her behavior. So even though she would have been supportive of Edith, she would still have been supportive of Mary, too. When we look at Tom, we see exactly what Sybil would have done,, because he's taken over for her. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by Andorra

[Kohola3]

Well, since Sybil would probably have been married and living somewhere other than Downton with her child (or more likely children) I doubt she would have been in a position to know the behavior of her sisters let alone support one or both.  I can't see the Bransons hanging round Downton for the long run.  If Sybil hadn't died, I think most likely they would have gone to the US where Tom had relatives.

[Roseanna]

I didn't say that Edith is "not at all" like Sybil. They're related, aren't they? But in personality they're very different. Sybil was optimistic, curious and very self assured. She had not an insecure bone in her and she wanted to try new things, leave the old traditions behind and live a life on her terms.

 

Edith wanted just the opposite. She would have been perfectly happy with the life that was drawn out for her by tradition. She would have loved to marry some rich Aristocrat and live the typical life of a Lady. It was not her inclination that changed life for her,it was by force of circumstances. THAT is the big difference and I don't know why people have such a problem to admit to it? And personality wise they are extremely different. Edith has always been insecure and pessimistic. First episode of this season? Edith is moaning "do I have a life now?" She has inherited a newspaper, she brought her daughter home even though it seemed impossible, but she is still negative. It's night and day between Sybil and Edith. 

 

I am not saying there isn't some truth in your description, but you forget the crux of the matter: one's personality isn't born in a vacuum, but it's influenced on one's experiences. If Sybil were treated like Edith, would she become secure and positive?

 

In addition, Sybil experienced no real misfortunes in her whole  life. We can't know how she would have endured if f.ex. Tom had been killed in Ireland and she had to cope there alone and pregnant.  

 

As for Edith, I look always at a person's deeds rather than her words. Edith has experienced in her life more misfortunes than Mary but she had never lost her ability to act, unlike Mary after Matthew's death. 

[KLovestoShop]

Also don't forget what Mary did to Edith during the picnic when she told Sir Anthony that her sister Edith was trying hard to hide from this old man who was pursuing her.  This was even before the war and Sir Anthony's disability came about.  I believe that Mary was trying to prove that she could get any man and that Edith couldn't. So, knowing this, I wouldn't put it past Mary to pull any kind of crap to keep Bertie out of Edith's life.  

 

Is it just me, or do others here find this season's writing boring?  It just seems to me like the writers are just doing things to tie everything up in a nice, neat package for the end of the show.  You have Carson marrying, Mrs Patmore buying a cottage and perhaps running a B&B, Thomas preparing to become a head butler somewhere, Daisy looks to be taking over for her father-in-law, Mary will probably wed someone and Edith will have her magazine.  But in doing all this, it's making the show very boring.  

[Andorra]

I am not saying there isn't some truth in your description, but you forget the crux of the matter: one's personality isn't born in a vacuum, but it's influenced on one's experiences. If Sybil were treated like Edith, would she become secure and positive?

 

In addition, Sybil experienced no real misfortunes in her whole  life. We can't know how she would have endured if f.ex. Tom had been killed in Ireland and she had to cope there alone and pregnant.  

 

I didn't judge, I just analyzed their personalities. No matter how it got formed, it is as it is. The reason is not important. The result is different personalities. 

[Roseanna]

That is mere speculation though and not what we saw on screen. What we saw on screen was also, that Tom was closer to Mary than to Edith. He spent much more time with her, he had much more intimate conversations with her. They were always chatting to each other in the background, sitting next to each other etc. Mary was the one the most unhappy for him moving to Boston. She was the one he was writing to. We don't see Edith getting a letter from him. Mary was the one who was most delighted to have him back. They shared secrets, gave each other advice, teased each other and worked together. Mary is the one taking him with her for a fun evening in London. 

He likes Edith and he gets along well with her, but he is closer to Mary.

 

I agree that Tom is closer to Mary. I only wonder how much this is do with Fellowes's idea that DA is before all Mary's story and his habit from the beginning to give her so confidantes (Carson, Anna and now Tom) which in turn make the audience to feel more sympathy towards her sorrows whereas Edith must carry them often alone.  

 

"Mary was the one the most unhappy for him moving to Boston" - well, she spoke more of it, but just that showed her childish selfishness (don't leave for I will become unhappy  - never mind what would be best for Tom). It was only when Tom become back that she admitted his right to leave and create his own life.    

[skyways]

Is it just me, or do others here find this season's writing boring?  It just seems to me like the writers are just doing things to tie everything up in a nice, neat package for the end of the show.  You have Carson marrying, Mrs Patmore buying a cottage and perhaps running a B&B, Thomas preparing to become a head butler somewhere, Daisy looks to be taking over for her father-in-law, Mary will probably wed someone and Edith will have her magazine.  But in doing all this, it's making the show very boring.

Many expected this and just want to see a nice, simple, uncomplicated ending. That said, it's not just you.

[Roseanna]

Of course Sybil would have been sympathetic to Edith, because she was a lovely person. She would also have been sympathetic to Mary and she would have understood where Mary came from (just like Tom does, who took over Sybil's role in the family anyway). Remember when Mary was such a bitch after Patrick died? Sybil was the one feeling that there was more to her behavior. So even though she would have been supportive of Edith, she would still have been supportive of Mary, too. When we look at Tom, we see exactly what Sybil would have done,, because he's taken over for her. 

 

If being "a lovely person" means tolerating the other's meanness, that kind of person could rather be called indiffent.

 

On the other hand, maybe that kind of indifference is healthy in a young person like Sybil was, because otherwise she will be trapped at home trying to solve the other's problems, instead of living her own life. 

 

I didn't judge, I just analyzed their personalities.

 

If one simply analyzes, one uses value-free terms. Every quality has good and bad sides.          

[Roseanna]

Edith wanted just the opposite. She would have been perfectly happy with the life that was drawn out for her by tradition. She would have loved to marry some rich Aristocrat and live the typical life of a Lady. It was not her inclination that changed life for her,it was by force of circumstances. THAT is the big difference and I don't know why people have such a problem to admit to it? And personality wise they are extremely different. Edith has always been insecure and pessimistic. First episode of this season? Edith is moaning "do I have a life now?" She has inherited a newspaper, she brought her daughter home even though it seemed impossible, but she is still negative. It's night and day between Sybil and Edith. 

 

Mary wants power. She is a traditionalist, too, but more ambitious than Edith. She wanted to be a number in society and to be the queen of her own domain. In her class for a woman it was only possible to become a woman of influence by marrying a man of influence so that was what she wanted to do. She's again different to Edith, who just wanted to be happy and content.

 

I agree that Edith wanted a traditional life. BUT many stories begin just in that way: a protagonist is quite ordinary - until catastrophe happens that changes her life for good, because by fighting against the opponent or circumstances she becomes another kind of person or only then her qualities are revealed. 

 

On the other hand, Mary is meant by Fellowes to be an extraordinary person. She also meets a catastrophe (Titanic Pamuk). BUT she is rather passive and gets finally "all" by sheer luck (Lavinia died and her father left his money to Matthew).

 

Fellowes may have thought that she is ambitious, but her acts doesn't prove that - she didn't got anything because of her own actions (unlike Scarlett). When she was married to Matthew, she concentrated on decorating her drawing room, not getting power even in the village like Violet or becoming a political hostess. Of course she has now power in the estate, but only because Matthew left her his money and Tom ​encouraged her to manage the estate. An ambitious person would have taken power on her own initiative.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

Tom and Mary could call each other ‘brother’ and ‘sister’ forevermore. But they aren’t siblings. It is a convenient excuse to use Tom as Mary’s platonic pseudo-husband. Mary invites Tom on all of her dates? That’s completely normal sibling behaviour! Tom gives up all of his long-yearned-for personal endeavours in order to go on Mary’s dates? No one will suspect a thing! They’re siblings.

 

 Yes, it is ​odd.

 

However, Tom has a function in Mary's dates with Henry (but not with Gillingham and Blake). It's he who has something to talk about with Henry (cars).  And because Tom is there, Mary doesn't seem so eager to pursue Henry. For it's she who has made more initiative than Henry has, unlike again with Gillingham and Blake. They came often to Downton to meet her whereas now (after Henry came once to her home) it's Mary who goes to London and "surprises" him. Maybe Fellowes thought that because Mary is in both matters on a territory that was new and strange to her, she needs help from Tom (unlike Edith who thrives in London and can very well cope there on her own).  

 

Unfortunately the result was rather that, because Mary and Henry are so rarely alone, they don't form a close relationship (unlike again Edith and Bertie). 

[Andorra]

Roseanna,

I don't see why we have to discuss who is the better person, Edith and Mary. Your opinion on it is clear, mine is, too. I just stated, that Sybil was closer to Mary and that Tom is closer to Mary. I don't see where the problem is? It is just a fact and has nothing to do with Mary being "better" than Edith or the other way round. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Tom and Mary's interactions being significantly greater are no surprise considering that they work together, essentially. I'm not sure I believe Tom is closer to Mary, but I definitely don't agree that Sybil was any closer to Mary than Edith. The reason Sybil had intimate conversations about Tom pursuing her with Mary and not Edith is only because Mary noticed something was going on with them the day she saw them talking outside. I'm sure Sybil wouldn't have told Mary anything if Mary hadn't already found out.

[Andorra]

So what about them calling each other "Darling" while she didn't do that with Edith? What about Sybil talking to Mary about her marriage with Tom? About wanting to christen the Baby Catholic? Edith didn't know about it, Sybil mentioned that she had told Mary about it already though when they talked about it again while she was in labor. Obviously Mary was also the one exchanging letters with the Bransons, while the others didn't we heard about Sybil writing to Mary and Mary writing to Sybil, but nothing about Edith writing. 

[CleoCaesar]

The only thing I see written all over Mrs. Hughes's face is "oh God, I actually married this pompous, demanding windbag."

 

Thomas's tears do not move me one bit. He's been a piece of shit for 6 seasons, who's actively caused (and delighted in) the misery of others. He doesn't deserve a happy end, just a continuation of his miserable life.

 

I love Matthew Goode and all, but Henry Talbot is so boring. So very, very boring.

 

Bertie, on the other hand, is adorable and he and Edith and Marigold would make a sweet little family.

[JudyObscure]

I defended Carson for years, never minding his general stuffiness, but I straight up hate him now. He is the most insensitive husband imaginable and he is being downright cruel to Thomas. I started to cry before Thomas did. Carson and Daisy are despicable.

[Primetimer]

Scandalous inter-toff fight guaranteed to every ticket holder! Come on, it's for charity!

Read the story

[peggy06]

My antenna decided to flake out on PBS, so I only got snippets tonight. My main takeaway is therefore that Carson is rapidly becoming my least favorite character. The way he condescends to and treats Mrs. Hughes is just obnoxious, and would be in any time IMO. A close second is Daisy. I was able to see her incredible, selfish rudeness to Mr. Mason. Ugh, just ugh. I hope she passes her exams and takes off for York, or London, or anywhere away from Downton.

 

Not on the Mary/Tom train at all, but this romance with Henry is moving too fast for me, too. There hasn't been enough buildup, or perhaps it's that he comes across as wooden. I had heard good things about him in Death Comes to Pemberley and The Good Wife, but somehow he isn't clicking on this show.

Edited February 8, 2016 by peggy06

[alias1]

I hope before the season is over Mrs Hughes beats Carson over the head with his walking stick.  What a pompous ass. 

 

I hope Daisy fails her exams and has to eat humble pie.

 

I hope Mary ends up with Henry because they are both so boring.  Although I did love her dress when they had that dinner with Evelyn Napier.

 

I have to admit I felt bad for Thomas. 

[Artymouse]

Ugh, I hate Daisy and Mr. Carson after these last few weeks! I want Mrs. Hughes to let loose with a torrent of profanity that shocks Carson into silence, then she can bash him over the head with a frying pan.

And WTF Daisy? Is she 5 years old? She's acting like Mr. Mason is her Barbie doll that she doesn't want to share with Mrs. Patmore.

I wasn't a fan of this episode. I think it's out of character for Violet to turn into a screaming harridan in front of a house full of villagers. I hate they're going down the road of having everyone assume Thomas is seducing Andy. Cora annoyed me, but I'm not sure if that was the writing or Elizabeth McGovern's performance.

Positives: Thomas giving George a piggyback ride. Molesley in pretty much every scene he was in. Violet saying the fourth earl also collected horses and women. And getting the chance to see Evelyn Napier again (I'm unspoiled, but I'm guessing this was his last appearance). That's pretty much it. A very disappointing episode, IMO.

[bmoore4026]

Holy shit, they've lived their whole lives at Downton Abbey yet know fuck all about it!?  I love that!  They're not just out of touch with the common people, they're out of touch with history.

 

Yes, Thomas, you should cry.  See what being an asshole the entire series gets you?  Carson, Mrs. Hughes, and Mrs. Patmore are more important and one of them is ready to move on.  Hell, Daisy is more important than you as assistant cook.  Maybe Thomas could find work at the Warbucks Estate in America.  How good is he at singing and dancing?

 

Kind of wished that while Thomas was crying, the scene would shift to O'Brien watching all this from a magic mirror in India, cackling all the while.

 

Also rather hoping Mrs. Hughes pulls a Joan and smashes Carson on the head with a vase.

 

Cora went and pissed off Chicken Lady.  Violet's reaction to being screwed over was awesome.

 

Anna and Bates?  You're a sweet couple but I don't give a shit about your problems. 

 

And how fucking thick is Mary to just piece together now about Marigold and her ties to the family?  This is a redundant question.

[Amethyst]

It sounds awful, but I'm almost rooting for Daisy to fail her exams at this point.  I am that sick of her.  The crestfallen expression on Patmore's face was enough after Daisy started squawking about keeping away from Mason.  Everyone else is noticing her bratty behavior and they're sick of it.  

 

Carson's a dick.  Mrs. Hughes must have the patience of a saint, because he's just belittling her now.  I think he believes that he's made this massive compromise in getting married and moving out of the house.  So he doesn't see a problem in "gently" telling her how she could improve her cooking, cleaning, homemaking, etc.  Wouldn't blame Elsie if she slipped a laxative in the next dinner's dish.  And Carson's discussion with Thomas was just callous.  You don't gloat about your own job when you tell someone they're being fired.  

 

I know Thomas can be the absolute worst, but I feel bad for him.  He's just spiraling now.  I honestly wasn't sure if Mary was trying to ward George away from him, but between that and the misunderstanding about his lessons with Andy, I can see why Thomas is breaking down.  It looks like he was right, he may get fired before he finds another job.  Carson seemed to think the good reference would be enough.

 

The stuff with the tour was funny.  You rarely get to see the family goof up in public like that, but it sounds like they pulled in some good money from the tour.  Did they say how much they made?  Tom may be on the right track about making the tours a thing.  The little boy showing up in the bedroom was the best scene.  Gotta love the honesty of children.  

 

Violet cracked me up, I thought she was going to beat someone with her walking stick.  She and Carson should team up.

 

Is Anna showing yet?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Amethyst

[RedHawk]

I guess we're never going to learn if the Crawleys finally located that Gutenberg Bible. Cora might have waved her hand in its general direction to enthrall the visiting masses. Then again, if she does know where it is, best not to tell Tom or he'll have it on the auction block next week.

Edited February 8, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

How I wish Moseley had been given the chance to speak up and reveal his knowledge of artworks in the house or heraldic shields or something and earned Cora's stunned respect and gratitude.