S04.E08: Legends Of Yesterday (2)

[tv echo]

Samantha (1st time): "Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return."

 

Samantha (2nd time): "These are my conditions, Oliver. You've already asked me for the world; I am just asking for the same in return."
(source)
 

Stupid writing. Oliver didn't ask her for the world.  He asked to see his son and to tell his girlfriend about it.  That's it.  

 

Also, as others have said, Samantha wasn't raped by Oliver.  She willingly had sex with a rich young guy who had a reputation as a cheater on his then girlfriend (Laurel).  She also had co-equal responsibility with Oliver for having safe sex.  She could've rejected Moira's offer and told Oliver about the baby, but she chose to lie to him and keep William a secret from him, thereby depriving both father and son of their relationship.  Did she expect to never tell her son about his parentage or lie to him also?

 

Regarding Felicity knowing Oliver's DNA gene sequencing, I seem to recall a scene in S2 when Felicity was doing a DNA analysis in connection with trying to find out who killed Sara, and Oliver's face popped up on her screen.  Plus, as bijoux said, Malcolm brought them the sword with Oliver's blood on it as proof Oliver was dead.  She would've tested the blood to make sure it really was Oliver's blood.

 

Something else that occurred to me about this episode... In the confrontation between VS and Oliver, Barry & Malcolm, Oliver shoots an arrow into VS that VS pulls out.  At the end of the scene, VS throws down the bloodied arrow and leaves.  Given the proven futility of shooting arrows at VS, I thought Oliver did it so that they would have VS' blood to analyze and hopefully find something to take him down.  But nope, they just left the bloodied arrow on the ground.  Another missed opportunity to show Oliver has planning smarts.

Edited December 4, 2015 by tv echo

[Angel12d]

Samantha (1st time): "Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return."

 

Samantha (2nd time): "These are my conditions, Oliver. You've already asked me for the world; I am just asking for the same in return."

(source)

 

I mean, that is legit terrible. I don't even understand where she's coming from here. 

[apinknightmare]

I mean, that is legit terrible. I don't even understand where she's coming from here. 

 

Yeah, it was basically, "You're terrible, our kid would be better off without you, but if you want to see him all you have to do is lie." 

 

The "world" for her is visitation with a kid she lied to him about, the world for him is telling a lie that is absolutely for sure going to blow up his life. It makes me LOL that she basically used his past shitiness as examples for why she didn't want him in her kid's life, but is asking him to be shitty to be involved in it. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by apinknightmare

[bethy]

Initially it doesn't come across as vindictive but there are shades of it there....

The actress certainly played those scenes as if she was being perfectly reasonable in her demands. She even says "That's a nice name" about Felicity. And it makes me wonder if we're actually supposed to feel sympathy for the character, believe that she's a good mother for "protecting" her son. It wouldn't be the first time they've written a female character that people respond to the opposite the way that they intended.

ETA - Or what others said above. It took me longer to get that posted than I thought!

Edited December 4, 2015 by bethy

[dtissagirl]

I mean, that is legit terrible. I don't even understand where she's coming from here. 

 

It's because she's not coming from anywhere whatsoever. They needed Oliver to keep a hugeass secret from Felicity specifically, because sometime during February sweeps, probably, this is gonna  blow up in his face and turn into an O/F break-up, so a ginormous secret was fabricated, someone told Oliver "KEEP THIS A SECRET", and he went "OKAY". That's the whole of it.

 

I mean. It's not a complete secret because Barry already knows.  It's not a reasonable secret because this is not how child custody works. And that's not counting the fact that the audience -- and Oliver -- knows everyone in his life would be completely into keeping the fact that he has a kid a total secret, because of a whole bunch of valid reasons Samantha has no idea about. But we -- and Oliver -- do.

 

UGH.

Edited December 4, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Angel12d]

The actress certainly played those scenes as if she was being perfectly reasonable in her demands. She even says "That's a nice name" about Felicity. And it makes me wonder if we're actually supposed to feel sympathy for the character, believe that she's a good mother for "protecting" her son. It wouldn't be the first time they've written a female character that people respond to the opposite the way that they intended.

 

Yep. Agreed. I didn't want to dislike her and I feel sure we're supposed to think she's only being a good mother who is protecting her child. But she just did it in the shittiest way possible so she lost me, I'm afraid.

[apinknightmare]

I mean. It's not a complete secret because already Barry knows.  It's not a reasonable secret because this is not how child custody works. And that's not counting the fact that the audience -- and Oliver -- knows everyone in his life would be completely into keeping the fact that he has a kid a total secret, because of a whole bunch of valid reasons Samantha has no idea about. But we -- and Oliver -- do.

 

UGH.

 

 

What's funny about this is that she never asked how Oliver knew about William or if he had already told anyone. Which, if she was as worried about Oliver's world coming into theirs as she said she was, would've been the VERY FIRST THING SHE ASKED.

[Western]

No, she didn't say anything like that. She just said that she didn't want her kid around Oliver because she didn't want William ending up like him, punching paparazzi and getting young girls pregnant. That last part was just...you had sex with him, lady!

 

Just re-watched the scenes and you're right she doesn't out and out say it but if getting her pregnant = bad then to me she implied it.

I'm coming from a place of a close family member & a close friend who were both dumped by their mothers as young kids so I see why my brain went to 'ruined my life' for that part of the sentence without me realising that the 'ruined my life' was not explicity said.

Re-watching that scene, the writers really need to work on making her sympathetic and all it would have taken was saying Felicity can be told but not meet and so doofus Oliver deciding that that might hurt F worse than being kept in the dark....

 

 

Also was the punching paps before or after she got pregnant by him because IMO she's not doing herself any favours with those arguments as to her being a good mother if that's her parenting criteria for not being such and she was with him after the paps incident/s.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Western

[dtissagirl]

What's funny about this is that she never asked how Oliver knew about William or if he had already told anyone. Which, if she was as worried about Oliver's world coming into theirs as she said she was, would've been the VERY FIRST THING SHE ASKED.

 

I need Barry to start low-key keeping track of Samantha just for kicks. THE FLASH KNOWS YOUR SECRET, LADY, YOU'RE SCREWED ALREADY.

 

Like, I watch Arrow, so I know that keeping a kid away from everything related to Oliver's life is probably not a bad idea to have. But Samantha doesn't watch Arrow, AND YET, she's protecting her kid from... a woman named Felicity she never met? What?

[Menrva]

Is your brother in law single? Because John Barrowman is one handsome man. :)

He's not, sorry! But honestly, he doesn't really look much like Barrowman at all. He's certainly a s*** like JB though. My kid might need new glasses…

[bethy]

Yep. Agreed. I didn't want to dislike her and I feel sure we're supposed to think she's only being a good mother who is protecting her child. But she just did it in the shittiest way possible so she lost me, I'm afraid.

While I was watching, I was mostly positive/neutral about her even as I kept thinking, "Wait. What?" about things she said. It wasn't until later when I really started to think about the whole situation when I got ragey about her. Sadly, the show doesn't seem to have anyone thinking as deeply - or even just as not-shallowly - about what it's doing as the average audience member.

[lexicon]

The actress certainly played those scenes as if she was being perfectly reasonable in her demands. She even says "That's a nice name" about Felicity. And it makes me wonder if we're actually supposed to feel sympathy for the character, believe that she's a good mother for "protecting" her son. It wouldn't be the first time they've written a female character that people respond to the opposite the way that they intended.

 

Oh they're definitely trying to play this as though she's a sympathetic character, case in point, the way she suddenly had the cheque from 10 years ago to prove that she never cashed it and that we're told she kept William away not because of Moira's money but because she wanted her son far away from that kind of woman.

 

Honestly, the way they dealt with this whole story line basically screamed to me that it's being done with the sole purpose of breaking up Oliver and Felicity. To hell with Oliver's character development, the growth they've shown as a couple, or all the positive buzz they were getting for the mature and largely unobtrusive way Olicity has been handled this season. 

 

That added to the special effort to make sure we know Baby Mama is no gold digger but just a mother looking out for her son has me about 75% convinced that at some point, we and Oliver are going to be faced with the idea of them being a real family. Something will happen and we'll see the possibility or even the reality of Oliver and the girl he knocked up 10 years ago, being a couple. William will want mummy and daddy together, BM will conveniently be there for him when he's at his lowest, he'll be convinced he's no good for Felicity and she'll never take him back, they'll share a moment over William and kiss....the scenarios that I've tortured myself with are endless and quite honestly, these writers and EPs are such dumbasses that it almost seems like a virtual certainty that they won't be able to restrain themselves from going there.

 

They're so lucky Felicity and EBR fell into their laps because we know the love story they planned to tell was sure as hell stupid and toxic from the get go. What I don't understand is why they haven't learned from that, why the same people who were brave enough to deviate from comic canon and make a one-time bit part player their hero's one true love, can't deviate from the stupid need to create artificial angst just to stir things up. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by lexicon

[AyChihuahua]

 

I know he is between a rock and a hard place.

Again, in terms of getting to know his kid and lying to Felicity, he is NOT BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE.  All he has to do is TELL FELICITY.  Tell her the whole story, tell her why she can't tell anyone else.  She would take that secret to her grave.  The only reason he isn't doing that is because he thinks she would dump him.  THAT IS MANIPULATION.  Not telling your romantic partner something you KNOW is relevant to their decision whether to stay with you, because you want that person TO stay with you, IS MANIPULATION.  

[Western]

Am I the only one also thinking OQ needs to at the least follow the money trail (tell F so she can do it for you) to see if Moira had any more money stashed for dealing with things of a suspect nature? 
Yay hidden money stash of millions that we can access would be in keeping with Moira and also help to 'fix' the billionaire not billionaire gaping plot point instead of now using Ray / Merlyn's money via Felicity / Thea. Or you know since OQ spent all his money on QC shares, sell a shedload since you're not in charge anyway. I know the value's gone way down with Ray's 'death' but still some money is better than no money.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Western

[apinknightmare]

That added to special effort to make sure we know Baby Mama is no gold digger but just a mother looking out for her son has me about 75% convinced that at some point, we and Oliver are going to be faced with the idea of them being a real family. Something will happen and we'll see the possibility or even the reality of Oliver and the girl he knocked up 10 years ago, being a couple. William will want mummy and daddy together, BM will conveniently be there for him when he's at his lowest, he'll be convinced he's no good for Felicity and she'll never take him back, they'll share a moment over William and kiss....

 

How wonderful it would be for her to offer Oliver a shoulder to cry on when he gets dumped for keeping a secret that SHE ASKED HIM TO KEEP. I can take a lot of stupid. A LOT OF STUPID. But I cannot take that level of fucking dumb.

[kismet]

I felt like she was vindictive because in two timelines they had the opportunity to soften her restrictions. Similar to what has been suggested above, she could have said I want you to keep this private until we work out stuff. Plz don't tell anyone. And then when he mentions FS, she could say only if she meets her or in a few weeks or something.

But the writers instead gave us her saying felicity that's a nice name. And with that the moment passed in the new timeline to make BabyMama sympathetic & not vindictive. So they had screen & script time for her to say something that made it seem like she wasn't doing it just to spite OQ & his GF (something she was never permitted to be twice )

And it totally is the writers, the actors & the directors missing the mark and not getting it like RP stalking & LL voice modulator/lying.

[Password]

Something will happen and we'll see the possibility or even the reality of Oliver and the girl he knocked up 10 years ago, being a couple. William will want mummy and daddy together, BM will conveniently be there for him when he's at his lowest, he'll be convinced he's no good for Felicity and she'll never take him back, they'll share a moment over William and kiss...

YOU SHUT YOUR MIND!!

...sorry it was too much.

Funnily, for me it was the "that's a nice name" that made her seem vindictive. Here's a guy basically begging you to not make him lie to his girl. And baby mama's like "nope, don't care but she has a really nice name."

Whatever show.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Password

[Angel12d]

That added to special effort to make sure we know Baby Mama is no gold digger but just a mother looking out for her son has me about 75% convinced that at some point, we and Oliver are going to be faced with the idea of them being a real family. Something will happen and we'll see the possibility or even the reality of Oliver and the girl he knocked up 10 years ago, being a couple. William will want mummy and daddy together, BM will conveniently be there for him when he's at his lowest, he'll be convinced he's no good for Felicity and she'll never take him back, they'll share a moment over William and kiss....the scenarios that I've tortured myself with are endless and quite honestly, these writers and EPs are such dumbasses that it almost seems like a virtual certainty that they won't be able to restrain themselves from going there. They're so lucky Felicity and EBR fell into their laps because we know the love story they planned to tell was sure as hell stupid and toxic from the get go. What I don't understand is why they haven't learned from that, why the same people who were brave enough to deviate from comic canon and make a one-time bit part player their hero's one true love, can't deviate from the stupid need to create artificial angst just to stir things up. 

 

I just threw up in my mouth.

 

No but seriously, I never saw them going there with the baby mama but they've handled everything else so badly that it wouldn't surprise me now. That's definitely where they'll lose me though. 

[apinknightmare]

I just threw up in my mouth.

 

No but seriously, I never saw them going there with the baby mama but they've handled everything else so badly that it wouldn't surprise me now. That's definitely where they'll lose me though. 

 

Seriously, if he and Felicity break up over this secret, and Oliver falls into the arms of the woman who asked him to keep said secret...is his brain just a teeny marble that gets bounced around inside his skull? I mean, we've been given plenty of reason to think it is, but I'd know it for sure then.

Edited December 4, 2015 by apinknightmare

[lexicon]

I'M SORRY :((((

 

It's just my STUPID brain won't shut up about this so I guess I felt the need to share the pain.

 

When I first saw posts about the Oliver/BM hookup I thought nah nope no way but see stupid brain above and then suddenly I could see all the possibilities, the effort to portray her in a better light than we'd seen in the flashbacks, the deliberate sabotaging of Oliver/Felicity. Yuck

 

For the record, that's where I'll check out too.  

[apinknightmare]

I'M SORRY :((((

 

It's just my STUPID brain won't shut up about this so I guess I felt the need to share the pain.

 

When I first saw posts about the Oliver/BM hookup I thought nah nope no way but see stupid brain above and then suddenly I could see all the possibilities, the effort to portray her in a better light than we'd seen in the flashbacks, the deliberate sabotaging of Oliver/Felicity. Yuck

 

For the record, that's where I'll check out too.  

 

I'm not gonna worry about that at all until I have a reason to. There's nothing at all indicating they're going there. Worry about it when there is. 

[Western]

I just threw up in my mouth.

 

No but seriously, I never saw them going there with the baby mama but they've handled everything else so badly that it wouldn't surprise me now. That's definitely where they'll lose me though. 

I really hope they're not that stupid, but I'm not counting on it.

I now 50% of people divorce, but writers that means 50% don't and have mature relationships like you had so nicely started to give O/F. I try my best to not watch soap operas so stop turning an action show into one.

I came to Arrow not having seen the later seasons of Smallville and only knowing GA/BC from some comic book reading. You tried to make QL/LL work but couldn't because you'd accidentally turned FS (who in one continuity is Firestorms step mother) into his soul mate. Was I mad, nope because comics have spent decades teaching us about muliverses! F/O work as a normal loving, sometimes bickering and annoyed at each other couple so just run with that.

[Angel12d]

Yeah, for the record I don't think they're going there with baby mama, just that it wouldn't shock me if they did.

 

I'm expecting William to ask Oliver if he's his mom's new boyfriend and maybe an awkward scene where they say no. I'm even anticipating William wondering why they're not together if he ever finds out Oliver is actually his dad. Kids ask those sorts of questions without any knowledge of what they're really asking. That's fine. But romance? That feels too much right now. I guess we'll see. Like @apinknightmare said. I'll worry about that when we start to see hints of it on screen. Until then, no.

[bijoux]

  Something else that occurred to me about this episode... In the confrontation between VS and Oliver, Barry & Malcolm, Oliver shoots an arrow into VS that VS pulls out.  At the end of the scene, VS throws down the bloodied arrow and leaves.  Given the proven futility of shooting arrows at VS, I thought Oliver did it so that they would have VS' blood to analyze and hopefully find something to take him down.  But nope, they just left the bloodied arrow on the ground.  Another missed opportunity to show Oliver has planning smarts.

 

I expected that too. So I count that as a point where I bid farewell to smart Oliver who was present for the early part of the episode. Then again, all these geniuses decided to just leave the ashes where they were. Didn't Felicity or Cisco ask them where they scattered them once everyone was back at the farm? It seems like a thing they would know about. I get the logistics of it. Neither show can add another villain right now but they need him on LoT. So they're having him chill at Malcolm's digs until he's needed elsewhere. I just still think it was a dumb tactical move on the part of the masks.

[Delphi]

Samantha (1st time): "Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return."

Samantha (2nd time): "These are my conditions, Oliver. You've already asked me for the world; I am just asking for the same in return."

(source)

Stupid writing. Oliver didn't ask her for the world. He asked to see his son and to tell his girlfriend about it. That's it.

Also, as others have said, Samantha wasn't raped by Oliver. She willingly had sex with a rich young guy who had a reputation as a cheater on his then girlfriend (Laurel). She also had co-equal responsibility with Oliver for having safe sex. She could've rejected Moira's offer and told Oliver about the baby, but she chose to lie to him and keep William a secret from him, thereby depriving both father and son of their relationship. Did she expect to never tell her son about his parentage or lie to him also?

Regarding Felicity knowing Oliver's DNA gene sequencing, I seem to recall a scene in S2 when Felicity was doing a DNA analysis in connection with trying to find out who killed Sara, and Oliver's face popped up on her screen. Plus, as bijoux said, Malcolm brought them the sword with Oliver's blood on it as proof Oliver was dead. She would've tested the blood to make sure it really was Oliver's blood.

Something else that occurred to me about this episode... In the confrontation between VS and Oliver, Barry & Malcolm, Oliver shoots an arrow into VS that VS pulls out. At the end of the scene, VS throws down the bloodied arrow and leaves. Given the proven futility of shooting arrows at VS, I thought Oliver did it so that they would have VS' blood to analyze and hopefully find something to take him down. But nope, they just left the bloodied arrow on the ground. Another missed opportunity to show Oliver has planning smarts.

Not that I agree with Samantha in the least, I don't, I think she's shady and I think she probably cashed that first check Moira gave her and is trying to act like she didn't because Oliver had no idea about anything, but I think the world comment was probably about William, to a single mother her little boy probably is her world. So Oliver asking for anything regarding her son she would perceive as his asking for the world.

[AyChihuahua]

How wonderful it would be for her to offer Oliver a shoulder to cry on when he gets dumped for keeping a secret that SHE ASKED HIM TO KEEP. I can take a lot of stupid. A LOT OF STUPID. But I cannot take that level of fucking dumb.

Remember Brian Ford Sullivan's tweet, about "all the feels" between Oliver and Baby Mama?  AK's about how awesome the actress is?  They think she's great.  So I agree, there's a good chance, if they can lock in the actress for enough episodes, that Oliver and Baby Mama at least have a near-miss at giving it a go.  And I said this before, but the fact that she's awful doesn't matter, because the EPs and writers are morons.  The fact that Oliver was celibate all last season when he couldn't have Felicity doesn't matter, because that's when he was choosing not to live.  This season, especially with a kid, he's choosing to live.  If Felicity breaks up with him, which she will, and especially if she does end up in a wheelchair, which seems likely, there's a very good chance he'll get pushed towards BM (going to call her BM now, acronym for Baby Mama, but it also means bowel movement, which is perfect for her) by Felicity/Felicity dumping him, and pulled towards BM by the idea of giving this new ready-made family a real go.  I am sure he'll moon over Felicity and try to get her back and feel guilty and all his usual bullshit, but if at some point the breakup seems permanent, he is likely to start moving on.  I'm not saying it's LIKELY, but it's definitely possible if they go for either of them dating someone else this season, BM is the only real possibility, bc no other potential LI characters for either of them have been introduced.

[Password]

If the writers really Really REALLY think that Oliver trying to move on with baby mama after wheelchair bound Felicity justifiably dumps him is in their wheel house of believable storylines, I'm reporting them to the authorities.

[nksarmi]

I get where you're coming from, but I truly don't think that she was written to be spiteful and vindictive - I think her coming off that way was completely unintended because of the idiotic way they set up this lie. I think we were supposed to believe that she was an honorable person and a good mother, who was wary of Oliver and his past/life/world in Star City. 

Well I think we are supposed to sympathize with or think Laurel is a hero a lot too but that doesn't mean it comes off that way.  So I don't really care how they think they were portraying baby momma - she was awful.  I guess we are supposed to think she's some kind of hero because she didn't take Moira's money and provided for the kid on her own (except everyone here remembers that there were two checks).  And we are suppose to believe that because she never needed Oliver or Queen money, she doesn't need - or want - Oliver now.

 

To a certain extent, I get that.  But considering he never knew about the kid, she is in fact being spiteful.  It would be one thing to say "I didn't need you then and I don't need you now" IF he cut off ties with her.  But he didn't.  She lied to him.  And the really weird thing is....Oliver's death and return didn't even effect her.  Like wouldn't she have at least considered getting ahold of him three years ago when he returned from the island? But no - she so wants nothing to do with him that she didn't even reach out to him then.

 

So here comes this man who she wanted her kid to have absolutely nothing to do with and she insists that he never be known as the boy's father but just mommy's friend and she wants him to screw up his relationship with the woman he loves on top of that?!?!?! Yea it kind of sounds a bit vindictive and definitely selfish.

 

What she should have done - at the very least - was say tell this Felicity what's going on but tell her I don't want her to know who I am or who William is.   You clearly love her and trust her, but I don't know her and I don't want anyone slipping up around my son.  For now, you are mommy's friend and that's it.

[lexicon]

When it comes to BM (heh) I have no particularly angry feelings. Yeah she was being a moron and asking for ridiculous things and was the one who kept him away from the kid all this time but I don't care about her. I care about Oliver, the Oliver we've seen grow and develop over the past 3+ seasons, or so I thought. I care about Felicity, who just a few eps ago decided to put aside her reservations about being so overwhelmingly in love with a man and go all in, with absolute faith that her trust in him would be justified. I care about Olicity which allowed two characters I adored to show me their very best selves and allowed the kind of superhero I could believe in to emerge. That to me is what has been tainted and imo BM is not to blame for that. Oliver is, well really the writers but in show, all the messy fallout is because of him. She gave him an ultimatum and he forgot some basic common sense and a lot of what he's learned for the past few years - secrets are bad and always come back to bite you in the ass unless you're Laurel in which case other people suffer and mostly importantly when a villain seemingly leaves you between a rock and a hard place, try to find another way!

[lemotomato]

Oliver lied to Felicity because he was terrified she would dump him. So when she finds out he lied and she dumps him, he's going to... immediately give up on getting her back/regaining her trust and throw his lot in with baby mama? Look, I know this storyline sucks, but how does that speculation even make anysense?

[Carrie Ann]

Also was the punching paps before or after she got pregnant by him because IMO she's not doing herself any favours with those arguments as to her being a good mother if that's her parenting criteria for not being such and she was with him after the paps incident/s.

 

Well, I do think the writers kinda rewrote what was the implied timeline in the original 220 flashback sequence, which made the pregnancy seem like it was much closer to when Oliver went on the Queen's Gambit. So, all I can offer is my best guess on the rough timeline, based on the dates we do know:

 

2005 or maybe early 2006: Oliver cheats on LL (probably) with Samantha, resulting in a pregnancy. Oliver is 20.

--6 weeks later (approx): Samantha moves to CC

2006 (mid- to late, most likely): William is born. Oliver is 21.

2007: The Gambit sinks (do we have any clue about even what time of year it was?) Oliver is (probably) 22.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that Oliver's punching paparazzi days may have been in between the pregnancy and the Gambit going down, but who knows? No one ever makes it sound like he had one wild year; they make it sound like he was wild his whole young adult life. So, yeah, you know she probably knew what she was getting into. I don't blame her for her judgment of him later though. She was 20, having fun, sleeping with a fun, hot dude. Then she got pregnant and shit got real, and all that ridiculous behavior probably seemed a lot less cool after the fact. And so, basically, we've got her keeping the pregnancy from him, and then maybe up to another year where she could have told him about William, but in that time, he was making a public mess of himself. And then he was dead for five years. By that time, I imagine she'd have determined hiding it had really been for the best. And after he came back, he was putting on the Ollie show for the public. Getting arrested, opening a nightclub riddled with drugs and ODs, etc. Then Tommy dies, then his mother dies. I can totally see why she didn't contact Oliver. I'm not saying she made the right choices at any given point, but I do get it, on a character motivation level.

 

This is the whole problem, as you all have been discussing for the last page or so: on paper, her concerns are very, very valid. William is her life, her "world," her only priority. But she contradicts herself by showing that she does think it's possible Oliver has changed, and at the same time asking him to do something that will prove he's still immature. I told apinknightmare that all they really needed to do to solve this issue for me was for Samantha to say, "I don't want you telling anyone right now, including her. You may trust her, but I don't even trust you yet, so I just need a little more time." I still would have thought it was an unnecessary request, and would have been unhappy with Oliver going along with it, but it would have meant that not everyone needed to be a bewildering shithead in this scenario. And it would have provided the show with the same amount of drama, because it's not like Felicity's not going to find out until next season or something. Like, they're going to move on this in a few episodes' time, is my guess, which would be well within the amount of time I'd expect Samantha to want for Oliver's trial run. ALAS.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver lied to Felicity because he was terrified she would dump him. So when she finds out he lied and she dumps him, he's going to... immediately give up on getting her back/regaining her trust and throw his lot in with baby mama? Look, I know this storyline sucks, but how does that speculation even make anysense?

How does it make sense that he knows she's going to find out, but he's lying anyway?  How did it make sense that he explicitly put a known mass murderer under his protection and didn't even inform the civil authorities that the mass murderer was alive?  Oh, and my personal favorite, how did it make sense that Oliver left ONE WORKING PARACHUTE RIGHT THERE for RAG to use to escape the crashing plane when Oliver's WHOLE PLAN was to kill RAG and the virus BY CRASHING THE PLANE? 

 

These writers don't care about making sense, so whether a storyline makes sense it entirely irrelevant.  It's the CW, which loves love triangles.  BM is an attractive young woman in the right age category.  O/F are going to break up.  I don't think anyone here is saying it's LIKELY, but there is definitely a chance, and it's more than a tiny chance.  Oliver is going to feel terrible for lying and he's going to be sad about being dumped, but if he deems the dumping permanent, at some point anybody would start dating again.  Again, he didn't last season bc he was expecting to die.  That's not the case anymore.  And, WE think BM is awful, but the EPs and writers clearly do not. 

 

I am sure, though, that he's not going to cheat with BM.  If they do anything, it'll be post-breakup.  Felicity might THINK he's cheating on her, but he won't.  And I don't think he's going to get into a relationship with BM.  If anything happens, I'm thinking more like a wistful gaze and/or a kiss.  Yes, it would suck.  Yes, it would idiotic.  THAT IS NOT A DEALBREAKER FOR THESE WRITERS. (emphasis not really aimed at you, more at the total idiots who run this show)

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[lexicon]

Oliver lied to Felicity because he was terrified she would dump him. So when she finds out he lied and she dumps him, he's going to... immediately give up on getting her back/regaining her trust and throw his lot in with baby mama? Look, I know this storyline sucks, but how does that speculation even make anysense?

 

I'd like to hold up my hand here and say it absolutely doesn't make sense but I've gone into full blown worst-case scenario mode touched by a huge helping of maybe if I say it it won't happenitis so that is why I put it out into the universe. Don't fail me now Universe.

 

Also I don't expect him to go all in on a relationship with BM, more like Felicity will dump him and he'll mope around all sad at first but then let her go manfully because he's proven what he's always thought and he's not good enough for her all the while keeping in touch with BM while building a relationship with the kid. One day, they'll share a moment, we'll see them bonding, then maybe a kiss. I have a hard time with him actually going through with the idea of a relationship, physical or otherwise with her, especially since any repercussions from that would rebound on his relationship with the kid but then again I never thought he'd sleep with Sara again in s2 either so what do I know?

 

All of this mad speculation is borne out of my feelings that the writers have, once again thrown everything character related out the window, in order to get to where they want to go. I'm not expecting things to make sense, I expect them to be cliched and tropey and rage inducing all the while MG et al go "if you hate it, it's because you're an Olicity shipper".

[AyChihuahua]

http://tvline.com/2015/12/03/arrow-season-4-oliver-felicity-breakup/

 

This has already been posted, but people should check out the comments.  EVERYONE hates the BM storyline.  It's kind of hilarious.  Dudebros hate the angst/think Felicity is nosy and bitchy.  O/F people hate the contrived drama and relationship angst.  Casual viewers hate the angst and soapiness.  Oliver fans hate how Oliver is regressing.  Felicity fans hate how Oliver is lying to and manipulating her (again). 

 

So basically Guggie is batting .1000.  Every category of viewers hates it.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Kordi]

In the OLIVER QUEEN THREAD, CARRIE ANN said:

“[...] my interpretation of the [O/F cuddling] scene [at the end of 4x08], which is that Oliver looks completely relieved to be in Felicity's arms because he is. Because that is his dominant, overwhelming emotion at that moment. [...] my immediate interpretation [of that closing scene] was, "Whoa, okay, he was REALLY fucked up by the thought of her breaking up with him." So fucked up that he would make such a stupid, desperate mistake. Fucked up on a level above the typical human response.

[...] the thought of losing [Felicity] is horrifying and unbearable to [Oliver], on a deep, lizard-brain level. I think his PTSD is in play; I think his fear of what he becomes without her is in play. I think he has finally let himself be vulnerable to a thing having power over him--his love for her and their life and hopes for a future together--and he is bone-deep terrified at the thought of it slipping away.

So when he's back in SC, and she's so firmly with him--and especially if you believe the interpretation that he doesn't think he's ever going to be allowed to really be William's father (Samantha saying he can "never" tell anyone else, just Mommy's friend, etc.)--he's just overwhelmingly relieved to have dodged the scariest bullet of his life, and probably willfully blind to the obvious risk that Felicity will find out some other day.

[...] [Oliver’s] emotional responses are NOT normal. And something needs to be done about that. If that's the progress we get from him by screwing this up so badly and getting dumped by Felicity, then okay. I'll still think it's about the most contrived, hack-y way to accomplish this, but you know. That's what I've come to expect from these people, so”.

 

And in the same thread, DTISSAGIRL added:

“[...] And I do get that Oliver is completely terrified of losing Felicity, but then... this has to somehow be turned into a story arc for him. Because it REALLY isn't healthy for him or for Felicity, if she's his only lifeline like this. Character development here is Oliver figuring out that while it might suck balls to live without being with Felicity, that he can do it *well*, and not whatever the hell it was he was doing last season.

[...] I'm totally okay with Oliver believing that being in such a good relationship with Felicity helped him mature, and finally made him able to look forward to a "normal" life, and contemplate a future for the first time in almost a decade. But she CANNOT be the single reason for everything ever in his life. And yeah, that kind of demands a storyline in which Oliver (and Felicity too, actually) realize that he can be a self-sufficient human being without Felicity... it's just that he just doesn't want to be without her. That's the mature healthy way of looking at a relationship”.

 

I really LOVE what @Carrie Ann and @Dtissagirl have to say about Oliver´s behavior in the "cuddling scene" with Felicity at the end of the episode! Of course, this doesn´t excuse his lie, but at least it helps me to understand it a little better. (And it helps me to find some meaning in this terrible and useless "baby mama" plot.)

 

IMO, Oliver went from one extreme in S3 ("I can`t be with the woman I love") to the opposite extreme in S4 ("I can`t live without the woman I love"). In order for him to have a healthy, mature, and lasting relationship with Felicity (or with any other woman, for that matter), he has to realize two things: (a) "I can have a good and happy relationship if I want to" and (b) "I can live well and happily on my own if I have to". The first thing was the main lesson he had to take from what happened to him in S3, the second thing is what I hope he will learn from the events of S4. If this is accomplished, then the soap opera drama about a secret kid will make at least some sense, because it will contribute to more character growth on Oliver`s part... although I have to say that so far I have no idea how the writers can break up O/F and reunite them in a believable manner without hurting their relationship permanently.

 

A final thought on the topic. After Barry´s time travel, we have the following dialogue:

Barry: "[...] And then Felicity found out [about the DNA test], and you guys had a pretty big fight, and then it sounded like it was over between you two".

Oliver: "What was the fight about?"

Barry: "I`m pretty sure you`re someone´s father, Oliver."

 

So from Oliver`s own point of view, "If Felicity found out about the kid, she`d break up with me" is a certain fact - based on the evidence of Barry`s testimony: After all, he just came back from the future/ alternative timeline and was an EYEWITNESS of what would happen, if Felicity knew about William. Given how much Oliver depends on Felicity and given the (seeming) inevitability of a break-up after her coming to know the whole story, telling Felicity about William becomes impossible for Oliver, because he can`t bear the idea of losing her. Is it selfish to lie to her face? YES! Is it manipulative to do so? EXACTLY! But I don´t think it is OOC for Oliver - for reasons that have nothing (or little) to do with honoring Samantha`s unreasonable request and that go beyond his general tendency to keep secrets and his overall reluctance to tell the full truth.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Kordi

[AyChihuahua]

EXACTLY! But I don´t think it is OOC for Oliver - for reasons that have nothing (or little) to do with honoring Samantha`s unreasonable request and that go beyond his general tendency to keep secrets and his overall reluctance to tell the full truth.

It's completely in character for Oliver to lie to and manipulate people.  He's done it a thousand times before.  But that's exactly the problem...HE'S DONE IT A THOUSAND TIMES BEFORE.  He's done it a bunch of times TO FELICITY.  He supposedly learned that lying to and manipulating the people he "loves" is BAD.  So he never learns, and I see no reason, whatsoever, for her to put up with this behavior yet again.

[catrox14]

 

Samantha (1st time): "Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return."

 

Samantha (2nd time): "These are my conditions, Oliver. You've already asked me for the world; I am just asking for the same in return."

 

 

 

 

 

Gods help me, I'm going to try to defend the writing here. Maybe it's from watching Doctor Who but I think it's written that way on purpose. I think there is another timeline skip that happened that we haven't seen yet...It would answer a lot of things for me.

 

We didn't see Oliver ask anything of her other than permission to see his son. Now I find that kind of odd to be phrased as "asking the world of her" to see his own son unless she KNOWS he's the Green Arrow and she fears for his safety.  It would also explain his bizarre serenity with lying to Felicity at the end. That something else happened we didn't see.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :)

[KirkB]

On another topic, I watched the episode again and I noticed that Malcolm's little speech as he's gathering up some of Savage's ashes is word for word (except the you owe me buddy part at the end) the same thing Savage says during the meteor shower in ancient Egypt. Which leads me to wonder if the whole reincarnation thing had nothing to do with Shyera and Kufu's prayers but rather Savage doing a spell, which is why the staff and the dagger, which were related to the incoming meteors apparently, glowed. So the Hawks keep reincarnating because Savage wanted to be able to kill them over and over again, and he gets to stay around so long as he does kill them over and over again. That also explains how he's able to find them, he's connected to them by the same spell which reincarnates them and makes him immortal. Which all makes sense "because comics."

 

But here's what I don't understand. Why involve Vandal Savage, who had nothing to do with the Hawks?  I know they wanted to introduce the Hawks before they ship them off to LoT and figured the crossover would be a good place to do that. So why not take a lesser known character, Hath-Set, whose whole thing IS killing the Hawks over and over again, and have him show up to try and kill Kendra and Carter comes along to help. He's defeated, but they can still have Barry time travel and, for whatever reason, Oliver and his baby drama, and save Vandal Savage for LoT. Introducing the big bad for LoT and connecting him to the Hawks makes Rip recruiting them in the first place pretty damn stupid. "Hey guys, you're the only two people in the world whose deaths will actually make our enemy stronger. Want to help me fight him?"

[apinknightmare]

Can no one on this show do math? Oliver said the boy looked about nine, and that he and Samantha had their "thing" ten years ago, but the check that Moira gave her is dated November 2007. 

[Delphi]

Great, she's even worse. Back in 2007, she blackmailed Moira into giving her more hush money, but then felt bad so she didn't end up cashing it. What a lowlife.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Delphi

[millennium]

It seemed unrealistic to me (relatively speaking) that Kendra, a low-key girl who has been aware of her past for what, maybe 24 hours, would slip on the Hawkgirl outfit and step out in front of all those new acquaintances (including Cisco, her boyfriend) with her boobs spilling out of her top and not feel the least bit ridiculous.

 

How do the wings penetrate their clothes?   When Kendra leaped off the roof she was wearing a sweater or a jacket.   Do the wings rip right through them?

 

Hawkman seems like a jerk.

 

A lot of the Secret Origins-type stuff they showed about the Hawks should have been saved for the Legends of Tomorrow show.  It's a pity they've ruined two shows -- The Flash and Arrow -- for the sake of a third show.

 

I predict disaster for Legends of Tomorrow.   A bunch of B-list heroes played by actors ranging from just okay to awful.   I won't be watching. 

 

P.S. I did enjoy seeing all the characters get nuked.   It resonated with my own feelings about these shows lately.

Edited December 4, 2015 by millennium

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I would believe the "He just loves her so much he had to lie" thing if we hadn't seen in the first timeline he let her walk away and essentially break up with him without a fight. She already knew at that point so there was literally no reason not to explain to her what BM had said about keeping it a secret. 

[kes0704]

This is what I don't understand with Oliver. He never fights for anything emotionally, he just stands there looking teary and says and does NOTHING. He did the same thing when Felicity said she didn't want to be a woman he loves. He didn't try and stop her or explain to her or fight to keep her, and again with BM he just went along and didn't do anything more than a single, teary-eyed weak plea to let him tell his serious girlfriend.

I know it's for plot but it is so frustrating to watch. Oliver will do anything to save the people he loves, but only if it involves a physical fight and not an emotional one.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

It took me a while sorting through comments before I realized "BM" doesn't stand for Black Manta, a nemesis of Aquaman.

[AyChihuahua]

I would believe the "He just loves her so much he had to lie" thing if we hadn't seen in the first timeline he let her walk away and essentially break up with him without a fight. She already knew at that point so there was literally no reason not to explain to her what BM had said about keeping it a secret. 

Even he knows it's a bunch of bullshit.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

I'm sure  people here could come up with half a dozen legit reasons Samantha could have given for keeping Oliver quiet about William.  Even if she only said "Let's keep this quiet until we see how William reacts to you and then you can tell your family."

 

 Introducing the big bad for LoT and connecting him to the Hawks makes Rip recruiting them in the first place pretty damn stupid. "Hey guys, you're the only two people in the world whose deaths will actually make our enemy stronger. Want to help me fight him?"

Not to mention "You've already lost to him 206 times so you're perfect for fighting him."

Your scenario makes more sense.

 

 What I don't understand is why they haven't learned from that, why the same people who were brave enough to deviate from comic canon and make a one-time bit part player their hero's one true love, can't deviate from the stupid need to create artificial angst just to stir things up. 

I don't think it's a question of bravery. I think it's a question of hack writing -- they simply don't know how to do any better.

 

 I'm confused about what scene(s) reporters were referring to before the ep aired, that were supposed to be his best ever, most heartbreaking, amazing, etc.? I don't think any scene or moment in this episode stood out to that degree, and certainly none came anywhere near my personal gold standard for SA, which is "I don't want to die down here" from 302.

I thought it was when he asked Samantha to let him see William and she told him her conditions and his reaction when she refused to let him tell even Felicity.  And maybe during the fight with Felicity, Alan Sepinwall said SA and EBR did some of their best work while Oliver and Felicity were so off.

 

Certainly not when he was lying to Felicity in the last scene.

 

Also sidenote - Completely feel bad for Iris fans because they so could have given her LL's job in this episode during Part 1. TQ & LL literally just researched the internet for information. How hard would that have been for Iris to do? Maybe we could have been spared the Kendra reveal about the falling rock power. Either way, I am no big fan of LL anymore, but at least the Arrow writers managed to get her more than 1 line and a name-drop during the Flash episode. Iris barely got that line.

Laurel and Thea joined Oliver, Barry, Diggle and the Hawks for the big battle at the end.  Whatever Laurel's failings, she's there to help in a fight, which Iris isn't.

 

Iris couldn't have found out about the falling rocks from Egypt unless she could read hieroglyphics. And even then, only if some ancient Egyptian scholar put it together that the Staff had the same material as the falling rocks.

 

Did I imagine her saying "you've already taken everything from me" during that second convo, our something similar?

She did, but he hadn't taken anything from her at that point, and all he was asking was to know his son.  Histrionic Personality Disorder?

 

As for how they knew each other in the past, the way Oliver spoke about her to Moira gave the impression that it was more than a one night stand. I don't think it was serious or anything like that but I do think they were probably having a fling. 

Moira assumed that it was Laurel who was pregnant.  So if Oliver slept with Samantha more than once, Moira didn't know about it.

Maybe she was one of the women he serially cheated on Laurel with.  If so, then she has even less moral high ground.

Edited December 4, 2015 by statsgirl

[Menrva]

This whole BM storyline has me so down. It's Charlie Brown and that fucking football, all over again. It doesn't help that every time I see "BM" I think "Bowel Movement". Because that's what this whole stupid story is.

 

BM is an idiot. And, just from a practical standpoint, why the fuck didn't she cash that second check? Since she kept the baby, that money would help cover childcare, especially if she wanted to finish college and get a decent job to help support her and her kid. That would help with housing costs. The kid's school tuition. Did she think she was going to get some award for pulling herself up by her bootstraps? And no one asked the world of her. She chose to keep and raise that kid. The only asking was probably Ollie asking her to remove her panties. And she apparently jumped at the chance. 

 

Do Not Understand. The Stupid Burns and Burns.

[catrox14]

I think we were supposed to see her not cashing the check as her being a sympathetic, suffering single mom who wasn't going to take that mean old Moira's money.  LOL boy did that backfire!

[AyChihuahua]

Yay, BM is catching on!  Because she IS a BM!

[NumberCruncher]

By her supposedly not cashing Moira's check she's still an asshole for not telling Oliver the truth. That means that she wasn't even being held to secrecy because of a bribe. She chose not be to honest with him. Even if she was afraid of what Moira would do to her, she still could have told him and Moira that she had no interest having either of them in the child's life way back then. Given the place Oliver was at emotionally at the time, he probably was douchey enough to be relieved not to have to deal with fatherhood interfering with his playboy ways. But she didn't even give him that option, so yes, she's a major asshole.