S04.E08: Legends Of Yesterday (2)

[dtissagirl]

Since I work through my rage by mocking, I have a very important question:

 

Now that Oliver is one of those jerkwads who has a secret family stashed in another city hidden from his friends and family and girlfriend, what kind of excuse weekend trips out of Star City will he come up with to go visit William?
 

[bijoux]

@ottoDbusdriver, on the whole? I have no idea. I guess the wings and resurrection came because Kendra (I don't know how her original name is supposed to be spelled) prayed to Horus moments before their deaths.

 

While we're on questions, where did present Barry go once future Barry showed up? I mean he couldn't have just poofed into thin air, right? Did he just decide to hell with it all once he saw his future self speed by and went to mountain resort to chill?

[nksarmi]

It reminded me of Diggle telling Oliver he doesn't trust.

Hahahaha we just needed Felicity to say "you never loved me". Icing on the cake.

Well, she did pull the "if you loved me card" which is almost as bad.  No, I refuse to believe that THAT was true Felicity in that scene. She was being selfish, she wasn't acting like she cared about him, oh and she was doing all of this right before they had to go fight a 4,000 year old badass immortal. 

 

No Felicity would have waited until after the fight and while she might have been upset when she confronted him, she is smart enough to realize he just found out and she probably would have had more questions than anger.  Heck, Felicity probably wouldn't have tested him to see if he'd lie anyway - she'd just hit him with "I know, now you need to explain."

 

In short, that scene just would not have happened at that moment in time.

 

Now, fast forward six months with Oliver hiding it from her and sneaking off to see the kid behind her back and it might happen like that - but it felt completely wrong under those circumstances.

 

Oh and I really thought they were going to leave it as he decided to stay away from the kid and not confront the mom about it and then somehow it comes out in the mayoral campaign.  Which for the record, if baby momma knew he was running for mayor, she should know that a reporter might uncover that he knocked a girl up in college and that said girl now has a kid that fits that timeframe and she might need to start figuring out how to deal with that instead of the whole "no one knows, you are just a friend of mommy" routine.

 

And this kid is 9!  Unless he is dumber than bricks, he has already eavesdropped on Oliver and his mom's conversation and/or figured out that Oliver is either a) his dad or b) Mommy's new boyfriend. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by nksarmi

[bijoux]

Here's another thing I found puzzling. How exactly did Oliver being distracted make them originally lose to Savage? I don't remember a particular turning point that cost them everything because he was having an existential crisis during the fight.

 

And while Barry can be great with Oliver (when he's not calling him Ollie, my God, Larry!), him using the I-grew-up-without-a-dad card really made me want for someone else who was in the same boat get the chance to throw her two cents in. Although... Crap, I hate how I'm seeing this now, maybe that comment actually did make Oliver think of Felicity and think that she would see him being a part of William's life as a good thing. So in his strange Oliver-logic he's actually listening to her without getting her input. I don't know. It's a mess.

[thegirlsleuth]

Since I work through my rage by mocking, I have a very important question:

 

Now that Oliver is one of those jerkwads who has a secret family stashed in another city hidden from his friends and family and girlfriend, what kind of excuse weekend trips out of Star City will he come up with to go visit William?

 

 

How about he accidentally left a stew cooking in Barry's slow cooker and has to go get it?

 

Oh, and Oliver's political strategist is going to LOVE the secret love child once it comes out.

[Guest]

And while Barry can be great with Oliver (when he's not calling him Ollie, my God, Larry!), him using the I-grew-up-without-a-dad card really made me want for someone else who was in the same boat get the chance to throw her two cents in. Although... Crap, I hate how I'm seeing this now, maybe that comment actually did make Oliver think of Felicity and think that she would see him being a part of William's life as a good thing. So in his strange Oliver-logic he's actually listening to her without getting her input. I don't know. It's a mess.

 

That kind of bugged me though because he didn't exactly grow up without a father. He had Joe around. Admittedly he's not his dad but he's as close to it as possible. He had a father figure there for him. If anyone should pull the 'I grew up without a dad' card it's Felicity. Which is why the way they chose to handle this makes no sense at all. 

 

It would've been better if Oliver told Felicity he thought he had a son but was unsure if he wanted to get involved and then Felicity could give her input and maybe get a bit mad or whatever.

 

Whhhhyyyyyyyy do they always choose the dumbest way to handle things?! WHY.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

I kinda hope Oliver is so dumb, so so so dumb, that he forgets to tell Barry to hide the kid from Felicity, and Barry calls Felicity all "are you okay with all of this?" and ruins everything for Oliver.

Edited December 3, 2015 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

I kinda hope Oliver is so dumb, so so so dumb, that he forgets to tell Barry to hide the kid from Felicity, and Barry calls Felicity all "are you okay with all of this?" and ruins everything for Oliver.

Ahaha. That would be hilariously mean towards Oliver.

 

I can only hope he folds like a cheap suit at the beginning of the next episode. But then again, that would make sense when not much of what's going on right now makes sense to me. If Oliver actually manages to keep a secret from Felicity, well then I just don't know anything anymore. Sure, I could sort of buy it last year since he pushed her away, so he wasn't constantly under her scrutiny and having her zoom in on him when her spidey senses tingle. But now he's living with her! And this is actually the weird thing for me. Oliver is all about the consequences. So much so that he has taken on consequences for the actions of others in the past. How exactly does he imagine this folding out? Yes, last year was exasperating, but dumb as it was, he foresaw himself dying and accepted that. I have no earthly idea what he sees here.

[Password]

What's strange to me is how angry I am about it. This exact thing happened last year with Malcolm Merlyn but I literally just hand waved it because it was contrived plottiness.

Now I am just so angry at Oliver. 3 years to learn the same lesson. 3 years where bad things happened because of secrets and he STILL DOESN'T GET IT.

Someone on tumblr pointed out that baby mama basically told Oliver to choose between Felicity and his kid. And he chose his kid.

[cambridgeguy]

 

I hope that kid never finds that un-cashed check. How pissed would you be if your mom kept you from your dad and A MILLION DOLLARS. I would resent her every workday of my life.

A million dollars isn't really "set for life" money unless you plan on dying early.  It would be funny if the kid tells his mom that she should have bargained for more.

 

Barry and Oliver seem to like and trust each other a lot more than the various love interests they've had (Barry in particular).  I guess Barry really likes the idea of having an older brother type. 

 

I can see Oliver doing what he did the first time but Barry literally saw the future, told him things got screwed up because of it, and he went ahead and did the exact same thing.  If Oliver really does love Felicity then being dumped by her has to rank up there as a worst case scenario.

[Guest]

The thing is Felicity knew something was up at the end there. When he was cuddling up to her like he didn't have care in the world, she had this suspicious look on her face for a second. She knows something isn't right. So this seems like something that might fester in the back of her mind and every time Oliver goes off to CC to see his son and throws a lie at her, she'll wonder.

 

I'd rather he told her himself but Oliver's not allowed to grow much at all around episodes 9-15.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Guest

[maczero]

I don't watch Arrow, but I just had to come express my frustration about the Oliver's kid storyline.  The whole "I'm the mother -- I decide what kind of relationship you'll have with your child" crap is such nonsense. That doesn't have to be how that works and I hate that tv shows keep saying it is. Surely there's a court around so Oliver can go establish paternity and get some access to his kid. But then you wouldn't have any drama with Felicity without that stupid storyline.

Sure, Ollie can pursue this legally but I'd wager he doesn't want to.  His life is dangerous.  Letting the world know he has a kid, means that he'll be putting Connor's life in jeopardy.  Another benefit is no child support payments. lol.

 

In any case, I thought both crossover eps were good.  I wasn't feeling Vandal Savage initially.  I've grown accustomed to seeing him as a big bruiser.  However, the more mystical take on the character is starting to grow on me.  I like how he uses speed and subterfuge when fighting.  Almost made me believe that he was a credible threat to Barry.  Seeing the cast incinerated was shocking.

[apinknightmare]

Someone on tumblr pointed out that baby mama basically told Oliver to choose between Felicity and his kid. And he chose his kid.

 

A good parent should always choose the welfare of their kid, though. But the thing is that he doesn't *have* to choose the kid over Felicity. The mother is asking him to keep a secret for absolutely no reason. He is keeping it for no reason. I suppose there could be some "honorability" drawn out of that decision of you dig really super deep enough to find it, and Oliver wants to keep his promise, but the woman is asking Oliver to basically risk his personal relationships in order to see his son, which is something he has a right to do without all that. It's an empty threat, and Oliver is falling for it. 

[nksarmi]

I'd rather Oliver had decided for various reasons that he just wouldn't confront the mom in the new timeline - Darhk, our lives are crazy, he could be used against me, etc... - so he justifies not telling Felicity because he isn't going to pursue it.  Then when it does come out via reporter, Darhk, whatever - he could have said "Yes I found out a few months ago but I decided to not even tell his mom I knew and I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to think I was like your dad" or something else that would have felt more organic to the characters. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by nksarmi

[Password]

I agree choosing your kid should be a priority, but I refuse to accept that as a reason for not telling Felicity. There's no honour in unnecessarily ruining your own life. The writing is horrible.

[maczero]

A million dollars isn't really "set for life" money unless you plan on dying early. 

I'd say it is.  Investing it wisely and living frugally and I can see myself not having to work for the rest of my life. 

[apinknightmare]

A million dollars isn't really "set for life" money unless you plan on dying early.  It would be funny if the kid tells his mom that she should have bargained for more.

 

 

It was actually two million dollars. Moira gave her the one million to leave, and promised her another million once she got to Central City. So, either the writers forgot about that (likely), she actually kept a million and lied to Oliver about it (I can see her doing this because she seems like an asshole) or Moira has the worst follow-up ever. 

[bijoux]

It was actually two million dollars. Moira gave her the one million to leave, and promised her another million once she got to Central City. So, either the writers forgot about that (likely), she actually kept a million and lied to Oliver about it (I can see her doing this because she seems like an asshole) or Moira has the worst follow-up ever. 

I was wondering about that as well as I remembered it as two million. And that is a pretty nice house she and William are living in. I mean, if we go by the fact that she had him at about 20 while she was still a college student or drop-out. I don't know, I'm just ready for there to be more to this storyline and for it to somehow connect to the overall story. Have her be a villain or William a meta, and maybe that being one of the reasons he worships Flash, because he can relate to him. Also, it's striking me as odd her calling him William instead of Will. Is she overcorrecting for "Ollie"? Although I don't remember hearing her call him anything but Oliver.

[Guest]

Oh, Samantha is definitely an asshole. She didn't cash the check which means Moira really had no hold over her and she still chose to lie and deprive Oliver of the chance to know his child.

 

It's still crazy to me that he would lie to the woman he loves because the other woman who lied to him for nine years told him to. Such bullshit.

[apinknightmare]

The first time around I missed this (during all of the idiotic demands of secret-keeping), but Samantha told Oliver that William could never know Oliver was his father. So, Oliver is doing all of this with the intention of never acting like or being known as William's father, just "Mommy's friend Oliver"? So he can stop by every once-in-a-while and play and catch up on his life without really being involved in it? 

 

Like, the whole thing just got a thousand times more stupid if that's the case. It also makes me understand how Oliver (while being a monumental moron, like I am not discounting that) might think he can keep it a secret, especially if he thinks Felicity would break up with him over it (thanks for that insight, Barry!), since he's not intending on actually being the boy's father in a substantive way. 

 

WHICH, AGAIN...ALL OF THIS IS SO STUPID

Oh, Samantha is definitely an asshole. She didn't cash the check which means Moira really had no hold over her and she still chose to lie and deprive Oliver of the chance to know his child.

 

It's still crazy to me that he would lie to the woman he loves because the other woman who lied to him for nine years told him to. Such bullshit.

 

Yeah, I think she made it pretty clear that SHE was the one who didn't want Oliver in the kid's life. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[bethy]

The thing is, I can't be mad at Oliver. Because the stupid isn't his fault. It's the writers fault. I actually feel sorry for the poor guy to be at the mercy of a bunch of hacks.

And if that's not a sign of poor writing - that you've got watchers who sympathize with a character you've screwed over - I don't know what is.

[bmoore4026]

Yeah, I tuned out of this one half way through.  Stupid Hawkpeople fuck shit up for everybody.  Sorry, Kendra.

[Menrva]

I'm so, so disappointed to hear how bad this episode was. I haven't watched it yet and I don't know if I can make it through without wanting to scream. Don't think I ought to subject my kids to this level of stupidity - if I wanted them to watch something stupid, there's always Teen Titans Go! Bleah.

 

Fuck you, writers. The monkeys flinging poo at the zoo have more subtlety and nuance and maturity.

[hogwash]

On a shallow(?) note, if the wedding/marriage actually happens, they're setting it up pretty well. Getting the big obstacles (the kid, Felicity seemingly not being all in, Felicity getting seriously injured, Felicity's abandonment issues, Oliver's dark/murdery side) out of the way in quick order.

Wrote this a while ago in the spoiler thread but apparently I forgot the biggest obstacle. I hate how they did it but it had happen eventually. Oliver is an emotionally constipated idiot/liar who will immediately falls back on old habits when threatened. 6+ months is not enough time to cure 4+ years of this kind of thinking/PTSD.

 

Curse you, time travel shenanigans for forcing Barry to be super vague. He literally tells Oliver "Felicity dumps you after she finds out about the kid then your impaired judgment gets everyone killed." I can't even get mad at Barry (Oliver, on the other hand...) because he barely heard the fight so what he tells Oliver is actually true from his perspective. Be a better eavesdropper, Barry. 

[Password]

I really dislike the time travelling.

I ended up preferring the 1st storyline because at least Felicity knew about William. And they DIED.

[apinknightmare]

Wrote this a while ago in the spoiler thread but apparently I forgot the biggest obstacle. I hate how they did it but it had happen eventually. Oliver is an emotionally constipated idiot/liar who will immediately falls back on old habits when threatened. 6+ months is not enough time to cure 4+ years of this kind of thinking/PTSD.

 

I wasn't counting on his relationship with Felicity having changed his mindset, just hoped that the past four years of secrets and lies catching up with him in terrible, awful ways EVERY. DAMN. TIME. would've clued him in that maybe it's time to stop dealing with things that way. 

 

But nah. We don't learn, apparently.

[tv echo]

Worst episode of the season.  Poorly conceived (ridiculous storylines).  Poorly written (some lines made no sense whatsoever). Poorly executed (despite the expensive special effects).  LoT portions were poorly acted (toss-up between FH, CR, CV and CC for worst actor).  Flashbacks were laughably bad.  Oliver was an idiot (again).

 

P.S.  When Oliver agreed to Samantha's terms (the second time around), I was desperately hoping that he was wearing a comm so that Felicity could overhear their entire conversation.  Therefore, he wouldn't be technically telling anyone.

 

P.P.S.  If this was the EPs testing out Samantha as a potential future love interest for Oliver, this episode is not going to make her popular with fans.

Edited December 3, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

P.P.S.  If this was the EPs testing out Samantha as a potential future love interest for Oliver, this episode is not going to make her popular with fans.

 

Not a chance they were doing that here. 

[Chasity]

Worst episode of the season.  Poorly conceived (ridiculous storylines).  Poorly written (some lines made no sense whatsoever). Poorly executed (despite the expensive special effects).  LoT portions were poorly acted (toss-up between FH, CR, CV and CC for worst actor).  Flashbacks were laughably bad.  Oliver was an idiot (again).

 

P.S.  When Oliver agreed to Samantha's terms (the second time around), I was desperately hoping that he was wearing a comm so that Felicity could overhear their entire conversation.  Therefore, he wouldn't be technically telling anyone.

 

P.P.S.  If this was the EPs testing out Samantha as a potential future love interest for Oliver, this episode is not going to make her popular with fans.

I was thinking the same thing during his 2nd talk with Samantha. That they would show Oliver leaving and Felicity would be right outside.

 

This episode definitely didn't make her popular with me. I almost hate her as much as Laurel. 

[hogwash]

I wasn't counting on his relationship with Felicity having changed his mindset, just hoped that the past four years of secrets and lies catching up with him in terrible, awful ways EVERY. DAMN. TIME. would've clued him in that maybe it's time to stop dealing with things that way. 

 

But nah. We don't learn, apparently.

 

True but Oliver only starts learning these lessons by the 19th episode of the season. I think what Barry said is what really fucked him.  

[benteen]

I felt like it was insult to injury that Oliver

 

1) Was told by Baby Mama that he can't see William unless he promises to not tell anyone

2) William's room was full of Flash posters.  Harsh show...just harsh...

 

In fairness, in this world it’s probably healthier for a kid to be a fan of The Flash than an often violent vigilante like The Arrow.  Hey, the kid doesn’t know that Barry thought it was acceptable to risk the destruction of the entire universe because he missed his mommy.

 

Like I said, I had no issue with Oliver not immediately telling Felicity anything when he first saw Samantha and William.  Get that sort of thing confirmed first before you tell anyone and I can see it being an embarrassing reminder of how Oliver used to be.  I wouldn’t even have minded if he told Felicity “I don’t want to talk about it right now” after he met with Samantha.  But the bullshit Dhark story was unacceptable and he was completely wrong to not tell her when they returned to Star City.  Just tell the damn truth and make her promise not to say anything.

 

About Samantha, I don’t like her at all and think she’s a hypocrite.  If she suspects Oliver is the Arrow, I can completely understand her not wanting Oliver near the kid because that will open up William to an endless amount of threats.  Even without knowledge of the Arrow, you still have the fact that Oliver’s mother was killed by Deathstroke and Oliver is running for Mayor, which would bring a lot of media scrutiny into their lives.  Oliver should realize that publicly announcing that William is his kid is unacceptable at this time due to the number of his enemies who would be eager to exploit this.  Damian Dhark threatened Oliver during a campaign event.

Edited December 3, 2015 by benteen

[Pyramid]

What an utter pile of bollocks. Fake angst because apparently the writers are incapable of writing a mature relationship for more than three episodes.

Just so bored with all the fake drama.

The show was so much better when it was grounded but it had to live in the same universe as flash so they screw over the parent show. Now with the LOT launching they're kicking it in the clacker-sack while it's down.

[apinknightmare]

In fairness, in this world it’s probably healthier for a kid to be a fan of The Flash than an often violent vigilante like The Arrow.  Hey, the kid doesn’t

About Samantha, I don’t like her at all and think she’s a hypocrite. 

 

She has every reason to be wary of letting Oliver into her son's life. She got pregnant when he was a douche, everything she's learned about his life is straight-up tragedy. He doesn't make good decisions - she must've read about him singing over his family's company. Like, she isn't in the wrong for being wary of him at all. But he has legal recourse, and she knows he knows he has a son. It would've made sense to me if she was like, I'll let you meet him now, let's see how it goes, can you please not let him know you're his father, and please keep this quiet until we figure out how to proceed? 

 

She lost me by demanding complete secrecy from any and everyone for always, and by bringing up all the ways in which he's horrible and how she's wary and then letting Oliver spend unsupervised time with the kid the very first time he ever meets him. Especially when she just flat-out refused to ever let Oliver tell William he was his father, so...she's basically demanding Oliver lie in exchange for a few visits with the kid with Oliver posing as her friend. If I wasn't aware that the actual legal system existed, maybe I'd buy it?

Edited December 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I don't have this emotional issue that yous have with the story. I'm not angry, upset, repulsed, I don't think Olicity is over for good, I'm not hoping Olicity is over for good. I really don't feel much of anything.

My main issue/concern is more about the writing/EP's. They just can't seem to help themselves when it comes to relationships. Whenever they are faced with organic vs inorganic storytelling they go for the cheap/easy/quick route. So instead of having Olicity angst for logical reasons they went for the clichéd secrets and lies.

[Primetimer]

This episode has it all! Action! Spin-offs! Costumes! Seriously, a lot of costumes.

Read the story

[FurryFury]

The babymama plot reminded me of why I used to hate Oliver so much (I guess I'm back to this now). Such a cringeworthy plot. I remember it made me hate Luke and Luke/Lorelai on Gilmore Girls, I hope for Olicity shippers' sake it will be dealt with in a better way.

 

I did, for some reason, like Hawkman. He just gives this entertaining dickish vibe that I love without being a full-on dick.

 

(BTW, is there a chance that William is the one in the grave? I don't read the board often, so the idea is probably already out there).

Edited December 3, 2015 by FurryFury

[KirkB]

First of all, I am really glad Oliver/Felicity isn't the primary reason I watch this show, because I would be really pissed right now. They're deliberately and rather crudely sabotaging the relationship they spent all this time setting up, just so they can have tension and then the big romantic reunion later on. Which is fine if it's done right but this is not the way.

 

And I can't add anything to the baby mamma drama discussion here, so I'm just moving on.

 

I'm a bit confused by the Hawks/Savage connection, which I imagine LoT will expand on. The Vandal Savage I am familiar with is WAY older than Egypt, this one seems to be FROM Egypt, even though he and Kufu clearly...well, aren't remotely Egyptian. Shiera kind of gets a pass in that regard. But right before they die Kufu and Shiera pray to Horus, I think it was Horus anyway, and he is apparently is the one who binds their souls and gives them wings. Fine. So where does Savage fit in? How does he have immortality connected to their reincarnations?

 

To the person who asked about Barry's time travel, or consistent lack thereof, it's not entirely clear. Speed is only part of it. He has to be pushing Mach 2 and then become so focused he basically breaks the time barrier. Or something. It doesn't happen all the time, for him or Zoom, because a)they're not running that fast and b)they don't really NEED to, and of course c) Plot.

[dtissagirl]

She lost me by demanding complete secrecy from any and everyone for always, and by bringing up all the ways in which he's horrible and how she's wary and then letting Oliver spend unsupervised time with the kid the very first time he ever meets him. Especially when she just flat-out refused to ever let Oliver tell William he was his father, so...she's basically demanding Oliver lie in exchange for a few visits with the kid with Oliver posing as her friend. If I wasn't aware that the actual legal system existed, maybe I'd buy it?

 

You know what's hilarious [sad as fuck]? The Oliver from the past 8 episodes [Flash included] would go with "well, Samantha, the only way I prove to you I'm not that guy anymore is if I'm honest with my friends and family about this. And I can ask them to keep it quiet so the general public will never know. BELIEVE ME, they'll get it. My sister is my campaign manager, she'll make sure this is top secret if I wanna be Mayor. But if I lie to my loved ones about this, then I am regressing back to the guy I don't want to be anymore. So. Will you allow me to get to know my son if I tell my girlfriend about it? No? Well, I'm gonna tell her anyway, and I'll also talk to a lawyer and see how we go from here. And by the way, this is me NOT being that guy you knew."

 

But Oliver needs to have the emotional range of a teaspoon for these writers to get their rocks off, since apparently they don't know how to plan organic storylines for 23 episodes, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[dtissagirl]

And I just thought of something -- the "you can't tell anyone about this ever" is already void BECAUSE BARRY KNOWS.

[Advance35]

Am I the only one that thinks threatening or hinting at legal action would be a bad idea for Olivers current position.  I mean, what if that threat or acknowledged recourse, makes acrimony and civility a thing of the past between he and Samantha?   If he is properly awarded his rights as a father, what happens if "William" doesn't want to spend time with him because he "hurt mommy."  That's something Oliver HAS to consider isn't it?

[bijoux]

And I just thought of something -- the "you can't tell anyone about this ever" is already void BECAUSE BARRY KNOWS.

Ah, but technically he didn't tell Barry. It's all lame and stupid and would have been better if it was executed in basically any way other than this one. If they had just left what happened originally and have them flee from the first battle with Savage, I would have been fine with them working on it from there. But the writers went for perverse on purpose.

[lexicon]

I don't have this emotional issue that yous have with the story. I'm not angry, upset, repulsed, I don't think Olicity is over for good, I'm not hoping Olicity is over for good. I really don't feel much of anything.

My main issue/concern is more about the writing/EP's. They just can't seem to help themselves when it comes to relationships. Whenever they are faced with organic vs inorganic storytelling they go for the cheap/easy/quick route. So instead of having Olicity angst for logical reasons they went for the clichéd secrets and lies.

 

I am angry and upset and kind of repulsed too, although that word did not come to mind until I read your post and it's not because they've introduced unneeded angst to the Olicity relationship but because of the issue you stated about the writers/EPs. I hate that they felt the need to introduce drama in order to keep Oliver x Felicity interesting and that they chose to do so in such an inorganic way that effectively ruined all the wonderful character growth that we've seen Oliver demonstrate since this season began.

 

That was enough to anger and upset me, what crossed the line to repulsion was that they had Oliver do it in such smarmy way, more reminiscent of the Ollie that Barry suddenly seems inexplicably hell bent on calling him, than the Oliver Queen we've seen mature and grow on our screens. He not only lied to Felicity's face once they returned home and she made her impassioned speech about loving him and them being a team and asking him to let her help him, but then they had him snuggle into her while smiling as though all was right with his world, without allowing even a hint of self doubt to emerge. Then if spoilers are to be believed

he's soon to propose, maybe as soon as next episode and according to the EPs things aren't meant to come to a head with respect to the kid secret until the middle of the season, so he PROPOSES while keeping such a monumental secret from her. Douche move Oliver

 

So it's not just the stupidity of what unfolded onscreen last night but that it's contrived nature really made me fear for the direction that the show will go with these writers/EPs in charge. I am so disheartened by the route they chose that I now expect HIMYM levels of stupidity from them and that makes me seriously question whether this is a show I should continue to be so invested in. I've lost trust in these writers, who I naively believed had learned some lessons after the contrived-angst overload that was s3. It turns out I was the one who hadn't learned my lesson. Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice...

Edited December 3, 2015 by lexicon

[bethy]

Am I the only one that thinks threatening or hinting at legal action would be a bad idea for Olivers current position.  I mean, what if that threat or acknowledged recourse, makes acrimony and civility a thing of the past between he and Samantha?   If he is properly awarded his rights as a father, what happens if "William" doesn't want to spend time with him because he "hurt mommy."  That's something Oliver HAS to consider isn't it?

 

To me, Samantha's restrictive demands on Oliver's knowing his son would warrant his saying, "I have DNA evidence that William is mine and I'd like to see my son. I don't want to go to court, but I will if you don't honor the fact that I'm the child's father." Possible acrimony is certainly something Oliver has to consider, but if Samantha is the type of woman who would poison her son against his father because his dad wants to know and be a part of his life, then that's on her, not on Oliver. Yes, she could do serious damage to her son and sadly, some parents choose to do that. But I don't know that that means a parent who is being denied his rights shouldn't "threaten" to go to court. But then, I'm a lawyer, so that may color my reaction. :)

Edited December 3, 2015 by bethy

[Menrva]

I did, for some reason, like Hawkman. He just gives this entertaining dickish vibe that I love without being a full-on dick.

I enjoyed him too, for some bizarre reason. To quote "Guardians of the Galaxy", I don't believe anyone is 100% a dick.

 

I watched it and…man, that was terrible. I was folding laundry while watching, and I was more engrossed in matching socks. And I hate folding laundry. Samantha is the worst. Worse than Laurel. For this episode, anyway. I can't add anything else that everyone hasn't already said.

[bmoore4026]

KirkB, on 03 Dec 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

I'm a bit confused by the Hawks/Savage connection, which I imagine LoT will expand on. The Vandal Savage I am familiar with is WAY older than Egypt, this one seems to be FROM Egypt, even though he and Kufu clearly...well, aren't remotely Egyptian. Shiera kind of gets a pass in that regard. But right before they die Kufu and Shiera pray to Horus, I think it was Horus anyway, and he is apparently is the one who binds their souls and gives them wings. Fine. So where does Savage fit in? How does he have immortality connected to their reincarnations?

 

"Because shut up" would the writers response.

[dtissagirl]

Am I the only one that thinks threatening or hinting at legal action would be a bad idea for Olivers current position.

But it wasn't even an idea at all, and imo that's a problem, because it's a logical idea to at least consider before discarding. The story didn't even bring it up.

[apinknightmare]

But it wasn't even an idea at all, and imo that's a problem, because it's a logical idea to at least consider before discarding. The story didn't even bring it up.

 

"Hey Felicity, can I borrow some cash for a retainer? I need a lawyer, and...what for? Oh, um..." LMAO, I can just imagine it. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm a bit confused by the Hawks/Savage connection, which I imagine LoT will expand on. The Vandal Savage I am familiar with is WAY older than Egypt, this one seems to be FROM Egypt, even though he and Kufu clearly...well, aren't remotely Egyptian. Shiera kind of gets a pass in that regard. But right before they die Kufu and Shiera pray to Horus, I think it was Horus anyway, and he is apparently is the one who binds their souls and gives them wings. Fine. So where does Savage fit in? How does he have immortality connected to their reincarnations?

 

I can sort of fanwank that the Kufu that we see in the past (and Shayara for that matter) are not how they really appeared to look in the past, but rather than recast those roles simply for their "prior" incarnation they put the modern day versions in Egyptian costume for that scene. Of course, it doesn't really explain away why Kufu's dad is clearly a white man, but it's something.

 

I didn't quite understand the whole Vandal Savage thing either; Arrowverse VS seems to be a sort of hybrid of VS and Hath-Set from the comics, rather than really just being "formerly known as caveman" Vandal. He's still a pretty bland actor and villain, at least so far. I'm not sure he can pull off a whole season's worth of being the big bad on Legends, but performers have been known to improve with age (ex. Ares during Xena's early seasons compared to his later seasons. RIP, Kevin Smith. )

[dtissagirl]

"Hey Felicity, can I borrow some cash for a retainer? I need a lawyer, and...what for? Oh, um..." LMAO, I can just imagine it. 

 

"Hey, Laurel, I need you to do some pro-bono lawyering for me. You see, back when we were dating I accidentally impregnated a girl, and then my mother paid her off to lie to me that she lost the baby, but psych! I'm a daddy now, please represent me, please please please, I'm totes your friend now, or did you forget I said so?"

Edited December 3, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Delphi]

I mean at this point wouldn't Laurel just be like, "oh, of course you did that. That figures. "

By the way, when Ollie was like, "my mother wouldn't do that" I busted a gut. Sir, your mother secretly had a ship salvaged from the north China area, lied (justified) about your sisters parentage, had an affair with a super villain, proceeded to threaten that villain with another super villain, shot you, let you get kidnapped and then let your step dad get kidnapped. I love Moira, but yes, Ollie, that is absolutely something she would do.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Delphi