S06.E03: Season 6, Episode 3

[lucindabelle]

Good job, Soraya!  You've got a hawk eye and a good memory.  I think Edith would know a thing or two about the overall workings of the magazine, besides just the writing aspect, or Gregson wouldn't have created a formal structure leaving her in charge.  Of course he didn't expect to be murdered, but still he could have left it in someone else's hands.

 

Well, he left it to her as a property.

I work at a newspaper and know firsthand our owners are neither editors nor journalists. So I don't think that point really works at all. Publishers don't need to have layout skills.

 

i do remember that scene but looking at a page just doesn't register to me the same way as understanding layout. I worked at the paper for years before I became a section editor and although I had a page I always had to draw still had to take a test.

But I guess this is all we're getting.

[ShadowFacts]

Well, he left it to her as a property.

I work at a newspaper and know firsthand our owners are neither editors nor journalists. So I don't think that point really works at all. Publishers don't need to have layout skills.

 

i do remember that scene but looking at a page just doesn't register to me the same way as understanding layout. I worked at the paper for years before I became a section editor and although I had a page I always had to draw still had to take a test.

But I guess this is all we're getting.

I think he did more than leave it as an inheritance.  He had her sign some papers (which she did not read) leaving her in charge, I think.  She may not have had a big grasp of how to do layout, but she was in a pinch and had to do the best she could in a few hours with input from Audrey probably and fly by the seat of her pants.  And she would have past issues to refer to for some guidance, so I can buy it in a sense--it was sort of like Mary and the pigs, a way to have a new romantic interest work under pressure with our heroine (I use the word loosely).

[Constantinople]

Mary: I hope Anna's wrong, but she seems to think you wouldn't lend Mrs Hughes a coat.

Cora: I just walked in and they were putting on my clothes.

Mary: Please tell me you weren't rude.

Robert: Your mother has had a horrible afternoon with Granny. They were at each other's throats.

Mary: Does that excuse insulting a woman who has served us faithfully for many years, who simply wanted something nice to be married in?

Cora: Why didn't you tell me?

Mary: I tried to but you stormed off.

 

Translation:

Cora: Why didn't you tell me?

Mary: I was too lazy to get my off my ass to give you a head's up.

[lucindabelle]

I think he did more than leave it as an inheritance.  He had her sign some papers (which she did not read) leaving her in charge, I think.  She may not have had a big grasp of how to do layout, but she was in a pinch and had to do the best she could in a few hours with input from Audrey probably and fly by the seat of her pants.  And she would have past issues to refer to for some guidance, so I can buy it in a sense--it was sort of like Mary and the pigs, a way to have a new romantic interest work under pressure with our heroine (I use the word loosely).

 

Yes, I know that's what Fellowes was attempting to do with that scene.

For me, that's the same as suggesting someone who can sing on key can sub for a flautist in the orchestra.

Layout is highly skilled, putting together a magazine is not something you can figure out in a day, and she didn't even HAVE a day.

We are sitting here having to fanwank when she learned it and that Audrey helped-- it's not what we were shown. Putting together a magazine takes a team. I'm a pro, and it irked.

[Misstify]

I think the boutonniere had a fern, a rose, and a piece of heather. He removed the fern and left the other two. The heather was just a thin stalk beside the rose, but it was there.

Regarding the removal of the fern from the boutonniere...I just finished reading JF's novel Snobs, and this detail comes up in that book as well! The book takes place in the 1990s. There is an aristocratic wedding, and a character who is an usher mentions that "of course" the white carnation had been stripped of the fern that the florist had attached to it. There is no real explanation; I inferred that it was a matter of taste, and perhaps the unsophisticated florist is messing with perfection by adding the fern. (The book didn't say that; it was just my theory as I was left somewhat mystified about the "of course" and then seeing the same thing again in Downton!). If that's the case, it is consistent for Carson to want the boutonnieres at his wedding to reflect the aristocratic style.

[shipperx]

Re: the 'drab' coat (that wasn't drab). Am I the only one who laughed and thought 'of course it did' when it was a perfect color match for the hat and harmonized with the dress? I did feel for Baxter having been unilaterally volunteered to alter a coat at 10pm the night before a wedding, though.

Re: tv shows and simplifying professions, Edith editing a magazine on the fly couldn't be any more egregious than How I Met Your Mother's Ted designing a sky scraper on his own, without even an intern to help, and without structural, mechanical, plumbing and civil engineers....on a drafting table in his living room!

My boss on a magazine 10 years ago would have done the same and I would not have expected to be "asked" nor given the next day off. (Probably would have come in late though. We don't know for sure Audrey didn't get the day off.)

Same with architecture. You don't get thanks, time off, or overtime for working late, even until the wee hours. You do it. That is all. It's a deadline and you do whatever it takes. Nights, weekends, etc. That's just some industries' cultures. Edited January 20, 2016 by shipperx

[RedHawk]

Several other journalists chimed in to make this point and I agree. Late nights and deadlines are just part of the job. The only issue I have is that there should be "people," not just one secretary-- and at 7 p.m. it was more than early enough to get messages to at least a few of the skilled staff.

And speaking of skills, I know Fellowes cuts out the parts that are uninteresting, but watching Edith magically understand layout was kind of like her magically knowing how to play the flute. I don't need to see her practice or learn, but a line or two about it would go a long way. Because editing and layout are not at all the same as writing, which we've seen her do, or at least talk about. Even the observation that the article is underset by two lines is an editorial one.

I agree that her extensive skills seemed to come out of the blue, but as Soraya showed us, there is some evidence that Edith learned a bit before with Gregson. Also, when she lived in London with Marigold, she was shown working in the office, so we might assume that she asked a lot of questions and tried to learn the basics of editing and layout. Edith's always seemed eager and willing to learn.

 

ETA: My impression also was that the entire magazine did not need to be laid out, only a few outstanding articles and photo features were not finished. And Bertie DID seem to have worked on his college yearbook or newspaper. We weren't shown others who might have been in the office as well, because that would have meant additional unnecessary extras to be paid.  

Edited January 20, 2016 by RedHawk

[Quilt Fairy]

My reaction to Tom's unannounced return was that something terrible had happened in America to prompt him returning unannounced, to expect/demand to be reinstated in his former comfort as a permanent resident, member of the family ... obviously ymmv, but when someone who has embarked with fanfare on a planned great adventure returns so quickly ... well, it raises questions, none of which could be even suggested at such a moment of community happiness ... oh, and making such a public declaration -- this is my real home, you are my real family -- is incredibly manipulative, precluding any discussion.

IIRC, when Tom left at the end of last season Mary told him "Downton will always be your home". I always expected that would be key in him popping up this season. No one wanted him to leave (except maybe Carson) and he has every reason to believe he'll be welcomed back.

[Artymouse]

I assumed Tom would come back at some point this season, but I thought it would be the finale, just so Allen Leech could say a proper farewell. I'm looking forward to seeing what kinds of stories they find for him (hopefully not the angst of class discomfort and rude schoolteachers) in the last few episodes. And maybe we'll get another scene of Carson playing babysitter to Sybbie.

[helenamonster]

There was a long long long tradition of servants being paid with their much richer employers cast-off clothes.  Especially in times when clothes are truly valuable (so for example, the 18th century) and people had very few.  It is one of the reasons that people complained that English servants "gave themselves airs" or complained that they couldn't tell the servants apart from the genteel.  That time is coming to an end right about the time period of Downton, but it isn't over (see: Mrs. Hughes' available wardrobe).  It really was a huge gift -- probably more expensive than a few/several/many years of Mrs. Hughes' wages.

 

At either Mary's or Edith's wedding, can't remember which, if you look closely, you can see that Anna is wearing a dress that Mary wore in season one. It obviously had to be altered because Anna is so teeny, and even if it was "out of style," Anna probably appreciated it because it was nicer than anything she would be able to afford, and it was something special that she could wear to a big event like a wedding.

 

OK, who do I need to sleep with to ensure that Molesly ends up as a schoolteacher with a nice wife whose name is Baxter (does she even have a first name?)? He's been the butt monkey far too long.

 

Baxter's first name is Phyllis.

[sark1624]

Also in season 1 when Tom arrives as a chauffeur he starts to talk with Bates who was doing something with Lord G collars, O´Brien was hearing the conversation, Bates tell that he get some clothes but another is given to charity, Tom said something about that giving collars is not very useful and O´brien reprimended him and she said that keeping some of the clothe is one of the Valet and Lady Maid privileges; i think that she said also to reminded him about his "place" betwen the servants, because in fact O´Brien and Bates were in the top only bellow of Carson and Mrs Hughes.

Edited January 20, 2016 by sark1624

[bugsmum]

And while "No Irish Need Apply" kind of existed, not so much in Boston, where the Irish were, and are, a big population. I've done research in archival Boston papers; it was a flourishing community.

 

 

Yes, the Boston Irish population was and is large, but discrimination most definitely took place.  The Irish elected mayors of Boston and the Yankee businessmen looked down their noses.  I've read correspondence of the time and the dismissive attitude of many Yankees was pretty breathtaking.  My father was born in Cambridge (right next to Boston for those unfamiliar with the geography) in 1918, and NINA did indeed exist.  The Irish stuck together and the Yankees stuck together.  The Yankees looked down their noses at the Irish and discriminated against them.  The Irish, most of whose families had migrated during the Famine, did not like the English AT ALL.   Sybbie, as the half-English granddaughter of an Earl, would not automatically have been embraced.  And while Tom was Irish Catholic himself, he had married an enemy.  So his welcome by the Boston Irish may or may not have been a warm one.  

[KLovestoShop]

I did some looking into the history of the boutonniere and found some interesting things.  First, a fern was considered feminine so no man would want them near their flower.  And, back in their day, many men wore a single flower in their buttonhole and some suits came with hidden, built in, water containers for the flower.  Some additions to the flower were considered good luck or to ward off evil spirits or to cover bad smells====perhaps back when bathing wasn't so common.  

[SusanSunflower]

But Tom had his brother and even Great-Grandma Levinson and Cora's brother to provide entrée.   Some of the discrimination against the Irish was that they were poor and uneducated, cheap labor driving wages down ... some was because they were Roman Catholics ...  some was likely because there were so very many of them and they formed their own "members only" neighborhoods/culture 

 

Was Tom looking for work as an off-the-street employee competing with "the masses"  of other immigrants?  If Sybbie were older and had been treated badly by peers ... meh ... would she have gone to public school rather than being placed in a Catholic school ? I don't know. Having an established brother imho should have smoothed edges with the Irish ... and having a very very rich "modern" and Jewish grandmother-in-law, a priceless alternative. 

[ShadowFacts]

Wasn't something mentioned about Tom saying in a letter that he was going to start selling new cars out of the garage?  Sounds like the brothers were in business together so that could have gone sour.  As to Great-granny Levinson, I am sure she would be pleased to help little Sybbie in any way but I don't know how much influence she would have in Boston.  I thought she lived in Rhode Island.  Maybe not far away, but probably distinct communities and spheres of influence.

[iMonrey]

 

I'm glad I"m not alone in being confused as to why Thomas believes he's about to get the boot ... or why Carson seems so eager to see the back of him (considering 6 years of bad deeds unpunished) -- even the suggestion that he might have to accept being demoted to from "under butler" to "footman" at the next vacancy...

 

Thomas walked in on Carson and Robert just as Robert was saying "Honestly who has an under-butler these days?" That's how he knows his position, in particular, is likely to be eliminated. 

 

As for why Carson hates him so - Carson has wanted him gone since Season 1. In fact Thomas was on the verge of being fired at the end of Season 1 when he signed up for military service. When he returned he managed to get the position of running Downton Abbey as a military hospital and was thus technically over Carson for a short time. I think the whole episode with Jimmy was the final straw for Carson and Thomas only managed to remain on the staff because Robert wanted him on the house cricket team and felt it would be rather Machiavellian to keep him on the payroll only until the cricket match was over. 

 

So as far as Carson is concerned, the only reason Thomas has a job there is because of Robert and now Robert has expressed a willingness to eliminate the position. Much reason for Carson to celebrate.

[ShadowFacts]

 

So as far as Carson is concerned, the only reason Thomas has a job there is because of Robert and now Robert has expressed a willingness to eliminate the position. Much reason for Carson to celebrate.

 

True, but maybe Carson has forgotten that Robert may view it as bad form to sack the person who saved his daughter from the fire she accidentally set.  Maybe the position goes, but Thomas stays. That would grind Carson's gears.

[WatchrTina]

Don't forget that Thomas saved Edith from the fire (He was Johnny-on-the-spot because he was escorting Jimmy to a hook-up with his former employer) and he also was discovered by Lord Grantham, disheveled and dirty, after have spent his time off looking for Isis, who had gone missing (because he had locked her up so that he could "find" her -- only she got away.)  The whole family has a love-hate relationship with Thomas.  He's a deceitful schemer who's caused more trouble than he is worth but he has also been seen to act in a heroic manner and he has given the appearance of great loyalty to the family.  He a tricky one, our Thomas is.

Edited January 21, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Andorra]

Just a minor correction: Tom worked together with a cousin in Boston, not a brother.

 

As for Tom's reason to come back. To me it is obvious that Julian Fellows just wanted a few tears in last year's Christmas Special and the Tom fans were the poor buggers who were cast for that role. He never intended to write Tom a sensible storyline. He just pushes most of his characters around with no reason or sense. He has done so for years, why should it suddenly change?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

Just a minor correction: Tom worked together with a cousin in Boston, not a brother.

 

As for Tom's reason to come back. To me it is obvious that Julian Fellows just wanted a few tears in last year's Christmas Special and the Tom fans were the poor buggers who were cast for that role.

 

I agree. Dramatically Tom leaving and coming back in less than a half year had no reason.

 

In addition, Tom leaving for America at the same time when Rose married got Edith remark that the others were moving on and Mary can't stand it as she doesn't which provoked Mary to say how horrible she feels to be "alone with Edith". Of course, Mary has her son, her parents, Carson and Anna, so she isn't at all "alone with Edith", not to speak of the power she now holds in the estate and eligible men who just fall for her even if (or because) she treats them rudely. But sisters sniping each other was clearly a set-up for S6.

[Avaleigh]

Between that and Mary's comment in the previous episode that Carson had worked at Downton for half a century, I'm wondering when Carson had time to be a Cheerful Charlie.

It's as if Carson is reverting to the Season 1 Press Pack in which he was described as working at Downton since he was a boy. I'll be curious to see if childless Lady Rosamund does the same and suddenly her children Lavinia and Cyril show up.

Am I wrong in thinking that Rosamund's daughter was supposed to be called Imogen? 

I agree. Dramatically Tom leaving and coming back in less than a half year had no reason.

 

In addition, Tom leaving for America at the same time when Rose married got Edith remark that the others were moving on and Mary can't stand it as she doesn't which provoked Mary to say how horrible she feels to be "alone with Edith". Of course, Mary has her son, her parents, Carson and Anna, so she isn't at all "alone with Edith", not to speak of the power she now holds in the estate and eligible men who just fall for her even if (or because) she treats them rudely. But sisters sniping each other was clearly a set-up for S6.

I thought it was clear that Mary was talking about Edith being her only contemporary. She and Anna aren't going to have lunch together. Mary spent most of her time with Tom so she knew it would feel like mostly having 'only' Edith for company. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Roseanna]

I thought it was clear that Mary was talking about Edith being her only contemporary. She and Anna aren't going to have lunch together. Mary spent most of her time with Tom so she knew it would feel like mostly having 'only' Edith for company. 

 

Mary and Edith are practically never alone, unlike Mary and Tom, but they always have lunch and dinner with Robert and Cora, whereas Mary is alone with Anna every morning and night and also before dinner when Mary changes her dress. In addition, Mary can have guests and visit London as much she has pleasure.   

 

In addition, Mary has now a perfect opportunity to get rid off Edith's constant company in Downton by encouraging her passion with her magazine and thus get her to move to London. But being Mary she of course doesn't use the chance but on the contrary shows openly her envy when for once she isn't the center of attention.  

Edited January 21, 2016 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

True, but maybe Carson has forgotten that Robert may view it as bad form to sack the person who saved his daughter from the fire she accidentally set.  Maybe the position goes, but Thomas stays. That would grind Carson's gears.

 

It seems that Robert has forgotten all about the fire (or rather Fellowes has).

 

If Robert had wanted Thomas to stay, he would have said it clearly. As he spoke that having an under butler was unnecessary, he made clear to Carson that it was precisely Thomas who had as the first of servant to find a new job.  

[Avaleigh]

Mary and Edith are practically never alone, unlike Mary and Tom, but they always have lunch and dinner with Robert and Cora, whereas Mary is alone with Anna every morning and night and also before dinner when Mary changes her dress. In addition, Mary can have guests and visit London as much she has pleasure.   

 

In addition, Mary has now a perfect opportunity to get rid off Edith's constant company in Downton by encouraging her passion with her magazine and thus get her to move to London. But being Mary she of course doesn't use the chance but on the contrary shows openly her envy when for once she isn't the center of attention.  

I think you missed my point. I watch the show so I realize that Mary and Edith have lunch with their parents. I was saying that I think Mary was responding to feeling like she'd be alone with Edith as a contemporary companion with Rose and Tom gone. Yes, Rose was younger but she still fulfilled the same purpose of a contemporary for Mary. 

 

Yes, Mary has options for company, I think she was simply responding to day to day life. With Rose and Tom gone, she and Edith are the younger members of the family who aren't in the nursery. 

 

There are many times when Mary isn't the center of attention. I agree that she's frustrated with her life but I don't think she's envious of Edith for having the newspaper in the sense that she wishes she had a newspaper of her own to run. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Avaleigh

[ShadowFacts]

It seems that Robert has forgotten all about the fire (or rather Fellowes has).

 

If Robert had wanted Thomas to stay, he would have said it clearly. As he spoke that having an under butler was unnecessary, he made clear to Carson that it was precisely Thomas who had as the first of servant to find a new job.  

 

You may be right, maybe both Carson and Robert would be delighted to see Thomas go, I guess we shall see.  But if so, then I will object and say it was bad form to not take into account the fact of saving Edith.  Unless perhaps Robert is the one to recommend him into an awesome new position.  Though what I would do and what Fellowes would have Robert do are probably oceans apart. 

[Roseanna]

There are many times when Mary isn't the center of attention. I agree that she's frustrated with her life but I don't think she's envious of Edith for having the newspaper in the sense that she wishes she had a newspaper of her own to run. 

 

That's just it: Edith hasn't taken anything that Mary has or even what Mary wants but still she can't stand that for once it's her sister who is successful, confident and happy (as we usually seen Edith in London but rarely in Downton), the daughter their father praises.

[Roseanna]

Unless perhaps Robert is the one to recommend him into an awesome new position. 

 

That's just what Carson should do if he wanted to rid off Thomas.

 

The problem is that both Carson and Robert know also some of Thomas's ill deeds (f.ex. that he is a thief and that he assaulted Jimmy). They of course don't know his worst deeds (Pamuk, Bates), but they know full well that he is and always has been a troublemaker downstairs and for that reason the other servants don't like nor respect him, so it wouldn't be honest of them to recommend him to elsewhere.

[iMonrey]

To be fair to Robert, it may well be that he'd hesitate to outright fire Thomas given his loyalty to the family. Which may be why Carson approached Robert with the news that the "problem with Thomas" may well resolve itself, if he finds another job elsewhere. And Carson is giving Thomas all kinds of time off to go on interviews. So they seem to be hoping he'll just quit and move on elsewhere so they don't have to fire him. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

The fact is that both Bates and Carson have expressed interest in leaving service and opening hotels or bed and breakfast-type inns. Which would leave Downton without a butler and Robert without a valet. Robert has expressed discomfort in the past with Thomas filling in as valet so maybe he'd hesitate to replace Bates with Thomas, but I'm kind of puzzled why Carson hasn't mentioned to Robert that he is looking into started some kind of hotel with Mrs. Hughes. Does he intend to run it on the side while he continues to work as their butler? Otherwise, it seems to me there are two prominent job openings imminent at the Abbey. (In fact it was Carson's idea to open such a place with Mrs. Hughes that instigated the whole marriage proposal in the first place; why don't more people know about this?)

[Amethyst]

It seems that Robert has forgotten all about the fire (or rather Fellowes has).

 

If Robert had wanted Thomas to stay, he would have said it clearly. As he spoke that having an under butler was unnecessary, he made clear to Carson that it was precisely Thomas who had as the first of servant to find a new job.  

 

IA with this and IMonrey's post above.  Carson's wanted Thomas gone since the end of s1.  I don't think Robert harbors the same animosity towards Thomas, but I can imagine him deferring to Carson with the final decision.  They don't need an underbutler anymore, and it's not like Carson will fight to keep Thomas around.  

 

Plus, the timeline of the show is so wonky so the stuff with Thomas saving Edith and Isis probably feels like a long time ago to them, and not enough to warrant paying Thomas' wages for a position that is no longer necessary.  Furthermore, Robert probably thinks he's being charitable enough by not firing Thomas outright and letting him stay on until he finds other employment.

 

I don't really think Carson hates Thomas at this point (he is acting like it though) he just sees Thomas as a pain-in-the-ass who's more trouble than he's worth.  

[ShadowFacts]

That's just what Carson should do if he wanted to rid off Thomas.

 

The problem is that both Carson and Robert know also some of Thomas's ill deeds (f.ex. that he is a thief and that he assaulted Jimmy). They of course don't know his worst deeds (Pamuk, Bates), but they know full well that he is and always has been a troublemaker downstairs and for that reason the other servants don't like nor respect him, so it wouldn't be honest of them to recommend him to elsewhere.

 

I don't know if this belongs in the Thomas thread, I'll move it there if I should.  Robert knows of some of Thomas' crap he's pulled, though not all, and doesn't necessarily know all of the better things he's done.  But his last known misdeed was quite a few years ago, and saving Edith was more recent.  As to being a thief, he has been kept in the Grantham employ for many years after that without further incident.  If Robert or Carson couldn't recommend him for another job, then Cora shouldn't be able to recommend Baxter, either.  On reflection I'd rather Thomas find his own fresh start without help, but realistically, would he get any job without a recommendation from his employer of the past, what, 12 years? 

[fastiller]

I enjoyed Edith's stepping up and putting out the magazine, and Bertie seems almost too good to be true. Since he's interested in Edith, that probably means he's secretly crazy, secretly married, secretly impotent, or after her money. I hope I'm wrong, because I liked their scenes together, and despite Edith's appalling behavior toward the Drewes, she is overdue for some happiness.

 

Or all four!

[lucindabelle]

Wasn't something mentioned about Tom saying in a letter that he was going to start selling new cars out of the garage?  Sounds like the brothers were in business together so that could have gone sour.  As to Great-granny Levinson, I am sure she would be pleased to help little Sybbie in any way but I don't know how much influence she would have in Boston.  I thought she lived in Rhode Island.  Maybe not far away, but probably distinct communities and spheres of influence.

 

The Irish and the Jews did not historically get along, except on Tin Pan Alley. ("If it wasn't for the Irish and the Jews")

My own uncle (Jewish) led a Jewish gang against the Irish growing up in Boston in the 20s and 30s.

So that connection would be exotic but given that and the English connection it wouldn't exactly endear him to the Irish there.

otoh, he was kind of a radical in Ireland which should have.

 

Aw Hell. We all know he just came bck cuz Fellowes wants to lick the toes of the Crawleys again.

[SusanSunflower]

Tom has already "trancended" his roots several times ... and America is that "great melting pot" where money buys respectability and tolerance, even for (some) Jews ... in some places, within limits and covenants ... 

Grandma Levinson would probably love to show Cora how open-minded and generous Americans can be ... unlike the class-bound stuffy stuffy British ... Alas, I have no memory of Levinson's opinon of Tom+Sybil union ... but I think she'd pull out all stops to help a grandchild ... on the other hand, we have had no reassurances wrt Tom's possible Irish antisemitism. 

[Avaleigh]

That's just it: Edith hasn't taken anything that Mary has or even what Mary wants but still she can't stand that for once it's her sister who is successful, confident and happy (as we usually seen Edith in London but rarely in Downton), the daughter their father praises.

I disagree that this is what it is with Mary. I don't think she's seeing signs that Edith is confident and successful. Quite the contrary, when she was talking with Anna she seemed to think that Edith was being a ninny about the issue with her editor and wondered why Edith didn't just fire his ass. Mary hears Edith complaining about running the paper.

I think it's Edith's personality that irritates Mary. I don't think Mary is jealous that Edith has the paper or has reason to think that Edith is especially happy at present.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Hecate7]

Well, he left it to her as a property.

I work at a newspaper and know firsthand our owners are neither editors nor journalists. So I don't think that point really works at all. Publishers don't need to have layout skills.

 

i do remember that scene but looking at a page just doesn't register to me the same way as understanding layout. I worked at the paper for years before I became a section editor and although I had a page I always had to draw still had to take a test.

But I guess this is all we're getting.

 

I think you're forgetting that journalism really wasn't a major in most colleges yet, or even offered as a class, actually. Edith is the type who would have worked on the school paper and the yearbook, thought. Editing, layout, etc...really were jobs people walked into with no experience at all in those days. People got degrees in law, or English. They didn't specialize the way we do today. Nobody took a test. They just got fired if they did it wrong. Even in my mother's generation you just walked in off the street and said you wanted the job--there really weren't a lot of people running around the way there are now, with MAs in journalism or a certification in typesetting and layout or a degree in commercial art.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Hecate7

[lucindabelle]

I think you're forgetting that journalism really wasn't a major in most colleges yet, or even offered as a class, actually. Edith is the type who would have worked on the school paper and the yearbook, thought. Editing, layout, etc...really were jobs people walked into with no experience at all in those days. People got degrees in law, or English. They didn't specialize the way we do today. Nobody took a test. They just got fired if they did it wrong. Even in my mother's generation you just walked in off the street and said you wanted the job--there really weren't a lot of people running around the way there are now, with MAs in journalism or a certification in typesetting and layout or a degree in commercial art.

 

I'm not forgetting that at all.

My point is Edith DIDN'T work on a school paper. She didn't go to school! There didn't used to be majors in theater either, doesn't mean you walk off the street and are a production stage manager, even then.

 

Of COURSE they took tests. I don't mean academic tests. I mean the editor gives you a dummy and says lay out the page. They are testing you professionally. No different than an audition.

 

I didn't go to J-school either and got all my skills on the job. But Edith's only skill we've ever been shown is writing, and yes, one pic of her standing over Gregson's shoulder. At no time, ever, did major magazines hire people with zero skills. You can get skills on the job but you don't just say hey hire me and get hired.

[Roseanna]

I disagree that this is what it is with Mary. I don't think she's seeing signs that Edith confident and successful. Quite the contrary, when she was talking with Anna she seemed to think that Edith was being a ninny about the issue with her editor and wondered why Edith didn't just fire his ass. Mary hears Edith complaining about running the paper.

I think it's Edith's personality that irritates Mary. I don't think Mary is jealous that Edith has the paper or has reason to think that Edith is especially happy at present.

 

Well, Edith has now fired her editor. Most people would admit that they judged her too early and she has more guts than they believed her to possess. Or at least they would see that even if they don't value her, some other people (Robert) do. But Mary is stuck to her old beliefs.

 

When somebody is annoyed by the other's personality,  she is not at peace with herself.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, they are not children sharing a bedroom ... even if Mary acts as though they are and as if Edith were some interloper ... stealing her spotlight ... She acts as if she quietly resents the air Edith breathes... but she'd never admit to begrudging her, that might suggest she felt threatened or -- worse -- cared ... and we wonder why she can't find a "suitable" husband ... 

Edited January 21, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[meep.meep]

As for Tom traveling back, he looked prosperous, so perhaps he made a decent go at the automobile/truck business and then when he realized he wanted to return to Downton, his brother bought him out. 

 

Or he's one step ahead of The Law, again, and spent his last shilling on 2nd-class tickets.

 

Maybe he just couldn't figure out how to drive on the other side of the road.....

 

I thought it was pretty crappy of him to say that his "real" family was at Downton when he has actual family members to whom he is actually related.

[Avaleigh]

Well, Edith has now fired her editor. Most people would admit that they judged her too early and she has more guts than they believed her to possess. Or at least they would see that even if they don't value her, some other people (Robert) do. But Mary is stuck to her old beliefs.

When somebody is annoyed by the other's personality, she is not at peace with herself.

It's obvious that Mary isn't at peace with herself, I agree. Where I disagree is the idea that Mary can't stand Edith being "successful" and "confident". What Mary saw was Edith whining, complaining, unsure of herself, etc. and she commented. Her observations didn't sound like a woman who was resenting her sister's so-called happiness. I thought she sounded closer to bored than spitetful.

I was expecting more from Edith now that she's running the magazine but save the fun scene with Bertie it's mostly been Edith complaining about being upset with her editor.

Bertie's presence is a breath of fresh air because he makes Edith seem less sad and when she's with him she doesn't seem like she in her usual mode where she wants people to feel sorry for her. It's too bad that she has to lie to him right out of the gate.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

[ShadowFacts]

 

I thought it was pretty crappy of him to say that his "real" family was at Downton when he has actual family members to whom he is actually related.

 

Which might be an indication of a falling out with whomever he spent time with in Boston, but not the entire family I wouldn't think.  Unless they all turned on Tom on account of his connections to the Crawleys? 

[RedHawk]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Robert asking Cora if she thought Mary was still unaware that Marigold was Edith's child. He was wondering aloud how Mary could have failed to figure it out, and Cora, echoing several PTV posters, said something like, "Oh, she wouldn't think Edith capable." !!!

Edited January 22, 2016 by RedHawk

[TheGreenKnight]

I disagree that this is what it is with Mary. I don't think she's seeing signs that Edith is confident and successful. Quite the contrary, when she was talking with Anna she seemed to think that Edith was being a ninny about the issue with her editor and wondered why Edith didn't just fire his ass. Mary hears Edith complaining about running the paper.

I think this is the way Mary rationalizes it to herself and frames it to other people when she speaks of Edith, but what we actually see of her comments and facial expressions, it's clearly no more than childish jealousy. She enters Edith's conversations with other people in order to assert her dominance over Edith by correcting her or diminishing her. I think Mary is actually incapable of seeing Edith as successful or confident in any situation because she sees Edith as naturally inferior to herself. She's too narcissistic to see anything but what she wants to see.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I'm not forgetting that at all.

My point is Edith DIDN'T work on a school paper. She didn't go to school! There didn't used to be majors in theater either, doesn't mean you walk off the street and are a production stage manager, even then.

 

Of COURSE they took tests. I don't mean academic tests. I mean the editor gives you a dummy and says lay out the page. They are testing you professionally. No different than an audition.

 

I didn't go to J-school either and got all my skills on the job. But Edith's only skill we've ever been shown is writing, and yes, one pic of her standing over Gregson's shoulder. At no time, ever, did major magazines hire people with zero skills. You can get skills on the job but you don't just say hey hire me and get hired.

I also spent a career in publishing. It only seems like it went back to 1925.

Edith did not start out that evening from step one of designing the issue, laying it all out, and writing all the copy--the editor she fired had pages for her approval before sending them to the printer, who I imagine was setting type from her copy and creating plates according to the layout. She and Audrey and Bertie and whoever else was there that night were working within an existing layout and pretty much swapping in replacement copy and photos. Their results may not have been perfect, but they also had at least one proof stage (she showed them to her family) to refine their work--not cheap at that stage but possible. I thought it was as believable as most other stuff in this show.

[sark1624]

Regarding Edith with the magazine we must remember that before owning the magazine Gregson gave her administration powers over the magazine, so she has been doing that work for 2 o 3 years now and also writes her column. We must remember that this is a show, they cant show us Edith learning everything or brashing her teeths. The same critics to Edith and her magazine could be done to Mary or Tom, being a estate manager is a very serious job, many of those jobs were given to some distant relatives (like Bertie Pelham who is the 3° cousin of Lord Hexham, or Tom the son in Law of Lord G), but the work of estate agent is very also very complex (collect the payments of tenants, evict them if is necessary, watch the farming, pay the taxes, etc), if we remember the only experience that Tom had was helping his uncle with his sheep farm in ireland, and Mary only in season 6 started to work as a agent. 

[helenamonster]

To be fair to Robert, it may well be that he'd hesitate to outright fire Thomas given his loyalty to the family. Which may be why Carson approached Robert with the news that the "problem with Thomas" may well resolve itself, if he finds another job elsewhere. And Carson is giving Thomas all kinds of time off to go on interviews. So they seem to be hoping he'll just quit and move on elsewhere so they don't have to fire him. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

I think Robert or Carson said as much when they were talking about the situation. They'd prefer for Thomas to just leave of his own accord then have to go through the nasty business of firing him. I can understand their worries. It is Thomas, after all. Who knows what kind of last-minute revenge he'd pull on his way out the door if he was fired with nothing to fall back on?

 

The Irish and the Jews did not historically get along, except on Tin Pan Alley. ("If it wasn't for the Irish and the Jews")

My own uncle (Jewish) led a Jewish gang against the Irish growing up in Boston in the 20s and 30s.

So that connection would be exotic but given that and the English connection it wouldn't exactly endear him to the Irish there.

otoh, he was kind of a radical in Ireland which should have.

 

Martha and Harold aren't Jewish, though, only Cora's father was and Martha never converted. I don't think she travels in "Jewish" circles.

 

It would have been an interesting development if Martha had reached out to Tom. I can't remember any specific interactions they had (if they had any at all), but I feel like I remember her being somewhat fond of him. At the very least I don't think she hated that Sybil ran off with the Irish chauffeur. And whatever her feelings about Tom, I think she'd at least try to help out Sybbie, who is her great-granddaughter.

[SusanSunflower]

I would assume that Martha would have been cheering Sybil on ... just to spite her stuck-up aristocratic daughter ... laughing, not in mean way.  I'm just suggesting that if Boston was not comfortable or promising, it wasn't Tom's only choice, his cousins were not his only family in America and the Levinsons had plenty of money and connections to be "helpful" 

[sark1624]

Martha several times mocked the "way of life" of the Crawleys, she knew that kind of life was over, for that reason i found extremely stupid that Mary and Violet throw a "house party" with "important guests" to convice her about the "utility" of Downton and for that she can give them more money. I bet that a tour for the grounds, new plans of modernization in the farming process would have been better; that´s why i never understood the thinking of some followers about Mary being "modern", because i always had the feeling that she is more concerned about Downton as a way of life that a entrepreneurship (like the estates like Chatsworth or even Brancaster where they rented the growse shooting), only now i can feel that they are understanding that. 

 

I loved the frase that she threw to Violet when she told her about seein in the mirror a modern woman that her world is getting closer and Violet´s going further everyday. 

 

I didnt think that she was mocking of about Tom or Sybil, i think that she genuily believed that in the end is about brains, her husband was a self made man, and she knew about the lack of competence for the business of the Crawles, (her husband gave the money with the entail), she understood inmediatily that they wanted money from her, etc. 

[lucindabelle]

In the end though Martha didn't have any money anyways s it wouldn't have mattered,

Yes I kno were to infer edith learned while we weren't looking but the results to me, was to cheapen what is in fact a highly skilled profession and suggest anybody with drive and gumption can do it.

Fairooint bout the magical estate management and if I had skills in that area Idrobably mind that too.

[Roseanna]

In the end though Martha didn't have any money anyways s it wouldn't have mattered,

 

It did matter for she understood that it was a waste to give money to someone (Robert) who had just showed himself to be a fool in business (and who would have done it again, if Matthew didn't prevent him). And Mary was shown to be not at all practical but self-centered, greedy and shallow.  

Edited January 22, 2016 by Roseanna