S04.E08: Legends Of Yesterday (2)

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yes, back to the Egypt stuff for a minute.  Savage comes across as a creepster who is stalking Kendra because he is interested in her sexually.  Walking into her bedchamber when she's occupied with Carter (like, don't you knock dude?), and stroking her face while he states that he's going to know her as Carter has "known her"? Yuck.  I guess he was trapped in a 4000 year old romantic comedy, or something.  

[Carrie Ann]

That's exactly what Oliver originally thought. But then Barry went back and told him that fucking with time messes everything up, and he would be stupid to keep that secret. And what did he do? 

 

The stupid thing, of course. 

 

Right, I mean, I thought it was obvious that that's what Oliver thought. But that doesn't make any sense, and if he knew Felicity the way I believe he does, he would know that. He would know there would have to be more to it than just "You have a kid?! Dude, I'm out." And if he doesn't think that, then WHY would he still want to be with her? That Felicity sounds awful!

[BkWurm1]

I need to step away from my Olicity rage/disappointment for a moment to say the Egyptian flashbacks were legit TERRIBLE and I cringed so hard watching them. So many white people for ancient Egypt. Uh, show. Please get it right.

 

And the Hawks and VS didn't improve whatsoever so nope. That's a no for LoT for me. 

I fanwanked that Kendra was just filtering her past lives memories through her current life experience. 

[apinknightmare]

What I'm puzzling over is how anyone thought this Oliver lie was a good idea. I mean so much of the press they've gotten so far this season has been people marveling at how well they've presented a happy, mature relationship between two adults.

 

I think it's probably because they were planning/breaking this ep before they had gotten any feedback. But they're always determined to do dumb shit, so I don't think it would've mattered anyway. 

[AyChihuahua]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK.

 

Come on now. Let's not go too crazy! He hasn't cheated on her repeatedly, he hasn't got another woman pregnant while they're together. He hasn't repeatedly lied to her (okay yes, this is a big lie but work with me here). And he hasn't stuck his dick in her sister. There is no comparison. 

I didn't mean I think that, I mean the show was making that point.

 

Btw, all Oliver has to do is tell Felicity and tell her she can't tell anyone right now.  Felicity ain't gonna go running to Baby Mama.  It's SO DUMB.

[Password]

What really hurts me, is that this feels SO MUCH LIKE OLIVER LYING TO LAUREL. He smiled and cuddled with her, knowing he was lying. That was pretty much exactly what happened with Laurel in that flashback over the same woman!!!!

And why would Samantha tell him to lie to his girlfriend? What is her reasoning? I fully understand why she kept it from him, but I'm coming up blanks as to why she would tell him he can't see William unless he lies to Felicity. Like what? He tells you she's special, the best, but you need him to lie? She's expecting Oliver to act exactly like Ollie and SHE'S RIGHT. What is this people? Come on.

When the writers write Oliver and Felicity as themselves, they're a mature, adult relationship. Then they remember happy doesn't sell and they write NONSENSE.

I can't have been the only one that thought Felicity over reacted when she found out in the first timeline that Oliver kept it from her. Like err I actually agreed with Oliver about letting him breathe before going at him. But looking back, I prefer that timeline where everything went to hell and everyone dies because the truth was out.

I'm so sorry I was optimistic about this storyline. Excited even. The only way to bring it back is if he tells her about the child next week.

Like the first timeline, I'd rather she be mad and ice him out but they work it out, than this secrets and lies.

Agh.

[popgoesculture]

I think everyone's said everything so much better than I could hope to: this episode was awful. Just completely terrible, from the character regression/assassination in the respective cases of Oliver and Felicity (please, NO one takes that much of a 180 and suddenly says "you don't love me" after a 30 second conversation. Especially not Felicity, who is used to getting Oliver to talk and giving him time/space. That was terrible writing.).

 

And the pacing on this episode was ridiculous -- the scenes with the Hawkpeople-I-don't-care-about and Cisco were so boring and took up too much time, and again, what was the point of the Arrow characters being there? There was literally no reason for this to be a crossover. No interactions between fun characters (let's have Laurel meet Caitlin! Let's have Iris and Diggle! Let's have more Thea and Barry interaction! Why NOT?), no insight into the characters was revealed. Instead, we got whiplash watching Oliver and Felicity fall apart in an unbelieveable way, and then there were no stakes whatsoever because we all knew about the time travel early on... this was just really terrible writing, and it rested on the strength of characters (and actors) I'm not invested in/that were not compelling.

 

And please, show, stop with the magic and nonsensical nature of everyone. What is the point of doing the Connor storyline if you're NOT actually going to use Connor? This is ridiculous and pointless (not that I think "hey, comics!" is a good excuse). And so April Nardini... sigh. 

[BkWurm1]

Question: Why did no one pick up the blood-dripping arrow with Savage's blood on it? Since you have Caitlin around, why not have her go after a bio-angle to takedown/take out Vandal, if not just slow him enough to buy Our Heroes some time? In case the tech or the mystic stuff ran into snags? ( See: first time line.)  My head cannon has Malcolm sneak back, like he did at the end, and grab it up. For Science.

 

This!  I actually thought that Oliver was being sneaky so he could get a blood sample, but yeah, nope.  No smart Oliver in this episode. 

[AyChihuahua]

Devil's advocate:

It doesn't matter that he's scared and worried that she's going to dump him.  He has no right to keep this huge secret THAT TOTALLY AFFECTS HER LIFE from her.  I'd be okay with him waiting a couple days, but it is going to be a lot longer than a couple days.  His excuse will be that he was scared to lose her...His excuse IS ALWAYS that he's scared to lose people.  That does not justify, at all, lying to and manipulating people.  It's nearly literally S3 all over again.  Plus, next week stuff 

with the proposal makes it 1000x worse. She'd be the kid's STEPMOM, and he doesn't tell her about his existence?

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[La Dee Da]

To be fair, guys, we know that when Arrow says it's going to be sunshine and unicorns, eventually the unicorn is going to stab us in the throat!

For a cross-over that was billed to be like a two hour movie, it was pretty disjointed, in terms of pacing the action scenes and characterization. I thought Hawkman was a little creepy.

Oliver even said to Barry that he thought it was better that he left things alone. I thought that was the out, right there, not the stupid shit the writers have done now!!

Me too - I thought they were going to get back to the mature and thoughtful approach they've taken to date. There is plenty of room for angst in that approach - Oliver being adamant that William needed to kept at arms' length and Felicity speaking to her own experiences. Samantha could have been hesitant, wanting to get to know Oliver and the people in his life before letting him into his son 's life (which plays into his self-loathing and need for redemption). There was even room if they wanted to delay Oliver telling Felicity, as in the absence of the dna test, he could have tried to convince himself that Samantha was telling the truth about him not being the dad and eventually needing to talk about it. Instead, we got something frustratingly lazy.

I guess it's still possible this is where the show ends up but I doubt it - Barry said there were time travel consequences. I bet Damian kidnaps the kid or Samantha dies as a result of some Cental City shenanigans and Oliver is forced to tell Felicity and the gang (like his sister!) And then pre-time travel fight part ll. Blllllllaaaaaaahhh!

Is this Earth six?

Alternate earths will be the new time travel re-set.

Two final words for Malcolm: shop vac.

[catrox14]

Oh gods. I thought I was watching a bad B movie with those Egyptian flashbacks. Like WTF were they thinking with that?? HOLY CRAP. 

[Ruby25]

I just have to come in here and say how much it really irritates me that Barry just feels free to call Oliver "Ollie" now. I'm sorry, but aren't the only people who call him that his family or people who've known him since childhood? Have Diggle or Felicity ever called him that? That's just something that bugs me- I kinda wish he'd called him on it.

[Guest]

So…was the seismic shift Oliver being a complete lying bastard or was it the time travel crap?

[EmeraldArcher]

They better kill Laurel to make this up to me.

LOL! This made me laugh so hard!

Right now, I hate being an Olicity fan. But, it must be even worse to be a Laurel fan tonight. She was as inoffensive as possible tonight, and people are still clamoring for her death. It's like, "I hate Oliver's stupid, lying face forever! He doesn't deserve Felicity. Baby Mama is a horrible, lying bitch. Laurel better die!" ;-)

We have a few loyal LL/BC/KC fans here, and they're good sports to put up with so much crap from us.

[bijoux]

Seriously, what does Malcolm do? I feel like him pulling something awful would be the one thing that is in character.

[Lady Calypso]

And this is why I want Felicity to force Oliver into therapy for next season. Dude will never get over his PTSD/trauma from the island. And his happiness with Felicity has lasted this long because he's allowed himself to be happy, but not to deal with his issues. And that is so what he needs to work on before he can actually be in a functioning relationship with anybody.

[calliope1975]

Me too - I thought they were going to get back to the mature and thoughtful approach they've taken to date. There is plenty of room for angst in that approach - Oliver being adamant that William needed to kept at arms' length and Felicity speaking to her own experiences. Samantha could have been hesitant, wanting to get to know Oliver and the people in his life before letting him into his son 's life (which plays into his self-loathing and need for redemption). There was even room if they wanted to delay Oliver telling Felicity, as in the absence of the dna test, he could have tried to convince himself that Samantha was telling the truth about him not being the dad and eventually needing to talk about it. Instead, we got something frustratingly lazy.

 

This is what's so mindbogglingly infuriating. This story writes itself. WITHOUT the lies. There could still have been angst, character growth, etc., but it would have made sense and been done in character. Gahhhh!!! I am having S3 flashbacks right now, and I don't know what to do with my feelings. Playing Deadpool helped, but I'm going to need more than a snarky, 4th wall breaking assassin, wanna be hero to lower my rage. Hello wine.

[quarks]

Interestingly enough, I thought most of the best parts of last night's Flash episode were the Arrow parts, and almost all of the best parts of tonight's Arrow episode were the Flash parts. Hmm.

 

Good things:

 

1. Vandal Savage complaining about ridiculous costumes while wearing a ridiculous costume. Hee.

 

2. Thea Queen's snark. Also hee.

 

3. And Hawkgirl!  Ok, yes, yes, she was frequently stuck in what Arrow wanted me to believe was ancient Egypt and which I chose to believe was a major practical joke played on the audience (I did laugh, so, that worked) and yes she ended up going with the guy who was all mean to her and in fact, if I understood the flashbacks correctly, which I may not have because I was laughing so hard, between the props issues and the "meteors," actually started this entire thing, instead of the nice guy that worked with her to help her gain her powers/memories, but --

 

Wait, where was I?

 

Oh, right! HAWKGIRL IS ON MY SCREEN AND SHE FLIES AND SHE'S AWESOME.

 

4. No evil islands filled with evil archaeologists/drug dealers! This was a plus. For me, at least.

 

5. The Barry/Felicity friendship, and the way she immediately - in the first timeline, at least - got him to turn over the DNA evidence to her.

 

6. The Barry/Oliver moments, and the Oliver/Cisco moments. Particularly loved Oliver saying that he doesn't hug and Barry explaining the issues with that.

 

7. At least someone has been paying attention to lessons learned from earlier seasons! Ok, it wasn't Oliver, but thank you for the Time Travel Has Problems reminder, Barry and Cisco!

 

8. Malcolm Merlyn! Why exactly he's bringing Vandal Savage back in a little box after spending two episodes telling us that Vandal Savage is all evil I couldn't tell you but, it's Malcolm and he's evil so I'm going to go with it.  Also, he's back to making Evil Threats again which is the sort of Malcolm Merlyn I need.

 

9.  I wasn't thrilled with the plot/dialogue for them - more on this in a bit - but the acting from Amell and EBR was outstanding in both.

 

10. A little Captain Cold action figure! And Oliver's kid is playing with it! I LOVE THIS.

 

11. And I'll say this - apart from the Samantha storyline, I loved Oliver in this episode.  Sure, his first plan flopped, and he certainly should have done something about Vandal Savage's ashes, but otherwise, he was tactical! He made great points about trying a new way! He got Cisco, and thus Kendra, to unlock their capabilities!

 

Also, he met Samantha, but that's under the Bad Things.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. "Ancient Egypt." Look, Arrow, we are all aware that you are on a budget. Which is why, just maybe, you should not try to build an ancient Egyptian set, much less try to do so with a quick redress of your Nanda Parbat set - although, kudos to whoever decided to switch out the Nanda Parbat bedding for what looked like a nice bedset straight from Walmart.  

 

And the less said about the original shot of what I guess was supposed to be some version of Karnak, the better. 

 

2. That said, Arrow, you create an awesome plot featuring a magical staff that can SUMMON EVIL GLOWING METEORS (they were evil meteors, right?) and instead of focusing on that, you turn that into a throwaway point instead of having Vandal Savage summon evil meteors?

 

3. I know, I know, I just defended uber Felicity over on the Flash forum, and usually I'm all for this, but a) how exactly did she get the 1975 Betamax tape to play that quickly through her laptop to the screen without added equipment, and b) how exactly did she know about ancient Egypt getting hit by meteor swarms?

 

4. For that matter, and not to dwell on the ancient Egypt problems, because I don't actually know much about ancient Egypt (although apparently I know more than the writers do) but Wikipedia tells me that ancient Egypt started more or less in 3150 BC and ended more or less around 30 BC (Cleopatra) which is about 3000 years so exactly how long were these meteor storms going on for anyway? Why am I even asking, given that we only got to see one room and one hallway of what was supposedly "ancient Egypt"?

 

5. This is a minor point, but what was up with Oliver's disappearing/reappearing motorcycle?

 

6. I'm going to regret asking this, I know, but since the Lazarus Pit is now filled with soap bubbles, how exactly is Malcolm planning on getting Vandal Savage back?

 

7. Cisco fans on Flash can now join Arrow fans in complaining about the character development he gets on the other show, instead of his own!

 

8. I know it was an emergency, but what was with the museum robbery, Barry? Little kids love looking at meteorites!

 

Bad things:

 

1. Holy production issues, Batman! I know the producers/writers/etc. were talking about having issues with this, and I realize that by the time you reach the editing room you're generally more or less stuck with what you have, but when a number of people on Twitter start asking about the donkey in the background of your shot (which, to be fair, was more interesting than what was happening in the foreground of that shot, but that's another issue), you have a problem. Granted, the same problem The Fellowship of the Ring had in one (now cleaned up) scene, but The Fellowship of the Ring followed that up with almost impeccable production, so people could just laugh about the car and move on. That...did not happen in this episode, looking at you, all of the CGI work in the Egypt scenes.

 

2. Bigger than the production issues, though, were the sheer number of characters in this episode, which meant in turn that nobody had time to breathe, which in turn meant that nobody except for Thea had the chance to explain, either to other characters or, more critically, the audience, what their motivations were, to the major detriment of just about everyone except for Thea, Laurel, Diggle and Caitlin. Not at all coincidentally, with the slight exception of Thea, all four of those characters were mostly window dressing.  (Iris, Joe and Patty fans should probably be relieved that they were left out - Caitlin got what, two snarky lines and otherwise just stood there.)

 

Particularly underserved: the Hawks. I like Kendra, but the switch between "I don't know what I'm doing!" to "WARRIOR" to "FORGET WARRIOR, PRIESTESS!" to "ACTION PRIESTESS" was all...remember when this show, and Flash, actually worked on training sequences and developing powers? Like, you know, YESTERDAY WHEN BARRY WAS TRYING TO RUN FASTER? Yes, that. Hawkman, meanwhile, just mostly got to say a couple of mean things, and make out with Kendra in a fake looking hallway. I'm happy that they've decided to be heroes, but WHY?

 

3. This is more of a Flash question, but if Barry can still run fast enough to change time, then why aren't he and Zoom changing time when they go running round and round especially since Barry is chasing him but is complaining that his top speed isn't enough????

 

4. Samantha. Yeee.....ikes. Ok, full credit to her for not cashing in Moira's check, minus several hundred points for the rest of her behavior in the episode, starting with a) lying to Oliver the first time he showed up, knowing full well that he could, if he wanted, demand a DNA test, b) failing to acknowledge that he just might have grown up a little since his previous years, which even Laurel, who has even more to complain about, has acknowledged, c) emotionally blackmailing him, d) trying to keep a kid from his father, e) telling Oliver that he can't tell anyone else about the kid. How exactly do you think this is going to work out, Samantha? Are you trying to sabotage his current relationships? How exactly is that going to help the situation? f) if you're serious about thinking that Oliver is going to disrupt the kid's life, then the response is not "you can't tell anyone about this," and "I'm going to let you, despite your very questionable history and the fact that I just pulled some serious shit on you, hang out alone with my kid," but "you can't see the kid." and g) seriously, Samantha, you've been lying to him for years now, and you're trying to take the moral high ground here? No.

 

Result: the character originally introduced to us as a nice girl managed, in one scene, to become worse than Laurel in this episode. Er, yay? 

 

5. The other problem with this bit of emotional manipulation: it all happened so quickly (see, pacing problems above) that Arrow never explained why Oliver telling people about this would be a problem for Samantha. Oliver, sure, as we saw, but as long as these other people never come by, why is this an issue? Why is it so important to Samantha that this stay a secret? We needed two lines of dialogue to understand this, and we didn't get these lines.

 

6.  Basic rule of television, Arrow: you can't expect most fans to remember that Felicity does have reason to believe - or at least did have reason to believe - that Oliver might not fully trust her, and vice versa, unless you remind us, in dialogue.  Which you didn't do, because of the above mentioned pacing issues and time spent on questionable ancient Egyptian scenes, which meant that I got a bit of whiplash from last night's delightfully happy Felicity and tonight's "I can't be with someone who doesn't trust me!"  Build this sort of thing up, Arrow.

 

6. Oliver.

 

Ok, so, to start with, it felt incredibly out of character for Oliver not to go to Felicity after the DNA tests to get her opinion.  (And a bit out of character for him not to ask her to do the DNA tests in the first place, but let's move on.) Just a couple of episodes ago, he was terrified that he was going to lose her, not to mention that so far this season, he's gone to her with everything - his concerns about returning to Star City in the first place, the plans for his mayoral run, his frustration with Diggle, and so on. 

 

I can handwave this only in a few ways: one, Oliver did say, earlier in the season, that he didn't care that Felicity lied to him - but then immediately followed that up by saying that he thought they were supposed to be together as partners, which kinda contradicts that, so, er, never mind. Let's move on to the other two. Two, he probably wanted to check things out before letting Felicity know that their lives had yet another complication. Three, he was planning on telling her once they were done with Vandal Savage, but first, Samantha hit him with the emotional blackmail, and second, Felicity found out before the Vandal Savage stuff was done, and then Oliver died before they could talk things out. My own guess is that yes, Oliver would have told her, and that he wasn't lying when he said he had to process. But let's face it: none of this made Oliver look good.

 

And then, time travel.

 

Wow, did this mess things up.

 

Because on the one hand, I want to give Oliver a pass here: leaving aside the emotional blackmail question, he knows, because Barry told him, that when he and Felicity discussed this, everyone ended up dead. I can see him wanting to avoid a repeat of this, and I'm totally on Oliver's side on this.  I'll also note that Oliver's first response to finding this out was not to decide to lie to Felicity, but to just avoid his son completely and stay out of the kid's life - partly for the good of the kid, partly because it was very obvious that Samantha didn't want him around, and also, so that nobody would die again. He changed his mind only after Barry pointed out that the kid deserved to know his father.

 

But although all of this is very nice, there's three big issues: first, Barry also told Oliver that the more he changes the timeline, the worse things get. Not telling Felicity is changing the timeline, unless Barry did tell her. Which is a maybe. And second, Oliver just went through two seasons of learning that keeping secrets from loved ones and family members ends up seriously pissing them off, getting his ex girlfriend killed, ticking off his best friend, and turning his little sister into a bloodlust driven vigilante. Also turning Laurel into the Black Canary, like THANK YOU LIES. VERY HELPFUL THERE. And third, in the end, Oliver is lying to his girlfriend about the existence of his kid. Even if he is doing it to keep people from dying.

 

Also the kid isn't dead. Or a metahuman. That kinda sucks.

 

And now, Laurel:

 

Laurel was - wait for it - USEFUL! It's another little Arrow miracle, everyone!  Granted, I cracked up at the way virtually everyone ignored her Canary Cry, and the way the show also completely ignored that she, not Felicity, was the one actually dating Oliver at the time, and thus the only person in the entire group with an actual right to get upset. What happens? Samantha, Felicity, Oliver and even Barry get upset. Laurel is all, yeah, what's with these Egyptian priests. Laurel, for what may be the first time ever in Arrow's history, I identify with you.  And she was nice enough not to drag her mother into this mess, so, again, Laurel, you go. 

 

Apart from this, she was only window dressing this episode.

[Chaser]

Can I just say I really love Italia Ricci calling BS on this whole storyline on twitter? lol

 

It gives me life that SA's future cousin-in-law (I have no idea if that is even a thing) is so vocal.

[WaitandHope]

I read the early thoughts on the episode before watching and had super LOW expectations. I also had already speculated that they pulled the fan screening because they were worried about unhappy fan reaction hurting press, ratings and causing fan meltdowns on twitter (which I still believe is true - and was network dictated.)

Plus, the Hawks totally take me out of the action because it's all a little too silly to me. (Which is hilarious because I watched soaps for 25 years - so I can suspend the disbelief and accept a lot of silliness.)

So all that said, I watched and was a little relieved.

I think there were good things:

Barry/Oliver consistently great

Hawkgirl outperformed by expectations

Proper use of MM (I hate him, but at least I think we are supposed to)

Thea - underutilized, still good

Cisco was very effective: as a friend, a supporter and as a problem-solving genius.

The rest of Team Flarrow - sans Felicity - superfluous but harmless.

Oliver makes Barry so much more LIKABLE. I don't know that the opposite for me is true. But I did think SA acted very well here.

So as to the elephant, first I don't get PlotDeviceMom's rule about no one knowing. Just fear I guess. No one knowing can make it all go away... *It'd make more sense if she knew how people were always trying to kill Oliver - and his family.

I have a lot of family law expertise. While we all know Oliver's heart is in the right place, she would have a great case to keep him away from his 9-year old son in court without a heckuvalot of supervised visits first, as well as drug and psychological testing. Frustrating perhaps since he's resurrected bio dad - but true.

Yes, biological parents have rights, but the first rule is best interests of the child. To the outside world, I'm not sure he's a stable, well-adjusted, responsible adult who would come off very well in a court of law. (I'm not sure he's even that for all of us who love and root for him.)

Finally Felicity. I got it. I didn't like it but I got it. She still thinks he's going to lie to her and cut her out and make decisions without her. She overreacted in the fight and break-up. He had only just found out. But her experience with him makes this an understandable reaction. They do have trust issues.

Oliver doesn't even care when Felicity lies to him - (see 4.01) - which is also an issue but at least he's not a hypocrite I guess. But I think Felicity cares when he lies to her. Each successive lie has had some holdover effects. This one clearly will as well.

I hated them, but I could at least understand some of their reactions and choices- at least some. It was stupid and not in keeping with either character's growth. But people have regressions mixed in with progressions. Oh and my aforementioned family court rule no. 1: people can be really stupid when it comes to their kids.

Silver lining, I think this makes her less likely to be the death. I would be more worried if they remained happy and without stupid angst.

Edited December 3, 2015 by WaitandHope

[apinknightmare]

Did Moira never once check to see if that check had been cashed? She would've put an alert on that check, no one can tell me otherwise. Don't make Queen B Moira an incompetent villain, show. come on. 

[Trini]

To be fair, guys, we know that when Arrow says it's going to be sunshine and unicorns, eventually the unicorn is going to stab us in the throat!

Heee! Sorry you can't have nice things, Arrow fandom.

 

Two final words for Malcolm: shop vac.

Even my mom was like, "Did they not sweep him up??" You'd think at least one of the Hawks would want those ashes as a souvenir.

[quarks]

What I'm puzzling over is how anyone thought this Oliver lie was a good idea. I mean so much of the press they've gotten so far this season has been people marveling at how well they've presented a happy, mature relationship between two adults.

Had they already decided to have this be the storyline and thought no one would notice? We're they cackling and rubbing their hands together thinking how clever they were going to be throwing a spanner in the works? We're they all, "Oh crap, we're going to screw that up - Oh well!"? What were they thinking?

Plus, no one is talking about the spin-off this episode was supposed to help launch. They've managed to mostly detail any buzz about the two characters that this episode helped introduce. Though come to think of it, maybe that's why.

 

They were already filming these crossover episodes before they had the chance to get much feedback for episodes 1 through 7. The fan reaction from this episode might be dealt with in episodes 17 on.

[catrox14]

I will say that Malcolm was rather terrifying when he threatened Oliver and I love that he played an angle with taking Savage's ashes.  Maybe Malcolm will be the big bad again.

Did Moira never once check to see if that check had been cashed? She would've put an alert on that check, no one can tell me otherwise. Don't make Queen B Moira an incompetent villain, show. come on. 

 

My eyes nearly rolled out of my head on that one. I mean seriously.

[Chaser]

They were already filming these crossover episodes before they had the chance to get much feedback for episodes 1 through 7. The fan reaction from this episode might be dealt with in episodes 17 on.

Considering taking a break until ep. 18.

[Ruby25]

Yeah, when everyone finds out about the kid, I wonder if they're going to remember that Laurel's actually the one who's got the right to be the most upset about that.

[AyChihuahua]

And this is why I want Felicity to force Oliver into therapy for next season. Dude will never get over his PTSD/trauma from the island. And his happiness with Felicity has lasted this long because he's allowed himself to be happy, but not to deal with his issues. And that is so what he needs to work on before he can actually be in a functioning relationship with anybody.

Honestly, this feels more like Ollie to me than Oliver with his PTSD.  There's definitely some fear of losing Felicity, but there's also a flavor of him getting away with stuff and so doing it again, expecting to get away with it again.  It's really quite disturbing.  This is the first time I remember seeing Ollie in the series outside of flashbacks.

[paigow]

Malcolm might use the "Sandvage" to restore his Lazarus Pit...Captain Cold action figure is probably made in Nanda Parbat...

[Lady Calypso]

Honestly, this feels more like Ollie to me than Oliver with his PTSD.  There's definitely some fear of losing Felicity, but there's also a flavor of him getting away with stuff and so doing it again, expecting to get away with it again.  It's really quite disturbing.  This is the first time I remember seeing Ollie in the series outside of flashbacks.

 

I feel you. It's like they forgot about season 4 Oliver, and smashed pre-pilot Ollie and season 3 Oliver together. I can only defend Oliver so far, because I'm frustrated.  But then I looked at who wrote the episode and I realize that LOL, it was Marc and (surprisingly) Greg Berlanti. So.... 

[paigow]

I will say that Malcolm was rather terrifying when he threatened Oliver

Seemed a bit redundant, if Thea got killed by Oliver's bad plan, odds are Oliver would also be dead.  

[lemotomato]

I feel you. It's like they forgot about season 4 Oliver, and smashed pre-pilot Ollie and season 3 Oliver together. I can only defend Oliver so far, because I'm frustrated.  But then I looked at who wrote the episode and I realize that LOL, it was Marc and (surprisingly) Greg Berlanti. So....

Berlanti was responsible for another bad baby momma storyline on Everwood, so I'm actually not surprised. Should've seen this coming...

[Orion]

Here's my take on what Felicity said in the first argument.

 

She figures out something is bothering Oliver. Ask him about it. He says he needs time and she accepts that.

 

She finds out that Barry is hiding something. Wants to see it. Barry says, "Oliver specifically asked me..." Which if I was Felicity I would have assumed that that sentence ended with  "not to show you."

 

So now she knows that Oliver has suspected/known since that morning (at least). Long enough for him to get a DNA sample from the kid. He went to Barry to run that DNA test.  A test she has run a bunch of times in the past. So he chose to go around her and take it to Barry.

 

The next time we see Oliver it is night time. Time has passed since Oliver found out and since Felicity found out.

 

Felicity, "Everyone is waiting for you." Again implying time has passed since anyone has seen Oliver. Oliver, "Sorry just something I had to take care of." Lie by omission. Felicity, "So I guess you are off the secret keeping wagon." Oliver, "That's not it. I think Damien Darhk has someone operating in Central City so I sent Barry to run down a lead." LIE, not just a lie, a story he invented to cover the truth. Felicity, "This kind of lead. (shows him the DNA report) He didn't know what he was giving me. But I've run enough test on your blood to recognize your DNA sequence anywhere. You had him run a paternity test didn't you." Oliver, "Look. Felicity."

Felicity, "Stop. I can not hear another lie." Oliver, "It's more complicated than that." Felicity, "God, Oliver you are the only person this planet that considers the truth complicated.  Just to be clear, I don't care that you have a child. I can not believe you have a child that you didn't tell me about. I care that you lied to me just now." Oliver, "Do you know that my whole world is emploding. I think I'm entitled to process that for a minute on my own." Felicity, " You some how managed to go to CCPD and track down Barry. You didn't keep it to yourself. You kept it from me. When were you planning on telling me." Oliver, "I don't know." Felicity, "If you loved me, if you trusted me telling me this wouldn't be such a burden, it would be a relief.  But you don't trust me, you never will. How can I be with someone who doesn't trust me?" (Sorry that I put all the quotes in one paragraph I didn't want to eat up the whole page)

 

Oliver doesn't answer her. Felicity walks off.

 

That's the whole scene.

 

I'm with Felicity and I don't see where she said anything mean.  Oliver hid the plan to catch Slade from her,  she rolled with it. Oliver didn't share the plan to get Ra's with her, Felicity forgave him. I can't really fault her for being done with his lies. When he had chances in this episode to tell her to prove he has changed he failed.

 

[Trini]

3. This is more of a Flash question, but if Barry can still run fast enough to change time, then why aren't he and Zoom changing time when they go running round and round especially since Barry is chasing him but is complaining that his top speed isn't enough????

 

 

He can't control it. (Yet?) And speed isn't the only factor that triggers a time jump. The other factors are undefined at the moment.

[AyChihuahua]

I have a lot of family law expertise. While we all know Oliver's heart is in the right place, she would have a great case to keep him away from his 9-year old son in court without a heckuvalot of supervised visits first, as well as drug and psychological testing. Frustrating perhaps since he's resurrected bio dad - but true.

He would AT LEAST get supervised visitation, which would be plenty.  It's not like he's looking to take full custody.  But he's an idiot, so who cares about him.

I feel you. It's like they forgot about season 4 Oliver, and smashed pre-pilot Ollie and season 3 Oliver together. I can only defend Oliver so far, because I'm frustrated.  But then I looked at who wrote the episode and I realize that LOL, it was Marc and (surprisingly) Greg Berlanti. So.... 

Berlanti created Everwood, which had a baby mama storyline that was, believe it or not, almost as bad as this one.

 

Oliver doesn't even care when Felicity lies to him - (see 4.01) - which is also an issue but at least he's not a hypocrite I guess. But I think Felicity cares when he lies to her. Each successive lie has had some holdover effects. This one clearly will as well.

Her lies in 4.01 were basically white lies.  She was electronically helping their team occasionally...other than missing a boat it didn't affect him.  His lie involves something HUGE and that totally affects her, too.  

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

I have a lot of family law expertise. While we all know Oliver's heart is in the right place, she would have a great case to keep him away from his 9-year old son in court without a heckuvalot of supervised visits first, as well as drug and psychological testing. Frustrating perhaps since he's resurrected bio dad - but true.

Yes, biological parents have rights, but the first rule is best interests of the child. To the outside world, I'm not sure he's a stable, well-adjusted, responsible adult who would come off very well in a court of law. (I'm not sure he's even that for all of us who love and root for him.)

 

It's not like he actually will have a better relationship with the kid as it is or more interaction.  They could sit and play action figures with the case worker hanging out just as easily.  They'd only do supervised visits until they are comfortable with him around the kid.  As long as he didn't endanger him, he'd be fine. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm with Felicity and I don't see where she said anything mean.  Oliver hid the plan to catch Slade from her,  she rolled with it. Oliver didn't share the plan to get Ra's with her, Felicity forgave him. I can't really fault her for being done with his lies. When he had chances in this episode to tell her to prove he has changed he failed.

I'm with you, and I really don't understand this idea that Felicity's issues with him trusting her came out of nowhere.  That's a big part of what S3 was about.  He lied to her and didn't trust her with his plan.  Both Felicity and Diggle were really mad at him for it.  The word "trust" was specifically used.  So this is a pattern with him, and she has absolutely every reason to be angry.  And he's doing it AGAIN and it's going to be worse because it'll be more and more and more lies.  She's going to dump him, HARD, and he's going to deserve it.

 

I'm trying to figure out the timeline changing having consequences thing.  Maybe she'll get hurt because she'll stalk off alone when she finds out?  In general that's the only way I can see her not knowing about the kid causing her physical harm: her getting mad and not being safe because she goes to get some air or some such.

[blixie]

It was only a question of when Oliver would do dumb shit he's learned 575 times not to do. Trite hacks. 

 

The only thing I got out of the crossovers was that I'm kinda shipping Speedy and The Flash. 

[Carrie Ann]

I didn't really mind the first fight, although it progressed WAY too quickly and I don't think the S4 Felicity would have jumped to that place so fast. But I didn't actually see it as a breakup? I saw it as a major problem and they'd have to come back to it after the battle to talk about it more and then...yeah, maybe they would have broken up. Hard to say. But four sentences and walking away? After all that time together? Nah. So add that to the pile of stupid, that the Breakup Which Was Foretold didn't actually occur.

[quarks]

Having thought a bit more, I really think this Oliver/Felicity thing would have worked better if:

 

1. As the AVClub review just correctly pointed out, this Samantha thing hadn't been sorta dangling for two years now, and wasn't something from before the island.

 

2. Each scene had been given just one or two more beats: Felicity saying that first Oliver didn't trust her about the LoA last year, and now this, and that they are supposed to be partners; extending the conversation between Barry and Oliver to make it clear what Oliver's choices were: a, staying out of the kid's life, b, getting involved in the kid's life, and telling Felicity about this, even though the last time he told Felicity about this, they had a huge fight, which ended up distracting him, which got people killed, or c, getting involved and not telling Felicity about this. 

 

Without those beats, this took away focus from what I think the main issue was supposed to be: Oliver's twin fears that if he told Felicity a) she would break up with him, b) everyone would die, since those are the things that happened in the original timeline. 

 

Unfortunately, since this all happened in an episode that was trying to set up another show, we really didn't get those beats. And it's a pity because otherwise, I liked the episode. Even the terrible Egyptian sets.

[KenyaJ]

I didn't really mind the first fight, although it progressed WAY too quickly and I don't think the S4 Felicity would have jumped to that place so fast. But I didn't actually see it as a breakup? I saw it as a major problem and they'd have to come back to it after the battle to talk about it more and then...yeah, maybe they would have broken up. Hard to say. But four sentences and walking away? After all that time together? Nah. So add that to the pile of stupid, that the Breakup Which Was Foretold didn't actually occur.

 

Yeah, I didn't think it was a breakup either. Just a moderate fight that required a cooling off period and a lot of explaining later.

[paigow]

They could sit and play action figures with the case worker hanging out just as easily.  They'd only do supervised visits until they are comfortable with him around the kid.

It could never be as awkward and painful as what Colin Farrell endured in True Detective S2... Could it?

[apinknightmare]

I didn't really mind the first fight, although it progressed WAY too quickly and I don't think the S4 Felicity would have jumped to that place so fast. But I didn't actually see it as a breakup? 

 

I didn't either. It seemed like Felicity just needed some time to think and cool off.

[bijoux]

I didn't really mind the first fight, although it progressed WAY too quickly and I don't think the S4 Felicity would have jumped to that place so fast. But I didn't actually see it as a breakup? I saw it as a major problem and they'd have to come back to it after the battle to talk about it more and then...yeah, maybe they would have broken up. Hard to say. But four sentences and walking away? After all that time together? Nah. So add that to the pile of stupid, that the Breakup Which Was Foretold didn't actually occur.

  

Yeah, I didn't think it was a

breakup either. Just a moderate fight that required a cooling off period and a lot of explaining later.

It didn't look like a breakup to me either but boy, did it escalate quickly. It just went from 15 to 150 in two seconds and my head was spinning a bit. They were both at least partly in the right. Felicity with wanting him to involve her, not Barry, and Oliver needing a beat or two to process. But they had to go through it quickly, I guess to get dead and then dropped into a more perverse timeline.

[Trini]

... people on Twitter start asking about the donkey in the background of your shot (which, to be fair, was more interesting than what was happening in the foreground of that shot, ...

 

Me: What is that?

Is that a donkey?

That's a donkey!

What was it doing??

Why is there donkey back there?

They can afford to have random donkeys in the background of shots?

Where did they film this??

[wonderwall]

LOL! This made me laugh so hard!

Right now, I hate being an Olicity fan. But, it must be even worse to be a Laurel fan tonight. She was as inoffensive as possible tonight, and people are still clamoring for her death. It's like, "I hate Oliver's stupid, lying face forever! He doesn't deserve Felicity. Baby Mama is a horrible, lying bitch. Laurel better die!" ;-)

We have a few loyal LL/BC/KC fans here, and they're good sports to put up with so much crap from us.

 

Lol kudos to the Laurle fans who deal with us constantly :p 

IDK if any of this will make you feel better. But they caught the "Butt Clench" on screen :p

 

[Trini]

 

It didn't look like a breakup to me either but boy, did it escalate quickly.

 

It was Felicity's use of the word 'never' (holy superlatives, Batman!) that made me think breakup.

[bijoux]

Oh. My. God. David Ramsey was right. It's hilarious. I didn't think it would be SO noticeable.

[statsgirl]

So no one on the show thought anything wrong with Barry stealing something from the museum? It's not like they could replace it afterwards.

is that yes, Felicity gets mad and says mean things, but she is not without empathy and she is not selfish.  Her reaction was very Laurel - she made it all. about. her. 

I disagree -- she made it about Oliver keeping secrets and lying to her.  This was what broke them up last season when he kept secrets from her and Diggle and pushed them away.

 

She thought they were all over that, that they were honest with each other and a team, and then she finds out that he chose to lie to her again.  More than that, he asked Barry to lie to her too.

 

 

I didn't either. It seemed like Felicity just needed some time to think and cool off.

Just like 3x12 last season after the fight in the alley. Which was MG's favorite Olicity scene from last season so why am I surprised we got this?

 

I wish Oliver had the maturity he wants to have. He's this man who keeps things in or peaces out cause he doesn't handle emotional stress. He's very weak emotionally. He definitely isn't ready to be someone's fiancé. I really really really hope that doesn't happen anytime soon. Definitely no maturity here. Oliver allows his fears and enotional stress to rule his decisions. No growth at all.

Oliver is back to allowing others or stress to decide his life just to keep angst low but inadvertently making it sky rocket. Like with Laurel and the apartment-It's the baby mama now.

Oliver steps out when stressed. Rather it's cheating or lying, he still isn't fully present in his relationship.

He really isn't in a place to be in an engagement much less a marriage.;

But sadly, I don't see these writers willing to let him grow up through that.  Also, now that we've seen he's really not ready for an engagement, probably that's what they'll do next, put him in one..

 

 

Did Moira never once check to see if that check had been cashed? She would've put an alert on that check, no one can tell me otherwise. Don't make Queen B Moira an incompetent villain, show. come on. 

Really gives you a sense of just how much money they've got if her bank book doesn't balance to the tune of $1 million and she just lets it go.

 

Plus, no one is talking about the spin-off this episode was supposed to help launch. They've managed to mostly detail any buzz about the two characters that this episode helped introduce. Though come to think of it, maybe that's why.

Yep.  They scored a goal into their own nets with this one.

[Password]

It reminded me of Diggle telling Oliver he doesn't trust.

Hahahaha we just needed Felicity to say "you never loved me". Icing on the cake.

[quarks]

Me: What is that?

Is that a donkey?

That's a donkey!

What was it doing??

Why is there donkey back there?

They can afford to have random donkeys in the background of shots?

Where did they film this??

 

I was totally distracted by the donkey. At first, it was just, oooh, donkey.

 

And then the donkey started to climb through the fence and people started tweeting about it and suddenly, my whole focus was on the donkey. 

 

ETA: I'm pretty sure that the donkey just lives there normally and Arrow figured it would be a nice touch to have a donkey in the background, which was all great until the donkey climbed through the fence and I wanted to know where it was going. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by quarks