S04.E08: Legends Of Yesterday (2)

[apinknightmare]

I didn't really mind that. She was in probably the 700th warehouse over the course of a year. No wonder it looked familiar.

 

I didn't mind it at all, I just thought it was funny. 

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, no, no. Let's not sugar coat it. Moira didn't let him get kidnapped, she had him kidnapped. I love the woman but she was effed up.

...  

I still can't connect it to Oliver being distracted. The geek squad was in charge of the gauntlet, he didn't really have much of an input there nor could he have. And trusting Carter with Kendra's training makes sense seeing as he's had 4000 years experience with it. (Well, as much sense as it can to trust a winged person you've just met who dropped your friend out of the sky!) it's just a plan not working, not Oliver being distracted as far as I see. Even if he had brought the rest of the team along, they just would have gotten burned there instead of at the farm. I don't think this is something that can be placed on Oliver's shoulders.

She had Oliver kidnapped AND TORTURED to find out what, if anything, his dad told him.  (Of course, she did it to "protect" him...god the Queens are FUCKED UP.)

 

I like your thoughts re him not really being distracted.  Just more rationalizing shitty behavior from good ol' Ollie.  (Which is what I am calling him henceforth.)

[NorthstarATL]

Well, that was silly. Oliver has every right to see his kid, regardless of the mother's wishes, because HE did not abandon the kid and the mother accepted a bribe to deny the kid his father! She should have custody taken away. If only someone with access to corporate lawyers knew about the situation... The whole thing is beyond dumb, and what's worse is that now Oliver is a lying liar who lies and I cannot accept him as a "hero". Again.

  I couldn't find the post again, but whoever pointed out that Barry need not have gone into the whole paternity thing with Ollie after the time jump was spot on.

  As is often the case with two-parters, the finale didn't measure up to the first half (which had its own set of problems).

[Chaos Theory]

Yeah, the way I see it, Oliver's choice wasn't William vs Felicity; it was a choice between lying to Samantha or lying to Felicity, and he chose the latter. I certainly understand him choosing to do whatever to see his son right now. But he could have told Samantha what she wanted to hear, and then come home to SC and told Felicity, and both of them would have pretended he didn't. As @apinknightmare said, at best, we're talking about Oliver feeling a sense of honor, of keeping his promise to Samantha, but he is simultaneously sacrificing his implicit promise to Felicity, to have honesty in their relationship.

If it was this one time I may give him a pass after smacking him over the head a few times and calling him a moron but Oliver has a long history of lying to people he is supposed to love and trust for highly questionable reasons. It is that history of deception that pisses me off.

[catrox14]

 

dn't notice last night that Laurel said, "I have the strangest deja vu" after they offed Vidal Sassoon, but SHE WASN'T THERE THE FIRST TIME TO HAVE DEJA VU.

 

These writers, man.

 

The only wank I have for that is maybe there is another incident and shift in the timeline where Laurel WAS there? Like maybe she just disregarded Oliver and was skulking about on her own and no one noticed?  Can I just blame this all on Laurel? Please?

[Password]

Take it @catrox14. Just take it.

[catrox14]

LOL take what?

[LisaM]

I am planning to watch the spinoff because I really like Ray, Sara and love Victor Garber but the Hawks - eh.

[Trini]

For those asking, here's the clip of the Donkey making a break from the bad Hawk acting.

https://twitter.com/JeffreyBridges/status/672282482209775617

 

Who knew donkeys were so agile?! The things you learn from TV....  :)

[kieyra]

A quick aside from a relative non-comic-er: is the Hawk-person mythology really as dumb as it seems in the show? Like, they just die over and over again? Wake up from personality coma, get stabbed by this one dude, die, get born, repeat? This did not strike me as a captivating mythos. I feel like I'm missing a piece. I also wasn't clear on why stabby dude swore eternal vengeance on them in the first place.

The actress was better in the flashback scenes, but not by much.

Kid storyline is the dumbest thing the show has ever done.

[kennyab]

I really only had two thoughts about this episode, which were:

 

The babymama plot reminded me of why I used to hate Oliver so much (I guess I'm back to this now). Such a cringeworthy plot. I remember it made me hate Luke and Luke/Lorelai on Gilmore Girls, I hope for Olicity shippers' sake it will be dealt with in a better way.

 

My first thought was that someone needs to make Ollie sit down and watch Gilmore Girls season 4 to figure out why Luke and Lorelei are awesome and season 6 to figure out why Amy Sherman-Palladino should forever apologize for that plot.

 

Mysticism experts would also be smart enough to collect those ashes - where's Constantine when you need him?

 

Yup. Never ever ever just leave the ashes of an immortal lying around. I was about to yell at the screen when they started walking out. And sure enough Malcolm comes in to collect the remains. Cisco and Felicity really need to give the others some lessons on genre saviness.

Edited December 4, 2015 by kennyab

[Trini]

Kid storyline is the dumbest thing the show has ever done.

 

Penicillin tea as a resurrection potion is still #1 for me.

[Menrva]

So my kids begged and begged and made puppy dog eyes because they wanted to see the rest of the crossover, despite my warnings…And I'm kind of glad I did because their comments during the episode were fairly entertaining. Here's just a few:

 

On Hawkman:

"His head is a funny shape. Like, his real head, not the dumb helmet."

"So what's his name? HawkGuy?"

"No, that's Avengers. And it's Hawkeye, doofus." 

"So where's Captain America?"

"This is DC, not Marvel! Sheesh…"

"So is it Hawk Guy or Hawkman?"

"Aaarghhhh…"

 

"Look, Mom, Laurel's making the screaming toilet face again!"

 

"Wait, they just barbecued Green Arrow? What do they call the show now?"

 

"The donkey escaped! Where's it going?" (I never even noticed the donkey at all until I saw it being discussed on this forum.)

 

I may have to let them watch with me more often because it was more fun this time around.

 

[statsgirl]

She had Oliver kidnapped AND TORTURED to find out what, if anything, his dad told him.  (Of course, she did it to "protect" him...god the Queens are FUCKED UP.)

Technically she did it to prove to Malcolm that he didn't know anything (which is kind of stupid because what was there to know then?) so that Malcolm wouldn't kill him for knowing, as he tried a few episodes later.  And Look, Moira's dead and guess who's still on the show!

 

Penicillin tea as a resurrection potion is still #1 for me.

Penicillin tea is like Barry being able to run fast enough to break the time barrier for me, it's suspension of disbelief.

 

The kid is the stupidest plot they've ever done, and considering what they done, that's saying something.

 

So my kids begged and begged and made puppy dog eyes because they wanted to see the rest of the crossover, despite my warnings…And I'm kind of glad I did because their comments during the episode were fairly entertaining. Here's just a few:

That was hilarious. Better than parts of the show.

[Primal Slayer]

Oliver just showed his 1 constant trait of keeping secrets from others isn't something that being happy can fix. Go figure.

[kismet]

I thought the same thing - why not tell Felicity and have HER keep the secret?  Why does Oliver care about keeping a promise to baby momma when it's a totally ridiculous promise to ask (he should be able to tell the woman he loves - no one else, ok - but baby momma shouldn't have batted an eye at that).

 

I know for a fact this won't happen, but I would LOVE it if Oliver kept dropping clues so Felicity would figure it out and then once she does, he says "good I can talk about it now because I didn't tell you."

I think that is one of the reasons I liked that FS found out by taking the paper from BA. Which is why I'm pissed that they reset time. They should have kept her still  finding out on her own. She found out, but OQ didn't tell her. It was a perfect scenario. It was also perfect, because it was within the 24hrs of OQ finding out himself. So any secret keeping might have been acceptable since he was still adjusting to the information himself. Now that he is keeping the secret beyond that window, it is just wrong & FS has every right to be mad & question his level of trust of her since he is keeping the secret. I hate manufactured angst for dramatic purposes that create OOC moments and that is all this is right now with OQ not telling FS because BabyMama is telling him not to.

 

I still think he didn’t owe the BabyMama anything and should have told FS. The BabyMama lost her right to tell him who he could or could not tell when she was keeping the truth hidden for years. I get her wanting to protect her son. But FS is not just some random girl. But I guess the BabyMama is still kinda resentful and taking it out on OQ now. She slept with him too. It was a mutual decision. OQ wasn’t just out there impregnating girls. She chose to participate in sex as well.

 

As for FS, well let’s just say I wasn’t happy how she handled the fight the first time. I thought her reaction was a little too over dramatic considering the circumstances of how & when OQ found out. It wasn’t a secret he had been carrying around. Her reaction seems more appropriate is she acted like that after time reset, when she will inevitably find out OQ is keeping a secret from her for at least a week. DUMB Oliver! I dread the angst that will come now, if her reaction was how FS handled the information with OQ only knowing the secret for a few hours at most.

 

I’m also pissed that BA didn’t talk to OQ more about it. I know BA is not supposed to mess with the future. But he could have provided a little more insight. Or kept his mouth shut about the baby/hair sample all together. Just let that part play out the same way BA. They didn’t lose the first time because OQ was distracted that was only part of the problem. The bigger problem was Kendra’s inability to use her wings & the gloves not working. All things that are not OQ’s fault. BA still messed with the future only he didn’t help his friends out when it came to the baby drama – I think he only made it worse.

[statsgirl]

Ridiculous thing # 24303:  Felicty knowing the gene sequencing of Oliver's DNA.  Other than the blood on the arrows that killed Sara last season, there isn't any reason she would need to sequence his DNA much less so often she knows it by sight.

[catrice2]

I couldn't watch the episode again, but I was just struck by how bad the acting was.  Several scenes stuck out in my mind:

Hawkgirl/Man  fighting scene 

Felicity interrupting Hawkgirl/man 

Felicity and Barry when he has the DNA 

Laurel when she jumped out of the van with the canary cry (seriously bad)  

Malcolm and his men showing up 

Cisco's pep talk 

ANY scene with Kendra 

Oliver and the mother of his child 

 

It was almost like everyone was reading the lines from a teleprompter.  Everyone seemed stilted , even the fight sequences were awkward.  Awkward...that is the word to sum up this episode!

[catrox14]

I got a kick out of all of Malcolm's entrances in the Flash and this one. Because it's John Fucking Barrowman and that man knows how to make a campy entrance work.

[kieyra]

It was almost like everyone was reading the lines from a teleprompter.  Everyone seemed stilted , even the fight sequences were awkward.  Awkward...that is the word to sum up this episode!

One could even say ... Hawkward.

I'll see myself out.

[Menrva]

I got a kick out of all of Malcolm's entrances in the Flash and this one. Because it's John Fucking Barrowman and that man knows how to make a campy entrance work.

Too true! And Barry's reaction to MM's second appearance in the Arrow cave was hilarious.

Forgot to add: one of my kids kept insisting that MM looks like my brother in law, so she kept saying, "Hey, look, it's Uncle Bob* again!

*Name changed to protect the innocent

Edited December 4, 2015 by Menrva

[catrox14]

Is your brother in law single? Because John Barrowman is one handsome man. :)

[kismet]

Is it me, or does Vandal look like Captain Lance's cousin? We never saw them in the same room together. xD  I enjoyed Savage's accent; it was new enough to my ear, so it was fun to hear.

Seriously, I saw that too. I kept on doing a double take and this was with some poor streaming, so weird pauses and stuff. But man, they really do look alike. His accent did grow on me. Although it sounds nothing like some one frmo Ancient Egypt, so maybe they will give him some time in a Scandinavian country to explain it.

 

I did love his Robin of Locksley name drop. Now I want a flashback with Robin Hood in it... Or at least a creepy Sheriff of Nottingham to rival Alan Rickman (well CW-level rival) on LoT. That role to this day is why i can;t look at Alan Rickman and not think creepy man, must stay away.

[kismet]

What really hurts me, is that this feels SO MUCH LIKE OLIVER LYING TO LAUREL. He smiled and cuddled with her, knowing he was lying. That was pretty much exactly what happened with Laurel in that flashback over the same woman!!!!

And why would Samantha tell him to lie to his girlfriend? What is her reasoning? I fully understand why she kept it from him, but I'm coming up blanks as to why she would tell him he can't see William unless he lies to Felicity. Like what? He tells you she's special, the best, but you need him to lie? She's expecting Oliver to act exactly like Ollie and SHE'S RIGHT. What is this people? Come on.

When the writers write Oliver and Felicity as themselves, they're a mature, adult relationship. Then they remember happy doesn't sell and they write NONSENSE.

I can't have been the only one that thought Felicity over reacted when she found out in the first timeline that Oliver kept it from her. Like err I actually agreed with Oliver about letting him breathe before going at him. But looking back, I prefer that timeline where everything went to hell and everyone dies because the truth was out.

I'm so sorry I was optimistic about this storyline. Excited even. The only way to bring it back is if he tells her about the child next week.

Like the first timeline, I'd rather she be mad and ice him out but they work it out, than this secrets and lies.

Agh.

Other people may have said similar things or not – I’m still behind on reading through the thread.

 

I hate to bad mouth my own gender… But I think it’s because BabyMama is a vindictive, jealous & pissed off b*tch. She’s had to be a single mother for years because in her mind OQ wouldn’t even give her the time of day to consider a future with her. And then MQ comes in and is just an absolutely horrible person. And now, OQ is reformed and wants to be a part of William’s life. I imagined BabyMama waiving her finger and saying “hell no!”. You think you want to be part of this life. I’m gonna make you grovel & beg for it. I’m gonna make you struggle & hurt for it, because that’s what I had to do. She doesn’t care if he torpedoes his relationships. In her mind, he torpedoed her life – this is only fair repayment.

 

I don’t like this BabyMama one bit. The way she handled the situation was bad from beginning to end. What’s worse is that she is trying to make this all about protecting her son. Which I do think is her motivating factor. But making OQ choosing either lying to his loved ones or being with his son, is not in the best interest of anyone, except herself. Perhaps she thinks it is her time to be a little selfish.

[statsgirl]

I hate to bad mouth my own gender… But I think it’s because BabyMama is a vindictive, jealous & pissed off b*tch. She’s had to be a single mother for years

A single mother with a million dollars, potentially two million.  That buys a lot of help with child care, not to mention that nice house and car and vacations and other things.

 

To quote Tamara PIerce "my heart bleeds buttermilk".

[kismet]

I would have loved that scene any other time but it is tainted and I don't really understand why he was so blissful and smiley. IMO he should at least look a little more conflicted. I did wonder if SA was playing it that he was just so relieved that Felicity is still with him and in his life? I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. 

Bad Acting Choice... SA usually does better. Maybe all the butt clenching is messing up circulation to his acting brain.

 

I'm usually in OQ's corner. I have stuck by him through most of his stupidity & questionable post-island choices (even through s3). But in a few seconds, that last scene really got my blood boiling. The lying and the cuddling, it was a little over the top. I didn't even think about the parallels to LL/OQ scene - but they are there which only make me more pissed. I lost a lot of good will towards OQ in that moment. I know he is between a rock and a hard place. So look stressed about that, not like you just won Mayorship of Cuddle Town.

[wonderwall]

Basically this is baby mama's fault... I don't even like saying her name that's how much I hate her.

 

I'm going to channel all of my negativity to her. 

 

Because I honestly don't get her reasoning. Yes she's a mother. But in that moment I don't think she acted like a mother. I think she acted like a woman who wants retribution for her years as a single mother. It was an eye for an eye for her. She lost everything and she wanted Oliver to lose everything too. 

[kismet]

I get that Oliver is an honorable man and would've liked to have kept his word by not telling anyone...

 

I just really wish that just this once, for the sake of his relationship, he would've acted unnaturally and told her and kept it a secret. 

But that is the kicker - you can't be honorable by lying about said situation to the one person you've promised to be honest with. Lying to maintain honorability just cancels out the honorable. He's not a bad man for lying, considering the ultimatums. It's a horrible & stupid decision that has pretty obvious repercussions written all over the wall. However, he is so far honorable right now.

[wonderwall]

But that is the kicker - you can't be honorable by lying about said situation to the one person you've promised to be honest with. Lying to maintain honorability just cancels out the honorable. He's not a bad man for lying, considering the ultimatums. It's a horrible & stupid decision that has pretty obvious repercussions written all over the wall. However, he is so far honorable right now.

 

All baby mama's fault :p

[Carrie Ann]

Quick Q related to the talk about bad/awkward acting in this episode: I thought SA did a nice job with everything, as usual, and there were a few moments that he handled particularly well, with subtlety and nuance. But I'm confused about what scene(s) reporters were referring to before the ep aired, that were supposed to be his best ever, most heartbreaking, amazing, etc.? I don't think any scene or moment in this episode stood out to that degree, and certainly none came anywhere near my personal gold standard for SA, which is "I don't want to die down here" from 302.

[Password]

LOL take what?

We all need to channel our anger somewhere. Personally I'm channeling it at Oliver and the writers.

And baby mama. Although Oliver had to make his own decisions, baby mama sucks.

[kismet]

I was thinking the same thing during his 2nd talk with Samantha. That they would show Oliver leaving and Felicity would be right outside.

 

This episode definitely didn't make her popular with me. I almost hate her as much as Laurel. 

I was hoping for a twist too. Or just bring FS with you. IDK I wanted something. I had trusted the writers and they destroyed it again.

 

Nope, I most definitely hate her MORE than LL & RP. At least their selfishness I can understand to a certain degree. I can't understand her ultimatum. It pits OQ's other important relationships against his son. No one should be forced to make that decision, when OQ is an innocent in the whole situation. It's not likely he willingly stayed away for 9 years & purposely made BabyMama's or William's life intentionally harder. It reeks vengeful jilted ex-lover to me and that is honestly not a character I tend to like when they emotionally manipulate with children's best interests as their cover story.

[kismet]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was revealed that Vandal Savage is Rasputin. But I also thought VS looked very Rasputin-y.

Didn't they say he was Rasputin? I had to watch the first 15 min like 4 times to get the thing to work and I feel like it was mentioned in someone's explanation of who VS is. My memory wants me to think it was MM or Hawkman... But perhaps it was that betamax video... IDK but I think it was someone who said he has been known by many names over many years & one of them was Rasputin.

 

Also sidenote - Completely feel bad for Iris fans because they so could have given her LL's job in this episode during Part 1. TQ & LL literally just researched the internet for information. How hard would that have been for Iris to do? Maybe we could have been spared the Kendra reveal about the falling rock power. Either way, I am no big fan of LL anymore, but at least the Arrow writers managed to get her more than 1 line and a name-drop during the Flash episode. Iris barely got that line.

[NorthstarATL]

A quick aside from a relative non-comic-er: is the Hawk-person mythology really as dumb as it seems in the show? Like, they just die over and over again? Wake up from personality coma, get stabbed by this one dude, die, get born, repeat? This did not strike me as a captivating mythos. I feel like I'm missing a piece. I also wasn't clear on why stabby dude swore eternal vengeance on them in the first place.

The actress was better in the flashback scenes, but not by much.

Kid storyline is the dumbest thing the show has ever done.

There are/were several sets of Hawks, the original recipe being an Egyptian Prince and Princess who were killed by an evil Priest. They were reincarnated in the 1940s as an archaeologist and social debutante who is menaced by the reincarnated priest. Archaeologist Carter discovers Nth Metal and becomes Hawkman to rescue her, and the adventures begin (she dons a costume later on). In the 1960s a more sci fi friendly reimagining has Katar and Shayera, married police officers from the planet Thanagar chasing a criminal to Earth, where they set up identities as a museum curator and his wife (using the same names as the 40s pair) and acted publicly as Hawkman and Hawkgirl, assigned to study Earth policing after apprehending the criminal Byth and accompanying him to Thanagar. A later retelling would have a similar storyline but "grittier" feel, removing the marriage and giving Shayera the last name Thal and making her "Hawkwoman". Still later the concept was revived with the Kendra Hawkgirl and the repeated reincarnation/death scenario.  A connection was made with Thanagar as the origin of the Nth or Ninth Metal, only with the Thanagarians arriving in the time of Khufu and Chayara. (No Vandal Savage in any of it.) I liked the married police officers because it was the most equitable pairing, even as written in the "unenlightened" 1960s.

     Comic Kendra attempted dating people other than Carter in order to NOT adhere to the curse, so I wonder if show Kendra will do the same. the inevitable threeway between the CW shows will likely bring Cisco back into her orbit, and maybe the story will involve William's adult timeline being messed up because Ollie didn't let him know he was his father, which will result in Felicity hacking the wayback machine or somesuch.

[chaos is welcome]

Basically this is baby mama's fault... I don't even like saying her name that's how much I hate her.

I'm going to channel all of my negativity to her.

Because I honestly don't get her reasoning. Yes she's a mother. But in that moment I don't think she acted like a mother. I think she acted like a woman who wants retribution for her years as a single mother. It was an eye for an eye for her. She lost everything and she wanted Oliver to lose everything too.

Did I imagine her saying "you've already taken everything from me" during that second convo, our something similar? I admit I was only half listening because I hated almost everything I saw (and I started watching at the end of olivers first visit to samantha.) Anyway, when she said that it seemed to me like she meant he did that by knocking her up....momma bear in me was displeased that any mother would say such a thing...hoping I misheard.

I honestly couldn't rectify Oliver's love sick puppy face with his decision to omit the truth. In my head, he didn't lie to f and when g he does, she knows. It basically squished out the one remaining thing I originally loved about the show (grounded in reality, amazing/realistic fight sequences, follow through on story line/attention to detail, Felicity's ability to see Oliver's bs and call him on it.)

[Cthulhudrew]

Ridiculous thing # 24303:  Felicty knowing the gene sequencing of Oliver's DNA.  Other than the blood on the arrows that killed Sara last season, there isn't any reason she would need to sequence his DNA much less so often she knows it by sight.

Maybe she was trying to clone him over the course of the past couple of seasons until they finally hooked up?

[wonderwall]

Did I imagine her saying "you've already taken everything from me" during that second convo, our something similar? I admit I was only half listening because I hated almost everything I saw (and I started watching at the end of olivers first visit to samantha.) Anyway, when she said that it seemed to me like she meant he did that by knocking her up....momma bear in me was displeased that any mother would say such a thing...hoping I misheard.

I honestly couldn't rectify Oliver's love sick puppy face with his decision to omit the truth. In my head, he didn't lie to f and when g he does, she knows. It basically squished out the one remaining thing I originally loved about the show (grounded in reality, amazing/realistic fight sequences, follow through on story line/attention to detail, Felicity's ability to see Oliver's bs and call him on it.)

 

She knows something's up. She just doesn't know what. At least that's what I got by the end of the episode...

 

And I do believe the mother said that... Which... wow. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I did love his Robin of Locksley name drop. Now I want a flashback with Robin Hood in it... Or at least a creepy Sheriff of Nottingham to rival Alan Rickman (well CW-level rival) on LoT. That role to this day is why i can;t look at Alan Rickman and not think creepy man, must stay away.

I bet Arrowverse Robin Hood looks just like Ollie. With the bad wig from the island.

 

Actually, it would be kind of cool if they did do that- have SA play Arrowverse Robin Hood, but dress him up in the classic Green Arrow costume, complete with red feather in the cap.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Cthulhudrew

[bijoux]

A quick aside from a relative non-comic-er: is the Hawk-person mythology really as dumb as it seems in the show? Like, they just die over and over again? Wake up from personality coma, get stabbed by this one dude, die, get born, repeat? This did not strike me as a captivating mythos. I feel like I'm missing a piece. I also wasn't clear on why stabby dude swore eternal vengeance on them in the first place..

 

He kills them because he gets more powerful each time he does.

 

Ridiculous thing # 24303:  Felicty knowing the gene sequencing of Oliver's DNA.  Other than the blood on the arrows that killed Sara last season, there isn't any reason she would need to sequence his DNA much less so often she knows it by sight.

There was the blood on the sword Malcolm brought. Can anyone remember any other occasions onscreen?

 

Did I imagine her saying "you've already taken everything from me" during that second convo, our something similar? I admit I was only half listening because I hated almost everything I saw (and I started watching at the end of olivers first visit to samantha.) Anyway, when she said that it seemed to me like she meant he did that by knocking her up....momma bear in me was displeased that any mother would say such a thing...hoping I misheard.

I remember her saying, "You are asking the world of me." Which I gathered to be her referring to Oliver being involved in their lives. Which is a stupid line for one and untrue according to this "arrangement" for another.

[kes0704]

I finally found the will to watch this episode. I found all the Hawk people stuff boring and a little cringe worthy, Cisco was annoying and I hate Baby Mama. Everything else was so disappointing and towards the end the fast forward button became like a life line to get through the episode.

I hated that they had Oliver lie to Felicity and as many people have pointed out it is all so unnecessary and it made me think back to Season 1 when Oliver tells Laurel that the island scraped away everything he wasn't and left who he really was. So, by extension, I now have no choice but to believe that pre-island, lying asshole Oliver is a part of who he really is at his most basic because it didn't get scraped away. I hope Felicity dumps him as soon as she learns the truth (and seriously there are way too many of his ex-girlfriends hanging around - we're at a count of three now).

Also, if the crossover was supposed to make me want to watch LoT then it failed. The Hawks really tipped me over the edge into nope, not for me because I don't need another show I skim watch with a FFwd button. I was on the fence about it mainly because I can't stand Ray and I have strong aversion to all things Lance family related and planned to watch only the episodes that Oliver was in. But now I know he is an inveterate liar in both the past and the present, I have no desire to see him lie some more on yet another show.

[Sasha]

That has to be the worst ever episode of Arrow. Every time those Hawk people came on I had flashbacks to that horrific show Charmed. Arrow has sunk way below Smallville to reach Charmed levels of suck. Way to go writers! You have managed to combine Charmed and General Hospital for some quality tv viewing. Anyone know when the new season of Daredevil starts?

[Western]

I normally only lurk but this episode bugged me enough to post. *waves and offers cake and throwing tomatoes.*

Oliver had the perfect 'out' and he better use it next episode to let Felicity know although honestly his 'honour' is not tainted by not keeping a promise to someone who old him his kid died so she could keep him out of the kids life.

I was yelling at the screen. "Barry knows, you didn't tell him 'after' the *beep* made you promise, you can get him to tell Felicity with you standing next to him and giving her puppy face. Then F and tell Thea and Thea can go tell the *beep* that either she allows Oliver reasonable access or they'll go to court and you know what happened to the kid of the last Star City mayorial candidate oh and if you tell anyone about this convo, we'll also take you to court." 

^^ that would have at least pretty much been in character and fixed the stupid problem. - Also it'd make up for Barry sticking his oar in re Oliver seeing his son. Barry there is a HUGE difference in your dad being taken from you at around William's age and a kid never knowing his father from birth! -- I really disliked that comment from Barry when his situation is totally different.

I don't like Baby mama, if not for not wanting William (was that another Robin Hood thing as in Will scarlett or coincidental?) full time in Star City, I'd want her victim to a meta that I dunno microwaves her.

I really hated that she blamed Oliver for her becoming pregnant 'runing her life'.

This fully or partly on her.

She had consensual sex with a known party boy (I can't beleive he wasn't tabloid fodder). <-- 100% her choice

No contraception <-- 50/50 on each of 'em.
Telling Oliver she lost the kid <-- 100% on her.  (the 'getting him away from the Queens works for this excuse but still its 100% on her for going along with Moira)
Having the kid <-- 100% on her
Not putting him up for adoption <--- 100% on her  (If it was really about putting him first and out of reach of the Queens he'd be with a loving adoptive family, so you being a single mom is totally on you dearie.)
Only cashing one of the 1 million cheques <-- 100% on her    (I'm a Brit but no way was her home not worth a few 100 thousand $s -- Is she mad because she needed to cash the other one about the time the Queen fortune went poof *throws tomatoes at CW for doing a Fox on billionaires loosing fortunes in nonsense ways*)

 

I'm also pissed that Oliver did not bring up lawyers, don't hire LL and your lawyer should have good arguments (like above) for why Oliver should be on at the least supervised visitation.

 

I was going to also say what someone else typed earlier Oliver standing up to baby mama and saying he's not the guy she knew so of course he's going to tell his SO and his sister about his son so she needs to deal with that. He will promise not to make it public knowledge but his family / friends are allowed to know! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with others that the LOT stuff should not have been in the same episodes as the kid stuff both are 'A' plotlines, honeslty every so often its okay for shows to have the villain / creature / meta of the week as the b plotline.

No Quentin, who in season one was a favourite of mine, but given how they keep making me want to smack him, that's probably a good thing. I like Sara, she at least acknowledges and apologised to LL for being OQ's side peice and so 'dying'. As much as I don't like LL and (often)  like QL, I am fed up of wanting her to have the 'since St Sara is alive now I can finally vent at since childhood having to be the bigger person when she took my things including my BF' converation with her dad. -- I really wanted part of the Lance divorce to have been QL finding out that DL knew that SL was sleeping with OQ and his finally taking LL's side over the 'babys' but no.

I like Sara (who they've actually allowed to grow up from her childhood role of must be protected baby in the family -- now they just need the other Lances to also move on from that mindset -- Please, I really like QL when he's not being a 'daddys lil princess' moron.)  *sorry for tangant*  -- I sometimes like Ray. The Hawks didn't have me wanting to kill them (although they were also not that engaging), so I'm willing to give LOT a shot. -- Saying that its the 'villains' on the team who are really drawing me into watching the show.

I 'want' to see Captain Cold with his action figure, maybe Heatwave can have some he's aiming at and we find out he raided CC's collection for targets.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Best thing in the episode = the donkey.  -- (have they never heard of 'never work with children and animals' you'd think that'd also apply to the 'extras' in a scene. -- Although saying that the donkey was the star of the episode so its good they never heard that phrase.)
2nd best thing = daylight!   -- I know Arrow is most often in the dark to go with its 'gritty' feel but daylight is good to use sometimes and honestly if as a criminal all you have to do to not meet the Arrow team is work in daylight / dusk then that'd be pretty stupid!

3rd best = Malcom being 'evil'

4th = I liked Thea in her limited role in both parts with her comments.
/end ramble.

 

P.S: I loved reading those 'kids comments'. I think that'd make one neat review, the comments of my kids during the episode.  -- Although its a bit worrying being in my 30s and the Hawkeye / Hawkman / Marvel / DC comments being familiar with other characters with my own brother... I'd be the 'arggaaaah' sibling there. :D

[Angel12d]

That's one of the main issues I have with baby mama. They could have made her easy to sympathize with after Moira paid her off but by not cashing in that check she basically took full responsibility for the lie she told Oliver. Moira may have started it (and she was wrong) but Samantha continued the lie and she was the one who deprived Oliver of the chance and right to know his son.

 

And then to make matters worse she says that Oliver owes her and then sets all these demands? I'm sorry, but she's the one who lied for nine years. I don't care if she is the mother trying to protect her child. She has no right to set all these ridiculous conditions, especially when Oliver has legal rights. 

 

I just hate that they rely so heavily on these sexist tropes - the bitchy baby mama acting out of line and like a woman scorned. It's tired .

Edited December 4, 2015 by Angel12d

[apinknightmare]

I didn't think that Samantha was being vindictive toward Oliver in payback for years of single motherhood. She took Moira's check but never cashed it, and yet still called Oliver and told him that she had a miscarriage. She did that on her own because she decided she didn't want Oliver in the kid's life. There wasn't anything stopping her from telling him she was going to have the kid and didn't want him involved at all. She told him she lost the baby because she wanted to do that. 

 

She comes off as being vindictive and bitchy because the writers gave her stupid and contradictory reasoning for doing what she's doing, all so that Oliver could have motivation to keep a secret from Felicity and everyone else. 

 

We don't really know how long the knew each other in the past - I got the feeling she might have been someone he knew from school and had sex with on a whim? But that was ten (did the show up this time frame? It seems off, whatever) years ago, and the only Oliver she knows now is the person she reads about and sees in the news. All she'd know is that his friend and mother were murdered, he signed away his parents' company to a villain, and that he's running for mayor. That's literally all she knows about the guy now, and even though Oliver says those things made him a different person, she really has no idea if that's true. None of those things indicate that he isn't still a complete dirtbag. 

 

She is right to be wary of him. Giving Oliver ground rules under which she'll allow him to see/get to know their son is the right thing to do. Oliver would understand if she wanted to let him put his toes in the water first to see how everything worked out. You don't want to introduce a kid to his father and then have said father decide that maybe it's too much for him at this point in time before he bails, and the kid is left confused and hurt.

 

But instead of doing all that, she decides outright she doesn't want Oliver in the kid's life but then says he can see the kid as long as he keeps it a secret from everyone. Not letting it get out to the public? Reasonable demand. Keeping it from his girlfriend? Unreasonable. What could possibly be her motivation for that other than to be nasty? If she doesn't trust Oliver's judgment to the point where she's worried about what kind of person he is and who he surrounds himself with, then why in the hell is she letting Oliver play with her kid unsupervised the very first time they meet?

 

Reasonable solution: telling Oliver she didn't want Felicity meeting the kid until Oliver and Samantha had figured out what kind of arrangement they were going to have as far as parental rights/visitation, or telling Oliver that she didn't want Felicity meeting the kid until she (Samantha) had gotten to know her. But, then again, she didn't take the time to get to know Oliver again before letting him meet his son, so...all her talk about being protective of the kid is flimsy, and the secret-keeping comes off as a nasty ploy. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

I didn't think that Samantha was being vindictive toward Oliver in payback for years of single motherhood. She took Moira's check but never cashed it, and yet still called Oliver and told him that she had a miscarriage. She did that on her own because she decided she didn't want Oliver in the kid's life. There wasn't anything stopping her from telling him she was going to have the kid and didn't want him involved at all. She told him she lost the baby because she wanted to do that. 

 

She comes off as being vindictive and bitchy because the writers gave her stupid and contradictory reasoning for doing what she's doing, all so that Oliver could have motivation to keep a secret from Felicity and everyone else. 

 

We don't really know how long the knew each other in the past - I got the feeling she might have been someone he knew from school and had sex with on a whim? But that was ten (did the show up this time frame? It seems off, whatever) years ago, and the only Oliver she knows now is the person she reads about and sees in the news. All she'd know is that his friend and mother were murdered, he signed away his parents' company to a villain, and that he's running for mayor. That's literally all she knows about the guy now, and even though Oliver says those things made him a different person, she really has no idea if that's true. None of those things indicate that he isn't still a complete dirtbag. 

 

Initially it doesn't come across as vindictive but there are shades of it there, especially because Oliver tells her he has someone important in his life and he doesn't want to lie to her and Samantha still insists that he does. That's why it comes across as woman scorned to me, in a way, because most people would know keeping a secret from the person you love is basically setting them up to fail. It just felt so spiteful. 

 

As for how they knew each other in the past, the way Oliver spoke about her to Moira gave the impression that it was more than a one night stand. I don't think it was serious or anything like that but I do think they were probably having a fling. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Angel12d

[Western]

The writers totally screwed over all parties in the 'kid' plotline.

As you say they could easily have made Samantha sympathetic but they don't and you're right she is contradictory. I'm female but not a parent but even my instinct is 'you get to know the guy for a while, then see if he can behave well in supervised by you interactions after you've got to know him then allow him unsupervised visits.'

I'm fed up with the writers either making me dislike a character I like or not being cinsistant so that I hate someone who could be reasonable. -- I thought she was paid twice by Moira one cheque = say lost baby; 2nd cheque when you move far away so to me she seems to have cashed one cheque. 

I wasn't 100% focused on the episode or too busy yelling at the laptop but I thought she said something akin to 'you ruined my life' which is what really bugs me. -- I'm not really sure I want to sit through it again even to fast forward to find their scenes.

She's coming over as vindictive which is not on, instead of protective which I'd 100% agree with. -- I'm actually only suggesting the 'strong arm to see' tactics by Thea after Barry tells because they want to keep the kid in to use as a plot device. As someone who has not had kids to not have a 50/50 chance of passing on a crippling illness my personal take is be a parent and do what's best for the kid which would be to tell Felicity and not see the child because it'd endanger him.

I'd have much rather they did what you suggested plotwise since they want the kid as a plot device, that'd make her a good and protective parent and then I could root for her.

 

P.S: trying to get the hang of the site, so please bear with me. Guessing the multi quote we just pick the one we want?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Western

[apinknightmare]

Initially it doesn't come across as vindictive but there are shades of it there, especially because Oliver tells her he has someone important in his life and he doesn't want to lie to her and Samantha still insists that he does. That's why it comes across as woman scorned to me, in a way, because most people would know keeping a secret from the person you love is basically setting them up to fail. It just felt so spiteful. 

 

As for how they knew each other in the past, the way Oliver spoke about her to Moira gave the impression that it was more than a one night stand. I don't think it was serious or anything like that but I do think they were probably having a fling. 

 

I get where you're coming from, but I truly don't think that she was written to be spiteful and vindictive - I think her coming off that way was completely unintended because of the idiotic way they set up this lie. I think we were supposed to believe that she was an honorable person and a good mother, who was wary of Oliver and his past/life/world in Star City. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I would take Samantha gratuitously hating every woman named Felicity ever since she rage-quit the TV show Felicity as motivation, rather than what we got.

[Angel12d]

I get where you're coming from, but I truly don't think that she was written to be spiteful and vindictive - I think her coming off that way was completely unintended because of the idiotic way they set up this lie. I think we were supposed to believe that she was an honorable person and a good mother, who was wary of Oliver and his past/life/world in Star City. 

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know 100% it wasn't supposed to come across the way it did. Just like we were supposed to like Laurel using Sara's voice in s3 instead of being grossed out by it. Also like we were supposed to think Ray was charming and endearing rather than someone with stalker tendencies. But it still felt that way to me. There's a total disconnect between intent and what's shown on screen.

[apinknightmare]

I wasn't 100% focused on the episode or too busy yelling at the laptop but I thought she said something akin to 'you ruined my life' which is what really bugs me. -- I'm not really sure I want to sit through it again even to fast forward to find their scenes.

 

No, she didn't say anything like that. She just said that she didn't want her kid around Oliver because she didn't want William ending up like him, punching paparazzi and getting young girls pregnant. That last part was just...you had sex with him, lady!