S32: Debbie Wanner

[Whimsy]

Name (Age): Debbie Wanner (49)

Tribe Designation: Brains

Current Residence: Reading, Penn.

Occupation: Chemist

 

Here's your Debbie Wanner topic.

[PaperTree]

Debbie was just on the Philly local news.  Sez she wished she had Duct Tape to shut up those other losers.

She smells bitter.

[Rick Kitchen]

She's the one who needs duct tape over her mouth.

[LadyChatts]

She wants to play like Coach but she's coming off a little like Shirin.  Definitely over doing it.  Just reading her bio screams trying too hard.

[Nashville]

So did her own self-given intro to the group.

Sounded like she was trying to give her resume in 1,000 words or less, and failing miserably.

[fishcakes]

She wants to play like Coach but she's coming off a little like Shirin.

 

She reminded me of Shirin too, but far less successful at life. I don't doubt she's a smart person, but she seems like one of those smart people who, for whatever reason, don't have the wherewithal to just get it together. When she said she worked at a Red Lobster when she was "between jobs," I got the impression that she works at a Red Lobster a lot.

[laurakaye]

Wait - she's comparing her personality to Hannibal Lecter?  She thinks she's just like Coach?  Would bring along Chanel No. 5 (which, while classic, would not be a good choice to cover BO)?  She's skilled in torture?  I don't find her annoying anymore, I find her downright scary.

[Nashville]

Wait - she's comparing her personality to Hannibal Lecter?  She thinks she's just like Coach?  Would bring along Chanel No. 5 (which, while classic, would not be a good choice to cover BO)?  She's skilled in torture?  I don't find her annoying anymore, I find her downright scary.

Maybe she means she's a fictional legend...?

[macaddict]

Am I the only one who sees (and hears) Andrea Martin?

[Dobian]

Considering she was indicted for falsifying water purity reports in her job not too long ago, it calls into question the Survivor background check process once again.

[Nashville]

Considering she was indicted for falsifying water purity reports in her job not too long ago, it calls into question the Survivor background check process once again.

Depends on what they're checking, and against what criteria; they're checking for a TV show, after all, not a job application. What might disqualify you on one could make you a lock for the other.

[Kromm]

Considering she was indicted for falsifying water purity reports in her job not too long ago, it calls into question the Survivor background check process once again.

 

Depends on what they're checking, and against what criteria; they're checking for a TV show, after all, not a job application. What might disqualify you on one could make you a lock for the other.

Someone on another thread says she wasn't just indicted, but convicted.  She's only not in jail because she got probation (the theory seems to be that she probably flipped on her boss and got a lesser sentence).

 

Nevertheless that still makes her an ex-con. Every single thing ever asks on the application if you're an ex-con, so either she lied on her application, or she didn't and the show somehow didn't care.

 

And really given the recent stuff going on in Flint. Michigan with water officials there, you'd think this story about this woman would be SOMEWHERE in the media--that a story about a corrupt water official somewhere getting on one of the biggest reality shows and having the balls to ramble on about her experience as a water export (it's not in any recent media reports I can find--at least at the time I'm posting this). The person who found this (and posted it on reddit I guess) literally found it via a 5 year old news story--not a recent one.

Oh, on the delusional front, now that she's not a water expert anymore, now she thinks she's a model:  http://www.modelmayhem.com/2850516

Edited February 26, 2016 by Kromm

[LadyChatts]

If Debbie was only on probation and was up front about it (and doesn't pose a threat to any of the contestants), maybe it wasn't grounds for dismissal?  Jenny said she had been to prison and is a former addict, not the first nor the last we are likely to have on here.  So maybe they have certain criteria.  Debbie's the kind of contestant I can see TPTB drooling over.  I think she's like Shirin, but she says she wants to play like Coach (I love how she can say that with a straight face).  But someone that's quirky and who you can put a different job title under their name every 2 seconds?  If TPTB could work this bit from her past into the show while Debbie's talking about being a water expert, I think they would.  

 

I don't know that the media cares so much about this stuff anymore.  I see more of an uproar when something racist or homophobic is discovered on a contestants SM page vs anything about arrests.

 

I do wonder about these so-called screening experts for these shows, and wonder if we will get to that day where they turn the other cheek for the sake of TV, and put through "the one" that shouldn't have made it past the first round.

Edited February 26, 2016 by LadyChatts

[Kromm]

Okay, but the point is that she's banging on air about the very thing she was convicted over. You'd think the show would either exploit OR ban her, one or the other. Because the middle-ground--having her on and simply ignoring it--opens the door to the show being embarrassed if someone DOES find out the story and talks about it in exactly the terms we are now.  I think they've just lucked out that nobody in the media has run with this--like I said the current "hook"  is the Flint, Michigan thing (which isn't as sexy as some stories but very topical right now).  A corrupt water official should be worth some headline space to someone because of that.  And really "the media" includes bloggers and the like, so it's not like the traditional media are the only ones who have missed this. There's just this one redditor who found it, basically, and a few people here who saw that.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Kromm

[Jersey Guy 87]

The initial application on the CCBS web site doesn't ask if you've ever been convicted of a crime (it really doesn't ask much at all).  I don't think it would be a show stopper for them assuming any crime you've been convicted of wasn't violent.

[NutMeg]

Wait - she's comparing her personality to Hannibal Lecter?  She thinks she's just like Coach?  Would bring along Chanel No. 5 (which, while classic, would not be a good choice to cover BO)?  She's skilled in torture?  I don't find her annoying anymore, I find her downright scary.

Well, maybe she's more self aware than I thought about her effect on (some of) her tribemates and on viewers :) 

[Nashville]

Well, maybe she's more self aware than I thought about her effect on (some of) her tribemates and on viewers :)

Well, I for one feel tortured as fuck every time Debbie opens her mouth.

[Kromm]

The initial application on the CCBS web site doesn't ask if you've ever been convicted of a crime (it really doesn't ask much at all).  

Perhaps that's because if you DO get to the middle stages, that's when they have you investigated? (someone only behind a keyboard, of course, but you can certainly find out what you need to that way)

 

 

I don't think it would be a show stopper for them assuming any crime you've been convicted of wasn't violent.

Perhaps. But it's interesting that they rarely disclose this on air (unless they exploit the ex-con thing AS the person's main backstory).

[Guest]

It makes sense that their selection process would in ways favor ex-cons.  They admit they love to cast people with poor impulse control, low or high IQ, and extreme, controversial opinions.  

[LanceM]

Okay, but the point is that she's banging on air about the very thing she was convicted over. You'd think the show would either exploit OR ban her, one or the other. Because the middle-ground--having her on and simply ignoring it--opens the door to the show being embarrassed if someone DOES find out the story and talks about it in exactly the terms we are now.  I think they've just lucked out that nobody in the media has run with this--like I said the current "hook"  is the Flint, Michigan thing (which isn't as sexy as some stories but very topical right now).  A corrupt water official should be worth some headline space to someone because of that.  And really "the media" includes bloggers and the like, so it's not like the traditional media are the only ones who have missed this. There's just this one redditor who found it, basically, and a few people here who saw that.

 

Their luck has just run out...

 

http://www.tmz.com/2016/02/26/survivor-contestant-guilty-crime-katrina-water/

[Kromm]

Their luck has just run out...

 

http://www.tmz.com/2016/02/26/survivor-contestant-guilty-crime-katrina-water/

TMZ has been known to fish on reddit, but they also have at times peeked around on boards like this. Most likely they saw this very thread (or the episode thread where it was mentioned first). They even mention the Flint water crisis (although it's admittedly an obvious link).

Of course when she was cast the Flint thing was far in the future (it getting in the news I mean), but as I said it's the reason for a place like TMZ to care about this nut.

[JudyObscure]

Oh, on the delusional front, now that she's not a water expert anymore, now she thinks she's a model:  http://www.modelmayhem.com/2850516

And here I thought the criminal thing was shocking.



[kakiphony]

From the episode thread from Circle of Life...

 

I'm curious... do you like her in spite of her real world issues, or have you not been aware of them?

Not indicting your liking of her. I'm genuinely curious if the real world part is known to you, and if it matters to what you're seeing on screen or not.

 

 

 

 I'm another person who (so far) likes Debbie, and I am fully aware of her real world issues. I

 

I'm also aware that the facts regarding the situation are minimal. We know the original charges and that she was charged alongside her boss. We know that she must have taken some sort of plea deal because her conviction and sentence are considerably less than the original. People are taking what she said about not needing to boil the water on the show and correlating that with the charges to come to the conclusion that either 1) she knew what was going on and deliberately falsified water tests in order to line her pockets; or 2) is completely delusional and thought she didn't need to conduct proper tests because she had magic powers.

 

I'm not sure that either of those two conclusions are true. We don't know what kind of tests were being run. We don't know what kind of tests were supposed to be run. We don't know how much knowledge Debbie had of the actual contracts for the water tests (i.e. did she know one kind of test was needed and that she was only providing a different kind?) We don't know if she was coerced in some way by her boss. We don't know what steps, if any, she took to try to correct the problem. We don't know how the problem was uncovered (was there a whistle blower? who was it? could she have encouraged the whistle blowing? or did she try to prevent it?) We just don't know.

 

What we do know is that she clearly cooperated with the prosecution -- which I actually respect -- and that she got a fairly lenient sentence. This could indicate either that her cooperation was critical and so she got a great deal, or that the court found her actions and culpability to not merit a heavier sentence. Either way, she served her sentence and is entitled to now try to make a new life for herself. 

 

Since we know so very little, I am not willing to let my judgment of her be made by those circumstances. I'd rather watch the show and develop my opinion about her game play based on her game play -- not on a bunch of outside circumstances that I don't really understand anyway. To date, she has been annoying, loud, weird, shrewd, entertaining, and successful. I like that. Will I continue to like that or will the annoying eventually become the dominant trait? Only time will tell.

 

I also dislike making fun of her for trying to model. No, she doesn't look like either a runway model or a Sport's Illustrated Swimsuit model. But for her age, she's a striking woman who is in excellent physical condition. Some of those picture were, in my opinion, actually pretty good. If someone wants to use her as a catalog model, I think that's great. Making fun of her for pursuing this is way too close to judging her looks and body, and I find that really icky. Judge her game play, not whether you find her attractive enough to be a model.

[NutMeg]

[off topic, but there is such a thing as character/atypical model, and I can see some instances where I would definitely cast her.] Model type is often understood as meaning best looking but in some cases it means the personnality we're looking for. And truly, she's pretty unique. And would fit a type not found very easily because they usually don't register on agency's books.

[riverheightsnancy]

I'm not sure that either of those two conclusions are true. We don't know what kind of tests were being run. We don't know what kind of tests were supposed to be run. We don't know how much knowledge Debbie had of the actual contracts for the water tests (i.e. did she know one kind of test was needed and that she was only providing a different kind?) We don't know if she was coerced in some way by her boss. We don't know what steps, if any, she took to try to correct the problem. We don't know how the problem was uncovered (was there a whistle blower? who was it? could she have encouraged the whistle blowing? or did she try to prevent it?) We just don't know.

 

What we do know is that she clearly cooperated with the prosecution -- which I actually respect -- and that she got a fairly lenient sentence. This could indicate either that her cooperation was critical and so she got a great deal, or that the court found her actions and culpability to not merit a heavier sentence. Either way, she served her sentence and is entitled to now try to make a new life for herself. 

 

 

I also dislike making fun of her for trying to model. No, she doesn't look like either a runway model or a Sport's Illustrated Swimsuit model. But for her age, she's a striking woman who is in excellent physical condition. Some of those picture were, in my opinion, actually pretty good. If someone wants to use her as a catalog model, I think that's great. Making fun of her for pursuing this is way too close to judging her looks and body, and I find that really icky. Judge her game play, not whether you find her attractive enough to be a model.

I agree. We don't know, maybe her boss made her do water testing that way? Maybe she was pressured to cut corners. I worked in a hospital where they blah, blah, blah talked incessantly  about protecting our patients. Well when we found active mold spores behind the walls of one of our isolation rooms, what did they do? Nothing. We tried to force their hand with pictures and actual outside (covert) mold tests and I burned a bridge that I never could overcome. To this day, old friends that I know who still work there tell me that the issue has never been remediated. That has been 4+ years ago. I was painted as a bad person and that I broke ethics by doing an independent mold test. I was trying to protect us and the patients and it certainly got painted in a different light for everyone else. I could see something like that happening here, although Debbie could just be lazy (i.e., didn;t do her job correctly) AND guilty. 

I agree about the modeling. I think the pics are good. The Baby Boomers are one of the largest populations in the US right now. Therefore targeting advertising to them is just smart. Look up Boom cosmetics with Cindy Joseph. She is a beautiful older woman who is making an entire career by being older and deciding that that is ok. She is gorgeous too. 

[Guest]

She describes herself as 'ridiculously ripped' or something, and others comment on her physical condition, but to me she just seems underfat.  If your BMI is verging on underweight, your muscles show, not because they're big or strong but because there's nothing over them.  Which I only remark on not to be catty but I don't like to see 'underweight BMI' being held up as some feminine ideal.  Women need a certain amount of body fat for general health.  Less isn't always more.  

 

But I don't pay a lot of attention to the challenges anymore.  Maybe she's killing it and that's what's behind the comments.  

 

(For "ridiculously ripped", see Cydney.)

[deSchenke]

Debbie is a ringer for Margaret Hamilton.  

[LadyChatts]

I don't typically bring outside issues into the show as a make or break for liking someone, especially if they've been resolved and they are moving on with their lives (depending, of course, what they are).  Debbie isn't the first nor the last to wind up cast on the show with some past conviction (heck, the very first season, Kelly Wiglesworth had some legal skeletons in her closet).

 

I find Debbie annoying, more Shirin that Coach, but I'm wondering if the Shirin side of her is just a cover.  At any rate, I'm glad she and Joe survived this week's vote after the initial age bias at their tribe, and I'm also happy that she didn't just do what Liz and Peter told her to do.  I don't know if she's got real game underneath it all, or if she'll even survive another vote.

Edited March 4, 2016 by LadyChatts

[deSchenke]

I'm sorry, but I can't unsee it!

 

[Kromm]

Okay, I just talked about her perhaps being a bit delusional pushing herself as a model. Even I didn't go there comparing her to a witch!

As for her criminal past, I wouldn't necessarily judge her that harshly, not having all of the facts, if she hadn't been on Survivor banging on about that VERY topic--water safety. The point was that there's considerable irony in her having done that during a taping last year while hiding (at least from her castmates, but in terms of the show editing not discussing it, the public as well) a past that included a criminal conviction related to some misdeed having to do with the sanctity of water inspections. It's her manifestation of ego on the subject on the show that's striking, that's all. Not even that she might not legitimately be an expert--because I doubt her conviction was negligence rather than corruption--but even if it WERE the less serious of those (negligence), that is actually the more ironic when she's onscreen being a braggart on the subject.

If she were just some random ex-con with a history of lets say... Tax evasion... it really would be a "who gives a shit". It's the specific relevance of her past career and how it panned out to what she's saying and doing on the show that elevates it to something relevant TO the show.

[RedheadZombie]

I have mixed emotions about Debbie. For me, she runs the gamut of smart, delusional, obnoxious, funny, strategic, and rude. I do kind of like how comfortable she is in her own skin. By some comments, you'd think she should just curl up and die because she dares to leave the home while not conventionally attractive. I kind of like how she struts around like she's hot stuff.

[Nashville]

There are some people who at certain points in their lives earns the title "catastrophically unlucky". Whether by the consequences of their own direct actions/choices or by happenstance, they manage to be That Guy who is in exactly the wrong place at precisely the wrong time. Either they continually just miss out on the good stuff (a la The Blitz), or they show up just in time to get totally mired in the shit.

While I do not in any way condone her actions leading to her conviction, I have come to the conclusion Debbie is one of those people. Can anybody honestly say their reaction to Debbie's conviction on charges related to "falsifying water test results" would have been nearly as extreme, had it not surfaced in the midst of the furor surrounding the Flint fiasco?

If this season had aired without delay on the show's normal schedule, it would have concluded before the Flint story emerged on national media - and at a time when much of the general public was still largely ignorant of how extreme a public health hazard could be posed by inaccurate or falsified water tests. In the pre-Flint public eye, revelation of her conviction would have been little more than an eyebrow-raising blip on the radar. It was Debbie's own rotten luck that her transgressions came to light at a unique point in time in history when irregular water testing - and its impact - would be equated with an act of genocide affecting thousands.

[azshadowwalker]

I agree. We don't know, maybe her boss made her do water testing that way? Maybe she was pressured to cut corners

When I am pressured to "cut corners", I not only explicitly and publicly condemn the request in front of my entire department, I quit if that's what it takes. In a job that affects public health, that's the absolute minimum standard to be considered anything but complete moral garbage. Going along to get along, even if that is all she did, is indication of moral cowardice and utter disregard for other people.

As for cooperation with authorities after the fact, I hate snitches as much as I hate the kind of corruption she was involved in. It's the epitome of "Sorry I got caught." If she really cared about what was going on, she wouldn't have waited until they came to her. She certainly wouldn't have gone along with it for a buck or two. Someone who turns over only after they have already benefited in order to benefit in a different way isn’t doing it to set things right.

As for Flint, lots of people cared about environmental racism and public health crises prior to that. It's the media that didn't care.

So, yeah, public health endangerment along with snitching for a lighter sentence is something I will hold against her. I will celebrate when she is gone, and I only hope she has reason to be bitter about her ouster.

[pennben]

Generally speaking, if you want to get the top dog, you're going to have to get some minions to flip (or "snitch" or "roll over").  Who knows if this is what Debbie did, but to condemn snitching means that more than likely the mastermind keeps on and just replaces the "snitch" with someone else in the network.  Sometimes folks have selfish motives which prevents them from being a whistleblower but when their interests align with a prosecutor's interest for the benefit of the public is most often how the system works.

 

No reason to attribute good motives to most of those that "snitch", but, for better or worse, I'd rather have a snitch post-getting caught than someone who takes the fall while the one in power moves on to do more of whatever else they were going to do. Remorse and rehabilitation are also things that I truly hope exist in the world.

Edited March 6, 2016 by pennben

[violet and green]

As for her criminal past, I wouldn't necessarily judge her that harshly, not having all of the facts, if she hadn't been on Survivor banging on about that VERY topic--water safety. 

 

Well, that is not how you presented it to me on the episode thread, Circle of Life. You questioned how I could possibly say I adored Debbie, given her 'real world issues'. Was I just unaware of them?, you asked. Was I somehow able to just compartmentalise  her heinous crimes, you wondered, and enjoy her on the show? So, I am glad to see you say you are no longer judging her so harshly, after all.

There is so much we don't know.

[JudyObscure]

I enjoy watching Debbie on the show, and, due to the ageism of the rest of her tribe, I hope she and Joe are the last Brains standing.

However, I refuse to be shamed for talking about her past or her appearance. It's really pretty simple, if you don't want someone to talk about your looks don't brag about how "ridiculously ripped," you are and start a site dedicated to "glamourous," poses of yourself in swimsuits. Holding up extreme emaciation as an ideal is a false idea of fitness that shouldn't be encouraged. She says she tells people at her gym that it may not be possible for them to be as fit as she is. Fit for what? Certainly not for bearing children or withstanding disease. Estrogen lives in fat, a woman with zero body fat is probably not even ovulating and her heart wont be as healthy.

It would be easy for Debbie to live a private life with no one commenting on her appearance. She could just not go on reality TV and not advertise herself on the internet and if she doesn't want anyone to bring up her criminal past, maybe she shouldn't have committed a crime. Falsifying test results, in any field, at any time, whether your boss asks you to or not, is wrong. It's always wrong. It wasn't bad luck that got Debbie in trouble it was cheating. These were all her own choices.

[Nashville]

It wasn't bad luck that got Debbie in trouble it was cheating. These were all her own choices.

 

No argument there, and her choices and their consequences weren't the bad luck to which I was referring.

It was the timing of the exposure of her record - on national media - at quite possibly the first time in the history of media her specific charges should be portrayed as an offense akin to mass poisoning.

The national record exposure should be considered par for the course in terms of participating in a show such as Survivor, of course.

But not the backlash, until recently; this time last year, public reaction probably wouldn't have been much more than an "Oh, yuck."

 

The real question is - did the nature of Debbie's specific transgressions rise to the level of threatening public safety? 

Don't know, but I doubt it. 

Her sentence was 12 months of probation and $147 in restitution to the victims - and in terms of a sentence on federal charges, that's light - like, super light. 

Hell, forging a notary seal will get you a year in federal prison.

So - and this is purely guesswork on my part - but I don't think her specific acts against the law rose to the equivalent of poisoning babies.

Just my opinion.

[violet and green]

I enjoy watching Debbie on the show, and, due to the ageism of the rest of her tribe, I hope she and Joe are the last Brains standing.

However, I refuse to be shamed for talking about her past or her appearance. It's really pretty simple, if you don't want someone to talk about your looks don't brag about how "ridiculously ripped," you are and start a site dedicated to "glamourous," poses of yourself in swimsuits. Holding up extreme emaciation as an ideal is a false idea of fitness that shouldn't be encouraged. She says she tells people at her gym that it may not be possible for them to be as fit as she is. Fit for what? Certainly not for bearing children or withstanding disease. Estrogen lives in fat, a woman with zero body fat is probably not even ovulating and her heart wont be as healthy.

It would be easy for Debbie to live a private life with no one commenting on her appearance. She could just not go on reality TV and not advertise herself on the internet and if she doesn't want anyone to bring up her criminal past, maybe she shouldn't have committed a crime. Falsifying test results, in any field, at any time, whether your boss asks you to or not, is wrong. It's always wrong. It wasn't bad luck that got Debbie in trouble it was cheating. These were all her own choices.

 

She can't go back in time and not have committed whatever it was she did. It's done, whatever it is. I don't think she's said she doesn't want people to bring up her past?! And I don't think anyone has said you or anyone else are not to bring up her past. Really, the point has only been made that we don't actually know what her past involved, other than a lot of speculation and assumptions.

 

And I'm not sure where you're getting the notion of being 'shamed' from, about any of this - although I certainly felt I was supposed to admit I was ignorant, dopey, or else some sort of a creep for finding anything likeable about this 'criminal'.

 

Personally, I find it painful when older women are sniggered at simply for showing signs of natural ageing. But I don't expect it to stop any time soon. I also don't think the nation's fertility is going to be greatly affected by the example of a 49 year old woman's scrawny physique.

[Kromm]

I don't particularly think she looks like Margaret Hamilton, but I do agree with the idea that when someone specifically brags about something, this is them opening the door themselves. What winds up being mocked is usually as much their attitude as the actual thing seemingly being mocked. Shakespeare (and many people since) called this "being hoisted by one's own petard". 
 

This is true for both her appearance and what she's built up egowise around it, and her bragging about her skillset, including, yes her specific claims about being a water expert. The point isn't even totally about if she has those skills, it's the irony of banging on about it to a nationwide audience while hiding a scandal/secret about it. It's about the ego aspect of it, and the lack of humility, in a circumstance where (since at the very least she was driven out of that field) you'd think some humility would be a good thing. So yes, that comes off as humorous, and more than a little bit ridiculous, regardless of how much time she served or what fine she paid.  Unless she was totally some kind of scapegoat in the thing and we don't know that. If so, perhaps it will come out on the reunion special, or in her post-show interviews (although I don't know if Rob C. has even spoken about this yet--so maybe not from his interview), and we can put it to bed then.

 

Getting back to her appearance, that's a dicier thing, because we've all seen that used and abused by so many people over the years, but I do think the line of outrage is a little further away when it's mocking their attitude as well as their appearance.  Petard, meet hoist.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Kromm

[JudyObscure]

Really, the point has only been made that we don't actually know what her past involved, other than a lot of speculation and assumptions.

But we do know. Debbie pled guilty to falsifying results on water tests. All the speculation and assumptions have been by her apologists saying her boss probably forced her to do it, or she was really only confused or neglectful, and she's probably really, really remorseful. Maybe. I think the charges would have been different if that were the case and that she's lucky they were after someone bigger so that she could make deals.

My mind didn't go to Flint with this at all, it went to a friend of mine who works in the same field in this town. Debbie was in a position of public trust, it doesn't have to be babies' water. It could be water used for farm animals or the amount of chemicals going into the local rivers, it all still maters, water and air quality are vital to all life and Debbie knew this. I don't agree with the idea that people should be allowed to commit crimes without losing any reputation points. We tell our children not to do certain things and that actions have consequences and then when an adult does something wrong the children see that the ones who are "judged harshly," are not actually the ones who did wrong but their detractors.

I worked in banks all my life and once in a while a co-worker would be walked out in handcuffs. We all knew the rules, but there were always a few who thought they were smarter than everyone else and no one would catch their super clever shenanigans. That's how I see Debbie. And we were just dealing with insured money, not anything that might affect public health.

[Kromm]

But we do know. Debbie pled guilty to falsifying results on water tests. All the speculation and assumptions have been by her apologists saying her boss probably forced her to do it, or she was really only confused or neglectful, and she's probably really, really remorseful. Maybe. I think the charges would have been different if that were the case and that she's lucky they were after someone bigger so that she could make deals.

My mind didn't go to Flint with this at all, it went to a friend of mine who works in the same field in this town. Debbie was in a position of public trust, it doesn't have to be babies' water. It could be water used for farm animals or the amount of chemicals going into the local rivers, it all still maters, water and air quality are vital to all life and Debbie knew this. I don't agree with the idea that people should be allowed to commit crimes without losing any reputation points. We tell our children not to do certain things and that actions have consequences and then when an adult does something wrong the children see that the ones who are "judged harshly," are not actually the ones who did wrong but their detractors.

I worked in banks all my life and once in a while a co-worker would be walked out in handcuffs. We all knew the rules, but there were always a few who thought they were smarter than everyone else and no one would catch their super clever shenanigans. That's how I see Debbie. And we were just dealing with insured money, not anything that might affect public health.

Well that's the thing: this is probably not a victimless crime. It's probably not hands-off-typical white collar crime either, not just mis-juggling numbers, but to a prosecutor (pre-Flint) I suppose it looked like that. Most municipalities don't want to pay to keep people (especially white people) in jail. They'll take the conviction--the statistic--and the parole, because it's economically what's best for their area.  At least for non-drug offenses (where their locals would eventually call them out on it). 

 

It's true to say we don't know the specifics--because it could be either her really getting a light sentence because it was nothing, or her getting one because it seemed like a typical white collar, white person, "harmless" crime to a prosecutor at the time. But as I said, to ME at least this has all been even more about her attitude, that overconfidence/arrogance, than anything else.

 

I'm prepared to be persuaded otherwise if more facts come out. But in a vacuum, and since we are not in a court of law, I reserve my right to judge her harshly. As I said, it's hoisting her on her own petard for me.  Being stubborn and only judging her on that might be a mistake, but letting it color our early opinions of her seems fair to me, since she put herself on TV. She's not just some total innocent who wound up getting verbal potshots taken randomly on the Internet or in a newspaper.  She's a (willfully enrolled) reality TV star.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Kromm

[marys1000]

I wonder if Debbie, being smart (if she indeed has a high IQ) but having either some other  nature or nuture problem is in a place as an adult where she constantly trips herself up by her  desire to prove to others how smart and valuable she is?  I don't particularly like psychoanalyzing contestants but I'm concerned that the

fact that she did seem to successfully read the situation and orchestrate a blindside will go to her head and cause her to trip herself up (again).  She seems susceptible to bragging which is often associated with some sort of insecurity.  That can be a real bad combination in Survivor. 

[riverheightsnancy]

When I am pressured to "cut corners", I not only explicitly and publicly condemn the request in front of my entire department, I quit if that's what it takes. In a job that affects public health, that's the absolute minimum standard to be considered anything but complete moral garbage. Going along to get along, even if that is all she did, is indication of moral cowardice and utter disregard for other people.

As for cooperation with authorities after the fact, I hate snitches as much as I hate the kind of corruption she was involved in. It's the epitome of "Sorry I got caught." If she really cared about what was going on, she wouldn't have waited until they came to her. She certainly wouldn't have gone along with it for a buck or two. Someone who turns over only after they have already benefited in order to benefit in a different way isn’t doing it to set things right.

As for Flint, lots of people cared about environmental racism and public health crises prior to that. It's the media that didn't care.

So, yeah, public health endangerment along with snitching for a lighter sentence is something I will hold against her. I will celebrate when she is gone, and I only hope she has reason to be bitter about her ouster.

Oh, I totally agree that not standing to your ethics and standards of practice is 100% wrong. I used to work in a hospital setting and my own area of expertise has it's own code of ethics as well. (Do No Harm covers just about everything). However, having witnessed first hand how hospital admin says one thing about patient care and then another when presented with a situation that puts patients and staff at risk, especially for those imuno-compromised and how they handled it, I view it a bit differently now.  I know I got treated poorly because I spoke out, and I also understand now why people are reticent to speak out. I had to leave that job because the situation became too tense. And while I understand the sentiment that people should "just quit" to force a hand or prove a point, it often does nothing unless someone is willing to go public.  Sometimes people cannot because the loss of income might be too severe. The job market hasn't been that great and maybe she worried about getting another job right away? I always think about the movie for the guy who tried to expose the tobacco companies and how that went. (not well at all!) This is why we have whisteblower laws, but often the whisteblower's outcome is not so rosy. Again, we don't know Debbie's whole story. It could be that she did it and doesn't care. Or was coerced. What would be worse is IF she really believes that she can tell if water is ok from just looking at it and she thinks that what she was doing was a-ok. That would be a different level of dysfunction and possible delusional thinking (and we have seen some odd statements from her on the show, but not enough to know if it is an act or the way she really is). 

[ByaNose]

Where is her tiger bathing suit? Was that just for the publicity photos? This is of great national security. The people have the right to know. LOL!!!

[Guest]

Personally, I find it painful when older women are sniggered at simply for showing signs of natural ageing. But I don't expect it to stop any time soon. I also don't think the nation's fertility is going to be greatly affected by the example of a 49 year old woman's scrawny physique.

I think most of us here are older women and are nowhere near 'sniggering at (anyone) for simply showing signs of natural aging'.  

 

What's painful (oh the drama) is the allegation that the rest of us, on a site for ridiculing tv, are ageist for commenting on an Agent Phillip level nutball on reality tv.  I'm pretty sure Debbie could be 18 or 28 and she'd get the same reaction, or worse.  

[fishcakes]

After Cochran's first season, when Probst asked him how the ubiquitous "person on the street" was treating him, Cochran said that in person, people were pretty nice, but that he didn't read what people were saying about him on the internet because he knew how horrific that could be (and since he was banned from Survivor Sucks at least a couple of times -- and seriously, how much of a freak do you have to be to be banned from Sucks -- he knew whereof he spoke). Reality TV + the internet have been around long enough that everyone who willingly agrees to go on Survivor or any other show knows they're opening themselves up to being judged, both fairly and unfairly. Personally, I think everything is fair game -- appearance, intellect, what they do or have done outside the show, etc. I have cracked on all these things and will continue to do so in the future.

 

However, it does seem that some contestants will get judged far more harshly and with less blowback from other posters. Posters can comment on how "anorexic" a thin women looks all day long and no one will object. I will be more than happy to never again read, "someone get her a sandwich, stat!" By contrast, overweight women seem to be off-limits -- not that posters won't call them fat, but when it happens, other posters will jump in to condemn them for it. The group who never seems to be off-limits is older women. Older women who, horror of all horrors, look their age or older, get comments on how ancient they look almost immediately. Tina in the Outback, Kim in Africa, Kathy in Marquesas, Jan from Thailand, Lil, Scout, Jane from Nicaragua, even Kass, have all gotten one or more, "no way is she X years old. I am X plus 5 years old and she looks way older than I do!" It reminds me of how many bloggers or tweeters that I've read are having a hard time finding a bra because they are thin, yet large-breasted, and pants because their legs are longer than average.

 

Debbie, being thin, over 40, evidently historically not a big consumer of sunscreen, as well as a convicted criminal and also possibly bugfuck crazy, is leaving herself wide open to be judged and criticized here and elsewhere online because that is Internet 101. At the same time, those of us doing the judging and criticizing are leaving ourselves open to be judged and criticized for doing it because that is also Internet 101. If Debbie doesn't want people to criticize her for living, then she shouldn't live on TV for 13 weeks. And if posters don't want to be criticized for talking shit about people, then they shouldn't talk shit about people. I've shit-talked Survivor contestants for years and have been called on it a few times when people thought I went too far. Par for the course.

Edited March 6, 2016 by fishcakes

[JudyObscure]

What's painful (oh the drama) is the allegation that the rest of us, on a site for ridiculing tv, are ageist for commenting on an Agent Phillip level nutball on reality tv.  I'm pretty sure Debbie could be 18 or 28 and she'd get the same reaction, or worse.

 

Agree a hundred times.  I always feel blindsided by it, too, because there is no way to guess who the next delicate flower, in need of immunity from criticism, will be.

Agent Phillip is a good example.  People felt free to beg for eye bleach every time he came on screen in his pink undies.  This year some have been grossed out by Jason's ears, Caleb's Big Brother past has been spoken of as unforgiveable and no one said it was in the past and he can't undo it. Funny how men are considered fair game so much more than women.

[peachmangosteen]

Great post, fishcakes.

 

After Cochran's first season, when Probst asked him how the ubiquitous "person on the street" was treating him, Cochran said that in person, people were pretty nice, but that he didn't read what people were saying about him on the internet because he knew how horrific that could be (and since he was banned from Survivor Sucks at least a couple of times -- and seriously, how much of a freak do you have to be to be banned from Sucks -- he knew whereof he spoke).

 

Cochran was banned from Survivor Sucks?! Wow. Why? As you said, that place is a wasteland of horribleness I can't even imagine what he could have done to get banned.

 

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the Debbie issue. I feel like, for whatever reason, I'm having an OK time enjoying her on tv even though the whole water thing is giving me pause.

Edited March 6, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

Cochran was banned from Survivor Sucks?! Wow. Why? As you said, that place is a wasteland of horribleness I can't even imagine what he could have done to get banned.

 

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the Debbie issue. I feel like, for whatever reason, I'm having an OK time enjoying her on tv even though the whole water thing is giving me pause.

 

As I understand it, Cochran was the infamous "Gumby" (and there is a YouTube video of a very young Cochran confirming his identity that is linked to somewhere here in one of the Past Seasons threads) who posted a fair amount of racist stuff, but I think the offense that got him banned was something about how he took a crap in a bag and kept it in his closet? Heh. I don't even know. Then he came back and got banned again, not for being an ass, but for admitting he was Gumby. I rarely do more than pop into Sucks once a season, if that often, but someone here should have more details.

 

I'm the same as you on Debbie. I'm liking her on the show, but I suspect she's probably a terrible person in real life.

Edited March 6, 2016 by fishcakes

[JudyObscure]

Has anyone besides Fauxbama criticized Debbie for being/looking old?  I haven't seen it.   I think one reason the super thin women get criticized more than the heavier women is that the thin women are more likely to do what Debbie has done and brag about herself.  You can bet if a chunky woman was claiming that everyone else was jealous of her body and telling them that they could probably never achieve her curves -- there would be talk.  That's actually how I give myself permission to talk about a woman's looks is whether or not she seems vain about them.  All the women on the Beauty tribe who bragged about how they plan to use their looks to win Survivor?  Fair game.  All the women on "The Bachelor," who thought they were beautiful enough to beat out  26 other gorgeous girls?  Fair game.  Someone like Aubry who seems a little shy about her looks?  Not fair game.

 

And if posters don't want to be criticized for talking shit about people, then they shouldn't talk shit about people.

Isn't that what this sort of message board is, at least partly,  about?  I can understand getting dog-piled if I went to Gweneth Paltrow's fan site and said I thought she looked like a boy in a wig, but I thought this was my safe place to snark.